Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-07 Thread Tim Sutton 
Hi Sandro

> On 7 Aug 2019, at 10:36, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 12:44:24AM +0100, Tim Sutton wrote:
> 
>> I guess I probably am over-interpreting this paragraph from Sandro:
>> 
>> "Latest Gitea release (1.9.0) introduced support for also migrating
>> issues/pull-requests/labels/milestone/wiki/releases from a github
>> project. I'd be happy to try that out if anyone can give me
>> credentials to hit the API to do so (drop me a note).”
>> 
>> Sandro: sure we can set you up with credentials if you just want to test it 
>> out and show us what it looks like….
> 
> I just want to test this new feature of Gitea.
> OSGeo isn't running a recent-enough version to have this, but
> gitea.com is. I didn't verify, but following the "hosted by"
> link on the bottom, it looks like being in Asia:
> https://www.didiyun.com/

Ok cool - pop us a note telling me what you need when you are ready to test and 
I or Marco B can help.

Thanks!

Regards

Tim


> 
> --strk;

—









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Co-founder: Kartoza
Ex Project chair: QGIS.org

Visit http://kartoza.com  to find out about open source:

Desktop GIS programming services
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-07 Thread Sandro Santilli 
On Wed, Aug 07, 2019 at 12:44:24AM +0100, Tim Sutton wrote:

> I guess I probably am over-interpreting this paragraph from Sandro:
> 
> "Latest Gitea release (1.9.0) introduced support for also migrating
> issues/pull-requests/labels/milestone/wiki/releases from a github
> project. I'd be happy to try that out if anyone can give me
> credentials to hit the API to do so (drop me a note).”
> 
> Sandro: sure we can set you up with credentials if you just want to test it 
> out and show us what it looks like….

I just want to test this new feature of Gitea.
OSGeo isn't running a recent-enough version to have this, but
gitea.com is. I didn't verify, but following the "hosted by"
link on the bottom, it looks like being in Asia:
https://www.didiyun.com/

--strk;
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-07 Thread Marco Bernasocchi 
Hi

On 06.08.19 22:42, Tim Sutton wrote:
> Hi
>
>> On 2 Aug 2019, at 05:45, Paolo Cavallini > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi all.
>> I'm often unhappy when I'm right.
>
> In which particular aspect are you right?
I guess about not being fan of moving to gh...
>
>
>> Although the practical impact this time is low, I would take this as
>> a clear signal (after the loomio move, and I expect more) that we
>> have to change our strategy,
>> keeping our infrastructure as simple as possible and avoiding
>> wherever possible to rely on proprietary, non free, stuff.
>
> Loomio is FOSS and we benefited from free hosting. We could have
> hosted it ourselves but we chose to not divert our minimal free time
> to managing more infrastructure.
which is something I think we should always strive to (to be clear not I
mean we should not manage even more infrastructure).
> I think it is normal in life that things change and we need to adapt
> as they do, really it isn’t a train smash IMHO.
> GitHub impact is more conceptual than actual as has been shown in this
> thread.
To empathize this even more, let's remember that it is _not_ github, it
is trade sanctions by the US, so it is more a question of where we host,
than bad bad github...
> So sure, lets have a plan B in place, that was always the long game
> plan for our code etc. But lets do take our time and do it right and
> in a considered way. We reached agreement in A Coruna to use GitHub
> for issue tracking and I don’t think it is constructive to turn around
> a few months later and try to roll back on what has been years of
> painful and protracted community negotiations and planning to get to
> where we are now.
and as usual, Tim I can't agree more with you.
>  IMHO moving to GitHub issues has been a great improvement for the
> project - and thanks again especially to Jorge and friends who did all
> the heavy lifting!

That is also the feeling I have and again thanks Jorge and all for the
great work


Cheers

Mar

>
> Regards
>
> Tim
>
> —
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Tim Sutton*
>
> *Co-founder:* Kartoza
> *Ex Project chair:* QGIS.org 
>
> Visit http://kartoza.com  to find out about open
> source:
>
> Desktop GIS programming services
> Geospatial web development
> GIS Training
> Consulting Services
>
> *Skype*: timlinux 
> *IRC:* timlinux on #qgis at freenode.net 
>
> I'd love to connect. Here's my calendar link
>  to make finding time easy.
>
>
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-06 Thread Tim Sutton 
Hi

> On 7 Aug 2019, at 00:37, Nyall Dawson  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 09:08, Tim Sutton  wrote:
>> 
>> /me is googling for cloud hosting services in North Korea :-P
>> 
>> Sandro's comments about migrating issues to gitea make me think he has more 
>> in mind than a simple mirror of the code….
>> 
>> If we want a mirror surely it is easier to simply have a small hetzner 
>> server running a public read only git repo? No objection from me to have 
>> mirrors btw. Also isn’t this something we can just leave up to interested 
>> community members to work on? Nobody is complaining and it doesn’t seem 
>> useful to spend time and effort on something nobody is asking for.
> 
> I was under the impression that Sandro WAS volunteering to do this?

