Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:13:09AM -0500, Brett Randall wrote: snip point-and-click most WB users like, but I personally like keyboard functionality more, even if the standard QWERTY keyboard sucks arse big time). Hey that's an idea. Why don't we change the standard Windows client to a ported GNUS and change the keyboards to Dvorak's! That should increase work efficiency by about 400%! Oh well, to dream of the future /BR Urban legend. There have been studies that show QWERTY isn't all that bad. _The Economist_ in particular ran a story about a study comparing Dvorak and QWERTY and found no advantage either way. The misconception comes from the statement that the keyboard was designed to slow typists down. Not quite. It was designed to prevent the hammers from getting tangled up. Doing so doesn't necessarily mean the typist will be slower. jon
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
Jon Rust [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes on 4 October 2000 at 08:00:56 -0700 On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:13:09AM -0500, Brett Randall wrote: snip point-and-click most WB users like, but I personally like keyboard functionality more, even if the standard QWERTY keyboard sucks arse big time). Hey that's an idea. Why don't we change the standard Windows client to a ported GNUS and change the keyboards to Dvorak's! That should increase work efficiency by about 400%! Oh well, to dream of the future /BR Urban legend. There have been studies that show QWERTY isn't all that bad. _The Economist_ in particular ran a story about a study comparing Dvorak and QWERTY and found no advantage either way. http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=196071 Thanks for the pointer; I know I've seen several debunkings of the Dvorak claims, but I couldn't lay hands on one quickly when Brett's claim came through. The misconception comes from the statement that the keyboard was designed to slow typists down. Not quite. It was designed to prevent the hammers from getting tangled up. Doing so doesn't necessarily mean the typist will be slower. All the very-fast typists I know use Qwerty (and I know one who tests over 150 WPM). -- David Dyer-Bennet / Welcome to the future! / [EMAIL PROTECTED] Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/ SF: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon/
Best Keyboard (was: Best Winbloze Mail Client?)
* David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All the very-fast typists I know use Qwerty (and I know one who tests over 150 WPM). URL:http://attrition.org/gallery/ms/win2k-kbd.jpg -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/ URL:http://attrition.org/gallery/ms/ms-keys.gif
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
* Hubbard, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Almost missed that one... How about MS Outlook Express? Right, what about it? Let's see. Yeah yeah, Microsoft product, Cool. Your oxymoron is bigger than mine. Almost as good as "Microsoft Works". but it does have extremely good support for the various protocols. It will do POP3, IMAP, SSL encrypted POP3 IMAP, SSL encrypted SMTP if the mailserver supports it, Yeah, right. So? Got the t-shirt years ago. directory services, etc. What is a directory service? Plus, the big thing for me; you can add in as many mail accounts on as many different servers configured in different ways as you want ... if you're contented with a setup of "regular expressions" to filter by that's aimed at a lobotomized Neanderthal. and they all show up in a nice expandable list on the left side. ... which, if collapsed does not show new mail. Great. Next thing MS will do is sell Outlook-enhanced 281" monitors. As someone who runs an ISP, I like it so I can ... send emails to all your friends with ILOVEYOU in the subject? ... forward the contents of your address book to millions of people? ... infest the entire network with MS viruses? easily check the postmaster accounts on over 60 domains by just starting the program and hitting "Send/Receive All" so it goes out and checks each domain's account. Wow. How utterly amazing. So, roughly 10 years after this could be done in an orderly, modularized fashion under Un*x, Lusers United Ltd. have finally given the Great Unwashed(tm) a button to click on. Praise the Lord, brothers and sisters, all hail Gill Bates... Could someone pass me a bucket, please? Now for the downsides of Outlook and its friends: · "RE:" is not a valid reply string · your mail does not have references, so that it shows up *some*where but not where it belongs (thread first, kill later) · "-Original Message-" - WTF is that? · an attribution line is one *line*, not five *lines* · From: is in the header · Subject: is in the subject line · X-Sent is in the header · To: is in the header · quoted text goes above your reply · full quotes *SUCK* · where are your sigdashes? · you've got a trailing blank line OK...I've had enuf of Outlook. If only there were killfiles that acutally kill... -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/Gnus/
RE: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
