subject:"\[RBW\] Thanks Grant"

I was proud to - drive through Santa Rosa - for a few years. Unfortunately it 
was because I lived in very conservative Lake County. Bad plan!

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread John Aydelotte

I was proud to call Santa Rosa home for a few years - even prouder now!

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 10:10:08 PM UTC-6, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> It’s a sin for YOU to be gay. 
> I can be gay and married to a man all day long and live a a happy 
> non-murdered non-shamed non-whatever life because my happiness does not 
> depend on you or your asinine god. Loki and Ganesh are equally irrelevant 
> to me. You are a Pharisee. Your power does not come from love, it comes 
> from telling people to do like you. 
>
> Floor living. Nose breathing. Slow riding. Whatever works to mollify your 
> mind must be best for everyone. If someone gets impaled on a tree while 
> riding faster than you can ride, your takeaway is that he’s a figure of fun 
> for advising people to wear their body armor, instead of changing his 
> behavior to be like yours. 
>
> You learn to ride fixed. It helps your brain, as people told you it would. 
> Two weeks later, you are a proselyte for it, and an expert in all its 
> nuances. I see how you are with bicycles, and I see how you are with 
> “faith.” It ain’t faith. It’s religion. It’s you. 
>
> If mentioning my queer brothers and sisters as if I value them makes you 
> squirm, good. I love them. You, I tolerate, as long as you stick to 
> bicycles. You do not. Far beyond this thread, you make your distaste and 
> superciliousness clear. You speak in coded language about coded language, 
> and now people are speaking plainly. I am speaking plainly. 
>
> You came here. You are uncomfortable with the culture that exists here. 
> The people you choose to associate with have a set of beliefs that are 
> repugnant to you. You wish they would remain silent, so that you might be 
> comfortable, but you do not extend them the same courtesy. 
>
> You claim divine authority for your postition, since you are a “Deacon” in 
> the “Catholic Church.” Your faith informs your beliefs. No idea what that 
> means. My nuts inform my briefs. You’re going to Southern Baptist hell, I’m 
> going to your hell, and none of you self righteous jerks save it for the 
> afterlife. You need to make your hell here on Earth, with yourselves as the 
> demons. 
>
> I am surprised to find that you make your point, and I am convinced. We DO 
> need stronger border controls. For this group. Take your bikes at the 
> border, and maybe give them back after you serve your time. If we can find 
> them. 
>
> Philip 
> Santa Rosa, CA 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Justin, Oakland

Philip-
Are you coming Sunday? If so I’m going to give you a big old hug.

-Justin

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Philip Williamson

It’s a sin for YOU to be gay.
I can be gay and married to a man all day long and live a a happy non-murdered 
non-shamed non-whatever life because my happiness does not depend on you or 
your asinine god. Loki and Ganesh are equally irrelevant to me. You are a 
Pharisee. Your power does not come from love, it comes from telling people to 
do like you.

Floor living. Nose breathing. Slow riding. Whatever works to mollify your mind 
must be best for everyone. If someone gets impaled on a tree while riding 
faster than you can ride, your takeaway is that he’s a figure of fun for 
advising people to wear their body armor, instead of changing his behavior to 
be like yours. 

You learn to ride fixed. It helps your brain, as people told you it would. Two 
weeks later, you are a proselyte for it, and an expert in all its nuances. I 
see how you are with bicycles, and I see how you are with “faith.” It ain’t 
faith. It’s religion. It’s you.

If mentioning my queer brothers and sisters as if I value them makes you 
squirm, good. I love them. You, I tolerate, as long as you stick to bicycles. 
You do not. Far beyond this thread, you make your distaste and superciliousness 
clear. You speak in coded language about coded language, and now people are 
speaking plainly. I am speaking plainly.

You came here. You are uncomfortable with the culture that exists here. The 
people you choose to associate with have a set of beliefs that are repugnant to 
you. You wish they would remain silent, so that you might be comfortable, but 
you do not extend them the same courtesy. 

You claim divine authority for your postition, since you are a “Deacon” in the 
“Catholic Church.” Your faith informs your beliefs. No idea what that means. My 
nuts inform my briefs. You’re going to Southern Baptist hell, I’m going to your 
hell, and none of you self righteous jerks save it for the afterlife. You need 
to make your hell here on Earth, with yourselves as the demons. 

I am surprised to find that you make your point, and I am convinced. We DO need 
stronger border controls. For this group. Take your bikes at the border, and 
maybe give them back after you serve your time. If we can find them. 

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Justin, Oakland

“The only thing I want more than these handlebars is to have children separated 
from their parents so everyone knows that this a terrible place and they should 
never come here!” seems like a sign of mental instability. 

-J

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles

Can you imagine cancelling a bike parts order because someone protested 
children in camps? I cannot imagine being the person who would do this. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Grant Petersen

We are united, independent, and dependent. I love Patrick, who isn't gay,
as much as I love my brother-in-law who is.
I feel bad for my role in the bickering, but not for saying what I said.
I'm sad that good people are growling over it, but happy to see so many
nice comments, too. Everybody's got a point and a position, and we're
exposing more of ourselves than we have before, me  included in that. There
have been cancelled orders, big ones, and there may be more, that's how it
goes and it's no surprise. But there has been some good, too, and a few
cancelled orders are pale consequences, historically, to speaking up or
taking a stand on some of these things. I'm not being hanged or stoned,
thank...goodness.

I'm going to let it run thru mid-day Sunday, and then I'll put up something
about bicycles---which, as important as they are, are not as important as
people...although they always go along and get along with you.
--
I'd like to invite anybody who wants to let off stem to do it to me
directly:  gr...@rivbike.com. I'm not going to swat things back and forth,
I probably won't respond, but I'll read every one respectfully.

I'll try to avoid these topics in future BLAHGs, but if I promise to, I'd
feel too non-independent. If I cross a line that you see and I don't, I ask
but don't demand that you respond to me directly.

Happy 4rth!

Grant

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 7:15 PM, Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles <
4824...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Joe will you be offering patches for your new fan club?
>
> As a group, I think we've handled this conversation rather well
> considering most online decorum.  I'm grateful that the thread was not shut
> down.
>
> Happy 4th everyone.
>
> Alex Wirth
> Rochester, NY
>
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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Timothy Hurley

That Bishop Sheen quote is hilarious! Yea, no one REALLY hates the Catholic 
Church. Why would they? Wait, what have they been hiding/enabling for decades? 
Who have they been paying legal fees to defend? And what’s this about Magdalene 
Laundries? What did Pious XII Do in the 1930’s? Wait, they blocked  the 
distribution of condoms in Africa during the height of the AIDS epidemic? 

I’d go on but my thumb is tired.

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

John,

I replied to you off group, but I know that sometimes fails, so wanted to give 
you a heads up here.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

Joe will you be offering patches for your new fan club?

As a group, I think we've handled this conversation rather well considering 
most online decorum.  I'm grateful that the thread was not shut down.

Happy 4th everyone.

Alex Wirth
Rochester, NY

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch

One of my favorite internet essayists, John Michael Greer, addressed what, 
to me, is the big issue running through this thread--how to leave some 
slack for other people's beliefs, opinions, lifestyles, world view, what 
have you--in his weekly post. I think it's worth a read by those 
participating here.