“This” = host a simple Git mirror (+1 from me if he is, and our disenfranchised 
nation friends can access it)?
Or
“This” = full migration of GitHub issues to gitea (-1 from me unless we have a 
very clear understanding of what we will land up with at the end of the process 
and there is full community buy-in)?

I guess I probably am over-interpreting this paragraph from Sandro:

"Latest Gitea release (1.9.0) introduced support for also migrating
issues/pull-requests/labels/milestone/wiki/releases from a github
project. I'd be happy to try that out if anyone can give me
credentials to hit the API to do so (drop me a note).”

Sandro: sure we can set you up with credentials if you just want to test it out 
and show us what it looks like….


Regards

Tim


—









Tim Sutton

Co-founder: Kartoza
Ex Project chair: QGIS.org

Visit http://kartoza.com  to find out about open source:

Desktop GIS programming services
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-06 Thread Nyall Dawson 
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 09:08, Tim Sutton  wrote:
>
> /me is googling for cloud hosting services in North Korea :-P
>
> Sandro's comments about migrating issues to gitea make me think he has more 
> in mind than a simple mirror of the code….
>
> If we want a mirror surely it is easier to simply have a small hetzner server 
> running a public read only git repo? No objection from me to have mirrors 
> btw. Also isn’t this something we can just leave up to interested community 
> members to work on? Nobody is complaining and it doesn’t seem useful to spend 
> time and effort on something nobody is asking for.

I was under the impression that Sandro WAS volunteering to do this?

Nyall


>
> Regards
>
> Tim
>
> On 6 Aug 2019, at 23:14, Nyall Dawson  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 00:40, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 01, 2019 at 02:26:04PM +1000, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>
> I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
> repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
> https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
>
>
> Latest Gitea release (1.9.0) introduced support for also migrating
> issues/pull-requests/labels/milestone/wiki/releases from a github
> project. I'd be happy to try that out if anyone can give me
> credentials to hit the API to do so (drop me a note).
>
>
> Sandro - can you confirm that osgeo infrastructure isn't subject to
> the same trade restrictions as github and gitlab.com?
>
> My understanding is that it WOULD be, given that osgeo is a US based
> organisation. And if so, osgeo isn't a solution here, and we need
> something based in a less early-19th-century region of the world.
>
> Nyall
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> —
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tim Sutton
>
> Co-founder: Kartoza
> Ex Project chair: QGIS.org
>
> Visit http://kartoza.com to find out about open source:
>
> Desktop GIS programming services
> Geospatial web development
> GIS Training
> Consulting Services
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>
> I'd love to connect. Here's my calendar link to make finding time easy.
>
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-06 Thread Tim Sutton 
/me is googling for cloud hosting services in North Korea :-P

Sandro's comments about migrating issues to gitea make me think he has more in 
mind than a simple mirror of the code….

If we want a mirror surely it is easier to simply have a small hetzner server 
running a public read only git repo? No objection from me to have mirrors btw. 
Also isn’t this something we can just leave up to interested community members 
to work on? Nobody is complaining and it doesn’t seem useful to spend time and 
effort on something nobody is asking for.

Regards

Tim

> On 6 Aug 2019, at 23:14, Nyall Dawson  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 00:40, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 01, 2019 at 02:26:04PM +1000, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>> 
>>> I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
>>> repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
>>> https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
>> 
>> Latest Gitea release (1.9.0) introduced support for also migrating
>> issues/pull-requests/labels/milestone/wiki/releases from a github
>> project. I'd be happy to try that out if anyone can give me
>> credentials to hit the API to do so (drop me a note).
> 
> Sandro - can you confirm that osgeo infrastructure isn't subject to
> the same trade restrictions as github and gitlab.com?
> 
> My understanding is that it WOULD be, given that osgeo is a US based
> organisation. And if so, osgeo isn't a solution here, and we need
> something based in a less early-19th-century region of the world.
> 
> Nyall
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Ex Project chair: QGIS.org

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Desktop GIS programming services
Geospatial web development
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Consulting Services

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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-06 Thread Nyall Dawson 
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 00:40, Sandro Santilli  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Aug 01, 2019 at 02:26:04PM +1000, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>
> > I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
> > repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
> > https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
>
> Latest Gitea release (1.9.0) introduced support for also migrating
> issues/pull-requests/labels/milestone/wiki/releases from a github
> project. I'd be happy to try that out if anyone can give me
> credentials to hit the API to do so (drop me a note).

