Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 16:04 -0700, ted wrote: > Perhaps it could go to 650b in the smaller sizes (like on the Hillsen) > but I fear they wouldn't sell that many. The Rodeo is targeted at club > racer riding, and for that it sorta makes sense to have the same size > wheels as everybody else. Well, it can't be for wheel swaps, that doesn't happen on club rides, but for borrowing a tube? I know that for most of my bikes there's no chance anyone else on the ride will have the right size tube, so I carry two or three. It's really not a big deal. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 18:30 -0700, RonaTD wrote: > Steve says there won't be wheel swaps, but her frame will have a lot > of clearance. If one of her cohorts bangs a wheel out of true, she'll > be able to put it in her frame and they can all ride home :-) And she'll have Shimano 10 and the friend will have Campagnolo 11 or SRAM or maybe even Dura Ace 11, and it will be the back wheel because it always is the back wheel, and the chance of shifting working correctly will be slight. In practice what happens in a case like this is somebody pulls out a cell phone and calls for a ride home. You don't spec your bike on the off chance of a once-in-a-lifetime freak like this. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 01:56 -0700, Matt Beebe wrote: > Bicycles are open, while modern automobiles are black, disposable > boxes. How long do most riders keep the same bicycle? Looking at folks I know in the bike clubs I belong to, I get the feeling people keep their cars longer than their bicycles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Sun, 2012-08-05 at 20:46 -0700, Michael_S wrote: > As much as I enjoy the technical content of BQ I often struggle with > Jan's "strong negative opinions" with most bikes/parts that are > competition for his products or what he rides. If you are insinuating Jan disses products because they compete with things Compass sells, I would have to strongly disagree. He doesn't like things because Compass sells them; Compass sells things because he likes them, and often because there is no other source or similar product. > > He also suggests that we all would be happier on thin tubed standard > diameter frames, not offering the ideas that we are all not slight of > build like he is. Any of us who are larger in size but as fit will get > the same effect on larger/thicker tubes that are more proportionate > to our size. Not necessarily. At 200 lb, I am a LOT heavier than Jan, and anything but "slight of build". I've owned two OS-diameter Rivendells that I have sold and replaced with standard-diameter frames of the same tubing gauge, primarily because they were too stiff for me. The tubing is 1 size thicker than what Jan prefers; I believe the performance for me is similar, if not identical, to what Jan experiences. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 07:41 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: > > Jan is a sort of like a famous wine connoisseur. If he says Wine X is > good but Wine Y is swill, and you try both and find your preferences > are the exact opposite, then his opinion is worthless to you, and you > shouldn't lose sleep worrying that you're not tasting your wines > correctly. > I can't say much about wine critics, but a film critic whose preferences are exactly opposite to yours can provide some of the best film reviews. If I know reliably if he loves it I will hate it and if he hates it I will love it, I can go to the films he hates with great confidence I will have a wonderful time. > I'm thinking of commuters and recreational riders who ride 6000+ miles > per year on, say, a tire that Jan didn't review favorably or on a bike > that doesn't have Jan's optimal steering geometry (i.e. most bikes). > I'm thinking of people who ride relatively slowly for an hour or two > most days taking pictures, but would never think PBP, or even a 200k, > sounds like a good time. There is a trade-off with tires. The features that make a tire flat-resistant also make it slow, and the features that contribute to a tire being fast often result in a rapid wearing, vulnerable tire. If you ride slowly taking pictures and would rather get a root canal than a flat tire, the last thing you want is a fast, supple, rapid wearing expensive tire with no puncture resistance. > But for others, there's no need to wear Jan's clothes if they don't > fit. Certainly not. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Well said Jim. I think BQ is an excellent publication, particularly the accounts of rides/events. I enjoy the product reviews-sometimes. But the rest? Sometimes I don't know. He seems to have gotten away from the "everything not made by the classic French builders-which by the way you probably never get your hands on-is somehow/way inferior" thing, but the various tests of tire rolling resistance, etc., are akin to a high school science project while others have the appearance of being self-serving whether they are or not. For example, there was a recent custom build for a 6'4" rider. He was put on a 59cm w/ 171mm cranks? Sorry, I'm not buying it. Or the endless opinion that fatter tires are every bit as fast as skinny tires. No way. More comfortable? Absolutely. Better on dirt? For sure. Not faster. If that were the case, does anyone believe that the entire bicycle, and tire industry would not jump at the task to supply the entire racing/fast recreational community with new frames and rubber? Come on all you anti-corporate people out there, of course they would! Lastly, a bike with a big square box-shaped bag is more aero than a non-bag equipped bike? Maybe if Cadel evans had installed one in the Tour, he would've narrowed the gap in that crucial time trial. Again, a great publication that I look fwd to each and every month. RGZ On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: > I commend Jan for following his passion and making a very welcome business > out of it. I'd urge every interested person to read his blog and his paper > publication and carefully consider what he and his contributors have written. > > But after that, take what has been written with a grain of salt. I promise > that every one of Jan's opinions is perfectly true - for Jan, for today. Some > others may share aspects of Jan's body type, riding style, personality, or > general preferences, and some chords may ring true. But for others, there's > no need to wear Jan's clothes if they don't fit. > > I'm thinking of commuters and recreational riders who ride 6000+ miles per > year on, say, a tire that Jan didn't review favorably or on a bike that > doesn't have Jan's optimal steering geometry (i.e. most bikes). I'm thinking > of people who ride relatively slowly for an hour or two most days taking > pictures, but would never think PBP, or even a 200k, sounds like a good time. > > Jan is a sort of like a famous wine connoisseur. If he says Wine X is good > but Wine Y is swill, and you try both and find your preferences are the exact > opposite, then his opinion is worthless to you, and you shouldn't lose sleep > worrying that you're not tasting your wines correctly. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/O4bZhZMQThIJ. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 11:51 -0400, robert zeidler wrote: > Or the endless opinion that fatter tires are every bit as fast as > skinny tires. No way. More comfortable? Absolutely. Better on dirt? > For sure. Not faster. If that were the case, does anyone believe > that the entire bicycle, and tire industry would not jump at the task > to supply the entire racing/fast recreational community with new > frames and rubber? Come on all you anti-corporate people out there, > of course they would! > This sounds like yet another iteration of the old "if wide tires were better than 700x23 clinchers the racers would use them." However, it turns out, those 700x23 clinchers you've been seeing the racers use are nothing of the sort: they are tubulars disguised to make them look like clinchers. (And it's well known, due to their construction and the shape of the rims for them, tubulars of a given size ride like clinchers that are several mm wider.) Do you see anybody actively marketing sew-ups to the recreational make-believe-they-are-racers community? Of course not. They simply perpetuate the lie that those narrow clinchers are what the racers are using. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
I linked the tubing spec for the AHH to the comments section. I am curious if anyone reads it and what the ensuing discussion might be. I appreciate what Jan does for cycling and agree with quite a bit of what he says conceptually. As with any of the "bike personalites" I read what they think, try thier ideas, keep what I like and forget what I don't like. There is no right answer. Diffferent bikes for different likes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/1aFGc6brgwgJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 11:00 -0700, Jim Cloud wrote: > Richard Sachs once characterized the modern > infatuation with the French Constructeur era bike, as the end-point of > touring bike design, as being in the vein of Civil War enactors. Yes, that's very amusing, but one should also notice that as one of the best known builders of steel racing bikes, which have not been seen in the pro peloton for many years now, and which will certainly never be seen there again, he himself could be described as engaging in or fostering Civil War Re-enactment. > He also made the point that most of the riders in the top finishing > group of classic brevets, such as the P-B-P are not riding bikes that > evoke the Rene Herse or Alex Singer randonneur bikes of the past - > they're riding modern carbon fiber frame bikes. He also seems to be unaware that PBP is not a race. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
And Richard also failed to note the race bike riding PBP speedsters also skirt the rules. Many have support staff at the various rest stops with food, water bottle changes, change of clothes, etc. Jan is promoting a vike for people who actually rando the ways the rules intend - unsupported. Everything you need for 1200k is on the bike at the start. As for tires, Jan did not say large tires are faster. Rather he said on most road conditions well made tires wider than the average race clinchers have lower rolling resistance. And in fact, the width of race tires is increasing. Finally, on the linked comments section, Jan says he likes the Hilsen for what it is, but he does not think it would be the best choice of bikes to go out riding with a group of people with thin tube lbikes optimized for going fast. I doubt GP would argue the point. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Cv5Z8_g0rd8J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
