Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
As someone who a bit over a year ago was returning to the cycling world after over a decade away, I was aware of how poor fit was. I'd tried to be fit at an LBS. Failure. Then I bumbled into Grant's site and was blown away by the simplicity and confidence. One measurement and we will fit you. Period. In talking with him, he also suggested I go up a size for my Hunqa. Glad I did. Most comfortable bike I've ever ridden, and that includes the recumbent Greenspeed I rode for a few years. With abandon, Patrick On Sunday, April 14, 2013 9:06:27 PM UTC-6, hsmitham wrote: First as it seems often as soon as I post a reply to a topic such as this with many posts it will soon be over! So for those that are over this topic heere we go! Mike wish that sticker was a button, I' d pin em every where, everyone else, bike fit is important but not the expensive variety. I've had the expensive fit system, so has my Brother and I can assure you that it did not get us much further along then we would have gotten had we just did some thinking about the feedback we got from our bodies. I went with a Hilsen and at Riv's suggestion went up in size. No neck pain or back pain! I am still dialing in seat height but I'm close. It always seem interesting to me how we get caught up in figuring that an expensive computer fit system will some how be the end all, if someone is charging that much then it's gotta work better! My experience is to the contrary. Hope you all have good pain free riding. Hugh Sunland, CA On Friday, April 12, 2013 7:51:03 AM UTC-7, Mike wrote: In the words of Stevil, one of my favorite blogging cyclist, My 100% not giving a s$t beats your 8% faster. Get the sticker here: http://market.allhailtheblackmarket.com/market/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=2products_id=79 --mike -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
First as it seems often as soon as I post a reply to a topic such as this with many posts it will soon be over! So for those that are over this topic heere we go! Mike wish that sticker was a button, I' d pin em every where, everyone else, bike fit is important but not the expensive variety. I've had the expensive fit system, so has my Brother and I can assure you that it did not get us much further along then we would have gotten had we just did some thinking about the feedback we got from our bodies. I went with a Hilsen and at Riv's suggestion went up in size. No neck pain or back pain! I am still dialing in seat height but I'm close. It always seem interesting to me how we get caught up in figuring that an expensive computer fit system will some how be the end all, if someone is charging that much then it's gotta work better! My experience is to the contrary. Hope you all have good pain free riding. Hugh Sunland, CA On Friday, April 12, 2013 7:51:03 AM UTC-7, Mike wrote: In the words of Stevil, one of my favorite blogging cyclist, My 100% not giving a s$t beats your 8% faster. Get the sticker here: http://market.allhailtheblackmarket.com/market/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=2products_id=79 --mike -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I wonder what people did back around 1900 for fitting? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
What do all those daily cyclists do in third world countries for bike fit? I am sure they aren't paying $250-450US for their fits. And they probably have alot of us in the dust mileage-wise. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Michael john11.2...@gmail.com wrote: What do all those daily cyclists do in third world countries for bike fit? I am sure they aren't paying $250-450US for their fits. And they probably have alot of us in the dust mileage-wise. And, from my experience, they do that very often riding very ill fitting bikes! -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com __ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I was confused here , as SunTour HAS been around , I've seen their stuff online since the 2000's. from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SunTour In late 1989, Mori Industries Inc., a Japanese steel fabrication company, bought Sakae Ringyo Ltd., which made handlebars, cranksets, pedals, and seatposts. In mid-1990, Mori bought Maeda SunTour. By 1993, SunTour's share of the market had dropped to five per cent of the U.S. market. At the end of 1994, Mori decided to shut down their bicycle component business. In March 1995 Daisuke Kobayashi and Hideo Hashizume, the former owners of SR Sakae Ringyo, arranged a management buyout. The new management took over in July, 1995, purchasing the SunTour name and the SR factory in Taiwan. Mori Industries left the bicycle component business, selling off SunTour's Japanese facilities piecemeal. SR SunTour USA closed its U.S. offices in early 1995. The SunTour name lived on as SR Suntour, but the SunTour component designs did not survive. The tooling that produced the once-prized Suntour derailleurs, shifters, and associated bicycle components was sold for scrap. So this New Suntour is just as the article linked to about SunXCD, and it appears to be the Good STUFF I'm interested in the Hubs for sure !!! The cranks if done with precision the removable adapters will be great ... if not ...not !!! Wobble wobble . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
