[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
I'm trying to find the link, I saw the results of a lab study on this just recently, but can't find it yet. If I recall, good carbon fiber is strong. Really strong. It outlasted the steel by a lot in the lab test. Even Grant has found this before, in their impromptu fork sword fight the CF one actually bent one of the steel ones when impacted. (I did always find it a bit cheating that the way he got the CF one to fail was to score it.) The thing he took comfort in in the end is my favorite reason to advocate steel for a bicycle over CF, and that's failure mode. Used as intended and not abused, a carbon fiber frame might even outlast a steel one. It's just they don't tend to fare as well if they take the sort of usual knocks, falls, and collisions a bike tends to go through. Once there's been some damage, the failure mode tends to be sudden and catastrophic rather than slow and visible. A good chance to take as a performance-minded person for performance-minded uses, but at odds with that core Rivendell belief of making no quadriplegics. I'll keep looking for the link on the strength and durability of the materials. On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: > > Has anyone with real cycling design bona fides done a dispassionate > analysis comparing the advantages and disadvantages of carbon fiber and > steel as materials for bicycle parts and frames? > > For example, local builder Dave Porter claimed, or used to claim (this was > 4-5 years ago) that he could build a steel bike as light as a carbon fiber > one using the latest steels. OTOH, don't they use CF for F1 racing car > cockpit tubs? > > Intelligently used (please note that qualification), would CF be both > lighter and stronger in a bike frame properly designed for that material, > than the best steel? Or just lighter? Or just stronger? Or neither? > > The discussion of CF *as such* and steel *as such* as frame materials so > often doesn't prescind from the stupid light designs used by marketers to > sell new bikes to the gullible. It would be refreshing to see an > intelligent comparison of the materials' real advantages. > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Surlyprof > wrote: > >> *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly >> accepted constraints."* - Charles Eames >> >> I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers. Carbon >> fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any plastic >> material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be reducing or >> eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing processes. It >> continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) the public was >> led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel would reveal the >> flaws in carbon. >> > > -- > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. > Other professional writing services. > http://www.resumespecialties.com/ > www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten > ** > ** > *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a > circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities > revolve. *Chuang Tzu > > *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the > world revolves.) *Carthusian motto > > *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart > > *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Hmph. I could swear I saw something more recent, but all I can find in my history is this quite dated (though still interesting) article from Sheldon's site: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm And this white paper that doesn't do any comparisons but just talks about a lot of the factors that make it hard to just compare all carbon fiber equally (and along with that the different factors that can lead to CF failure more, or lead to it less): http://calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/technical-white-paper/ I'd like to see anything more recent myself. On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-5, Zed Martinez wrote: > > I'm trying to find the link, I saw the results of a lab study on this just > recently, but can't find it yet. If I recall, good carbon fiber is strong. > Really strong. It outlasted the steel by a lot in the lab test. Even Grant > has found this before, in their impromptu fork sword fight the CF one > actually bent one of the steel ones when impacted. (I did always find it a > bit cheating that the way he got the CF one to fail was to score it.) The > thing he took comfort in in the end is my favorite reason to advocate steel > for a bicycle over CF, and that's failure mode. Used as intended and not > abused, a carbon fiber frame might even outlast a steel one. It's just they > don't tend to fare as well if they take the sort of usual knocks, falls, > and collisions a bike tends to go through. Once there's been some damage, > the failure mode tends to be sudden and catastrophic rather than slow and > visible. A good chance to take as a performance-minded person for > performance-minded uses, but at odds with that core Rivendell belief of > making no quadriplegics. I'll keep looking for the link on the strength and > durability of the materials. > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> Has anyone with real cycling design bona fides done a dispassionate >> analysis comparing the advantages and disadvantages of carbon fiber and >> steel as materials for bicycle parts and frames? >> >> For example, local builder Dave Porter claimed, or used to claim (this >> was 4-5 years ago) that he could build a steel bike as light as a carbon >> fiber one using the latest steels. OTOH, don't they use CF for F1 racing >> car cockpit tubs? >> >> Intelligently used (please note that qualification), would CF be both >> lighter and stronger in a bike frame properly designed for that material, >> than the best steel? Or just lighter? Or just stronger? Or neither? >> >> The discussion of CF *as such* and steel *as such* as frame materials so >> often doesn't prescind from the stupid light designs used by marketers to >> sell new bikes to the gullible. It would be refreshing to see an >> intelligent comparison of the materials' real advantages. >> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Surlyprof wrote: >> >>> *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly >>> accepted constraints."