subject:"\[QUAD\-L\] Stem Cell Bill Killed"

What disease or ailment was ever cured by the church? Relkigion only tells you who to hate, not how to get better.

john

In a message dated 7/20/2006 1:54:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
(O'C, I'm copying this from comments I made on another list to respond to you)At 07:35 PM 7/19/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Where were these EXTRA embryos headed otherwise Jim? I thought 'we' were going to try to use these EXTRA embryos that were going to be destroyed for medical research BEFORE we destroyed them. I thought 'we' were going to make eyeballs, kidneys, and neurons with these stem cells before we flushed the leftovers. I'm sure I'm missing something here. Please fill in the blanks.O'CI've never thought of myself as part of the "Christian Right" as you say (I am a Roman Catholic) but agree with president Bush on this and I will explain way.I do belive that a human egg and human sperm make a human being from the time they are joined, from that point the zygote contains all the 46 chromosomes need to be human. It's called an embryo after about 10 days. Being a human, it is entitled to protection to life from the Government. Therefore, the Government should not be funding the destruction of life for the purpose of research.Now your opinion of when a human is a human and entitled to protection obviously differs from mine and president Bush. You can decide for yourself when a human becomes a human that is entitled to protection. Some people thing after birth and not before. I'm against IVF treatments as well because it creates extra embryos in the process. As for using those extra embryos in research for the possible benefit of others, just because they are going to be destroyed anyway, following that reasoning, here's my problem with that. A person with a traumatic brain injury or in a coma being kept alive on ventilator will never be completely healed and will die without the life-support, so why not harvest their body parts to improve someone else's life? I see both equally wrong. The Nazi's conducted medical research on the people they were going to kill anyway. I see it as the same.Now, if scientist want to use stem cells derived from a human egg and another cell, somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT), I don't consider that a human and have no problem with research on those stem cells.

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed- (lets pray not)




The federal gov't is funding 25million. the stem cell lines the feds insist to be used are contaminated and useless. People wouldn't starve in california of they werent anorexic or bulemic. Maybe stem cell theray will cure that?

john

In a message dated 7/20/2006 2:43:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Since you want to compare Bush to Hitler and said it took several nations to prove him wrong...As far as standard of morality when it comes to doing medical research on human embryos, as far as I have been able to find so correct me if I am mistaken, Canada and the European Nation countries also do not fund research on human embryos. Only China and South Korea do.Bush only put a restriction on federal funding when it comes using human embryos. He did not outlaw there use. The federal gov't is funding a few hundred million in stem cell research. This bill would not have increased that amount. The state of California alone is funding $6 billion in human embryonic stem cell research. That $6 billion in California tax payer dollars could have been spent to feed the hungry you mentioned but the California voters decided that funding stem cell research was more important. So the hungry, sick and poor have to live with the moral standards of not one person but of the 7,009,814 people in California who voted for Proposition 71: Stem Cell Research. Funding. Bonds, not the 4,859,401 who voted against it.

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed




Without a womb its just a bacterial gue on the floor.

john


In a message dated 7/20/2006 3:34:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
no, an individual sperm only contains 23 chromosomes need to be human. That is where I draw the line. It's a human when a human egg and human sperm combine to have the 46 chromosomes need to be human. It may seem ridiculous to you but It's basic biology. You apparently think it takes longer in the development cycle to be considered a human. At 11:48 AM 7/20/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If we talk about the "potential" of 5-day old, 200 cell, unimplanted zygotes, then let's talk about the "potential" of an individual sperm. Isn't it the same potential? Where do you draw the line? It's really pretty ridiculous. It's time to use common sense. Those ready-for-destruction zygotes should be used, it's immoral not to. Sandy 
Jim Lubin [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://makoa.org/jim disAbility Resources: http://www.makoa.orgPlease Help: Inkjet  Toner Cartridge Recycling

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed




Jim,,
I have brain damage and I still can't figure out what your arguement is? You just keep saying everyone is wrong. No IV clinics now? Keep embryos frozen? How many chickens do eat for breakfast? I use to call 'm eggs. Can't tell when a rooster gets loose, huh?

john


In a message dated 7/20/2006 7:11:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I think both are wrong. I don't think they should have created them in the first place for IVF, but since they exist then keep them on life support (i.e. frozen) indefinitely. They are not something that should be killed (i.e. by removing stem cells) to possibly make another persons life better. I have a moral problem with taking one life to improve another persons life.Embryos left over from IVF are not the only source for stem cells. (2006.06.27: Research on Alternative Sources of Pluripotent Stem Cells, http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t060627.html )So I feel those sources should pursued since there would be no moral or ethical concerns. I'm all for scientific advancement that does not conflict with my morals and ethics. At 12:47 PM 7/20/2006, RollinOn wrote:
Let me get this straight, if you throw the embryos in the trash they're called left over waste.If you research them, your killing human beings.
Jim Lubin [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://makoa.org/jim disAbility Resources: http://www.makoa.orgPlease Help: Inkjet  Toner Cartridge Recycling

FW: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-21 Thread William Willis

Mother Nature aborts a potential life every month. Every time a guy 
indulges in a bit of self-pleasure, he destroys the potential population 
of Chicago. When a child is born with the remnants of a twin growing  from 
its side like a grotesque tumor, do we honor that twin as a human? When a 
child is born without a brain  and unrecognizable as a human.and 
the list goes on. This is far from a black and white issue as the religious 
conservatives would have you believe.




