Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

Simpliphi has been around since 2002, so they actually are older than 
their 10 year old warranty.  Most other companies can't make that 
claim.  As far as reliability, each 3.8 kWh is independent, so you can 
just shut down a bad unit and send it in for repair. I'm building 
systems with 4 to 6 units usually.


  I too have long term questions, especially about corrosion in marine 
environments, and long term issues with electronics such as capacitors 
drying out. I think the BMS may go out befor the projected 8000 cycles 
to 100% DOD.


I've been a part of the solar experiment since the 80s, and we've come a 
very long ways, which is amazing.  For all the questions we have, lead 
acid is definitely going to be come obsolete in our life times, so the 
sooner we all get savvy with newer technologies the better.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/23/20 7:36 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
Discover Battery has been around since just after WWII. I think that 
since each Li battery is native to the system voltage, the way to get 
some redundancy is to simply have more than one battery, most systems 
will anyway. Then if one fails you can use the other ones until the 
failed one is replaced or fixed. A lead battery would be less prone to 
catastrophic failure, alkaline batteries even more so if you can 
handle the cost and other issues, so there is something to be said for 
that. I have multiple inverters and battery banks and it has come in 
handy when there are failures (inverters).


Brad

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote:


Blue planet has money behind them and already years of
manufacturing, many more years then some of the other
manufacturers out there
Jerry

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy mailto:frene...@psln.com>> wrote:

Wrenchers,

         I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past
regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an
element of a
need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion
batteries and especially the "total units" like the:

https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/

are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and
forget it",
no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these
companies
are new, which will survive well into their warranty period? 
Its a
double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion
world, how
will they survive?

         Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in
2 volt
cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more
conventional system,
there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the
failed 2
volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell). Maybe
all I'm
asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or
its BMS? or
the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon
to know.

         Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn
something.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Insight2 Phone App service down?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Yes ! CI2 has been down since friday for 3 of us. Probably some pretty
big things going on when you can't go to work. I heard the server needs to
be re-booted. My droid table app works at the house but both apple and
droid phones are down.   
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:50:57
-0700, Jeff Clearwater  wrote:  Hi Wrenches,

 A client alerted me to the
fact he can't connect via the Conext Solar app on his phone for the last
few days. I tried and got the same thing "Service Unavailable - try again
later".

 The website works fine - but anyone else having the same result
with the phone app?

 Sandra H?

 Thanks,

 Jeff

 -- 
~~~
  Jeff
Clearwater
 Village Power Design
 linkedin [3] 
 www.villagepowerdesign.com
[4]
 cell - 413-559-9763
 ~~~  

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[4]
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[RE-wrenches] Insight2 Phone App service down?

[Jeff Clearwater]

Hi Wrenches,

A client alerted me to the fact he can't connect via the Conext Solar 
app on his phone for the last few days.  I tried and got the same thing 
"Service Unavailable - try again later".


The website works fine - but anyone else having the same result with the 
phone app?


Sandra H?

Thanks,

Jeff

--
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Village Power Design
linkedin 
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cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Bradley Bassett]

Discover Battery has been around since just after WWII. I think that since
each Li battery is native to the system voltage, the way to get some
redundancy is to simply have more than one battery, most systems will
anyway. Then if one fails you can use the other ones until the failed one
is replaced or fixed. A lead battery would be less prone to catastrophic
failure, alkaline batteries even more so if you can handle the cost and
other issues, so there is something to be said for that. I have multiple
inverters and battery banks and it has come in handy when there are
failures (inverters).

Brad

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Blue planet has money behind them and already years of manufacturing, many
> more years then some of the other manufacturers out there
> Jerry
>
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy  wrote:
>
>> Wrenchers,
>>
>>  I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past
>> regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a
>> need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion
>> batteries and especially the "total units" like the:
>>
>> https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/
>>
>> are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it",
>> no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies
>> are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a
>> double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how
>> will they survive?
>>
>>  Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt
>> cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system,
>> there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2
>> volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm
>> asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or
>> the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.
>>
>>  Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> Bill Battagin, Owner
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> 530.284.7849
>> CA Lic 874049
>> www.frenergy.net
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Blue planet has money behind them and already years of manufacturing, many
more years then some of the other manufacturers out there
Jerry

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy  wrote:

> Wrenchers,
>
>  I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past
> regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a
> need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion
> batteries and especially the "total units" like the:
>
> https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/
>
> are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it",
> no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies
> are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a
> double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how
> will they survive?
>
>  Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt
> cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system,
> there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2
> volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm
> asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or
> the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.
>
>  Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> www.frenergy.net
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi David, I have used "Iron Edison" they will custom build a LiFe PO
battery to your specifications
There may be a way to combine LiFe and Pb acid, using the LiFe PO for
cycling and the Pb for high energy.
If cycling is a smaller portion of the load.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 3:00 PM David Katz  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Bill,

I too have the same issues and the only reliable (long term) way offgrid
is to have both chemistries. You get the best of the new battery types
(partial Soc tolerant) and the reliability of a a LA battery without any
electronics adding  new ways to lose power. By having both hooked up to
their own inverter you get redundancy and more days of autonomy. It costs
more and people need training but peace of mind is very good thing. Good
for the user and good for the practitioner. 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:06:08 -0700, frenergy  wrote:
> Wrenchers,
> 
>              I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past 
> regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a 
> need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion 
> batteries and especially the "total units" like the:
> 
> https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/
> 
> are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", 
> no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies 
> are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a 
> double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how 
> will they survive?
> 
>              Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt
> cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system,

> there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 
> volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm 
> asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or

> the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.
> 
>              Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> www.frenergy.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[frenergy]

Wrenchers,

            I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past 
regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a 
need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion 
batteries and especially the "total units" like the:


https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/

are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", 
no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies 
are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a 
double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how 
will they survive?


            Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt 
cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system, 
there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 
volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm 
asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or 
the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.


            Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Kent Osterberg]

Ray,

I agree it is a kludgey way to accomplish a low battery cut off. But, it 
doesn't change the no load draw issue. No load draw is still a problem 
even if the normal low battery cut off adjustment has enough range. At 
least with most lithium batteries there is a secondary shutoff.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 3/23/2020 9:13 AM, Ray wrote:


That was our kludgey plan, if Schneider can't do a firmware update.  
The issue I have with that, is the no load draw of the inverter is 
still 25 watts, so eventually it could still pull the batteries into 
full shutdown.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/23/20 10:30 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is 
self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote 
power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there 
aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a 
Morningstar relay driver.


None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of 
firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium 
batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been 
addressed.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean.

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the 
high.

Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs.

Jay



On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  
wrote:


 Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? 
What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't 
see it in the manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is 
still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires 
manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having 
serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to 
set the LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower 
DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries. Otherwise, I love 
the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. 
In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual
recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit
higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage
correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher
LVD setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed
shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There
are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above
48V. Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text
209 813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar  
wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at
44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was
firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It
would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one
needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak
LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this
helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
don't" 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

What ever battery you may decide on make sure it's both Fire rated and UL
listed. I have had customers require this from their insurance companies
Jerry
NABCEP solar inspector
Jerry

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 8:06 AM Sandra Herrera  wrote:

> Hi Ray,
>
> We have been working with most of the leading lithium manufacturers for
> several years now.  Some have already implemented closed-loop integration
> such as Discover, other we are working with open-loop integration with
> Simpliphi, Fortress, Blue Ion, others.
>
> For the manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with
> them, which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation.
>
>
>
> I have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this
> includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the
> Schneider Electric setting.
>
>
>
> With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC for many of these settings,
> that will integrate better than using voltage. Additional work of
> integrating these manufactures using Gateway through Modbus communication.
>
> I know that at times it seems very simple to make a programming change,
> but we as the manufacturers must look at the full picture of all the
> applications of the product and not create a conflict. An alternative would
> be a Simpliphi specifically firmware, this sounds very simple, but it is
> cost-prohibitive, as the product would have to be UL tested again. Each
> time we have to run a product through UL it will add to the cost of the
> product. It is a balance between the feature and staying competitive.
>
>
>
> I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any question
>
>
>
> Sandra Herrera
>
> sandra.herr...@se.com
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries
>
>
>
> [External email: Use caution with links and attachments]
> --
>
>
>
> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8
> kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
> are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated
> 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).
>
> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech
> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of
> the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into
> their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct
> this problem.
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
>
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
>
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David Katz
>
>
>
> ___
>
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
>
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
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> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

That was our kludgey plan, if Schneider can't do a firmware update.  The 
issue I have with that, is the no load draw of the inverter is still 25 
watts, so eventually it could still pull the batteries into full shutdown.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/23/20 10:30 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is 
self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote 
power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there 
aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a 
Morningstar relay driver.


None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of 
firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium 
batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been 
addressed.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean.

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the 
high.

Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs.

Jay




On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

 Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? 
What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see 
it in the manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still 
enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start. With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires 
manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having 
serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to 
set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower 
DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love 
the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. 
In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual
recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit
higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage
correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed
shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There
are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above
48V. Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar  
wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at
44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was
firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It
would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one
needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak
LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text
209 813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the
pricing has recently gotten much more competitive.  As
it's names states, its simple.  Each 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Another way to buy more time with simplyphi would be to minimize LBCO
hysteresis voltage and LBCO delay time. This would shut down the inverter
sooner. They appear to be set at the defaults and could go lower. 

Dave
Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:06:10 +, Sandra Herrera 
wrote:  

Hi Ray, 

We have been working with most of the leading
lithium manufacturers for several years now. Some have already implemented
closed-loop integration such as Discover, other we are working with
open-loop integration with Simpliphi, Fortress, Blue Ion, others. 

For the
manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with them,
which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation. 

I
have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this
includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the
Schneider Electric setting. 

With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC
for many of these settings, that will integrate better than using voltage.
Additional work of integrating these manufactures using Gateway through
Modbus communication. 

