[RBW] Re: Help with touring route suggestions leaving Seattle, WA

[bo richardson]

there is a wonderful bike hostel just outside friday harbor
ask a local or look it up

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[RBW] Re: Can someone check my wheel size math

[drew]

Yeah. Point taken.
It was, in my head, an economical "oh I could just use my pretty good road 
wheel set and then I would only have to buy a heavy duty 650b set and that is 
only x amount of $$$ blah blah"

You guys are right though.

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Bob K.]

I did a few 50+ mile rides with Albatross bars on my Sam Hillborne. Ultimately, 
I changed them out for Albastache because the sweep of the Albatross made me 
feel cramped. I like the Albastache setup and pull a trailer with my 2.5 year 
old using that bike all the time. Works like a charm. Worked fine with the 
Albatross, too.

I've also done long rides with a Surly Open Bar and a Jones Loop Bar. Both are 
great. I prefer the Jones, but the Surly was super comfy on a mostly off-road 
tour. 

I second what everyone above said about comfort being king. If I had to choose 
one of the aforementioned bars, I'd go Jones. Plenty of hand positions, and all 
of them are comfy.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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[RBW] Re: Can someone check my wheel size math

[dougP]

I agree that adjusting brake height seems a lot of trouble, more than you 
would be willing to do on a casual basis.  Think about the fiddling you do 
now just changing pads once you've got the brakes dialed in.  

Assuming say 42 mm for off road & 30 mm on road, you're looking at a 
theoretical 12 mm difference in radius, or call it a skinny inch in 
diameter.  Worth all the futzing?  Maybe not.  Same logic for 42 on road 
and 54 for offroad.  

My bias is not to even bother even changing tires, but then again I wind up 
riding alone a lot, too.

dougP

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 5:18:43 PM UTC-7, drew wrote:
>
> Ok.
> Recent thread about me downsizing to one (yeah right) has me pretty well 
> set on keeping the hunqapillar and getting a second Wheelset for roadier 
> rides. 
> Here is my current bizarre thought, which admittedly sounds silly or too 
> good to be true. Most of this relies on the motolite brake vertical 
> adjustment and/or loss of power when adjusted. My math says that id need to 
> raise them 19mm, which looks doable, but may impact their power.
>
> -Sell 54cm 700c hunq
> -Buy 56cm 650b hunq
> -install Paul motolites
> -use fat tired 650b wheelset for dirt/tour
> -keep/use skinnier 700c wheelset for road use
>
> So what else am I missing? I know it would raise the bb a bit. I know the 
> brake adjustment for swapping wheel sets isn't ideal, but the Paul's adjust 
> super easy. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Help with touring route suggestions leaving Seattle, WA

[Ryan Thompson]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.  I think we're really leaning towards 
trying to put together a route that incorporates the San Juan Islands.

Ryan

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 1:50:44 PM UTC-4, Ryan Thompson wrote:
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> My wife and I are celebrating our 15th anniversary this summer and have 
> decided to drop our kids off with the grandparents so we can do some 
> bicycle touring.  We are seriously considering shipping our bikes from 
> Arlington, Virginia to a friend of ours in Seattle and heading out for 3-4 
> days of riding.  We're novices when it comes to touring but have done some 
> shorter overnights around the DC area.r
>
> I've started googling route options for the area but it's a little 
> overwhelming, so I figured the group could point me in the right direction. 
>  Can anyone familiar with the area provide some suggestions for a route 
> either leaving Seattle or starting within a reasonable distance by public 
> transit, and making a loop returning 3-4 days later?  My wife does not want 
> to camp so I was thinking of an inn to inn ride.  We may be flexible on the 
> camping thing I would just need to bring more stuff.  I was thinking 40-60 
> miles a day considering we are flatlanders, so depending on the elevation 
> mileage may decrease.  Trip would be taking place the last week of June or 
> first week of July (I know, not a lot of time to plan). I wouldn't mind 
> incorporating some off road trials as long as it's not to technical.  
>
> Riv content: we plan on riding our Sam Hillborne and Cheviot.
>
> Thanks,
> Ryan
> Arlington, VA
>

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[RBW] Can someone check my wheel size math

[Justin, Oakland]

I would predict you almost never make the 700c swap. 

Just get a 650b wheelset for the road. 650b x 42 is great on the road. 

-J

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[RBW] Can someone check my wheel size math

[Joe Bernard]

My only question is how often you would actually make the swaps, but if you're 
buying a 650b bike and already have 700c wheels..go for it!

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[RBW] Help with touring route suggestions leaving Seattle, WA

[Ty Graham]

In a completely different vein, I'd recommend riding a chunk of the Oregon 
coast from Astoria to as far as you feel like. 
I road Astoria to San Francisco in 2014 and I'm trying to do it again this 
year. Great roads, beautiful scenery, lots of motels. And beaches. 
There's a cool ride from Portland, take light rail to Hillsboro, then ride like 
90 miles to Astoria. There's a midway B I've never done it, but talked to 
folks on my ride that did it. 
I rode from Amtrak in Kelso, WA to Cathlamet a fun little town. There's a funky 
little ferry across the Columbia, then a 30 mile or so ride into Astoria. I've 
also heard the ride on the WA side to the mouth of the Columbia is cool. 
There's a longish bridge to take you into Astoria. 
Astoria is a cool town and there's lots of Lewis and Clark side trips all 
around there. 
I never took it, but talked to folks that were using a shuttle bus to return 
from Florence or further S on the Oregon coast all the way to Astoria. 
There's all kinds of discussion of these rides and trip details. 

Ty Seattle


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[RBW] Help with touring route suggestions leaving Seattle, WA

[Ty Graham]

Hi seattle resident here. I'd recommend the San Juan islands. Washington State 
Ferries are great for bikes, you get to cut the hellish lines. Lopez is my 
favorite island, I go there twice every summer. Beautiful and laid back 
cycling. Camping is great, beach sites!, at Spencer Spit state park. Lots of 
B type place all over the island. I'd recommend day excursions to Mt 
Constitution and Moran state park. 
Also, if the Orca are around, Lime Kiln park is an amazing place to sit and 
watch them. You can check on the web to see if they're around or where they 
are. Only found them one time, but it was a top 10 experience, worth the try. 
This also is a good day trip from Lopez, though there are plenty of nice places 
to stay in Friday Harbor.

ty seattle
2000 Atlantis

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[RBW] Can someone check my wheel size math

[drew]

Ok.
Recent thread about me downsizing to one (yeah right) has me pretty well set on 
keeping the hunqapillar and getting a second Wheelset for roadier rides. 
Here is my current bizarre thought, which admittedly sounds silly or too good 
to be true. Most of this relies on the motolite brake vertical adjustment 
and/or loss of power when adjusted. My math says that id need to raise them 
19mm, which looks doable, but may impact their power.

