[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
Thanks for that info! Never occurred to me it could be the same distance. Checked with the collected wisdom of Sheldon and sure enough! I'll try it out and see what happens as it's a nice set of french made Roval wheels. Very aero in the 80's witch I guess is why Specialized had to go and buy the rights for the name. On 17 Dec, 04:56, Bill M. bmenn...@comcast.net wrote: Are you thinking of their early Synchro shifters? That was pretty much unuseable IIRC. I've only ever owned one set of Ergo levers, and they shift very well. They're currently back on my Riv Road Std, which is as close as I have to a 'racing' bike. Now they are paired with an 8 speed Shimano cassette and a Shift Mate, but they were fine with the 7 speed freewheels I was running ten years ago. Google found some comments from Sheldon Brown on Campy Synchro: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Bicycle-Repair-1824/2008/1/Campy-Shimano-c... Bill On Dec 16, 4:44 pm, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 16:34 -0800, Bill M. wrote: Campy's 8 speed stuff used the same spacing as 7 speed, it was only Shimano's that was different. I used 8 speed Ergo with 7 speed Sachs freewheels. It worked fine with no tinkering needed. I believe that any 7 speed should work, FW or cassette. All you should have to do is adjust the limit stops on the derailleur to keep from throwing the chain to the inside. Campagnolo's indexing used to be pure crap; then it changed and became good. When was that change?- Dölj citerad text - - Visa citerad text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
Sorry, but with all you experts assembled could I just ask what to do with these early aero wheels given to me? They are virtualy new and have tubular rims with 7sp (?) freewheel hubs. I'd like to fit them to a 90's italian roadbike that have 8sp Campa Ergopower shifters. Could I find or build a freewheel that would work with those shifters? Any thoughts on what good value tubulars to choose for centuries/long distance events? Thanks, and a wheely Merry Christmas to you all! On 5 Dec, 17:31, palin...@his.com wrote: Quoting PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com: On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:33 AM, tallsteelbikes ash...@gmail.com wrote: On Dec 3, 4:36 pm, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: But 8 sp was indeed slightly closer spaced than 7 -- which is why, presumably, they went with 130 instead of 126 OL spacing. They went with 130 because the hub required more spacing and more dish. The 8 speed hub is bigger to accomodate the extra cog. The 9 speed spacing got tighter but still used the same hub as an 8 speed. That is what I was fuzzily thinking but not articulating. I've not tried this, but perhaps you can drop off a cog from a 10 sp cassette and install the remaining 9 on a 7 (if you follow me). The only hindrance would be some sort of theoretical difference in the spoke end of the freehub body that prevents the spider from fitting over the spoke end flange (which is how they cram 10 into the space of 8 without reducing spacing any further than it was for 9...) Obviously you wouldn't want to set up a new bike that employed such tricks, and if you had a steel or titanium frame that was spaced to 126 you could get it spread to 130. So we're talking about an old aluminum or carbon fiber frame. Given that, why not just run them with 7 speeds, as they were originally built?- Dölj citerad text - - Visa citerad text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Dec 3, 2:56 pm, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: According to the table on Sheldon's sitehttp://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html both sprocket thickness and spacer thickness changed between Shimano Hyperglide 7 and Shimano 8. The 7spd is 1.85mm sprocket thickness, 3.15mm spacer thickness, and the 8 is 1.8mm sprocket thickness and 3.0mm spacer thickness. Center to center spacing went from 5.0mm for 7 spd Hyperglide to 4.8mm for 8spd. The cag spacing does not matter that much. What matters is the hub type. The 6/7 speed hub requires less dish that an 8 speed hub because Shimano increased the hub size to accomodate more speeds when they went from 7 to 8 speeds. 7 and 8 speeds are very close. You can even use the same shifters in most cases. Here is a neat trick if you want more speeds with minimum dish: use a 7 speed freehub with 9 speed cogs, but leave one of the cogs out of the mix. This give you the best of both worlds: more speeds, good economy, stronger wheels Chris tallsteelbikes.googlepages.com On Dec 3, 2:56 pm, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-12-03 at 11:25 -0800, tallsteelbikes wrote: The cog spacing got tighter when they went from 6 to 7 not from 7 to 8 speed. According to the table on Sheldon's sitehttp://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html both sprocket thickness and spacer thickness changed between Shimano Hyperglide 7 and Shimano 8. The 7spd is 1.85mm sprocket thickness, 3.15mm spacer thickness, and the 8 is 1.8mm sprocket thickness and 3.0mm spacer thickness. Center to center spacing went from 5.0mm for 7 spd Hyperglide to 4.8mm for 8spd. So if you want a stronger wheel with less dish go with 7 speeds or less on a 7 speed freehub cassette system or a 5/6/7 speed freewheel system. Or, as others have suggested, you can use an asymmetric rim. Who really needs or wants 8/9/10 speeds For some applications the closer spacing of gears (not sprockets) gives you some advantages. To me those advantages primarily apply to lightly loaded bikes. When I pack on some cargo, I find I lose momentum quickly enough that the 1-tooth gear changes that seem so nice and handy on an unloaded bike become insignificant piddling hardly worth shifting for. and weaker wheels with more cost and maintenance anyway? Not a given, as far as I'm concerned. Maintenance is no different; chain and sprocket life seem to be the same. Only reason is if you are stuck on STI or just need the latest gadgets to keep up with the Jones'. And we haven't even mentioned the 2009 Campagnolo Super Record group -- the one they should have called the Spinal Tap Gruppo (because it goes to 11). I think bikesnobnyc's take on that fully represents my position. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Dec 3, 4:36 pm, PATRICK MOORE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But 8 sp was indeed slightly closer spaced than 7 -- which is why, presumably, they went with 130 instead of 126 OL spacing. They went with 130 because the hub required more spacing and more dish. The 8 speed hub is bigger to accomodate the extra cog. The 9 speed spacing got tighter but still used the same hub as a 7 speed. Bottom line: use a 7 speed hub for minumum dish. 8/9 speed hubs with always increase dishing over 7 speed hubs. If you want more speeds, put 9 speed cogs on a 7 speed freehub and leave one cog off for a hybrid 8speed system on a 7 speed hub... -Chris tallsteelbikes.googlepages.com On Dec 3, 4:36 pm, PATRICK MOORE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to toss a (rusty) wrench into Steve's comments (because he's recently been mean to me, offlist) I must add that one really doesn't need multiple cogs at all; or if you have a second (you wimp, you) just screw it onto the other side of the hub like the rest of us. No dish, no mess, no worries. But 8 sp was indeed slightly closer spaced than 7 -- which is why, presumably, they went with 130 instead of 126 OL spacing. On 12/3/08, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-12-03 at 11:25 -0800, tallsteelbikes wrote: The cog spacing got tighter when they went from 6 to 7 not from 7 to 8 speed. According to the table on Sheldon's site http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html both sprocket thickness and spacer thickness changed between Shimano Hyperglide 7 and Shimano 8. The 7spd is 1.85mm sprocket thickness, 3.15mm spacer thickness, and the 8 is 1.8mm sprocket thickness and 3.0mm spacer thickness. Center to center spacing went from 5.0mm for 7 spd Hyperglide to 4.8mm for 8spd. So if you want a stronger wheel with less dish go with 7 speeds or less on a 7 speed freehub cassette system or a 5/6/7 speed freewheel system. Or, as others have suggested, you can use an asymmetric rim. Who really needs or wants 8/9/10 speeds For some applications the closer spacing of gears (not sprockets) gives you some advantages. To me those advantages primarily apply to lightly loaded bikes. When I pack on some cargo, I find I lose momentum quickly enough that the 1-tooth gear changes that seem so nice and handy on an unloaded bike become insignificant piddling hardly worth shifting for. and weaker wheels with more cost and maintenance anyway? Not a given, as far as I'm concerned. Maintenance is no different; chain and sprocket life seem to be the same. Only reason is if you are stuck on STI or just need the latest gadgets to keep up with the Jones'. And we haven't even mentioned the 2009 Campagnolo Super Record group -- the one they should have called the Spinal Tap Gruppo (because it goes to 11). I think bikesnobnyc's take on that fully represents my position. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
They went with 130 because the hub required more spacing and more dish. The 8 speed hub is bigger to accomodate the extra cog. The 9 speed spacing got tighter but still used the same hub as a 7 speed. Correction: that should have said 8: The 9 speed spacing got tighter but still used the same hub as a 8 speed. Sorry. -chris On Dec 4, 10:25 am, tallsteelbikes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 3, 4:36 pm, PATRICK MOORE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But 8 sp was indeed slightly closer spaced than 7 -- which is why, presumably, they went with 130 instead of 126 OL spacing. They went with 130 because the hub required more spacing and more dish. The 8 speed hub is bigger to accomodate the extra cog. The 9 speed spacing got tighter but still used the same hub as a 7 speed. Bottom line: use a 7 speed hub for minumum dish. 8/9 speed hubs with always increase dishing over 7 speed hubs. If you want more speeds, put 9 speed cogs on a 7 speed freehub and leave one cog off for a hybrid 8speed system on a 7 speed hub... -Chris tallsteelbikes.googlepages.com On Dec 3, 4:36 pm, PATRICK MOORE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to toss a (rusty) wrench into Steve's comments (because he's recently been mean to me, offlist) I must add that one really doesn't need multiple cogs at all; or if you have a second (you wimp, you) just screw it onto the other side of the hub like the rest of us. No dish, no mess, no worries. But 8 sp was indeed slightly closer spaced than 7 -- which is why, presumably, they went with 130 instead of 126 OL spacing. On 12/3/08, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-12-03 at 11:25 -0800, tallsteelbikes wrote: The cog spacing got tighter when they went from 6 to 7 not from 7 to 8 speed. According to the table on Sheldon's site http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html both sprocket thickness and spacer thickness changed between Shimano Hyperglide 7 and Shimano 8. The 7spd is 1.85mm sprocket thickness, 3.15mm spacer thickness, and the 8 is 1.8mm sprocket thickness and 3.0mm spacer thickness. Center to center spacing went from 5.0mm for 7 spd Hyperglide to 4.8mm for 8spd. So if you want a stronger wheel with less dish go with 7 speeds or less on a 7 speed freehub cassette system or a 5/6/7 speed freewheel system. Or, as others have suggested, you can use an asymmetric rim. Who really needs or wants 8/9/10 speeds For some applications the closer spacing of gears (not sprockets) gives you some advantages. To me those advantages primarily apply to lightly loaded bikes. When I pack on some cargo, I find I lose momentum quickly enough that the 1-tooth gear changes that seem so nice and handy on an unloaded bike become insignificant piddling hardly worth shifting for. and weaker wheels with more cost and maintenance anyway? Not a given, as far as I'm concerned. Maintenance is no different; chain and sprocket life seem to be the same. Only reason is if you are stuck on STI or just need the latest gadgets to keep up with the Jones'. And we haven't even mentioned the 2009 Campagnolo Super Record group -- the one they should have called the Spinal Tap Gruppo (because it goes to 11). I think bikesnobnyc's take on that fully represents my position. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Dec 3, 4:36 pm, PATRICK MOORE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But 8 sp was indeed slightly closer spaced than 7 -- which is why, presumably, they went with 130 instead of 126 OL spacing. They went with 130 because the hub required more spacing and more dish. The 8 speed hub is bigger to accomodate the extra cog. The 9 speed spacing got tighter but still used the same hub as an 8 speed. Bottom line: use a 7 speed hub for minumum dish. 8/9 speed hubs with always increase dishing over 7 speed hubs. If you want more speeds, put 9 speed cogs on a 7 speed freehub and leave one cog off for a hybrid 8speed system on a 7 speed hub... -Chris tallsteelbikes.googlepages.com On Dec 3, 4:36 pm, PATRICK MOORE [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to toss a (rusty) wrench into Steve's comments (because he's recently been mean to me, offlist) I must add that one really doesn't need multiple cogs at all; or if you have a second (you wimp, you) just screw it onto the other side of the hub like the rest of us. No dish, no mess, no worries. But 8 sp was indeed slightly closer spaced than 7 -- which is why, presumably, they went with 130 instead of 126 OL spacing. On 12/3/08, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2008-12-03 at 11:25 -0800, tallsteelbikes wrote: The cog spacing got tighter when they went from 6 to 7 not from 7 to 8 speed. According to the table on Sheldon's site http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html both sprocket thickness and spacer thickness changed between Shimano Hyperglide 7 and Shimano 8. The 7spd is 1.85mm sprocket thickness, 3.15mm spacer thickness, and the 8 is 1.8mm sprocket thickness and 3.0mm spacer thickness. Center to