Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for that comparo; it's useful. I've used the Packer series (Plus and
Sports, or big and small), and the Back-Rollers, not to mention a couple
dozen other types, and for volume and easy on-and-off and flexible
capacity, any of the larger Ortliebs are great. The extendable collars with
separate drawstrings on my Sports Packers have saved my metaphorical hide
on more than one occasion. And you can get a case -- 12 bottles -- of ale
into a Back-Roller.

The problem -- and I fully admit that this is a princess-and-pea problem;
nay, a princess and groat or millet seed; yea!, a veritable grain of
mustard seed problem, but all the Ortliebs have fussy closure systems.

I had not heard of Ortlieb's shopping pannier, and, looking at it, I
thought at first it would be the ideal, but I wonder about the zipper --
zippers IME are a weak link, and I often overstuff my panniers, which --
and this is a question -- might make it (a) hard to zip up the flaps? And
(b) be prone to zipper-split with sudden and unusual pressure? As much as I
don't-very-much-like Fastek buckles, they are certainly durable and secure;
as when, say, you overstuff your bag and then shove down hard with your
weight to close it. Will the zippers hold up in such case?

I'm not concerned with carrying the panniers off the bike, since I wheel
the bike through the store as my grocery trolley. My problem is stuffing
the bags and closing them while in the checkout line.

Back to the Backabike panniers: the salient advantages are: (a) flexible,
but stiff enough to hold their shape when empty; the original Riv bag
family -- Cartwright; I owned Adam and Hoss -- are too floppy. (b) Single,
unencumbered, large compartment. That's it. Amen. No interior pockets -- as
with the Ortliebs -- to snag when you are trying to shove in a last square
box while holding up the bike, which wants to slip, with gloved hands while
wearing dark shades in dim light with sweat pooling in your eyes, the
people behind you fidgeting and muttering disrespectfully. (OK, that is a
worst case scenario, but awkwardness does occur.) (c) Simple closure: flap
with elastic cord and toggle. Fastek buckles and I often do not agree; and
the supposed yank-and-adjust method for strap length always requires me to
use 2 hands to feed the webbing through the slots, and several aborted
trials, before I click and pull.

Perhaps Riv will one day make Backabikes that are 50% larger. I hope they
will save me a pair.

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 11:20 AM Pat Smith  wrote:

> I have had a pair of "Bike-Packer Plus" bags for some time now, not quite
> the same as the "Sport-Packer Classics" you mentioned, but they are the
> same design, just larger (meant for rear instead of front) and with a
> little better material.
>
> So I like a couple things about the Ortlieb Bike Packers - they have a
> small front pocket, they are mostly waterproof (but not like a back
> roller), and they can be over stuffed! The overstuffing comes from a second
> set of draw cords inside the bag that allow the vertical height to be
> increased by several inches. This works well for light and longer items and
> I have used this feature frequently when grocery shopping or bike camping.
>
> So I dislike a one thing about the Bike Packers as well - the ability to
> carry them off bike. I use an Ortlieb Bike Shopper as my daily bag for
> commuting. It's great because it has a simple zip closure and a really
> comfortable permanent handle to carry it off bike. Compared to the Bike
> Shopper the Bike Packer is a super pain to carry. You can either carry it
> by the release strap (not really the purpose) or you can carry it by using
> the shoulder strap. The should strap can be cinched short enough to carry
> by hand, but it's not as comfortable as the Bike Shopper handle. But the
> real drawback here is that the carry strap MUST be removed before cycling.
> There is no way to secure down the carry strap on the Bike Packer and it is
> extremely dangerous as it can catch in your spokes and cause a crash. I've
> read more than one account of this happening online, and I've personally
> left mine on and had it start to get tangled in my spokes - luckily I was
> rolling at a slow speed and stopped immediately.
>
> So here is where I'm at - the Bike Packer (or in your case, you're looking
> at the Sport Packer) is great for touring - it holds a ton and has a nice
> design on bike, but practically speaking it is not great for frequent
> carrying use. I am over the moon with my Ortlieb Bike Shopper for exactly
> your scenario - groceries. Note that I almost never zip closed the BIke
> Shopper, I just leave it open as a tub. It holds a normal paper grocery bag
> worth of groceries just fine if you keep it open, a little less if you try
> to zip it closed.
>
> Patrick in DC
>
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[RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Joe Bernard]

My Front Roller Classics - which may be a newer design than the Bike Packer 
you're using - has a clip near the front/bottom that a carry strap slips into 
for riding. You plug it into the buckles on either side of the roll-top, get 
the top rolled down, then the strap pulls down to the clip to cinch everything 
tight. Nifty design but I don't use my carry straps so they're still in the 
box. When I get around to it I'll mount one and post a pic. 