Robin, I was just giving him an option, no need to be rude about it. Just to answer a few of your comments though: A directory service is my case would be an LDAP server. Show me a GUI client that can do SSL IMAP, SSL POP3 and LDAP. Seperate accounts with seperate inboxes is much more than a regular expression. I can check email on all of my accounts and when I reply, select the account I want my reply to show as coming from in a drop down "From" box, very helpful when I need to be postmaster at a number of different domains easily. My copy of OE5 drops down the Inbox of the account in question if it finds new mail and puts the number of new messages next to it. If you set your IE to restricted zones, disable HTML messages and scripting, there's no more danger in this client than any other. So what if you shouldn't have to do all that, I didn't say it was a perfect solution, just a convenient one when managing a lot of domains. Since you had nothing productive to say, why don't you just be happy with your orderly, modularized unix client and not post to the list? I don't like Microsoft for much but OE5 makes my life easier so I choose to use it and it works great in combination with my linux based Qmail/Courier-IMAP w/SSL installation as a secure way to check a lot of email accounts. Dave -Original Message- From: Robin S. Socha To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 10/3/00 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client? * Hubbard, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Almost missed that one... How about MS Outlook Express? Right, what about it? Let's see. Yeah yeah, Microsoft product, Cool. Your oxymoron is bigger than mine. Almost as good as "Microsoft Works". but it does have extremely good support for the various protocols. It will do POP3, IMAP, SSL encrypted POP3 IMAP, SSL encrypted SMTP if the mailserver supports it, Yeah, right. So? Got the t-shirt years ago. directory services, etc. What is a directory service? Plus, the big thing for me; you can add in as many mail accounts on as many different servers configured in different ways as you want ... if you're contented with a setup of "regular expressions" to filter by that's aimed at a lobotomized Neanderthal. and they all show up in a nice expandable list on the left side. ... which, if collapsed does not show new mail. Great. Next thing MS will do is sell Outlook-enhanced 281" monitors. As someone who runs an ISP, I like it so I can ... send emails to all your friends with ILOVEYOU in the subject? ... forward the contents of your address book to millions of people? ... infest the entire network with MS viruses? easily check the postmaster accounts on over 60 domains by just starting the program and hitting "Send/Receive All" so it goes out and checks each domain's account. Wow. How utterly amazing. So, roughly 10 years after this could be done in an orderly, modularized fashion under Un*x, Lusers United Ltd. have finally given the Great Unwashed(tm) a button to click on. Praise the Lord, brothers and sisters, all hail Gill Bates... Could someone pass me a bucket, please? Now for the downsides of Outlook and its friends: · "RE:" is not a valid reply string · your mail does not have references, so that it shows up *some*where but not where it belongs (thread first, kill later) · "-Original Message-" - WTF is that? · an attribution line is one *line*, not five *lines* · From: is in the header · Subject: is in the subject line · X-Sent is in the header · To: is in the header · quoted text goes above your reply · full quotes *SUCK* · where are your sigdashes? · you've got a trailing blank line OK...I've had enuf of Outlook. If only there were killfiles that acutally kill... -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/Gnus/
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
"Hubbard, David" wrote: Show me a GUI client that can do SSL IMAP, SSL POP3 and LDAP. Well, Netscape Messenger can... Seperate accounts with seperate inboxes is much more than a regular expression. I can check email on all of my accounts and when I reply, select the account I want my reply to show as coming from in a drop down "From" box, very helpful when I need to be postmaster at a number of different domains easily. Robin was referring to the highly inefficient mail filter tool built into Outlook. It is a royal pain in the derriere to use. Since you had nothing productive to say, why don't you just be happy with your orderly, modularized unix client and not post to the list? I don't like Microsoft for much but OE5 makes my life easier so I choose to use it and it works great in combination with my linux based Qmail/Courier-IMAP w/SSL installation as a secure way to check a lot of email accounts. My experience with Outlook has been similarly dismal. Outlook buggers up quotes, misinterprets message times when they come off of IMAP (I get the times in GMT rather than in the local time zone -- grr) and crashes with ample frequency. Never thought I'd say it, but Netscape is more stable, and I'm using it instead =) -Stephen-
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
* Hubbard, David [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Tell me, David, is it because you cannot think coherently or because you
cannot find the right button to click on that you have to "qoute" my
entire message *un*quoted below your text?
Robin, I was just giving him an option,
Not. You were advocating a "product", David. One that has caused both
admins and ML readers (not to mention NGs) more grief than any other
tool on this planet. Have you ever visited the list archive and checked
just how fscked up they are because of missing reference headers?
no need to be rude about it.
If you consider talking about your misinformation rude, that's too bad.