-Sell 54cm 700c hunq
-Buy 56cm 650b hunq
-install Paul motolites
-use fat tired 650b wheelset for dirt/tour
-keep/use skinnier 700c wheelset for road use

So what else am I missing? I know it would raise the bb a bit. I know the brake 
adjustment for swapping wheel sets isn't ideal, but the Paul's adjust super 
easy. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Ron Mc]

Except you have to buy the stem first, and you will only have minor bar 
adjustments available after you get the saddle right

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Patrick Moore]

+1 -- well, almost. Get the saddle where it should be, and then get the bar
where it should be.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> [...] the most important thing is getting the saddle in the right place
>
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[RBW] Re: Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Ron Mc]

Four different frame sizes, four different long-distance riding positions.  
While I started with reach measurements for the stems, and there are some 
limited adjustments in stem height and bar rotation, 


 

  


  


the most important thing is getting the saddle in the right place

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[RBW] Re: Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Ron Mc]

Garth, that must be you.  I'm 6'3" but all my height is in my limbs.  I 
"outgrew" the 120mm stem on my old GP, which is what sent me to moustache 
bars, and I found a perfect solution.  
Long top-tube bikes don't work for me, and the longest stem I run now is 
100mm on my 64 cm Moser with short-reach drop bars.  
My buddy who is also 6'3" sit 3" taller than me - all his height is in his 
torso, sets up every bike with maximum reach.  

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:25:44 PM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>
>
>  This is why I have always insisted on the longest TT frames with the 
> longest stems I could find since I became aware of this way back when. But 
> even still, with too short of a TT, even a long 150mm riser stem could not 
> save the awkward feel I had on ye ol' 1983 Stumpumper ! . Now it's either 
> custom or a rather un-common pre-configured frame from someone, like the 
> Bomba frame works just enough with a 13cm. stem.  Even still, I can see 
> another frame even longer in TT and front-center and chainstays would be 
> awesome !   I remember when I had a custom sport-tour frame made in '99 I 
> insisted on a 3cm longer TT that what their fit-kit thingy "told them".  
> Hah !  I was tired of all large frames having 59cm or less TT's !  Many 
> still are even today. It was good with drop bars and 0 degree rise 13cm 
> stem, but when I changed to Alba bars even with a long and high stem it 
> just doesn't quite feel right, too much on top of the front end, "tippy" I 
> would describe it as. And again, it has a somewhat higher BB than the Bomba 
> which is glaringly self evident now !  I got some albastache bars to try 
> but just have not felt like tinkering with it, yet .   
>

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Re: [RBW] Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Ron Mc]

I'm running a 70mm stem with my moustache bars. 
I can ride all day on the hoods (farthest reach position) without ever 
putting any weight on them.  
Still, it's about saddle/knee position.  
On my 24" International, I'm good with a Nitto S83 offset seatpost, up 
high, and the saddle pushed all the way forward, putting my knees in the 
right place for this ride height and reach.
When I had the same cockpit on a 25-1/2" Grand Prix, I was on a Thomson 
zero-offset seatpost, and essentially the saddle height and position 
adjusted to get the same ride height.  

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[RBW] Re: Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Garth]

 This is why I have always insisted on the longest TT frames with the 
longest stems I could find since I became aware of this way back when. But 
even still, with too short of a TT, even a long 150mm riser stem could not 
save the awkward feel I had on ye ol' 1983 Stumpumper ! . Now it's either 
custom or a rather un-common pre-configured frame from someone, like the 
Bomba frame works just enough with a 13cm. stem.  Even still, I can see 
another frame even longer in TT and front-center and chainstays would be 
awesome !   I remember when I had a custom sport-tour frame made in '99 I 
insisted on a 3cm longer TT that what their fit-kit thingy "told them".  
Hah !  I was tired of all large frames having 59cm or less TT's !  Many 
still are even today. It was good with drop bars and 0 degree rise 13cm 
stem, but when I changed to Alba bars even with a long and high stem it 
just doesn't quite feel right, too much on top of the front end, "tippy" I 
would describe it as. And again, it has a somewhat higher BB than the Bomba 
which is glaringly self evident now !  I got some albastache bars to try 
but just have not felt like tinkering with it, yet .   

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Re: [RBW] Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Clayton.sf]

My body demands the bars in different locations depending on the bike to be 
comfortable.

 Bob Jackson track bike - below saddle by about a 2cm. Rando Boulder about 1cm 
below. Jones a tad above saddle height, Cheviot about 3cm above saddle height. 
Have never measured reach but assume that it is all over the place too. All 4 
bikes are comfortable in their way for 100+ mile days. For me there is no 
dogmatic one setup fits all - it varies from bike to bike, but each one is very 
particular about where the bars go.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/03/2017 06:46 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

Yes, I've experienced this phenomenon with a bar being too close. There seems to be a 
point at which a bar is so close that a rider's hands/arms react by trying to "push 
through" to the proper location, resulting in too much hand pressure on the bar. It 
sounds counterintuitive that a closer bar - creating a more upright position - would 
cause discomfort, but I've had Patrick's experience of reducing hand pressure by moving 
the bars forward.



As have I.  Shockingly counterintuitive .

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[RBW] Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, I've experienced this phenomenon with a bar being too close. There seems 
to be a point at which a bar is so close that a rider's hands/arms react by 
trying to "push through" to the proper location, resulting in too much hand 
pressure on the bar. It sounds counterintuitive that a closer bar - creating a 
more upright position - would cause discomfort, but I've had Patrick's 
experience of reducing hand pressure by moving the bars forward.  

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[RBW] Re: OT: June 2 blahg

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

A little like tubulars vs. clinchers, analogy-wise. Sorta. In a way.