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[RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Pat Smith]

I have had a pair of "Bike-Packer Plus" bags for some time now, not quite 
the same as the "Sport-Packer Classics" you mentioned, but they are the 
same design, just larger (meant for rear instead of front) and with a 
little better material.

So I like a couple things about the Ortlieb Bike Packers - they have a 
small front pocket, they are mostly waterproof (but not like a back 
roller), and they can be over stuffed! The overstuffing comes from a second 
set of draw cords inside the bag that allow the vertical height to be 
increased by several inches. This works well for light and longer items and 
I have used this feature frequently when grocery shopping or bike camping.

So I dislike a one thing about the Bike Packers as well - the ability to 
carry them off bike. I use an Ortlieb Bike Shopper as my daily bag for 
commuting. It's great because it has a simple zip closure and a really 
comfortable permanent handle to carry it off bike. Compared to the Bike 
Shopper the Bike Packer is a super pain to carry. You can either carry it 
by the release strap (not really the purpose) or you can carry it by using 
the shoulder strap. The should strap can be cinched short enough to carry 
by hand, but it's not as comfortable as the Bike Shopper handle. But the 
real drawback here is that the carry strap MUST be removed before cycling. 
There is no way to secure down the carry strap on the Bike Packer and it is 
extremely dangerous as it can catch in your spokes and cause a crash. I've 
read more than one account of this happening online, and I've personally 
left mine on and had it start to get tangled in my spokes - luckily I was 
rolling at a slow speed and stopped immediately. 

So here is where I'm at - the Bike Packer (or in your case, you're looking 
at the Sport Packer) is great for touring - it holds a ton and has a nice 
design on bike, but practically speaking it is not great for frequent 
carrying use. I am over the moon with my Ortlieb Bike Shopper for exactly 
your scenario - groceries. Note that I almost never zip closed the BIke 
Shopper, I just leave it open as a tub. It holds a normal paper grocery bag 
worth of groceries just fine if you keep it open, a little less if you try 
to zip it closed. 

Patrick in DC

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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

Perhaps one day Rivendell will make a bigger brother (or sister) to the
Backabikes; I'll bite then.

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:50 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Thanks, Joe; saw both pairs. I like the crisp new look of the Bikeabags
> and what seems to be the much stiffer canvas, so I'll hold off for now.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 1:13 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> You might want to take a look at a recent FS post here that lists
>> Baggins, Tubus, etc. He forgot to list them with a price, but his photo
>> link shows Sackville rear bags I've never seen before. They look big and
>> someone attached modern plastic sliders on the back.
>>
>> Or contact me! I have a way vintage Baggins set that also has sliders
>> added (Arkel) that I'm not using at the moment. I'll send pics and we can
>> hash out a deal if you're interested.
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>> Marin County CA.
>>
>> --
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>> .
>>
>
>
> --
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>
>
>

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Patrick Moore
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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Joe; saw both pairs. I like the crisp new look of the Bikeabags and
what seems to be the much stiffer canvas, so I'll hold off for now.



On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 1:13 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> You might want to take a look at a recent FS post here that lists Baggins,
> Tubus, etc. He forgot to list them with a price, but his photo link shows
> Sackville rear bags I've never seen before. They look big and someone
> attached modern plastic sliders on the back.
>
> Or contact me! I have a way vintage Baggins set that also has sliders
> added (Arkel) that I'm not using at the moment. I'll send pics and we can
> hash out a deal if you're interested.
>
> Joe Bernard
> Marin County CA.
>
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Patrick Moore
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[RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Tom Wyland]

My two cents: I haven't used the Backabike, but I commuted for many years 
with a Sackville large saddlebag and no-name canvas panniers with 
drawstring and plastic buckle closure (similar to Carridice Super C).  I'm 
currently commuting with a set of new Ortlieb High Visibility Roll-tops 
(front).  The roll-top closure isn't may favorite. I prefer being able to 
flip open the pannier instead of unrolling it.  The rolling and buckling 
part just drives me nuts for some reason. Probably because it takes two 
hands and is difficult to do on the bike (with my front rack setup). With 
my model the shoulder strap is also part of the closure, clipping down low 
on the front of the bag.  I do however like the positive clip-on Orlieb 
attachment system (QL-2? or 3?), but man, it seems awfully delicate and 
generally not sturdy.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Joe Bernard]

You might want to take a look at a recent FS post here that lists Baggins, 
Tubus, etc. He forgot to list them with a price, but his photo link shows 
Sackville rear bags I've never seen before. They look big and someone attached 
modern plastic sliders on the back. 

Or contact me! I have a way vintage Baggins set that also has sliders added 
(Arkel) that I'm not using at the moment. I'll send pics and we can hash out a 
deal if you're interested.

Joe Bernard
Marin County CA.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, I will check those out.