And Richard also failed to note the race bike riding PBP speedsters also skirt the rules. Many have support staff at the various rest stops with food, water bottle changes, change of clothes, etc. Jan is promoting a vike for people who actually rando the ways the rules intend - unsupported. Everything you need for 1200k is on the bike at the start. As for tires, Jan did not say large tires are faster. Rather he said on most road conditions well made tires wider than the average race clinchers have lower rolling resistance. And in fact, the width of race tires is increasing. Finally, on the linked comments section, Jan says he likes the Hilsen for what it is, but he does not think it would be the best choice of bikes to go out riding with a group of people with thin tube lbikes optimized for going fast. I doubt GP would argue the point. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/DC6gyuYwvq0J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
And Richard also failed to note the race bike riding PBP speedsters also skirt the rules. Many have support staff at the various rest stops with food, water bottle changes, change of clothes, etc. Jan is promoting a vike for people who actually rando the ways the rules intend - unsupported. Everything you need for 1200k is on the bike at the start. As for tires, Jan did not say large tires are faster. Rather he said on most road conditions well made tires wider than the average race clinchers have lower rolling resistance. And in fact, the width of race tires is increasing. Finally, on the linked comments section, Jan says he likes the Hilsen for what it is, but he does not think it would be the best choice of bikes to go out riding with a group of people with thin tube lbikes optimized for going fast. I doubt GP would argue the point. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/jyT37FhNlhoJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
I don't want to take this thread much more OT than it already is. There are a few things that I wanted to chime in on: I found Rivendell and the BOB philosophy by accident - experimenting with my own bike fit and style. In a sense I pre-screened many of the Rivendell ideals - find a bike that does this or fits this way - rather than find out about fit and utility from Rivendell. I mention this because I like the angle of Jan Heine's work that deals with riding style/ preference evolution. I don't ride in brevets or long events so much of the BQ work doesn't apply directly to me. That said, I do read BQ and take what I can from it - along with ideas from Riv, Dave Moulton, etc. As other people have said there are certain things about Jan's delivery that don't sit well with me. At times he can come across as dismissive and over simplifying things. The cranks for example: It seems to me that his decision to create a net forged replica of the famous Rene Herse crank in the traditional 171mm size is defended by claiming that longer cranks are not needed because it is only a 2% difference (or so, don't have the quote in front of me but i think we have all read it). I think it could be true that once set up well a bicycle with 171mm cranks could perform as well and as comfortably for the same rider as another bike with 175mm cranks - given that many other factors and components establish fit. However, I have not seen him explain it this way. I have seen him dismiss the size difference. I have also been taken aback by his comments on crank fitting: Grease the spindle, install the crank, tighten it up after a few miles then leave it alone... This set-it-up-then-leave-it-alone model of bicycling does not relate to me at all. I don't have the privilege to own several bikes that can be set up and left alone and I like to tinker. I am constantly changing/adjusting/altering and swapping parts to get better/ different rides from my bicycles. Perhaps that is another Riv philosophy thing more than a BQ ideal. His approach just bugged be because it was so foreign to my experience but I don't mean to say it was wrong. Backing up a bit it is too bad that he has to defend the crank size/design at all. Running a small wholesale/retail business is not a simple task and creating a boutique product like those cranks is a financial gamble. I am glad that he has done so much. The happy accident that became the Hetre is another example. They are my favorite tires and it all came about in such and interesting way. Bottom line: I would like to see Jan, etc. at BQ do more to relate the context specific to their opinions/findings about bicycles. JL -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
> It seems to me that his decision to create a net forged replica of the famous Rene Herse crank in the traditional 171mm size is > defended by claiming that longer cranks are not needed because it is only a 2% difference (or so, don't have the quote in front of me > but i think we have all read it). Gross oversimplification. Jan explained quite clearly his is a small operation. To make the Rene Herse to the best of standards he believes in he had a mold created to forge the cranks. Making molds is very expensive. Jan opted to have them made in what he believes is the most optimal size. If you want cranks in other sizes, there are many companies out thee. Expecting a one person operation - and one with a very tight focus - to match the offerings of the bigs is unfair. Look no further than the limits GP has to set with his Rivendell business- a business intended for a much wider market. On Monday, August 6, 2012 2:20:39 PM UTC-5, JL wrote: > I don't want to take this thread much more OT than it already is. There > are a few things that I wanted to chime in on: > It seems to me that his decision to create a net forged replica of the > famous Rene Herse crank in the traditional 171mm size is defended by > claiming that longer cranks are not needed because it is only a 2% > difference (or so, don't have the quote in front of me but i think we have > all read it). > I found Rivendell and the BOB philosophy by accident - experimenting with > my own bike fit and style. In a sense I pre-screened many of the Rivendell > ideals - find a bike that does this or fits this way - rather than find > out about fit and utility from Rivendell. I mention this The cranks for > example: I think it could be true that once set up well a bicycle with > 171mm cranks could perform as well and as comfortably for the same rider as > another bike with 175mm cranks - given that many other factors and > components establish fit.because I like the angle of Jan Heine's work that > deals with riding style/ preference evolution. I don't ride in brevets or > long events so much of the BQ work doesn't apply directly to me. That > said, I do read BQ and take what I can from it - along with ideas from Riv, > Dave Moulton, etc. As other people have said there are certain things > about Jan's delivery that don't sit well with me. At times he can come > across as dismissive and over simplifying things.However, I have not > seen him explain it this way. I have seen him dismiss the size difference. > I have also been taken aback by his comments on crank fitting: Grease the > spindle, install the crank, tighten it up after a few miles then leave it > alone... This set-it-up-then-leave-it-alone model of bicycling does not > relate to me at all. I don't have the privilege to own several bikes that > can be set up and left alone and I like to tinker. I am constantly > changing/adjusting/altering and swapping parts to get better/ different > rides from my bicycles. Perhaps that is another Riv philosophy thing more > than a BQ ideal. His approach just bugged be because it was so foreign to > my experience but I don't mean to say it was wrong. Backing up a bit it > is too bad that he has to defend the crank size/design at all. Running a > small wholesale/retail business is not a simple task and creating a > boutique product like those cranks is a financial gamble. I am glad that > he has done so much. The happy accident that became the Hetre is another > example. They are my favorite tires and it all came about in such and > interesting way. > > Bottom line: I would like to see Jan, etc. at BQ do more to relate the > context specific to their opinions/findings about bicycles. > > JL > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/wXAk0oplQcAJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Monday, August 6, 2012 2:44:22 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote: > > Many have support staff at the various rest stops with food, water bottle > changes, change of clothes, etc. Jan is promoting a vike for people who > actually rando the ways the rules intend - unsupported. Everything you > need for 1200k is on the bike at the start. last i checked, bag drops and "support" at controls are within the rules . . . in fact, it's the norm, at least on the longer brevets I've done. even on the shorter brevets, people rely on cashiers at convenience stores (these often serve as controls) to buy food, supplies, etc., or have people meet them there with anything that might be needed. the faster riders want to be in and out of controls as quickly as possible - it saves a significant amount of time. and when your racing ... . errr, i mean randonneuring those precious minutes count. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/THF77_MW7_QJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
