Re: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure.

[RE Ellison]

That’s the procedure I’ve been using for years William, it gives us the best 
chance of being accurate.

Just as a note I get a 2 gallon sprayer from Home Depot or somewhere (get the 
one with the plastic rod, the spark show is not worth it) and use that to put 
distilled water into the batteries. it’s a lot faster than a glug glug jug and 
a lot safer than a funnel

Just some thoughts,
Bob Ellison



> On Feb 23, 2021, at 6:12 PM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Open the link. It’s all there. 
> 
> William Miller
> www.millersolar.com
> 
>> On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> William,
>> How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge 
>> before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge?
>> Howie
>> Howie Michaelson
>> Sun Catcher
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service
>> 802-272-0004
>> 
>>> On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller  
>>> wrote:
>>> Wrenches:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, should 
>>> I check SG before or after watering?  I performed the test I had promised 
>>> to do.  The answer is, add water first.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Here is the report on my test:  Link
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity:
>>> 
>>> 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to 
>>> bring water to top of moss-guard if needed.
>>> 
>>> 2. Run Equalizing charge.
>>> 
>>> 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended 
>>> level.
>>> 
>>> 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte.
>>> 
>>> 5. Test and record Specific Gravity.
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out…
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> William
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Miller Solar
>>> 
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>> 
>>> 805-438-5600
>>> 
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>> 
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure.

[William Miller]

Bob:

We are way beyond putting our faces over an open battery cell with a 
flashlight. We use professional auto-stop fill systems from Philadelphia 
Scientific.  I highly recommend the X-Gun with hydrofill cart. 

https://www.phlsci.com/product-lines/battery-watering-gun/model-gunx/

Thanks though. 

William Miller
www.millersolar.com

> On Feb 24, 2021, at 6:12 AM, RE Ellison  wrote:
> 
> 
> That’s the procedure I’ve been using for years William, it gives us the best 
> chance of being accurate.
> 
> Just as a note I get a 2 gallon sprayer from Home Depot or somewhere (get the 
> one with the plastic rod, the spark show is not worth it) and use that to put 
> distilled water into the batteries. it’s a lot faster than a glug glug jug 
> and a lot safer than a funnel
> 
> Just some thoughts,
> Bob Ellison
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 23, 2021, at 6:12 PM, William Miller  wrote:
>> 
>> Open the link. It’s all there. 
>> 
>> William Miller
>> www.millersolar.com
>> 
 On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie Michaelson  
 wrote:
 
>>> 
>>> William,
>>> How much of a difference did you see in readings after an equalize charge 
>>> before adding water vs. after adding water and doing a short bulk charge?
>>> Howie
>>> Howie Michaelson
>>> Sun Catcher
>>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
>>> Solar Electric & Heat Pumps Systems Sales & Service
>>> 802-272-0004
>>> 
 On Tue, Feb 23, 2021, 5:27 PM William Miller  
 wrote:
 Wrenches:
 
  
 
 If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing batteries, 
 should I check SG before or after watering?  I performed the test I had 
 promised to do.  The answer is, add water first.
 
  
 
 Here is the report on my test:  Link
 
  
 
 Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to check Specific Gravity:
 
 1. Verify water level in cells is above the moss-guard. Add water only to 
 bring water to top of moss-guard if needed.
 
 2. Run Equalizing charge.
 
 3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring electrolyte to recommended 
 level.
 
 4. Apply bulk charge voltage to batteries for 30 minutes to mix 
 electrolyte.
 
 5. Test and record Specific Gravity.
 
  
 
 It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out…
 
  
 
 William
 
  
 
  
 
 Miller Solar
 
 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
 
 805-438-5600
 
 www.millersolar.com
 
 CA Lic. 773985
 
  
 
  
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Checking Specific Gravity, correct procedure.

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Ummm, I think you need to add run a normal battery charge cycle first to
your list. Pretty dangerous to EQ a bank without doing bulk/absorb first,
especially if you are at a clients house! You really do not know the state
of the battery!  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 20:50:58 -0800, William Miller 
wrote: US Batteries L16s. 

 William Miller  www.millersolar.com   
 On Feb
23, 2021, at 5:04 PM, Jay  wrote:

Hi William   I'm wondering what
specific batteries you did this test on   Thx Jay 
 On Feb 23, 2021, at
4:32 PM, William Miller  wrote:

   Open the link. It's all there. 