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 4:18:40 PM UTC-4, Christopher Cote wrote:
>
> I have been seeing a resurgence of film lately. I was a little bummed, I 
> sold all my film camera gear at what was probably the bottom of the market 
> a few years ago. I gave it some thought to get back into it, and then I 
> looked up film processing prices in my area. And then remembered shooting 
> rolls of film and getting a pile of garbage back from the lab. I'll stick 
> with digital, thanks.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 11:21:39 PM UTC-4, dougP wrote:
>>
>> Among other things on today's Blahg, Grant mentions that John at Rivelo 
>> is getting a patch made that reads "Pedal Bikes, Shoot Film", to be 
>> available soon:
>>
>>
>> https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/june-2-pix-and-caps
>>
>> Also lots about film cameras, if that's your thing.  When I has in HS, 
>> way back when, we had a "lab" at home for developing & printing B  Was 
>> not complicated or much trouble to pick up after use.  With the prices GP 
>> mentions for cameras, lenses, etc., old film processing equipment may be 
>> similarly cheap.  I still have B prints I made too many decades ago.
>>
>> dougP
>>
>

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[RBW] Hand comfort and bar position; in particular: stem extension and its effect on hand comfort

[Patrick Moore]

Just rode the Hon Solo one more time.

After suffering recently on a 5+ mile climbing ride on the Dahon Hon Solo,
equipped with the original edition Moustache bar, I installed the 2"
extension on the otherwise no-extension bar mast (thanks for the device,
Joe), and put the same M-bar back on. Same bar, same height, just some 2"
further forward.

The Hon Solo has a folding bar mast with the "stem" clamp directly above
it; no extension at all; so the extension device in question is like
swapping a DL-1 stem for a 55 mm extension.

Quite a noticeable difference, and for the better. The M bar is just about
level with saddle; I had chosen the M bar because it offers considerable
forward reach. But adding a full 2" of additional reach -- bar height and
angle (level with *terra firma*) remaining the same -- I have been very
pleased to experience less pressure on my arms and hands, and this in the
forward "curves" position and in the even more forward hoods position
(hoods attached at the innermost curve of said curves).

So, FWIW. Point: sometimes pushing the bar out further from the saddle can
actually relieve pressure on your arms and hands.

If I can get my brother to swap this M-bar for a decent drop bar, I may try
it; the added 2" extension makes the Dahon apt for a drop bar -- something
it would not tolerate with the bar as close as it is sans extension.

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Ron, Panog, et al! That makes sense and it also makes sense as 
another reason why I so love the Albastache/new Moustache. It's, for me, 
the best of both worlds.

Ron, yes -- not needing/and even better not liking cushion for bars or 
gloves is a sign of proper bars and use of core. Another tip that is hard 
without hip flexability is to initiate every pedal stroke from the core, 
extending down through the hips. If the saddle is set up right, this is 
natural, but the saddle can easily be too high.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:26:50 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>
> @Deacon Patrick
>
> Wind resistance.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Patrick Moore]

Just think: a Hunqapillar or an Atlantis with hydraulic discs, front-wheel
swap-in electric motor, and full-time concierge parking service, and most
radical of all, *no second top tube!* C'mon, Grant!

Seriously, I can believe you. I've not tried hydraulic discs except for the
one time I sampled my next-door-neighbor's new mountain bike up and down
our cul de sac. One finger, and I almost threw myself over the bar.

That said, even the vintage BB7, in its current iterations, is wonderful --
I recall the older version of the BB7 Road that I installed on my
circa-2010 Redline Monocog 29er ('cuz I wanted to use drop bars). Dog!
I installed a 180 mm front rotor, Jagwire housing, and expensive pads --
NDG.* But the newer (2015) model BB7 Roads are just suweeet. Much better
than BB7 Mountains with V brake levers.

All that said, I have to agree with Garth (!!) in saying that ya pays yer
money and takes yer choice. Choose Rivendell handling and "feel" and be
content with rim brakes. Or insist on discs, and go elsewhere. Me, if I had
the $$, I'd very seriously consider buying a Hunq frame and taking it to a
local builder for disc adaptation.

* Technical engineering term for insufficient performance.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> "And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that
> they modulate even better than the best mechanicals."
>
> If you ever want to get brake-spoiled, try hydraulics. Power and
> modulation with light hand pressure out the kazoo; they make even the
> mechanical discs on my folder feel like stopping and old Chevy with drum
> brakes. I purposely avoided mentioning hydros in my earlier comment because
> this thread already has me promoting electric motors and mechanical discs
> for Rivendells. I gotta draw the line somewhere!
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Orc]

What are you trying to stop with them?   I've got 1.5 hydraulic brakes 
sitting in my bike mess at home (I have a plan to put a disc brake onto a 
Bob Yak trailer) and I spent some time with them on a regular bike but 
didn't really see any difference between them and the mechanical discs I 
put onto the thing when I decided that disc brakes were okay to use on it.

-david parsons

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:49:54 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> "And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that 
> they modulate even better than the best mechanicals."
>
> If you ever want to get brake-spoiled, try hydraulics. Power and 
> modulation with light hand pressure out the kazoo; they make even the 
> mechanical discs on my folder feel like stopping and old Chevy with drum 
> brakes. I purposely avoided mentioning hydros in my earlier comment because 
> this thread already has me promoting electric motors and mechanical discs 
> for Rivendells. I gotta draw the line somewhere! 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Joe Bernard]

"And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that they 
modulate even better than the best mechanicals."

If you ever want to get brake-spoiled, try hydraulics. Power and modulation 
with light hand pressure out the kazoo; they make even the mechanical discs on 
my folder feel like stopping and old Chevy with drum brakes. I purposely 
avoided mentioning hydros in my earlier comment because this thread already has 
me promoting electric motors and mechanical discs for Rivendells. I gotta draw 
the line somewhere! 

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[RBW] Re: Help with touring route suggestions leaving Seattle, WA

[bo richardson]

i live in bellingham.
vancouver and the galloping goose is a great ride with a moserate ride type 
companion. i haven t found great food in victoria or sidney although the greek 
place in the side street in sidney is ok/good enough.

getting a place in Port Townsend and doing day rides is a good option. PT has 
good food.

another option might be Mt Vernon and ride up to Edison for freat food at 
tweets.

if you rent a car, stay in bellingham and drive to edison and launch from there.
Bellingham is a bigger better town.

if you cycle out old samish from bellingham you dont need a car...

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[RBW] Re: WTB/WTT Bar End Pods/Thumbie Mounts

[Timothy Orr]

I found a pair! Thanks!!

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 12:06:05 PM UTC-7, Leif Eckstrom wrote:
>
> Hey Tim!
> I'd love to make this trade. 
> Thanks,
> Leif in Chicago
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 1:42:23 PM UTC-5, Timothy Orr wrote:
>>
>> Hey! 
>>
>> I'm hoping to swap my IRD/Silver thumbies for some bar end pods. Anyone 
>> interested in a trade? I'd also be willing to buy some bar end pods. The 
>> Riv site won't have them back in until after a mini-tour I have planned. 
>>
>> Thanks to everyone who reached out from my previous post! 
>> Tim O. 
>> Portland, OR
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[reynoldslugs]

I have flat bars on several bikes, and I enjoy them.  I ride about 60% time 
with drops, about 40% on flat/"alternative" bars. My favorites *by far* are 
One-One Mary's.  The perfect fit for me is to install the upside down (See 
pics).