Since you asked: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=353135998090454set=a.127038134033576.21586.11821707336type=3theater Nick W. On Saturday, April 13, 2013 11:36:37 AM UTC-7, Michael wrote: I wonder what people did back around 1900 for fitting? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
Wow! Cool pic. Where'd you get it? That looks like a really short reach there. Saddle 3 behind bb and bars 1 below saddle. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 19:59 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Any fit based on measurements, whether with a tape measure or a body scanner with laser beams, is merely a starting point, since no two humans are alike. But the market for this kind of service is the elite cyclist. By elite, I mean spends a fortune. If one of these dudes is buying a $15k bike, and wears $2k worth of clothing to ride it, then why not have a status symbol fit? It's not about the status. Shops that provide these services are telling people they'll get as much as a 10% improvement in their power and speed as a result of better fit. Not sure about that number, but in the case of one of my riding pals who recently got such a fit as part of getting a new custom Seven, she easily improved at least that much. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
On Fri, 2013-04-12 at 05:27 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Nobody disagrees that having good ergonomics can improve performance. But is there a meaningful difference between the fit achieved by making measurements in a low tech way, and the fit achieved by laser-guided body scans? My BS-meter says the high-tech solution is no better than older, less glitzy methods. Maybe more repeatable? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
Indeed. My Kellogg / Spectrum 30th Anniversary is definitely the most comfortable bike I have owned. Tom Kellogg (who has a long standing relationship with Seven and consults with them on fit and materials questions) uses a crusty old Serotta stationary bike and a face to face interview to come up with the fit. I am very skeptical of precise claims such as '10% improvement in speed and efficiency'. Mindset plays a significant role in anything human's do, including riding a bike. Unless the laser fit people can craft a robot that exactly matches the human body for a before and after test, how can they say what part of improved output relates to the rider being happy with a new bike versus what part is actually related to the new bike itself. On Friday, April 12, 2013 7:27:39 AM UTC-5, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Nobody disagrees that having good ergonomics can improve performance. But is there a meaningful difference between the fit achieved by making measurements in a low tech way, and the fit achieved by laser-guided body scans? My BS-meter says the high-tech solution is no better than older, less glitzy methods. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I will be upfront and totally honest on this one. I used to work part time for Roll: and even more honest, that's me in the green shirt on their webpage (from years ago) http://roll-online.com/articles/roll-perfect-fit-pg154.htm Not being 100% sure on how the computer was programmed, but I will tell you that it does work for most people. In addition to the body mapping there is also a questionnaire to determine things like the type of bicycle and the type of riding and the customers expectations. Then the computer (and the fitter) scans the legs, hips, arms, shoulders and another point I can't recall. What's nice is that it prints out numbers for frame size, handlebar reach/height and saddle height. Making setting the bikes up for customers to ride very very easy. I could scan someone, set a bike up for them and then while they were test riding, set up another bike or two. Was it perfect, no. But really very close. Was it needed, no. But much better for the customer than jamming a tape measure up their crotch. Could I fit a customer without it, absolutely. Been doing it for years. Its nice in that its not just for elite or high end bikes and worked equally well on a $250 flat foot hybrid. For a Rivendell type or custom customer I think it would still be a good start in addition to the builders own fit instructions. Admit it, many on this list are not the typical cyclist. We get a little picky about our bikes and fits. For putting a cyclist on a standard store bought bicycle, it was really hard to beat the Roll: method. Cheers, Scott in Dayton, OH On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:37 PM, George Schick bhim...