William Miller  www.millersolar.com   
 On Feb 23, 2021, at 2:32 PM, Howie
Michaelson  wrote:

William, How much of a difference did you see in
readings after an equalize charge before adding water vs. after adding
water and doing a short bulk charge?
Howie
 Howie Michaelson
Sun
Catcher
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm)
Solar Electric & Heat Pumps
Systems Sales  border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">  


Wrenches: 

If you recall, I had asked the question: After equalizing
batteries, should I check SG before or after watering? I performed the test
I had promised to do. The answer is, add water first. 

Here is the report
on my test: Link [4] 

Conclusion: Here is the proper order of steps to
check Specific Gravity: 

1. Verify water level in cells is above the
moss-guard. Add water only to bring water to top of moss-guard if needed.


2. Run Equalizing charge. 

3. Add distilled water to all cells to bring
electrolyte to recommended level.  

4. Apply bulk charge voltage to
batteries for 30 minutes to mix electrolyte. 

5. Test and record Specific
Gravity. 

It seems obvious now, but I had to test it out... 

William


Miller Solar 

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 

805-438-5600


www.millersolar.com [5] 

CA Lic. 773985 

   
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[3] mailto:will...@millersolar.com
[4]
https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/case_studies/26%20Specific_Graviity/Specific_Gravity.html
[5]
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[6]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Glenn Burt]

Time and materials, or quote a replacement...-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, 
so please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- Original message--From: 
Jeremy CoxonDate: Wed, Feb 24, 2021 1:17 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: 
Subject:[RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?Hi all,I’m sure we’re not alone in 
this so I thought I’d find out what you all do in these situations:  We were 
contacted by a person that wants us to repair their system.  I ask the standard 
questions you’d expect and also for pictures of their system.  Here’s the pic 
(below).  My question is what would you say to this person? 
Best Regards,Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21Vice PresidentMWBE Certified


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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Since it would not pass a home insurance or building department
inspection, it would have to be start fresh. Once you get your hands on it,
it is yours. Good Luck!  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57
-0500, Jeremy Coxon  wrote: Hi all,   I'm sure we're not alone in this so I
thought I'd find out what you all do in these situations: We were contacted
by a person that wants us to repair their system. I ask the standard
questions you'd expect and also for pictures of their system. Here's the
pic (below). My question is what would you say to this person?
Best
Regards,
Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
Vice President
MWBE Certified  


Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Ray]

I concur with Dave: Delete and start over.  Its actually faster and 
cheaper than trying to figure out why they did things the way they did, 
and having callbacks where you discover more problems you didn't see the 
first time, etc.  I'll reuse as much of the stuff as I can, even cable, 
but that needs a full DC load center like an E Panel.


Also as Dave said, once you touch it, you own it.  If they can't afford 
to have you redo it, then you can't afford to take it under your wing.  
Time and materials is the way I do these, because you never know what 
else you might find on day 3 of the rebuild.  I've gotten to the point 
now, that I won't even take these on, unless we are providing a majority 
of new equipment:  Adding to the array, replacing the batteries, new 
inverter, switching to 48v, etc.


Every compromise you get talked into now, you will regret later. I've 
come back 10 years after, and had my techs say: " Who did this$#@%!"  
and I had to hang my head in shame and explain how we were trying to 
work with what was there, blah, blah.  I will repeat: once you touch it, 
you own it.  Your local reputation is represented in the work that you 
leave behind.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 2/24/21 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


Since it would not pass a home insurance or building department 
inspection, it would have to be start fresh. Once you get your hands 
on it, it is yours. Good Luck!


  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
 e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57 -0500, Jeremy Coxon 
 wrote:



Hi all,
I'm sure we're not alone in this so I thought I'd find out what you 
all do in these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants 
us to repair their system.  I ask the standard questions you'd expect 
and also for pictures of their system.  Here's the pic (below).  My 
question is what would you say to this person?



Best Regards,
Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
Vice President
MWBE Certified


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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Jason Szumlanski]

Ditto to Ray and I would add that you have no idea how the batteries were
treated or mistreated. I would insist on replacing the batteries or having
a very clear and strong disclaimer that you take no responsibility for the
condition of the batteries or their longevity.

Unfortunately, I had a similar looking system in front of me on Monday and
the 48V battery bank was sitting at three volts. I could not evaluate the
Radian or the Mate which the customer reported not working properly prior
to the battery getting depleted. How are you supposed to work with
something like that? I can replace the battery, but it could open up a
whole can of worms with other equipment being inoperable.In fact, that is
likely the reason the batteries got depleted in the first place. These are
no win situations.

