[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Garth]

Search google for*hot wax chains cycling   . *

Scroll  Pick and choose a link . 

Asking if it's worth it or not , you will get yes it's worth it and no it's 
not.  No surprise .  

A lube is a lube is a lube . those that claim "mine is best" are simply 
defending their choice only.  The "best" is the one you got.  I've done hot 
wax, Squirt Lube water based wax lube, White Lightning Clean Ride petro 
based wax lube, and the usual plethora of oil based stuff.   What I found 
rather silly is that apply wax lubes ... you must clean the chain first 
thereby contradicting "not cleaning the chain" !   Seems like a perfectly 
good waste of factory lube already there. Clean Ride and Squirt are the 
only wax ones that you never ever clean the chain for the life of the chain 
past the initial cleaning, you reapply as needed. Hot wax needs reapplied, 
pita if you ask me, time and effort .  

Anyways, I've gone back to just slapping on the new chain, wiping it every 
so often, blow debris off with a compressor and reapply on bike with 
whatever oil. The most important part of a chain is INSIDE , and once you 
use solvent and remove it, it's not so easy to get it back it at all. 
Factory lubes are done with heat and pressure, to penetrate the links.  No 
one can do that at home.  

For myself ... "time" spent cleaning and lubing a chain frequently  is 
not "free" .  Only FREE is free, no exception, no debate, no alternative. 

This all said, I don't ride in the rain if I can avoid it. This is just one 
perspective  viva la Infinity  :-)  

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Michael Hechmer]

I live in VT, so wet & green.  I live 3 miles down a dirt road so all of my 
rides include at least 6 miles of dirt and many rides considerable more.

I am motivated to try wax by the timing chain on my tandem.  It is long and 
it needs to be removed when we break the bike apart and stick it in the 
back of the car.  Then it has to be reassembled.  The whole process takes 
about 20 minutes and about half of that involves the timing chain and 
cleaning my hands.

FYI, here's the recipe posted to the tandem list:

"Gulf paraffin canning wax, petroleum jelly, mineral oil (baby oil can 
work) and beeswax.  It’s about 6 parts paraffin (one box), 1 part petroleum 
jelly, 1 part mineral oil and 1 part beeswax. Then i get s small container 
of powdered graphite from Home Depot that they sell in the ‘door lock’ 
section.  Very small tube. "

I am also looking into converting the timing chain to a gates carbon fiber, 
which involves some real money - new spiders, rings & a long belt.

Michael

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 10:27:46 AM UTC-4, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> Michael, do you live in wet or dry environs? I hear wax is best for dry 
> but not wet. I live in humid/rainy Maryland and find Chain-L to last a 
> couple months before a reoiling necessary.
>
> I get 100-200 miles only out of wax. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Ana Candela]

Michael,

It may look like a hassle at first for acquiring the necessary stuff and 
thoroughly cleaning the chain to prep it for waxing. This is only done ONCE. 
Thereafter, it takes only five minutes (+30 min of heating and letting it cool 
down) every three or so weeks in dry weather, every week in wet (I commute 
daily in Seattle).

There are several YouTube videos, and I recommend these two by Oz cycle:
Cleaning: https://youtu.be/D0eOxbnzDQA (long comparison of cleaning methods, 
use kerosene)
Waxing: https://youtu.be/gF9nbwsaSHs

I posted some of my process on Instagram:
https://instagram.com/p/Bez5tv0jvQz/
Impressions:
https://instagram.com/p/BeFWa8HjDNb/
https://instagram.com/p/BeUbWKIjs5x/
https://instagram.com/p/BeCvjJkj5Sa/

Hope this helps. Good luck!

-Ana, riding on, smoothly and gunkless :)

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[eddietheflay]

I bought the ingredients on ebay and have been waxing for a couple of 
years. I have no idea how it compares in durability. I mostly am a fair 
weather rider so rain not much of a factor. I can say the chain and 
cassette stay really clean and the mess when fixing rear flats or 
derailments is lessened.

Cleaning:

https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/clean-your-chain

Expert advise:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tech-news-friction-facts-releases-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/

Testing:

http://biketestreviews.com/the-last-word-on-chain-lubrication/



On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
> waxing cloth!)
>
> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>
> Michael
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[buixote]

I like the idea of the *drive belts* for the timing "drive". Unfortunately, 
they're *ridiculously expensive*. :-(


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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[eddietheflay]

as a retired person with the cycling hobby, I get a certain amount of 
satisfaction from doing a relatively quick 4 step cleaning process and then 
warming up the hot wax in the crock pot and then pushing the chain down 
into the molten liquid and watching it bubble. have been using the shake 
jar method first with a couple of rounds of the lovely paint thinner and 
then one or two rounds with denatured alcohol - a derivation of this:

https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/clean-your-chain

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
> waxing cloth!)
>
> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>
> Michael
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Ron Mc]

Adding details to the system idea.  The double boiler using two cheap 
saucepans lets you store your half-pound of molten speed wax in the small 
sauce pan when it resolidifies.  Starting with a clean chain is what lets 
you reuse the half-pound for ten+ chains.  After almost 3 years, I'm still 
on the first half-pound of molten speed wax in the little sauce pan.  
There's still a half-pound of the granulated wax in the bag that it came in 
waiting for its someday need.  


Eddie, my satisfaction is touching the chain on the bike months down the 
road, feeling its slickness, and picking up nothing on your fingers.  

On Sunday, June 3, 2018 at 11:41:00 PM UTC-5, eddietheflay wrote:
>
> as a retired person with the cycling hobby, I get a certain amount of 
> satisfaction from doing a relatively quick 4 step cleaning process and then 
> warming up the hot wax in the crock pot and then pushing the chain down 
> into the molten liquid and watching it bubble. have been using the shake 
> jar method first with a couple of rounds of the lovely paint thinner and 
> then one or two rounds with denatured alcohol - a derivation of this:
>
> https://moltenspeedwax.com/pages/clean-your-chain
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Tom Norton]

A question from a newbie. As we are touring cyclists I am considering the 
waxing route. But wondering how to deal with "relubing" while on tour? We have 
a 2 month European tour coming up.

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Ron Mc]

I extend my 700 mi/ hotwax with bottled wax lube.  My experience with these 
is not to use the weather resistant type, because they are tenacious and 
difficult to remove completely later.  White Lightning Clean Ride is my 
choice - it gets me another 100 mi/ application.  I've also tried Pedros, 
different Finish Line grades.  

On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 9:39:39 AM UTC-5, Tom Norton wrote:
>
> A question from a newbie. As we are touring cyclists I am considering the 
> waxing route. But wondering how to deal with "relubing" while on tour? We 
> have a 2 month European tour coming up. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

['Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch]

White lightening clean lube after every two or three rides with a good 
chain wipe down, keeps my chain very clean. I have a very 'spensive cog set 
that I can't afford to replace at three hundred plus dollars. (It was a 
gift from my son). One thing I have learned after thirty years, is don't 
degrease your new chain. Chains last much longer with the factory grease 
inside the rollers. True story.   

Clayton
#DirtDance

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
> waxing cloth!)
>
> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>
> Michael
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Michael Hechmer]

OP here.  Let me try to summarize what I am learning.  My current practice 
is to remove the chain when dirty, soak it in mineral spirits in a used 1 
qt yogurt container.  After a few minutes I swish it around, take it out, 
and then, depending on how energetic I feel, either take a brush to it or 
wipe it down, then put it in a second yogurt container and repeat the 
process.  Take it out, wipe it down, reinstall it, lube it, wipe it down 
lots more.

What I'm reading I should do is buy an ultrasound machine & two pots,  then 
clean it much the same as I have been, except adding a third cycle with 
mineral oil. (How to clean the ultrasound pots is yet to be learned). Buy 
an inexpensive crock pot and waxing supplies.  Boil them up, wax the chain, 
let it cool, install and ride away.

Presumably this process wont have to be done nearly as often and I wont 
have chain tattoos on my leg.   I would like that but I would groan 
whenever it needed redoing.

If I were young enough to justify buying a new bike, it would be titanium 
with a Rohloff hub and a Gates drive belt!

Michael

On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 1:03:49 PM UTC-4, Clayton wrote:
>
> White lightening clean lube after every two or three rides with a good 
> chain wipe down, keeps my chain very clean. I have a very 'spensive cog set 
> that I can't afford to replace at three hundred plus dollars. (It was a 
> gift from my son). One thing I have learned after thirty years, is don't 
> degrease your new chain. Chains last much longer with the factory grease 
> inside the rollers. True story.   
>
> Clayton
> #DirtDance
>
> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
>> waxing cloth!)
>>
>> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
>> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
>> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
>> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>>
>> Michael
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Garth]

Clayton, do you apply the WL Clean Ride over a factory lubed , wiped down, 
chain ?(ridden a few miles or not)  Cleaning the chain prior I always have 
to reapply often at first as the first applications simply do get INSIDE 
the chain and it squeaks quickly at first.   If I didn't have to clean the 
darn chain before using Clean Ride I'd still use it on both bikes, I simply 
prefer to never clean a chain, I've done it so many times I just enough. 

I assumed it would create a mess but never bothered trying it that way. 


On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 1:03:49 PM UTC-4, Clayton wrote:
>
> White lightening clean lube after every two or three rides with a good 
> chain wipe down, keeps my chain very clean. I have a very 'spensive cog set 
> that I can't afford to replace at three hundred plus dollars. (It was a 
> gift from my son). One thing I have learned after thirty years, is don't 
> degrease your new chain. Chains last much longer with the factory grease 
> inside the rollers. True story.   
>
> Clayton
> #DirtDance
>
> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
>> waxing cloth!)
>>
>> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
>> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
>> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
>> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>>
>> Michael
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[eddietheflay]

chain cleaning. I wonder if the last step is best done with alcohol rather 
than mineral oil? Wouldn't you want the surface dry and not with any 
petroleum product left on it before you bathe it in hot wax?

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
> waxing cloth!)
>
> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>
> Michael
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Ron Mc]

guess I'll say it again.  My method is working great.  I clean with mineral 
spirits followed by denatured alcohol.  
You end up with a chain that doesn't even smell like mineral spirits.  
My logic was extending the half-pound of wax for as many chains as 
possible.  When you clean with mineral spirits, you're removing the old 
wax, and you don't want to put mineral spirits into your fresh wax bath.  

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

['Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Garth, I'm still in the 'trying out the Clean Lube phase". I degreased my 
chain with citrus degreaser, but not by soaking it. I brushed it on with a 
stiff brush while on the bike, and let it sit for a couple of minutes. That 
left most of the factory grease intact in the rollers, but removed the 
exterior grease. I washed the drive chain again with Dawn dish soap, let it 
dry and lubed it with the White Lightening clean lube. I re-lube every two 
or three rides off road (with lots of rag wipe down afterward) and less 
often on road. So far, my drivetrain is staying very clean, but I am going 
to measure my chain for stretch more often until I have some confidence in 
the lube. Keeping all crap out of the pins and rollers interface is most 
important for preventing chain stretch, and by leaving the factory grease 
in there, it keeps dirt out. The heavy viscosity of the grease prevents pin 
and roller contact. Chains last longer. Keeping the exterior of the chain 
grit free, helps prevent cog and chainring wear. The problem is how to do 
both, so I am trying this out, "Semi-degreasing". Eventually, the interior 
grease while be depleted and replaced by the dry lube. 