I meant to defend the 171mm crank design/sizing and only mention that I was want for a more clear explanation of why the size could still work given to those people who had commented in the past "I ride 175mm cranks these wont work for my other bike", rather than a defense of the manufacturing/design aspects Perhaps I wasn't clear. JL On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 12:29 PM, Matthew J wrote: > > It seems to me that his decision to create a net forged replica of the > famous Rene Herse crank in the traditional 171mm size is > > defended by claiming that longer cranks are not needed because it is > only a 2% difference (or so, don't have the quote in front of me > > but i think we have all read it). > > Gross oversimplification. > > Jan explained quite clearly his is a small operation. To make the Rene > Herse to the best of standards he believes in he had a mold created to > forge the cranks. Making molds is very expensive. Jan opted to have them > made in what he believes is the most optimal size. If you want cranks in > other sizes, there are many companies out thee. Expecting a one person > operation - and one with a very tight focus - to match the offerings of the > bigs is unfair. Look no further than the limits GP has to set with his > Rivendell business- a business intended for a much wider market. > > On Monday, August 6, 2012 2:20:39 PM UTC-5, JL wrote: > >> I don't want to take this thread much more OT than it already is. There >> are a few things that I wanted to chime in on: >> It seems to me that his decision to create a net forged replica of the >> famous Rene Herse crank in the traditional 171mm size is defended by >> claiming that longer cranks are not needed because it is only a 2% >> difference (or so, don't have the quote in front of me but i think we have >> all read it). >> I found Rivendell and the BOB philosophy by accident - experimenting with >> my own bike fit and style. In a sense I pre-screened many of the Rivendell >> ideals - find a bike that does this or fits this way - rather than find >> out about fit and utility from Rivendell. I mention this The cranks for >> example: I think it could be true that once set up well a bicycle with >> 171mm cranks could perform as well and as comfortably for the same rider as >> another bike with 175mm cranks - given that many other factors and >> components establish fit.because I like the angle of Jan Heine's work that >> deals with riding style/ preference evolution. I don't ride in brevets or >> long events so much of the BQ work doesn't apply directly to me. That >> said, I do read BQ and take what I can from it - along with ideas from Riv, >> Dave Moulton, etc. As other people have said there are certain things >> about Jan's delivery that don't sit well with me. At times he can come >> across as dismissive and over simplifying things.However, I have not >> seen him explain it this way. I have seen him dismiss the size difference. >> I have also been taken aback by his comments on crank fitting: Grease the >> spindle, install the crank, tighten it up after a few miles then leave it >> alone... This set-it-up-then-leave-it-alone model of bicycling does not >> relate to me at all. I don't have the privilege to own several bikes that >> can be set up and left alone and I like to tinker. I am constantly >> changing/adjusting/altering and swapping parts to get better/ different >> rides from my bicycles. Perhaps that is another Riv philosophy thing more >> than a BQ ideal. His approach just bugged be because it was so foreign to >> my experience but I don't mean to say it was wrong. Backing up a bit it >> is too bad that he has to defend the crank size/design at all. Running a >> small wholesale/retail business is not a simple task and creating a >> boutique product like those cranks is a financial gamble. I am glad that >> he has done so much. The happy accident that became the Hetre is another >> example. They are my favorite tires and it all came about in such and >> interesting way. >> >> Bottom line: I would like to see Jan, etc. at BQ do more to relate the >> context specific to their opinions/findings about bicycles. >> >> JL >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/wXAk0oplQcAJ. > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 12:29 -0700, Matthew J wrote: > Jan explained quite clearly his is a small operation. To make the > Rene Herse to the best of standards he believes in he had a mold > created to forge the cranks. Making molds is very expensive. Jan > opted to have them made in what he believes is the most optimal size. > If you want cranks in other sizes, there are many companies out thee. > Expecting a one person operation - and one with a very tight focus - > to match the offerings of the bigs is unfair. Look no further than > the limits GP has to set with his Rivendell business- a business > intended for a much wider market. So, in other words, it's a case of he can't afford to make cranks in different sizes and this size ought to work for most people, especially since the next larger size is only a tiny percentage longer; and for those who can't make that size work, there are plenty of other cranks on the market they can buy. Looking for some kind of theory of crank length that would explain why 171 is the "perfect size" is a mistake. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
> last i checked, bag drops and "support" at controls are within the rules My reference was intended to be PBP exclusively - I see the way I wrote that is not clear. As I understand the PBP rules, bag drops are not allowed. On Monday, August 6, 2012 2:39:10 PM UTC-5, Patrick in VT wrote: > On Monday, August 6, 2012 2:44:22 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote: >> >> Many have support staff at the various rest stops with food, water bottle >> changes, change of clothes, etc. Jan is promoting a vike for people who >> actually rando the ways the rules intend - unsupported. Everything you >> need for 1200k is on the bike at the start. > > > last i checked, bag drops and "support" at controls are within the rules . > . . in fact, it's the norm, at least on the longer brevets I've done. even > on the shorter brevets, people rely on cashiers at convenience stores > (these often serve as controls) to buy food, supplies, etc., or have people > meet them there with anything that might be needed. the faster riders want > to be in and out of controls as quickly as possible - it saves a > significant amount of time. and when your racing ... . errr, i mean > randonneuring those precious minutes count. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/NOSJhiXl1KoJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 13:48 -0700, Matthew J wrote: > It is a big race with thousands or participants and spectators. > Believe the organization is the French equiavalent of a not for > profit. Enforcement is not easy under any circumstances - nigh > impossible in PBP. And of course the idea is those who participate do > so within the spirit of the event. Obviously there are those who > don't care. And it's not a race. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Aug 6, 2012, at 10:51 AM, robert zeidler wrote: > Or the endless opinion that fatter tires are every bit as fast as > skinny tires. No way. More comfortable? Absolutely. Better on dirt? > For sure. Not faster. This is measurable. Avocet did testing on this in the 80s, and others have more or less duplicated, and found that up to about 25 mm wider was faster but this effect dropped off due to the necessity to change to a coarser fabric for the casing due to- if I recall correctly- hoop stress increasing faster than the minor diameter increases. Basically a casing made from the fine high-TPI fabric possible at 18-25 mm is prone to failure at widths of 28-35 mm. This may have been for cotton casings and I don't know if the same holds true for synthetic casing fabrics. I have found that wider tires are more prone to casing failures, less prone to pinch flats and about the same for punctures. At 6'4" and 230 lbs, I also find I have to inflate all tires to the rated pressure with the result that differences in comfort are not really all that noticeable. A little, maybe. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Aug 6, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Jim Cloud wrote: > I find some of the various modern Constructeur bikes, built with > French components from the 1960-1970's (e.g. Mafac brakes, Simplex > derailleurs, T.A. or Rene Herse modern manufacture cranks), to be a > little strange. Richard Sachs once characterized the modern > infatuation with the French Constructeur era bike, as the end-point of > touring bike design, as being in the vein of Civil War enactors. He > also made the point that most of the riders in the top finishing group > of classic brevets, such as the P-B-P are not riding bikes that evoke > the Rene Herse or Alex Singer randonneur bikes of the past - they're > riding modern carbon fiber frame bikes. I think this was a valid > observation I am reminded of Dr. Clifford Graves's story of PBP, in which the technical inspector told him that his Rene Herse was "too heavy" and that most of the other riders were on race bikes (I'd bet that the difference was probably all of 2 kg or so). Of course, my Rivendell All-Rounder has fenders, 32 mm tires, lights, front rack, Berthoud bag, Mafac tandem cantis, etc... And did before Jan started publishing VBQ. My inspiration was the old Guinness book. Initially I saw Jan as a sort of like-minded fellow, but he has gone far beyond me in that direction. One of my other favorite bikes is a 3 speed "club racer" type bike (I designed and built the frame) with a Carradice Nelson that I bought from Riv at least 15 years ago. And my other favorite bike is my old Ritchey from my racing days, with 25s on it. I much prefer Jan's event reports, interviews and histories to the tech articles. I have never liked bike test reports in any magazine. At least Jan makes no bones about his very specific preferences and standards, which makes it easier to interpret his evaluations. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 18:14 -0700, Michael Hechmer wrote: > I too am a big Jan Heine admirer. He is a very bike smart guy, but he > is confused about two things, not evident in the posted blog. First, > riding fast and riding far are two different things. Both can be fun, > but as you combine the two, fewer and fewer people actually enjoy > it. > Second, bikes and components are not necessarily faster or better > because they were first made in France. Do you honestly think he believes that? You don't think there's any chance at all that it's simply that he likes the sort of things the French made? > I would be happy to put my Ram, with mostly USA made components, up > against any bike costing not more than twice as much on any two to > four hour ride, which is about all that I or most riders actually > enjoy. I'll happily take that challenge, having been the owner of a Ram which I sold because it was too stiff for me, and replaced with a Johnny Coast-built Velo Orange Randonneur (just like the one BQ tested) with all the other components except the headset swapped over. Two hour, four hour, ten hour ride, in every case the VO performs differently in a way that I would characterize as "better". -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: > > I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he > even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these > topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of > those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant > group except perhaps BQ subscribers). > > Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure. A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so sure: they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