Sandro - can you confirm that osgeo infrastructure isn't subject to
the same trade restrictions as github and gitlab.com?

My understanding is that it WOULD be, given that osgeo is a US based
organisation. And if so, osgeo isn't a solution here, and we need
something based in a less early-19th-century region of the world.

Nyall
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-06 Thread Nyall Dawson 
On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 06:42, Tim Sutton  wrote:
>
> GitHub impact is more conceptual than actual as has been shown in this 
> thread. So sure, lets have a plan B in place, that was always the long game 
> plan for our code etc. But lets do take our time and do it right and in a 
> considered way. We reached agreement in A Coruna to use GitHub for issue 
> tracking and I don’t think it is constructive to turn around a few months 
> later and try to roll back on what has been years of painful and protracted 
> community negotiations and planning to get to where we are now.  IMHO moving 
> to GitHub issues has been a great improvement for the project - and thanks 
> again especially to Jorge and friends who did all the heavy lifting!

I agree. But I think what Sandro was proposing was just a read-only
mirror of the issues on gitea. Which I'd be totally in favor of.

Nyall
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-06 Thread Tim Sutton 
Hi

> On 2 Aug 2019, at 05:45, Paolo Cavallini  wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> I'm often unhappy when I'm right.

In which particular aspect are you right?


> Although the practical impact this time is low, I would take this as a clear 
> signal (after the loomio move, and I expect more) that we have to change our 
> strategy,
> keeping our infrastructure as simple as possible and avoiding wherever 
> possible to rely on proprietary, non free, stuff.

Loomio is FOSS and we benefited from free hosting. We could have hosted it 
ourselves but we chose to not divert our minimal free time to managing more 
infrastructure. I think it is normal in life that things change and we need to 
adapt as they do, really it isn’t a train smash IMHO.

GitHub impact is more conceptual than actual as has been shown in this thread. 
So sure, lets have a plan B in place, that was always the long game plan for 
our code etc. But lets do take our time and do it right and in a considered 
way. We reached agreement in A Coruna to use GitHub for issue tracking and I 
don’t think it is constructive to turn around a few months later and try to 
roll back on what has been years of painful and protracted community 
negotiations and planning to get to where we are now.  IMHO moving to GitHub 
issues has been a great improvement for the project - and thanks again 
especially to Jorge and friends who did all the heavy lifting!

Regards

Tim

—









Tim Sutton

Co-founder: Kartoza
Ex Project chair: QGIS.org

Visit http://kartoza.com  to find out about open source:

Desktop GIS programming services
Geospatial web development
GIS Training
Consulting Services

Skype: timlinux 
IRC: timlinux on #qgis at freenode.net

I'd love to connect. Here's my calendar link  to 
make finding time easy.

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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-06 Thread Sandro Santilli 
On Thu, Aug 01, 2019 at 02:26:04PM +1000, Nyall Dawson wrote:

> I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
> repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
> https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate

Latest Gitea release (1.9.0) introduced support for also migrating
issues/pull-requests/labels/milestone/wiki/releases from a github
project. I'd be happy to try that out if anyone can give me
credentials to hit the API to do so (drop me a note).

Release announcement: https://blog.gitea.io/2019/07/gitea-1.9.0-is-released/
Open platform running that version: https://gitea.com (I already
created a QGIS organization there, ping me if you want permissions)

--strk;
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-01 Thread Alessandro Pasotti 
On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 6:45 AM Paolo Cavallini 
wrote:

> Hi all.
> I'm often unhappy when I'm right. Although the practical impact this time
> is low, I would take this as a clear signal (after the loomio move, and I
> expect more) that we have to change our strategy, keeping our
> infrastructure as simple as possible and avoiding wherever possible to rely
> on proprietary, non free, stuff.
> Cheers.
>

For what it's worth I totally agree with you Paolo.