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], quad-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 14:48:07 EDT

If we talk about the potential of 5-day old, 200 cell, unimplanted
zygotes, then let's talk about the potential of an individual sperm. 
Isn't it  the

same potential? Where do you draw the line? It's really pretty ridiculous.
It's time to use common sense. Those ready-for-destruction zygotes should 
be

used, it's immoral not to.
Sandy

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-21 Thread Angelique Novak




I've thought basically the same thing, only having his children, wife,
or his church-whipped ass be paralyzed from a spinal cord injury at the
levels C1  C2, so it results in a ventilator dependent quadriplegic
body, (like mine), would be better. No death sentence in sight, ya
see. That would probably change his mind!
-Angelique
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
he just made it impossible to do stem cell
research in a facility that accepts gov't funding. A little technicallity
that makes 97% of the medical fasilities in the US unavailable for this
research.I hope he watches his children die of a slow debiltating disease
that would have been curable in 5 years.johnIn a message
dated 7/19/2006 11:44:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
George
Bush did not kill research on stem cells, he just refused to fund it with
taxpayers money. Like many other sickness and diseases, researchers
continuing on with private donations and private fundraisers. Any
person who wants to sit around and wait for the government to take action
on important issues that they may benefit from I suggest is wasting their
time. Most cures in this country have been discovered through RD
of private companies in the perseverance of medical scientists and doctors
funded by private donations.T.
Houston C5 C6

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-21 Thread Angelique Novak




Let's not forget that a embryo that becomes a fetus is really a parasite,
feeding off the mother until delivery, if delivery happens. So embryos
in a dish, are really just potential parasites. Use them!
-Angelique

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Without a womb its just a bacterial gue on
the floor. john In a message dated 7/20/2006 3:34:17 PM Eastern Daylight
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
no,
an individual sperm only contains 23 chromosomes need to be human. That
is where I draw the line. It's a human when a human egg and human sperm
combine to have the 46 chromosomes need to be human. It may seem ridiculous
to you but It's basic biology.
You apparently think it takes longer in the development
cycle to be considered a human.
At 11:48 AM 7/20/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If
we talk about the "potential" of 5-day old, 200 cell, unimplanted zygotes,
then let's talk about the "potential" of an individual sperm. Isn't it
the same potential? Where do you draw the line? It's really pretty ridiculous.
It's time to use common sense. Those ready-for-destruction zygotes should
be used, it's immoral not to.
Sandy


Jim Lubin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://makoa.org/jim
disAbility Resources: http://www.makoa.org
Please Help: Inkjet
 Toner Cartridge Recycling

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-21 Thread tahouston




Only stem cells derived from abortions 
are not not federally funded.


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; quad-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 11:59 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill 
  Killed
  
  
  he just made it impossible to do stem cell research in a facility that 
  accepts gov't funding. A little technicallity that makes 97% of the medical 
  fasilities in the US unavailable for this research.I hope he watches his 
  children die of a slow debiltating disease that would have been curable in 5 
  years.
  
  john
  
  
  In a message dated 7/19/2006 11:44:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
George Bush did not kill research on stem 
cells,he just refused to fund it with taxpayers money. Like many 
other sickness and diseases, researchers continuing on with private 
donations and private fundraisers. Any person who wants to sit around 
and wait for the government to take action on important issues that they may 
benefit from I suggest is wasting their time. Most cures in this 
country have been discovered through RD of private companies in the 
perseverance of medical scientists and doctors funded by private 
donations.

T. Houston C5 
  C6

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-20 Thread River Wolfe

The concern is that when private interests complete research on medical cures, it is their property.  Resulting in a financial interest for the private company.  If it were Gvt sponsoredresearch, then it would be owned by us and the price to partake in the treatment would be considerably less.  I also don't understand how TonySnow can say W is against murder, but that since using these zygotes for research isn't illegal then the private sector can and will pursue research.  Seems kinda hypocritical to me.On Jul 19, 2006, at 11:46 PM, tahouston wrote:George Bush did not kill research on stem cells, he just refused to fund it with taxpayers money.  Like many other sickness and diseases, researchers continuing on with private donations and private fundraisers.  Any person who wants to sit around and wait for the government to take action on important issues that they may benefit from I suggest is wasting their time.  Most cures in this country have been discovered through RD of private companies in the perseverance of medical scientists and doctors funded by private donations. T. Houston C5 C6- Original Message -From: Rick CaseltineTo: Quad ListSent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:50 PMSubject: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill KilledBush uses first-ever veto to kill stem cell bill 32minutes ago WASHINGTON (AFP) - US    President George W. Bushused his veto for the first time since taking office,blocking a bill that would have expanded federalfunding for embryonic stem cell research.  "It crosses a moral boundary that our decent societyneeds to respect, so I vetoed it," Bush said inremarks at the White House, saying that in rejectingthe legislation he is "keeping the promise I made tothe American people."As science brings us ever closer to unlocking thesecrets of human biology, it also offers temptationsto manipulate human life and violate human dignity,"said Bush."Our conscience and history as a nation demand that weresist this temptation," Bush said.The stem cell research endorsed by the Senate onTuesday would have used embryos -- some consisting ofjust a handful of cells -- left over from in vitrofertilization (IVF) procedures.The president had long vowed to veto the bill becauseof his deeply held moral beliefs that destroying humanlife is wrong -- even in its earliest form, and evenin the interest of research that could lead topotentially life-saving medical breakthroughs.Bush made the announcement at a White House signingceremony for alternative bioethics legislation knownas "The Fetus Farming Prohibition Act," making it acrime to initiate a pregnancy for the sole purpose ofobtaining human organs or tissue for research.Present for the announcement were several familieswith "snowflake babies" -- children conceived viadonated embryos left over from IVF treatments.The president vetoed the Stem Cell ResearchEnhancement Act despite widespread support by the USpublic and ardent backers in Congress, who onWednesday urged Bush to reconsider his stance.Stem cell research advocates say the technique showspromise for the treatment of degenerative diseasessuch as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and for diabetes.The bill would have lifted rules set by Bush in 2001making federal funds available only for research on asmall number of embryonic stem cell lines whichexisted at that time.Government money is barred from supporting work on newlines derived from human embryos -- a restriction thatopponents say hampers overall research.In London, Martin Rees, the president of the RoyalSociety -- Britain's de facto academy of sciences --said the US policy "is slowing down the global effortto develop therapies for a range of diseases andillnesses.""If the present restrictions remain, it would surelymean that the United States will continue to fallbehind in this important and exciting area," saidRees.The Senate approved the measure by a 63-37 vote -- amargin too small to override a presidential veto.Nevertheless, 41 Senate Democrats sent a letter toMajority Leader Bill Frist, urging him to lobbysupport among congressional Republicans to overturnBush's veto."We are pleased that you supported this importantlegislation and know that you recognize the enormouspotential of this research for discovering new curesand therapies for diseases such as diabetes,Parkinsons disease and spinal cord injuries."The only chance for overriding this veto rests withyou and the Republican caucuses in the House and theSenate."Millions of patients and their families across thenation cannot afford to wait any longer for theenactment of this urgently needed legislation," theDemocratic lawmakers wrote. "We are counting on your leadership to help ensurethat this legislation becomes law so that we mayfinally clear the way for research that could lead totreatments and cures for so many debilitating diseaseand conditions," Democrats wrote.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-20 Thread Bill_J