@gmail.com wrote: Saw this on the news tonight about a new machine at an LBS. We all agree that good bike sizing is important to comfortable riding, but is it necessary to go beyond inseam height and a few other basic manual measurements? http://wgntv.com/2013/04/11/roll-new-bicycle-shop-uses-3d-body-scanner-to-get-you-fitted/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I will be upfront and totally honest on this one. So every other post of yours without this pronouncement is less than upfront and honest? Grin. With abandon, Patrick On Friday, April 12, 2013 6:47:24 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote: I will be upfront and totally honest on this one. I used to work part time for Roll: and even more honest, that's me in the green shirt on their webpage (from years ago) http://roll-online.com/articles/roll-perfect-fit-pg154.htm Not being 100% sure on how the computer was programmed, but I will tell you that it does work for most people. In addition to the body mapping there is also a questionnaire to determine things like the type of bicycle and the type of riding and the customers expectations. Then the computer (and the fitter) scans the legs, hips, arms, shoulders and another point I can't recall. What's nice is that it prints out numbers for frame size, handlebar reach/height and saddle height. Making setting the bikes up for customers to ride very very easy. I could scan someone, set a bike up for them and then while they were test riding, set up another bike or two. Was it perfect, no. But really very close. Was it needed, no. But much better for the customer than jamming a tape measure up their crotch. Could I fit a customer without it, absolutely. Been doing it for years. Its nice in that its not just for elite or high end bikes and worked equally well on a $250 flat foot hybrid. For a Rivendell type or custom customer I think it would still be a good start in addition to the builders own fit instructions. Admit it, many on this list are not the typical cyclist. We get a little picky about our bikes and fits. For putting a cyclist on a standard store bought bicycle, it was really hard to beat the Roll: method. Cheers, Scott in Dayton, OH On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 8:37 PM, George Schick bhi...@gmail.comjavascript: wrote: Saw this on the news tonight about a new machine at an LBS. We all agree that good bike sizing is important to comfortable riding, but is it necessary to go beyond inseam height and a few other basic manual measurements? http://wgntv.com/2013/04/11/roll-new-bicycle-shop-uses-3d-body-scanner-to-get-you-fitted/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.comjavascript: . Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
Yep ... bike fit and feel is entirely subjective. There is just no formulas for the nuances of the human mind .. and we sure as heck are not human machines , so please ... don't treat them as such !! I had a fitting once for a custom frame on a adjustable bike with some sort of computer model the shop used. The machine's formula gave the same silly dimensions for the bike that every stock bike was already made from !! Duh !!I said forget it buddy, it's my way, my dimensions the way I want it, or No Sale !! After all .. this was for a CUSTOM frame !!! ahahaha !! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote: Yep ... bike fit and feel is entirely subjective. Is that true? Then lower (or raise) your saddle by 3, move it forward (or back) by 2, think some powerfully good thoughts, and ride: if it all is subjective -- by which you mean in your mind -- then the bike should feel and work as well as it did before. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I've gotten pretty good over the years at sizing people up by just looking at them and using intuition/experience. Even when I worked at a bigger shop where we charged a steep fee for a seemingly sophisticated black-box fitting, much of the time changes to saddle position or stem length were warranted after the customer had ridden the bike a bit in the real world. Several years ago, I jokingly mentioned on a local forum that I offer a complaint-based fitting system. Tell me your complaint, and I'll suggest a way to address it! I actually got a couple customers from that - but what they needed wasn't a fitting, but a bike that was the right size. Most of the fit problems are large (wrong bike, wrong size, etc), not subtle. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
Local-to-Jim-and-I bike builder Chris Kvale checks rider fit by going on a bike ride with the customer to get an idea of riding style, position issues, etc. The problem with bike fitting by measuring body parts is that bike fit is a dynamic rather than static thing. On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Matthew J matthewj...@gmail.com wrote: Indeed. My Kellogg / Spectrum 30th Anniversary is definitely the most comfortable bike I have owned. Tom Kellogg (who has a long standing relationship with Seven and consults with them on fit and materials questions) uses a crusty old Serotta stationary bike and a face to face interview to come up with the fit. I am very skeptical of precise claims such as '10% improvement in speed and efficiency'. Mindset plays a significant role in anything human's do, including riding a bike. Unless the laser fit people can craft a robot that exactly matches the human body for a before and after test, how can they say what part of improved output relates to the rider being happy with a new bike versus what part is actually related to the new bike itself. On Friday, April 12, 2013 7:27:39 AM UTC-5, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Nobody disagrees that having good ergonomics can improve performance. But is there a meaningful difference between the fit achieved by making measurements in a low tech way, and the fit achieved by laser-guided body scans? My BS-meter says the high-tech solution is no better than older, less glitzy methods. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