>
> On 1 August 2019 11:32:14 CEST, Andreas Neumann 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ian,
>> Am 01.08.19 um 11:21 schrieb Ian Turton:
>>
>> I would suspect that switching to gitlab would not be sufficient as it is
>> still with in the USA and would be subject to the same restrictions. Also
>> if self-hosting we will need to make sure it outside the USA.
>>
>> Yes - our self-hosted infrastructure is in Germany.
>>
>> We are aware that gitlab is also hosted in the US.
>>
>> However, a self-hosted version of gitlab in our current infrastructure
>> adds a significant additional burden. That's why we need to discuss it
>> first, reach consensus and allocate resources for maintenance.
>>
>> As to China: this is kind of a "black hole" for us. China (and probably
>> also North Korea) are some of the very few countries where we have almost
>> no feedback on usage, have almost no income of donations and sponsorships,
>> etc. My assumption is that in China they just pirate ESRI software, or they
>> have some alternative GIS they programmed themselves.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>>
>> There is also a suggestion that China could be added to the list of
>> "banned" countries too.
>> https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/chinese-developers-fear-losing-open-source-tech-trade-war/article/3011463
>>   While
>> this article suggests that no open source code is affected
>> https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/github-says-chinese-developers-are-safe-export-restrictions/article/3012452
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 09:35, Andreas Neumann  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Thanks for bringing up this discussion.
>>>
>>> My personal opinion is that we should be worried by such development and
>>> should have a plan B for hosting our code.
>>>
>>> We certainly want QGIS and its source code to be available world wide,
>>> not just to parts of the world at the mercy of some governments and
>>> corporations.
>>>
>>> But the decision to move away from github should be discussed and voted
>>> on by the core devs and voting members because apparently it has a lot
>>> of implications and a lot of work went into the CI integration
>>> (according to some devs).
>>>
>>> We already have 10k € in the 2019 budget for github to gitlab (hosted or
>>> self hosted?) migration. This money would already be available this
>>> year, but first we need to have a plan and the support of the developer
>>> community to do this step. If this isn't enough, we can have additional
>>> budget in 2020.
>>>
>>> Greetings,
>>>
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 01.08.19 um 09:37 schrieb Vincent Picavet (ml):
>>> > Hi Nyall, all,
>>> >
>>> > On 01/08/2019 06:26, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>>> >> Well, I've got to say upfront that we WERE warned about the dangers of
>>> >> this happening by members of our community, and now the worst IS
>>> >> happening and Github has started blocking access to projects from
>>> >> certain regions.
>>> >>
>>> >> See https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/86154.html, but long story
>>> >> short, GitHub is now blocking users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran, North Korea
>>> >> and Syria from accessing its services to comply with U.S. trade
>>> >> control laws. I'm unsure if we're directly affected yet by this, but
>>> >> the wording on Github's notice is very vague: " GitHub MAY allow users
>>> >> in or ordinarily resident in countries and territories subject to U.S.
>>> >> sanctions to access CERTAIN free GitHub.com services for PERSONAL
>>> >> COMMUNICATIONS " (emphasis added by me).
>>> >>
>>> >> What can/should we do in response to this?
>>> > While the impact of this decision is still very minor for us right now,
>>> > as you say it is a very good illustration on how putting us in a vendor
>>> > lock-in situation is bad.
>>> >
>>> > I would say that it is not too late to re-work on a self-hosted GitLab
>>> > instance, which would be more future-proof. That would need a great
>>> deal
>>> > of efforts though, and would require specific funding for the
>>> > forthcoming non-funny tasks.
>>> >
>>> > At Oslandia, we would be willing to help, if it is the path chosen by
>>> > the community.
>>> >
>>> > A Git mirror would be great of course, but does not solve the full
>>> problem.
>>> >
>>> > And personally, this kind of attack against free information and
>>> > knowledge is a concern, for sure.
>>> >
>>> > Best regards,
>>> > Vincent
>>> >
>>> >> Note that it ALSO applies to gitlab.com, who are also subject to the
>>> >> same trade laws, so moving to gitlab ISN'T a possible solution (unless
>>> >> we self-host).
>>> >>
>>> >> I

Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-01 Thread Paolo Cavallini 
Hi all.
I'm often unhappy when I'm right. Although the practical impact this time is 
low, I would take this as a clear signal (after the loomio move, and I expect 
more) that we have to change our strategy, keeping our infrastructure as simple 
as possible and avoiding wherever possible to rely on proprietary, non free, 
stuff.
Cheers.