* - Charles Eames >>> >>> I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers. >>> Carbon fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any >>> plastic material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be >>> reducing or eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing >>> processes. It continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) >>> the public was led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel >>> would reveal the flaws in carbon. >>> >> >> -- >> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. >> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. >> Other professional writing services. >> http://www.resumespecialties.com/ >> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ >> Patrick Moore >> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten >> * >> *** >> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a >> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities >> revolve. *Chuang Tzu >> >> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the >> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto >> >> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart >> >> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
You can't get any more dispassionate than magic 8-ball. So I asked your question to magic 8-ball. Here's the answer I got: Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 12:01:03 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote: > > Has anyone with real cycling design bona fides done a dispassionate > analysis comparing the advantages and disadvantages of carbon fiber and > steel as materials for bicycle parts and frames? > > For example, local builder Dave Porter claimed, or used to claim (this was > 4-5 years ago) that he could build a steel bike as light as a carbon fiber > one using the latest steels. OTOH, don't they use CF for F1 racing car > cockpit tubs? > > Intelligently used (please note that qualification), would CF be both > lighter and stronger in a bike frame properly designed for that material, > than the best steel? Or just lighter? Or just stronger? Or neither? > > The discussion of CF *as such* and steel *as such* as frame materials so > often doesn't prescind from the stupid light designs used by marketers to > sell new bikes to the gullible. It would be refreshing to see an > intelligent comparison of the materials' real advantages. > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Surlyprof > wrote: > >> *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly >> accepted constraints."* - Charles Eames >> >> I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers. Carbon >> fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any plastic >> material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be reducing or >> eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing processes. It >> continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) the public was >> led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel would reveal the >> flaws in carbon. >> > > -- > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. > Other professional writing services. > http://www.resumespecialties.com/ > www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten > ** > ** > *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a > circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities > revolve. *Chuang Tzu > > *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the > world revolves.) *Carthusian motto > > *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart > > *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
I don't know from carbon, but I don't trust it because of: 1. *The strict torque requirements.* Two of my Giant Defy's composite seatposts longitudinally cracked with use over shorts periods of time - like one a year or something. The first one may have been my fault, I don't know, as I didn't know about torque specs at the start of my road biking, but I am not a ham fisted mechanic. The* second seat post* came to me under warranty and I used a torque wrench. As time passed I discovered that this second one *still split*. I finally just got an aluminum one. I don't even know if they split due to tightening or some other factor. With my metal bikes and components I tighten to feel, but don't over do it. I usually snug in a smooth motion, and then give it one smooth tightening movement, stopping short of overdoing it. Never jerky. I don't tighten it 'til it smokes, either. 2. Also, the myriad stories of busted carbon, and how a little knick turns into an epic fail, and even time can lead to a catastrophic fail, *and the fact that inspecting the bike can't always tell you when something is failing* all lead me to look for an all metal bike for my next one. Giant didn't have any all alu bikes at the time. So I looked around online for all metal bikes and that's how I found Rivendell. I'm not saying anything is wrong with carbon. I just don't feel safe on it. And sure, steel can fail, too. But I feel safer on metal than on carbon. I like the lightness of carbon, though. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm tires. I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike. Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike. Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Calfee can provide such a bike as well. Double the price? Maybe, maybe not. I have owned a Rivendell Road and still own a Calfee Tetra. A Calfee Tetra Pro frame with fork runs $3670 - $3895, though options can push that higher. Certainly not double the price of a custom Riv ($3500), not quite double the price of a Roadeo ($2200). Both are hand built frames. The Riv is prettier, the Calfee is lighter. Both handle well. The Calfee is, dare I say it, faster in a sprint or up a hill. Neither one ever let me down. Either one could be repaired should it be damaged, but I suspect fixing the steel bike would be more expensive (the Calfee has no paint, so no repaint needed after mending). Different horses for different courses. There's room for both in the world. Now I'll put on my nomex and fix a bowl of popcorn. Bill On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:23:36 PM UTC-8, Scott G. wrote: > > Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm > tires. > I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike. > > Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike. > > Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
I think where carbon falls down in Bike World is that it has to be good stuff well designed in order to trust it. That's the only version you find in passenger jets and Formula One cars, but not so with bicycles. The difference between cheap steel and cheap carbon in our world is that the former just rides like a heavier bike, while the latter can snap in two under you if it's too thin, poorly laid up, or knocked into a couple light poles. I get emails all the time from BikesDirect with generic Chinese carbon road bikes at absurdly low prices. I have no idea who made them, or if they have the first clue how carbon needs to be formed into a bike frame to make it trustworthy. Not gon do it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
just because...:p https://www.facebook.com/PlusSizeBMX/photos/a.97024771684.102024.94683306684/10153125537041685/?type=3&theater > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
It connected right at the headtube-to-BB plane via the strongest tube on a bike, the downtube. And did so on a not-cheap Look. Just like on jets and race cars, sometimes carbon works on bikes. Too bad about the obscenely expensive repair for that steel car ;) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
I met a Randonneur who has an aluminum frame with Caron fork bike. He says he throws away the fork I think every three years he said and installs a new one. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
After many cycle tours, I have come to prefer using a single large bag up front on a porteur style rack and if the need is there a saddle bag. Despite reading many claims that CF is as good or better than steel so far not aware of any CF fork or seat post recommended for this sort of set up. And yes, I have asked custom builders who recommended I instead go with a steel fork. Certainly not claiming it cannot be done. But interesting no one wants to do it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
You've gotta work within the limits of the material. My Calfee does have a carbon post (Easton) that came with the frame, but I would never consider a carbon bar or stem and it does not carry a saddle bag. Bill On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 6:04:29 AM UTC-8, Matthew J wrote: > > After many cycle tours, I have come to prefer using a single large bag up > front on a porteur style rack and if the need is there a saddle bag. > > Despite reading many claims that CF is as good or better than steel so far > not aware of any CF fork or seat post recommended for this sort of set up. > > And yes, I have asked custom builders who recommended I instead go with a > steel fork. Certainly not claiming it cannot be done. But interesting no > one wants to do it. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Would be funny if RBW made just one full carbon Homer bike with carbon lugs, just to have hanging on the wall in their HQ. It could have a head badge with a picture of Grant, rampant on a field of carbon, and they could call it the Rivendell "a carbon Hilsen". -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
FWIW, throughout the country there are many framebuilders who simply are not a "big name" . They cater to a local and/or regional market. Some more detailed/fancy than others. Some less than $2k or even $1500. I personally don't care for lots of details or fancy paint jobs, it's all about the qualities of the frame which cannot be seen or measured in any way . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