center spacing went from 5.0mm for 7 spd Hyperglide to 4.8mm for 8spd. So if you want a stronger wheel with less dish go with 7 speeds or less on a 7 speed freehub cassette system or a 5/6/7 speed freewheel system. Or, as others have suggested, you can use an asymmetric rim. Who really needs or wants 8/9/10 speeds For some applications the closer spacing of gears (not sprockets) gives you some advantages. To me those advantages primarily apply to lightly loaded bikes. When I pack on some cargo, I find I lose momentum quickly enough that the 1-tooth gear changes that seem so nice and handy on an unloaded bike become insignificant piddling hardly worth shifting for. and weaker wheels with more cost and maintenance anyway? Not a given, as far as I'm concerned. Maintenance is no different; chain and sprocket life seem to be the same. Only reason is if you are stuck on STI or just need the latest gadgets to keep up with the Jones'. And we haven't even mentioned the 2009 Campagnolo Super Record group -- the one they should have called the Spinal Tap Gruppo (because it goes to 11). I think bikesnobnyc's take on that fully represents my position. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
I just repacked four Shimano freehubs last week. There is no need to pull the freehub. Its a little bit of a reach but quite doable. A few years ago, I bought a table the the Denver Veloswap and sold all my tubulars and associated wheels, Look-type racing pedals and shoes (just SPD and platform now), freewheels, and freewheel hubs. I am free! Cassettes are a dramatic improvement. A broken Campy record freewheel- hub axle broke a dropout on my older road bike. I spent $$$ getting that dropout replaced and the frame repainted. All the other nice cassette improvements (ease of removal, large inventory, etc) pale in significance to not worrying about that issue. On Dec 2, 6:07 pm, MichaelH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In 30 years of riding and overhauling bikes I have never had to use a six foot bar to remove a freewheel and I have never stripped one out, or the hub it was attached to. Seven spd 13 -28 freewheels offer regularly spaced gears and when mated to a 50x40x28 or 26 offer a very wide range of useable gears. Freewheels with a 12 small cog are most often racing sets 12-24 or less., but a 9 speed cassette, 12x 27, can be mated with smaller rings to provide about the same high gear and a decent low gear, 34x 27 for most road riding situations. There is no need to widen the cog set out to 32 or 34, with the resulting wide gear jumps. It is better to go to smaller rings, or a triple crank if you want to get down below 30 gear inches. No the cranks don't know whether your using a freewheel or a cassette, but your legs know when the gears are spaced too far apart or have too small a range. As for servicing, it is more work to overhaul a cassette hub than a freewheel. The cassette requires disassembling all of the cogs, then pulling the freehub off to get to the bearings. Quite doable for sure, but still a longer process than simply removing a freewheel. Michael On Dec 1, 7:14 pm, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 15:17 -0800, MichaelH wrote: From a technical pov - durability, shifting performance etc - there's not much difference. I've logged tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of miles on each without much problem with either. I like the convenience of 7 spd hubs, available from IRD, with a triple crank; but with a double the Shimano 12 - 27 casette allows for a smaller outside ring, 48 or 46, and then an easier shift to a 34 or 32 on the inside. Freewheels are still cheaper and easier to service. 7 speed IRD freewheels are more expensive than 7 speed Shimano cassettes. It's not much trouble removing and replacing a cassette: I've never heard of anybody having to use a six foot cheater bar to remove a cassette lockring, and I can't imagine ever stripping out the removal slot on a cassette lockring. I doubt there are many old timers who haven't stripped a freewheel when trying to get it off, and I don't think there are many tandem owners with freewheels who haven't had trouble unscrewing them. As for the advantages of compact cranks: cranks don't care whether the sprockets in back are on a freewheel or a cassette.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
Hi, I haven't posted much since I'm currently Between Rivendells but this thread interests me. I didn't start cycling seriously enough to get to the point where I really tore into bikes until 1999 or so. So while I'm sure I rode some freewheels I never had to deal with maintenance. Two weeks I won an ebay auction and I'm now the proud owner of a 1986 Specialized Allez. It's a nice racy lugged steel bike. It's equipped with Shimano an R600 6-speed group. Low gear is 42/23 and that's not gonna work for 45 yr old me (Maybe I should have bought the bike when it came out in 1986 and I was 23...). So I have from Rivendell a new IRD freewheel, a new chain, and some 130bcd 38/50 chain rings on order. I want to try downtube shifting for awhile, but if I don't like it I could go bar end shifting, but I must admit I really like STI and have some barely used Shimano Sora brifters in my garage stash. If I go to cassette wheels will I need the frame respaced to 130mm or is 126mm close enough? If you know of a good shop that works on older bikes in Orange County, CA or the Long Beach area let me know. The 2 shops closest to me pretty much deal only with the latest and greatest stuff. Thanks, Chris Roy Laguna Hills, CA On Dec 1, 12:05 pm, Seth Vidal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If this has been discussed previously, I'll be happy to be referred to the archives. what's the functional differences between cassettes and freewheels? I'm looking at wheels on riv's site and I can't figure out what I'd be gaining or losing with one or the other. thanks, -sv --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
The cog spacing got tighter when they went from 6 to 7 not from 7 to 8 speed. That is why you need a spacer with the 7 speed cassette on the 8 speed hub. When they went from 8 to 9 they made the cog spacing even tighter. That is why 8 and 9 speed use the same hub body. So if you want a stronger wheel with less dish go with 7 speeds or less on a 7 speed freehub cassette system or a 5/6/7 speed freewheel system. Who really needs or wants 8/9/10 speeds and weaker wheels with more cost and maintenance anyway? Only reason is if you are stuck on STI or just need the latest gadgets to keep up with the Jones'. Cheers, Chris tallsteelbikes.googlepages.com On Dec 2, 8:48 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Garth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Do I regret going with freewheels? Sometimes I was worried, like when they were becoming very scarce. But, it was just fear and there are thousands of people like me that have no desire or need for 8,9 or 10 speed sprockets. I also think about if I would have gone with an 8 speed cassette at the time I made my decision, I would be no better off. Look at the selection of 8 speed ones now. they