Bush did kill research on 
embryonic stem cells to this extent: ANY institution, public or private, that 
receives government money for any reason CAN NOT use embryos for stem cell 
research or they would forfiet the government money. This means any 
university that accepts students on government grants or loans, any drug company 
that recieves government money for RD of ANY kind; "any form of government 
funding" disqualifies nearly everyone.

The embryos that HR 810 was going 
to allow to be used for research were embryos that were destined for destruction 
anyway. I say "Use them - don't lose them."

If anyone wants to get Bush's veto 
overidden they should call/write the 37 who voted against it in the Senate and 
those who voted for it who represent you and urge them to either change their 
vote or vote for it again. Very often a Senator or Representative will 
vote for a bill the first time, but vote against it after a veto. Leave 
nothing to chance.

As of today I'm 38 years into 
quadom and counting. I'm hoping that this veto is overidden NOT FOR ME, 
but for the people who contract ALS, Alzheimers, Parkinsons, MS, MD, paraplegia, 
quadriplegia, etc. 10 or 20 years from now. By then the stem cell research 
might be at a point that it can help many 
maladies/diseases.

Bill age 55C6 Incomplete since 
7/20/68Leesburg, FLFor every action, there is an equal and opposite 
government program.

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  tahouston 
  To: quad-list@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:46 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill 
  Killed
  
  George Bush did not kill research on stem 
  cells,he just refused to fund it with taxpayers money. Like many 
  other sickness and diseases, researchers continuing on with private donations 
  and private fundraisers. Any person who wants to sit around and wait for 
  the government to take action on important issues that they may benefit from I 
  suggest is wasting their time. Most cures in this country have been 
  discovered through RD of private companies in the perseverance of medical 
  scientists and doctors funded by private donations.
  
  T. Houston C5 C6
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Rick 
Caseltine 
To: Quad List 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:50 
    PM
    Subject: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill 
Killed
Bush uses first-ever veto to kill stem cell bill 
32minutes agoWASHINGTON (AFP) - 
US President George W. 
Bushused his veto for the first time since taking office,blocking a 
bill that would have expanded federalfunding for embryonic stem cell 
research. "It crosses a moral boundary that our decent 
societyneeds to respect, so I vetoed it," Bush said inremarks at the 
White House, saying that in rejectingthe legislation he is "keeping the 
promise I made tothe American people."As science brings us ever 
closer to unlocking thesecrets of human biology, it also offers 
temptationsto manipulate human life and violate human dignity,"said 
Bush."Our conscience and history as a nation demand that 
weresist this temptation," Bush said.The stem cell research 
endorsed by the Senate onTuesday would have used embryos -- some 
consisting ofjust a handful of cells -- left over from in 
vitrofertilization (IVF) procedures.The president had long vowed 
to veto the bill becauseof his deeply held moral beliefs that destroying 
humanlife is wrong -- even in its earliest form, and evenin the 
interest of research that could lead topotentially life-saving medical 
breakthroughs.Bush made the announcement at a White House 
signingceremony for alternative bioethics legislation knownas "The 
Fetus Farming Prohibition Act," making it acrime to initiate a pregnancy 
for the sole purpose ofobtaining human organs or tissue for 
research.Present for the announcement were several familieswith 
"snowflake babies" -- children conceived viadonated embryos left over 
from IVF treatments.The president vetoed the Stem Cell 
ResearchEnhancement Act despite widespread support by the USpublic 
and ardent backers in Congress, who onWednesday urged Bush to reconsider 
his stance.Stem cell research advocates say the technique 
showspromise for the treatment of degenerative diseasessuch as 
Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and for diabetes.The bill would have 
lifted rules set by Bush in 2001making federal funds available only for 
research on asmall number of embryonic stem cell lines whichexisted 
at that time.Government money is barred from supporting work on 
newlines derived from human embryos -- a restriction thatopponents 
say hampers overall research.In London, Martin Rees, the president 
of the RoyalSociety -- Britain's de facto academy of sciences --said 
the US policy "is slowing down

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed







Let's notforget that it's still legal to have 3 month abortions which I personally think is murder.
My point is obviously how can you havethis andthen draw the line at Stem cell research?