Jason

On Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 2:02 PM Ray  wrote:

> I concur with Dave: Delete and start over.  Its actually faster and
> cheaper than trying to figure out why they did things the way they did, and
> having callbacks where you discover more problems you didn't see the first
> time, etc.  I'll reuse as much of the stuff as I can, even cable, but that
> needs a full DC load center like an E Panel.
>
> Also as Dave said, once you touch it, you own it.  If they can't afford to
> have you redo it, then you can't afford to take it under your wing.  Time
> and materials is the way I do these, because you never know what else you
> might find on day 3 of the rebuild.  I've gotten to the point now, that I
> won't even take these on, unless we are providing a majority of new
> equipment:  Adding to the array, replacing the batteries, new inverter,
> switching to 48v, etc.
>
> Every compromise you get talked into now, you will regret later.  I've
> come back 10 years after, and had my techs say: " Who did this$#@%!"  and I
> had to hang my head in shame and explain how we were trying to work with
> what was there, blah, blah.  I will repeat: once you touch it, you own it.
> Your local reputation is represented in the work that you leave behind.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 2/24/21 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>
> Since it would not pass a home insurance or building department
> inspection, it would have to be start fresh. Once you get your hands on it,
> it is yours. Good Luck!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57 -0500, Jeremy Coxon
>   wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm sure we're not alone in this so I thought I'd find out what you all do
> in these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair
> their system.  I ask the standard questions you'd expect and also for
> pictures of their system.  Here's the pic (below).  My question is what
> would you say to this person?
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
> Vice President
> MWBE Certified
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Dustin Douglas]

Wrenches,



You can have 4800W on L1 and 0W on L2. It has huge 240V peak power. But you are 
correct that some 120V inductive loads >3/4hp can be an issue. We recommend 
rewiring those massive motors to 240V (most are convertible on the motor). The 
1400W limit is with DC Loads. A heat gun on high is an AC load but on low, it 
only uses 1/2 of the sinewave (DC load). Our limit for DC loads (hair dryer, 
leaf blower, drill, blender, curling iron, heat gun only on low setting) is 
1400W.


Thank you and have a blessed day,

Dustin Douglas

Engineering Support Lead

(972)575-8875 ext. 108

http://www.Sol-Ark.com









 On Tue, 09 Feb 2021 23:23:22 -0600 Nick A Lucchese  
wrote 


I agree with many of you on waiting awhile longer until these issues are sorted 
out. While I definitely think there is plenty of room beyond our usual 
favorites for another robust battery based inverter to offer I don’t intend to 
embark on another frustrating adventure at mostly my expense. At this point I’m 
more excited for the Midnite inverters more than anything and know once they’re 
released I won’t feel like I made a mistake. Meanwhile I’ll definitely be 
sending wishes of success to Sol-Ark. I’ve heard a lot of good things and will 
remain optimistic and hopeful it’s shortcomings will be resolved soon without 
needing to stack multiple units or a transformer.

Nick A Lucchese

On Feb 9, 2021, at 12:17 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
 wrote:


Yes that has happened with 2 of mine Jerry.  I like the Transformer Devils that 
I know. Might check these out in 2 or 3 years. The whole all in one does not 
really appeal to me either but I will keep an open mind, in 2 or 3 years! 

 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 10:19:44 -0800, Jerry Shafer 
 wrote:

It is also interesting how sol ark sells over the counter to end users and also 
through distributors but at nearly the same price so it makes it difficult for 
our distributors to carry the sol ark products. Jerry



On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 7:42 AM Jay  wrote:

It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can't run a 15 amp 120v air 
compressor
 
 I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed installer 
who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and specifically mentioned 
that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw inverter down. He didn't 
mention if there is a fix coming. 
 
 I guess I'll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out. 
 
 Jay
 
 Peltz power. 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar)

[Jeremy Coxon]

Thanks guys, it was more of a check to see if I’m just being too, oh I don’t 
know - cautious.  We get a fair number of these calls and we do exactly as you 
all do, i.e. either start over or pass more often (these types of systems are 
done in shoe strings anyway so they don’t want to hear our answers or prices).  
Maybe 15yrs ago I would have helped out, but lots of hard knocks since then.  I 
will add that it’s a really sad state of affairs when we come across these and 
they weren’t just homeowner DIY, instead they were “installed” by other solar 
contractors.  That’s a whole different story.  I always seem to hang on to pics 
like this, some kind of morbid fascination I guess.  They make great slide show 
material as a compare and conrast.