So what is the obsession with stiffer tubing, in all seriousness? The only bike I can remember flexing under me so much I noticed it was my Look KG96 and it was CF which is supposedly super stiff, but it was more that I was afraid at 250lbs of destroying it rather than being bothered by the flexiness. I can remember back in the day reading about how pros loved 531 due to its "springiness" while climbing, is the trend towards super stiff just yet another marketing ploy? I wish I had the money to have 4 totally different bikes to be able to ride them all back to back but at my weight and riding conditions I rock the bombadil which while stiffer than my old Raleigh International is certainly not dead feeling, then again I only have one top tube, thankfully. On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: > > > > I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he > > even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these > > topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of > > those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant > > group except perhaps BQ subscribers). > > > > > > > Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure. > A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so sure: > they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the > day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: >> >> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he >> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these >> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of >> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant >> group except perhaps BQ subscribers). > > > Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure. > A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so sure: > they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the > day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. True enough. Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc. The power loss from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no difference, even with "noodly" frames. I like mine to be stiff enough to make derailleur rub rare because it's annoying, but I've never actually been able to feel any power loss from frame flex. Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who won monuments and Classics, the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., on one of the most notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979. If the frame flex handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of frightening... Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is actually correct. It is a spring. There are several springs on a bike- the frame, the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but also radially), the saddle, etc. In the case of bars, frame and radial wheel flex the distances involved are tenths to hundreds of an inch. Lateral wheel flex, especially the rear wheel, can be relatively large (e.g., 1/8 to 1/4 inch) under normal use. A lot of these can be quantified with strain gauges, which might be an interesting study. Can "planing" be objectively measured and compared to the subjective experience? Can all those things affect how a bike feels to ride? Maybe. I think that most are like the princess and the pea, but some people may be more sensitive to these sorts of inputs than me. We all have had the experience of "I like this bike and I don't like that bike." There are a lot of variables that go into that. Some of those might be exactly the kinds of thing Jan writes about, some may not. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term from boating. One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are. My "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there are too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the stiffest BB due to the ovalized seat tube. On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted wrote: > Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over > whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff > enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I > think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right > flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good > "performance" bike. > > Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about > beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get > why thats called planing. Does somebody here know? > > On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: >> On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: >> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant group except perhaps BQ subscribers). >> >>> Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure. >>> A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so sure: >>> they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the >>> day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. >> >> True enough. Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially >> overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, chainstay >> length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc. The power loss from BB flex >> is probably close enough to nil as makes no difference, even with "noodly" >> frames. I like mine to be stiff enough to make derailleur rub rare because >> it's annoying, but I've never actually been able to feel any power loss from >> frame flex. Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who won monuments and >> Classics, the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., on one of the most >> notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979. If the frame flex >> handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of frightening... >> >> Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is actually >> correct. It is a spring. There are several springs on a bike- the frame, >> the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but also radially), the >> saddle, etc. In the case of bars, frame and radial wheel flex the distances >> involved are tenths to hundreds of an inch. Lateral wheel flex, especially >> the rear wheel, can be relatively large (e.g., 1/8 to 1/4 inch) under normal >> use. A lot of these can be quantified with strain gauges, which might be an >> interesting study. Can "planing" be objectively measured and compared to >> the subjective experience? >> >> Can all those things affect how a bike feels to ride? Maybe. I think that >> most are like the princess and the pea, but some people may be more >> sensitive to these sorts of inputs than me. We all have had the experience >> of "I like this bike and I don't like that bike." There are a lot of >> variables that go into that. Some of those might be exactly the kinds of >> thing Jan writes about, some may not. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Personally I like that it comes down to a personal preference. What doesn't work for me may be perfect for you. Your tight size 12 shoe may be like a slipper on my feet. The numbers game is the perfect, scientific way to measure, say, the rolling resistance of tires. That doesn't mean you can't still prefer the "less than optimal" tire. For example, Ruffy Tuffy's, until they are a bit broken in, feel like Velcro to me-they just feel like they are glued to the road. OTOH, the JB's are a great rolling, comfy tire. I love the way they whistle down the road. Go figure. Sent from my iPad On Aug 6, 2012, at 8:41 PM, ted wrote: > I keep thinking how nice if would be if folks would use numbers (and > units if course) more often. > You know, like how many mm wider, or how many mph faster etc. > Even better folks could also state a base state they are comparing to. > Like 1 mph faster at 20 mph. > > On a related note, with curves of optimal tire pressure vs. weight > being out there, does anybody else wonder when somebody is going to > put forward an "optimal" tire width vs. weight curve to go with it? > Maybe with different curves for different surfaces? > > On Aug 6, 5:16 pm, robert zeidler wrote: >> Not talking about a few centimeters. That's never even been suggested. I'm >> talking about 12 or 20 mm bigger. >> >> You're not going to determine what rolls faster by rolling down a hill and >> measuring with a stop watch. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, August 6, 2012, Steve Palincsar wrote: >>> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 11:51 -0400, robert zeidler wrote: Or the endless opinion that fatter tires are every bit as fast as skinny tires. No way. More comfortable? Absolutely. Better on dirt? For sure. Not faster. If that were the case, does anyone believe that the entire bicycle, and tire industry would not jump at the task to supply the entire racing/fast recreational community with new frames and rubber? Come on all you anti-corporate people out there, of course they would! >> >>> This sounds like yet another iteration of the old "if wide tires were >>> better than 700x23 clinchers the racers would use them." However, it >>> turns out, those 700x23 clinchers you've been seeing the racers use are >>> nothing of the sort: they are tubulars disguised to make them look like >>> clinchers. (And it's well known, due to their construction and the >>> shape of the rims for them, tubulars of a given size ride like clinchers >>> that are several mm wider.) >> >>> Do you see anybody actively marketing sew-ups to the recreational >>> make-believe-they-are-racers community? Of course not. They simply >>> perpetuate the lie that those narrow clinchers are what the racers are >>> using. >> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