Mark

---Original Message---


From: River Wolfe
Date: 07/20/06 06:21:07
To: tahouston
Cc: quad
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed
The concern is that when private interests complete research on medical cures, it is their property. Resulting in a financial interest for the private company. If it were Gvt sponsored
research, then it would be owned by us and the price to partake in the treatment would be considerably less. I also don't understand how TonySnow can say W is against murder, but that since using these zygotes for research isn't illegal then the private sector can and will pursue research. Seems kinda hypocritical to me.

On Jul 19, 2006, at 11:46 PM, tahouston wrote:

George Bush did not kill research on stem cells,he just refused to fund it with taxpayers money. Like many other sickness and diseases, researchers continuing on with private donations and private fundraisers. Any person who wants to sit around and wait for the government to take action on important issues that they may benefit from I suggest is wasting their time. Most cures in this country have been discovered through RD of private companies in the perseverance of medical scientists and doctors funded by private donations.

T. Houston C5 C6

- Original Message -
From: Rick Caseltine
To: Quad List
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:50 PM
Subject: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed
Bush uses first-ever veto to kill stem cell bill 32minutes agoWASHINGTON (AFP) - US President George W. Bushused his veto for the first time since taking office,blocking a bill that would have expanded federalfunding for embryonic stem cell research."It crosses a moral boundary that our decent societyneeds to respect, so I vetoed it," Bush said inremarks at the White House, saying that in rejectingthe legislation he is "keeping the promise I made tothe American people."As science brings us ever closer to unlocking thesecrets of human biology, it also offers temptationsto manipulate human life and violate human dignity,"said Bush."Our conscience and history as a nation demand that weresist this temptation," Bush said.The stem cell research endorsed by the Senate onTuesday would have used embryos -- some consisting ofjust a handful of cells -- left over from in vitrofertilization (IVF) procedures.The president had long vowed to veto the bill becauseof his deeply held moral beliefs that destroying humanlife is wrong -- even in its earliest form, and evenin the interest of research that could lead topotentially life-saving medical breakthroughs.Bush made the announcement at a White House signingceremony for alternative bioethics legislation knownas "The Fetus Farming Prohibition Act," making it acrime to initiate a pregnancy for the sole purpose ofobtaining human organs or tissue for research.Present for the announcement were several familieswith "snowflake babies" -- children conceived viadonated embryos left over from IVF treatments.The president vetoed the Stem Cell ResearchEnhancement Act despite widespread support by the USpublic and ardent backers in Congress, who onWednesday urged Bush to reconsider his stance.Stem cell research advocates say the technique showspromise for the treatment of degenerative diseasessuch as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and for diabetes.The bill would have lifted rules set by Bush in 2001making federal funds available only for research on asmall number of embryonic stem cell lines whichexisted at that time.Government money is barred from supporting work on newlines derived from human embryos -- a restriction thatopponents say hampers overall research.In London, Martin Rees, the president of the RoyalSociety -- Britain's de facto academy of sciences --said the US policy "is slowing down the global effortto develop therapies for a range of diseases andillnesses.""If the present restrictions remain, it would surelymean that the United States will continue to fallbehind in this important and exciting area," saidRees.The Senate approved the measure by a 63-37 vote -- amargin too small to override a presidential veto.Nevertheless, 41 Senate Democrats sent a letter toMajority Leader Bill Frist, urging him to lobbysupport among congressional Republicans to overturnBush's veto."We are pleased that you supported this importantlegislation and know that you recognize the enormouspotential of this research for discovering new curesand therapies for diseases such as diabetes,Parkinsons disease and spinal cord injuries."The only chance for overriding this veto rests withyou and the Republican caucuses in the House and theSenate."Millions of patients and their families across thenation cannot afford to wait any longer for theenactment of

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed



Wrong. Just like the tax payers during the cold war that
didn't like their tax money being spent to build nuclear weapons. It's up
to our elected officials, like it or not.
At 08:20 AM 7/20/2006, RollinOn wrote:
You're forgetting something very
important.
It's not George Bush's money, it's my money and every other tax payer's
money and they decided it was ok to use our money to research stem cell
lines that aren't available with out signing this bill.
It is the tax payers right to choose how they spend their money or am I
wrong?


Jim
Lubin

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://makoa.org/jim

disAbility Resources:
http://www.makoa.org
Please Help: Inkjet  Toner
Cartridge Recycling

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed



That's not completely accurate, see the NIH funding
guidelines regarding What if a scientist is conducting research
with both federally fundable and non-federally fundable human embryonic
stem cells?

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/faqs.asp 
At 06:39 AM 7/20/2006, Bill_J wrote:

Bush did kill research on
embryonic stem cells to this extent: ANY institution, public or private,
that receives government money for any reason CAN NOT use embryos for
stem cell research or they would forfiet the government money. This
means any university that accepts students on government grants or loans,
any drug company that recieves government money for RD of ANY kind;
any form of government funding disqualifies nearly
everyone.

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed







You're forgetting something very important.
It's not George Bush's money, it'smy money and every other tax payer's money and they decided it was ok to use our money to research stem cell lines that aren't available with out signing this bill.
It is the tax payers right to choose how they spend their money or am I wrong?

Mark

---Original Message---


From: tahouston
Date: 07/19/06 22:44:36
To: quad-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

George Bush did not kill research on stem cells,he just refused to fund it with taxpayers money. Like many other sickness and diseases, researchers continuing on with private donations and private fundraisers. Any person who wants to sit around and wait for the government to take action on important issues that they may benefit from I suggest is wasting their time. Most cures in this country have been discovered through RD of private companies in the perseverance of medical scientists and doctors funded by private donations.