I used to work for a well known helicopter manufacturer. I worked as a mechanic, building helicopters. I can tell you, those helicopters use a lot of carbon fiber composite. They wouldn't fly without it. And being that it has to fly, they are pretty weight weenie about parts, spare no expense, really. $50.00 titanium screws and what not. But the main thing the manufacturer can't do is kill people, though. The equivalent of one steerer tube failure would put an end to that. The FAA is not the most proactive agency, but one thing they do not like is headlines about aircraft falling out of the sky. That's bad for business. So design tends to be conservative. This is what amazes me about the current state of carbon fiber bicycle frame manufacturing. The disregard for customer safety and the complacency with respect to safety. Carbon fiber works in aviation because the design emphasis is on safety and reliability, then weight. Qualified technicians inspect the aircraft before every flight and at regular specified intervals, and damage tolerance is very low. Good ol' Bubba doesn't decide if a nick or scratch requires a repair, the structural repair manual does. Also, carbon fiber is not used exclusively. If wear and abrasion is expected, as in the leading edge of a main rotor blade, then metal, usually very thin titanium or stainless steel is bonded on top of the carbon fiber. So I would say that carbon fiber is an excellent material if designed intelligently and used intelligently, but it is not as forgiving as steel. Steel tolerates damage that carbon fiber doesn't. People are used to steel, but don't understand that carbon fiber requires more from them. Is that stone chip a problem? With steel it's not, but with carbon fiber it's different. It's an easy answer in aviation. Look it up in the structural repair manual. There you will read: does the damage exceed such a depth, such a width, such a length, is it located in a critical area, and so forth. Then you will know, yes its safe or no it needs a repair. Do carbon fiber bikes come with structural repair manuals? They should. In my mind, carbon fiber is best reserved for professional rides for whom weight is critical AND who have qualified mechanics inspecting the bikes every time they are ridden. I really doubt that individual users understand the maintenance requirements of carbon fiber, or are capable of and willing to meet them. Carbon fiber requires maintenance, and that is expensive and inconvenient. Even aluminum is a lot more rugged. On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
I hear that such breakages are common, *BUT!* How much of this is due to poor design, and how much due to the material? I suspect that, if such things were well designed for the material, they'd be plenty strong and -- I wonder? -- as light as aluminum? Again, I'd like to see a comparison of the materials as suitable for bikes, abstracting from stupid or otherwise inadequate design. Certainly durability would be a very important criterion to compare. On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 4:53 PM, Lungimsam wrote: > I don't know from carbon, but I don't trust it because of: > > 1. *The strict torque requirements.* Two of my Giant Defy's composite > seatposts longitudinally cracked with use over shorts periods of time - > like one a year or something. The first one may have been my fault, I don't > know, as I didn't know about torque specs at the start of my road biking, > but I am not a ham fisted mechanic. The* second seat post* came to me > under warranty and I used a torque wrench. As time passed I discovered > that this second one *still split*. I finally just got an aluminum one. I > don't even know if they split due to tightening or some other factor. > > With my metal bikes and components I tighten to feel, but don't over do > it. I usually snug in a smooth motion, and then give it one smooth > tightening movement, stopping short of overdoing it. Never jerky. I don't > tighten it 'til it smokes, either. > > > 2. Also, the myriad stories of busted carbon, and how a little knick turns > into an epic fail, and even time can lead to a catastrophic fail, *and > the fact that inspecting the bike can't always tell you when something is > failing* all lead me to look for an all metal bike for my next one. Giant > didn't have any all alu bikes at the time. So I looked around online for > all metal bikes and that's how I found Rivendell. > > I'm not saying anything is wrong with carbon. I just don't feel safe on > it. And sure, steel can fail, too. But I feel safer on metal than on > carbon. I like the lightness of carbon, though. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ** ** *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) *Carthusian motto *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Thanks Zed; interesting, and this was almost 20 years ago; doubtless CF technology has improved since. I was amused to see "1,200 grams!" for the lightest frames. Aren't the latest and greatest now well below 900 grams? Of course, such gram boasting is (i expect) the real problem, since it pimps "lightweightgofasterbelikethepros!!!" to sell new stuff. I expect that CF is pretty darn good for bikes if used properly. "I expect." On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Zed Martinez wrote: > Hmph. I could swear I saw something more recent, but all I can find in my > history is this quite dated (though still interesting) article from > Sheldon's site: > http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm > > And this white paper that doesn't do any comparisons but just talks about > a lot of the factors that make it hard to just compare all carbon fiber > equally (and along with that the different factors that can lead to CF > failure more, or lead to it less): > http://calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/technical-white-paper/ > > I'd like to see anything more recent myself. > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-5, Zed Martinez wrote: >> >> I'm trying to find the link, I saw the results of a lab study on this >> just recently, but can't find it yet. If I recall, good carbon fiber is >> strong. Really strong. It outlasted the steel by a lot in the lab test. >> Even Grant has found this before, in their impromptu fork sword fight the >> CF one actually bent one of the steel ones when impacted. (I did always >> find it a bit cheating that the way he got the CF one to fail was to score >> it.) The thing he took comfort in in