On 1 August 2019 11:32:14 CEST, Andreas Neumann  wrote:
>Hi Ian,
>
>Am 01.08.19 um 11:21 schrieb Ian Turton:
>> I would suspect that switching to gitlab would not be sufficient as
>it 
>> is still with in the USA and would be subject to the same 
>> restrictions. Also if self-hosting we will need to make sure it 
>> outside the USA.
>
>Yes - our self-hosted infrastructure is in Germany.
>
>We are aware that gitlab is also hosted in the US.
>
>However, a self-hosted version of gitlab in our current infrastructure 
>adds a significant additional burden. That's why we need to discuss it 
>first, reach consensus and allocate resources for maintenance.
>
>As to China: this is kind of a "black hole" for us. China (and probably
>
>also North Korea) are some of the very few countries where we have 
>almost no feedback on usage, have almost no income of donations and 
>sponsorships, etc. My assumption is that in China they just pirate ESRI
>
>software, or they have some alternative GIS they programmed themselves.
>
>Andreas
>
>>
>> There is also a suggestion that China could be added to the list of 
>> "banned" countries too. 
>>
>https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/chinese-developers-fear-losing-open-source-tech-trade-war/article/3011463
>  While
>
>> this article suggests that no open source code is affected 
>>
>https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/github-says-chinese-developers-are-safe-export-restrictions/article/3012452
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 09:35, Andreas Neumann > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Thanks for bringing up this discussion.
>>
>> My personal opinion is that we should be worried by such
>> development and
>> should have a plan B for hosting our code.
>>
>> We certainly want QGIS and its source code to be available world
>> wide,
>> not just to parts of the world at the mercy of some governments
>and
>> corporations.
>>
>> But the decision to move away from github should be discussed and
>> voted
>> on by the core devs and voting members because apparently it has
>a
>> lot
>> of implications and a lot of work went into the CI integration
>> (according to some devs).
>>
>> We already have 10k € in the 2019 budget for github to gitlab
>> (hosted or
>> self hosted?) migration. This money would already be available
>this
>> year, but first we need to have a plan and the support of the
>> developer
>> community to do this step. If this isn't enough, we can have
>> additional
>> budget in 2020.
>>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>>
>> Am 01.08.19 um 09:37 schrieb Vincent Picavet (ml):
>> > Hi Nyall, all,
>> >
>> > On 01/08/2019 06:26, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>> >> Well, I've got to say upfront that we WERE warned about the
>> dangers of
>> >> this happening by members of our community, and now the worst
>IS
>> >> happening and Github has started blocking access to projects
>from
>> >> certain regions.
>> >>
>> >> See https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/86154.html, but long
>story
>> >> short, GitHub is now blocking users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran,
>> North Korea
>> >> and Syria from accessing its services to comply with U.S.
>trade
>> >> control laws. I'm unsure if we're directly affected yet by
>> this, but
>> >> the wording on Github's notice is very vague: " GitHub MAY
>> allow users
>> >> in or ordinarily resident in countries and territories subject
>> to U.S.
>> >> sanctions to access CERTAIN free GitHub.com services for
>PERSONAL
>> >> COMMUNICATIONS " (emphasis added by me).
>> >>
>> >> What can/should we do in response to this?
>> > While the impact of this decision is still very minor for us
>> right now,
>> > as you say it is a very good illustration on how putting us in
>a
>> vendor
>> > lock-in situation is bad.
>> >
>> > I would say that it is not too late to re-work on a self-hosted
>> GitLab
>> > instance, which would be more future-proof. That would need a
>> great deal
>> > of efforts though, and would require specific funding for the
>> > forthcoming non-funny tasks.
>> >
>> > At Oslandia, we would be willing to help, if it is the path
>> chosen by
>> > the community.
>> >
>> > A Git mirror would be great of course, but does not solve the
>> full problem.
>> >
>> > And personally, this kind of attack against free information
>and
>> > knowledge is a concern, for sure.
>> >
>> > Best regards,
>> > Vincent
>> >
>> >> Note

Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-01 Thread Andreas Neumann 

Hi Ian,

Am 01.08.19 um 11:21 schrieb Ian Turton:
I would suspect that switching to gitlab would not be sufficient as it 
is still with in the USA and would be subject to the same 
restrictions. Also if self-hosting we will need to make sure it 
outside the USA.


Yes - our self-hosted infrastructure is in Germany.