Many, many long rides (75k and more), mostly with plenty of climbing 
(several thousand vertical feet in most rides)  My totally subjective, non 
scientific, seat-of-the pants assessment: drops are faster and more 
efficient (for reasons others have outlined), but descents are more fun 
with the flat bars - it's easier to brake. 

I tend to ride the flat bars when I am feeling out of shape and my 
neck/back are sore and not happy to be in the drops. 

Here ya go, check em out - on a Bob Jackson road bike and Pereira custom 
road.  I also had Mary's on my Vanilla road for a while, and a Nitto bar my 
old Heron:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157643546486474

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157637495551626

Vanilla:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157648539227913

Heron (with Nitto bars)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157642068014924

Max Beach

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Eric Douglas]

Kent Peterson used to ride very long distances with a flat bar fixed / 
single speed.



On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:28:56 PM UTC-4, Marc Irwin wrote:
>
> I use the Bosco Bars from Rivendell on my touring bike and bike of choice 
> for 100k charity rides.  They not only provide a huge range of hand 
> positions but an even greater range of body postures.  I've never 
> experienced any pain or numbness in my hands since I started using them.
>
> Marc
>
> On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>>
>> Hi everybody, 
>>
>> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
>> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
>> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
>> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
>> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
>> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
>> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>>
>> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may 
>> not work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
>> perspectives!
>>
>> Peter 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Orc]

I've potholed a few rims, and the main damage to them is the brake track.   
You /can/ get the bend out  (one of my potholed rims is a 650b ztr355, 
which can't be replaced for love or money now that Stans has drunk deep 
from the disc brake well, so you can be assured that I fixed that wagon and 
still have the wheelset around.   Sadly, the bead is damaged enough so that 
I don't dare run Confreries tubeless on it anymore) but if you don't it's 
really not very good for rim braking anymore.   With disc brakes, just 
shrug and keep riding.

And about those brake pads...   I still not-so-fondly recall the set of new 
V-O squeal-less pads I took out on a paved-road 200k one February and 
returned with the front pads worn down to the metal carrier. My single 
disc braked machine, on the other hand, has had BB5s on it for ~3k miles 
now and is still using the original pads in the rear (I swapped the front 
pads when they started getting thin after ~2k miles, but the rear pads keep 
telling me that I was being overly pessimistic about that) which is the 
same milage ballpark as all of the rim brake pads I've used in the 50k 
miles I've ridden over the past few years.

Disc brakes aren't that new anymore, either, and a lot of the really dumb 
designs have already been caught and weeded out.There's not much reason 
for Riv to switch over to them ($300 for a rim swap every now and then is 
not much compared to the cost of a fully kitted-out machine) unless Grant 
decides to start designing & selling full-carbon racing MTBs.

-david parsons




On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 12:24:50 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
>   If I am going to compare costs between this and that, it has to be the 
> total cost of ownership.  So sure, rims and pads may wear down and require 
> replacement, but a wheel of disc brakes is not immune to the same and/or 
> it's own issues. They are still relatively new so long term costs are often 
> overlooked and/or incalculable.  Any rim can still crack or fail for 
> infinite reasons. Disc brake pad lifespan, is it as good as rim pads ? 
> Compare the costs of replacing each type of pads also. Also the initial 
> cost of the disc brake system itself is factored. And of course, "stuff 
> happens" that no one can predict, and so can make such comparisons 
> unreliable at best.  So I say just ride what is ridden and there is not 
> need to justify it to anyone. 
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:40:58 PM UTC-4, Orc wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:50:41 AM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm probably becoming a predictable bore on disc brakes, but still and 
>>> for the record, except for the few conditions where it's an obvious benefit 
>>> to get the brake away from the tire (mudglop and grit), the rim IS a disc, 
>>> and being bigger in diameter, it's more powerful and more effective. Yes, 
>>> it can become a wobbly braking surface if you trash your rim, 
>>>
>>
>> I think that's the actual selling point for disc brakes;  it's cheaper to 
>> replace a rotor than it is to replace a rim.   (Not so much so in 700c, but 
>> in boutique sizes like 650b rims are becoming eye-poppingly expensive and 
>> if you venture away from the Velocity offerings there's not certainty that 
>> you'll be able to replace them when they wear down.)
>>
>> -david parsons
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: OT: June 2 blahg

[Christopher Cote]

I have been seeing a resurgence of film lately. I was a little bummed, I 
sold all my film camera gear at what was probably the bottom of the market 
a few years ago. I gave it some thought to get back into it, and then I 
looked up film processing prices in my area. And then remembered shooting 
rolls of film and getting a pile of garbage back from the lab. I'll stick 
with digital, thanks.

Chris


On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 11:21:39 PM UTC-4, dougP wrote:
>
> Among other things on today's Blahg, Grant mentions that John at Rivelo is 
> getting a patch made that reads "Pedal Bikes, Shoot Film", to be available 
> soon:
>
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/june-2-pix-and-caps
>
> Also lots about film cameras, if that's your thing.  When I has in HS, way 
> back when, we had a "lab" at home for developing & printing B  Was not 
> complicated or much trouble to pick up after use.  With the prices GP 
> mentions for cameras, lenses, etc., old film processing equipment may be 
> similarly cheap.  I still have B prints I made too many decades ago.
>
> dougP
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/03/2017 03:24 PM, Garth wrote:
  If I am going to compare costs between this and that, it has to be 
the total cost of ownership.  So sure, rims and pads may wear down and 
require replacement, but a wheel of disc brakes is not immune to the 
same and/or it's own issues. They are still relatively new so long 
term costs are often overlooked and/or incalculable.  Any rim can 
still crack or fail for infinite reasons.


Riding into a pothole being right up there at the very top of the list 
of oops, need a new rim conditions, and that's irrespective of brake type




Disc brake pad lifespan, is it as good as rim pads ?


We know that to clearly not be the case.  Some disc pads don't last 1 
ride (as evidenced by reports in a recent BQ article).  I have a set of 
brake shoes on my 1991 Spectrum that's still fine and it's been there on 
that bike since 1991.



Compare the costs of replacing each type of pads also. Also the 
initial cost of the disc brake system itself is factored. And of 
course, "stuff happens" that no one can predict, and so can make such 
comparisons unreliable at best. So I say just ride what is ridden and 
there is not need to justify it to anyone.