The Alt-Right, the Ctrl-Left, and the Esc-Center July 4, 2018John Michael 
Greer 


On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 9:43:20 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Dear Eamon, 
>
>
> Hard to claim ignorance on this one, for the baker and florist cases 
> recently heard by the Supreme Court make them currently known. These two 
> people gave very good, millenia old religious reasons for refusing to 
> participate in creating works of expression for what their relegion and 
> beliefs tell them is not possible: a wedding between anyone other than one 
> man and one woman. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Bill Gibson

I'm happy I am part of this independent group, on an Independence Day, and
witness to the struggle for freedom, in our persons, and in society, even
among ourselves. There will be deep disagreements. Never assume you are not
in a bubble, and that someone else is. Ride On!
Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA
My Photographs  :
https://billbgibson.myportfolio.com/ and on Behance:
https://www.behance.net/BillGibson 


On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 6:43 PM 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Dear Eamon,
>
> Seriously? You’re are missing my point. However, I’ll explain it as an
> example.
>
> Why is “For blacks, women, and gays, there were no 'good old days”
> controversial? Two things.
>
> First, on the face of it, it dismisses myriad success and contributions
> and lives of blacks and women throughout history, therefore statement
> itself is absurd and while an exageration to make a point, only focuses on
> victimhood within realitively recent history based on values from within
> the bubble imposed upon that history. Many Saints throughout Church history
> were black and other races, as well as women, and I suspect all of they
> would speak of delightful days of wild wonder and abundance. Jesus was
> Palestinian, as were Holy Mary and Joseph.
>
> Second, it creates a yet to be agreed upon equivelancy between rights of a
> lifestyle seen as sinful by many (it’s not sinful to be gay, but to act on
> it is), and race, gender and religious rights. Hard to claim ignorance on
> this one, for the baker and florist cases recently heard by the Supreme
> Court make them currently known. These two people gave very good, millenia
> old religious reasons for refusing to participate in creating works of
> expression for what their relegion and beliefs tell them is not possible: a
> wedding between anyone other than one man and one woman. They offered
> referrals to other businesses that could care for them. They were
> respectful and upheld their human dignity in how they interacted with them.
> That is, through the eyes of my faith, a very different thing from not
> providing a cake or flowers because of the race(s) of the man and woman
> getting married (that is discrimination). For most people, it is not a sin
> to be black and get married, but for many people it is not possible to be
> man and man or woman and woman and get married. To do so is a farce and a
> sin. Is this understanding and belief of marriage hateful? Hateful of sin,
> yes. Hateful of the persons? No. Believe it or not, it loves (and
> challenges) the persons involved, as God’s revealed truth always does.
> Marriage is foundational to society. How we define it matters. To act as if
> it has been redefined by all “enlightened” people is disingenuious.
>
> You needn’t agree with anything I’ve said above to see that statements
> such as these presume or reference things that are not actually settled
> outside the “bubble,” and are thus controversial. However, many here are in
> the “bubble” and thus can’t even see it, and see anyone outside is as
> unenlightened, or intolerant. That’s part of the problem with the “bubble”:
> it’s so tolerant that it’s intolerant. This thread is an excellent example
> of that.
>
> Unless a new topic comes up, I am out of this thread. Celebrate as you see
> fit.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> "There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the
> Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be
> the Catholic Church.  As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all
> of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably
> would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do."
>
> Archbishop Fulton Sheen
>
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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Dear Eamon,

Seriously? You’re are missing my point. However, I’ll explain it as an example.

Why is “For blacks, women, and gays, there were no 'good old days” 
controversial? Two things.

First, on the face of it, it dismisses myriad success and contributions and 
lives of blacks and women throughout history, therefore statement itself is 
absurd and while an exageration to make a point, only focuses on victimhood 
within realitively recent history based on values from within the bubble 
imposed upon that history. Many Saints throughout Church history were black and 
other races, as well as women, and I suspect all of they would speak of 
delightful days of wild wonder and abundance. Jesus was Palestinian, as were 
Holy Mary and Joseph.

Second, it creates a yet to be agreed upon equivelancy between rights of a 
lifestyle seen as sinful by many (it’s not sinful to be gay, but to act on it 
is), and race, gender and religious rights. Hard to claim ignorance on this 
one, for the baker and florist cases recently heard by the Supreme Court make 
them currently known. These two people gave very good, millenia old religious 
reasons for refusing to participate in creating works of expression for what 
their relegion and beliefs tell them is not possible: a wedding between anyone 
other than one man and one woman. They offered referrals to other businesses 
that could care for them. They were respectful and upheld their human dignity 
in how they interacted with them. That is, through the eyes of my faith, a very 
different thing from not providing a cake or flowers because of the race(s) of 
the man and woman getting married (that is discrimination). For most people, it 
is not a sin to be black and get married, but for many people it is not 
possible to be man and man or woman and woman and get married. To do so is a 
farce and a sin. Is this understanding and belief of marriage hateful? Hateful 
of sin, yes. Hateful of the persons? No. Believe it or not, it loves (and 
challenges) the persons involved, as God’s revealed truth always does. Marriage 
is foundational to society. How we define it matters. To act as if it has been 
redefined by all “enlightened” people is disingenuious.

You needn’t agree with anything I’ve said above to see that statements such as 
these presume or reference things that are not actually settled outside the 
“bubble,” and are thus controversial. However, many here are in the “bubble” 
and thus can’t even see it, and see anyone outside is as unenlightened, or 
intolerant. That’s part of the problem with the “bubble”: it’s so tolerant that 
it’s intolerant. This thread is an excellent example of that.

Unless a new topic comes up, I am out of this thread. Celebrate as you see fit. 

With abandon,
Patrick

"There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic 
Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic 
Church.  As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths 
and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church 
a thousand times more than they do."

Archbishop Fulton Sheen

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread John Aydelotte


Damn - where's the old Napster when you need it?

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Btw, Wall Of Text is my new band's name. The new Wall Of Text album, Grins 
> & Bollocks, out now. Steal it wherever digital files are stolen. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread John Aydelotte

I have resisted wading into this morass thus far but can no longer do so.

Patrick:  If 1. Tolerance for gender identities which don't match your own, 
 2. Supporting women's rights to choose what happens to 
their own bodies, & 
 3. Social programs for those less fortunate than we 
...are controversial, I submit that your (possibly religious) world-view is 
seriously out of whack.  When being kind to others, respecting the 
self-determination of others to decide their own identity, and helping 
those in need are "controversial" you have strayed so far from Jesus' 
teaching that I wonder if you can claim to be a christian any longer.

Grant was correct - there is not much controversial in his post - he has 
opinions (which not all have to agree with) but your retort was so loaded 
with IN-tolerance for being kind to and respecting others that it offended 
me deeply.

Is this your religious view speaking?  If so I urge you to seriously 
examine your view of the world as it fits into the tenets of your faith.  
If not, please illuminate me.

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 4:17:44 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> From Grant’s blagh: “Nothing in here is controversial” 
>
> Oxford Dictionary defines “Controversial” as: likely to give rise to 
> public disagreement 
>
> Grant, there are at least three obvious controversial topics in your 
> Blagh: 1) gays/LTBGQ/Gender/Marriage/Identity; 2) reproductive 
> rights/abortion/contraception; 3) government social programs. How is it 
> possible you do not know that a large portion of the general population 
> publically disagrees with you on these? 
>
> Grant, I love you bikes. Your gifted craftsmanship with steel, lugs, and 
> geometry is poetry in motion is part of the grace that allows me to ride a 
> bike despite constant neurological vertigo from a bludgeoned brain. You 
> have gone above and beyond in helping me shift my Hunqapillar to my 
> Hunqabeam. What wondrous gifts for which I am deeply grateful. 
>
> I do not know what the answer is, but the tone of this group has had a 
> dramatic increase in this type of “uncontrovercial” statements that presume 
> everyone is on board, when in fact those statements are contrary to the 
> teaching and faith of most world religions. I have largely let them slide 
> by, but they are erroding the experience of the group for me, and I may not 
> be alone. I plead with folks here to recalibrate your “controvercy” sensor 
> and self-edit, so this group can return to focusing on bikes and riding, 
> and camping, and bikepacking, and commuting, and the joy of sharing the 
> journey, even if it is with someone so foolish and ignorat that he allows 
> his faith to inform his beliefs. 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread 'Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch

Btw, Wall Of Text is my new band's name. The new Wall Of Text album, Grins & 
Bollocks, out now. Steal it wherever digital files are stolen. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

Patrick, if you find the statement "For blacks, women, and gays, there were no 
'good old days." controversial or offensive, I respectfully ask that you 
consider whether you need to recalibrate YOUR controversy sensor.