I have a question that I have pondered for a long time..Does the build 
up of the solids, from the semi-clean dry lubes on the cogs prevent wear? I 
looked at my cog set right at the bearing surface of the teeth, and there 
was a black hard-ish coating from using a dry lube.  Excessive grunge and 
grit is bad, but where is the exact line of cleanliness to provide maximum 
drive train life? Without exterior lube on the rollers, do the chainrings 
and cogs wear quicker? Wear less? 
  
The White Lightening clean lube is thin and makes a bit of a mess during 
application. Dripping it on each link does not work. I go through it much 
quicker than the dry lube, both because of the runny viscosity but also the 
need to reapply much more often, which could get expensive. It makes no 
sense to use forty dollars of chain lube trying to lengthen the life of my 
forty dollar chain, but I hope to hell it prevents premature wear of my 
absurdly expensive cog set. I have yet to decide if I like it, but plan on 
using it on all three bikes this summer for a thorough test. I have two to 
go through and clean yet. They have much cheaper drive trains and can wait. 
I have been too busy riding. 

Clayton
#DirtDance



On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>
>
> Clayton, do you apply the WL Clean Ride over a factory lubed , wiped down, 
> chain ?(ridden a few miles or not)  Cleaning the chain prior I always have 
> to reapply often at first as the first applications simply do get INSIDE 
> the chain and it squeaks quickly at first.   If I didn't have to clean the 
> darn chain before using Clean Ride I'd still use it on both bikes, I simply 
> prefer to never clean a chain, I've done it so many times I just enough. 
>
> I assumed it would create a mess but never bothered trying it that way. 
>
>
> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 1:03:49 PM UTC-4, Clayton wrote:
>>
>> White lightening clean lube after every two or three rides with a good 
>> chain wipe down, keeps my chain very clean. I have a very 'spensive cog set 
>> that I can't afford to replace at three hundred plus dollars. (It was a 
>> gift from my son). One thing I have learned after thirty years, is don't 
>> degrease your new chain. Chains last much longer with the factory grease 
>> inside the rollers. True story.   
>>
>> Clayton
>> #DirtDance
>>
>> On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>>
>>> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
>>> waxing cloth!)
>>>
>>> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>>>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
>>> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
>>> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
>>> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Garth]

Thank you Clayton .   I have one bike that I use WL Clean Ride with and 
have for 4 years or so. Before that I used Squirt water based wax lube. It 
was much thicker but in the end I found no real world difference in wear of 
chains or cog teeth.  

So, I'm gonna try just a surface cleaning of the outside of the chains and 
then CR. Like you, I found removing factory lube a bad idea. I prefer not 
cleaning a chain at all .  FWIW, with CR I found the only way to not waste 
it is to position the rear derailler in a small cog/small chainring 
position, so the chain is at an angle. I place a piece of cardboard next to 
the spokes and a rag underneath. I use a copper wire end and slightly 
enlarge the tip of the bottle, or else it tends to stream sporadically. 
Then I rotate the chain backwards while just TILTING the bottle to get a 
thin stream between the jockey wheels on the chain, rotate about 12-15 
times which is enough to saturate the chain but not be dripping all over. A 
few drips is alright. Then I just let it dry overnight, I don't even bother 
wiping it off, I suppose I could, I guess I forget about it. I probably get 
anywhere between 120-150 miles I suppose on it as-is. It seems better in 
warm weather. I only wipe it off before a relube.  I may get a very small 
amount of build up between the 13-15t small cogs, but a screw driver 
removes it fine.  A clean "looking" chain I don't care about, just a 
working chain is fine with me. 

I bought the quart sized a number of years ago and I have yet to use it 
all. It was maybe $26 at the time. The tops of the bottles come off, you 
may need some pliers held gently, then a small funnel to fill . As you 
know   shake shake shake those bottles !  



On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 7:52:05 PM UTC-4, Clayton wrote:
>
> Garth, I'm still in the 'trying out the Clean Lube phase". I degreased my 
> chain with citrus degreaser, but not by soaking it. I brushed it on with a 
> stiff brush while on the bike, and let it sit for a couple of minutes. That 
> left most of the factory grease intact in the rollers, but removed the 
> exterior grease. I washed the drive chain again with Dawn dish soap, let it 
> dry and lubed it with the White Lightening clean lube. I re-lube every two 
> or three rides off road (with lots of rag wipe down afterward) and less 
> often on road. So far, my drivetrain is staying very clean, but I am going 
> to measure my chain for stretch more often until I have some confidence in 
> the lube. Keeping all crap out of the pins and rollers interface is most 
> important for preventing chain stretch, and by leaving the factory grease 
> in there, it keeps dirt out. The heavy viscosity of the grease prevents pin 
> and roller contact. Chains last longer. Keeping the exterior of the chain 
> grit free, helps prevent cog and chainring wear. The problem is how to do 
> both, so I am trying this out, "Semi-degreasing". Eventually, the interior 
> grease while be depleted and replaced by the dry lube. 
>
> I have a question that I have pondered for a long time..Does the build 
> up of the solids, from the semi-clean dry lubes on the cogs prevent wear? I 
> looked at my cog set right at the bearing surface of the teeth, and there 
> was a black hard-ish coating from using a dry lube.  Excessive grunge and 
> grit is bad, but where is the exact line of cleanliness to provide maximum 
> drive train life? Without exterior lube on the rollers, do the chainrings 
> and cogs wear quicker? Wear less? 
>   
> The White Lightening clean lube is thin and makes a bit of a mess during 
> application. Dripping it on each link does not work. I go through it much 
> quicker than the dry lube, both because of the runny viscosity but also the 
> need to reapply much more often, which could get expensive. It makes no 
> sense to use forty dollars of chain lube trying to lengthen the life of my 
> forty dollar chain, but I hope to hell it prevents premature wear of my 
> absurdly expensive cog set. I have yet to decide if I like it, but plan on 
> using it on all three bikes this summer for a thorough test. I have two to 
> go through and clean yet. They have much cheaper drive trains and can wait. 
> I have been too busy riding. 
>
> Clayton
> #DirtDance
>
>
>
> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 2:48:14 PM UTC-7, Garth wrote:
>>
>>
>> Clayton, do you apply the WL Clean Ride over a factory lubed , wiped 
>> down, chain ?(ridden a few miles or not)  Cleaning the chain prior I always 
>> have to reapply often at first as the first applications simply do get 
>> INSIDE the chain and it squeaks quickly at first.   If I didn't have to 
>> clean the darn chain before using Clean Ride I'd still use it on both 
>> bikes, I simply prefer to never clean a chain, I've done it so many times I 
>> just enough. 
>>
>> I assumed it would create a mess but never bothered trying it that way. 
>>
>>
>> On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 1:03:49 PM UTC-4, Clayton wrote:
>>>
>>> White lightening cl

[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I don't get how that solid wax can get to inside the rollers, where the 
critical wear occurs.


On Monday, June 4, 2018 at 8:53:51 AM UTC-7, Justin, Oakland wrote:
>
> This just came up on Instagram: https://instagram.com/p/BjkQr4VgsK7/
> https://wendperformance.com/buy-online/wend-wax-on
>
>
> The convenience factor is huge. 
>
> -J
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[eddietheflay]

the guy in the kitchen vid did not say anything about the alcohol step 
after cleaning his new chain in mineral spirits.

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 4:54:19 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> I did a search on this and was surprised not to find anything. (Except 
> waxing cloth!)
>
> After 40+ years of cleaning and lubing chains I may be ready to try wax. 
>  I recently got a recipe & process on the tandem list but wondered about 
> the experience of people on this list.  How much extra work is it?  How 
> much longer does it last than "dry lubes?"  Does it make a difference what 
> kind of environment you ride in, eg, Santa Fe vs Seattle?
>
> Michael
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Ron Mc]

this is really simple.  If you want a clean dry chain to put in your molten 
speed wax, use denatured alcohol last

On Tuesday, June 5, 2018 at 7:59:23 AM UTC-5, eddietheflay wrote:
>
> the guy in the kitchen vid did not say anything about the alcohol step 
> after cleaning his new chain in mineral spirits.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[eddietheflay]

it is kinda of interesting the high percentage of relatively high praise 
for NFS. i like it a lot but can't quantify why. it just seems to work 
really well.

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:18:22 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, 
> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I 
> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I 
> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing 
> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), 
> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my 
> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot 
> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, 
> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil 
> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the 
> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first 
> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil 
> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new 
> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of 
> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off 
> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; 
> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner 
> and reduce wear?
>
> Your experience, appreciated.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Michael Hechmer]

So.  To come back to this.  I ordered a bottle of Nix Frix Shun NFX, and 
have been using it on my two bikes, my wife's bike and our tandem this 
summer.  The results have been excellent.  I don't know how much is this 
particular lube or is application method, including wiping the outside 
 chain after every ride; but I'm sold.  We ride predominantly on dirt roads 
and gravel bike paths and my chains have remained clean and quiet since 
late May.  Actually, I found after three or four rides I really didn't need 
to wipe the chain.  A big thank you to the people who recommended it.

Michael

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, 
> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I 
> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I 
> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing 
> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), 
> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my 
> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot 
> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, 
> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil 
> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the 
> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first 
> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil 
> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new 
> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of 
> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off 
> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; 
> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner 
> and reduce wear?
>
> Your experience, appreciated.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Jeff B]

Not to talk off the topic of chain lubing but, Patrick your rear derailleur 
cable is wrapped under the kickstand plate. Not sure if it makes any 
difference to you but it could lead to the cable breaking prematurely or 
the rear Der being perpetually out of adjustment. Is there room for the 
cable to ride smoothly next to the plate or is a that a GUS quirk?

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Michael Hechmer]

Alternately, you might consider a length of housing, as is common under BB 
shells.
Michael

On Monday, July 20, 2020 at 12:28:25 AM UTC-4, Jeff B wrote:
>
> Not to talk off the topic of chain lubing but, Patrick your rear 
> derailleur cable is wrapped under the kickstand plate. Not sure if it makes 
> any difference to you but it could lead to the cable breaking prematurely 
> or the rear Der being perpetually out of adjustment. Is there room for the 
> cable to ride smoothly next to the plate or is a that a GUS quirk?
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Ted Durant]

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 6:18:22 PM UTC-5 mhec...@gmail.com wrote:

> Your experience, appreciated.
>

And lots of experience posted from all over! I gave wax a try for a couple 
of years, but it never made it through winters very well here (salty slush 
on the roads is a nightmare for chains and gears). To be fair, I didn't 
have a good, dedicated pot for heating the wax. I now have a caddy loaded 
with pretty much all the commercial concoctions aimed at bike chains from 
Dry to Epic conditions. Every one of them promise to be clean and long 
lasting, and none of them deliver on it. I have not yet tried NFS.

A couple of people have given the thumbs up to WD-40. I agree, it's tough 
to beat WD-40 for cleaning and a quick lube. If you want it to last the 
duration of a 200km or longer brevet, especially a wet one, well, that's 
not going to happen. I saw an article somewhere, as I was noodling on this 
issue, that showed WD-40 is the best lube and also is the shortest-lasting. 
Chain saw oil, which you can also find packaged as Phil (Wood) Tenacious 
Oil, is quite long lasting, quite messy, and higher friction. Higher is 
relative - as the Spicer research notes, friction losses are tiny.