"It's /your/ money..."


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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Garth]

  If I am going to compare costs between this and that, it has to be the 
total cost of ownership.  So sure, rims and pads may wear down and require 
replacement, but a wheel of disc brakes is not immune to the same and/or 
it's own issues. They are still relatively new so long term costs are often 
overlooked and/or incalculable.  Any rim can still crack or fail for 
infinite reasons. Disc brake pad lifespan, is it as good as rim pads ? 
Compare the costs of replacing each type of pads also. Also the initial 
cost of the disc brake system itself is factored. And of course, "stuff 
happens" that no one can predict, and so can make such comparisons 
unreliable at best.  So I say just ride what is ridden and there is not 
need to justify it to anyone. 




On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 2:40:58 PM UTC-4, Orc wrote:
>
>
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:50:41 AM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> I'm probably becoming a predictable bore on disc brakes, but still and 
>> for the record, except for the few conditions where it's an obvious benefit 
>> to get the brake away from the tire (mudglop and grit), the rim IS a disc, 
>> and being bigger in diameter, it's more powerful and more effective. Yes, 
>> it can become a wobbly braking surface if you trash your rim, 
>>
>
> I think that's the actual selling point for disc brakes;  it's cheaper to 
> replace a rotor than it is to replace a rim.   (Not so much so in 700c, but 
> in boutique sizes like 650b rims are becoming eye-poppingly expensive and 
> if you venture away from the Velocity offerings there's not certainty that 
> you'll be able to replace them when they wear down.)
>
> -david parsons
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Patrick Moore]

I happily use calipers on 3 of my 4 bikes, but for an off road bike with
700C wheels -- = heavy -- discs have some advantages that haven't been
mentioned.

1. IME, they are *not* less efficient than cantilevers or V brakes; in
fact, the mechanical discs I've used are as powerful as most rim brakes
I've used, the Riv set up IRDs with salmons being the one exception, and
even there the cantis' advantage was principally modulation.

And I hear that hydraulic disc brakes are even more powerful and that they
modulate even better than the best mechanicals.

2. You can use very light rims -- tubular rim weight -- because the rims
don't need brake tracks. This may not be important to everyone, but it is
important to some: with 360 gram 50 mm tires and 430 gram rims, you can
have your fat-tired cake without any weight penalty. The difference in my
Rhyno Lites + Big Apple Liteskins (light model!) was over 700 grams per
wheel, and that doesn't count the weight of a fat 29er tube; the newer
wheels are tubeless. (The difference between the *Light* model of the
Snocat and the same *Light* Big Apple was over 800 grams per wheel before
subtracting the weight of the tube -- and adding that of sealant.) Believe
me, removing 700 or 800 grams from each wheel makes the bike feel better!

3. You don't wear out your rim as quickly: in sandy soil, let alone mud,
your rim pads pick up grit. And as David said, it can be expensive to
replace rims, even 700C rims: the Velocity Blunt SS that I use are $83 to
over $100 each online.

There are other practical advantages, too, but these are my own principal
reasons for preferring them for dirt.

For me, there are very practical reasons to prefer discs on bikes ridden in
dirt.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 12:40 PM, Orc  wrote:

>
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:50:41 AM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>>
>> I'm probably becoming a predictable bore on disc brakes, but still and
>> for the record, except for the few conditions where it's an obvious benefit
>> to get the brake away from the tire (mudglop and grit), the rim IS a disc,
>> and being bigger in diameter, it's more powerful and more effective. Yes,
>> it can become a wobbly braking surface if you trash your rim,
>>
>
> I think that's the actual selling point for disc brakes;  it's cheaper to
> replace a rotor than it is to replace a rim.   (Not so much so in 700c, but
> in boutique sizes like 650b rims are becoming eye-poppingly expensive and
> if you venture away from the Velocity offerings there's not certainty that
> you'll be able to replace them when they wear down.)
>
> -david parsons
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Garth]

   I find it surprisingly not surprising at all much of the bike biz has 
gone hog wild for disc brakes. I actually prefer to brake as little and as 
light as possible, and I live in area where there are many 1 mile and under 
steep and curvy rolly polly hills to ride on. I drive my pickup the same 
way. On my '99 F150 which I bought brand new I went about 70,000 miles on 
the original brakes, despite to get into town and go anywhere it's pure 
roller coaster hills up and down.  I let the bike and car roll downhill , 
and just apply brakes intuitively entering corners for the inherent line 
that reveals itself. 

  Some of my way back roads are in very poor condition and many not 
maintained in winter, and they all tend to be with very steep hills. Going 
down can be harem scarem at times for sure, since they are usually sparse 
to dense gravel/rock over a very irregular hard "road" and sometimes 
not-a-road surface.  Sure disc brakes may make it seem not so skittish, 
idk, but I ride these roads so infrequently it hardly warrants buying a 
bike with discs just to test it.  When I rode all those years on my Stumpie 
however, I never had a problem with rim braking down loose rocky hill 
trails and often cow paths on ranches where no bicycle has been. So . .  .. 
much ado about nothing. 

  Everyone is different of course, some like to brake/accelerate 
aggressive/hard everywhere , and that's alright certainly, I just have 
never been that way. If someone wants a Riv-like bike with disc brakes that 
bad there are plenty of custom frame builders to do so for you. But if you 
have experience with different builders/designers of anything it's quite 
apparent they will make only what they agrees with their own sensibilities, 
which is a good thing because thus feel free to make what they'd love to 
make and use themselves and in doing so make it very well.  When you have 
no personal connection to what you are designing/making it just doesn't 
have that intangible quality I cannot find a word for, it's just one of 
those you experience.

  So when I ride a Riv design I ride a Riv designed frame, and I know what 
to expect, and I take it or leave it I like that . 

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[RBW] Re: WTB/WTT Bar End Pods/Thumbie Mounts

[Leif Eckstrom]

Hey Tim!
I'd love to make this trade. 
Thanks,
Leif in Chicago

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 1:42:23 PM UTC-5, Timothy Orr wrote:
>
> Hey! 
>
> I'm hoping to swap my IRD/Silver thumbies for some bar end pods. Anyone 
> interested in a trade? I'd also be willing to buy some bar end pods. The 
> Riv site won't have them back in until after a mini-tour I have planned. 
>
> Thanks to everyone who reached out from my previous post! 
> Tim O. 
> Portland, OR
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Choco-Norm Bar, Tallux Stem, Paul Thumbies, Shimano Bar Ends, Sugino Triple

[Johnny Alien]

Everything is sold.  Thanks, Dave!