Eamon
Seattle

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Dear Steve,

All I said is these topics are controversial, and you lambast me with vitriol. 
Your response proves my assertion that these are controversial. Thank you for 
(inadvertantly) supporting my position that they are controversial. Sardonic 
grin.

The “nothing controversial here” quote is direct and from 6 lines down in how I 
your posting of Grant’s Blagh appears on my iPad.

“"For blacks, women, and gays, there were no 'good old days.'"” (A lotta 
quotes, because Grant was quoting his brother-in-law) is the quote I was 
referencing for gays/LTBGQ/Gender/Marriage/Identity

I ask again: I plead with folks here to recalibrate your “controversy” sensor 
and self-edit (it’s not just this post, by a long shot), so this group can 
return to focusing on bikes and riding, and camping, and bikepacking, and 
commuting, and the joy of sharing the journey, even if it is with someone so 
foolish and ignorat that he allows his faith to inform his beliefs.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

WALLS OF TEXT FOR THE WIN!

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread 'Clayton' via RBW Owners Bunch

Sigh, it is only this thread, that has gone off the bike tires and into 
politics. There are lots of other threads. 

If you *support* the current Republican party, no matter how you paint your 
moral compass, you are still complicit. Morality is not flexible. There are 
no grey areas. I tire of people in society excusing themselves to 
themselves. The current Republican *party * is immoral. Not individuals. I 
am painting a broad stroke with a broad statement, and I apologize to those 
I have offended, but the Republican party is full of bigots, white 
terrorists and church burners. Like Nazi's. 'You' are either moral, and 
support those who are, or you're not. Black and white. This has far more to 
do with being good, and making the world a better place than politics. 
My male elders all fought in WW2 and taught me the lessons of the Nazi 
party and how they took over the morality of society. Same crap, different 
country. It's truly shameful. We are being conquered from moral rot, from 
the 'moral, Christian, family party'. Big eye roll. 
Guns and children getting killed by the hundreds in our schools. It is a 
high school social media thing now... Who can raise the body count and kill 
the most bullies? The NRA is the Republican armed forces for Gods sakes. 
More Americans were killed by domestic terrorism by far, than foreign 
terrorists before 911. Most all of them were Republicans. I don't know of 
many Democrats in that terrorism line up, do you? Meanwhile, with the 
Republicans support, thousands of Americans die every year from gun 
violence. Far more than any terrorist attacks from immigrants. As a 
Paramedic, I dealt with lots of dead people, shot full of holes on the 
streets, and 'you' didn't. Gun supporters don't see their children die on 
the streets. I did. Guns are a pompous hobby, dressed up as a patriotic 
right. Meanwhile your drunk neighbor just shot his whole family(In this 
day and age, guns would never prevent a despot from taking over. They would 
just cut off the power and internet and we would be fighting each other. 
All they would have to do is waitlol.).  Make a list of the good and 
bad of each party, then choose the moral one. It is a very simple choice. 
Oh, yeah.and there is that Trump dude. He has to go. And the 'killing 
the planet thing' toowe have to stop that. 

Be true to thine self. 

Clayton DD

(note: 'You' is a broad stroke to cover everyone who hasn't woken up and 
realized they are immoral) 


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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Grant Petersen

If I get the last spot on the committe and can't make it to a meeting,
Phillip gets my spot. If Phillip and I are running against one another, I'd
vote for Phillip.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 1:57 PM, Philip Williamson <
philip.william...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I’d like to be on the monetary committee.
> I just sold my dad’s coin trove (6.2 kg of pocket change from before
> 1965). I kept a handful of Mercury Dimes, a couple different Liberty silver
> dollars, and a Buffalo Nickel. Man, that was good money!
>
> Not sure if I’m in favor of non-US nationals on our currency, but maybe.
> The Google doodles are analogous to people on currency, and they’ve ramped
> up the number of featured immigrants and great people from all over the
> world since 2016. Did you know an Iraqi immigrant invented skyscrapers? The
> external lattice version anyway, that allows them to be enormously tall and
> still strong.
>
> Coin graphics:
> Half Dome (Open Pit Mine obverse)
> Tallest Trees (all the different ones - clear cut obverse)
> Anasazi cliff dwellings
> Full Moon (obverse the “dark” side side we never see)
> Deepwater Horizon fire (seabirds on the obverse)
> Food. Regional dishes.
> Animals. Skunks, moose, orcas. Wooly mammoths.
> Atoms.
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
>
>
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On 07/04/2018 05:37 PM, Ryan Merrill wrote:
Quite frankly, I have to question someone's morality if they still
support Trump and his policies. I personally know a lot of republicans
who do not support him anymore.

From the Washington Post today
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-left-the-republican-party-now-i-want-democrats-to-take-over/2018/07/03/54a4007a-7e38-11e8-b0ef-fffcabeff946_story.html?utm_term=.ed833a3c8781

I left the Republican Party. Now I want Democrats to take over.

by Max Boot Columnist
July 4 at 9:52 AM

“Should I stay or should I go now?” That question
,
posed by the eminent political philosophers known as the Clash, is one
that confronts any Republican with a glimmer of conscience. You used to
belong to a conservative party with a white-nationalist fringe. Now it’s
a white-nationalist party with a conservative fringe. If you’re part of
that fringe, what should you do?

Veteran strategist Steve Schmidt
,
who ran John McCain’s 2008 campaign, is the latest Republican to say “no
more.” Recently he issued an anguished Twitter post: “29 years and nine
months ago I registered to vote and became a member of the Republican
Party which was founded in 1854 to oppose slavery and stand for the
dignity of human life,” he wrote
.
“Today I renounce my membership in the Republican Party. It is fully the
party of Trump.”

Schmidt follows in the illustrious footsteps of Post columnist George F.
Will
,
former senator Gordon Humphrey
,
former representative (and Post columnist) Joe Scarborough
,
Reagan and Bush (both) aide Peter Wehner
,
and other Republicans who have left the party. I’m with them. After a
lifetime as a Republican, I re-registered as an independent on the day
after Donald Trump’s election.

Explaining my decision, I noted

that Trumpkins “want to transform the GOP into a European-style
nationalist party that opposes cuts in entitlement programs, believes in
deportation of undocumented immigrants, white identity politics,
protectionism and isolationism backed by hyper-macho threats to bomb the
living daylights out of anyone who messes with us.” I still hoped then
that traditional conservatives might eventually prevail, but, I wrote,
“I can no longer support a party that doesn’t know what it stands for —
and that in fact may stand for positions that I find repugnant.”

I am more convinced than ever that I made the right decision. The
transformation I feared has taken place. Just look at the reaction to
President Trump’s barbarous policy of taking children away from their
parents as punishment for the misdemeanor offense of illegally entering
the country. While two-thirds of Americans disapproved of this
state-sanctioned child abuse, forcing the president to back down, a
majority of Republicans approved
.
If Trump announced he were going to spit-roast immigrant kids and eat
them on national TV (apologies to Jonathan Swift
), most
Republicans probably would approve of that, too. The entire Republican
platform can now be reduced to three words: whatever Trump says.

And yet there are still principled #NeverTrump conservatives such as Tom
Nichols and Bill Kristol who are staying in the party. And they have a
good case to make. Kristol, for one, balks “at giving up the Republican
party to the forces of nativism, vulgar populism, and authoritarianism.”
As he notes
, “It
would be bad for the

Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

>From Grant’s blagh: “Nothing in here is controversial”

Oxford Dictionary defines “Controversial” as: likely to give rise to public 
disagreement

Grant, there are at least three obvious controversial topics in your Blagh: 1) 
gays/LTBGQ/Gender/Marriage/Identity; 2) reproductive 
rights/abortion/contraception; 3) government social programs. How is it 
possible you do not know that a large portion of the general population 
publically disagrees with you on these?

Grant, I love you bikes. Your gifted craftsmanship with steel, lugs, and 
geometry is poetry in motion is part of the grace that allows me to ride a bike 
despite constant neurological vertigo from a bludgeoned brain. You have gone 
above and beyond in helping me shift my Hunqapillar to my Hunqabeam. What 
wondrous gifts for which I am deeply grateful.