Now that I look closely, I actually owned a pair of these some years ago
and found them insufficient for some reason; not in volume, certainly, but
I think because they sagged under weight despite the bottom supporting
straps. With the Ortliebs and similar panniers, of course, there is no
attempt to create a rigid box, and the weight is all supported by the back
of the pannier and the mounting clips.

I see that BB offer a pretty generous return policy, too ... Might be worth
it to try them again.

But I like the Bagabike design because it is just a sack -- no attempt to
make it rigid, no neck flaps with drawcords, no adjustable fastek buckle
straps, just a bungee with a toggle and loop fastener.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:46 PM tc  wrote:

> I love the *Banjo Brothers Market Panniers*.  1500 cu in., very well
> made, easy on and off, covered with flap, $50/bag.  I use these on the back
> of my Atlantis, which has the Nitto Big Back Rack (33R).
>
> Tom
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Joe Bernard]

I mean sure, we can have a thread about processed vs. non-processed food and if 
you can carry 90 lbs. of it, but that's not really what you asked. So getting 
back to your question, I have an addendum: Upon further reflection I think the 
Backabikes are a bitter wider and fit a bit more than Front Rollers. But not 
25%. 

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[RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[tc]

I love the *Banjo Brothers Market Panniers*.  1500 cu in., very well made, 
easy on and off, covered with flap, $50/bag.  I use these on the back of my 
Atlantis, which has the Nitto Big Back Rack (33R).

Tom

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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

Volume is necessary when you carry a couple of 5 lb bags of flour plus
various bags of bulkier veg like potatoes and onions, plus big vats of
yogurt and a couple of cheeses and a 12-pack, plus delicate veg like
avocados and tomatoes! I don't buy a great deal of processed foods myself,
but I'm not about to make my own coconut milk or olive oil or Cheddar or
Romano or beer or wine, and while I've often made yogurt, I don't like mine
as much as Mountain High or Brown Cow.

I don't want a system that requires strapping and thought; the whole notion
is stuff and go while those behind me in the checkout line fume and mutter
impatiently.

Aside: The Rollerpackers carry between them 2440 ci, and they'll hold a
12-pack each with room to spare (not that I buy 2 12-packs at once), the
volume of Bagabond and BackaBikes combined. With the front Ortliebs, the
total is 3200+ cu, tho I generally don't use f and r at once.

Patrick Moore, who just made 50 oz of "don't measure, just mix and knead"
bread today that turned out very nicely indeed!

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 7:17 PM 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> My own take is that the combo of the bad-a-bike panniers with the latest
> large saddlebag (whatever it's called) and/or strapping things on the rear
> rack or atop the saddlebag is able to carry 90+ lbs of non-processed whole
> food (less produce, more bulk of eggs, dairy, grains, etc.). Volume is
> really only necessary if most food gotten is processed. The only time I
> need the cargo trailer (Burley's Nomad) for groceries is when I'm getting
> the full week's shopping for six. That's not a comparison with Ortliebs
> though.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 1:16:22 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone used both, and can that person tell me whether the Backabikes
>> hold as much as the Ortliebs? The Ortiliebs are rated at 100 ci more each,
>> but I think that involves the extendable lip at the opening.
>>
>> So: Practically speaking, when you are at the checkout counter hastily
>> dumping groceries -- cans, milk jugs, bags of onions, loaves of bread --
>> into the bag, how do these 2 bags compare in practical capacity and absence
>> of fiddliness?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Joe. I wish the BackaBike's were 25% larger, then they'd be perfect.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:40 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I've owned a large (several, actually) Saddlesack, one Backabike with the
> leather straps/brass buckles, and currently have a set of Front Roller
> Classics which I think are older-name Sport Packers. My completely
> subjective impressions:
>
> Large Saddlebag holds a ton, assuming you have enough clearance between
> saddle and wheel or rack to use all of it. I'm a short guy and this was a
> limiter for me.
>
> Two Backabikes hold more than one Large Saddlesack, and the full capacity
> is always accessible.
>
> Backabikes and Front Roller Classics (roll top) hold about the same.
>
> Backabikes are pretty and the straps hold your bags to the rack nicely,
> buy pulling off for shopping becomes enough of a hassle that you just quit
> doing it. Ortleibs are much easier to work with. In my opinion.
>
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[RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

My own take is that the combo of the bad-a-bike panniers with the latest 
large saddlebag (whatever it's called) and/or strapping things on the rear 
rack or atop the saddlebag is able to carry 90+ lbs of non-processed whole 
food (less produce, more bulk of eggs, dairy, grains, etc.). Volume is 
really only necessary if most food gotten is processed. The only time I 
need the cargo trailer (Burley's Nomad) for groceries is when I'm getting 
the full week's shopping for six. That's not a comparison with Ortliebs 
though.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 1:16:22 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Has anyone used both, and can that person tell me whether the Backabikes 
> hold as much as the Ortliebs? The Ortiliebs are rated at 100 ci more each, 
> but I think that involves the extendable lip at the opening.
>
> So: Practically speaking, when you are at the checkout counter hastily 
> dumping groceries -- cans, milk jugs, bags of onions, loaves of bread -- 
> into the bag, how do these 2 bags compare in practical capacity and absence 
> of fiddliness?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Joe Bernard]