T. Houston C5 C6

- Original Message - 
From: Rick Caseltine 
To: Quad List 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:50 PM
Subject: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed
Bush uses first-ever veto to kill stem cell bill 32minutes agoWASHINGTON (AFP) - US President George W. Bushused his veto for the first time since taking office,blocking a bill that would have expanded federalfunding for embryonic stem cell research. "It crosses a moral boundary that our decent societyneeds to respect, so I vetoed it," Bush said inremarks at the White House, saying that in rejectingthe legislation he is "keeping the promise I made tothe American people."As science brings us ever closer to unlocking thesecrets of human biology, it also offers temptationsto manipulate human life and violate human dignity,"said Bush."Our conscience and history as a nation demand that weresist this temptation," Bush said.The stem cell research endorsed by the Senate onTuesday would have used embryos -- some consisting ofjust a handful of cells -- left over from in vitrofertilization (IVF) procedures.The president had long vowed to veto the bill becauseof his deeply held moral beliefs that destroying humanlife is wrong -- even in its earliest form, and evenin the interest of research that could lead topotentially life-saving medical breakthroughs.Bush made the announcement at a White House signingceremony for alternative bioethics legislation knownas "The Fetus Farming Prohibition Act," making it acrime to initiate a pregnancy for the sole purpose ofobtaining human organs or tissue for research.Present for the announcement were several familieswith "snowflake babies" -- children conceived viadonated embryos left over from IVF treatments.The president vetoed the Stem Cell ResearchEnhancement Act despite widespread support by the USpublic and ardent backers in Congress, who onWednesday urged Bush to reconsider his stance.Stem cell research advocates say the technique showspromise for the treatment of degenerative diseasessuch as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and for diabetes.The bill would have lifted rules set by Bush in 2001making federal funds available only for research on asmall number of embryonic stem cell lines whichexisted at that time.Government money is barred from supporting work on newlines derived from human embryos -- a restriction thatopponents say hampers overall research.In London, Martin Rees, the president of the RoyalSociety -- Britain's de facto academy of sciences --said the US policy "is slowing down the global effortto develop therapies for a range of diseases andillnesses.""If the present restrictions remain, it would surelymean that the United States will continue to fallbehind in this important and exciting area," saidRees.The Senate approved the measure by a 63-37 vote -- amargin too small to override a presidential veto.Nevertheless, 41 Senate Democrats sent a letter toMajority Leader Bill Frist, urging him to lobbysupport among congressional Republicans to overturnBush's veto."We are pleased that you supported this importantlegislation and know that you recognize the enormouspotential of this research for discovering new curesand therapies for diseases such as diabetes,Parkinsons disease and spinal cord injuries."The only chance for overriding this veto rests withyou and the Republican caucuses in the House and theSenate."Millions of patients and their families across thenation cannot afford to wait any longer for theenactment of this urgently needed legislation," theDemocratic lawmakers wrote. "We are counting on your leadership to help ensurethat this legislation becomes law so that we mayfinally clear the way for research that could lead totreatments and cures for so many debilitating diseaseand conditions," Democrats wrote.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed







I believe our elected officials passed this bill by a majority because the taxpayers were in favor of it and giving one man the right to dictate what wewant is dangerous business and I personally thinkit needs to go.


Mark

---Original Message---


From: Jim Lubin
Date: 07/20/06 12:26:33
To: RollinOn; quad-list@eskimo.com; tahouston
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed
Wrong. Just like the tax payers during the cold war that didn't like their tax money being spent to build nuclear weapons. It's up to our elected officials, like it or not.At 08:20 AM 7/20/2006, RollinOn wrote:
You're forgetting something very important.It's not George Bush's money, it's my money and every other tax payer's money and they decided it was ok to use our money to research stem cell lines that aren't available with out signing this bill.It is the tax payers right to choose how they spend their money or am I wrong?
Jim Lubin [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://makoa.org/jim disAbility Resources: http://www.makoa.orgPlease Help: Inkjet  Toner Cartridge Recycling

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed- (lets pray not)



Since you want to compare Bush to Hitler and said it took
several nations to prove him wrong...
As far as standard of morality when it comes to doing medical research on
human embryos, as far as I have been able to find so correct me if I am
mistaken, Canada and the European Nation countries also do not fund
research on human embryos. Only China and South Korea do.
Bush only put a restriction on federal funding when it comes using human
embryos. He did not outlaw there use. The federal gov't is funding a few
hundred million in stem cell research. This bill would not have increased
that amount. 
The state of California alone is funding $6 billion in human embryonic
stem cell research. That $6 billion in California tax payer dollars could
have been spent to feed the hungry you mentioned but the California
voters decided that funding stem cell research was more important. So the
hungry, sick and poor have to live with the moral standards of not one
person but of the 7,009,814 people in California who voted for
Proposition 71: Stem Cell Research. Funding. Bonds, not the 4,859,401 who
voted against it.
At 08:32 PM 7/19/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Its sad to think that our
government is establishing the standards for morality. Its a shame
that we have to live by the morality of one person, while others go to
bed this very evening hungry, sick and poor. It almost happened
today,except for the stroke of a pen that might have helped someone's
dream. It happened because a single person felt it was the moral
thing to do.
Hitler, in his own way also felt that he was only doing the moral
thing. It took several nations to prove him wrong.
Let's pray that not one of us should die before our time because of a
stroke of a pen. Granted, we won't all live forever, but we all
deserve a fair chance.