I notice the same thing on any charity ride or a lot of brevets. It's Ti or CF up front. Still takes a good motor of course. For example, my 64cm Atlantis, w/ GB 30c tires, Berthoud fenders, VO front rack, Brooks B 17, and Berthoud bag weighs in at almost 37 lbs. I can take my 67cm Seven Alaris, w/standard gearing (53/39, Campy 12/29 10 spd), a small under seat pack, and small-ish Ortlieb handlebar bag, equally comfy Specialized saddle, carrying the same stuff, the whole rig weighs 19.4 lbs. On a hilly 200 or 300k on the Riv, I'm usually mailing it in by the end. I'm usually still knackered on the other but at the finish much sooner. Sent from my iPad On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:44 PM, Tim McNamara wrote: > On Aug 6, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Jim Cloud wrote: > >> I find some of the various modern Constructeur bikes, built with >> French components from the 1960-1970's (e.g. Mafac brakes, Simplex >> derailleurs, T.A. or Rene Herse modern manufacture cranks), to be a >> little strange. Richard Sachs once characterized the modern >> infatuation with the French Constructeur era bike, as the end-point of >> touring bike design, as being in the vein of Civil War enactors. He >> also made the point that most of the riders in the top finishing group >> of classic brevets, such as the P-B-P are not riding bikes that evoke >> the Rene Herse or Alex Singer randonneur bikes of the past - they're >> riding modern carbon fiber frame bikes. I think this was a valid >> observation > > I am reminded of Dr. Clifford Graves's story of PBP, in which the technical > inspector told him that his Rene Herse was "too heavy" and that most of the > other riders were on race bikes (I'd bet that the difference was probably all > of 2 kg or so). > > Of course, my Rivendell All-Rounder has fenders, 32 mm tires, lights, front > rack, Berthoud bag, Mafac tandem cantis, etc... And did before Jan started > publishing VBQ. My inspiration was the old Guinness book. Initially I saw > Jan as a sort of like-minded fellow, but he has gone far beyond me in that > direction. One of my other favorite bikes is a 3 speed "club racer" type > bike (I designed and built the frame) with a Carradice Nelson that I bought > from Riv at least 15 years ago. And my other favorite bike is my old Ritchey > from my racing days, with 25s on it. > > I much prefer Jan's event reports, interviews and histories to the tech > articles. I have never liked bike test reports in any magazine. At least > Jan makes no bones about his very specific preferences and standards, which > makes it easier to interpret his evaluations. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
I think the key point here is that you (or me or Jan or Sheldon) are making judgement calls about what 'better' means. 'Better' is not a scientific measurement. It's an opinion. Stiffer is measurable. It's objective. That doesn't mean it is 'better' or 'worse' for anyone but the person choosing. I think that often we confuse descriptive, opinion based adjectives with descriptive, objectively data derived ones. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/JqP0Oc8M_U4J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Well said. The part of these tests that is labeled " conclusions" should be, instead, "perceptions". Sent from my iPad On Aug 7, 2012, at 8:02 AM, justinaug...@gmail.com wrote: > I think the key point here is that you (or me or Jan or Sheldon) are making > judgement calls about what 'better' means. 'Better' is not a scientific > measurement. It's an opinion. Stiffer is measurable. It's objective. That > doesn't mean it is 'better' or 'worse' for anyone but the person choosing. I > think that often we confuse descriptive, opinion based adjectives with > descriptive, objectively data derived ones. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/JqP0Oc8M_U4J. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
> I notice the same thing on any charity ride or a lot of brevets. It's Ti or CF up front. Still takes a good motor of course. Ti bike are almost always custom, meaning whoever is riding that probably spends a lot of time on the bike given the time and money invested. Moreover, while Ti is letter than steel, Ti frames use wider tubing. The weight difference between a Ti and steel frame is not all that different. While good CF frames are up there in price, there are a lot of lower cost models out there, making them easier for younger (and one would hope anyway, better shape) cyclists. Good steel road frames, like Ti, are almost usually custom (or in the case of Riv, custom quality and price). You are not going to see a lot of steel riders at the front of any large race primarily because there are not a lot of appropriate steel bikes out there. Especially so in Europe, where the custom bike building industry lags the U.S. signficantly. Check out the blogs of a lot of the U.S. steel builders out there and you will see that many are getting a % of orders from Europe and Asia as well. As the overseas markets begin to develop their own steel builders, I expect you will see more steel bikes in general and more leading races. On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 6:53:38 AM UTC-5, z-man wrote: > I notice the same thing on any charity ride or a lot of brevets. It's Ti > or CF up front. Still takes a good motor of course. > > For example, my 64cm Atlantis, w/ GB 30c tires, Berthoud fenders, VO front > rack, Brooks B 17, and Berthoud bag weighs in at almost 37 lbs. > > I can take my 67cm Seven Alaris, w/standard gearing (53/39, Campy 12/29 10 > spd), a small under seat pack, and small-ish Ortlieb handlebar bag, equally > comfy Specialized saddle, carrying the same stuff, the whole rig weighs > 19.4 lbs. > > On a hilly 200 or 300k on the Riv, I'm usually mailing it in by the end. > I'm usually still knackered on the other but at the finish much sooner. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:44 PM, Tim McNamara wrote: > > > On Aug 6, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Jim Cloud wrote: > > > >> I find some of the various modern Constructeur bikes, built with > >> French components from the 1960-1970's (e.g. Mafac brakes, Simplex > >> derailleurs, T.A. or Rene Herse modern manufacture cranks), to be a > >> little strange. Richard Sachs once characterized the modern > >> infatuation with the French Constructeur era bike, as the end-point of > >> touring bike design, as being in the vein of Civil War enactors. He > >> also made the point that most of the riders in the top finishing group > >> of classic brevets, such as the P-B-P are not riding bikes that evoke > >> the Rene Herse or Alex Singer randonneur bikes of the past - they're > >> riding modern carbon fiber frame bikes. I think this was a valid > >> observation > > > > I am reminded of Dr. Clifford Graves's story of PBP, in which the > technical inspector told him that his Rene Herse was "too heavy" and that > most of the other riders were on race bikes (I'd bet that the difference > was probably all of 2 kg or so). > > > > Of course, my Rivendell All-Rounder has fenders, 32 mm tires, lights, > front rack, Berthoud bag, Mafac tandem cantis, etc... And did before Jan > started publishing VBQ. My inspiration was the old Guinness book. > Initially I saw Jan as a sort of like-minded fellow, but he has gone far > beyond me in that direction. One of my other favorite bikes is a 3 speed > "club racer" type bike (I designed and built the frame) with a Carradice > Nelson that I bought from Riv at least 15 years ago. And my other favorite > bike is my old Ritchey from my racing days, with 25s on it. > > > > I much prefer Jan's event reports, interviews and histories to the tech > articles. I have never liked bike test reports in any magazine. At least > Jan makes no bones about his very specific preferences and standards, which > makes it easier to interpret his evaluations. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/8EUziu7OLzMJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Monday, August 6, 2012 4:42:16 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote: > > > My reference was intended to be PBP exclusively - I see the way I wrote > that is not clear. As I understand the PBP rules, bag drops are not > allowed. > Ancien/anciennes can correct me here, but i'm pretty sure bag drops are commonly used at PBP and there is no penalty for this, nor is it considered cheating. In my experience, "unsupported" isn't a very precise word in randonneuring. Regarding whether it's "racing" or not, that's entirely up to any given rider. everybody has a goal - whether it's to finish fast, set a personal best or just finish. real amateur "races" work the same way - often, the winner gets absolutely nothing but a bit of local glory. participation in a 5/10k foot race, or a marathon (also a "race"), or Cat4 masters cyclocross race, or local sprint triathlon, etc. is not contingent on people who think they are actually going to "win" - folks do it because they like it. or want to try something new. the results might read differently, but rando and "racing" aren't that different. its just people out for the experience/personal challenge, reaching for their goals and enjoying an active life. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/eA-JIp5WZUcJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Apologies if someone already mentioned this, but... Long before I ever heard the name Jan Heine or the term "planing," It was Grant Petersen who first brought the phenomenon to my attention. The 1992 Bridgestone catalog has an article on p. 34 explaining why they preferred skinny tubing on their bikes when the rest of the world was going OS. It's called "The Benefits of a Little Frame Flex" and compared it to jumping higher on a sprung wooden floor as opposed to a hard concrete floor. One quote: "A bike frame flexes under the pressure of pedaling, and, as it recovers from the flex, releases some of that energy to help you go." I've always wondered why Grant changed his mind and went with stiff OS tubing on Rivendell bikes. Cheers, Ryan in Albuquerque On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:28, ted wrote: > "Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when > he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term > from boating." > > Interesting. It is precisely because of the terms use in boating that > I find his application perplexing and a source of confusion. > When a boat planes it is running more over the water than through it. > It's also a phenomena that requires a minimum speed to realize, and > there is a hump in resistance before reaching planing speeds where > resistance is greater than it is after you get the boat up and > planing. Seems like it just doesn't fit as a label for a desirable > oscillating bottom bracket motion. > > On Aug 6, 10:41 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: >> Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he was >> first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term from boating. >> >> One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, >> since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are. My >> "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there are >> too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the stiffest >> BB due to the ovalized seat tube. >> >> On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over >>> whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff >>> enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I >>> think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right >>> flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good >>> "performance" bike. >> >>> Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about >>> beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get >>> why thats called planing. Does somebody here know? >> >>> On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: >> > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: >> >> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he >> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these >> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of >> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant >> group except perhaps BQ subscribers). >> > Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure. > A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so sure: > they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the > day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. >> True enough. Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc. The power loss from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no difference, even with "noodly" frames. I like mine to be stiff enough to make derailleur rub rare because it's annoying, but I've never actually been able to feel any power loss from frame flex. Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who won monuments and Classics, the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., on one of the most notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979. If the frame flex handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of frightening... >> Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is actually correct. It is a spring. There are several springs on a bike- the frame, the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but also radially), the saddle, etc. In the case of bars, frame and radial wheel flex the distances involved are tenths to hundreds of an inch. Lateral wheel flex, especially the rear wheel, can be relatively large (e.g., 1/8 to 1/4 inch) under normal use. A lot of these can be quantified with strain gauges, which might be an interesting study. Can "planing" be objectively measured and compared to the subjective expe
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
> Ancien/anciennes can correct me here, but i'm pretty sure bag drops are commonly used at PBP and there is no penalty for this, nor is > it considered cheating. In my experience, "unsupported" isn't a very precise word in randonneuring. Well, would not be the first time I misunderstood something I read somewhere. Of course whether the bike is Steel, Ti or Plastic, a rider should be able to go faster without a load than with. If the rider intends to ride 1200 km without any outside supply, the traditional Rando set up is as good a way to do this as any. By that I mean a relatively light frame and fork with a modest sized bag up front for easy access. You could carry battery lights, but dynamo mean less chance of losing light, so why not? And, if the ride is in a place where rain is likely- such as the Pacific Northwest or the Northwest Coast of France, fenders make a lot of sense. On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 9:23:16 AM UTC-5, Patrick in VT wrote: > On Monday, August 6, 2012 4:42:16 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote: >> >> >> My reference was intended to be PBP exclusively - I see the way I wrote >> that is not clear. As I understand the PBP rules, bag drops are not >> allowed. >> > > Ancien/anciennes can correct me here, but i'm pretty sure bag drops are > commonly used at PBP and there is no penalty for this, nor is it considered > cheating. In my experience, "unsupported" isn't a very precise word in > randonneuring. > > Regarding whether it's "racing" or not, that's entirely up to any given > rider. everybody has a goal - whether it's to finish fast, set a personal > best or just finish. real amateur "races" work the same way - often, the > winner gets absolutely nothing but a bit of local glory. participation in > a 5/10k foot race, or a marathon (also a "race"), or Cat4 masters > cyclocross race, or local sprint triathlon, etc. is not contingent on > people who think they are actually going to "win" - folks do it because > they like it. or want to try something new. the results might read > differently, but rando and "racing" aren't that different. its just people > out for the experience/personal challenge, reaching for their goals and > enjoying an active life. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/-WPFlpJus0MJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
the only dichotomy worth talking about in bicycling are those who ride their bikes instead of driving a car, and those who don't. beyond that, do what you will nobody cares. before that, your decisions harm other people and force those without the choice to inhale your pollution. erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught fire last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me convenience or give me death crowd. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 05:33 -0700, ted wrote: > I think Jan asserts that stiffer is slower, which is objectively > measurable. I would like to see a citation for that statement. I believe I have read almost everything Jan has published in the last 10 years (except for the Competition Bicycles book) and I do not recall any such blanket statement. So please, go hunt for it and when you find it, quote it in its entirety and provide a citation. Either that, or retract the statement. Steve Palincsar Alexandria VA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
> erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught fire last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me > convenience or give me death crowd. Agree with your car sentiments whole-heartedly (car free myself for eight years this month). I think that Chevron refinery makes the heavy oil used in third world power plants (which of course is much worse than gasoline from the pollution perspective). On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:50:28 AM UTC-5, bicyc...@gmail.com wrote: > > the only dichotomy worth talking about in bicycling are those who ride > their bikes instead of driving a car, and those who don't. > > beyond that, do what you will nobody cares. > > before that, your decisions harm other people and force those without the > choice to inhale your pollution. > > erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught > fire last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me convenience or > give me death crowd. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/gwtx_s2DYxEJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 22:28 -0700, Jan Heine wrote: > But I also suspect that Grant doesn't care - he > makes the bikes he makes not because they are the most profitable, but > because they are the bikes he loves. Further evidence is the way he keeps redesigning lugs. That's a huge amount of money for each new design, while repeat castings of an already paid for design would be much less expensive. Obviously it's not motivated by a desire to maximize profits! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 21:42 -0700, ted wrote: > Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over > whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff > enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I > think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right > flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good > "performance" bike. Citation, please. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Well said Erik. Sometimes we get caught up in specialization within bicycling, which should be trivial.Of course, we are reading the RBWOB list, which is yet another specialization. Sorry to hear about the Chevron refinery fire and its fallout. I rode my bike to your neck of the woods once. I crossed the bridge at Martinez from the north while heading to Oakland, and could not believe how huge the Shell refinery is. Unfortunately the Chevron/Shell refineries have caused higher rates of respiratory disease, neurological disorders, and cancer for the people in the Richmond/Oakland area, to say nothing of their effect on the local wildlife. On Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:50:28 PM UTC-4, bicyc...@gmail.com wrote: > > the only dichotomy worth talking about in bicycling are those who ride > their bikes instead of driving a car, and those who don't. > > beyond that, do what you will nobody cares. > > before that, your decisions harm other people and force those without the > choice to inhale your pollution. > > erik, who had to close his windows because the chevron refinery caught > fire last night and is extremely frustrated by the give me convenience or > give me death crowd. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/devdcFwYXXQJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Personally I hope does do quite well on each bike. That's his right. Sent from my iPad On Aug 7, 2012, at 2:09 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 22:28 -0700, Jan Heine wrote: >> But I also suspect that Grant doesn't care - he >> makes the bikes he makes not because they are the most profitable, but >> because they are the bikes he loves. > > Further evidence is the way he keeps redesigning lugs. That's a huge > amount of money for each new design, while repeat castings of an already > paid for design would be much less expensive. Obviously it's not > motivated by a desire to maximize profits! > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