the end is my favorite reason to >> advocate steel for a bicycle over CF, and that's failure mode. Used as >> intended and not abused, a carbon fiber frame might even outlast a steel >> one. It's just they don't tend to fare as well if they take the sort of >> usual knocks, falls, and collisions a bike tends to go through. Once >> there's been some damage, the failure mode tends to be sudden and >> catastrophic rather than slow and visible. A good chance to take as a >> performance-minded person for performance-minded uses, but at odds with >> that core Rivendell belief of making no quadriplegics. I'll keep looking >> for the link on the strength and durability of the materials. >> >> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: >>> >>> Has anyone with real cycling design bona fides done a dispassionate >>> analysis comparing the advantages and disadvantages of carbon fiber and >>> steel as materials for bicycle parts and frames? >>> >>> For example, local builder Dave Porter claimed, or used to claim (this >>> was 4-5 years ago) that he could build a steel bike as light as a carbon >>> fiber one using the latest steels. OTOH, don't they use CF for F1 racing >>> car cockpit tubs? >>> >>> Intelligently used (please note that qualification), would CF be both >>> lighter and stronger in a bike frame properly designed for that material, >>> than the best steel? Or just lighter? Or just stronger? Or neither? >>> >>> The discussion of CF *as such* and steel *as such* as frame materials >>> so often doesn't prescind from the stupid light designs used by marketers >>> to sell new bikes to the gullible. It would be refreshing to see an >>> intelligent comparison of the materials' real advantages. >>> >>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Surlyprof wrote: >>> *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly accepted constraints."* - Charles Eames I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers. Carbon fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any plastic material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be reducing or eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing processes. It continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) the public was led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel would reveal the flaws in carbon. >>> >>> -- >>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. >>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. >>> Other professional writing services. >>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/ >>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ >>> Patrick Moore >>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten >>> * >>> *** >>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a >>> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities >>> revolve. *Chuang Tzu >>> >>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the >>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto >>> >>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart >>> >>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) * >>> Aristotle >>> >>> >>> -- > You received this message because
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Nice, and with 10-year guarantee. 33s + fenders, please. $5,300 -- could be worse, but although I expect that CF is (in itself) an excellent material for some bicycle parts and for frames, I expect that, for my riding, the 52% premium over top of line steel isn't worth the savings in weight and (possible) improvement in strength. I do have to say that, IMO, in the "pretty" and the "cool" categories, steel wins hands down. ("Cool" since steel has all that "Coppi rode it and so did the ungainly, brutal, peasant-stock hardmen of steel back to 1903*" history.) *1st Tour. I know that it was used before 1903. Scott: do you own a Crumpton? On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Scott G. wrote: > Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm > tires. > I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike. > > Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike. > > Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ** ** *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) *Carthusian motto *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Photos, please! On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Bill M. wrote: > Calfee can provide such a bike as well. > > Double the price? Maybe, maybe not. I have owned a Rivendell Road and > still own a Calfee Tetra. A Calfee Tetra Pro frame with fork runs $3670 - > $3895, though options can push that higher. Certainly not double the price > of a custom Riv ($3500), not quite double the price of a Roadeo ($2200). > Both are hand built frames. The Riv is prettier, the Calfee is lighter. > Both handle well. The Calfee is, dare I say it, faster in a sprint or up a > hill. Neither one ever let me down. Either one could be repaired should > it be damaged, but I suspect fixing the steel bike would be more expensive > (the Calfee has no paint, so no repaint needed after mending). Different > horses for different courses. There's room for both in the world. > > Now I'll put on my nomex and fix a bowl of popcorn. > > Bill > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:23:36 PM UTC-8, Scott G. wrote: >> >> Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm >> tires. >> I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike. >> >> Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike. >> >> Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy. >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ** ** *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) *Carthusian motto *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Suu-*wt!* On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:03 PM, Daniel D. wrote: > just because...:p > > https://www.facebook.com/PlusSizeBMX/photos/a.97024771684.102024.94683306684/10153125537041685/?type=3&theater > >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ** ** *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) *Carthusian motto *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