We are aware that gitlab is also hosted in the US.

However, a self-hosted version of gitlab in our current infrastructure 
adds a significant additional burden. That's why we need to discuss it 
first, reach consensus and allocate resources for maintenance.


As to China: this is kind of a "black hole" for us. China (and probably 
also North Korea) are some of the very few countries where we have 
almost no feedback on usage, have almost no income of donations and 
sponsorships, etc. My assumption is that in China they just pirate ESRI 
software, or they have some alternative GIS they programmed themselves.


Andreas



There is also a suggestion that China could be added to the list of 
"banned" countries too. 
https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/chinese-developers-fear-losing-open-source-tech-trade-war/article/3011463  While 
this article suggests that no open source code is affected 
https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/github-says-chinese-developers-are-safe-export-restrictions/article/3012452


Ian

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 09:35, Andreas Neumann > wrote:


Hi,

Thanks for bringing up this discussion.

My personal opinion is that we should be worried by such
development and
should have a plan B for hosting our code.

We certainly want QGIS and its source code to be available world
wide,
not just to parts of the world at the mercy of some governments and
corporations.

But the decision to move away from github should be discussed and
voted
on by the core devs and voting members because apparently it has a
lot
of implications and a lot of work went into the CI integration
(according to some devs).

We already have 10k € in the 2019 budget for github to gitlab
(hosted or
self hosted?) migration. This money would already be available this
year, but first we need to have a plan and the support of the
developer
community to do this step. If this isn't enough, we can have
additional
budget in 2020.

Greetings,

Andreas


Am 01.08.19 um 09:37 schrieb Vincent Picavet (ml):
> Hi Nyall, all,
>
> On 01/08/2019 06:26, Nyall Dawson wrote:
>> Well, I've got to say upfront that we WERE warned about the
dangers of
>> this happening by members of our community, and now the worst IS
>> happening and Github has started blocking access to projects from
>> certain regions.
>>
>> See https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/86154.html, but long story
>> short, GitHub is now blocking users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran,
North Korea
>> and Syria from accessing its services to comply with U.S. trade
>> control laws. I'm unsure if we're directly affected yet by
this, but
>> the wording on Github's notice is very vague: " GitHub MAY
allow users
>> in or ordinarily resident in countries and territories subject
to U.S.
>> sanctions to access CERTAIN free GitHub.com services for PERSONAL
>> COMMUNICATIONS " (emphasis added by me).
>>
>> What can/should we do in response to this?
> While the impact of this decision is still very minor for us
right now,
> as you say it is a very good illustration on how putting us in a
vendor
> lock-in situation is bad.
>
> I would say that it is not too late to re-work on a self-hosted
GitLab
> instance, which would be more future-proof. That would need a
great deal
> of efforts though, and would require specific funding for the
> forthcoming non-funny tasks.
>
> At Oslandia, we would be willing to help, if it is the path
chosen by
> the community.
>
> A Git mirror would be great of course, but does not solve the
full problem.
>
> And personally, this kind of attack against free information and
> knowledge is a concern, for sure.
>
> Best regards,
> Vincent
>
>> Note that it ALSO applies to gitlab.com ,
who are also subject to the
>> same trade laws, so moving to gitlab ISN'T a possible solution
(unless
>> we self-host).
>>
>> I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
>> repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
>> https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
>> (unless osgeo is also affected by the same ruling, which they could
>> easily be, given that they are US based too) . An official mirror
>> would at least ensure that users in these regions can access the
>> existing source.
>>
>> Does this development concern anyone else?
>

Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-01 Thread Ian Turton 
I would suspect that switching to gitlab would not be sufficient as it is
still with in the USA and would be subject to the same restrictions. Also
if self-hosting we will need to make sure it outside the USA.

There is also a suggestion that China could be added to the list of
"banned" countries too.
https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/chinese-developers-fear-losing-open-source-tech-trade-war/article/3011463
 While
this article suggests that no open source code is affected
https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/github-says-chinese-developers-are-safe-export-restrictions/article/3012452