Jim
Lubin

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://makoa.org/jim

disAbility Resources:
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Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-20 Thread David K. Kelmer

Hi Bill,This is the key issue, to me, in the wholeembryonic stem cell debate. Some peoplesay that an embryonicstem cell might be used too helpbring about medical cures for mankind, and other people say that using a stem cell from an embryo is degradinghumanlife and can't be used for medical research. Then most of theseembryosare disposed ofdown the drain, while continuing to make more embryos at fertility clinics every day.I just can't get my mind around that reasoning. With Love, CtrlAltDel aka DaveC4/5 Complete - 30 Years PostTexas, USA Bill_J [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wheel can certainly speak for himself/herself. I think there are people who (20 years from now) might come down with ALS or Parkinson's that would disagree. The bill would not kill recent embryos for stem cell research. It was proposing they use the embryos destined to be destroyed anyway to be used.Bill age 55C6 Incomplete since 7/20/68Leesburg, FLFor every action, there is an equal and opposite government program.- Original Message - From: Jim Lubin To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; quad-list@eskimo.com ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed Care to explain that? Death is certain for everyone. Stem cells from human embryos may have the potential to make life better for some but they won't make anyone immortal. Seems to me if he had signed it then it would have meant he had chosen certain death for those embryos funded by the government. At 05:04 PM 7/19/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bush has once again demonstrated bad judgement. He has chosen certain death for some Americans to have money saved for the destruction of another
government.

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed



no, an individual sperm only contains 23 chromosomes need to
be human. That is where I draw the line. It's a human when a human egg
and human sperm combine to have the 46 chromosomes need to be human. It
may seem ridiculous to you but It's basic biology. 
You apparently think it takes longer in the development cycle to be
considered a human. 
At 11:48 AM 7/20/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If we talk about the
potential of 5-day old, 200 cell, unimplanted zygotes, then
let's talk about the potential of an individual sperm. Isn't
it the same potential? Where do you draw the line? It's really pretty
ridiculous. It's time to use common sense. Those ready-for-destruction
zygotes should be used, it's immoral not to. 
Sandy 


Jim
Lubin

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://makoa.org/jim

disAbility Resources:
http://www.makoa.org
Please Help: Inkjet  Toner
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[QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed- (lets pray not)

2006-07-20 Thread wheelchair





lol. Hitler was the first one I could think of he always seems to 
be the one, but we know the experiments that were done by the Japanese during 
WWII.
On issues like this, I always wish that I had the wisdom of Solomon before 
I tried to elaborate on sensitive subjects. There are some very well 
educated, wise and smart people on both sides of this issue fighting for the 
cause. I just hope the decisions we suppose are the right ones. If 
not
W

In a message dated 7/20/2006 2:03:26 PM Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Since you want to compare Bush to Hitler and said it took several 
  nations to prove him wrong...As far as standard of morality when it comes 
  to doing medical research on human embryos, as far as I have been able to find 
  so correct me if I am mistaken, Canada and the European Nation countries also 
  do not fund research on human embryos. Only China and South Korea 
  do.

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed







Both of these are a potential human becauseeither one still needs help to get there.


Mark

---Original Message---


From: Jim Lubin
Date: 07/20/06 14:34:09
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; quad-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed
no, an individual sperm only contains 23 chromosomes need to be human. That is where I draw the line. It's a human when a human egg and human sperm combine to have the 46 chromosomes need to be human. It may seem ridiculous to you but It's basic biology. You apparently think it takes longer in the development cycle to be considered a human. At 11:48 AM 7/20/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If we talk about the "potential" of 5-day old, 200 cell, unimplanted zygotes, then let's talk about the "potential" of an individual sperm. Isn't it the same potential? Where do you draw the line? It's really pretty ridiculous. It's time to use common sense. Those ready-for-destruction zygotes should be used, it's immoral not to. Sandy 
Jim Lubin [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://makoa.org/jim disAbility Resources: http://www.makoa.orgPlease Help: Inkjet  Toner Cartridge Recycling

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-20 Thread StubanRN




Potential is the key word - whether 23 or 46 chromosomes.

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed







Let me get this straight, if you throw the embryos in the trash they're called left over waste.
If you research them, your killing human beings.


Mark


---Original Message---


From: Jim Lubin
Date: 07/20/06 12:54:39
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; quad-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed
(O'C, I'm copying this from comments I made on another list to respond to you)At 07:35 PM 7/19/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Where were these EXTRA embryos headed otherwise Jim? I thought 'we' were going to try to use these EXTRA embryos that were going to be destroyed for medical research BEFORE we destroyed them. I thought 'we' were going to make eyeballs, kidneys, and neurons with these stem cells before we flushed the leftovers. I'm sure I'm missing something here. Please fill in the blanks.O'CI've never thought of myself as part of the "Christian Right" as you say (I am a Roman Catholic) but agree with president Bush on this and I will explain way.I do belive that a human egg and human sperm make a human being from the time they are joined, from that point the zygote contains all the 46 chromosomes need to be human. It's called an embryo after about 10 days. Being a human, it is entitled to protection to life from the Government. Therefore, the Government should not be funding the destruction of life for the purpose of research.Now your opinion of when a human is a human and entitled to protection obviously differs from mine and president Bush. You can decide for yourself when a human becomes a human that is entitled to protection. Some people thing after birth and not before. I'm against IVF treatments as well because it creates extra embryos in the process. As for using those extra embryos in research for the possible benefit of others, just because they are going to be destroyed anyway, following that reasoning, here's my problem with that. A person with a traumatic brain injury or in a coma being kept alive on ventilator will never be completely healed and will die without the life-support, so why not harvest their body parts to improve someone else's life? I see both equally wrong. The Nazi's conducted medical research on the people they were going to kill anyway. I see it as the same.Now, if scientist want to use stem cells derived from a human egg and another cell, somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT), I don't consider that a human and have no problem with research on those stem cells.