are becoming less available, and the ones that are available are lower end ones. Then, look at the gear selections . fewer and fewer choices. I have no use for 11 or 12 tooth sprockets so try to find any cassette without one of those. Sure, Harris Cycles makes some custom ones, but they can be over a hundred dollars for the better ones. So, when I chose my wheels. it was a 50/50 deal on what to do. It's no different today as I have no desire for the 9 and 10 speed spockets. If I need some more wheels I'd still likely get another 135mm 7speed Phil hub. Leaving custom cassettes aside for the moment, pretty much what they did when they went from 7 to 8 was space the sprockets closer together and add an 11 or 12 tooth sprocket. Many of the standard 7s had 13T as the smallest sprocket, and all but one of the standard 8s had either an 11 or a 12T as the smallest. This can easily produce a situation where less (i.e., fewer sprockets) is clearly more. With a 7spd cassette mounted on a 135mm cassette hub (7spd cassettes now seem to come with the spacer you need to put behind the cassette to make this work) I find I'm able to use all 7 sprockets on the big ring without suffering chain line problems. Add an outer 11 or 12 to the mix, and now you can't get to the innermost big sprocket without running into chain line issues; in return for this, you get a high gear that's usually too high to use. Bottom line: add 1, lose the use of 2! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
Sheldon has a chart showing the various cassette cog spacer thicknesses: http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html#transplant Notice how the variations appear quite small but when you stack up enough of them, it can make a difference. There's also a good discussion of freehub body transplants, etc. Not sure if there's a similar chart for freewheels but Harris is the best source I know of for research. dougP -Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tallsteelbikes Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:26 AM To: RBW Owners Bunch Subject: [RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels The cog spacing got tighter when they went from 6 to 7 not from 7 to 8 speed. That is why you need a spacer with the 7 speed cassette on the 8 speed hub. When they went from 8 to 9 they made the cog spacing even tighter. That is why 8 and 9 speed use the same hub body. So if you want a stronger wheel with less dish go with 7 speeds or less on a 7 speed freehub cassette system or a 5/6/7 speed freewheel system. Who really needs or wants 8/9/10 speeds and weaker wheels with more cost and maintenance anyway? Only reason is if you are stuck on STI or just need the latest gadgets to keep up with the Jones'. Cheers, Chris tallsteelbikes.googlepages.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Wed, 2008-12-03 at 11:25 -0800, tallsteelbikes wrote: The cog spacing got tighter when they went from 6 to 7 not from 7 to 8 speed. According to the table on Sheldon's site http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html both sprocket thickness and spacer thickness changed between Shimano Hyperglide 7 and Shimano 8. The 7spd is 1.85mm sprocket thickness, 3.15mm spacer thickness, and the 8 is 1.8mm sprocket thickness and 3.0mm spacer thickness. Center to center spacing went from 5.0mm for 7 spd Hyperglide to 4.8mm for 8spd. So if you want a stronger wheel with less dish go with 7 speeds or less on a 7 speed freehub cassette system or a 5/6/7 speed freewheel system. Or, as others have suggested, you can use an asymmetric rim. Who really needs or wants 8/9/10 speeds For some applications the closer spacing of gears (not sprockets) gives you some advantages. To me those advantages primarily apply to lightly loaded bikes. When I pack on some cargo, I find I lose momentum quickly enough that the 1-tooth gear changes that seem so nice and handy on an unloaded bike become insignificant piddling hardly worth shifting for. and weaker wheels with more cost and maintenance anyway? Not a given, as far as I'm concerned. Maintenance is no different; chain and sprocket life seem to be the same. Only reason is if you are stuck on STI or just need the latest gadgets to keep up with the Jones'. And we haven't even mentioned the 2009 Campagnolo Super Record group -- the one they should have called the Spinal Tap Gruppo (because it goes to 11). I think bikesnobnyc's take on that fully represents my position. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
You can also use a high strength chrome moly axle for less money than a Ti one. I did this on a campy hub bike I own and so far no problemo. I weigh 255 lbs. but I ride it like I'm riding a delicate flower and only on sunny days on clean asphalt I'd get the Phil freewheel hub. You can always use it later on a Quickbeam with a single speed freewheel if you can't get multi- speed freewheels anymore. I seriously doubt however that you'll run out. For the price of the freewheels from Riv you could just buy three of four and ride em till hell freezes over or until you rebuild the wheel several times. I don't think it really matters much they are just bike parts. I'll ride any old bike if I have no choice. I own both systems and never notice any difference but I like the idea of a symmetrical wheel and less cogs with heavier chains. On Dec 2, 11:45 am, Bill Rhea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm 6'3, 200lbs and have broken axles twice on Campy Nuovo Record hubs. I had a Phil Wood freewheel hub many years ago, which was pretty much indestructible (until a thief separated me from that old Bontrager mountain bike - sniff). I've never had any issues with cassette hub axles. However, this brings me to my AHH I didn't have a 135mm spaced, 700c rear wheel to put on the AHH and did not have the coin to just go out and buy one, so I resurrected an old but true pair of Specialized sealed hubs (maybe made by Suzue back in the early 80's?) laced to Mavic MA 40's to run on this bike. Needing to respace the hub from 126 to 135, I was turned away from 3 shops until, lo and behold, I found a NOS titanium axle of the exact length to fit the bill that had been sitting in a drawer in Menlo Velo since, well, the 80's. So far the wheels feel strong and silky smooth, but I am a bit worried that I may break that axle at an inconvenient moment (like the upcoming Moss Beach Randonnee). What do you guys think? Place your bets on when / if that axle will break Meanwhile, should I save my pennies for a decent cassette hub, or go Phil Wood / freewheel? -br my first post to the RBW group! On Dec 1, 12:17 pm, Peter Flint [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No doubt there's plenty in the archives on this subject, but one quick difference in my opinion is the greater strength of the cassette/ freehub system. I'm a big guy, 6'2 210lbs. I've broken one axle on a freewheel and seen several others bent by people of similar size. Never had any trouble on freehub bikes. Which is not to say I don't ride freewheels - I have a couple frames with freewheels on them, but I do try to ride a bit more gently on them. Also it's a bit easier to customize your gearing on the cassette vs. the freewheel. But this depends on your needs of course. Peter NYC On Dec 1, 3:05 pm, Seth Vidal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If this has been discussed previously, I'll be happy to be referred to the archives. what's the functional differences between cassettes and freewheels? I'm looking at wheels on riv's site and I can't figure out what I'd be gaining or losing with one or the other. thanks, -sv- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