While I have never had a fitting done the dynamic v static theme seems accurate. I have ridden the same bike on the road and on the trainer at home and the feel is totally different. On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Tim McNamara tim...@bitstream.net wrote: Local-to-Jim-and-I bike builder Chris Kvale checks rider fit by going on a bike ride with the customer to get an idea of riding style, position issues, etc. The problem with bike fitting by measuring body parts is that bike fit is a dynamic rather than static thing. On Apr 12, 2013, at 7:47 AM, Matthew J matthewj...@gmail.com wrote: Indeed. My Kellogg / Spectrum 30th Anniversary is definitely the most comfortable bike I have owned. Tom Kellogg (who has a long standing relationship with Seven and consults with them on fit and materials questions) uses a crusty old Serotta stationary bike and a face to face interview to come up with the fit. I am very skeptical of precise claims such as '10% improvement in speed and efficiency'. Mindset plays a significant role in anything human's do, including riding a bike. Unless the laser fit people can craft a robot that exactly matches the human body for a before and after test, how can they say what part of improved output relates to the rider being happy with a new bike versus what part is actually related to the new bike itself. On Friday, April 12, 2013 7:27:39 AM UTC-5, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Nobody disagrees that having good ergonomics can improve performance. But is there a meaningful difference between the fit achieved by making measurements in a low tech way, and the fit achieved by laser-guided body scans? My BS-meter says the high-tech solution is no better than older, less glitzy methods. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
On Fri, 2013-04-12 at 06:24 -0700, Garth wrote: Yep ... bike fit and feel is entirely subjective. There is just no formulas for the nuances of the human mind .. and we sure as heck are not human machines , so please ... don't treat them as such !! I'm with Patrick on this: it's definitely not all in your head. There's physical stuff involved, too. Best intentions in the world won't make a size 38 shoe fit a size 48 foot. I had a fitting once for a custom frame on a adjustable bike with some sort of computer model the shop used. The machine's formula gave the same silly dimensions for the bike that every stock bike was already made from !! Duh !!I said forget it buddy, it's my way, my dimensions the way I want it, or No Sale !! After all .. this was for a CUSTOM frame !!! ahahaha !! Up to a point, sure. Any builder who wants to keep his reputation will not build something thoroughly wrong-headed and stupid just because some bone-headed customer asks for it. It's their name on the downtube, after all. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
It is a mental game, for sure. I don't believe anybody when they tell me their bike is comfortable. Is it really? Compared to what? I can't count the times a customer on a horrible fitting bike tells me his/her bike fits well. I say, ok, try this, and pull out a stock bike that's at least close to the right size. Usually, the experience of that test ride is revelatory. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
How one FEELS on a bike , is Entirely subjective !Since the days of following bike racing as a kid I recall the lamenting over certain riders, Sean Kelley comes to mind. The bike fit experts said his seat was way too low, he was too scrunched ... etc. etc. Yet it worked for HIM !! That is what I mean. It's mind AND body working in unison , to which there simply is no wonderformula . What looks bad to one standard seen from without, Works from within. But there is a large range of which one can ride and ride well. When one is in tune to themselves , there is no stopping them. I recall a TDF a few years ago when Jens Voigt crashed in a stage, he had no team car around, so he grabbed a KIDS bike from the crowd and kept going until the team car could find him . Now , this is short term of course but I bet if he had to finish a stage with it, he would still be just fine :) People are finicky about bike fit, because they are in a finicky state of mind . Examine their lives and you'll see it's not just bikes they are finicky about . Some of most fun rides I had as a teen was on a bike that was about 3-4 inches less long and shorter in bar height !! On Friday, April 12, 2013 9:31:48 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript:wrote: Yep ... bike fit and feel is entirely subjective. Is that true? Then lower (or raise) your saddle by 3, move it forward (or back) by 2, think some powerfully good thoughts, and ride: if it all is subjective -- by which you mean in your mind -- then the bike should feel and work as well as it did before. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