Just to answer a few of your comments though:
A directory service is my case would be an LDAP server. Show me a GUI
client that can do SSL IMAP, SSL POP3 and LDAP.
XEmacs/Gnus - go figure... But does OE grok Maildir? Thought so...
Seperate accounts with seperate inboxes is much more than a regular
expression.
Acutally, it's a lot less.[1] A *fat* lot.
I can check email on all of my accounts and when I reply, select the
account I want my reply to show as coming from in a drop down "From"
box, very helpful when I need to be postmaster at a number of different
domains easily.
Yeah, like, rilly helpful, huh-huh...
(setq gnus-posting-styles
'((".*"
(address "[EMAIL PROTECTED]")
(eval (ispell-change-dictionary "english"))
(signature "You must die. I alone am best.")))
("^comp.*"
(address "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"))
("^de."
(eval (ispell-change-dictionary "deutsch8")))
("^fr."
(eval (ispell-change-dictionary "francais")))
)
My copy of OE5 drops down the Inbox of the account in question
if it finds new mail and puts the number of new messages next to it.
Is that the Melissa or the ILOVEYOU edition of OE5? And just for the
record:
,[ Gnus group buffer ]
| * Gnus -- 11474 *
| * MyStuff -- 23 *
| 1 1: nnimap+radioactive:robin a)
| 2 9: nnkiboze:Wankers b)
| 4 12: nnslashdot:Slashdot c)
| * Linux -- 208 *... f)
| * Mail/News -- 280 *
| 3 83: gnu.emacs.gnus d)
| 3 % 96: nnml+robin:DingGnus
| * qmail -- 92 *
| 2 % 8: nnml+robin:qmail e)
`
That kinda amounts to a) IMAP/SSL, b) "grab all idiots from various
mailinglists", c) website, d) local news spool, and e) Maildir. Not to
mention the 5 foreign newsservers in f). The numbers at the beginning of
the lines are "levels". Saying "1 l" leaves me with only my personal
mail, "l 2" is mailing lists... Mail is properly archived in hidden
groups corresponding to the ones I read and write to. Blablabla. What
was your point about Outofluck being technologically advanced again,
darling? And BTW, that's just a couple out of ~40 backends for mail and
news. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, or so they say, David.
If you set your IE to restricted zones, disable HTML messages and
scripting, there's no more danger in this client than any other.
Sigged. Damn, you're naive.
So what if you shouldn't have to do all that, I didn't say it was a
perfect solution, just a convenient one when managing a lot of domains.
If it works for you, great. If you use it as a mail reader, great. Just
don't use it to write to public mailing lists.
Since you had nothing productive to say,
Read my sig, sweetheart.
why don't you just be happy with your orderly, modularized unix
client and not post to the list?
Because as long as people like you use MSOE and its likes, it will be
overly difficult to read it.
I don't like Microsoft for much but OE5 makes my life easier
Do I care? It makes *my* life harder. And unless someone cooks up really
bright with procmail, everybody else's, too. Tell me, David, why do you
deliberatly enforce an unnecessary amount of trouble upon your innocent
readers? Bad as they are, Netscape, The Bat!, Eudora, Pine, or Becky
behave a lot better. If you have to use mailing lists, do your fellow
listmembers a favour and use one of those.
[82 lines snipped]
Ok?
Footnotes:
[1] Aw, fsck 160 body lines... Here, David, at least following 25 lines
carry some meaning... Hope you get it...