But would you now ride that bike (with a new wheel of course) at speed? On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Patrick Moore wrote: > Suu-*wt!* > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:03 PM, Daniel D. wrote: > >> just because...:p >> >> https://www.facebook.com/PlusSizeBMX/photos/a.97024771684.102024.94683306684/10153125537041685/?type=3&theater >> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. > Other professional writing services. > http://www.resumespecialties.com/ > www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten > ** > ** > *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a > circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities > revolve. *Chuang Tzu > > *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the > world revolves.) *Carthusian motto > > *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart > > *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Robert Harrison Honolulu, HI rfharri...@gmail.com statrix.com Wu Name: Tha Eurythmic King of Nowhere -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
I'd probably take it in to a qualified person to judge, same as I'd do with a steel bike I rammed into my house. But then carbon isn't for me doesn't mean it's not right for someone else. On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:22:45 PM UTC-8, Statrixbob wrote: > > But would you now ride that bike (with a new wheel of course) at speed? > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Patrick Moore > wrote: > >> Suu-*wt!* >> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:03 PM, Daniel D. > > wrote: >> >>> just because...:p >>> >>> https://www.facebook.com/PlusSizeBMX/photos/a.97024771684.102024.94683306684/10153125537041685/?type=3&theater >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com . >>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. >> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. >> Other professional writing services. >> http://www.resumespecialties.com/ >> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ >> Patrick Moore >> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten >> * >> *** >> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a >> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities >> revolve. *Chuang Tzu >> >> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the >> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto >> >> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart >> >> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Robert Harrison > Honolulu, HI > rfhar...@gmail.com > statrix.com > Wu Name: Tha Eurythmic King of Nowhere > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:34:00 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote: > > Nice, and with 10-year guarantee. 33s + fenders, please. $5,300 -- could > be worse, but although I expect that CF is (in itself) an excellent > material for some bicycle parts and for frames, I expect that, for my > riding, the 52% premium over top of line steel isn't worth the savings in > weight and (possible) improvement in strength. > I think the problem is you're not comparing apples to apples. Yes, a Crumpton will cost $5300 for a frame. But he is considered one of the top carbon frame builders in the US and maybe the world. Yes, you can get a "premium" steel frame for less, maybe even 52% less. But, if you really want to compare a Crumpton, then you should compare it to what the top steel frame builders charge. Since there are 100s of steel frame builders in the US, one way to compare is to look at wait list. Richard Sachs and Sasha White/Vanilla have arguably the longest wait list for steel builders that has people waiting 5 to 6 YEARS?! If that makes them the "top" steel frame builders, then the price of a custom Sachs or Vanilla is around $5000 or about the same as a Crumpton. Further, Brent Steelman is asking $4850 for a custom lug frame and others like Bruce Gordon and Mark DiNucci are in the $4000+ range. In contrast, a custom Riv is "only" $3500 and I last I heard, their wait list is about two years?! Of course, you can find quality steel builders for less, i.e., Della Santa or Paul Sadoff/Rock Lobster, but if you want to compare apples to apples, you look at the builders with the longest wait list first. Or at least, that is one criteria. Good Luck! > > I do have to say that, IMO, in the "pretty" and the "cool" categories, > steel wins hands down. ("Cool" since steel has all that "Coppi rode it and > so did the ungainly, brutal, peasant-stock hardmen of steel back to 1903*" > history.) > > *1st Tour. I know that it was used before 1903. > > Scott: do you own a Crumpton? > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Scott G. > > wrote: > >> Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm >> tires. >> I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike. >> >> Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike. >> >> Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. > Other professional writing services. > http://www.resumespecialties.com/ > www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten > ** > ** > *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a > circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities > revolve. *Chuang Tzu > > *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the > world revolves.) *Carthusian motto > > *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart > > *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