I do not know what the answer is, but the tone of this group has had a dramatic 
increase in this type of “uncontrovercial” statements that presume everyone is 
on board, when in fact those statements are contrary to the teaching and faith 
of most world religions. I have largely let them slide by, but they are 
erroding the experience of the group for me, and I may not be alone. I plead 
with folks here to recalibrate your “controvercy” sensor and self-edit, so this 
group can return to focusing on bikes and riding, and camping, and bikepacking, 
and commuting, and the joy of sharing the journey, even if it is with someone 
so foolish and ignorat that he allows his faith to inform his beliefs. 

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread ctifusion

Thanks to Joe for doing the heavy lifting on this thread. And thanks, again, to 
Grant for being smart, ethical, and reasonable. It's not political to 
understand, point out, and act on the real effects of inequality in our country.

Also, happy to order a bunch of stuff today in support of Grant and Rivendell 
and this community.

Brynnar
Indy

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Ryan Merrill

Quite frankly, I have to question someone's morality if they still support 
Trump and his policies. I personally know a lot of republicans who do not 
support him anymore.

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 12:57:23 PM UTC-5, Chris Birkenmaier wrote:
>
> Clayton, you asked that no one respond  but your opening made me comment. 
> I am sorry for the past circumstances of your life. As a mother myself I 
> can only feel compassion for children and those that had difficult 
> childhoods 
>
>
> I feel the need to draw the line at painting all Republicans as evil 
> individuals.  I’m a moderate by almost anyone’s definition but I am a 
> registered Republican.  Broad stroke condemnations are harmful and normally 
> not accurate. I married a Democrat.  We’ve had 26 happy years together. I 
> wish others could find a common ground of compassion and respect for one 
> another 
>
> This thread is why I wish political discussions were not welcome at this 
> forum 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Philip Williamson

I’d like to be on the monetary committee.
I just sold my dad’s coin trove (6.2 kg of pocket change from before 1965). I 
kept a handful of Mercury Dimes, a couple different Liberty silver dollars, and 
a Buffalo Nickel. Man, that was good money!

Not sure if I’m in favor of non-US nationals on our currency, but maybe. The 
Google doodles are analogous to people on currency, and they’ve ramped up the 
number of featured immigrants and great people from all over the world since 
2016. Did you know an Iraqi immigrant invented skyscrapers? The external 
lattice version anyway, that allows them to be enormously tall and still 
strong. 

Coin graphics:
Half Dome (Open Pit Mine obverse)
Tallest Trees (all the different ones - clear cut obverse)
Anasazi cliff dwellings 
Full Moon (obverse the “dark” side side we never see)
Deepwater Horizon fire (seabirds on the obverse)
Food. Regional dishes.
Animals. Skunks, moose, orcas. Wooly mammoths.
Atoms.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA



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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Bill Eberle in Columbus, Ohio

Maybe Grant is too modest to suggest the obvious, but I'm not: A Hunqapillar 
head badge rewicked into a coin or center oval portion on paper currency. How 
could anyone not agree on that?

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Rod Holland

Thank you, Grant, for the image of a coin with Pooh's butt on the obverse. 
This is a genuinely optimistic vision for an American future. Everybody 
read the new Blahg post, and reconvene. Have a Safe and Sane Fourth of 
July, y'all.

rod

On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 2:31:54 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>
> There's a new BLAHG up, and it'll be up thru the weekend. On the surface 
> it may seem to be adding fuel to the fire, etc., but if you wade thru the 
> whole thing (as I have!), I don't think you'll find too much controversy in 
> it.
> Grant "Possibly Incredibly Naive" Petersen
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Joe Bernard  > wrote:
>
>> My best friend is a Republican. I don't traffic in "all members of a 
>> particular party are bad" BS, I object to THIS policy from THIS 
>> president..who isn't even a real Republican. He was a liberal Democrat 
>> 15-20 years ago, and would have stayed there if he could've found a 
>> foothold. But Putin and Fox News both figured out (independently and 
>> simultaneously) that his autocratic tendencies fit the righty side, so 
>> started grooming him for a Republican presidential run.  
>>
>> I don't think either entity thought it would work, but combine the power 
>> of the consolidated voice of conservatism in cable news with Russia's 
>> astonishing election meddling prowess and you get the lunatic we have now 
>> in the WH. Heckuva job, America! 👍
>>
>> -- 
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Steve Palincsar

On 07/04/2018 06:27 AM, Richard wrote:

IMHO, not that anyone is asking, Grant should separate his politics
from his business. Though you would never know it from this google
group, not all purchasers of Rivendell bikes, myself included, share
his political leanings.

Older consumers tend to have more disposable income, and tend to be
more conservative. Why deliberately alienate them? We're not
heartless, selfish monsters just because we're not liberal Democrats.

No, you are a heartless selfish monster because you support a policy
that itself is cruel, indecent, heartless: in a word, monstrous.

And don't think for one microsecond that only "liberal Democrats" oppose
the policy. Consider for a moment this recent Washington Post column by
Jennifer Rubin, as genuinely conservative a columnist as ever there was:

Decency wins — and Trump gets smacked down

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2018/06/27/decency-wins-and-trump-gets-smacked-down/?utm_term=.eee2d31d21cd

by Jennifer Rubin
June 27

On the same day that the Supreme Court upheld President Trump’s
travel ban in a tortured ruling, a district court judge hearing a
suit on behalf of a class of migrants separated from their children
struck a blow for common decency and family reunification. The Post
reports

Judge Dana M. Sabraw of the United States District Court for the
Southern District of California granted a preliminary injunction
sought by the American Civil Liberties Union. He said all
children must be reunited with their families within 30 days,
allowing just 14 days for the return of children under 5 to
their parents. He ordered that parents must be entitled to speak
by phone with their children within 10 days.

The court slammed the administration

for “a chaotic circumstance of the Government’s own making.” Sabraw,
appointed by President George W. Bush, found: “This
situation has reached a crisis level. The news media is saturated
with stories of immigrant families being separated at the border.
People are protesting. Elected officials are weighing in. Congress
is threatening action. Seventeen states have now filed a complaint
against the Federal Government challenging the family separation
practice.”

In issuing an injunction, the court found there was a likelihood
that the plaintiffs would succeed on a due process claim. (“We are a
country of laws, and of compassion. We have plainly stated our
intent to treat refugees with an ordered process, and benevolence,
by codifying principles of asylum. The Government’s treatment . . .
[of] class members does not meet this standard, and it is unlikely
to pass constitutional muster.”) The court continued:

The practice of separating these families was implemented
without any effective system or procedure for (1) tracking the
children after they were separated from their parents, (2)
enabling communication between the parents and their children
after separation, and (3) reuniting the parents and children
after the parents are returned to immigration
custody following completion of their criminal sentence. This is
a startling reality. The government readily keeps track of
personal property of detainees in criminal and immigration
proceedings. Money, important documents, and automobiles, to
name a few, at all levels — state and federal, citizen and
alien. Yet, the government has no system in place to keep track
of , provide effective communication with, and promptly produce
alien children. The unfortunate reality is that under the
present system migrant children are not accounted for with the
same efficiency and accuracy as property. Certainly, that cannot
satisfy the requirements of due process.