In the course of my experimentation, I spied the old bottle of 3-in-One on 
my shelf and thought, "huh, why not?" It even says right on the front that 
it's great for bicycle chains. I've been using it for a few years now and 
am very happy with it. I can easily go a few hundred miles without care. I 
haven't had to ride a brevet in the rain with it, but I've had some wet 
rides and it lasts pretty well. In the winter, as with any lube, I have to 
clean, dry, and re-lube after every ride if the roads are wet and salty. 
Between lubes, an occasional wipe with a rag sprayed with WD-40 keeps the 
outside clean. Cleaning (more WD-40 and a rag) and relubing takes about 15 
minutes if I'm being slow. I also like to keep my derailer pulleys and cogs 
clean (more WD-40) at the same time.

One part of this topic I haven't seen discussed, but I think is crucial, is 
how the lube is applied. Waxing techniques are their own thing. Applying 
wet lubes, the biggest game changer for me was putting the 3-in-One into an 
old valve oil bottle with a needle applicator (from my other hobby, playing 
horn). The needle applicator allows for precise delivery of a small drop on 
each link - no more flooding the chain and spending another hour trying to 
get rid of the excess. My new bottle of 3-in-One appears to be a lifetime 
supply at this rate. And, the little bottle with the needle rides easily in 
my handlebar bag for a long ride.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Garth]

I remember seeing this guy from GCN who uses WD-40 as both lube and 
degreaser on all his road, mtb and cross bikes all year in the UK, with up 
to 5 hour rides in all conditions. He's not endorsed to use it either. He 
calls himself a "lazy bike rider looking for a cheap trick". My kinda rider 
!  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvzVRxlIUL0




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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Andrew Schlukebier]

I ride 9-12 miles most days when it’s not raining. 1-2 times per week I 
wipe the chain with a washcloth while spinning it, then put on ProGold 
ProLink while spinning, then wipe again with the washcloth. Takes 2 minutes 
or so, and seems to leave the chain fairly clean and slightly lubed.

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, 
> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I 
> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I 
> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing 
> about.  I have a Rambouillet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), 
> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my 
> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot 
> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, 
> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil 
> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the 
> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first 
> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil 
> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered th so I'm 
> focused).  Every time I go through this process of cleaning 9 chains, I 
> watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off by the initial effort 
> and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; and wonder if it 
> would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner and reduce wear?
>
> Your experience, appreciated.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello All

*** UPDATE on my lube experiment. **

Here's what I did:

1) Took both cassette and chain off the Atlantis. 

2) Put the chain in a big plastic screw top bottle without 2 inches of 
degreaser for a few hours, and shook it up now and then. Then drained, 
rinsed, and went over it with a toothbrush for a few minutes afterwords 
until it was shiny clean. Cleaned the cassette by hand until it looked the 
same.

3) Mounted everything back on the bike and applied Smoov lube, which was 
recommended to me by Adam at Zero Friction. He said the key is to drip it 
on, then wipe off the excess with a cloth while spinning the chain 
backwards, so I dd that. Let it dry for a few hours. 

The lube looks white and waxy, though you don't see much of it except in 
the joints of the chain after wiping down.

I've put about 150 miles on the bike so far, including pretty dirty fire 
trails with puddles of mud, and after hosing the bike down the chain still 
remains shiny and clean. Pretty amazing. You're supposed to reapply the 
lube regularly, and I'll do that again soon. Still figuring out how often I 
need to do that.

So far I'm super-impressed. No black chain, no black cassette. Chain quiet 
and drivetrain happy. And the lube was only $25.

Best,

Paul

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, 
> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I 
> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I 
> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing 
> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), 
> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my 
> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot 
> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, 
> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil 
> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the 
> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first 
> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil 
> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new 
> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of 
> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off 
> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; 
> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner 
> and reduce wear?
>
> Your experience, appreciated.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[dougP]

Michael:

I find that waxing leaves the chain clean so that it doesn't attract dirt.  
Even riding off-road it can be simply wiped down.  However, I've also done 
some touring in wet climates & need to take along a conventional chain lube 
as the wax doesn't hold up well in a wet climate.  It is a hassle to go 
thru the process, and 9 chains would take a lot of time.  My wife & I only 
one bike each to doing a few times a year is not a big chore for me.  Some 
time ago, she picked up a fondue pot at a garage sale or something, cheap, 
and it's perfect for one chain at a time.  I just use ordinary canning wax 
(paraffin?), nothing biking specific.  

I understand there are also liquid wax chain products but have never tried 
them.  It may be an option for you to consider.

dougP

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:18:22 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, 
> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I 
> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I 
> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing 
> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), 
> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my 
> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot 
> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, 
> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil 
> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the 
> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first 
> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil 
> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new 
> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of 
> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off 
> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; 
> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner 
> and reduce wear?
>
> Your experience, appreciated.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[eddietheflay]

i waxed for about 3 years. it was sorta fun to have a new hobby to go along 
with simply riding the bike. waxing is a hobby. it works fine but the 
question is does is how long does a waxing last? do you have to do it 2x as 
often as cleaning and relube with a great normal lube product. i think the 
answers are it does not last as long and it is no better than normal lube = 
NFS for me.

when i waxed i mostly followed these procedures and actually purchased the 
additional chemicals mentioned in this write-up. i love a clean well lubed 
chain and NFS seems like great stuff to me. yes a little dirtier maybe than 
wax but that means you clean it when it's ready to be cleaned:

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tech-news-friction-facts-releases-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula/

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:18:22 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, 
> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I 
> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I 
> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing 
> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), 
> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my 
> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot 
> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, 
> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil 
> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the 
> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first 
> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil 
> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new 
> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of 
> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off 
> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; 
> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner 
> and reduce wear?
>
> Your experience, appreciated.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Lefebeaver]

I'm a wax convert - it started years ago when I was recovering from a back 
injury and commuting on a recumbent, with yards of chain that kept finding 
a way to stain my legs, my yellow riding jacket, and anything else that got 
within a block of it. I read that waxing was the lowest friction, longest 
life option for a chain, and since replacing all that chain was expensive, 
wax appealed to me. Now I wax the chain on the recumbent as well as my 
daily rider Atlantis and my mountain bike, and except on a long tour away 
from home I would never consider using anything else. I recently modified 
my wax recipe to add a toilet seal wax ring (a couple bucks - new!) for its 
much softer composition, so now I'm probably running a half and half 
mixture of Gulf wax and toilet wax. I'm finding the wax is lasting much 
longer this way before the chain starts chirping, but I've never monitored 
mileage very diligently - I wax when it squeaks, or if it's been awhile and 
I'm planning a long ride. I find waxing to be the lowest effort and least 
messy method of any I've tried in my 5+ decades of regular riding - no 
cleaning needed, no rags or gloves, never any black stains on hands, 
clothes etc. from the chain. With a quick link in the chain and a tool for 
dealing with that, it's very little work and leaves no mess.  - Paul

On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, 
> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I 
> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I 
> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing 
> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), 
> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my 
> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot 
> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, 
> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil 
> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the 
> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first 
> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil 
> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new 
> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of 
> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off 
> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; 
> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner 
> and reduce wear?
>
> Your experience, appreciated.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Bill Eberle in Portland OR]

The toilet seal ring thing seems like a great idea. How about Johnson's Wax? 
It's about the same color, maybe even softer, and your chain would really shine 
after a wipedown. Anybody tried it?

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

On the opposite side of the spectrum from wax, I use chain saw oil. One 
drop per link, whenever the chain begins to talk. I worry not one whit 
about cleaning it. Works great in all environs, all year long.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Michael Hechmer]

Deacon, how good to connect with you again, even when I think you are 
wrong!  At one level you are right.  If we are discussing energy lost to 
friction in the drivetrain then nothing makes a difference, wax, chain oil, 
heavy or light oil or even no lube at all.  Under all conditions the energy 
loss is vanishingly small.   But that's not the issue.   The purpose of any 
lube is either to fill the space between two metal parts and thereby 
prevent dirt from entering and prematurely wearing those parts out, and/ or 
the lubricant can flush out microscopic metal particles which also abrade 
the surface.  That's why you put a lubricant on a stone before sharpening a 
blade - to flush out metal bits, same as  in a car's crank case.  The real 
benefit comes not from the lube per say but from keeping the chain clean. 
 A dirty chain not only wears itself out much faster but wears out the 
rings and cogs.  In a sterile environment a steel roller bearing (AKA a 
chain roller) can move over a piece of 7075 Al.  for most of a human 
lifetime w/out wearing it out.  Introduce grit and both the gullet and 
sidewalls will be worn away quickly. 

So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying to 
extend the life of chainrings?  And which process will optimize the 
tradeoff?  That's probably a different answer for every rider.  I'm tired 
of the answer I've been giving to that question and am looking for a better 
deal, a clean chain with less work.

Here's a research report you might 
enjoy. https://pages.jh.edu/news_info/news/home99/aug99/bike.html


blessings,
michael

On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 3:27:05 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> On the opposite side of the spectrum from wax, I use chain saw oil. One 
> drop per link, whenever the chain begins to talk. I worry not one whit 
> about cleaning it. Works great in all environs, all year long.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Good to connect with you too, Michael, even when you are wrong about 
thinking I am wrong. Grin. I agree, my method increases part wear, and I 
agree the question we each are answering in our own way, as you well 
express, is: "how much of my life do I want to give up trying to extend the 
life of chainrings?"

For my riding, oft in sloppy environs of one type or another, with 
stunningly abrasive, sharp, decomposed granite grit, large and small, I 
either put in a lot of work and still have a fiar bit of wear, or I simply 
ensure the bits keep working, as you describe, replaice chains more often, 
and figure I lose a year or so of drivetrain life, but save a year or so of 
my life keeping it clean. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[dougP]

*"So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying to 
extend the life of chainrings?*

Michael:

You've hit on the core question.  There are so many different situations 
that it's hard to generalize.  There is no optimal solution for all 
conditions.  The questions for each of us should be:

1.  How long do I expect drivetrain parts to last?  If you ride 2,000 miles 
per year, and get a year out of a chain & cassette, and a couple of years 
out of chainrings, then you may want to be more diligent about cleaning & 
lubrication, esp. if it's a big hit money-wise.  OTH, if you get many years 
out of your drive train and / or the financial incentive is low, you can be 
more casual.  The occasional spritz with whatever your LBS is selling will 
work.

2.  How much trouble & effort do I want to expend on this to optimize drive 
train life?  If it's a satisfying chore you don't mind doing, then some 
combo of thorough cleaning & careful lubrication is for you.  Everyone 
needs a hobby.  OTH, if the whole thing is a huge PITA that you put off 
doing, then the casual spritz works.

 Related considerations:  

3.   Cost of components:  7-8-9 speed cassettes are under $30; chains under 
$20.  Decent chainrings are $25.  What's the real value of trying to 
squeeze a bit of extra life out these?  Are you a student on a tight budget 
or retired with plenty of cash?  OTH, if you're into the latest drivetrain 
components such as 11 & 12 speed, now you're looking at a whole lot more 
money.  

4.  Riding mileage: Does each bike get perhaps 1,000 miles per year or 
10,000 miles?  Lower mileage suggests more casual care may work.  Higher 
mileage requires more effort (either time or money) to keep things ticking 
over properly.  