We're not really in disagreement. I agree that there are bargains to be had with used freewheels, and what I said about limited gearing choices is supported by the examples you cite. Whether those limitations are significant or not is up to you. As you say, less-than-optimum is often perfectly fine for certain kinds of riding, perhaps less so for other kinds. Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Dec 1, 2:53 pm, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Piling on here, for a moment: Even if you discount concerns regarding future availability of freewheels, the current range of available gearing in 7 spd freewheels is limited compared to the range available with cassettes. My personal favorites, the 13-30, 13-34 and the 14-32 have no freewheel counterparts. That partly depends on what numbers you like in between. Some freewheels won't give you certain combinations, it's true, but other less-than-optimum combinations are perfectly fine for city riding. My two regular bikes both use freewheel hubs. Okay, Phil Wood freewheel hubs. With hubs that durable, why not stick with freewheels? And if they still have life left in them, why not go with slightly used ones, especially if you run your bikes in friction? Here's a helpful tip: Used-but-decent freewheels are popping up all over ebay and craigslist and many can be had for less than ten bucks. Combined with a new KMC Z-50 chain and run in pure friction I've never, ever had a problem with them. No skipping, no chain-dropping, nothing'. Admittedly, I can usually find seemingly dead' freewheels in the metal recycling that a co-worker put there because they were rusty or too filthy to spend time cleaning or whatever. In far too many cases, those 5- and 6-speed freewheels -- mostly older Suntour friction -- came back beautifully with some elbow grease and solvent on my part. They had lots of life left in them, and shouldn't have been tossed into the recycling bin just yet. The 5-speed 14-32 on my All-Rounder and the 6-speed 14-30 on my LongLow/city bike were both resurrected from our shop's metal recycling bin. I have a box of perhaps seven or eight more of these, all scavenged from various shops' recycling bins (I get around), scrubbed clean and re-lubed with my trusty freewheel lubing tool (I had fun explaining to a 24-year-old dealer rep the other day what the tool was and what it was for. He grew up riding full-suspension ATB's with cassettes. Last week it was a lesson on Helicomatic hubs; whoo- whee!). After cleaning and lubing, each freewheel is wrapped carefully and stored away. I expect I have enough to get me through the next seven to ten years at the rate I ride. Call me a cheapskate. It's okay. I probably am. (Meanwhile, I have asked my co-workers to please show me their dead freewheels before chucking them into the recycling. The last one I fished out was -- get this! -- a Shimano 600, 6-speed 14-32 with some rust on it. I scrubbed off most of the rust, cleaned out the gunk from the bearings, and re-lubed it. Clearly labelled used: cleaned re- lubed, it sold last week for 25 bucks to a collector. So there's still lots of love out there for freewheels. IMHO, IRD and SunRace are very smart to keep on making them.) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
Quoting Garth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Do I regret going with freewheels? Sometimes I was worried, like when they were becoming very scarce. But, it was just fear and there are thousands of people like me that have no desire or need for 8,9 or 10 speed sprockets. I also think about if I would have gone with an 8 speed cassette at the time I made my decision, I would be no better off. Look at the selection of 8 speed ones now. they are becoming less available, and the ones that are available are lower end ones. Then, look at the gear selections . fewer and fewer choices. I have no use for 11 or 12 tooth sprockets so try to find any cassette without one of those. Sure, Harris Cycles makes some custom ones, but they can be over a hundred dollars for the better ones. So, when I chose my wheels. it was a 50/50 deal on what to do. It's no different today as I have no desire for the 9 and 10 speed spockets. If I need some more wheels I'd still likely get another 135mm 7speed Phil hub. Leaving custom cassettes aside for the moment, pretty much what they did when they went from 7 to 8 was space the sprockets closer together and add an 11 or 12 tooth sprocket. Many of the standard 7s had 13T as the smallest sprocket, and all but one of the standard 8s had either an 11 or a 12T as the smallest. This can easily produce a situation where less (i.e., fewer sprockets) is clearly more. With a 7spd cassette mounted on a 135mm cassette hub (7spd cassettes now seem to come with the spacer you need to put behind the cassette to make this work) I find I'm able to use all 7 sprockets on the big ring without suffering chain line problems. Add an outer 11 or 12 to the mix, and now you can't get to the innermost big sprocket without running into chain line issues; in return for this, you get a high gear that's usually too high to use. Bottom line: add 1, lose the use of 2! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
After listening to one of Tom Waits' early albums and drinking some craft-brewed bitter, myself, this is all starting to slowly make sense On Dec 2, 6:32 pm, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 16:18 -0800, Brewster Fong wrote: On Dec 2, 3:57 pm, Doug Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with you - 11 12 tooth cogs are silly unless you're racing. I disagree. I run a compact (i.e., 110bcd) double crank with 48/34 rings and in 48x12, its not enough on many downhill roads and could use an 11t on occasions. So the point is, if you're riding long downhills and use a small big ring like a 48t or 46t, then an 11 or 12t can be useful. Maybe so, although a 48x13 == 100 inches, which is plenty high enough for singles, in my opinion. But then, I don't ride long downhills - the hills tend to be short where I ride, and I pick up enough speed from sheer mass and the power of my Special Relationship with Gravity that I really don't feel a need to pedal beyond 35 mph. In fact, I find Jan's argument in BQ that pedalling downhill makes little sense compared to getting in an aero tuck and coasting. I'd bet a six-pack of a craft-brewed lager you can get into an aero tuck as slippery as an eel -- unlike me, for example. The closest I can get to an aero tuck looks a good bit more like the broadside of a barn than it does those photos of Jan in BQ. Do you combine pedalling with an aero tuck? Do you actually pedal for power, or is it more something to do to keep your legs limber? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
