Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 12:08:56 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Joe, that's why I like the SunXCD better than the TA Pro-5-Vis - the flare 
> in the arms gives it a wider footprint, clears possible contact with chain, 
> chainSTAYS, kickstand, FD cage, 
>
sorry 

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

Joe, that's why I like the SunXCD better than the TA Pro-5-Vis - the flare 
in the arms gives it a wider footprint, clears possible contact with chain, 
chainrings, kickstand, FD cage, 


and especially Simplex chainguard ("clearance" with the Pro-5-Vis)

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 12:00:08 PM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I'm a narrow-Q dissenter. The Riv Silver cranks on my Clem H were so 
> narrow that I kept shifting my feet almost off the sides of the pedals. 
> Narrow Q, not for everyone!

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Joe Bernard]

I'm a narrow-Q dissenter. The Riv Silver cranks on my Clem H were so narrow 
that I kept shifting my feet almost off the sides of the pedals. Narrow Q, not 
for everyone!

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

ps - found this on VO blog

First, Pro-5-Vis cranks have about the narrowest Q factor, or tread, of any 
crank made. That's a good thing for most of us. In fact some experts claim 
that most riders pedal more efficiently on low Q-factor cranks. But there 
is a small percentage of riders who are more comfortable on with a wider 
crank. You probably know who you are and you should not buy Pro-5-Vis 
cranks. Simply using a longer bottom bracket, as the article suggests, will 
throw off your chain line and, in my experience, may result in balky 
shifting.

The other bit I wanted to correct is that all these cranks did not go to 
Japan, nor were they re-imported from Japan. You can just look in our stock 
room to see that.

Which brings us to the bigger issue of, "Will they be made again?" We were 
told, twice, that the last production run would be it. Forever; period; no 
more; finished. But apparently this past run sold so quickly that that 
decision was reconsidered, according to both Jan and my French contacts, 
and there may indeed be more runs. I'm happy about that since they really 
are great cranks. But I feel like I misled our customers by repeating what 
I'd been told about there being no more ever made. My apologies.

Here is what I wrote previously about these cranks:

One
 
reason why so many people like the TA crank is that it has about the lowest 
Q-factor (width) of any crank ever made. This is because the crank arm is 
straight and very close to the outer chainring. So front derailleurs that 
have thick outer plates sometimes hit the crankarm, But all Campy models 
and many others work. These cranks will work with modern drivetrains, even 
10-speed. Another reason to use TA Pro Vis 5 cranks is that they can 
replace a triple crank when set up as a double. You can run 28t and 46t 
rings with a 12-27 cassette (for example) and have almost the same range as 
a triple, but with a lot less overlap. Rings 26 to 68 teeth 
 are available. By the way, TA 
sells the cranks and rings separately; there are no stock combinations. So 
why did these wonderful cranks go out of production? The big chainrings, 
above 50t or so, are too flexible for racing. And they are very expensive.


On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 11:13:01 AM UTC-6, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> That's beautiful, Ron. 
> What's the Q on these cranks on your bikes? 
>
> Philip 
> Santa Rosa, CA
>
> On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 5:22:19 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

Thanks Phillip, I couldn't tell you the math, but they're about as vertical 
as a crank can get, with the square taper buried far to the outside 
Here's the reason I used SunTour FD1300 - figured how to attach the Simplex 
chainguard using a computer board standoff, and the Simplex hardware with 
one of the French M3s tapped to M5



This *3x5 half-step plus granny 
*
 
is the best drivetrain I ever designed.  


On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 11:13:01 AM UTC-6, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> That's beautiful, Ron. 
> What's the Q on these cranks on your bikes? 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Philip Williamson]

That's beautiful, Ron. 
What's the Q on these cranks on your bikes? 