5.  Climate: If you're in a dry, clean climate, you get more miles out of a 
lube job.  However, wet and / or dusty or dirty environments are tough on 
chains et al.  E..g., I'm in a warm, dry, dust free climate.  What works in 
my climate would be a disaster for me in Deacon Patrick's climate.  Wax 
doesn't like wet conditions.  

Hope this helps the evaluation process.  

dougP



On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>
> Deacon, how good to connect with you again, even when I think you are 
> wrong!  At one level you are right.  If we are discussing energy lost to 
> friction in the drivetrain then nothing makes a difference, wax, chain oil, 
> heavy or light oil or even no lube at all.  Under all conditions the energy 
> loss is vanishingly small.   But that's not the issue.   The purpose of any 
> lube is either to fill the space between two metal parts and thereby 
> prevent dirt from entering and prematurely wearing those parts out, and/ or 
> the lubricant can flush out microscopic metal particles which also abrade 
> the surface.  That's why you put a lubricant on a stone before sharpening a 
> blade - to flush out metal bits, same as  in a car's crank case.  The real 
> benefit comes not from the lube per say but from keeping the chain clean. 
>  A dirty chain not only wears itself out much faster but wears out the 
> rings and cogs.  In a sterile environment a steel roller bearing (AKA a 
> chain roller) can move over a piece of 7075 Al.  for most of a human 
> lifetime w/out wearing it out.  Introduce grit and both the gullet and 
> sidewalls will be worn away quickly. 
>
> So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying to 
> extend the life of chainrings?  And which process will optimize the 
> tradeoff?  That's probably a different answer for every rider.  I'm tired 
> of the answer I've been giving to that question and am looking for a better 
> deal, a clean chain with less work.
>
> Here's a research report you might enjoy. 
> https://pages.jh.edu/news_info/news/home99/aug99/bike.html
>
>
> blessings,
> michael
>
> On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 3:27:05 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> On the opposite side of the spectrum from wax, I use chain saw oil. One 
>> drop per link, whenever the chain begins to talk. I worry not one whit 
>> about cleaning it. Works great in all environs, all year long.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Michael Hechmer]

What an interesting conversation!  I had no idea when I originally asked. 
 Now I see that what Deacon does works for Deacon and what Doug, or 
Patrick, or Rich, or.. anyone else does probably works for them and not 
just because of physics but because of lifestyle and personality.

I have three hobbies - hand tool woodworking, bike riding, and tending a 
small garden.  All three of them have in common that they use tools as an 
extension of my body and soul.  It's important to me that the tools work 
seamlessly with my body.  My woodworking tool collection includes some that 
are a hundred years old, some that are forty and some that are brand new, 
but each one is a joy to hold and use.  I maintain them meticulously.  Same 
goes for my bicycles.  I want it to run quietly, respond predictably and 
shift perfectly, every time. That's why I ride Rivendells.  I run  a 9 
speed friction set up and find this works great if I start with high 
quality parts and keep them in good condition.  I'm also constitutionally 
opposed to a throw away world.  (I once brought a twenty five year old 
microwave into a repair shop, only to be greeted with gales of laughter)  I 
recently brought  a Milwaukee drill into a shop to get the switch replaced. 
 The service man took one look at it and said, "You've had this awhile 
haven't you."  and I thought OMG, I've become my father!  I run ultegra 
cassettes, connex chains and Sugino's best rings,  White's or TAs.  Letting 
them wear out prematurely is not a good option.

I appreciate all the feedback.  Thank you all.  I think I'm going to give 
Squirt a try.  I've been looking at sonic cleaners on line.  Everyone I 
looked at in the $75 range seemed to have about a 15% early failure rate. 
 The Molten site sells one for $139 plus up to $25 for shipping.  Ouch. 
 Maybe I'll give more traditional cleaning methods a deeper try as a prep 
for wax.

Doug reminds me that on a sticky hot day,  going down into the cool of the 
basement and cleaning bike parts isn't all bad.

Michael

On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 11:43:15 PM UTC-4, dougP wrote:
>
> *"So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying to 
> extend the life of chainrings?*
>
> Michael:
>
> You've hit on the core question.  There are so many different situations 
> that it's hard to generalize.  There is no optimal solution for all 
> conditions.  The questions for each of us should be:
>
> 1.  How long do I expect drivetrain parts to last?  If you ride 2,000 
> miles per year, and get a year out of a chain & cassette, and a couple of 
> years out of chainrings, then you may want to be more diligent about 
> cleaning & lubrication, esp. if it's a big hit money-wise.  OTH, if you get 
> many years out of your drive train and / or the financial incentive is low, 
> you can be more casual.  The occasional spritz with whatever your LBS is 
> selling will work.
>
> 2.  How much trouble & effort do I want to expend on this to optimize 
> drive train life?  If it's a satisfying chore you don't mind doing, then 
> some combo of thorough cleaning & careful lubrication is for you.  Everyone 
> needs a hobby.  OTH, if the whole thing is a huge PITA that you put off 
> doing, then the casual spritz works.
>
>  Related considerations:  
>
> 3.   Cost of components:  7-8-9 speed cassettes are under $30; chains 
> under $20.  Decent chainrings are $25.  What's the real value of trying to 
> squeeze a bit of extra life out these?  Are you a student on a tight budget 
> or retired with plenty of cash?  OTH, if you're into the latest drivetrain 
> components such as 11 & 12 speed, now you're looking at a whole lot more 
> money.  
>
> 4.  Riding mileage: Does each bike get perhaps 1,000 miles per year or 
> 10,000 miles?  Lower mileage suggests more casual care may work.  Higher 
> mileage requires more effort (either time or money) to keep things ticking 
> over properly.  
>
> 5.  Climate: If you're in a dry, clean climate, you get more miles out of 
> a lube job.  However, wet and / or dusty or dirty environments are tough on 
> chains et al.  E..g., I'm in a warm, dry, dust free climate.  What works in 
> my climate would be a disaster for me in Deacon Patrick's climate.  Wax 
> doesn't like wet conditions.  
>
> Hope this helps the evaluation process.  
>
> dougP
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> Deacon, how good to connect with you again, even when I think you are 
>> wrong!  At one level you are right.  If we are discussing energy lost to 
>> friction in the drivetrain then nothing makes a difference, wax, chain oil, 
>> heavy or light oil or even no lube at all.  Under all conditions the energy 
>> loss is vanishingly small.   But that's not the issue.   The purpose of any 
>> lube is either to fill the space between two metal parts and thereby 
>> prevent dirt from entering and prematurely wearing those parts out, and/ or 
>> the lubricant can flush out microscopic

[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[tuolumne bikes]

For cleaning, I mostly hose off the drivetrain after a dusty ride, bounce the 
bike a few times and dry in the sun, and then wipe down the chain. Sometimes I 
over lube and wipe. 

When it's time to do a rare major cleaning, the chain goes in an old wide mouth 
nalgene with Dawn dish soap and boiling water. I wrap an old bath towel around 
it and shake the hell out of it. The towel is absolutely mandatory for opening 
the nalgene since it usually spurts like a hot radiator. It takes a couple wash 
and rinse cycles. Hang to dry before installing and lubing. Nalgene was (and 
still is) a lab equipment company before it became an outdoor brand; their hard 
bottles handle boiling water without issues.

There's a theory that this kind of cleaning removes lube from deep inside the 
chain and that relubing the chain can't penetrate to replace it. I figure if 
hot water and detergent got in there, then super slippery chain lube probably 
can too. I over lube and wipe.

The notion that chains need to be really really clean is silly to me given how 
much work that would take. I run 3 x 6/7/8 speeds, so chains are cheap, and 
steel is recyclable. I also really like steel chainrings. Old Sugino VP cranks 
from MTBeaters often have great steel 110/74 BCD rings. What a sensible place 
to add weight to your bike.

Carl

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[RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Garth]

  Having done hot wax, Squirt(water based) and Clean Ride(petrol based) 
bottled waxes ... it always bugged me that I had to remove the factory lube 
in order to use the wax. I still had to clean the chain, sigh. I never want 
to clean another chain in my life, ever, period !  I thought about when I 
was a teen, what lube did I use back then ? Whatever oil my Dad has in his 
squirt can(which is very cool and I still have today) I suppose. Did I ever 
clean chains ? Nope . Did the parts ever wear out, make noises or any of 
that ? Hmm . Sometime later, I must have read in a bike forum about using 
air tool oil for a chain lube and how it didn't attract dirt. It's not 
expensive either, Harbor Freight's 16 oz. bottle is $4. Okay, I'm in !  I 
also switched to KMC chains, the x.9.93 for my Bombadil that I had a new 
drivetrain for. The KMC factory lube is quite excellent, I must have gotten 
250+ miles(wipe the chain periodically) on it before relubing with air tool 
oil. No chain cleaning, only wiping the chain really good, then apply one 
drop per link at a time. Wipe off excess, let it sit overnight then wipe 
good again the next day. To really get the excess off it helps to spin the 
drivetrain good, either in a stand or just lift the rear wheel. This 
minimizes any spray on the rims, but I still get some the first ride as 
frankly it doesn't bother me.  I have no idea what's in AT oil or why or 
how, but it doesn't collect dust and dirt, at least where I ride. I wipe 
off after every ride or 2, say 25-50 miles. Reapplications are maybe every 
250 miles or so, I think as that's a guesstimate. After over 1000k miles 
all is well, the chain still checks Yay and no signs of other wear. I'm 
happy with it !  So Michael if you want to be free of chain cleaning 
altogether give AT oil a try, at least on one bike as an experiment for 
yourself and see it how it goes. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it  ... hee hee hee. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Patrick Moore]

Garth's method doesn't work well in very sandy or dusty environments. Oils
grit the chain up immediately; most "dry" lubes build up into waxy gunk,
and in any case, applying liquid lube over a gritty chain just leaches grit
into the innards.

With the Molten wax I described just now, you clean your chain for the
initial application, and just melt and dunk thereafter.

BTW, use an old crockpot, $5 at Goodwill. But a small one, and one that has
a removeable ceramic pot, which makes cleaning easier, once you have to
replace the wax.

On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 6:30 AM, Garth  wrote:

>
> Search google for*hot wax chains cycling   . *
>
> Scroll  Pick and choose a link .
>
> Asking if it's worth it or not , you will get yes it's worth it and no
> it's not.  No surprise .
>
> A lube is a lube is a lube . those that claim "mine is best" are
> simply defending their choice only.  The "best" is the one you got.  I've
> done hot wax, Squirt Lube water based wax lube, White Lightning Clean Ride
> petro based wax lube, and the usual plethora of oil based stuff.   What I
> found rather silly is that apply wax lubes ... you must clean the chain
> first thereby contradicting "not cleaning the chain" !   Seems like a
> perfectly good waste of factory lube already there. Clean Ride and Squirt
> are the only wax ones that you never ever clean the chain for the life of
> the chain past the initial cleaning, you reapply as needed. Hot wax needs
> reapplied, pita if you ask me, time and effort .
>
> Anyways, I've gone back to just slapping on the new chain, wiping it every
> so often, blow debris off with a compressor and reapply on bike with
> whatever oil. The most important part of a chain is INSIDE , and once you
> use solvent and remove it, it's not so easy to get it back it at all.
> Factory lubes are done with heat and pressure, to penetrate the links.  No
> one can do that at home.
>
> For myself ... "time" spent cleaning and lubing a chain frequently  is
> not "free" .  Only FREE is free, no exception, no debate, no alternative.
>
> This all said, I don't ride in the rain if I can avoid it. This is just
> one perspective  viva la Infinity  :-)
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Patrick Moore]

Dave has a hyper-thorough chain maintenance method, but Molten Wax works
well with less caring regimens, too. I thoroughly cleaned my chain before
the original waxing, per the company's instructions (mineral spirits and
hot water and detergent), but thereafter I've just removed the chain (still
clean on the outside despite our sand and dust) and plunked it onto the
cold, solid wax in the crockpot. Turn the crockpot on, walk away, come back
in an hour or so, dip out with a hook, wiped down*, let cool, and install.