After about 25 mph, I'm happy to coast. Heck, I pedaled all the way UP the hill, why should I pedal down as well? FWIW, the cheap cassettes I use come in a 12-32 8 speed. When the original 46 36 rings wore out, I tossed on a 44 / 34 pair I had laying around. 44 x 12 is around 100 is still beyond my needs. So I've got a useful 7 speed with an overdrive for occasional use. Of course, all this is just part of gearing for bicycles - hours of fun debate for you your friends. dougP -Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Palincsar Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 4:32 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 16:18 -0800, Brewster Fong wrote: On Dec 2, 3:57 pm, Doug Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with you - 11 12 tooth cogs are silly unless you're racing. I disagree. I run a compact (i.e., 110bcd) double crank with 48/34 rings and in 48x12, its not enough on many downhill roads and could use an 11t on occasions. So the point is, if you're riding long downhills and use a small big ring like a 48t or 46t, then an 11 or 12t can be useful. Maybe so, although a 48x13 == 100 inches, which is plenty high enough for singles, in my opinion. But then, I don't ride long downhills - the hills tend to be short where I ride, and I pick up enough speed from sheer mass and the power of my Special Relationship with Gravity that I really don't feel a need to pedal beyond 35 mph. In fact, I find Jan's argument in BQ that pedalling downhill makes little sense compared to getting in an aero tuck and coasting. I'd bet a six-pack of a craft-brewed lager you can get into an aero tuck as slippery as an eel -- unlike me, for example. The closest I can get to an aero tuck looks a good bit more like the broadside of a barn than it does those photos of Jan in BQ. Do you combine pedalling with an aero tuck? Do you actually pedal for power, or is it more something to do to keep your legs limber? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
thieves suck On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Bill Rhea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm 6'3, 200lbs and have broken axles twice on Campy Nuovo Record hubs. I had a Phil Wood freewheel hub many years ago, which was pretty much indestructible (until a thief separated me from that old Bontrager mountain bike - sniff). I've never had any issues with cassette hub axles. However, this brings me to my AHH I didn't have a 135mm spaced, 700c rear wheel to put on the AHH and did not have the coin to just go out and buy one, so I resurrected an old but true pair of Specialized sealed hubs (maybe made by Suzue back in the early 80's?) laced to Mavic MA 40's to run on this bike. Needing to respace the hub from 126 to 135, I was turned away from 3 shops until, lo and behold, I found a NOS titanium axle of the exact length to fit the bill that had been sitting in a drawer in Menlo Velo since, well, the 80's. So far the wheels feel strong and silky smooth, but I am a bit worried that I may break that axle at an inconvenient moment (like the upcoming Moss Beach Randonnee). What do you guys think? Place your bets on when / if that axle will break Meanwhile, should I save my pennies for a decent cassette hub, or go Phil Wood / freewheel? -br my first post to the RBW group! On Dec 1, 12:17 pm, Peter Flint [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No doubt there's plenty in the archives on this subject, but one quick difference in my opinion is the greater strength of the cassette/ freehub system. I'm a big guy, 6'2 210lbs. I've broken one axle on a freewheel and seen several others bent by people of similar size. Never had any trouble on freehub bikes. Which is not to say I don't ride freewheels - I have a couple frames with freewheels on them, but I do try to ride a bit more gently on them. Also it's a bit easier to customize your gearing on the cassette vs. the freewheel. But this depends on your needs of course. Peter NYC On Dec 1, 3:05 pm, Seth Vidal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If this has been discussed previously, I'll be happy to be referred to the archives. what's the functional differences between cassettes and freewheels? I'm looking at wheels on riv's site and I can't figure out what I'd be gaining or losing with one or the other. thanks, -sv- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- Cheers, David Redlands, CA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
Actually broke the hollow bolt that holds the cassette part of the hub to the hub part of the hub (I hope that makes sense) on a Shimano MTB hub (LX I think). The axle was fine. The hub was NOT ridden lightly. Never a problem with any Phil Wood hub, cassette or freewheel. Angus On Dec 2, 2:07 pm, Horace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I used to weigh 135, rode lightly, and I broke axles so often that I kept spares in my toolbox at home. Then I switched away from Campy (Super Record) hubs and I haven't broken an axle since then (switched to Suntour Superbe, and later to Shimano freehubs). So the question ought to be... any one break a NON-Campagnolo axle recently? :-) Horace. On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Bill Rhea [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm 6'3, 200lbs and have broken axles twice on Campy Nuovo Record hubs. I had a Phil Wood freewheel hub many years ago, which was pretty much indestructible (until a thief separated me from that old Bontrager mountain bike - sniff). I've never had any issues with cassette hub axles. However, this brings me to my AHH I didn't have a 135mm spaced, 700c rear wheel to put on the AHH and did not have the coin to just go out and buy one, so I resurrected an old but true pair of Specialized sealed hubs (maybe made by Suzue back in the early 80's?) laced to Mavic MA 40's to run on this bike. Needing to respace the hub from 126 to 135, I was turned away from 3 shops until, lo and behold, I found a NOS titanium axle of the exact length to fit the bill that had been sitting in a drawer in Menlo Velo since, well, the 80's. So far the wheels feel strong and silky smooth, but I am a bit worried that I may break that axle at an inconvenient moment (like the upcoming Moss Beach Randonnee). What do you guys think? Place your bets on when / if that axle will break Meanwhile, should I save my pennies for a decent cassette hub, or go Phil Wood / freewheel? -br my first post to the RBW group! On Dec 1, 12:17 pm, Peter Flint [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No doubt there's plenty in the archives on this subject, but one quick difference in my opinion is the greater strength of the cassette/ freehub system. I'm a big guy, 6'2 210lbs. I've broken one axle on a freewheel and seen several others bent by people of similar size. Never had any trouble on freehub bikes. Which is not to say I don't ride freewheels - I have a couple frames with freewheels on them, but I do try to ride a bit more gently on them. Also