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[RBW] WTB/WTT Bar End Pods/Thumbie Mounts

[Timothy Orr]

Hey! 

I'm hoping to swap my IRD/Silver thumbies for some bar end pods. Anyone 
interested in a trade? I'd also be willing to buy some bar end pods. The 
Riv site won't have them back in until after a mini-tour I have planned. 

Thanks to everyone who reached out from my previous post! 
Tim O. 
Portland, OR

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 12:49 PM, Grant Petersen  wrote:
...

 ...

> Bikes aren't lite versions of motor vehicles, and adopting
> motor-technology unnecessarily on bicycles in order to make them appear
> more high tech (and when you see disc brakes on citi-bikes, what else can
> it be?) is legal and fine and may help sales, but it's not something we're
> going to get into. I say this matter-of-factly, not turgidly or anything.
>
>
 What of adopting disc brakes for advantages other than the non-advantage
of appearing more high tech?

The few times that it's been an advantage to have my braking surface away
from mud/glop/wetness have been pivotal moments in safety and self
preservation. You really only need to have one of these moments to realize
the benefit of disc brakes, and a few moments as such just add more value
the solution.

The other advantages I appreciate: ease of running oversized tires that fit
the frame but never or tightly fit in between or under rim-based brakes.

Yet another advantage that sounds good to me but I haven't taken advantage
of yet: ease of swapping different sized wheels/tires. Switch your 650b
daily driver over to 26'er fat tires, or 700c down to 650b+

None of these use-cases seem unnecessarily or seemingly high tech, they
just appear to solve a safety issue while also introducing an ease-of-use
scenario and adaptability opportunity.

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Orc]

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:50:41 AM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> I'm probably becoming a predictable bore on disc brakes, but still and for 
> the record, except for the few conditions where it's an obvious benefit to 
> get the brake away from the tire (mudglop and grit), the rim IS a disc, and 
> being bigger in diameter, it's more powerful and more effective. Yes, it 
> can become a wobbly braking surface if you trash your rim, 
>

I think that's the actual selling point for disc brakes;  it's cheaper to 
replace a rotor than it is to replace a rim.   (Not so much so in 700c, but 
in boutique sizes like 650b rims are becoming eye-poppingly expensive and 
if you venture away from the Velocity offerings there's not certainty that 
you'll be able to replace them when they wear down.)

-david parsons

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Marc Irwin]

I use the Bosco Bars from Rivendell on my touring bike and bike of choice 
for 100k charity rides.  They not only provide a huge range of hand 
positions but an even greater range of body postures.  I've never 
experienced any pain or numbness in my hands since I started using them.

Marc

On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 12:16:50 PM UTC-4, Peter Turskovitch wrote:
>
> Hi everybody, 
>
> I've heard that this is the place to come for advice about "alternative" 
> handlebars. Can anybody recommend a bar for long rides? My problem these 
> days is that I'm pulling a kid trailer and lowering my pace to ride with a 
> new-to-cycling spouse. These factors have reduced my pressure on the 
> pedals, so to speak, and left my torso less supported by my core. My hands 
> are sore! All the same, we're still riding 75 - 100km at a time, so I need 
> something with multiple positions for the long haul. 
>
> Everybody's bodies and needs are different, and what works for one may not 
> work for another, but I would be very interested in hearing some 
> perspectives!
>
> Peter 
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Choco-Norm Bar, Tallux Stem, Paul Thumbies, Shimano Bar Ends, Sugino Triple

['Dave Small' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'll take the Sugino triple if it's still available.  Sorry to reply 
publicly, which I know is discouraged, but the email I just sent to you got 
kicked back to me as undeliverable.  

Dave

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 8:23:21 AM UTC-4, Johnny Alien wrote:
>
> Forgot to mention the crankset length.  170
>
> How about $75 shipped
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Grant Petersen]

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 9:02 AM, drew  wrote:

> I don't know if I would buy one (and since he's already said he's against
> it, it would sorta make me sad) but I think it would be a good move for the
> company and they would sell a lot. It would also help to differentiate the
> models, which are getting pretty overlappy on the dirt and tour side.

Too true, Drew! But---that wasn't the plan-plan. There wasn't actually a
plan-plan, and maybe that steered it in that direction. I've never been a
fan of the one-trick bike or the extreme bike, so the overlappy (I will use
that word a lot from now on) is inevitable. At one time the idea was to
offer foreignese counterparts, just as good but lower priced. That's how
the HunqaLantis and Sam/Homer overlappy.came about. The Roadeo/Roadini
overlappy, same. The differentiation was cost and Country of Origin, but
it's also LIKING or small band of suppliers and not wanting to say NO MORE
FROM YOU!
I'm probably becoming a predictable bore on disc brakes, but still and for
the record, except for the few conditions where it's an obvious benefit to
get the brake away from the tire (mudglop and grit), the rim IS a disc, and
being bigger in diameter, it's more powerful and more effective. Yes, it
can become a wobbly braking surface if you trash your rim, but when you
ride appropriate and good wheels in 2017 how often do you get a wobble?
Once a year, max? Then you deal with it and go back to smoothness for
another few years...
Cars and motorcycles have the disadvantages of weight and speed that rule
out rim brakes, but most bikes (tandems may be an exception) are ideal for
the more mechanically efficient rim brake. Bikes aren't lite versions of
motor vehicles, and adopting motor-technology unnecessarily on bicycles in
order to make them appear more high tech (and when you see disc brakes on
citi-bikes, what else can it be?) is legal and fine and may help sales, but
it's not something we're going to get into. I say this matter-of-factly,
not turgidly or anything.


>
>
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[RBW] WTB Right Side Bar End Shifter Friction

[Mattt]

I need a right side only Bar end shifter that is friction.   Anyone have one 
laying around they don't need?

Thanks,
Matt

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Re: [RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[Jeff Lesperance]

I agree. As I've been attempting to perfect my bike stable, attempting to
have the least amount of bikes for all my possible riding, I've found
myself with 3 of my 5 bikes with disc brakes, and down to one Riv (Rosco
v2) where I had as many as 4 at one time (Hilsen, Hillborne, Romulus,
Rosco) - if there were a disc-braked Hunq and Hillborne/Appa I'd gladly add
them to my stable and send my Space Horse Disc and Troll on to their next
owners.