With this method, the wax does collect fine crud and won't last as long,
but it's a heckofalot cleaner, and easier too, than dribbling lube from a
bottle onto the links, letting dry, and wiping thoroughly.

*This step removes most of the wax crust that otherwise forms on the chain
and flakes off on your garage floor.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 6:59 AM, eddietheflay  wrote:

> the guy in the kitchen vid did not say anything about the alcohol step
> after cleaning his new chain in mineral spirits.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot waxing chains?

[Patrick Moore]

The stuff collects at the bottom of the crockpot and, if you exercise
sufficient care and don't stir up the wax when you remove the chain, I
daresay it stays on the bottom and leaves only clean wax to penetrate the
innards of the chain. I'm still on the same 1 1/2 pint of mineral spirits I
first decanted for parts cleaning 2 years or so ago -- I just let the gunk
settle to the bottom.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

>
> With this method, the wax does collect fine crud ...
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Steven Sweedler]

For me the 12 drops part is big, and that  it last longer and is cleaner,
I’m a fan.   Steve

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 1:02 PM eddietheflay  wrote:

> it is kinda of interesting the high percentage of relatively high praise
> for NFS. i like it a lot but can't quantify why. it just seems to work
> really well.
>
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:18:22 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years,
>> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>>
>> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I
>> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I
>> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing
>> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride),
>> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my
>> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot
>> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>>
>> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains,
>> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil
>> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the
>> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first
>> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil
>> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new
>> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of
>> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off
>> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc;
>> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner
>> and reduce wear?
>>
>> Your experience, appreciated.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>> --
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> .
>
-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Lyman Labry]

This is interesting thread.  My new riv bike received May 5th must have
some type of wax treatment on it.  I’ve ridden it daily and drivetrain
still looks clean. Do you know who riv folks use on their bikes?  Also,
wondering what they clean drivetrain with before treating.  Thanks!

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 3:42 PM Michael Hechmer  wrote:

> So.  To come back to this.  I ordered a bottle of Nix Frix Shun NFX, and
> have been using it on my two bikes, my wife's bike and our tandem this
> summer.  The results have been excellent.  I don't know how much is this
> particular lube or is application method, including wiping the outside
>  chain after every ride; but I'm sold.  We ride predominantly on dirt roads
> and gravel bike paths and my chains have remained clean and quiet since
> late May.  Actually, I found after three or four rides I really didn't need
> to wipe the chain.  A big thank you to the people who recommended it.
>
> Michael
>
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years,
>> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>>
>> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I
>> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I
>> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing
>> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride),
>> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my
>> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot
>> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>>
>> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains,
>> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil
>> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the
>> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first
>> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil
>> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new
>> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of
>> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off
>> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc;
>> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner
>> and reduce wear?
>>
>> Your experience, appreciated.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
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> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[James Valiensi]

This thread title sounds like a name for a topless bar…
Use oil on your chain. Chain-L will last 10K miles.

> On Jul 20, 2020, at 2:39 PM, Lyman Labry  wrote:
> 
> This is interesting thread.  My new riv bike received May 5th must have some 
> type of wax treatment on it.  I’ve ridden it daily and drivetrain still looks 
> clean. Do you know who riv folks use on their bikes?  Also, wondering what 
> they clean drivetrain with before treating.  Thanks!
> 
> On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 3:42 PM Michael Hechmer  > wrote:
> So.  To come back to this.  I ordered a bottle of Nix Frix Shun NFX, and have 
> been using it on my two bikes, my wife's bike and our tandem this summer.  
> The results have been excellent.  I don't know how much is this particular 
> lube or is application method, including wiping the outside  chain after 
> every ride; but I'm sold.  We ride predominantly on dirt roads and gravel 
> bike paths and my chains have remained clean and quiet since late May.  
> Actually, I found after three or four rides I really didn't need to wipe the 
> chain.  A big thank you to the people who recommended it.
> 
> Michael
> 
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 7:18:22 PM UTC-4, Michael Hechmer wrote:
> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years, since 
> my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
> 
> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I live 
> in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I just ride; 
> I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing about.  I have 
> a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride), and a custom 
> Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my daughter a Cheviot. 
>   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot of chains out on dirty 
> roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
> 
> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains, rings 
> and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil lube and 
> wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the chains 
> inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first ride bleeds 
> oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil collects dirt, 
> which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new rings today, so 
> I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of cleaning 9 chains, I 
> watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off by the initial effort 
> and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc; and wonder if it would 
> really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner and reduce wear?
> 
> Your experience, appreciated.
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
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>  
> .
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Put on NFS for the first time today. 12 drops on my lng 1x9 Gus's 
chain, in high gear (small cog), back spun 12 times, no wipe. It shifted 
wonderfully smooth. I'll see how long it goes before asking for more and 
how it handles mud and frozen slop; however, so far I'm impressed.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[☆ Paul ☆]

Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at ALL?

This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of 
posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't 
find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.

I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I 
bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about 
belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.

Paul

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-4 Deacon Patrick wrote:

> Put on NFS for the first time today. 12 drops on my lng 1x9 Gus's 
> chain, in high gear (small cog), back spun 12 times, no wipe. It shifted 
> wonderfully smooth. I'll see how long it goes before asking for more and 
> how it handles mud and frozen slop; however, so far I'm impressed.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Patrick Moore]

I've never tried it, but I seem to recall a lab test of bicycle chains
lubricated with different substances, and the researchers finding that a
perfectly dry but clean chain performed as well as a clean, well-lubed
chain. Can anyone recall this study and the report?

Patrick Moore, who remembers Grant speculating long, long ago about using
olive oil on chains.

On Wed, Jul 29, 2020 at 2:17 PM ☆ Paul ☆  wrote:

> Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at ALL?
>
> This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of
> posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't
> find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.
>
> I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I
> bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about
> belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.
>
> Paul
>
>
-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Bill Eberle in Portland OR]

Rohloff® Special Bike Chain Lubricant claims to be "rapidly biodegradable". It 
says so on the bottle. I've always suspected it's some sort of vegetable oil, 
maybe even olive oil. I use it on my Wipperman chain, but not on my salad. It 
works as well or better than other stuff I've tried over many years and cleans 
up more easily than petroleum based lubes. I use Chain Drain Bean Clean for 
that.

Bill in PDX

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[stanwas...@bellsouth.net]

I suspect I'll get a lot of grief for this...

For many years I've been using WD-40 on our bicycle chains.  I spray it on 
while spinning the chain, let it set for a half hour or so and wipe the 
excess off with a paper shop towel.  

I first started using WD on the O-ring drive chains on our Ducati 
motorcycles.  We had been riding BMW shaft drive bikes for years and I 
wasn't sure what to do with lubing motorcycle chains.  The fellow who was 
president of the local Ducati club, who had a LOT of bikes, suggested 
WD-40. 

In 1986 he had purchased a new Suzuki GSXR750, a pretty powerful bike at 
the time, and decided to experiment with WD-40 as a chain lube.  He would 
apply the WD at the end of a ride.

We bought the Ducs and met Jim around 2000.  He was running the original 
chain on the Gixxer then, so I figured I'd give it a shot.  I did that for 
our road bikes and my track bike as well.  Never had any problems and had 
normal service life from the chains.  I figured that it was good enough for 
drive chains on eighty or so hp motorcycles that were frequently ridden in 
the rain, it was good enough for our bicycles.  I suspect the trick with 
drive chains, whether on bicycles, motorcycles or a manure spreaders is 
keeping the chain clean.  

I'm not advocating or recommending.  I'm merely sharing my experience.

Stan



On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 4:17:08 PM UTC-4, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at ALL?
>
> This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of 
> posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't 
> find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.
>
> I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I 
> bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about 
> belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.
>
> Paul
>
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-4 Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
>> Put on NFS for the first time today. 12 drops on my lng 1x9 Gus's 
>> chain, in high gear (small cog), back spun 12 times, no wipe. It shifted 
>> wonderfully smooth. I'll see how long it goes before asking for more and 
>> how it handles mud and frozen slop; however, so far I'm impressed.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Garth]

WD-40 is just fine by me Stan !  It's the original "clean and lube in one" 
concept that other brands have tried to copy or improve on. 



On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 8:53:24 PM UTC-4, stanw...@bellsouth.net 
wrote:
>
> I suspect I'll get a lot of grief for this...
>
> For many years I've been using WD-40 on our bicycle chains.  I spray it on 
> while spinning the chain, let it set for a half hour or so and wipe the 
> excess off with a paper shop towel.  
>
> I first started using WD on the O-ring drive chains on our Ducati 
> motorcycles.  We had been riding BMW shaft drive bikes for years and I 
> wasn't sure what to do with lubing motorcycle chains.  The fellow who was 
> president of the local Ducati club, who had a LOT of bikes, suggested 
> WD-40. 
>
> In 1986 he had purchased a new Suzuki GSXR750, a pretty powerful bike at 
> the time, and decided to experiment with WD-40 as a chain lube.  He would 
> apply the WD at the end of a ride.
>
> We bought the Ducs and met Jim around 2000.  He was running the original 
> chain on the Gixxer then, so I figured I'd give it a shot.  I did that for 
> our road bikes and my track bike as well.  Never had any problems and had 
> normal service life from the chains.  I figured that it was good enough for 
> drive chains on eighty or so hp motorcycles that were frequently ridden in 
> the rain, it was good enough for our bicycles.  I suspect the trick with 
> drive chains, whether on bicycles, motorcycles or a manure spreaders is 
> keeping the chain clean.  
>
> I'm not advocating or recommending.  I'm merely sharing my experience.
>
> Stan
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Corwin]

Hi Paul -

If you want to find out about riding a chain with no lube - look to Paul 
Price of Paul Components. He is notorious for riding his bikes without 
maintaining them to see how long it takes parts to fail.

Namaste,


Corwin

On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 1:17:08 PM UTC-7, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at ALL?
>
> This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of 
> posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't 
> find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.
>
> I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I 
> bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about 
> belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.
>
> Paul
>
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-4 Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
>> Put on NFS for the first time today. 12 drops on my lng 1x9 Gus's 
>> chain, in high gear (small cog), back spun 12 times, no wipe. It shifted 
>> wonderfully smooth. I'll see how long it goes before asking for more and 
>> how it handles mud and frozen slop; however, so far I'm impressed.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hi Corwin

I'm going to try to find a link to that. Or just write Paul, he's pretty 
responsive. :)

Never using lube would be the holy grail for me. I hate the gunk.