The court cited at length the findings of the Children’s Defense
Fund regarding the extensive harm done to children forcibly
separated from their parents. The court expressed the shock and
dismay many ordinary Americans are feeling:

The facts set forth before the Court portray
reactive governance — responses to address a chaotic
circumstance of the Government’s own making. They belie measured
and ordered governance, which is central to the concept of due
process enshrined in our Constitution. This is particularly so
in the treatment of migrants, many of whom are asylum seekers
and small children. The extraordinary remedy of class

Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Grant Petersen

There's a new BLAHG up, and it'll be up thru the weekend. On the surface it
may seem to be adding fuel to the fire, etc., but if you wade thru the
whole thing (as I have!), I don't think you'll find too much controversy in
it.
Grant "Possibly Incredibly Naive" Petersen

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 11:14 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> My best friend is a Republican. I don't traffic in "all members of a
> particular party are bad" BS, I object to THIS policy from THIS
> president..who isn't even a real Republican. He was a liberal Democrat
> 15-20 years ago, and would have stayed there if he could've found a
> foothold. But Putin and Fox News both figured out (independently and
> simultaneously) that his autocratic tendencies fit the righty side, so
> started grooming him for a Republican presidential run.
>
> I don't think either entity thought it would work, but combine the power
> of the consolidated voice of conservatism in cable news with Russia's
> astonishing election meddling prowess and you get the lunatic we have now
> in the WH. Heckuva job, America! 👍
>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

My best friend is a Republican. I don't traffic in "all members of a particular 
party are bad" BS, I object to THIS policy from THIS president..who isn't even 
a real Republican. He was a liberal Democrat 15-20 years ago, and would have 
stayed there if he could've found a foothold. But Putin and Fox News both 
figured out (independently and simultaneously) that his autocratic tendencies 
fit the righty side, so started grooming him for a Republican presidential run. 
 

I don't think either entity thought it would work, but combine the power of the 
consolidated voice of conservatism in cable news with Russia's astonishing 
election meddling prowess and you get the lunatic we have now in the WH. 
Heckuva job, America! 👍

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Chris Birkenmaier

Clayton, you asked that no one respond  but your opening made me comment. I am 
sorry for the past circumstances of your life. As a mother myself I can only 
feel compassion for children and those that had difficult childhoods 


I feel the need to draw the line at painting all Republicans as evil 
individuals.  I’m a moderate by almost anyone’s definition but I am a 
registered Republican.  Broad stroke condemnations are harmful and normally not 
accurate. I married a Democrat.  We’ve had 26 happy years together. I wish 
others could find a common ground of compassion and respect for one another

This thread is why I wish political discussions were not welcome at this forum 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Drw

Well, I’m starting to hate everyone who keeps posting. including myself 
now. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

"With people like you Joe I'm surprised anyone stays..."

People love me, man..it's like a freakin' Joe Bernard Fan Club around here. 
Deal with it!

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Richard

What the hell is wrong with posting on an open thread? If no one was 
suppose to post, why wasn't the thread closed?

And who the hell are you Joe Bernard to tell me I can't post?

I don't visit this group much, but so what?

With people like you Joe I'm surprised anyone stays...

Patrick, your post was spot on, thanks for sharing it with us. 





On Wednesday, July 4, 2018 at 10:38:17 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> "Very thoughtful and well written post Deacon."
>
> It's Patrick; deacon is the thing Patrick does at church. You showed up 
> here a week late to troll a dead thread and don't even know who Deacon 
> Patrick is. Also, you don't like Rivendells anymore and won't shop there, 
> but you have business advice for Grant. I'm glad we've cleared this up.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Jonathan D.

Patrick,

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I definitely disagree with several of 
your opinions but hearing your point of view is important. We can’t all just 
sit in our echo chamber and need more civil discourse in our society and 
thoughtful debate. 

I hope the thread or the tone of this thread change and it doesn’t spill over 
into our other threads and future topics debating the subtle differences 
between the MIT  and MUSA Atlantis Bikes. I would also  still love to read some 
more MIT Atlantis ride reports, comparisons with other models (Appaloossa 
specifically) and mountain bike speculation. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

"Very thoughtful and well written post Deacon."

It's Patrick; deacon is the thing Patrick does at church. You showed up here a 
week late to troll a dead thread and don't even know who Deacon Patrick is. 
Also, you don't like Rivendells anymore and won't shop there, but you have 
business advice for Grant. I'm glad we've cleared this up.  

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Garth

   Just give it up Richard , and everyone else "trying" to get their little 
"last jab" in because "an ending" is not the intent, a continuance of the 
back-and-forth "fight against"  is  a never ending accusing of the 
other by excusing oneself for throwing the "last jab". 
 

It's really self-serving nonsense.  Nothing has been changed, no one is 
helped. The "issues/accusations" are again but an excuse to 
"do-say-whatever-the-fuck-I-want-because-blah-blah-blah"  .  The "fight 
against" has nothing to do with the issues/accusations/excuses. 


The "fight against" is the very thing the "fight against" is fighting 
against.   A fight against nothing, and nothing cannot be fought with, as 
nothing is nothing. So who's the fighter ?  No one, there isn't one. 


In Truth, all there is, is Truth Itself. 


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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-04 Thread Richard

Just one more post.. I can't help myselflike the little kid trying to 
get the last word in:)

Very thoughtful and well written post Deacon. Please continue to speak your 
mind.

I'm in agreement with you on the need to protect the unborn. With recent 
events unfolding, I feel we're going to have a national conversation about 
it soon. Long overdue in my mind.

IMHO, not that anyone is asking, Grant should separate his politics from 
his business. Though you would never know it from this google group, not 
all purchasers of Rivendell bikes, myself included, share his political 
leanings. 

Older consumers tend to have more disposable income, and tend to be more 
conservative. Why deliberately alienate them? We're not heartless, selfish 
monsters just because we're not liberal Democrats.

It's really a matter of what's appropriate on a business website. Inserting 
politics into a small business, one dependent on internet sales, is simply 
a bad idea, especially in this age of instant internet boycotts. 

Yes, I know Grant writes on his BLAG but I believe it links to the store 
website.

 Have you read about the royal screwup at Walmart recently?

 Apparently some Walmart's are selling "Impeach 45" T shirts and someone 
posted about it on Twitter. The tweet immediately went viral  and the 
outcry created an instant #BoycottWalmart trend on Twitter. 

Of course Walmart is pulling the t shirts, but the damage is done. A major 
PR nightmare for a retailer with a presence in every red state in the 
country. 

Sorry guys, its probably too late to buy the T-shirts..:)

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 4:09:34 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> What do we want this group to be? Grant laments having to edit himself too 
> much, yet that is exactly what those here who disagree with “lefties” are 
> often asked to silently do. 
>
> I’m not sure the “lefties,” as Grant self-described, realize how much of 
> the lefty echo chamber gets unwittingly expressed in various ways on this 
> group nor do they realize the choice it presents with folks who disagree. 
> In part this is because they think such conclusions are commonplace across 
> they country and in human thought and understanding. Sometimes (as 
> evidenced in this thread), this is paired with the judgement that anyone 
> who disagrees (or expresses nuanced agreement) is backward, inhuman, 
> primative, ignorant, or worse. I generally let them slide. To suggest I’ve 
> finally turned a conversation to what I want to talk about is incorrect. 
> Over the years, various references to the code languague of the left have 
> been used (both by Grant in writings and by others on this group), such as 
> “women’s reproductive rights,” or “free to love whomever they choose,” or 
> other positions that inherantly go against my understanding of human 
> dignity. once understood what they stand for. 
>
> The above is one of the reasons I “went there.” If not everyone can agree 
> with science that a human egg fertalized by a human sperm is both human and 
> alive and thus logically has human rights, including to life, we need to 
> absolutly stick to bike talk. So while I grasp the desire to not have to 
> self edit, by having the echo chamber sneak in as it has more recently, 
> means anyone who disagrees either has to be silent, or speak up, or leave. 
> Is that what this group wants? I am happy to leave if so. However, I am a 
> Catholic deacon and I will not longer remain silent in the face of the echo 
> chamber. Also, for the record, I have many moral issues with many of our 
> presidents. If you want to understand my politics, Catholic Social Teaching 
> is your best bet. Grin. 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick  

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread ctifusion

Everyone stop posting to this stupid thread and we all win. 

Brynnar
Radical f**king lefty
Indy

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread lambbo

Patrick Moore - are you saying H.L. Mencken is a positive force?  Surely 
there are intelligent writers who weren't racist and anti-Semitic.  