And if memory serves I might have seen the term in Bicycle Guide back in the 80's Sent from my iPad On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Ryan Watson wrote: > Apologies if someone already mentioned this, but... > Long before I ever heard the name Jan Heine or the term "planing," It was > Grant Petersen who first brought the phenomenon to my attention. > The 1992 Bridgestone catalog has an article on p. 34 explaining why they > preferred skinny tubing on their bikes when the rest of the world was going > OS. It's called "The Benefits of a Little Frame Flex" and compared it to > jumping higher on a sprung wooden floor as opposed to a hard concrete floor. > One quote: "A bike frame flexes under the pressure of pedaling, and, as it > recovers from the flex, releases some of that energy to help you go." > I've always wondered why Grant changed his mind and went with stiff OS tubing > on Rivendell bikes. > > Cheers, > Ryan in Albuquerque > > > > On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:28, ted wrote: > >> "Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when >> he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term >> from boating." >> >> Interesting. It is precisely because of the terms use in boating that >> I find his application perplexing and a source of confusion. >> When a boat planes it is running more over the water than through it. >> It's also a phenomena that requires a minimum speed to realize, and >> there is a hump in resistance before reaching planing speeds where >> resistance is greater than it is after you get the boat up and >> planing. Seems like it just doesn't fit as a label for a desirable >> oscillating bottom bracket motion. >> >> On Aug 6, 10:41 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: >>> Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he was >>> first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term from boating. >>> >>> One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, >>> since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are. My >>> "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there are >>> too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the stiffest >>> BB due to the ovalized seat tube. >>> >>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good "performance" bike. >>> Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get why thats called planing. Does somebody here know? >>> On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara wrote: > On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: >>> >> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: >>> >>> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he >>> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these >>> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view of >>> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant >>> group except perhaps BQ subscribers). >>> >> Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for sure. >> A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so sure: >> they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in the >> day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. >>> > True enough. Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially > overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, > chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc. The power loss > from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no difference, even > with "noodly" frames. I like mine to be stiff enough to make derailleur > rub rare because it's annoying, but I've never actually been able to feel > any power loss from frame flex. Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who > won monuments and Classics, the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., > on one of the most notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979. > If the frame flex handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of > frightening... >>> > Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is actually > correct. It is a spring. There are several springs on a bike- the > frame, the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but also > radially), the saddle, etc. In the case of bars, frame and radial wheel > flex the distances involved are tenths to hundreds of an inch. Lateral > wheel flex, especiall
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
I would be interested in recommendations of another cycling periodical that has a more rigorous approach. Most bike mags I've read give a cursory glorifying review of all bikes/components, and are certainly no more than quick opinion pieces. I've found BQ to be better for me in that Jan is an enthusiast that comes to the sport from a different angle (long distance riding) and appreciates a more sporty ride, but has an appreciation for aesthetics as well. I like that he has an opinion. Most journalists either don't, or won't. Brian Seattle, WA On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:10 AM, wrote: > You would have to show me some pretty rigorous tests to prove that across > the board, stuff = slow. I LOVE BQ and all that it does for cycling, both > technically and culturally, but I have yet to see tests that strike me as > being rigorous enough to assert anything from them as an axiom or anything > more than a anecdotally observed theory. > > Justin, in Philly > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/5yzKTVMLIX0J. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Oy, this conversation is frustrating to read. I like Jan's blog but to say that those are "experiments" or "scientific" is not really all that accurate, take for example this page with speed testing for car tires http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/upgradetire/econ/TireUpgradeII.html a study like that probably cost millions to conduct but it is just for industry gurus and race car drivers. it is the same for wind resistance and modeling for cars to test for speed, millions of dollars each year. The thing is Most car drivers like most bike riders just want something round that doesnt wear out too fast, I bet if you asked 10 riders out there what size they were running only half would have any idea and they are happy riding them! I appreciate Jan's observations and his tests for what they are, an expert opinion on a product. If I get I set of tires and I dont like them I am out the cost of shipping to sell them to someone else or at most the cost of the tires, not a big loss in the grand scheme of bike-dom and maybe you get a set you love and use for thousands of miles you never would have used if not for a review on BQ. On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:06 PM, ted wrote: > Steve, > > I am sorry but I won't spend time culling for quotes with citations. > Clearly "stiffer" and "faster" are objective terms regardless of who > uses them. > From reading the section of Jan's blog referenced at the start of this > thread (the post and associated comments) my impression is that he is > convinced a bike built with the right amount of flexibility is faster > than a stiffer one because of it's greater flexibility (or > equivalently the others greater stiffness), that bikes built with > oversized tubes are usually or almost always too stiff in this > respect, and that a bike that is too stiff is a poor (subjective term > there) performance bike because its excess stiffness makes it slower > than a properly designed (subjective term there) bike with the right > flex. > From posts in this thread I conclude he has demonstrated this effect > experimentally and does not consider it a matter of opinion. > > If I have misconstrued his meaning I certainly regret it. > Please consider anything I have written about what he thinks or writes > retracted. > > On Aug 7, 11:14 am, Steve Palincsar wrote: > > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 21:42 -0700, ted wrote: > > > Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over > > > whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff > > > enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I > > > think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right > > > flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good > > > "performance" bike. > > > > Citation, please. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
RE: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Whatta waste! I woulda ate that. Is it still there? From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on behalf of rob markwardt [robmar...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:48 PM To: RBW Owners Bunch Subject: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog Fat tires might be faster but they are also better at smashing apples in the road...I love to run over apples. Today, however, I hit the mother lode and the fatties did the the trick. http://www.flickr.com/photos/77502424@N00/7737776696/ Carry on. On Aug 7, 6:57 pm, Steve Palincsar wrote: > On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 19:39 -0500, Eric Platt wrote: > > Regarding "wider is faster" - first reference Bicycle Quartery Volume > > 4, Number 1 page 43 "I have found that lightweight, wide, supple tires > > at lower pressure are at least as fast as less supple tires at higher > > pressures." > > Bicycle Quarterly Volume 5, Number 1, page 23 "2. Wider tires are > > faster" > > Bicycle Quarterly Volume 9, Number 1, page 63 "For example, in our > > real-road testing of tire performance, we found that wider tires, run > > at lower pressures, can be as fast as (if not faster than) narrow > > tires at ultral-high pressure." (Citing the test in Volume 5, Number > > one above.) > > > So, yes, I guess no one ever said wider tires are faster. > > Look down, Eric. The 'claim' was "wider is ALWAYS faster." Your > quotations demonstrate that claim was not made. > > > > > I really need something better to do with my time. > > Accuracy counts when you are quoting someone. > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Platt > > St. Paul, MN > > > On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:40 PM, Steve Palincsar > > wrote: > > On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:37 -0500, Eric Platt wrote: > > > Now, I don't ride fast. And because of that, rarely ride > > with others. > > > And the skinniest tire I have is a 700x37. But if wider is > > always > > > faster, then the Surly Moonlander with the 4.5 inch wide, > > incredibly > > > supple tires must the the fastest bike out there. > > > Nobody has ever made either claim. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > > rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch > > +unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > > rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch > > +unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Jan noted CNC'd cranks from the '80s and '90s, and mentioned Topline. I can vouch for the delicacy of Topline Superlights! I broke one at the crank-bolt hole by torquing the bolt a wee bit too much. OTOH, the friend of my brother who, at 6'4" and 250 lb at race weight in his 20s (later, in early middle age, he had, said my bro, a 52" chest) made my much-bigger-than-I brother (6'2", 200 lb in his prime) look small, used the same cranks, in a 180 length, on one of his racing bikes, this back in the very early '90s. He torqued one of the arms so much he bent it; sent it back to Topline who bent it back and returned it. Patrick "38" long jacket, 29" waist -- at age 32, and whose inseam used be larger than his waist -- but that was 25 years ago" Moore, who sho' ain't gonna tell you his waist and chest measurements today. On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote: [snip] > In the real world these CNC products* have outstanding records. > > blessings, > Michael > * Michael referred to CNC'd cranks, the WI ones in particular, as well as other parts like Paul brakes. -- "When in Rome, do as they done in Milledgeville." Flannery O'Connor - Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW http://resumespecialties.com/index.html - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 14:47 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote: > Jan noted CNC'd cranks from the '80s and '90s, and mentioned Topline. > I can vouch for the delicacy of Topline Superlights! I broke one at > the crank-bolt hole by torquing the bolt a wee bit too much. > > OTOH, the friend of my brother who, at 6'4" and 250 lb at race weight > in his 20s (later, in early middle age, he had, said my bro, a 52" > chest) made my much-bigger-than-I brother (6'2", 200 lb in his prime) > look small, used the same cranks, in a 180 length, on one of his > racing bikes, this back in the very early '90s. He torqued one of the > arms so much he bent it; sent it back to Topline who bent it back and > returned it. I broke 3 Avocet crank arms on my commuter. After that I went to the LBS (Performance at the time) and said I didn't care what it looked like, how much it weighed or what it cost, I wanted a crank that would not break. They sold me a Cook Brothers Racing crank, said a MTB racing crank was built to take any abuse so it ought to do fine commuting. This was a CNC'd aluminum crank. I broke a crank arm crossing 15th St. right in front of the Washington Monument and was dumped into the road, scraped up pretty good with blood on the pavement (unlike the other 3 broken crank arms, where I escaped without injury or blood loss) and then the light changes and the cars start accelerating right at me so I hurriedly drag myself and my bike out of their path. I never rode that bike again. Stripped some parts off it -- the brakes are on my Kogswell P/R porteur right now -- and eventually swapped the frame for a copy of _The Dancing Chain_. The guy I swapped with traded in the frame for a big discount on a Cannondale tandem, which he and his wife still ride, most recently on a 1200k randonnee in Colorado. Anybody else here who has broken 4 crank arms? Or do I hold the RBWorld Record? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 20:19 -0700, Jan Heine wrote: > would be better off if they worried less about > speed and performance. (I once met at a restroom who was desperately > trying to get her bike computer to work again. It seemed that without > the computer, she could not continue her ride. I helped her align the > sensor and magnet, and she was very grateful. I felt like saying to > her: "Just Ride!") Sure, only it can be very hard to follow a cue sheet in unfamiliar territory when you don't have any idea of your mileage. Also, a couple of minor annoyances that troubled me on a 70 mile ride last Sat. when my computer quit: - now my mileage total for that bike will be off for the rest of the year - until the screen blanker timed out, I kept seeing that big zero on the computer, reminding me yet again it wasn't working -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
> > > Sure, only it can be very hard to follow a cue sheet in unfamiliar > territory when you don't have any idea of your mileage. I haven't used a computer for randonneuring in years and haven't had any problem. Folks, I know we can do it. We can take this thread to 150 post if everyone pitches in. Let's do it! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/xDJUfiJruvIJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Thursday, August 9, 2012 10:00:26 AM UTC-5, Mike wrote: > > Folks, I know we can do it. We can take this thread to 150 post if > everyone pitches in. Let's do it! Here's to 150-posted threads! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Azkr2cNDMm0J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 08:00 -0700, Mike wrote: > > Sure, only it can be very hard to follow a cue sheet in > unfamiliar territory when you don't have any idea of your > mileage. > > > I haven't used a computer for randonneuring in years and haven't had > any problem. Right. And when my daughter was 2 years old we went to Boston, walked around in the park looking for the ducks from _Make Way For Ducklings_. A dozen years later we were on a bike tour and saw a hammered dulcimer player at the Peters Valley Craft Fair. He had a bunch of record albums set up for sale around where he was playing. The records had a picture on the cover of him playing sitting in front of a big fountain. She takes a look and says she knows where that fountain is located, and tells me the name of the park and the street location: the park we were in when she was 2 years old, and where she has not been since then. How many other people can do that? I know lots of people who can't get tires on without tire jacks or levers. I had to help one on today's ride. (OK, he has a legitimate excuse, having injured his hands in a fall a couple of months ago.) The fact that you can do something extraordinary doesn't mean anyone else can, or that they should be forced to try. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
We're gonna hit 150 for sure. I can feel it! As for computers, you want to use one? Go for it. But it's not essential. And I see folks perseverating over GPS files and mileage on computers. You have a cue sheet, look up from your handlebars and follow it. It's amazing to think that anyone could finish PBP back in the old days without a computer or GPS. On Thursday, August 9, 2012 12:53:37 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: > > On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 08:00 -0700, Mike wrote: > > > > Sure, only it can be very hard to follow a cue sheet in > > unfamiliar territory when you don't have any idea of your > > mileage. > > > > > > I haven't used a computer for randonneuring in years and haven't had > > any problem. > > Right. > > And when my daughter was 2 years old we went to Boston, walked around in > the park looking for the ducks from _Make Way For Ducklings_. > > A dozen years later we were on a bike tour and saw a hammered dulcimer > player at the Peters Valley Craft Fair. He had a bunch of record albums > set up for sale around where he was playing. The records had a picture > on the cover of him playing sitting in front of a big fountain. > > She takes a look and says she knows where that fountain is located, and > tells me the name of the park and the street location: the park we were > in when she was 2 years old, and where she has not been since then. > > How many other people can do that? > > I know lots of people who can't get tires on without tire jacks or > levers. I had to help one on today's ride. (OK, he has a legitimate > excuse, having injured his hands in a fall a couple of months ago.) > > The fact that you can do something extraordinary doesn't mean anyone > else can, or that they should be forced to try. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/YHVw2ZRglucJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 14:30 -0700, Mike wrote: > > As for computers, you want to use one? Go for it. But it's not > essential. And I see folks perseverating over GPS files and mileage on > computers. You have a cue sheet, look up from your handlebars and > follow it. It's amazing to think that anyone could finish PBP back in > the old days without a computer or GPS. I rode with bike clubs for 20 years before getting a computer. Back in the early days, the best use of a computer was as a conversation starter at the rest stops, comparing accuracy and listening to people complain when they forgot to start it back up. But not everybody knows how far 2.8 miles is, or has the faintest clue where they are. I got to feel it all over again the first time I rode a brevet in the dark. I had rigged up a light and I could see the cue sheet (even though it was so bright it dazzled me) but I couldn't see the computer. Also, I had a small accumulating error because I'd switched tires from Grand Bois Cypres 700x30 to Pasela 700x32s, so the tires were around 1.4% smaller. So there I was, in the dark. Cue sheet said turn on so and so road, easy to miss, unmarked. No idea what my actual mileage was. In an unfamiliar area. In the dark. Knowing if I screwed up, I'd have to retrace. Bonus miles on top of 25% farther than I'd ridden in years (and that last was one of the most memorable, worst rides of my entire life). It was one of those "walking through the dark hours of the soul" moments I'll probably remember for a long time to come. As for PBP, don't they put out signs, like they do on Bike Virginia? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
And Steve, if we're ever riding together on a brevet and i ask you how many miles until the next turn or control, just telle to shut up. --mike -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/YwMR87evgwEJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
some people just have good observational skills and spot various clues that all together make them good at finding their way... I prefer not to use computers or GPS as they become sort of a crutch you rely on. ~mike Carlsbad Ca. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/riIzBNPEn_cJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
150? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/oQn-ciXvMXIJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
It should say "just tell me to shut up." We did it! 150! Group hug! On Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:44:13 PM UTC-7, Mike wrote: > > And Steve, if we're ever riding together on a brevet and i ask you how > many miles until the next turn or control, just telle to shut up. > > --mike > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/TYAtWuNaFY4J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
I, for one, welcome our new, non-computer-using, randonneuring overlords... On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Mike wrote: > >> Sure, only it can be very hard to follow a cue sheet in unfamiliar >> territory when you don't have any idea of your mileage. > > > I haven't used a computer for randonneuring in years and haven't had any > problem. > > Folks, I know we can do it. We can take this thread to 150 post if > everyone pitches in. Let's do it! > > -- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Interesting blog entry (and comments/replies) from Jan Heine's blog
Late to the party. Love you guys. On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Mike wrote: > It should say "just tell me to shut up." > > We did it! 150! Group hug! > > > On Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:44:13 PM UTC-7, Mike wrote: >> >> And Steve, if we're ever riding together on a brevet and i ask you how >> many miles until the next turn or control, just telle to shut up. >> >> --mike >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/TYAtWuNaFY4J. > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > -- Bill Gibson Tempe, Arizona, USA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