On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 1:08:06 AM UTC-4 Corwin wrote:

> Hi Paul -
>
> If you want to find out about riding a chain with no lube - look to Paul 
> Price of Paul Components. He is notorious for riding his bikes without 
> maintaining them to see how long it takes parts to fail.
>
> Namaste,
>
>
> Corwin
>
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 1:17:08 PM UTC-7, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at ALL?
>>
>> This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of 
>> posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't 
>> find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.
>>
>> I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I 
>> bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about 
>> belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-4 Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>>> Put on NFS for the first time today. 12 drops on my lng 1x9 Gus's 
>>> chain, in high gear (small cog), back spun 12 times, no wipe. It shifted 
>>> wonderfully smooth. I'll see how long it goes before asking for more and 
>>> how it handles mud and frozen slop; however, so far I'm impressed.
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Whatcha Oughtter]

Does anyone know what’s on chains when they are new out of the box? It 
always seems sticky but doesn’t seem to attract too much dirt, is really 
smooth and quiet and lasts a long time. After the factory lube is gone I 
use tri-flow with pretty good results. I used motorcycle chain lube for a 
while that sprayed on thin and penetrated into the nooks and crannies but 
dried out thick like a grease. It attracted all kinds of grit and wore out 
a chain in very short order. -John

On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 9:02:08 AM UTC-7, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:
>
> Hi Corwin
>
> I'm going to try to find a link to that. Or just write Paul, he's pretty 
> responsive. :)
>
> Never using lube would be the holy grail for me. I hate the gunk.
>
> On Friday, July 31, 2020 at 1:08:06 AM UTC-4 Corwin wrote:
>
>> Hi Paul -
>>
>> If you want to find out about riding a chain with no lube - look to Paul 
>> Price of Paul Components. He is notorious for riding his bikes without 
>> maintaining them to see how long it takes parts to fail.
>>
>> Namaste,
>>
>>
>> Corwin
>>
>> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 1:17:08 PM UTC-7, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:
>>>
>>> Has anyone ever tried cleaning their chain and NEVER applying lube at 
>>> ALL?
>>>
>>> This may be an absolutely idiotic question, but there are all kinds of 
>>> posts all over the web about people who think lube is a scam, but I can't 
>>> find anyone that has actually tested the theory with a top-quality chain.
>>>
>>> I've ridden belt drive bikes exclusively for the last 12 years, until I 
>>> bought an Atlantis recently and my life changed. The one nice thing about 
>>> belts is you just hose off the bike now and then.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020 at 3:33:00 PM UTC-4 Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
 Put on NFS for the first time today. 12 drops on my lng 1x9 Gus's 
 chain, in high gear (small cog), back spun 12 times, no wipe. It shifted 
 wonderfully smooth. I'll see how long it goes before asking for more and 
 how it handles mud and frozen slop; however, so far I'm impressed.

 With abandon,
 Patrick

>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

John

Don't know what the OEMs use ot how the apply it, but agree it's last for 
about 500M.  

Does TriFlow attract dirt???

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:56:10 PM UTC-4, Whatcha Oughtter wrote:
>
> Does anyone know what’s on chains when they are new out of the box? It 
> always seems sticky but doesn’t seem to attract too much dirt, is really 
> smooth and quiet and lasts a long time. After the factory lube is gone I 
> use tri-flow with pretty good results. I used motorcycle chain lube for a 
> while that sprayed on thin and penetrated into the nooks and crannies but 
> dried out thick like a grease. It attracted all kinds of grit and wore out 
> a chain in very short order. -John
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello Everyone. 

I contacted Adam Kerin a few weeks back, who runs Zero Friction. (http://
www.zerofrictioncycling.com.au). His website's mission is to get the lowest 
friction possible on bicycle chains for bike racing. While that's the 
antithesis to Rivendell, I asked him about the cleanest chain lube that 
doesn't involve waxing, since one side effect of low friction is lubes are 
many are very clean. He wrote a REALLY LONG response, the upshot being he 
likes SMOOV lube. I ordered some and it arrived yesterday!

Adam's recommendation was to wax once, then use Smoov after. Waxing is a 
lot of work, so as an experiment yesterday I just cleaned the hell out of 
one of my chains by sticking it in a big plastic bottle, covering it with 
chain degreaser, and shaking it (Sheldon Brown method). Then went over it a 
second time with a brush and did the same with my drivetrain. Still a 
little grease in the joints of the chain, but shiny clean and not sticky 
for the most part . I'm going to try Smoov today and will report back.

Adam also sells pre-waxed and pre-cleaned chains.

Here's Adam's long response for those of you who want to read it:

"Waxing is by far and way the best but outright treatment if longevity is 
not its main brief and if push re-wax treatments then past about 300km the 
chain will feel and sound very dry and friction and wear ramps up, and 
popping them off for a re-wax all the time may not be feasible for your 
operation.

The best combo is likely to be an initial remove chain and strip clean 
factory grease as per instructions in my wax zen master guide ( factory 
grease needs to come off anyway), and initially wax with msw. Then after 
bikes have done about 200kms move to smoove. Smoove is a very cheap but 
very long lasting per application lube with excellent low wear and 
contamination resistance. A bottle is $25 and lasts a long time – you only 
apply 2 to 3ml per re lube and a re-lube will last about 800km. Re-lube 
technique with smoove is important however, lube needs to be warm (and 
preferably chain as well but it will be ok if not - its just better if it 
is), work in thoroughly by backpedalling about 30 times, then WIPE OFF 
EXCESS THROUGLY, and allow overnight set. Doing this smoove stays very 
clean and not gunky for a good stretch, however every approx. 3000km a 
clean and start over is great if you can.

Many use msw start then smoove for cycling holidays, cross continent races 
etc – it is a great combo – msw negates smooves initial penetration issues.

Have a look at waxing zen master guide and smoove advanced application 
guide – may seem a bit but in reality its easy, and it will help kids learn 
some great skills, and it will deliver the level of low maintenance, low 
friction and very cheap lubricant running costs you are looking for.
(only issues is both myself and importer are currently out of smoove, but 
more in stock soon… ish…..)

IF one slathers smoove on and doesn’t wipe excess then you will gunk things 
up, but if you apply as per instructions you leave a high performing 
lubricant INSIDE the chain where it is needed, not outside to gather 
airborne dust and contamination and so the outside stays impressively clean 
for an impressive period. With traditional oils / wet lubes ever single 
particle of airborne dust (of which there is a lot, just shine a bright 
torch into the air at night) will stick on contact which is why they go 
downhill very quickly re mess, friction and wear. Don’t even get me started 
on white lightning lubes, they are up there as the worst in the industry. 
You could walk into your pantry right now and randomly mix together 
anything you have in there that is liquid, and you will make a better lube 
than any white lightning product.

Smoove sets to a semi solid plastic state so it is very contamination 
resistant and so wont be phased much by puddles and general airborne 
contamination. If they don’t clock up many miles, you will get a very long 
run out of the msw the smoove lubed chains indeed."


Hope this helps, I'll report back. 

I may buy one of his cleaned chains and try that out if this doesn't work!


Paul




On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> John
>
> Don't know what the OEMs use ot how the apply it, but agree it's last for 
> about 500M.  
>
> Does TriFlow attract dirt???
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
> On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:56:10 PM UTC-4, Whatcha Oughtter wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know what’s on chains when they are new out of the box? It 
>> always seems sticky but doesn’t seem to attract too much dirt, is really 
>> smooth and quiet and lasts a long time. After the factory lube is gone I 
>> use tri-flow with pretty good results. I used motorcycle chain lube for a 
>> while that sprayed on thin and penetrated into the nooks and crannies but 
>> dried out thick like a grease. It attracted all kinds of grit and wore out 
>> a chain in very short order. -John
>>

Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Patrick Moore]

Paul: Please do report back. I ride in sandy conditions, and used paraffin
wax for years, then a few years ago switched to Molten Speed Wax, which
very definitely lasts longer, but still only a short while before the
chains get noisy. I have no scientific evidence that chain noise means more
wear, but I still use it as a signal to re-lube. I now get about 200 miles
of pavement riding from a chain job compared to 100 from grocery store
paraffin.

If the Smoov product lasts much longer at the expense of a bit of wiping,
and if it doesn't attract grit even when riding in sandy conditions, I will
be very interested.

On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:45 AM ☆ Paul ☆  wrote:

> Hello Everyone.
>
> I contacted Adam Kerin a few weeks back, who runs Zero Friction. (http://
> www.zerofrictioncycling.com.au). His website's mission is to get the
> lowest friction possible on bicycle chains for bike racing. While that's
> the antithesis to Rivendell, I asked him about the cleanest chain lube that
> doesn't involve waxing, since one side effect of low friction is lubes are
> many are very clean. He wrote a REALLY LONG response, the upshot being he
> likes SMOOV lube. I ordered some and it arrived yesterday!
>
> Adam's recommendation was to wax once, then use Smoov after. Waxing is a
> lot of work, so as an experiment yesterday I just cleaned the hell out of
> one of my chains by sticking it in a big plastic bottle, covering it with
> chain degreaser, and shaking it (Sheldon Brown method). Then went over it a
> second time with a brush and did the same with my drivetrain. Still a
> little grease in the joints of the chain, but shiny clean and not sticky
> for the most part . I'm going to try Smoov today and will report back.
>
> Adam also sells pre-waxed and pre-cleaned chains.
>
> Here's Adam's long response for those of you who want to read it:
>
> "Waxing is by far and way the best but outright treatment if longevity is
> not its main brief and if push re-wax treatments then past about 300km the
> chain will feel and sound very dry and friction and wear ramps up, and
> popping them off for a re-wax all the time may not be feasible for your
> operation.
>
> The best combo is likely to be an initial remove chain and strip clean
> factory grease as per instructions in my wax zen master guide ( factory
> grease needs to come off anyway), and initially wax with msw. Then after
> bikes have done about 200kms move to smoove. Smoove is a very cheap but
> very long lasting per application lube with excellent low wear and
> contamination resistance. A bottle is $25 and lasts a long time – you only
> apply 2 to 3ml per re lube and a re-lube will last about 800km. Re-lube
> technique with smoove is important however, lube needs to be warm (and
> preferably chain as well but it will be ok if not - its just better if it
> is), work in thoroughly by backpedalling about 30 times, then WIPE OFF
> EXCESS THROUGLY, and allow overnight set. Doing this smoove stays very
> clean and not gunky for a good stretch, however every approx. 3000km a
> clean and start over is great if you can.
>
> Many use msw start then smoove for cycling holidays, cross continent races
> etc – it is a great combo – msw negates smooves initial penetration issues.
>
> Have a look at waxing zen master guide and smoove advanced application
> guide – may seem a bit but in reality its easy, and it will help kids learn
> some great skills, and it will deliver the level of low maintenance, low
> friction and very cheap lubricant running costs you are looking for.
> (only issues is both myself and importer are currently out of smoove, but
> more in stock soon… ish…..)
>
> IF one slathers smoove on and doesn’t wipe excess then you will gunk
> things up, but if you apply as per instructions you leave a high performing
> lubricant INSIDE the chain where it is needed, not outside to gather
> airborne dust and contamination and so the outside stays impressively clean
> for an impressive period. With traditional oils / wet lubes ever single
> particle of airborne dust (of which there is a lot, just shine a bright
> torch into the air at night) will stick on contact which is why they go
> downhill very quickly re mess, friction and wear. Don’t even get me started
> on white lightning lubes, they are up there as the worst in the industry.
> You could walk into your pantry right now and randomly mix together
> anything you have in there that is liquid, and you will make a better lube
> than any white lightning product.
>
> Smoove sets to a semi solid plastic state so it is very contamination
> resistant and so wont be phased much by puddles and general airborne
> contamination. If they don’t clock up many miles, you will get a very long
> run out of the msw the smoove lubed chains indeed."
>
>
> Hope this helps, I'll report back.
>
> I may buy one of his cleaned chains and try that out if this doesn't work!
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 10:57:28 PM UTC-4, John Hawry

Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Whatcha Oughtter]

Tri-flow doesn’t doesn’t attract the dirt but it has Teflon, which is probably 
good for lubrication, but there’s been some health concerns lately, although on 
non-stick cooking surfaces- I don’t plan on eating off my bike chain! -John

> On Aug 5, 2020, at 7:57 PM, 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> John
> 
> Don't know what the OEMs use ot how the apply it, but agree it's last for 
> about 500M.  
> 
> Does TriFlow attract dirt???
> 
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
> 
>> On Wednesday, August 5, 2020 at 5:56:10 PM UTC-4, Whatcha Oughtter wrote:
>> Does anyone know what’s on chains when they are new out of the box? It 
>> always seems sticky but doesn’t seem to attract too much dirt, is really 
>> smooth and quiet and lasts a long time. After the factory lube is gone I use 
>> tri-flow with pretty good results. I used motorcycle chain lube for a while 
>> that sprayed on thin and penetrated into the nooks and crannies but dried 
>> out thick like a grease. It attracted all kinds of grit and wore out a chain 
>> in very short order. -John
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Jack K]

I've been following a variant of Zero Friction Adam's suggested routine for 
years, but unlike Adam I adopted that routine out of laziness. I hot wax 
with Chain Wax(TM), a paraffin + PTFE product that I bought a lifetime 
supply of when it went off the market 20-ish years ago. Between hot waxings 
I lube up with Boeshield (usually) or ProGold (until the bottle runs out). 
Somewhere I got a tiny drip bottle of Boeshield about the size of my thumb, 
which is easy to carry on the bike when need be and it's easy to refill. 

Boeshield is fairly clean stuff, but eventually the chain does get to the 
point where it leaves a smudge on your calf if you bump it. I take that as 
a sign it's time for an off-bike clean and hot wax treatment. Sounds like 
maybe Smoov would be better than Boeshield? I'll likely give it a try in a 
decade or so when my supply of Boeshield runs out.

-Jack

On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:45:16 AM UTC-4, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone. 
>
> I contacted Adam Kerin a few weeks back, who runs Zero Friction. (http://
> www.zerofrictioncycling.com.au). His website's mission is to get the 
> lowest friction possible on bicycle chains for bike racing. While that's 
> the antithesis to Rivendell, I asked him about the cleanest chain lube that 
> doesn't involve waxing, since one side effect of low friction is lubes are 
> many are very clean. He wrote a REALLY LONG response, the upshot being he 
> likes SMOOV lube. I ordered some and it arrived yesterday!
>
> Adam's recommendation was to wax once, then use Smoov after. Waxing is a 
> lot of work, so as an experiment yesterday I just cleaned the hell out of 
> one of my chains by sticking it in a big plastic bottle, covering it with 
> chain degreaser, and shaking it (Sheldon Brown method). Then went over it a 
> second time with a brush and did the same with my drivetrain. Still a 
> little grease in the joints of the chain, but shiny clean and not sticky 
> for the most part . I'm going to try Smoov today and will report back.
>
> Adam also sells pre-waxed and pre-cleaned chains.
>
> Here's Adam's long response for those of you who want to read it:
>
> "Waxing is by far and way the best but outright treatment if longevity is 
> not its main brief and if push re-wax treatments then past about 300km the 
> chain will feel and sound very dry and friction and wear ramps up, and 
> popping them off for a re-wax all the time may not be feasible for your 
> operation.
>
> The best combo is likely to be an initial remove chain and strip clean 
> factory grease as per instructions in my wax zen master guide ( factory 
> grease needs to come off anyway), and initially wax with msw. Then after 
> bikes have done about 200kms move to smoove. Smoove is a very cheap but 
> very long lasting per application lube with excellent low wear and 
> contamination resistance. A bottle is $25 and lasts a long time – you only 
> apply 2 to 3ml per re lube and a re-lube will last about 800km. Re-lube 
> technique with smoove is important however, lube needs to be warm (and 
> preferably chain as well but it will be ok if not - its just better if it 
> is), work in thoroughly by backpedalling about 30 times, then WIPE OFF 
> EXCESS THROUGLY, and allow overnight set. Doing this smoove stays very 
> clean and not gunky for a good stretch, however every approx. 3000km a 
> clean and start over is great if you can.
>
> Many use msw start then smoove for cycling holidays, cross continent races 
> etc – it is a great combo – msw negates smooves initial penetration issues.
>
> Have a look at waxing zen master guide and smoove advanced application 
> guide – may seem a bit but in reality its easy, and it will help kids learn 
> some great skills, and it will deliver the level of low maintenance, low 
> friction and very cheap lubricant running costs you are looking for.
> (only issues is both myself and importer are currently out of smoove, but 
> more in stock soon… ish…..)
>
> IF one slathers smoove on and doesn’t wipe excess then you will gunk 
> things up, but if you apply as per instructions you leave a high performing 
> lubricant INSIDE the chain where it is needed, not outside to gather 
> airborne dust and contamination and so the outside stays impressively clean 
> for an impressive period. With traditional oils / wet lubes ever single 
> particle of airborne dust (of which there is a lot, just shine a bright 
> torch into the air at night) will stick on contact which is why they go 
> downhill very quickly re mess, friction and wear. Don’t even get me started 
> on white lightning lubes, they are up there as the worst in the industry. 
> You could walk into your pantry right now and randomly mix together 
> anything you have in there that is liquid, and you will make a better lube 
> than any white lightning product.
>
> Smoove sets to a semi solid plastic state so it is very contamination 
> resistant and so wont be phased much by puddles and general airborne 
>

Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[☆ Paul ☆]

Hello Jack.

No idea if Smoov is better than what you do — may not given the deep 
cleaning you do. But it is simpler and easier (so far). 

It'll take another month or two before I can really say! It gets cold and 
muddy here in VT, which should be a good test. 

Best.

Paul

On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 at 12:54:58 PM UTC-4, Jack K wrote:
>
> I've been following a variant of Zero Friction Adam's suggested routine 
> for years, but unlike Adam I adopted that routine out of laziness. I hot 
> wax with Chain Wax(TM), a paraffin + PTFE product that I bought a lifetime 
> supply of when it went off the market 20-ish years ago. Between hot waxings 
> I lube up with Boeshield (usually) or ProGold (until the bottle runs out). 
> Somewhere I got a tiny drip bottle of Boeshield about the size of my thumb, 
> which is easy to carry on the bike when need be and it's easy to refill. 
>
> Boeshield is fairly clean stuff, but eventually the chain does get to the 
> point where it leaves a smudge on your calf if you bump it. I take that as 
> a sign it's time for an off-bike clean and hot wax treatment. Sounds like 
> maybe Smoov would be better than Boeshield? I'll likely give it a try in a 
> decade or so when my supply of Boeshield runs out.
>
> -Jack
>
> On Thursday, August 6, 2020 at 7:45:16 AM UTC-4, ☆ Paul ☆ wrote:
>>
>> Hello Everyone. 
>>
>> I contacted Adam Kerin a few weeks back, who runs Zero Friction. (http://
>> www.zerofrictioncycling.com.au). His website's mission is to get the 
>> lowest friction possible on bicycle chains for bike racing. While that's 
>> the antithesis to Rivendell, I asked him about the cleanest chain lube that 
>> doesn't involve waxing, since one side effect of low friction is lubes are 
>> many are very clean. He wrote a REALLY LONG response, the upshot being he 
>> likes SMOOV lube. I ordered some and it arrived yesterday!
>>
>> Adam's recommendation was to wax once, then use Smoov after. Waxing is a 
>> lot of work, so as an experiment yesterday I just cleaned the hell out of 
>> one of my chains by sticking it in a big plastic bottle, covering it with 
>> chain degreaser, and shaking it (Sheldon Brown method). Then went over it a 
>> second time with a brush and did the same with my drivetrain. Still a 
>> little grease in the joints of the chain, but shiny clean and not sticky 
>> for the most part . I'm going to try Smoov today and will report back.
>>
>> Adam also sells pre-waxed and pre-cleaned chains.
>>
>> Here's Adam's long response for those of you who want to read it:
>>
>> "Waxing is by far and way the best but outright treatment if longevity is 
>> not its main brief and if push re-wax treatments then past about 300km the 
>> chain will feel and sound very dry and friction and wear ramps up, and 
>> popping them off for a re-wax all the time may not be feasible for your 
>> operation.
>>
>> The best combo is likely to be an initial remove chain and strip clean 
>> factory grease as per instructions in my wax zen master guide ( factory 
>> grease needs to come off anyway), and initially wax with msw. Then after 
>> bikes have done about 200kms move to smoove. Smoove is a very cheap but 
>> very long lasting per application lube with excellent low wear and 
>> contamination resistance. A bottle is $25 and lasts a long time – you only 
>> apply 2 to 3ml per re lube and a re-lube will last about 800km. Re-lube 
>> technique with smoove is important however, lube needs to be warm (and 
>> preferably chain as well but it will be ok if not - its just better if it 
>> is), work in thoroughly by backpedalling about 30 times, then WIPE OFF 
>> EXCESS THROUGLY, and allow overnight set. Doing this smoove stays very 
>> clean and not gunky for a good stretch, however every approx. 3000km a 
>> clean and start over is great if you can.
>>
>> Many use msw start then smoove for cycling holidays, cross continent 
>> races etc – it is a great combo – msw negates smooves initial penetration 
>> issues.
>>
>> Have a look at waxing zen master guide and smoove advanced application 
>> guide – may seem a bit but in reality its easy, and it will help kids learn 
>> some great skills, and it will deliver the level of low maintenance, low 
>> friction and very cheap lubricant running costs you are looking for.
>> (only issues is both myself and importer are currently out of smoove, but 
>> more in stock soon… ish…..)
>>
>> IF one slathers smoove on and doesn’t wipe excess then you will gunk 
>> things up, but if you apply as per instructions you leave a high performing 
>> lubricant INSIDE the chain where it is needed, not outside to gather 
>> airborne dust and contamination and so the outside stays impressively clean 
>> for an impressive period. With traditional oils / wet lubes ever single 
>> particle of airborne dust (of which there is a lot, just shine a bright 
>> torch into the air at night) will stick on contact which is why they go 
>> downhill very quickly re mess, friction and w

Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Benjamin L. Kelley]

I gave hot waxing a go last year. It worked, but not better than other
"dry" lubes, and was more hassle I found. I tried Finish Line's dry lube
and found it to be as dirty as regular wet lubes and didn't last very long.
I ended up back with Squirt. It's as clean as hot waxing as far as
attracting grit and grime. Lasts a good while, as long as hot wax it seems.
It is wax in a water based emulsion so goes on easily.  They have a regular
and a low temp version.