Ian

On Thu, 1 Aug 2019 at 09:35, Andreas Neumann  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks for bringing up this discussion.
>
> My personal opinion is that we should be worried by such development and
> should have a plan B for hosting our code.
>
> We certainly want QGIS and its source code to be available world wide,
> not just to parts of the world at the mercy of some governments and
> corporations.
>
> But the decision to move away from github should be discussed and voted
> on by the core devs and voting members because apparently it has a lot
> of implications and a lot of work went into the CI integration
> (according to some devs).
>
> We already have 10k € in the 2019 budget for github to gitlab (hosted or
> self hosted?) migration. This money would already be available this
> year, but first we need to have a plan and the support of the developer
> community to do this step. If this isn't enough, we can have additional
> budget in 2020.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Andreas
>
>
> Am 01.08.19 um 09:37 schrieb Vincent Picavet (ml):
> > Hi Nyall, all,
> >
> > On 01/08/2019 06:26, Nyall Dawson wrote:
> >> Well, I've got to say upfront that we WERE warned about the dangers of
> >> this happening by members of our community, and now the worst IS
> >> happening and Github has started blocking access to projects from
> >> certain regions.
> >>
> >> See https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/86154.html, but long story
> >> short, GitHub is now blocking users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran, North Korea
> >> and Syria from accessing its services to comply with U.S. trade
> >> control laws. I'm unsure if we're directly affected yet by this, but
> >> the wording on Github's notice is very vague: " GitHub MAY allow users
> >> in or ordinarily resident in countries and territories subject to U.S.
> >> sanctions to access CERTAIN free GitHub.com services for PERSONAL
> >> COMMUNICATIONS " (emphasis added by me).
> >>
> >> What can/should we do in response to this?
> > While the impact of this decision is still very minor for us right now,
> > as you say it is a very good illustration on how putting us in a vendor
> > lock-in situation is bad.
> >
> > I would say that it is not too late to re-work on a self-hosted GitLab
> > instance, which would be more future-proof. That would need a great deal
> > of efforts though, and would require specific funding for the
> > forthcoming non-funny tasks.
> >
> > At Oslandia, we would be willing to help, if it is the path chosen by
> > the community.
> >
> > A Git mirror would be great of course, but does not solve the full
> problem.
> >
> > And personally, this kind of attack against free information and
> > knowledge is a concern, for sure.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Vincent
> >
> >> Note that it ALSO applies to gitlab.com, who are also subject to the
> >> same trade laws, so moving to gitlab ISN'T a possible solution (unless
> >> we self-host).
> >>
> >> I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
> >> repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
> >> https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
> >> (unless osgeo is also affected by the same ruling, which they could
> >> easily be, given that they are US based too) . An official mirror
> >> would at least ensure that users in these regions can access the
> >> existing source.
> >>
> >> Does this development concern anyone else?
> >>
> >> Nyall
> >> ___
> >> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> >> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> >> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> >>
> > ___
> > QGIS-Developer mailing list
> > QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> > List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> ___
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-- 
Ian Turton
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-01 Thread Andreas Neumann 

Hi,

Thanks for bringing up this discussion.

My personal opinion is that we should be worried by such development and 
should have a plan B for hosting our code.


We certainly want QGIS and its source code to be available world wide, 
not just to parts of the world at the mercy of some governments and 
corporations.


But the decision to move away from github should be discussed and voted 
on by the core devs and voting members because apparently it has a lot 
of implications and a lot of work went into the CI integration 
(according to some devs).


We already have 10k € in the 2019 budget for github to gitlab (hosted or 
self hosted?) migration. This money would already be available this 
year, but first we need to have a plan and the support of the developer 
community to do this step. If this isn't enough, we can have additional 
budget in 2020.


Greetings,

Andreas


Am 01.08.19 um 09:37 schrieb Vincent Picavet (ml):

Hi Nyall, all,

On 01/08/2019 06:26, Nyall Dawson wrote:

Well, I've got to say upfront that we WERE warned about the dangers of
this happening by members of our community, and now the worst IS
happening and Github has started blocking access to projects from
certain regions.

See https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/86154.html, but long story
short, GitHub is now blocking users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran, North Korea
and Syria from accessing its services to comply with U.S. trade
control laws. I'm unsure if we're directly affected yet by this, but
the wording on Github's notice is very vague: " GitHub MAY allow users
in or ordinarily resident in countries and territories subject to U.S.
sanctions to access CERTAIN free GitHub.com services for PERSONAL
COMMUNICATIONS " (emphasis added by me).

What can/should we do in response to this?

While the impact of this decision is still very minor for us right now,
as you say it is a very good illustration on how putting us in a vendor
lock-in situation is bad.

I would say that it is not too late to re-work on a self-hosted GitLab
instance, which would be more future-proof. That would need a great deal
of efforts though, and would require specific funding for the
forthcoming non-funny tasks.