I whole-heartedly support Grant putting his opinion our there (not just 
because I agree with it).  At the same time, this whole thread has got me 
bummed out - I hate to say it but it's been a sad kind of wake-up call to 
realize that there are Trump supporters who appreciate what I 
appreciate...my little bubble of bicycles has been popped!  

I guess you take a bunch of (mostly) older (mostly) men, (some) with $20K 
worth of recreational machines, (all) who spend a lot of time on the 
internet, and you're bound to get some old-school and far-out opinions.   

I still prefer to see this forum the other way (which it also is):  take a 
bunch of people enthusiastic about a functionality, aesthetics, and 
bicycles, and exercise, smart people, some L.O.T.R. fans, put them together 
and get some really pleasing, overly in-depth reviews of really 
un-neccesary outdoor fabrics, and lovely long discussions about bikes that 
Grant won't be designing but which he 'could' :)  It makes me happy.  

Still happy to read all these things every evening.

-
A

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 9:52:30 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Joe: I like you, but your rhetoric is bumbling and more passionate than 
> intelligent, and that is true of much of what has been posted on this 
> subject. I disassociated myself from one of Richard's comments earlier, 
> because it was posted as reply to something I had posted, but I will 
> support his later attempts to bring context and clarification to his 
> assertions.
>
> Note this: I do not necessarily agree with his context and clarifications 
> -- I might indeed disagree with them; I just haven't researched the issue 
> sufficiently, and therefore I wisely keep my mouth shut on the matter. But 
> I do support his attempt to bring quality of discourse to a thread that has 
> been lamentably heavy on passion and weak on intelligence. 
>
> That is how Hitler got elected -- repeat, elected. Demagoguery succeeds by 
> making use of unintelligent high emotion. 
>
> The stupidity level of this thread is getting dangerously high. I prefer 
> H. l. Mencken.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 7:37 AM, Joe Bernard  > wrote:
>
>> I like the part where Richard acted shocked that I said Trump was 
>> abducting children, then supported the policy of abducting children. The 
>> art of doublespeak is strong with this one. Who btw is now talking on a Riv 
>> forum after renouncing Rivendells. 
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

I can tolerate some religious people.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread John A. Bennett

Thank you, Rich,

I developed the film at home, but scanned the negative to make a JPG.

Been taking a darkroom class at the local JC, but we're on a break, so no 
printing again til next week.

Looking at old enlargers on Craigslist. Inch by inch.

Thanks, again. 

John in Portland, Ore. 



 



On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 2:33:29 PM UTC-7, RichS wrote:
>
> Nice tones John. Did you make the print? I’m impressed you’re developing 
> your own film. It brings back good memories.
>
> I appreciate a well made b&w print. Back in the day I used 35mm PlusX, 
> TriX, PanatomicX. Also 4x5 and 8x10 SuperXX sheet film. It was a passion.
>
> Best regards,
> Rich 
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jul 3, 2018, at 10:50 AM, John A. Bennett  > wrote:
>
> Hey, guys. I hate to hijack the thread, but I've been shooting a lot of 
> film lately. Any other film shooters here?
>
> Last weekend was my first time using Ilford's Delta 400. The camera store 
> was out of HP5. Developed a roll from Saturday in my basement last night. 
> Seems like finer grain than HP5. Maybe more like Kodak's TMax? 
>
> I'm attaching one shot chosen at random. Thoughts?
>
> John in Portland, Ore.
>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 6:59:16 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of my "bumbling rhetoric". You're 
>> either on the right side of abducting children or evil. Your choice. 
>
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> 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Clayton.sf

brakeless fixed gears on city streets!

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Brewster Fong

No way!  If you really want a "religious war" then it's got to be 
*clinchers versus tubulars?!*  

Good Luck!

Brewster

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 2:01:32 PM UTC-7, Rod Holland wrote:
>
> Helmets next?
>
> rod
>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 4:51:49 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> Friction shifting sucks! Ok it doesn't really suck, but my old man ears 
>> can't hear when I'm between shifts anymore. Clickety clack!
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread R Shannon

Nice tones John. Did you make the print? I’m impressed you’re developing your 
own film. It brings back good memories.

I appreciate a well made b&w print. Back in the day I used 35mm PlusX, TriX, 
PanatomicX. Also 4x5 and 8x10 SuperXX sheet film. It was a passion.

Best regards,
Rich 




Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 3, 2018, at 10:50 AM, John A. Bennett  wrote:
> 
> Hey, guys. I hate to hijack the thread, but I've been shooting a lot of film 
> lately. Any other film shooters here?
> 
> Last weekend was my first time using Ilford's Delta 400. The camera store was 
> out of HP5. Developed a roll from Saturday in my basement last night. Seems 
> like finer grain than HP5. Maybe more like Kodak's TMax? 
> 
> I'm attaching one shot chosen at random. Thoughts?
> 
> John in Portland, Ore.
> 
>> On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 6:59:16 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>> I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of my "bumbling rhetoric". You're 
>> either on the right side of abducting children or evil. Your choice.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Kieran J

Ooh ooh ooh, can we do vegetarians vs. flesh-eaters next? Puuuhlease? That 
one's my super-fav! :-S

KJ


On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 1:28:44 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> As a group made up of individuals, can we all just agree to let this 
> thread die? If you just HAVE to post one more time I guess that’s ok but 
> please (pretty, pretty please) just once more. And bonus points if you can 
> make it as non-divisive as possible. 
>
> I’ll start. 
>
> Chris 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Rod Holland

Helmets next?

rod

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 4:51:49 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Friction shifting sucks! Ok it doesn't really suck, but my old man ears 
> can't hear when I'm between shifts anymore. Clickety clack!

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

Friction shifting sucks! Ok it doesn't really suck, but my old man ears can't 
hear when I'm between shifts anymore. Clickety clack!

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

I truly believe that most bike people prefer, when gazing at their 
bike(s), they prefer to gaze more on the bike's right side than its left 
side.



On 7/3/18 4:31 PM, Justin, Oakland wrote:

Uh. I like steel bikes.

Controversially yours and somewhat confused how we got here,
Justin, thread starter

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 1:28:44 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:

As a group made up of individuals, can we all just agree to let
this thread die? If you just HAVE to post one more time I guess
that’s ok but please (pretty, pretty please) just once more. And
bonus points if you can make it as non-divisive as possible.

I’ll start.

Chris 


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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Justin, Oakland

Uh. I like steel bikes.

Controversially yours and somewhat confused how we got here,
Justin, thread starter

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 1:28:44 PM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> As a group made up of individuals, can we all just agree to let this 
> thread die? If you just HAVE to post one more time I guess that’s ok but 
> please (pretty, pretty please) just once more. And bonus points if you can 
> make it as non-divisive as possible. 
>
> I’ll start. 
>
> Chris 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Christopher Murray

As a group made up of individuals, can we all just agree to let this thread 
die? If you just HAVE to post one more time I guess that’s ok but please 
(pretty, pretty please) just once more. And bonus points if you can make it as 
non-divisive as possible. 

I’ll start. 

Chris 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Chris Birkenmaier

Steve mentioned a moderator stepping in. Doesn’t seem like that is going to 
happen. Since there has only been polite discussion with no name calling in 
this thread..,

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

My disagreement is with government abduction of children. Period. Bringing 
abortion into what was a dead discussion until some asshole revived it is 
severely out of line. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

What do we want this group to be? Grant laments having to edit himself too 
much, yet that is exactly what those here who disagree with “lefties” are often 
asked to silently do.

I’m not sure the “lefties,” as Grant self-described, realize how much of the 
lefty echo chamber gets unwittingly expressed in various ways on this group nor 
do they realize the choice it presents with folks who disagree. In part this is 
because they think such conclusions are commonplace across they country and in 
human thought and understanding. Sometimes (as evidenced in this thread), this 
is paired with the judgement that anyone who disagrees (or expresses nuanced 
agreement) is backward, inhuman, primative, ignorant, or worse. I generally let 
them slide. To suggest I’ve finally turned a conversation to what I want to 
talk about is incorrect. Over the years, various references to the code 
languague of the left have been used (both by Grant in writings and by others 
on this group), such as “women’s reproductive rights,” or “free to love 
whomever they choose,” or other positions that inherantly go against my 
understanding of human dignity. once understood what they stand for.