--ben


On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:57 PM dougP  wrote:

> Michael:
>
> I find that waxing leaves the chain clean so that it doesn't attract
> dirt.  Even riding off-road it can be simply wiped down.  However, I've
> also done some touring in wet climates & need to take along a conventional
> chain lube as the wax doesn't hold up well in a wet climate.  It is a
> hassle to go thru the process, and 9 chains would take a lot of time.  My
> wife & I only one bike each to doing a few times a year is not a big chore
> for me.  Some time ago, she picked up a fondue pot at a garage sale or
> something, cheap, and it's perfect for one chain at a time.  I just use
> ordinary canning wax (paraffin?), nothing biking specific.
>
> I understand there are also liquid wax chain products but have never tried
> them.  It may be an option for you to consider.
>
> dougP
>
> On Thursday, May 28, 2020 at 4:18:22 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>
>> Greetings, one and all.  It has been a long time, at least a few years,
>> since my last post and I am just assuming my membership is still active.
>>
>> At 75+, I still ride regularly, although not the distances I used to.  I
>> live in a small town in far northern VT, which has mostly dirt roads. I
>> just ride; I don't desire new stuff nor do anything heroic worth writing
>> about.  I have a Ramboulliet, a Trek 620, An early Saluki (my goto ride),
>> and a custom Bilenky touring tandem.  My wife rides a Betty Foy and my
>> daughter a Cheviot.   All but the Trek have fenders but that's still a lot
>> of chains out on dirty roads and a lot of messy time cleaning them.
>>
>> Can you teach an old dog new tricks?  Well maybe.   I clean the chains,
>> rings and cogs with mineral spirits and citrosol.  I use a standard oil
>> lube and wipe them down as best I can.  The process of wiping down the
>> chains inevitably contaminates the rings and cogs with oil and the first
>> ride bleeds oil from the inside to the outside of the chain.  The oil
>> collects dirt, which wears down rings and cogs.  (I just ordered three new
>> rings today, so I'm focused).  Every time I go through this process of
>> cleaning 9 chains, I watch a youtube video on chain waxing but get put off
>> by the initial effort and purchase of a crock pot, ultrasonic cleaner, etc;
>> and wonder if it would really improve this process ; keep the chain cleaner
>> and reduce wear?
>>
>> Your experience, appreciated.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
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> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Patrick Moore]

Michael: FWIW, you don't need ultrasonic cleaning for Molten Wax success;
just do an initial bath in mineral spirits with brush, and wash in hot
water with detergent, rinse, and let dry.

I find your attitude towards tools and instruments very interesting and
appealing; that is how I look at my bikes, and one reason I am so
particular about how they are set up.

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 5:02 AM Michael Hechmer  wrote:

> What an interesting conversation!  I had no idea when I originally asked.
> Now I see that what Deacon does works for Deacon and what Doug, or Patrick,
> or Rich, or.. anyone else does probably works for them and not just
> because of physics but because of lifestyle and personality.
>
> I have three hobbies - hand tool woodworking, bike riding, and tending a
> small garden.  All three of them have in common that they use tools as an
> extension of my body and soul.  It's important to me that the tools work
> seamlessly with my body.  My woodworking tool collection includes some that
> are a hundred years old, some that are forty and some that are brand new,
> but each one is a joy to hold and use.  I maintain them meticulously.  Same
> goes for my bicycles.  I want it to run quietly, respond predictably and
> shift perfectly, every time. That's why I ride Rivendells.  I run  a 9
> speed friction set up and find this works great if I start with high
> quality parts and keep them in good condition.  I'm also constitutionally
> opposed to a throw away world.  (I once brought a twenty five year old
> microwave into a repair shop, only to be greeted with gales of laughter)  I
> recently brought  a Milwaukee drill into a shop to get the switch
> replaced.  The service man took one look at it and said, "You've had this
> awhile haven't you."  and I thought OMG, I've become my father!  I run
> ultegra cassettes, connex chains and Sugino's best rings,  White's or TAs.
> Letting them wear out prematurely is not a good option.
>
> I appreciate all the feedback.  Thank you all.  I think I'm going to give
> Squirt a try.  I've been looking at sonic cleaners on line.  Everyone I
> looked at in the $75 range seemed to have about a 15% early failure rate.
> The Molten site sells one for $139 plus up to $25 for shipping.  Ouch.
> Maybe I'll give more traditional cleaning methods a deeper try as a prep
> for wax.
>
> Doug reminds me that on a sticky hot day,  going down into the cool of the
> basement and cleaning bike parts isn't all bad.
>
> Michael
>
> On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 11:43:15 PM UTC-4, dougP wrote:
>>
>> *"So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying
>> to extend the life of chainrings?*
>>
>> Michael:
>>
>> You've hit on the core question.  There are so many different situations
>> that it's hard to generalize.  There is no optimal solution for all
>> conditions.  The questions for each of us should be:
>>
>> 1.  How long do I expect drivetrain parts to last?  If you ride 2,000
>> miles per year, and get a year out of a chain & cassette, and a couple of
>> years out of chainrings, then you may want to be more diligent about
>> cleaning & lubrication, esp. if it's a big hit money-wise.  OTH, if you get
>> many years out of your drive train and / or the financial incentive is low,
>> you can be more casual.  The occasional spritz with whatever your LBS is
>> selling will work.
>>
>> 2.  How much trouble & effort do I want to expend on this to optimize
>> drive train life?  If it's a satisfying chore you don't mind doing, then
>> some combo of thorough cleaning & careful lubrication is for you.  Everyone
>> needs a hobby.  OTH, if the whole thing is a huge PITA that you put off
>> doing, then the casual spritz works.
>>
>>  Related considerations:
>>
>> 3.   Cost of components:  7-8-9 speed cassettes are under $30; chains
>> under $20.  Decent chainrings are $25.  What's the real value of trying to
>> squeeze a bit of extra life out these?  Are you a student on a tight budget
>> or retired with plenty of cash?  OTH, if you're into the latest drivetrain
>> components such as 11 & 12 speed, now you're looking at a whole lot more
>> money.
>>
>> 4.  Riding mileage: Does each bike get perhaps 1,000 miles per year or
>> 10,000 miles?  Lower mileage suggests more casual care may work.  Higher
>> mileage requires more effort (either time or money) to keep things ticking
>> over properly.
>>
>> 5.  Climate: If you're in a dry, clean climate, you get more miles out of
>> a lube job.  However, wet and / or dusty or dirty environments are tough on
>> chains et al.  E..g., I'm in a warm, dry, dust free climate.  What works in
>> my climate would be a disaster for me in Deacon Patrick's climate.  Wax
>> doesn't like wet conditions.
>>
>> Hope this helps the evaluation process.
>>
>> dougP
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 4:30:40 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
>>>
>>> Deacon, how good to connect with you again, even when I think you are
>>> wrong!  At one level you are ri

Re: [RBW] Re: Hot Waxing Chains

[Patrick Moore]

I should be clear: For success with MSW, clean the chain thoroughly for the
first application; thereafter, no need to clean, just dunk it in and let
soak.

On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 11:00 AM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Michael: FWIW, you don't need ultrasonic cleaning for Molten Wax success;
> just do an initial bath in mineral spirits with brush, and wash in hot
> water with detergent, rinse, and let dry.
>
> I find your attitude towards tools and instruments very interesting and
> appealing; that is how I look at my bikes, and one reason I am so
> particular about how they are set up.
>
> On Sat, May 30, 2020 at 5:02 AM Michael Hechmer 
> wrote:
>
>> What an interesting conversation!  I had no idea when I originally
>> asked.  Now I see that what Deacon does works for Deacon and what Doug, or
>> Patrick, or Rich, or.. anyone else does probably works for them and not
>> just because of physics but because of lifestyle and personality.
>>
>> I have three hobbies - hand tool woodworking, bike riding, and tending a
>> small garden.  All three of them have in common that they use tools as an
>> extension of my body and soul.  It's important to me that the tools work
>> seamlessly with my body.  My woodworking tool collection includes some that
>> are a hundred years old, some that are forty and some that are brand new,
>> but each one is a joy to hold and use.  I maintain them meticulously.  Same
>> goes for my bicycles.  I want it to run quietly, respond predictably and
>> shift perfectly, every time. That's why I ride Rivendells.  I run  a 9
>> speed friction set up and find this works great if I start with high
>> quality parts and keep them in good condition.  I'm also constitutionally
>> opposed to a throw away world.  (I once brought a twenty five year old
>> microwave into a repair shop, only to be greeted with gales of laughter)  I
>> recently brought  a Milwaukee drill into a shop to get the switch
>> replaced.  The service man took one look at it and said, "You've had this
>> awhile haven't you."  and I thought OMG, I've become my father!  I run
>> ultegra cassettes, connex chains and Sugino's best rings,  White's or TAs.
>> Letting them wear out prematurely is not a good option.
>>
>> I appreciate all the feedback.  Thank you all.  I think I'm going to give
>> Squirt a try.  I've been looking at sonic cleaners on line.  Everyone I
>> looked at in the $75 range seemed to have about a 15% early failure rate.
>> The Molten site sells one for $139 plus up to $25 for shipping.  Ouch.
>> Maybe I'll give more traditional cleaning methods a deeper try as a prep
>> for wax.
>>
>> Doug reminds me that on a sticky hot day,  going down into the cool of
>> the basement and cleaning bike parts isn't all bad.
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> On Friday, May 29, 2020 at 11:43:15 PM UTC-4, dougP wrote:
>>>
>>> *"So the real issue is, how much of my life do I want to give up trying
>>> to extend the life of chainrings?*
>>>
>>> Michael:
>>>
>>> You've hit on the core question.  There are so many different situations
>>> that it's hard to generalize.  There is no optimal solution for all
>>> conditions.  The questions for each of us should be:
>>>
>>> 1.  How long do I expect drivetrain parts to last?  If you ride 2,000
>>> miles per year, and get a year out of a chain & cassette, and a couple of
>>> years out of chainrings, then you may want to be more diligent about
>>> cleaning & lubrication, esp. if it's a big hit money-wise.  OTH, if you get
>>> many years out of your drive train and / or the financial incentive is low,
>>> you can be more casual.  The occasional spritz with whatever your LBS is
>>> selling will work.
>>>
>>> 2.  How much trouble & effort do I want to expend on this to optimize
>>> drive train life?  If it's a satisfying chore you don't mind doing, then
>>> some combo of thorough cleaning & careful lubrication is for you.  Everyone
>>> needs a hobby.  OTH, if the whole thing is a huge PITA that you put off
>>> doing, then the casual spritz works.
>>>
>>>  Related considerations:
>>>
>>> 3.   Cost of components:  7-8-9 speed cassettes are under $30; chains
>>> under $20.  Decent chainrings are $25.  What's the real value of trying to
>>> squeeze a bit of extra life out these?  Are you a student on a tight budget
>>> or retired with plenty of cash?  OTH, if you're into the latest drivetrain
>>> components such as 11 & 12 speed, now you're looking at a whole lot more
>>> money.
>>>
>>> 4.  Riding mileage: Does each bike get perhaps 1,000 miles per year or
>>> 10,000 miles?  Lower mileage suggests more casual care may work.  Higher
>>> mileage requires more effort (either time or money) to keep things ticking
>>> over properly.
>>>
>>> 5.  Climate: If you're in a dry, clean climate, you get more miles out
>>> of a lube job.  However, wet and / or dusty or dirty environments are tough
>>> on chains et al.  E..g., I'm in a warm, dry, dust free climate.  What works
>>> in my climate would be a disaster for me in Deac