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-20 Thread Oconnelldb






That's my problem too Mark. Kill the embryo today and it's ok, 
kill it next week and it's murder. Not in MY book.

Now to clarify another point, I believe that a soul does not enter an 
embryo until it draws it's first breath. That would be when it is born and 
sufficiently mature to breathe. Killing a human with no soul is slightly 
less 'evil' that killing one with a soul. 

I also believe that our creator is marveling at our ability to manipulate 
HIS building blocks to make up for HIS oversights. The spinal cord is 
definitely an inferior design compared with some of nature's regenerative 
components. I'm sureHE is smiling and wondering what we will 
come up with next - after all, we are using the brain HE gave us.

I personally don't think HE's all that with us recycling physical parts 
since we haven't a clue how to tinker with the spiritual part,. yet.
Maybe HE will make HIS wishes known if and when we get there.
O'C




In a message dated 7/20/2006 12:47:38 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  


  
Let me get this straight, if you throw the embryos in the trash 
they're called left over waste.
If you research them, your killing human beings.


Mark


---Original 
Message---


From: Jim 
Lubin
Date: 07/20/06 
12:54:39
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; quad-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] 
Stem Cell Bill Killed
(O'C, I'm copying this from comments I 
made on another list to respond to you)At 07:35 PM 7/19/2006, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Where were these EXTRA embryos headed otherwise 
Jim? I thought 'we' were going to try to use these 
EXTRA embryos that were going to be destroyed for medical research 
BEFORE we destroyed them. I thought 'we' were going to make 
eyeballs, kidneys, and neurons with these stem cells before we flushed 
the leftovers. I'm sure I'm missing something here. Please 
fill in the blanks.O'CI've never 
thought of myself as part of the "Christian Right" as you say (I am a 
Roman Catholic) but agree with president Bush on this and I will explain 
way.I do belive that a human egg and human sperm make a human 
being from the time they are joined, from that point the zygote contains 
all the 46 chromosomes need to be human. It's called an embryo after 
about 10 days. Being a human, it is entitled to protection to life from 
the Government. Therefore, the Government should not be funding the 
destruction of life for the purpose of research.Now your opinion 
of when a human is a human and entitled to protection obviously differs 
from mine and president Bush. You can decide for yourself when a human 
becomes a human that is entitled to protection. Some people thing after 
birth and not before. I'm against IVF treatments as well because 
it creates extra embryos in the process. As for using those 
extra embryos in research for the possible benefit of others, just 
because they are going to be destroyed anyway, following that reasoning, 
here's my problem with that. A person with a traumatic brain injury or 
in a coma being kept alive on ventilator will never be completely healed 
and will die without the life-support, so why not harvest their body 
parts to improve someone else's life? I see both equally wrong. 
The Nazi's conducted medical research on the people they were going to 
kill anyway. I see it as the same.Now, if scientist want to use 
stem cells derived from a human egg and another cell, somatic cell 
nuclear transfer (SCNT), I don't consider that a human and have no 
problem with research on those stem cells. 


  

  
  





Dave 
www.daveoconnell.com 
c3-inc-1967

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-20 Thread StubanRN




If we talk about the "potential" of 5-day old, 200 cell, unimplanted 
zygotes, then let's talk about the "potential" of an individual sperm. Isn't it 
the same potential? Where do you draw the line? It's really pretty ridiculous. 
It's time to use common sense. Those ready-for-destruction zygotes should be 
used, it's immoral not to. Sandy

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed



I think both are wrong. 
I don't think they should have created them in the first place for IVF,
but since they exist then keep them on life support (i.e. frozen)
indefinitely. They are not something that should be killed (i.e. by
removing stem cells) to possibly make another persons life better. I have
a moral problem with taking one life to improve another persons
life.
Embryos left over from IVF are not the only source for stem cells.
(2006.06.27: Research on Alternative Sources of Pluripotent Stem Cells,

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t060627.html )
So I feel those sources should pursued since there would be no moral or
ethical concerns. I'm all for scientific advancement that does not
conflict with my morals and ethics. 
At 12:47 PM 7/20/2006, RollinOn wrote:
Let me get this straight, if you
throw the embryos in the trash they're called left over waste.
If you research them, your killing human beings.


Jim
Lubin

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://makoa.org/jim

disAbility Resources:
http://www.makoa.org
Please Help: Inkjet  Toner
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Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

2006-07-20 Thread paul38


I beg to differ with you,I am not living for the cure,I am living life to the hilt.Why not help many people with a myriad of mind and mobility issues?Let's get busy researching stem cells insteading of discarding them.I need to go now.I will be able to discuss this issue at any time. Keep on rollin' and let's start opening up all that stem cells have to offer. Peace,
Paul
-- Original message -- From: Jim Lubin [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think both are wrong. I don't think they should have created them in the first place for IVF, but since they exist then keep them on life support (i.e. frozen) indefinitely. They are not something that should be killed (i.e. by removing stem cells) to possibly make another persons life better. I have a moral problem with taking one life to improve another persons life.Embryos left over from IVF are not the only source for stem cells. (2006.06.27: Research on Alternative Sources of Pluripotent Stem Cells, http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t060627.html )So I feel those sources should pursued since there would be no moral or ethical concerns. I'm all for scientific advancement that does not conf!
 lict wi
th my morals and ethics. At 12:47 PM 7/20/2006, RollinOn wrote:
Let me get this straight, if you throw the embryos in the trash they're called left over waste.If you research them, your killing human beings.
Jim Lubin [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://makoa.org/jim disAbility Resources: http://www.makoa.orgPlease Help: Inkjet  Toner Cartridge Recycling

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed




The "moral" right have hijacked the republicans and turned them into idiots. If using embryonic stem cells is killing life then is washing them down the drain holding them in high esteem. By Bushes reasoning we should be closing invitro-fertilization clinics. Fat chance. Who are the boobs, morons, mental defectives and slack jawed mouth breathers that follow him in his fear of science, logic and history. 

john

In a message dated 7/19/2006 6:35:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Sad isn't it.