it's a bit easier to customize your gearing on the cassette vs. the freewheel. But this depends on your needs of course. Peter NYC On Dec 1, 3:05 pm, Seth Vidal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If this has been discussed previously, I'll be happy to be referred to the archives. what's the functional differences between cassettes and freewheels? I'm looking at wheels on riv's site and I can't figure out what I'd be gaining or losing with one or the other. thanks, -sv- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Tue, 2008-12-02 at 17:07 -0800, MichaelH wrote: In 30 years of riding and overhauling bikes I have never had to use a six foot bar to remove a freewheel and I have never stripped one out, or the hub it was attached to. The LBS stripped my first freewheel when I had less than 1000 miles on the bike, one of the many times they had to remove the freewheel to replace a broken spoke. I've had the LBS had to use a cheater bar and one time a bench vise to remove the freewheel from a tandem. Seven spd 13 -28 freewheels offer regularly spaced gears and when mated to a 50x40x28 or 26 offer a very wide range of useable gears. Freewheels with a 12 small cog are most often racing sets 12-24 or less., but a 9 speed cassette, 12x 27, can be mated with smaller rings to provide about the same high gear and a decent low gear, 34x 27 for most road riding situations. I have one bike set up with a 20/32/44 MTB crank and a 12-27 9spd cassette. I won't do that again. 24/36/48 and a 13-30 9spd custom cassette is MUCH better. There is no need to widen the cog set out to 32 or 34, with the resulting wide gear jumps. It is better to go to smaller rings, or a triple crank if you want to get down below 30 gear inches. No the cranks don't know whether your using a freewheel or a cassette, but your legs know when the gears are spaced too far apart or have too small a range. What can I say? YMMV. I've gone the microdrive route, and I won't be going there again. I'm back to 110/74 cranks. As for servicing, it is more work to overhaul a cassette hub than a freewheel. The cassette requires disassembling all of the cogs, then pulling the freehub off to get to the bearings. It took me less than 2 min to remove a cassette, and I had never done it and didn't know what I was doing, just following instructions from the Park Tool web site. Disassemble all of the cogs? Most of them are mounted on a carrier anyway, and to remove them after unlocking the lock ring you just slide them off. I'm so not a mechanic I could win boobie prizes for it, and I can swap cassettes like nobody's business. But if you like freewheels, more power to you. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
My quick take. Had been out of biking for a long time and was glad for cassettes when getting back in. Mainly, they could handle my weight (started riding again at 370). Broke spokes. But not axles. There are other reasons. None of which are appropriate on this list (mainly me talking about old times and bikes.) Lastly - the sound of a cassette hub is more pleasing to my ears than the older freewheel hubs. Eric Platt St. Paul, MN --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 15:17 -0800, MichaelH wrote: From a technical pov - durability, shifting performance etc - there's not much difference. I've logged tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of miles on each without much problem with either. I like the convenience of 7 spd hubs, available from IRD, with a triple crank; but with a double the Shimano 12 - 27 casette allows for a smaller outside ring, 48 or 46, and then an easier shift to a 34 or 32 on the inside. Freewheels are still cheaper and easier to service. 7 speed IRD freewheels are more expensive than 7 speed Shimano cassettes. It's not much trouble removing and replacing a cassette: I've never heard of anybody having to use a six foot cheater bar to remove a cassette lockring, and I can't imagine ever stripping out the removal slot on a cassette lockring. I doubt there are many old timers who haven't stripped a freewheel when trying to get it off, and I don't think there are many tandem owners with freewheels who haven't had trouble unscrewing them. As for the advantages of compact cranks: cranks don't care whether the sprockets in back are on a freewheel or a cassette. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:12 PM, Dustin Sharp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can think of a few advantages: (1) Dishless wheel (with Phil Riv Hubs) (2) Works easier with friction shifting, if that's your thing. Dish has to do with frame and axle spacing and the number of cogs and is not limited to freewheel hubs. And there is absolutely no difference at all between shifting a freewheel and shifting a cassette with similar teeth. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
Using Phil Hubs . you don't lose anything. If it wasn't for IRD or SunRace there would be slim pickings, but there is a market for them. My last wheels I had built 8 years ago I chose a Phil FW 7speed 135mm hub because I wanted the strongest wheels I could get. I'm at a point in my life where I no longer worry about weight, but minimal maintenance is what I want these days. I bought 5 13-32 Sachs/Sram FW's because I knew SRAM was bailing out of making them. Do I regret going with freewheels? Sometimes I was worried, like when they were becoming very scarce. But, it was just fear and there are thousands of people like me that have no desire or need for 8,9 or 10 speed sprockets. I also think about if I would have gone with an 8 speed cassette at the time I made my decision, I would be no better off. Look at the selection of 8 speed ones now. they are becoming less available, and the ones that are available are lower end ones. Then, look at the gear selections . fewer and fewer choices. I have no use for 11 or 12 tooth sprockets so try to find any cassette without one of those. Sure, Harris Cycles makes some custom ones, but they can be over a hundred dollars for the better ones. So, when I chose my wheels. it was a 50/50 deal on what to do. It's no different today as I have no desire for the 9 and 10 speed spockets. If I need some more wheels I'd still likely get another 135mm 7speed Phil hub. The point here is that there is no sure thing in the bicycle world. Freewheels have a very long history and they're no going away anytime soon. No one knows the future.. but I do believe it's good to have a choice, is it not? We aren't stuck with one or the other. They both work, and work well. -Garth --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Dec 1, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: It's not much trouble removing and replacing a cassette: I've never heard of anybody having to use a six foot cheater bar to remove a cassette lockring, and I can't imagine ever stripping out the removal slot on a cassette lockring. I doubt there are many old timers who haven't stripped a freewheel when trying to get it off, and I don't think there are many tandem owners with freewheels who haven't had trouble unscrewing them. This may have reminded Jim Thill of the tale