On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 8:11 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I would buy a Taiwan 650b plus Hunqapillar with disk brakes. I know
> Riv/Grant isn't thrilled with disks, but they're pretty much the future for
> bikes intended to tackle dirt roads. I know some folks perceive them as
> more complex, but after some time with mechanical disks on my folder I've
> found they're similar in fiddliness to v-brakes, and less work (and parts)
> than cantis. Build it, Grant!
>
> Joe Bernard
> Vallejo, CA.
>
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Re: [RBW] OT: June 2 blahg

[Patrick Moore]

What I want is a patch with "Don't Happy/Be Worry" on it.

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[RBW] Re: The BLAHG, eRivs?

[drew]

I don't know if I would buy one (and since he's already said he's against it, 
it would sorta make me sad) but I think it would be a good move for the company 
and they would sell a lot. It would also help to differentiate the models, 
which are getting pretty overlappy on the dirt and tour side. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Patrick Moore]

Not only wind resistance, but loss of power, since you need a certain
minimum angle between hips and torso to bring all possible muscles into
play.

But these are theoretical matters; you can certainly get aero and bent
forward with bars other than drop bars.

On Sat, Jun 3, 2017 at 9:26 AM, panog  wrote:

> @Deacon Patrick
>
> Wind resistance. Wind resistance of an erect upper body, specially against
> a head-on wind, is a significant draw of power if one is to maintain a set
> speed. If this set speed is in the mid to upper teens, aerodynamic drag is
> a significant factor to overcome and becomes much more of an issue when
> one's speed is even higher. On a long trip, this extra power simulates
> constant climbing regardless if the land is flat. Anyone who has spent time
> cycling on coastal areas is well aware of this. The difference in speed is
> in mph not in the milliseconds I think you mentioned (at least to my
> experiences).
> Bending your elbows and tucking could be tolerated for a while but I dont
> find this to be a sustainable position because the pain on your lower back
> after 20 miles or so of maintaining this position will be significant in
> addition to pain on other sensitive parts of your body from the upward
> tilted saddle. Tucking is a temporary, intermittent measure, not the same
> thing as being stretched over the cockpit for long stretches at a time.
> Yes, people have been logging miles and miles on upright positions but
> they do that on low speeds.
>
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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[panog]

@Deacon Patrick

Wind resistance. Wind resistance of an erect upper body, specially against a 
head-on wind, is a significant draw of power if one is to maintain a set speed. 
If this set speed is in the mid to upper teens, aerodynamic drag is a 
significant factor to overcome and becomes much more of an issue when one's 
speed is even higher. On a long trip, this extra power simulates constant 
climbing regardless if the land is flat. Anyone who has spent time cycling on 
coastal areas is well aware of this. The difference in speed is in mph not in 
the milliseconds I think you mentioned (at least to my experiences).
Bending your elbows and tucking could be tolerated for a while but I dont find 
this to be a sustainable position because the pain on your lower back after 20 
miles or so of maintaining this position will be significant in addition to 
pain on other sensitive parts of your body from the upward tilted saddle. 
Tucking is a temporary, intermittent measure, not the same thing as being 
stretched over the cockpit for long stretches at a time.
Yes, people have been logging miles and miles on upright positions but they do 
that on low speeds.

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[RBW] Re: FS / FT Berthoud, Noodle Cockpit, Velocity 650b Cliffhanger wheelset, and and and

['jinxed' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Mavic shoes are SOLD

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ron Mc]

pss - if you do it right, you'll find yourself hating padded gloves.  I've 
ridden nothing but giro zero for 5+ years.  

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:10:46 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Should also add saddle and knee position for the bike and riding position 
> are equally important.  Usually the more upright the ride, the farther back 
> and lower you need the saddle.  
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:06:26 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> I'll throw in my ideas, Deac.  
>> Straight wrists, bent elbows, relaxed neck and shoulders are first 
>> priority.  
>> When you get to the contact on your hands, aside from not wanting to lean 
>> on them, you want to be able to control the bike with a natural relaxed 
>> rest, and of course be able to instantly grab it when needed for greater 
>> control.  
>> When I installed my Map bars, I already had the reach measured from the 
>> outside grip on my long-perfect Moustache cockpit.  
>> It took a couple of hundred miles to get the bar rotation at the stem 
>> correct for long rides, and first ride over 40 miles told me the drop that 
>> was needed.  
>>
>> No matter the length of ride, you should be balancing with your hands, 
>> but your support should be in your core muscles, and not in your neck and 
>> shoulders.  I know you know this, but for others, if you want to test it 
>> sometime, try the next climb leaning into your core muscles and not leaning 
>> on your arms.  You will find an instant burst of spin energy.  
>> My good riding buddy has been taking yoga classes, and went from an 
>> also-ran to the fastest in the group.  
>>
>> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 8:41:05 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be 
>>> true requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar 
>>> system that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that 
>>> inefficiency? The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively 
>>> negligible outside a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is 
>>> wind resistance, which I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply 
>>> bending my elbows when it is a large factor.
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:

 one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all 
 else equal
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ron Mc]

Should also add saddle and knee position for the bike and riding position 
are equally important.  Usually the more upright the ride, the farther back 
and lower you need the saddle.  

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 9:06:26 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I'll throw in my ideas, Deac.  
> Straight wrists, bent elbows, relaxed neck and shoulders are first 
> priority.  
> When you get to the contact on your hands, aside from not wanting to lean 
> on them, you want to be able to control the bike with a natural relaxed 
> rest, and of course be able to instantly grab it when needed for greater 
> control.  
> When I installed my Map bars, I already had the reach measured from the 
> outside grip on my long-perfect Moustache cockpit.  
> It took a couple of hundred miles to get the bar rotation at the stem 
> correct for long rides, and first ride over 40 miles told me the drop that 
> was needed.  
>
> No matter the length of ride, you should be balancing with your hands, but 
> your support should be in your core muscles, and not in your neck and 
> shoulders.  I know you know this, but for others, if you want to test it 
> sometime, try the next climb leaning into your core muscles and not leaning 
> on your arms.  You will find an instant burst of spin energy.  
> My good riding buddy has been taking yoga classes, and went from an 
> also-ran to the fastest in the group.  
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 8:41:05 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be 
>> true requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar 
>> system that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that 
>> inefficiency? The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively 
>> negligible outside a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is 
>> wind resistance, which I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply 
>> bending my elbows when it is a large factor.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>>>
>>> one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all 
>>> else equal
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Ron Mc]

I'll throw in my ideas, Deac.  
Straight wrists, bent elbows, relaxed neck and shoulders are first 
priority.  
When you get to the contact on your hands, aside from not wanting to lean 
on them, you want to be able to control the bike with a natural relaxed 
rest, and of course be able to instantly grab it when needed for greater 
control.  
When I installed my Map bars, I already had the reach measured from the 
outside grip on my long-perfect Moustache cockpit.  
It took a couple of hundred miles to get the bar rotation at the stem 
correct for long rides, and first ride over 40 miles told me the drop that 
was needed.  