Philip 
Santa Rosa, CA

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 5:22:19 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> The accolade of Crisp Front Shifting was given on another thread, and I 
> didn't want to seem to take exception with that accolade where it was 
> given.  
> I'm posting my comments on this thread in case anybody wants to reference 
> it for following up on their own version of James' 3-speed.  
> No front ring setup shifts quicker and crisper than a TA cyclotouriste 
> ring stack.  It's because the side-to-side spacing on the rings is so 
> small.  
> The narrow ring spacing would be a limitation with a mountain cassette, 
> but with the single rear cog, it would be the very slickest way to copy 
> James.  
> I'm running two bikes with Sun XCD crank arms and TA ring stack triples.  
> Best buy on the crank arms were from Japan suppliers, and best buys (and 
> widest choice) on the TA rings were from UK and EU suppliers.  
>
> 
>
> This shifts with your favorite road double FD, here Shimano 600, also 
> running SunTour FD1300 Cyclone on the other drivetrain.  
>
> Each of these drivetrains began with a venerable used TA Pro V crank arm 
> set, and eventually got upgraded to the SunXCD.  Most of us have forgotten 
> what low-Q really means until we have to deal with those crank arms.  The 
> Sun XCD version is an upgrade over the original, because where they give up 
> Q is a slight outward flare on the arms, making them a much better match 
> with modern wider rear spacings and chainstays, and also giving easy 
> clearance for setting up the FD cage.  
>
> The big set-up thing with these is BB width and asymmetry.  The 3x7 just 
> above is running 121mm SKF with 4mm offset spacer.  My other 3x5 is on a 
> 125mm Phil BB with factory 5mm offset, and 2 more mm dialed in the BB cup.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

The accolade of Crisp Front Shifting was given on another thread, and I 
didn't want to seem to take exception with that accolade where it was 
given.  
I'm posting my comments on this thread in case anybody wants to reference 
it for following up on their own version of James' 3-speed.  
No front ring setup shifts quicker and crisper than a TA cyclotouriste ring 
stack.  It's because the side-to-side spacing on the rings is so small.  
The narrow ring spacing would be a limitation with a mountain cassette, but 
with the single rear cog, it would be the very slickest way to copy James.  
I'm running two bikes with Sun XCD crank arms and TA ring stack triples.  
Best buy on the crank arms were from Japan suppliers, and best buys (and 
widest choice) on the TA rings were from UK and EU suppliers.  



This shifts with your favorite road double FD, here Shimano 600, also 
running SunTour FD1300 Cyclone on the other drivetrain.  

Each of these drivetrains began with a venerable used TA Pro V crank arm 
set, and eventually got upgraded to the SunXCD.  Most of us have forgotten 
what low-Q really means until we have to deal with those crank arms.  The 
Sun XCD version is an upgrade over the original, because where they give up 
Q is a slight outward flare on the arms, making them a much better match 
with modern wider rear spacings and chainstays, and also giving easy 
clearance for setting up the FD cage.  

The big set-up thing with these is BB width and asymmetry.  The 3x7 just 
above is running 121mm SKF with 4mm offset spacer.  My other 3x5 is on a 
125mm Phil BB with factory 5mm offset, and 2 more mm dialed in the BB cup.  

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Patrick Moore]

You are right; with such wide range, there are certainly advantages to 3
rings over 3 cogs, given the designs of the frame and the hub, and given
the smaller range of most available 3 speed freewheels (16-22 seems to be
typical).

FWIW, I've recently set up my 2 Riv Roads with triple gearing (getting
old): single fixed cog + flip side 17/20 Dingle for '99, 17/19 Dingle +
flip side 22 t fw on the '03. Gearing is 76/67/57 on the '99, 70/63/54 on
the '03. Both more or less match the jumps of the famous SA ASC hub. I
shift by moving the chain by hand, of course.

This actually works out pretty well. I do my longer (such as they are)
rides on the '99, so for a climbing outbound route I can put it in the
67/57, then switch to the 76 homebound. With the '03, I tend to ride more
flat routes, and with the main side Dingle it's relatively easy to switch
to the 63 for headwinds. But the 54 is there "just in case." So far,
actually, I still haven't shifted that much.



On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 9:03 AM James Warren 
wrote:

> Because 20/22 is a lot less than 40/32, and I want a LOW lowest gear for
> steep dirt hillclimbing.
>
> Also, the following is secondary and wasn’t thought of in the design
> phase, but it’s a lot simpler shifting the front since the bike has no
> derailleur hanger. That cable-less derailleur as shown would not be in the
> optimum spot if it had a cable and were used as a shifter. But as a
> tensioner, it’s just fine.
>
>
> On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:56 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
> James: Why 3 rings, fd and rd instead of 3 cogs and rd, particularly since
> a tooth in the rear gives more difference than a tooth in the front? Not
> complaining, just asking.
>
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 9:48 AM James Warren 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I first set this up this way in 2005. I recently made it better with a
>> Suntour microdrive crank with chainrings of 42-32-20 and an old (AF) front
>> derailleur, which in theory isn’t supposed to work with that crank, but
>> it’s perfect. The rear derailleur is just an extreme chain tensioner, no
>> cable in it. My bike set up this way was in RR36, but now with this crank,
>> it has a wider range of gears. My thinking was to set up three distinct
>> single-speedish modes. When things get challenging and I’m in the middle
>> ring, I stand or push harder and try not to shift. And then I have the 20T
>> option for the crazy or sustained hills (especially the dirt ones, which I
>> live near and love to climb.)
>>
>> Anyway, I love this set up. Also upgraded with Bosco bar, excellent
>> Sunrace underbar thumbie with fake clicks, which is perfect for the three
>> rings. And over the years, I got an attractive downtube clamp-on cable
>> stop. Quickbeams are so versatile.
>>
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> **
>
>
>
>
>
> *Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
> though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
> hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
> --- J.R.R. Tolkien
> ---

Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

thanks James, I completely understand - I think you did great - I could 
ride that bike here, including the 14% grade to get home

On Friday, February 8, 2019 at 12:22:01 PM UTC-6, James Warren wrote:
>
>
> Thanks, Ron. When I first set it up in ‘05, I tried a standard tensioner, 
> and it couldn’t do enough for the chainring differences I wanted. I really 
> demand that granny/grandpa gear. So at that point, I went with derailleur 
> and was lucky that the local bike shop had one that could clamp onto the 
> dropout with no hanger.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 8, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Ron Mc > 
> wrote:
>
> I like it. 
> Guess you're using RD just for chain wrap.  Curious whether there's a 
> chain tensioner with enough chain wrap to cover the ring range. 
>
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[James Warren]

Thanks, Ron. When I first set it up in ‘05, I tried a standard tensioner, and 
it couldn’t do enough for the chainring differences I wanted. I really demand 
that granny/grandpa gear. So at that point, I went with derailleur and was 
lucky that the local bike shop had one that could clamp onto the dropout with 
no hanger.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 8, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:
> 
> I like it. 
> Guess you're using RD just for chain wrap.  Curious whether there's a chain 
> tensioner with enough chain wrap to cover the ring range. 
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Just keep in mind that the more tooths there are on a cog/ring the smaller the 
delta of adding or removing a tooth. This is why I love the 4t difference of 
the dingle cog, as it gives a range of 14” whereas a 4t difference with the 
chainrings is less, albeit small enough as to be insignificiant for many.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

On his new Merc with half-steps, this is how my friend Tad climbed a 
wheelchair switchback ramp to our stop

  

and how I climbed it on my silver International


On Friday, February 8, 2019 at 9:55:00 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> ps - on 3 of my 4 bikes, excepting the indexed thumbie compact double x 9, 
> I always shift most often in front - using rear as a final adjustment.  
> Two of those are half-step plus granny, but same on my Campy road bike - I 
> usually keep it in one of two rear cogs and shift front for start/stop, or 
> even the steep nob-type hills we have here.  
> I pick on my friends who always shift rear and don't even know how their 
> FDs function as being lazy.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

ps - on 3 of my 4 bikes, excepting the indexed thumbie compact double x 9, 
I always shift most often in front - using rear as a final adjustment.  
Two of those are half-step plus granny, but same on my Campy road bike - I 
usually keep it in one of two rear cogs and shift front for start/stop, or 
even the steep nob-type hills we have here.  
I pick on my friends who always shift rear and don't even know how their 
FDs function as being lazy.  

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Ron Mc]

I like it. 
Guess you're using RD just for chain wrap.  Curious whether there's a chain 
tensioner with enough chain wrap to cover the ring range. 

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[James Warren]

Patrick,

I love that you love that I love it.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:21 AM, 'Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  wrote:
> 
> James, quirky, delightful, purpose-built, and hilarious. I love it that you 
> love it. Grin.
> 
> Joe, one way to achieve 3 freewheel or fixed cogs is a double (ENO freewheel, 
> Surly Dingle Cog) and third cog on a flip/flop hub. Manual shift, stop 
> required.
> 
> With abandon,
> Patrick
> 
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[James Warren]

Awesome, Joe!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:32 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> 
> James, you probably saw both. Will did his Chev with a double crank but no 
> shifter, then he saw mine, then he added the shifty bits. As you say, it's a 
> great way to get the SS experience while still having a big hill option. 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[James Warren]

Awesome, Joe!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Joe Bunik  wrote:
> 
> James,
> Why not leave shifting to your shifter bikes?
> =- Joe Bunik
> Walnut Creek, CA
> 
>> On 2/7/19, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>> James, you probably saw both. Will did his Chev with a double crank but no
>> shifter, then he saw mine, then he added the shifty bits. As you say, it's a
>> great way to get the SS experience while still having a big hill option.
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Joe Bunik]

James,
Why not leave shifting to your shifter bikes?
=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

On 2/7/19, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> James, you probably saw both. Will did his Chev with a double crank but no
> shifter, then he saw mine, then he added the shifty bits. As you say, it's a
> great way to get the SS experience while still having a big hill option.
>
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Joe Bernard]

James, you probably saw both. Will did his Chev with a double crank but no 
shifter, then he saw mine, then he added the shifty bits. As you say, it's a 
great way to get the SS experience while still having a big hill option. 