Mark

---Original Message---


From: ALAN LABARR
Date: 07/19/06 17:33:33
To: RollinOn; Quad List; Rick Caseltine
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

yes, mark. right on. whatever rove says, bush does. that's why they won't let him speak on his own. look what happens when he gets caught speaking without a rove script. he gets caught saying sh*t.

alan

- Original Message - 
From: RollinOn 
To: Quad List ; Rick Caseltine 
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed





What af...ing hypocritical moron we have leading us!
He candrop bombs on innocent women and children and systematically lie to the whole world but this is "Morally Wrong"!
We need a leader!


Mark

---Original Message---


From: Rick Caseltine
Date: 07/19/06 16:06:08
To: Quad List
Subject: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed

Bush uses first-ever veto to kill stem cell bill 32
minutes ago



WASHINGTON (AFP) - USPresident George W. Bush
used his veto for the first time since taking office,
blocking a bill that would have expanded federal
funding for embryonic stem cell research.

"It crosses a moral boundary that our decent society
needs to respect, so I vetoed it," Bush said in
remarks at the White House, saying that in rejecting
the legislation he is "keeping the promise I made to
the American people.

"As science brings us ever closer to unlocking the
secrets of human biology, it also offers temptations
to manipulate human life and violate human dignity,"
said Bush.

"Our conscience and history as a nation demand that we
resist this temptation," Bush said.

The stem cell research endorsed by the Senate on
Tuesday would have used embryos -- some consisting of
just a handful of cells -- left over from in vitro
fertilization (IVF) procedures.

The president had long vowed to veto the bill because
of his deeply held moral beliefs that destroying human
life is wrong -- even in its earliest form, and even
in the interest of research that could lead to
potentially life-saving medical breakthroughs.

Bush made the announcement at a White House signing
ceremony for alternative bioethics legislation known
as "The Fetus Farming Prohibition Act," making it a
crime to initiate a pregnancy for the sole purpose of
obtaining human organs or tissue for research.

Present for the announcement were several families
with "snowflake babies" -- children conceived via
donated embryos left over from IVF treatments.

The president vetoed the Stem Cell Research
Enhancement Act despite widespread support by the US
public and ardent backers in Congress, who on
Wednesday urged Bush to reconsider his stance.

Stem cell research advocates say the technique shows
promise for the treatment of degenerative diseases
such as Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, and for diabetes.

The bill would have lifted rules set by Bush in 2001
making federal funds available only for research on a
small number of embryonic stem cell lines which
existed at that time.

Government money is barred from supporting work on new
lines derived from human embryos -- a restriction that
opponents say hampers overall research.

In London, Martin Rees, the president of the Royal
Society -- Britain's de facto academy of sciences --
said the US policy "is slowing down the global effort
to develop therapies for a range of diseases and
illnesses."

"If the present restrictions remain, it would surely
mean that the United States will continue to fall
behind in this important and exciting area," said
Rees.

The Senate approved the measure by a 63-37 vote -- a
margin too small to override a presidential veto.
Nevertheless, 41 Senate Democrats sent a letter to
Majority Leader Bill Frist, urging him to lobby
support among congressional Republicans to overturn
Bush's veto.

"We are pleased that you supported this important
legislation and know that you recognize the enormous
potential of this research for discovering new cures
and therapies for diseases such as diabetes,
Parkinsons disease and spinal cord injuries.

"The only chance for overriding this veto rests with
you and the Republican caucuses in the House and the
Senate.

"Millions of patients and their families across the
nation cannot afford to wait any longer for the
enactment of this urgently needed legislation," the
Democratic lawmakers wrote.

"

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed




he just made it impossible to do stem cell research in a facility that accepts gov't funding. A little technicallity that makes 97% of the medical fasilities in the US unavailable for this research.I hope he watches his children die of a slow debiltating disease that would have been curable in 5 years.

john


In a message dated 7/19/2006 11:44:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

George Bush did not kill research on stem cells,he just refused to fund it with taxpayers money. Like many other sickness and diseases, researchers continuing on with private donations and private fundraisers. Any person who wants to sit around and wait for the government to take action on important issues that they may benefit from I suggest is wasting their time. Most cures in this country have been discovered through RD of private companies in the perseverance of medical scientists and doctors funded by private donations.

T. Houston C5 C6

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed




The last cure medicine came thru massive gov't effort. Remember polio. Yup. Last time medicine cured anything. Of course, people still refude the vaccine for their children because it would be God's will if they became infected. You don't see many refusing penecillan to fight syphilus, even tho several churches denounced it for destroying a curse from god. 
Our president has signed 10 billion in research for a "small" thermo-neuclear device as a bunker vaporizer. How freakin humane can this SOB get? 
It is only immoral to kill people untill they areable to to be terrified by their demise? Our president won't burn in hell, he is Satan!

john

In a message dated 7/19/2006 11:47:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


In a message dated 7/19/2006 10:44:08 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Most cures in this country have been discovered through RD of private companies in the perseverance of medical scientists and doctors funded by private donations.

T. Houston C5 C6

That I could agree on, if they applied the same principles to war. Keep all government money out of it. (I'm only wishing, lol)
W

Re: [QUAD-L] Stem Cell Bill Killed