Ack, I missed a naming opportunity. Backabikes become StayOntheBackaBikes!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Joe Bernard]

I've owned a large (several, actually) Saddlesack, one Backabike with the 
leather straps/brass buckles, and currently have a set of Front Roller Classics 
which I think are older-name Sport Packers. My completely subjective 
impressions:

Large Saddlebag holds a ton, assuming you have enough clearance between saddle 
and wheel or rack to use all of it. I'm a short guy and this was a limiter for 
me. 

Two Backabikes hold more than one Large Saddlesack, and the full capacity is 
always accessible. 

Backabikes and Front Roller Classics (roll top) hold about the same. 

Backabikes are pretty and the straps hold your bags to the rack nicely, buy 
pulling off for shopping becomes enough of a hassle that you just quit doing 
it. Ortleibs are much easier to work with. In my opinion.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

+ 1 for others' comments about the attachment systems pro's and con's. I'm
able to wheel my bike thru the stores, so quick on/off isn't as important,
but I do know the annoyance of having frequently to install and remove
Carradice and Rivendell saddlebags.

'Nother question, related: Can anyone report *from personal experience* on
both the carrying capacity and ease of using this between the Large
Sackville saddlebag and these Backabike panniers (Almost wrote "Bikeaback"
which seems just as good a name). I think of adding a Large Sackville to
the Riv errand bike, with pair of Bikeabacks on front lowriders.

--- Just looked; Sackville Large no longer available; in its place, the
Baggabond, 1550 ci. Can anyone tell me if the Baggabond is as large as the
older Sackville Large? At any rate, Baggabond + pr Backabikes = 2350 ci,
effectively identical to the 2441 ci of a pair of  Ortlieb Back Roller
Classics.

But: cost differential would be $496, since the purchase price of my Sports
Packers and Roller whatevers is sunk cost.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:52 PM Elisabeth Sherwood <
elisabeth.sherw...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> While I love the simple look and the fabric of the Backabikes, it seems
> that, with the leather buckle closures, they are meant to be left on one's
> bike. For me, they just wouldn't be useful for things like groceries,
> unfortunately!  (And here in the city I just wouldn't leave bags on
> bicycles, no matter how difficult they are to put on and take off!)
>
> Would love to hear that others have a different experience with them.
>
> Liz
> Washington, DC
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 3:16:22 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone used both, and can that person tell me whether the Backabikes
>> hold as much as the Ortliebs? The Ortiliebs are rated at 100 ci more each,
>> but I think that involves the extendable lip at the opening.
>>
>> So: Practically speaking, when you are at the checkout counter hastily
>> dumping groceries -- cans, milk jugs, bags of onions, loaves of bread --
>> into the bag, how do these 2 bags compare in practical capacity and absence
>> of fiddliness?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
>>
>> ---
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Elisabeth Sherwood]

While I love the simple look and the fabric of the Backabikes, it seems 
that, with the leather buckle closures, they are meant to be left on one's 
bike. For me, they just wouldn't be useful for things like groceries, 
unfortunately!  (And here in the city I just wouldn't leave bags on 
bicycles, no matter how difficult they are to put on and take off!)

Would love to hear that others have a different experience with them.

Liz
Washington, DC



On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 3:16:22 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Has anyone used both, and can that person tell me whether the Backabikes 
> hold as much as the Ortliebs? The Ortiliebs are rated at 100 ci more each, 
> but I think that involves the extendable lip at the opening.
>
> So: Practically speaking, when you are at the checkout counter hastily 
> dumping groceries -- cans, milk jugs, bags of onions, loaves of bread -- 
> into the bag, how do these 2 bags compare in practical capacity and absence 
> of fiddliness?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Backabike bags versus Ortlieb Sports Packer Classics: practical capacity and ease of closure

[Patrick Moore]

'Nother question: Does anyone know of a bag as simply constructed as the
Backabike, and well if not as well made, that is bigger?

A Backabike at about 1,000 ci each would be very nice.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:16 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Has anyone used both, and can that person tell me whether the Backabikes
> hold as much as the Ortliebs? The Ortiliebs are rated at 100 ci more each,
> but I think that involves the extendable lip at the opening.
>
> So: Practically speaking, when you are at the checkout counter hastily
> dumping groceries -- cans, milk jugs, bags of onions, loaves of bread --
> into the bag, how do these 2 bags compare in practical capacity and absence
> of fiddliness?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>
>
>

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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