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

['Deacon Patrick' via RBW Owners Bunch]

James, quirky, delightful, purpose-built, and hilarious. I love it that you 
love it. Grin.

Joe, one way to achieve 3 freewheel or fixed cogs is a double (ENO freewheel, 
Surly Dingle Cog) and third cog on a flip/flop hub. Manual shift, stop required.

With abandon,
Patrick

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[James Warren]

Thanks, Joe. I think I saw that Cheviot and liked it. Or am I conflating it 
with Riv Will’s? Because he did this “By One” type deal as well.


> On Feb 7, 2019, at 9:02 AM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> 
> James: I've always liked that bike. I double-ized a Cheviot with a single 
> rear cog, double front and fd based on your idea. 
> 
> Patrick: How would you get triple cogs on a singlespeed hub?
> 
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[James Warren]

Because 20/22 is a lot less than 40/32, and I want a LOW lowest gear for steep 
dirt hillclimbing.

Also, the following is secondary and wasn’t thought of in the design phase, but 
it’s a lot simpler shifting the front since the bike has no derailleur hanger. 
That cable-less derailleur as shown would not be in the optimum spot if it had 
a cable and were used as a shifter. But as a tensioner, it’s just fine.


> On Feb 7, 2019, at 8:56 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> 
> James: Why 3 rings, fd and rd instead of 3 cogs and rd, particularly since a 
> tooth in the rear gives more difference than a tooth in the front? Not 
> complaining, just asking.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 9:48 AM James Warren  > wrote:
> 
> I first set this up this way in 2005. I recently made it better with a 
> Suntour microdrive crank with chainrings of 42-32-20 and an old (AF) front 
> derailleur, which in theory isn’t supposed to work with that crank, but it’s 
> perfect. The rear derailleur is just an extreme chain tensioner, no cable in 
> it. My bike set up this way was in RR36, but now with this crank, it has a 
> wider range of gears. My thinking was to set up three distinct 
> single-speedish modes. When things get challenging and I’m in the middle 
> ring, I stand or push harder and try not to shift. And then I have the 20T 
> option for the crazy or sustained hills (especially the dirt ones, which I 
> live near and love to climb.)
> 
> Anyway, I love this set up. Also upgraded with Bosco bar, excellent Sunrace 
> underbar thumbie with fake clicks, which is perfect for the three rings. And 
> over the years, I got an attractive downtube clamp-on cable stop. Quickbeams 
> are so versatile.
> 
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> A new road or a secret gate,
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> Tomorrow we may come this way
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> Towards the Moon or to the Sun.
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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Joe Bernard]

James: I've always liked that bike. I double-ized a Cheviot with a single rear 
cog, double front and fd based on your idea. 

Patrick: How would you get triple cogs on a singlespeed hub?

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Re: [RBW] Wide range 3-speed QB refurbished

[Patrick Moore]

James: Why 3 rings, fd and rd instead of 3 cogs and rd, particularly since
a tooth in the rear gives more difference than a tooth in the front? Not
complaining, just asking.

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 9:48 AM James Warren 
wrote:

>
> I first set this up this way in 2005. I recently made it better with a
> Suntour microdrive crank with chainrings of 42-32-20 and an old (AF) front
> derailleur, which in theory isn’t supposed to work with that crank, but
> it’s perfect. The rear derailleur is just an extreme chain tensioner, no
> cable in it. My bike set up this way was in RR36, but now with this crank,
> it has a wider range of gears. My thinking was to set up three distinct
> single-speedish modes. When things get challenging and I’m in the middle
> ring, I stand or push harder and try not to shift. And then I have the 20T
> option for the crazy or sustained hills (especially the dirt ones, which I
> live near and love to climb.)
>
> Anyway, I love this set up. Also upgraded with Bosco bar, excellent
> Sunrace underbar thumbie with fake clicks, which is perfect for the three
> rings. And over the years, I got an attractive downtube clamp-on cable
> stop. Quickbeams are so versatile.
>
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-- 



**





*Still 'round the corner there may waitA new road or a secret gate,And
though we pass them by today,Tomorrow we may come this wayAnd take the
hidden paths that runTowards the Moon or to the Sun.*
--- J.R.R. Tolkien
---
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching
Other professional writing services
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Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique

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