No matter the length of ride, you should be balancing with your hands, but 
your support should be in your core muscles, and not in your neck and 
shoulders.  I know you know this, but for others, if you want to test it 
sometime, try the next climb leaning into your core muscles and not leaning 
on your arms.  You will find an instant burst of spin energy.  
My good riding buddy has been taking yoga classes, and went from an 
also-ran to the fastest in the group.  

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 8:41:05 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be true 
> requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar system 
> that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that inefficiency? 
> The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively negligible outside 
> a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is wind resistance, which 
> I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply bending my elbows when it 
> is a large factor.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>>
>> one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all else 
>> equal
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[Deacon Patrick]

Could you help me understand what you are saying here? For this to be true 
requires an inefficiency to be introduced to the "comfy" handlebar system 
that doesn't exist in the drop handlebar system. What is that inefficiency? 
The only inefficiency I experience, and it is relatively negligible outside 
a "hundredths of seconds matter racing scenario," is wind resistance, which 
I can eliminate a large portion of by more deeply bending my elbows when it 
is a large factor.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, June 3, 2017 at 6:00:19 AM UTC-6, panog wrote:
>
> one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of power, all else 
> equal

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[RBW] Re: FT/WTB: Tubus Vega Silver Rear Rack for Nitto/Tubus Rear Rack w/ wider top platform

[Jon BALER]

I don't have one to trade, but the Soma Rakku has one of the widest 
platforms that I have seen.  It also has 6 threaded holes for mounting on 
top of the rack, and is a very beefy rack.

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product/rakku-rear-rack



On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 9:38:50 AM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:
>
> My son is going to be moving from front mounted child seat to a rear 
> mounted one soon and I need a rear rack with a wider platform than I 
> currently have.
> I currently have a Tubus Vega rear rack installed on my Clem, but it 
> appears I need something with a wider top platform to attach a rear child 
> seat.
>
> So..
> I have:
> Tubus Vega Rear Rack - silver, installed new on Clem, rarely carried 
> anything on it, seatstay struts are full-length/un-cut, slightly curved 
> shape to fit
>
> I need:
> Tubus or Nitto Rear Rack that has a wider platform than the Vega
> don't have a specific model I'm set on, so I'm open to whatever
>
> Ideally, I'd want to do a straight trade - could buy outright as well if 
> the price is right.
>
> Older photos of my rack on Clem here: 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BJv-HOIDJ4t/?taken-by=treetopdesigns
>
> Contact off-list if you have something for trade/sale.
> Thanks,
> David
> Chicago
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Choco-Norm Bar, Tallux Stem, Paul Thumbies, Shimano Bar Ends, Sugino Triple

[Johnny Alien]

Forgot to mention the crankset length.  170

How about $75 shipped

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[RBW] FS: Brooks Cambium C17 - Slate

[Johnny Alien]

I have a good condition Cambium C17 in slate.  $90 shipped in the USA.

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[RBW] Does anybody ride 75+ km with non-drop-bar handlebars?

[panog]

Lots of good info on this thread and in particular the point about looking at 
the whole setup, not just the type of bars, to combat hand pain. I use 
Albastache bars on my upright-est bike and the overall setup makes for a very 
comfortable ride. I also use the widest saddle I have ever used (Brooks B17) 
and have it tilted upwards the most I have ever done. As with my more 
aggressive setups, my upright cockpit allows elbows to be kept bend and hands 
to habitually rotate positions on the bars.
As allready discussed on this thread, there are several pluses on this setup 
but there is also one minus and that is loss of speed for the same input of 
power, all else equal, and although speed quite possibly is insignificant to 
you at your current predicament it may become a consideration later on. Just 
another data point to consider along with the rest.

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[RBW] Re: CETMA rack and Sackville ShopSack

[Steve Butcher]

The bag has been sold but the CETMA rack is still available.  Final price 
drop for the rack is $80.00 shipped CONUS.

On Sunday, May 28, 2017 at 9:51:36 AM UTC-5, Steve Butcher wrote:
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
> As I'm continuing to sort through and pass along stuff I'm not using, I'm 
> offering for sale my  5-rail CETMA front cargo rack.  This rack is the 
> older version which attaches to the handlebars and over the axles.  It is 
> powdercoated matte black,  looks quite "industrial" and is rated to haul a 
> substantial load.  This rack does not have the extra attachment points for 
> lights like the newer version.  The rack is in excellent condition always 
> stored indoors with only a rare hairline scratch or small scuff from 
> mounting a basket, the welds are all intact, nothing is bend, and there is 
> no rust.  All mounting hardware is included.  I'm selling because I find I 
> just don't have the need to haul heavy or bulky objects.  I'm thinking 
> $100.00 shipped CONUS.   I'm also offering a large tan Sackville ShopSack 
> which is in like new condition.  I've used it very little, always stored 
> indoors, and never wet.  I'd like to get $70.00 shipped CONUS.  I'd prefer 
> payments via PayPal Family and Friends.  Please PM me if you've any 
> questions.  Thanks.  Steve
>

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[RBW] Re: OT: June 2 blahg

[Orc]

cheapish.   Film is nice, but it's a constant money drain if you use it a 
lot.   And if you use pentasaurs (with the notable exception of the auto 
110) those cheap lenses will live just as happily on a digital back as on a 
film one.  It doesn't help that collectors have started to sweep up old 
film cameras either (it wasn't too many years ago that an old Leica screw 
mount could be found for a few hundred dollars.  Now?  Sigh, it's cheaper 
to buy an r-d1 and you won't have to keep paying to buy & develop film :-( )

-david "auto 110 + ist DS + one throwaway CBC after another" parsons


On Friday, June 2, 2017 at 8:21:39 PM UTC-7, dougP wrote:
>
> Among other things on today's Blahg, Grant mentions that John at Rivelo is 
> getting a patch made that reads "Pedal Bikes, Shoot Film", to be available 
> soon:
>
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/june-2-pix-and-caps
>
> Also lots about film cameras, if that's your thing.  When I has in HS, way 
> back when, we had a "lab" at home for developing & printing B  Was not 
> complicated or much trouble to pick up after use.  With the prices GP 
> mentions for cameras, lenses, etc., old film processing equipment may be 
> similarly cheap.  I still have B prints I made too many decades ago.
>
> dougP
>

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