Jeremy Coxon NABCEP 
Certified MWBE

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Tump]

It shows you have been in business for 15 years? RUN don’t walk. REDO once you 
put a wrench to this YOU and your 15 years can quickly find yourself out of biz.
> On Feb 24, 2021, at 1:13 PM, Jeremy Coxon  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you all do in 
> these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair 
> their system.  I ask the standard questions you’d expect and also for 
> pictures of their system.  Here’s the pic (below).  My question is what would 
> you say to this person?
> 
>  
> 
> Best Regards,
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
> Vice President
> MWBE Certified
> 
> 
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>  www.SWNL.net 
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> 
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Jesse Dahl]

Many moons ago I asked this same list the same question and got about the same 
answer. I tried to help one customer, got sued for not “listening” to them when 
they told me what to do, even though we fixed the issue. Spent money on 
attorneys, missed days of work.

That was it for me ever doing that type of work again. Now, if I was given a 
chance to do it over, I’d have better paper work in place, all that. Much of 
the trouble could’ve been avoided if I had been more suspicious of people and 
better protected. I don’t mess with this and I get a handful of opportunities 
for remote hunting/fishing projects like this. I just don’t mess with it at all 
anymore. I can’t see ever doing it again. 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 24, 2021, at 3:43 PM, frenergy  wrote:
> 
> 
> Gosh,  What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> I would offer my service to remove and replace this pile of   and then 
> discuss what they need a PV system to power with them filling out a load 
> sheet, essentially start from scratch.  Provide an estimate (if you get that 
> far), If they are not interested in going this route then game over.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> www.frenergy.net
> On 2/24/2021 10:13 AM, Jeremy Coxon wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I’m sure we’re not alone in this so I thought I’d find out what you all do 
>> in these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair 
>> their system.  I ask the standard questions you’d expect and also for 
>> pictures of their system.  Here’s the pic (below).  My question is what 
>> would you say to this person?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Best Regards,
>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
>> Vice President
>> MWBE Certified
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Dan Fink]

I tackle this sort of work frequently, as I only work off the grid and
mostly deal with smaller systems for cabins, fishing and hunting lodges,
and such, often for land buyers/sellers, Realtors, and insurance agents. By
far the most common violation I see out in the bush is lack of a vented
battery enclosure and lack of conduit and enclosures, as shown here.
Obviously a very detailed system report is in order, and a big caveat about
those batteries; they don't look well-cared for.
The Midnite breaker panel is a keeper, enclosure for the charge controller,
some flex conduit all around and a Midnite Mini DC box with breaker would
give the shunt a home and neaten things up quickly.
Then after commissioning I'd stick some data acquisition on it to get a
feel for those batteries.
>From my perspective, this is a pretty typical situation in remote areas,
and would take less than a day's work to tighten up.
I AM assuming that charge controller and inverter are UL listed, though.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor™ for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector™
Certified Professional Inspector™
d anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342
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[RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Hilton Dier]

I’ll say it again: The most important clients are the ones you turn away. The 
penny pinching, pound foolish, never satisfied, paranoid, DIY-without-asking, 
ear bending, time sucking, slow paying nightmares that we have all had. The key 
is to see the warning signs on the way in, a skill that comes from grim 
experience.

The “can you cob this back together for $200?” job is a non starter.

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say? (Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar)

[Chris Sparadeo]

Hi Jeremy,

I run into situations this this all am the time. Misinformed DIY work
strikes again. Luckily, as PV installers, we have an out. We can quickly
and easily point to the NEC and tell the customer that there are certain
codes and standers we must adhere to. Siting code infractions and giving
tangible pathways of corrective measure is key. Outlining a game plan in
writing and explicitly listing what is not included in your scope of work
(i.e. everything downstream of the MDP) is an important step in documenting
the process. If the customer refuses these upgrades or wants to cut
corners, don’t lose sleep over it and move on with life. You’ll be better
off for it.

Best,

Chris

On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 7:32 PM Jeremy Coxon 
wrote:

> Thanks guys, it was more of a check to see if I’m just being too, oh I
> don’t know - cautious.  We get a fair number of these calls and we do
> exactly as you all do, i.e. either start over or pass more often (these
> types of systems are done in shoe strings anyway so they don’t want to hear
> our answers or prices).  Maybe 15yrs ago I would have helped out, but lots
> of hard knocks since then.  I will add that it’s a really sad state of
> affairs when we come across these and they weren’t just homeowner DIY,
> instead they were “installed” by other solar contractors.  That’s a whole
> different story.  I always seem to hang on to pics like this, some kind of
> morbid fascination I guess.  They make great slide show material as a
> compare and conrast.
>
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP
> Certified MWBE
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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