The above is one of the reasons I “went there.” If not everyone can agree with 
science that a human egg fertalized by a human sperm is both human and alive 
and thus logically has human rights, including to life, we need to absolutly 
stick to bike talk. So while I grasp the desire to not have to self edit, by 
having the echo chamber sneak in as it has more recently, means anyone who 
disagrees either has to be silent, or speak up, or leave. Is that what this 
group wants? I am happy to leave if so. However, I am a Catholic deacon and I 
will not longer remain silent in the face of the echo chamber. Also, for the 
record, I have many moral issues with many of our presidents. If you want to 
understand my politics, Catholic Social Teaching is your best bet. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick  

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Grant Petersen

I second the let's not let this one become one of those ones (and of
course, Just Riding)...
I don't want "Grant's Blahg" to become the thing that people read to get
riled, but I also don't want to have to edit myself too much. I'm a lefty,
and that won't always come across strongly because most of the time it'll
still be about bikes.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Uhh, let's not do abortion here, kids. It's not even remotely related to
> the Blahg topic, and it's time to go ride our bikes. JUST RIDE.
>
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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Ryan M.

I like a little extra grain in a lot of street and festival shots but find 
HP5 a bit flat; I think Delta 400 helps with that. Frankly, I'm more of a 
TriX guy myself. 

I've been shooting a ton of Portra 400 out of a few Pentax K2 cameras 
lately. 

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 9:50:03 AM UTC-5, John A. Bennett wrote:

> Hey, guys. I hate to hijack the thread, but I've been shooting a lot of 
> film lately. Any other film shooters here?
>
> Last weekend was my first time using Ilford's Delta 400. The camera store 
> was out of HP5. Developed a roll from Saturday in my basement last night. 
> Seems like finer grain than HP5. Maybe more like Kodak's TMax? 
>
> I'm attaching one shot chosen at random. Thoughts?
>
> John in Portland, Ore.
>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 6:59:16 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of my "bumbling rhetoric". You're 
>> either on the right side of abducting children or evil. Your choice. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Justin, Oakland

Wow. 

I guess I’d rather know than not know but wow. 

-J

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

The evidence is only apparent to you. Nice work shifting the topic to 
something you DO want to talk about, after decrying the off-topic-ness of 
the on-topic discussion. 

To reiterate my own thoughts: Hey, thanks Grant, for speaking up for 
decency and morality. It is unconscionable for us as a moral and empathetic 
people to have a policy to purposely separate kids from their parents in 
order to terrify other people into staying away, or supposedly pressure 
politicians to enact policy changes.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 11:51:57 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Protecting the human rights of invisible and powerless people is a huge 
> challenge and oddly threatens a lot of people, as evidenced throughout this 
> thread.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Ryan Merrill

Man, would you quit trolling this thread and don’t speak for the American 
people. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Protecting the human rights of invisible and powerless people is a huge 
challenge and oddly threatens a lot of people, as evidenced throughout this 
thread.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

This thing was done June 24th, which was shortly after the stupid insane policy 
was rescinded. But troll. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Steve Palincsar


It is long past time for the moderator to have stepped in, in my opinion.


On 07/03/2018 02:02 PM, sameness wrote:
Dear all, please please please don't let /this/ forum become one of 
/those/ forums.


Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA



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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

Uhh, let's not do abortion here, kids. It's not even remotely related to the 
Blahg topic, and it's time to go ride our bikes. JUST RIDE. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

So "abortion?" Consider supporting women's health services and reproductive 
education worldwide.
Seems like scope creep on this thread, and I feel the backhanded shot was 
unnecessary. Furthermore, many many many people are very exercised about 
this issue. 


Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 11:14:06 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Philip asked, “Do you have examples of Americans in general being PRO 
> removing some other kinds of children by force from their mothers?” 
>
> Sadly, plenty of examples. Millions per year, worldwide. The people in 
> support of this practice do not yet recognize them as human, so no human 
> rights. It too is legal and evil. 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Philip asked, “Do you have examples of Americans in general being PRO removing 
some other kinds of children by force from their mothers?”

Sadly, plenty of examples. Millions per year, worldwide. The people in support 
of this practice do not yet recognize them as human, so no human rights. It too 
is legal and evil. 

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread sameness

Dear all, please please please don't let *this* forum become one of *those* 
forums.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

Grins and bollocks. Which would be the name of my first album if I made an 
album. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Dave, I think the criticism that I failed to acknowledge something in anything 
I wrote could always be asserted and defended, if not particularly helpful. 
Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch

This administraion is breaking laws about asylum, and damaging lives in 
their breaking of laws.


I'm saying that when the government breaks laws that apply to it, that 
causes grave problems in all of our society -- citizens, immigrants, 
asylum seekers, and the children, grandchildren and other decendants of 
earlier immigrants.


And Patrick, I probably am not trying to convince you of anything. But 
your writing about a "sacrosanct building block of society" and a 
nation's rights fails to acknowlege this official law-breaking.



On 7/3/18 12:15 PM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Dave, I’m confused by your response, which sounds like you disagree with me and 
are trying to convince me of something. My primary point was how broken the 
immigration system and border enforcement are. If I am reading you correctly, 
we agree the immigration system and border are very broken and in grave need of 
being repairs so they uphold human dignity.

With abandon,
Patrick



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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

It actually does look more like TMax than HP5. :)

Eamon

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 7:50:03 AM UTC-7, John A. Bennett wrote:
>
> Hey, guys. I hate to hijack the thread, but I've been shooting a lot of 
> film lately. Any other film shooters here?
>
> Last weekend was my first time using Ilford's Delta 400. The camera store 
> was out of HP5. Developed a roll from Saturday in my basement last night. 
> Seems like finer grain than HP5. Maybe more like Kodak's TMax? 
>
> I'm attaching one shot chosen at random. Thoughts?
>
> John in Portland, Ore.
>
> On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 6:59:16 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>> I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of my "bumbling rhetoric". You're 
>> either on the right side of abducting children or evil. Your choice. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant


Way too much grain.

And certain parts of the picture are severely under-developed.


On 7/3/18 10:50 AM, John A. Bennett wrote:
Hey, guys. I hate to hijack the thread, but I've been shooting a lot 
of film lately. Any other film shooters here?


Last weekend was my first time using Ilford's Delta 400. The camera 
store was out of HP5. Developed a roll from Saturday in my basement 
last night. Seems like finer grain than HP5. Maybe more like Kodak's 
TMax?


I'm attaching one shot chosen at random. Thoughts?

John in Portland, Ore.

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 6:59:16 AM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:

I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of my "bumbling rhetoric".
You're either on the right side of abducting children or evil.
Your choice. 


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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Dave, I’m confused by your response, which sounds like you disagree with me and 
are trying to convince me of something. My primary point was how broken the 
immigration system and border enforcement are. If I am reading you correctly, 
we agree the immigration system and border are very broken and in grave need of 
being repairs so they uphold human dignity.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch

John A. Bennett wins the day! Oh, also..."whatever you did not do to the least 
of these, you did not do for me." If I were a righteous person and supported 
the Racist in Chief, I might be looking over my shoulder.

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

Whatever could you mean? 
Do you have examples of Joe, or the people on this list, or Americans in 
general being PRO removing some other kinds of children by force from their 
mothers? 

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 8:55:09 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Joe said: “You don't take children from mothers and put them in camps.” 
>
> Agreed. If only we so passionately defended the rights of all children to 
> not be removed by force from their mothers. 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

However, a nation does NOT have the right to break its own laws by 
eliminating many of the immigration-check-in places before the border, 
where individuals and families and families coming to the United States 
of America for asylum are legally allowed to go. Federal law and 
international treaties mandate that the administration consider the 
requests of asylum applicants. It is perfectly legal to come to the 
United States without papers and request asylum. International law 
prohibits the US government from turning away people with legitimate 
humanitarian claims or from sending them back to countries where their 
lives are in danger.