At Oslandia, we would be willing to help, if it is the path chosen by
the community.

A Git mirror would be great of course, but does not solve the full problem.

And personally, this kind of attack against free information and
knowledge is a concern, for sure.

Best regards,
Vincent


Note that it ALSO applies to gitlab.com, who are also subject to the
same trade laws, so moving to gitlab ISN'T a possible solution (unless
we self-host).

I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
(unless osgeo is also affected by the same ruling, which they could
easily be, given that they are US based too) . An official mirror
would at least ensure that users in these regions can access the
existing source.

Does this development concern anyone else?

Nyall
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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-08-01 Thread Vincent Picavet (ml) 
Hi Nyall, all,

On 01/08/2019 06:26, Nyall Dawson wrote:
> Well, I've got to say upfront that we WERE warned about the dangers of
> this happening by members of our community, and now the worst IS
> happening and Github has started blocking access to projects from
> certain regions.
> 
> See https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/86154.html, but long story
> short, GitHub is now blocking users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran, North Korea
> and Syria from accessing its services to comply with U.S. trade
> control laws. I'm unsure if we're directly affected yet by this, but
> the wording on Github's notice is very vague: " GitHub MAY allow users
> in or ordinarily resident in countries and territories subject to U.S.
> sanctions to access CERTAIN free GitHub.com services for PERSONAL
> COMMUNICATIONS " (emphasis added by me).
> 
> What can/should we do in response to this?

While the impact of this decision is still very minor for us right now,
as you say it is a very good illustration on how putting us in a vendor
lock-in situation is bad.

I would say that it is not too late to re-work on a self-hosted GitLab
instance, which would be more future-proof. That would need a great deal
of efforts though, and would require specific funding for the
forthcoming non-funny tasks.

At Oslandia, we would be willing to help, if it is the path chosen by
the community.

A Git mirror would be great of course, but does not solve the full problem.

And personally, this kind of attack against free information and
knowledge is a concern, for sure.

Best regards,
Vincent

> 
> Note that it ALSO applies to gitlab.com, who are also subject to the
> same trade laws, so moving to gitlab ISN'T a possible solution (unless
> we self-host).
> 
> I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
> repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
> https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
> (unless osgeo is also affected by the same ruling, which they could
> easily be, given that they are US based too) . An official mirror
> would at least ensure that users in these regions can access the
> existing source.
> 
> Does this development concern anyone else?
> 
> Nyall
> ___
> QGIS-Developer mailing list
> QGIS-Developer@lists.osgeo.org
> List info: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/qgis-developer
> 

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Re: [QGIS-Developer] On github, gitlab, and imperialist nations screwing us all over...

2019-07-31 Thread Nathan Woodrow 
Hey Nyall,

>From my understanding, it is only private repos (which we have none) and
nothing open source and the public which means it really shouldn't affect
us in any way.

Providing a mirror isn't a bad thing anyway, but I don't think this move
affects us really here.  A lot of places have networks blocking access to
stuff like GitHub anyway so might not be bad to have a mirror to help those
people.

- Nathan



On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 2:26 PM Nyall Dawson  wrote:

> Hi list,
>
> Well, I've got to say upfront that we WERE warned about the dangers of
> this happening by members of our community, and now the worst IS
> happening and Github has started blocking access to projects from
> certain regions.
>
> See https://www.linuxinsider.com/story/86154.html, but long story
> short, GitHub is now blocking users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran, North Korea
> and Syria from accessing its services to comply with U.S. trade
> control laws. I'm unsure if we're directly affected yet by this, but
> the wording on Github's notice is very vague: " GitHub MAY allow users
> in or ordinarily resident in countries and territories subject to U.S.
> sanctions to access CERTAIN free GitHub.com services for PERSONAL
> COMMUNICATIONS " (emphasis added by me).
>
> What can/should we do in response to this?
>
> Note that it ALSO applies to gitlab.com, who are also subject to the
> same trade laws, so moving to gitlab ISN'T a possible solution (unless
> we self-host).
>
> I think at the least we could/should endorse an official, read-only
> repo mirror which isn't affected by the trade laws, e.g.
> https://git.osgeo.org/gitea/qgis/QGIS would be a great candidate
> (unless osgeo is also affected by the same ruling, which they could
> easily be, given that they are US based too) . An official mirror
> would at least ensure that users in these regions can access the
> existing source.
>
> Does this development concern anyone else?
>
> Nyall
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