,[ man procmailsc ]
| Suppose you have a priority folder which you always read first. The
| next recipe picks out the priority mail and files them in this special
| folder. The first condition is a regular one, i.e. it doesn't
| contribute to the score, but simply has to be satisfied. The other
| conditions describe things like: john and claire usually have
| something impor tant to say, meetings are usually important, replies
| are favoured a bit, mails about Elvis (this is merely an example :-)
| are favoured (the more he is mentioned, the more the mail is favoured,
| but the maximum extra score due to Elvis will be 4000, no matter how
| often he is mentioned), lots of quoted lines are
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
Umm, for what it's worth, the "RE:" bug isn't in Outlook Express 5, at least not the one that came with my Windows 2000 work box. Can't vouch for the rest of the "features", though. ---Kris Kelley
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
Sure there is! http://home.netscape.com/ I certainly wouldn't underestimate the capacity of Netscape Messenger. What's ever better it's free as well! I personally think Netscape is *much* better than Outlook Express of any form... But hey, that's just me, being a hard core Netscape user... Don't worry, be Kneppie! Jan Jos Okhuijsen wrote: Hi All, Yes, agree there are a lot of problems with Outlook Express. No doubt about it. But: For the everage user on the premises, that is one of the poor suckers that uses one of the windows platforms there is no "better" alternative. That we "professionals" see and have to deal with the problems does not change the fact that we can't come up with an alternative (for the avere user) with at least the same easy of use and features. aving to say that really hursts, and from the reactions to see, i am not alone. Isn't there really any programmer (group) out there who can write a better windows solution to replace this free outlook express? Jos -- Jan Knepper Smartsoft, LLC 88 Petersburg Road Petersburg, NJ 08270 U.S.A. http://www.smartsoft.cc/ http://www.mp3.com/pianoprincess Phone : 609-628-4260 FAX : 609-628-1267 FAX : 303-845-6415 http://www.fax4free.com/ Phone : 020-873-3837 http://www.xoip.nl/ (Dutch) FAX : 020-873-3837 http://www.xoip.nl/ (Dutch) In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
Thus said "Jos Okhuijsen" on Wed, 04 Oct 2000 02:21:53 +0300: Isn't there really any programmer (group) out there who can write a better windows solution to replace this free outlook express? Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, they are probably developing those better solutions for UNIX and Linux. There are plenty of email clients for those platforms, at least around 50 by my count. Maybe some of them could be rewritten for Winblows... Andy -- [---[system uptime]] 11:39pm up 16 days, 19:59, 3 users, load average: 1.54, 1.41, 1.31
Re: OT: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
* Brett Randall [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK...I've had enuf of Outlook. What is the best, most extensible Winbloze mail client? Gnus. http://www.gnus.org/. Groks maildir, scores like anything, has regexps for splitting and does PGP like a charm. Among many other things. On the downside, it's a hell of a beast to set up. Not for the weak. Oh yeah... it also fixes broken citations easily, threads properly and lets you score on message bodies, too. -- Robin S. Socha http://socha.net/Gnus/
Re: OT: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
"Robin S. Socha" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gnus. http://www.gnus.org/. Groks maildir, scores like anything, has regexps for splitting and does PGP like a charm. Among many other things. On the downside, it's a hell of a beast to set up. Not for the weak. To be fair on Gnus, Gnus itself is not the hard part of the learning curve. It's the fact that it's an Emacs subsystem, and for non Emacs users, requires familiarity with Emacs before it is usable. Configuring gnus for basic operation is fairly straightforward if you already know Emacs quite well. The difficulty lies in not being comfortable with editing emacs lisp files, even simple ones. My .gnus is fairly short excluding comments; if you don't need auto splitting into multiple email groups, it can be even shorter. All you really need to use maildir mail: (setq gnus-secondary-select-methods '((nnml ""))) (setq mail-sources '((maildir))) and possibly something to fix up your source address. The Gnus complexity is very low; it's the Emacs part that's harder. The other thing that's hard is adjusting to reading your mail with a newsreader. Once you get used to it, it makes sense, but it takes a little getting used to. -Matt -- | Matthew J. Brown - Senior Network Administrator - NBCi Shopping | | 1983 W. 190th St, Suite 100, Torrance CA 90504 | | Phone: (310) 538-7122| Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Cell: (714) 457-1854| Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
Re: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
On Sat, Sep 30, 2000 at 11:44:30PM -0400, Hubbard, David wrote: How about MS Outlook Express? It screwed up that reply all right... OT: doesn't mean Re: and so on... Have you looked at Mullberry? http://www.cyrusoft.com/mulberry/ Or The Bat http://www.ritlabs.com/the_bat/ or PMMail http://www.pmmail2000.com (ex OS/2) I've heard good things about all of these... http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Internet/Clients/Mail/ -Johan -- Johan Almqvist
Re: OT: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