Instead, without the pre-border checkpoints, these individuals and 
families are forced to present themselves to ask for asylum only by 
first crossing the border -- and then they're arrested.


This is a form of bait-and-switch. Think about it. Requesting asylum is 
legal, but the current forces in power have made the legal impossible by 
forcing the people to cross the border before making that request.


Logic and reason say that a "sacrosanct building block of society" is 
for the government to follow its own laws. This government does not, at 
least in this instance. This government, therefore, by breaking the law 
contributes to anarchy.


Dave, who hopes that he and you never have to ask for asylum anywhere or 
become a refugee but just imagine if you and your family had to request 
asylum and how would you want to be treated and please don't say that 
you and your family will NEVER EVER have to request asylum because you 
never ever know



On 7/3/18 10:58 AM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:

Joe, I love your passion, but I believe there is more challenge and nuance here 
than you realize and it seems at best disingenuious to put all blame on Trump 
(whatever else a person may think of him) when our immigration laws and border 
have been broken since at least the Reagan era (who granted a path to 
citizenship for illegal immigrants at the time as an attempt to make things 
right and prompt Congress to get its act together).

— Family is the sacrosanct building block of society and parents have 
fundimental rights that no one can take away and the State should alwasy strive 
to uphold these. Among these rights are the rights to be with and educate their 
children.
— A nation has a right and responsibility to have defined borders and control 
them.
— A nation has a right to define what the legal path to citizenship is and a 
responsibility to provide a legal path to citizenship. I believe we have done 
this poorly and I also believe it is on the Congresses of the last four decades 
that we have not upheld human dignity with just immigration laws.
— This in no way justifies it, but I believe children have been seperated from 
the adults accompanying them at the border in very specific circumstances under 
at least the last four presidents, possibly back to Clinton. Why? My take is it 
is an imperfect and bungled attempt to address the challenging situation of 
adults using children for their own benifit in various ways. I don’t know how 
frequent these circumstances are, or how many actualy families have been 
separated, but the fact that four presidents chose the same thing, and 
increased it in some cases, tells me there is something else, of a grave 
nature, going on.
— Trump took action to stop separation of families at the border via executive 
order, using it to attempt to get Congress to pass more just laws. He is 
attempting to get done what the previous four (+?) presidends could not — get 
Congress to address immigration and border issues (you can’t solve one without 
solving the other). So far Congress has balked, on both sides.
— Enflamed rhetoric is verbal violence. Violence in all forms always escalates 
and harms and never heals.
— Logic and reason have stopped being taught in schools for the most part and 
it shows. We are becoming a Facebook nation in how we communicate, with no 
better skills at dialogue, logic, and reason than happen on college dormroom 
door whiteboards.

With abandon,
Patrick



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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Joe said: “You don't take children from mothers and put them in camps.”

Agreed. If only we so passionately defended the rights of all children to not 
be removed by force from their mothers.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

Hitler wasn't elected, he was appointed. 


Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 6:52:30 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Joe: I like you, but your rhetoric is bumbling and more passionate than 
> intelligent, and that is true of much of what has been posted on this 
> subject. I disassociated myself from one of Richard's comments earlier, 
> because it was posted as reply to something I had posted, but I will 
> support his later attempts to bring context and clarification to his 
> assertions.
>
> Note this: I do not necessarily agree with his context and clarifications 
> -- I might indeed disagree with them; I just haven't researched the issue 
> sufficiently, and therefore I wisely keep my mouth shut on the matter. But 
> I do support his attempt to bring quality of discourse to a thread that has 
> been lamentably heavy on passion and weak on intelligence. 
>
> That is how Hitler got elected -- repeat, elected. Demagoguery succeeds by 
> making use of unintelligent high emotion. 
>
> The stupidity level of this thread is getting dangerously high. I prefer 
> H. l. Mencken.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 7:37 AM, Joe Bernard  > wrote:
>
>> I like the part where Richard acted shocked that I said Trump was 
>> abducting children, then supported the policy of abducting children. The 
>> art of doublespeak is strong with this one. Who btw is now talking on a Riv 
>> forum after renouncing Rivendells. 
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

The trend with this topic is "golly abducting children is bad, but po president 
has to enforce the laws and whatnot so whaddyagonnado womp womp build the 
wall." It's crap. You don't take children from mothers and put them in camps. 
It's been done. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

That's bollocks. The topic isn't immigration in general, it's the government 
abducting children and putting them in camps. That's what Grant discussed on 
the Blahg, that's what I'm discussing here. It's not what a civil, moral 
society does. It's evil. Have a nice day. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Please accept my apologies, Joe. I realized my response singles you out and 
that was not my intention — my response is to the whole group, not just you.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch

Joe, I love your passion, but I believe there is more challenge and nuance here 
than you realize and it seems at best disingenuious to put all blame on Trump 
(whatever else a person may think of him) when our immigration laws and border 
have been broken since at least the Reagan era (who granted a path to 
citizenship for illegal immigrants at the time as an attempt to make things 
right and prompt Congress to get its act together).

— Family is the sacrosanct building block of society and parents have 
fundimental rights that no one can take away and the State should alwasy strive 
to uphold these. Among these rights are the rights to be with and educate their 
children.
— A nation has a right and responsibility to have defined borders and control 
them.
— A nation has a right to define what the legal path to citizenship is and a 
responsibility to provide a legal path to citizenship. I believe we have done 
this poorly and I also believe it is on the Congresses of the last four decades 
that we have not upheld human dignity with just immigration laws.
— This in no way justifies it, but I believe children have been seperated from 
the adults accompanying them at the border in very specific circumstances under 
at least the last four presidents, possibly back to Clinton. Why? My take is it 
is an imperfect and bungled attempt to address the challenging situation of 
adults using children for their own benifit in various ways. I don’t know how 
frequent these circumstances are, or how many actualy families have been 
separated, but the fact that four presidents chose the same thing, and 
increased it in some cases, tells me there is something else, of a grave 
nature, going on. 
— Trump took action to stop separation of families at the border via executive 
order, using it to attempt to get Congress to pass more just laws. He is 
attempting to get done what the previous four (+?) presidends could not — get 
Congress to address immigration and border issues (you can’t solve one without 
solving the other). So far Congress has balked, on both sides.
— Enflamed rhetoric is verbal violence. Violence in all forms always escalates 
and harms and never heals.
— Logic and reason have stopped being taught in schools for the most part and 
it shows. We are becoming a Facebook nation in how we communicate, with no 
better skills at dialogue, logic, and reason than happen on college dormroom 
door whiteboards.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

I don't give a damn what anybody thinks of my "bumbling rhetoric". You're 
either on the right side of abducting children or evil. Your choice. 

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant

2018-07-03 Thread Patrick Moore

Joe: I like you, but your rhetoric is bumbling and more passionate than
intelligent, and that is true of much of what has been posted on this
subject. I disassociated myself from one of Richard's comments earlier,
because it was posted as reply to something I had posted, but I will
support his later attempts to bring context and clarification to his
assertions.

Note this: I do not necessarily agree with his context and clarifications
-- I might indeed disagree with them; I just haven't researched the issue
sufficiently, and therefore I wisely keep my mouth shut on the matter. But
I do support his attempt to bring quality of discourse to a thread that has
been lamentably heavy on passion and weak on intelligence.

That is how Hitler got elected -- repeat, elected. Demagoguery succeeds by
making use of unintelligent high emotion.

The stupidity level of this thread is getting dangerously high. I prefer H.
l. Mencken.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 7:37 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I like the part where Richard acted shocked that I said Trump was
> abducting children, then supported the policy of abducting children. The
> art of doublespeak is strong with this one. Who btw is now talking on a Riv
> forum after renouncing Rivendells.
>

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Re: [RBW] Thanks Grant