of my freewheel at his shop. It was a Sachs 7 speed on a Phil hub that lives on my old A/ R. The wheel was built in 1996 and the freewheel was off once or twice in the next couple of years, put back on with liberal amounts of Phil grease on the threads, but since a 135 mm/7 speed has only about 1 mm of dish, I've never broken a spoke in 12+ years despite being a 220 lb guy. I tried to get it off once to replace it, around 2000 or so, and it was stuck on the hub. Actually broke the tool at the bike shop I took it to. But freewheels don't wear out in the bearings very readily, cogs can be replaced and so there wasn't much reason to take the freewheel off, until finally I could no longer find replacement cogs and the chain was starting to skip. So I got a new 7 speed freewheel, rolled up my sleeves, put the freewheel tool in the vice and the wheel on the tool. I turned the wheel. Nothing. Double checked the righty tighty, lefty loosey thing. Tried again. Nada. Twisted harder. Zip. Even twisted the tool into a slight spiral. Nope. My vice spun around on the workbench. The freewheel mocked me and whispered derisory comments. So, knowing the reputation that Jim's genius mechanic has for these things, I rode over to Jim's shop with new freewheel in tow and presented my dilemma to Mongo. I figured I'd be home before dark. Two solid hours later, the freewheel was still on the hub. We'd tried the shop vice- we flexed the vice jaws alarmingly. We tried a giant cheater bar. We disassembled the freewheel down to the bit left on the hub. We tried a huge pipe wrench. We tried a big hammer and a drift punch. We tried a torch. We tried an air impact wrench and exhausted the compressor's capacity. We tried all these things in various combinations. Mongo took it over to the chop shop across the street and tried *their* giant compressor with a bigger air wrench. We tried various penetrating oils. Nothing. Not a tiniest fraction of an inch of budging. I got a ride home from Jim's business partner and left the bike at the shop. This was ignominious, I haven't left a bike at a shop for repair in 30 years (back before I worked at a bike shop). Mongo called the next day to say it was done. I was busy with a prior commitment so my wonderful wife went and picked it up for me- he'd apparently had to use an angle grinder to finally get the darned thing off. I didn't ask for too many details. Some things are better left a mystery! 4+ hours total labor. The new freewheel works great. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2008-12-01 at 14:38 -0800, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Picking a few nits. The dishless thing, the importance of which is often overstated, can be approximated with just about any MTB cassette hub and a o/c rim. IRD freewheels are available to shops through one bay-area distributor, and, as far as I know, nowhere else. A small niche, non-OEM product through a single quirky distributor on the far end of the country is not what I would call widely available or something that I'd bet the farm will still be around in five years. Most of us (shops) get Shimano freewheels, the variety of which has shrunk in the last couple years. I assume we'll be able to get a limited selection of freewheels _somewhere_ for years to come, but I'd prefer to have something I can find in some variety at any bike shop. Piling on here, for a moment: Even if you discount concerns regarding future availability of freewheels, the current range of available gearing in 7 spd freewheels is limited compared to the range available with cassettes. My personal favorites, the 13-30, 13-34 and the 14-32 have no freewheel counterparts. And 7 is as far as it goes in the freewheel world. Should you wish to go to 8, 9 or beyond, you are simply out of luck. Modern cassette hubs, on the other hand, will accept 7, 8, 9 and 10 speed cassettes. I know it's easy to customize the gearing on a cassette. Is it even possible with the freewheels that are available today? Or even, for example, a 3-speed, as i have on my Surly (inspired in part by Lon Haldeman's 3-cog cassette wheel on his Rivendell). Count me as a fan of cassette hubs. -- Bill Connell St. Paul, MN --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[RBW] Re: cassettes vs freewheels
On Dec 1, 2:53 pm, Steve Palincsar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Piling on here, for a moment: Even if you discount concerns regarding future availability of freewheels, the current range of available gearing in 7 spd freewheels is limited compared to the range available with cassettes. My personal favorites, the 13-30, 13-34 and the 14-32 have no freewheel counterparts. That partly depends on what numbers you like in between. Some freewheels won't give you certain combinations, it's true, but other less-than-optimum combinations are perfectly fine for city riding. My two regular bikes both use freewheel hubs. Okay, Phil Wood freewheel hubs. With hubs that durable, why not stick with freewheels? And if they still have life left in them, why not go with slightly used ones, especially if you run your bikes in friction? Here's a helpful tip: Used-but-decent freewheels are popping up all over ebay and craigslist and many can be had for less than ten bucks. Combined with a new KMC Z-50 chain and run in pure friction I've never, ever had a problem with them. No skipping, no chain-dropping, nothing'. Admittedly, I can usually find seemingly dead' freewheels in the metal recycling that a co-worker put there because they were rusty or too filthy to spend time cleaning or whatever. In far too many cases, those 5- and 6-speed freewheels -- mostly older Suntour friction -- came back beautifully with some elbow grease and solvent on my part. They had lots of life left in them, and shouldn't have been tossed into the recycling bin just yet. The 5-speed 14-32 on my All-Rounder and the 6-speed 14-30 on my LongLow/city bike were both resurrected from our shop's metal recycling bin. I have a box of perhaps seven or eight more of these, all scavenged from various shops' recycling bins (I get around), scrubbed clean and re-lubed with my trusty freewheel lubing tool (I had fun explaining to a 24-year-old dealer rep the other day what the tool was and what it was for. He grew up riding full-suspension ATB's with cassettes. Last week it was a lesson on Helicomatic hubs; whoo- whee!). After cleaning and lubing, each freewheel is wrapped carefully and stored away. I expect I have enough to get me through the next seven to ten years at the rate I ride. Call me a cheapskate. It's okay. I probably am. (Meanwhile, I have asked my co-workers to please show me their dead freewheels before chucking them into the recycling. The last one I fished out was -- get this! -- a Shimano 600, 6-speed 14-32 with some rust on it. I scrubbed off most of the rust, cleaned out the gunk from the bearings, and re-lubed it. Clearly labelled used: cleaned re- lubed, it sold last week for 25 bucks to a collector. So there's still lots of love out there for freewheels. IMHO, IRD and SunRace are very smart to keep on making them.) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