It's not a problem at all! If I had $5,300 to put on a frame, I'd seriously research the pros and cons of carbon fiber. I am not convinced that CF is better than steel for bike frames, but I am starting to believe that, at its best, it may well be so. That's why I'd like to see a rigorous, dispassionate comparison. But for my own purposes and budget, even if CF should be better than steel when optimally used, it wouldn't be worth the premium at current custom CF prices. (Once again, I have little interest in current mass market CF offerings.) Now if someone started making a $3K custom frameset in CF that rode and lasted like a Rivendell, I'd seriously consider it. Seriously! I need one with 120 OL rear spacing for my new AM hub. On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Brewster Fong wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:34:00 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> Nice, and with 10-year guarantee. 33s + fenders, please. $5,300 -- could >> be worse, but although I expect that CF is (in itself) an excellent >> material for some bicycle parts and for frames, I expect that, for my >> riding, the 52% premium over top of line steel isn't worth the savings in >> weight and (possible) improvement in strength. >> > > I think the problem is you're not comparing apples to apples. > Yes, a Crumpton will cost $5300 for a frame. But he is considered one of > the top carbon frame builders in the US and maybe the world. Yes, you can > get a "premium" steel frame for less, maybe even 52% less. But, if you > really want to compare a Crumpton, then you should compare it to what the > top steel frame builders charge. > > Since there are 100s of steel frame builders in the US, one way to compare > is to look at wait list. Richard Sachs and Sasha White/Vanilla have > arguably the longest wait list for steel builders that has people waiting 5 > to 6 YEARS?! If that makes them the "top" steel frame builders, then the > price of a custom Sachs or Vanilla is around $5000 or about the same as a > Crumpton. > > Further, Brent Steelman is asking $4850 for a custom lug frame and others > like Bruce Gordon and Mark DiNucci are in the $4000+ range. In contrast, a > custom Riv is "only" $3500 and I last I heard, their wait list is about two > years?! > > Of course, you can find quality steel builders for less, i.e., Della Santa > or Paul Sadoff/Rock Lobster, but if you want to compare apples to apples, > you look at the builders with the longest wait list first. Or at least, > that is one criteria. > > Good Luck! > >> >> I do have to say that, IMO, in the "pretty" and the "cool" categories, >> steel wins hands down. ("Cool" since steel has all that "Coppi rode it and >> so did the ungainly, brutal, peasant-stock hardmen of steel back to 1903*" >> history.) >> >> *1st Tour. I know that it was used before 1903. >> >> Scott: do you own a Crumpton? >> >> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Scott G. wrote: >> >>> Call Nick Crumpton, say you want a lifetime road bike that will fit 33mm >>> tires. >>> I think you'll be very pleased with your carbon bike. >>> >>> Downside of carbon is that costs near double a same quality steel bike. >>> >>> Steel vs. Carbon, is the cycling nutters version of the Arian heresy. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. >> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. >> Other professional writing services. >> http://www.resumespecialties.com/ >> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ >> Patrick Moore >> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten >> * >> *** >> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a >> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities >> revolve. *Chuang Tzu >> >> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the >> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto >> >> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart >> >> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
The last update about customs from Riv is that there's not much of a wait. They haven't promoted them in years, and I suspect a lot of people think custom Rivendells aren't a thing anymore. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
There isn't much of a wait and they are still available. I've been told my frame could be ready by this spring. I'm not too fussed if it's later On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 12:29:38 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote: > > The last update about customs from Riv is that there's not much of a wait. > They haven't promoted them in years, and I suspect a lot of people think > custom Rivendells aren't a thing anymore. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:34:00 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: > > Scott: do you own a Crumpton? > No, just seen them. I own a Chris Kvale, next bike will be by Dave Wages. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Scott, if you do decide to have Dave do the work for you, you can't go wrong, IMHO. My Ellis SS: http://www.cyclofiend.com/ssg/2010/ssg298-paulgermain0510.htm Paul Germain On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 7:14:04 PM UTC-5, Scott G. wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 7:34:00 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: > >> >> Scott: do you own a ? >> > > No, just seen them. > > I own a Chris Kvale, next bike will be by Dave Wages. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?