I know that at times it seems very simple to make a
programming change, but we as the manufacturers must look at the full
picture of all the applications of the product and not create a conflict.
An alternative would be a Simpliphi specifically firmware, this sounds very
simple, but it is cost-prohibitive, as the product would have to be UL
tested again. Each time we have to run a product through UL it will add to
the cost of the product. It is a balance between the feature and staying
competitive. 

I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any
question  

Sandra Herrera 

sandra.herr...@se.com 

FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
BEHALF OF Ray
 SENT: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM
 TO:
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion
Batteries   

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

-

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the
pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states,
its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top,
weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry
handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel
conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy
setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).  

Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD
above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.
Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them
as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources
into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to
correct this problem.  
Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 3/20/20
3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: 

Hello Wrenches,   

I am working with some
people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion
battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.   

They
are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
batteries.   

Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.   

Thanks,   

David Katz  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Sandra Herrera]

Hi Ray,
We have been working with most of the leading lithium manufacturers for several 
years now.  Some have already implemented closed-loop integration such as 
Discover, other we are working with open-loop integration with Simpliphi, 
Fortress, Blue Ion, others.
For the manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with them, 
which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation.

I have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this 
includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the Schneider 
Electric setting.

With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC for many of these settings, that 
will integrate better than using voltage. Additional work of integrating these 
manufactures using Gateway through Modbus communication.
I know that at times it seems very simple to make a programming change, but we 
as the manufacturers must look at the full picture of all the applications of 
the product and not create a conflict. An alternative would be a Simpliphi 
specifically firmware, this sounds very simple, but it is cost-prohibitive, as 
the product would have to be UL tested again. Each time we have to run a 
product through UL it will add to the cost of the product. It is a balance 
between the feature and staying competitive.

I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any question

Sandra Herrera
sandra.herr...@se.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]





We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten 
much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit 
has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit 
smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole 
combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No 
monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, 
specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically 
makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech support has been 
abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies 
in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come 
out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760
On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 
volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge 
controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi 
batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the 
Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Kent Osterberg]

I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is self 
contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote power 
off could still be used with another remote switch. If there aren't 
enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a Morningstar relay 
driver.


None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of 
firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium batteries, 
it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been addressed.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean.

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the high.
Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs.

Jay




On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

 Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What 
is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in 
the manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still 
enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires 
manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious 
trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the 
LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends 
the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 
volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In 
addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends
48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage
correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut
down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There
are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above
48V. Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar  
wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at
44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was
firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It
would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one
needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak
LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing
has recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's
names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80
amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. 
We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all
the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No
monitoring, but they do have an 

[RE-wrenches] Real world production data for bifacials? - Correction

[g...@remotepowerinc.com]

Wrenches, We don’t have snow all year in Fairbanks. Meant to say “all winter”.  
Anyway, onward. 

> Wrenches, good health to you and your loved ones.  I have a client that 
> thinks he wants bifacial modules since his site is in the Alaskan arctic and 
> they have snow a significant amount of the year.  I've been installing 
> standard modules on racks that can be set at 90 deg in the fall and set back 
> to ~lat -15deg in the spring.  They are snow free in the spring when it's 
> clear and cold and they definitely make more power than the ones I see siting 
> with snow on them all WINTER.  A 6.2 kW array will put out 5.8kW AC under 
> perfect conditions (90 deg tilt, solar noon, clear sky, cold etc.)
> 
> Anyway, I browsed the archives and in general looks like they require special 
> racking , clamps and raise the price significantly.  Have any of you 
> installed some and seen increased power production in snow country and if so 
> has it made up for the extra cost, extra labor etc.?  Have the modules been 
> reliable? I'm looking for data on installed systems and maybe recommendations 
> on where I can get price and availability on some so I can help my customer 
> make an informed decision.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Greg Egan
> 
> Remote Power Inc.
> 
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean. 

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the high. 
Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs. 

Jay



> On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:
> 
>  Jay,
> 
> Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What is the 
> low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in the manual. 
> 
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
> 
> 
>> On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:
>> Ray, 
>> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at 
>> what ever voltage you want?
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the 
>>> beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve 
>>> left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and 
>>> avoid the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark 
>>> start, but it still requires manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we 
>>> have been having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's 
>>> inability to set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher 
>>> (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love 
>>> the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.  
>>> 
>>> Ray Walters
>>> Remote Solar
>>> 303 505-8760
>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
 Wrenches
 Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that 
 when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the 
 flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.
 
 On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar  
 wrote:
> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
> LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
> 
> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of 
> Charge)
> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of 
> Charge)
> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will 
> vary.
> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and 
> adjust as necessary.
> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve 
> “fuel in the tank”."
> 
> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
> 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.
> 
> Allan
> 
>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
>>> many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
>>> talking about please?
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> 
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>>> text 209 813 0060
 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
  wrote:
 
 Hi Ray,
 
 Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and 
 the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that 
 got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
 discontinued products.
 
 XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
 
 XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
 guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
 are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
 
 I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
 Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. 
 
 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
 "we go where powerlines don't"
 http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
 e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
 text 209 813 0060
 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:
 
 We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
 gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
 an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors 
 to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
 guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
 (including Outback). 
 
 Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
 basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech 
 support