Hey, Jim. Let me know when your Roll Body Scanner comes in at HC. I'd like to schedule an appointment to better dial in the Ogre. Thanks! Shaun On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote: How one FEELS on a bike , is Entirely subjective !Since the days of following bike racing as a kid I recall the lamenting over certain riders, Sean Kelley comes to mind. The bike fit experts said his seat was way too low, he was too scrunched ... etc. etc. Yet it worked for HIM !! That is what I mean. It's mind AND body working in unison , to which there simply is no wonderformula . What looks bad to one standard seen from without, Works from within. But there is a large range of which one can ride and ride well. When one is in tune to themselves , there is no stopping them. I recall a TDF a few years ago when Jens Voigt crashed in a stage, he had no team car around, so he grabbed a KIDS bike from the crowd and kept going until the team car could find him . Now , this is short term of course but I bet if he had to finish a stage with it, he would still be just fine :) People are finicky about bike fit, because they are in a finicky state of mind . Examine their lives and you'll see it's not just bikes they are finicky about . Some of most fun rides I had as a teen was on a bike that was about 3-4 inches less long and shorter in bar height !! On Friday, April 12, 2013 9:31:48 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com wrote: Yep ... bike fit and feel is entirely subjective. Is that true? Then lower (or raise) your saddle by 3, move it forward (or back) by 2, think some powerfully good thoughts, and ride: if it all is subjective -- by which you mean in your mind -- then the bike should feel and work as well as it did before. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
This makes more sense -- I generally agree. But I would insist that the object an subject aspects go hand in hand without either one being negligible. After all, what we feel is due to what is out there -- in this case, how our bikes are set up. I bet Voigt was cursing a blue streak as he pedaled away on the kid's bike. Segway: One salient quality of 4/5 Rivs I've owned is how easy they are to set up (for my preferences, obviously) and how right they feel without a lot of tweaking -- the Ram being the latest case in point. But this is due, I assume, largely to the identical or very close geometries of these four, notable the angles and the top tube length. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyrfithMEb8 On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote: How one FEELS on a bike , is Entirely subjective !Since the days of following bike racing as a kid I recall the lamenting over certain riders, Sean Kelley comes to mind. The bike fit experts said his seat was way too low, he was too scrunched ... etc. etc. Yet it worked for HIM !! That is what I mean. It's mind AND body working in unison , to which there simply is no wonderformula . What looks bad to one standard seen from without, Works from within. But there is a large range of which one can ride and ride well. When one is in tune to themselves , there is no stopping them. I recall a TDF a few years ago when Jens Voigt crashed in a stage, he had no team car around, so he grabbed a KIDS bike from the crowd and kept going until the team car could find him . Now , this is short term of course but I bet if he had to finish a stage with it, he would still be just fine :) People are finicky about bike fit, because they are in a finicky state of mind . Examine their lives and you'll see it's not just bikes they are finicky about . Some of most fun rides I had as a teen was on a bike that was about 3-4 inches less long and shorter in bar height !! On Friday, April 12, 2013 9:31:48 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 7:24 AM, Garth gart...@gmail.com wrote: Yep ... bike fit and feel is entirely subjective. Is that true? Then lower (or raise) your saddle by 3, move it forward (or back) by 2, think some powerfully good thoughts, and ride: if it all is subjective -- by which you mean in your mind -- then the bike should feel and work as well as it did before. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- http://resumespecialties.com/index.html patrickmo...@resumespecialties.com __ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
On Fri, 2013-04-12 at 07:13 -0700, Garth wrote: How one FEELS on a bike , is Entirely subjective !Since the days of following bike racing as a kid I recall the lamenting over certain riders, Sean Kelley comes to mind. The bike fit experts said his seat was way too low, he was too scrunched ... etc. etc. Yet it worked for HIM !! That is what I mean. It's mind AND body working in unison , to which there simply is no wonderformula . What looks bad to one standard seen from without, Works from within. But there is a large range of which one can ride and ride well. When one is in tune to themselves , there is no stopping them. I recall a TDF a few years ago when Jens Voigt crashed in a stage, he had no team car around, so he grabbed a KIDS bike from the crowd and kept going until the team car could find him . Now , this is short term of course but I bet if he had to finish a stage with it, he would still be just fine :) People are finicky about bike fit, because they are in a finicky state of mind . Examine their lives and you'll see it's not just bikes they are finicky about . I'm finicky about fit because I'm very prone to ulnar nerve palsy and wrist and thumb tendinitis if the bar and saddle aren't just right. Also, too low a bar can very quickly give me a lot of neck pain because I've got osteoarthritis issues there. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I LOVED that movie Patrick Aahahahahaahah ! It IS a MAd Mad MAD MAD World Inded ! http://youtu.be/GiNrMy0nxWw?t=42s On Friday, April 12, 2013 10:19:51 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I recently received a sale catalog from a local bike chain. I found it interesting that nearly every bike description in there mentioned comfort... from $300 upright hybrids to $10,000 low-bar'd road bikes. They even have some bikes supposedly built for the BORAF that don't sacrifice comfort. I'm pretty sure no amount of adjustment on a lot of the bikes in that catalog could come close to the comfort of my Homer. I think it's hard to go wrong as long as you start with a frame that suits your style and is appropriately sized. I ride my kid's bikes (16-inch wheeled BMX bikes) from time to time... rideable but definitely not comfortable. As an experiment... let's all bring our most ill or properly fitting bikes to the PSU Farmer's Market in downtown Portland and ride with Manny this Saturday. We can try each other's bikes and see what works and what doesn't. Maybe it'll be an eye opener for some of us. --Smitty On Friday, April 12, 2013 4:55:23 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: On Thu, 2013-04-11 at 19:59 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Any fit based on measurements, whether with a tape measure or a body scanner with laser beams, is merely a starting point, since no two humans are alike. But the market for this kind of service is the elite cyclist. By elite, I mean spends a fortune. If one of these dudes is buying a $15k bike, and wears $2k worth of clothing to ride it, then why not have a status symbol fit? It's not about the status. Shops that provide these services are telling people they'll get as much as a 10% improvement in their power and speed as a result of better fit. Not sure about that number, but in the case of one of my riding pals who recently got such a fit as part of getting a new custom Seven, she easily improved at least that much. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
In the words of Stevil, one of my favorite blogging cyclist, My 100% not giving a s$t beats your 8% faster. Get the sticker here: http://market.allhailtheblackmarket.com/market/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=2products_id=79 --mike -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I'm with Patrick on this: it's definitely not all in your head. There's physical stuff involved, too. Best intentions in the world won't make a size 38 shoe fit a size 48 foot. But you do not need a laser analysis to tell you that a size 38 shoe fits a size 48 foot, right? I was not arguing that thought should not be put into getting the right fit on a bike. Rather, my argument was pointed to a pure fluff and as far as I know unsubstaniated marketing claim that a laser fit will yield a definite percentage improvement. Kellogg uses a cranky old contraption and his experience to fit people on his bikes. Spectrum customers are among the more satisfied on the planet. Likewise, I expect Jim Thill and Grant Peterson can do a pretty good job fitting people on the kind of bikes they sell without a bunch of digital theatre. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
I'm finicky about fit because I'm very prone to ulnar nerve palsy and wrist and thumb tendinitis if the bar and saddle aren't just right. Also, too low a bar can very quickly give me a lot of neck pain because I've got osteoarthritis issues there. Are you saying the laser fit systems have alogrythims to account for ulnar nerve palsy, tendinitis and osteoarthritis? It fully stands to reason someone with your exact dimensions who does not have these problems may perform better on a bike with different fit measurements. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
Re: [RBW] New Bike Fitting System
Agree with Garth. A bike fitting system is fine to get you started but after decades of riding, the last thing I need is a computer or expert telling me how to do it right. A young rider recently asked me about saddle height. I had to stop and think of all the different theories (fashions) I'd read about and tried—going back to the 1970s. I started to confuse even myself. Then it dawned on me! How do I set up my own saddle for height and fore/aft? After standing on the pedals, when I next again sit, my butt automatically goes to within millimeters of a specific spot. If the saddle ain't there to greet it, it's in the wrong place. Ultra-science! ;) Perry Fitting system? I don't need no stinkin' fitting system Bessas -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en-US. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