also sprach brett: OK...I've had enuf of Outlook. If you don't absolutely have to have a cute GUI, it looks like some folks have compiled mutt for Windows*. It's a cygwin thing to compile, so it won't be totally straightforward. However, if you want a tremendously powerful mailer, I'd highly suggest at least looking into it. http://www.mutt.org/ http://www.gnt.net/~n5ial/mutt/building_mutt_on_win.html It also looks like The Bat! has received fairly good reviews, though I can't attest for this personally. http://www.ritlabs.com/the_bat/index.html http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/features/e-mail/mail13.html Good luck! /pg -- Peter Green : Gospel Communications Network, SysAdmin : [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- We used to laugh at Grandpa when he'd head off and go fishing. But we wouldn't be laughing that evening when he'd come back with some whore he picked up in town. (Jack Handey)
Re: OT: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
I might be weird, but I have been very happy with Netscape Messenger. I have looked at quite a few other clients, but really like Netscape best so far. http://home.netscape.com/ Don't worry, be Kneppie! Jan Brett Randall wrote: OK...I've had enuf of Outlook. What is the best, most extensible Winbloze mail client? Tried Eudora 5, it sucked butt. Pegasus Mail 3 was pretty good as it was in the past, but a little too unusual and ugly in operation. Outlook 2000 IMHO looks nice and has an efficient point-and-click interface, but it handles IMAP4 like crap and as we all know, screws up In-Reply-To lines among other things. So...what is as nice as Outlook point-and-click wise, with good support for IMAP4, and nice and extensible (macros would be nice, and keyboard shortcuts a must). I'd prefer noone says 'get a real OS' since we all have our reasons for what we do. But at last after many comments I want a new mail client in the very least. One thing I like about Outlook is the way that each message I open is a new window, not an MDI child. That is almost a must, but if need be I can sacrifice this 'feature' (some may call it something else). Thankyou for your comments, and (no doubt) unneeded flames. Brett. Manager InterPlanetary Solutions http://ipsware.com/ -- Jan Knepper Smartsoft, LLC 88 Petersburg Road Petersburg, NJ 08270 U.S.A. http://www.smartsoft.cc/ http://www.mp3.com/pianoprincess Phone : 609-628-4260 FAX : 609-628-1267 FAX : 303-845-6415 http://www.fax4free.com/ Phone : 020-873-3837 http://www.xoip.nl/ (Dutch) FAX : 020-873-3837 http://www.xoip.nl/ (Dutch) In God we Trust -- all others must submit an X.509 certificate. -- Charles Forsythe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
OK...I've had enuf of Outlook. What is the best, most extensible Winbloze mail client? Tried Eudora 5, it sucked butt. Pegasus Mail 3 was pretty good as it was in the past, but a little too unusual and ugly in operation. Outlook 2000 IMHO looks nice and has an efficient point-and-click interface, but it handles IMAP4 like crap and as we all know, screws up In-Reply-To lines among other things. So...what is as nice as Outlook point-and-click wise, with good support for IMAP4, and nice and extensible (macros would be nice, and keyboard shortcuts a must). I'd prefer noone says 'get a real OS' since we all have our reasons for what we do. But at last after many comments I want a new mail client in the very least. One thing I like about Outlook is the way that each message I open is a new window, not an MDI child. That is almost a must, but if need be I can sacrifice this 'feature' (some may call it something else). Thankyou for your comments, and (no doubt) unneeded flames. Brett. Manager InterPlanetary Solutions http://ipsware.com/
RE: Best Winbloze Mail Client?
How about MS Outlook Express? Yeah yeah, Microsoft product, but it does have extremely good support for the various protocols. It will do POP3, IMAP, SSL encrypted POP3 IMAP, SSL encrypted SMTP if the mailserver supports it, directory services, etc. Plus, the big thing for me; you can add in as many mail accounts on as many different servers configured in different ways as you want and they all show up in a nice expandable list on the left side. As someone who runs an ISP, I like it so I can easily check the postmaster accounts on over 60 domains by just starting the program and hitting "Send/Receive All" so it goes out and checks each domain's account. Dave -Original Message- From: Brett Randall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 12:35 AM To: qmail Subject: OT: Best Winbloze Mail Client? OK...I've had enuf of Outlook. What is the best, most extensible Winbloze mail client? Tried Eudora 5, it sucked butt. Pegasus Mail 3 was pretty good as it was in the past, but a little too unusual and ugly in operation. Outlook 2000 IMHO looks nice and has an efficient point-and-click interface, but it handles IMAP4 like crap and as we all know, screws up In-Reply-To lines among other things. So...what is as nice as Outlook point-and-click wise, with good support for IMAP4, and nice and extensible (macros would be nice, and keyboard shortcuts a must). I'd prefer noone says 'get a real OS' since we all have our reasons for what we do. But at last after many comments I want a new mail client in the very least. One thing I like about Outlook is the way that each message I open is a new window, not an MDI child. That is almost a must, but if need be I can sacrifice this 'feature' (some may call it something else). Thankyou for your comments, and (no doubt) unneeded flames. Brett. Manager InterPlanetary Solutions http://ipsware.com/