Thanks for this perspective. It seems that one great disadvantage of CF is that it suffers easily from wear, or at least from scratches; overcoming this and building for long term durability for everyday use and inexpert maintenance by the ill trained masses, I wonder how much of a weight advantage would be left. Of course, you may be able to tune the ride better than you can with steel --? I don't know. Perhaps Wayne is right and CF is best left for special use high maintenance short life sorts of applications? CF Pros for mass market bicycle use: Weight and Strength? Weight but not strength/strength but not weight? Ride tuneability Shape tuneability Steel ditto: Lasts years Easily adaptable for size and ride qualities Easy to maintain Inexpensive (relatively) Easy to repair and modify I hope others will add to these lists -- after thinking about their entries! On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Wayne Naha wrote: > I used to work for a well known helicopter manufacturer. I worked as a > mechanic, building helicopters. I can tell you, those helicopters use a > lot of carbon fiber composite. They wouldn't fly without it. And being > that it has to fly, they are pretty weight weenie about parts, spare no > expense, really. $50.00 titanium screws and what not. But the main thing > the manufacturer can't do is kill people, though. The equivalent of one > steerer tube failure would put an end to that. The FAA is not the most > proactive agency, but one thing they do not like is headlines about > aircraft falling out of the sky. That's bad for business. So design tends > to be conservative. This is what amazes me about the current state of > carbon fiber bicycle frame manufacturing. The disregard for customer > safety and the complacency with respect to safety. Carbon fiber works in > aviation because the design emphasis is on safety and reliability, then > weight. Qualified technicians inspect the aircraft before every flight and > at regular specified intervals, and damage tolerance is very low. Good ol' > Bubba doesn't decide if a nick or scratch requires a repair, the structural > repair manual does. Also, carbon fiber is not used exclusively. If wear > and abrasion is expected, as in the leading edge of a main rotor blade, > then metal, usually very thin titanium or stainless steel is bonded on top > of the carbon fiber. So I would say that carbon fiber is an excellent > material if designed intelligently and used intelligently, but it is not as > forgiving as steel. Steel tolerates damage that carbon fiber doesn't. > People are used to steel, but don't understand that carbon fiber requires > more from them. Is that stone chip a problem? With steel it's not, but > with carbon fiber it's different. It's an easy answer in aviation. Look > it up in the structural repair manual. There you will read: does the > damage exceed such a depth, such a width, such a length, is it located in a > critical area, and so forth. Then you will know, yes its safe or no it > needs a repair. Do carbon fiber bikes come with structural repair > manuals? They should. In my mind, carbon fiber is best reserved for > professional rides for whom weight is critical AND who have qualified > mechanics inspecting the bikes every time they are ridden. I really doubt > that individual users understand the maintenance requirements of carbon > fiber, or are capable of and willing to meet them. Carbon fiber requires > maintenance, and that is expensive and inconvenient. Even aluminum is a > lot more rugged. > > On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ** ** *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) *Carthusian motto *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunc