Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors

[Bill Hoffer]

True, but that are doing all kinds of secret sauce doping trying to up the
efficiencies too!

On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 9:48 AM Jay  wrote:

> Thx bill
>
> A side question, i thought most of the color had to do with AR coatings
> and not the actual poly silicon?
>
> Jay
>
> On Nov 6, 2021, at 9:18 AM, Bill Hoffer  wrote:
>
> 
> Jay
>
> That is possible.  Also the sorted cells are packaged in boxes that do not
> match the number needed per module (and there is always some breakage
> during soldering and layup) so it is likely that they are mixing lots at
> some point or during repairs of strings that get broken.  Mixing higher
> power cells with lower power will reduce the flash testing results and they
> will have to sell that module for less.  Color matching not so much a
> problem with flash testing but will change the operational temp of cells
> and maybe not be as good as performers in the field.  When I see different
> shades of cells I just think they are not paying attention to details in
> their process and I start to question where else they may be slipping up
> that really matters!  Again no data to prove that gut feel is correct!
> Just think presentation is everything!
>
> On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 7:54 AM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Many OEMS outsource cells, is it possible the cells came from different
>> cell companies?
>>
>> Jay
>> Peltz power.
>>
>> On Nov 5, 2021, at 7:27 PM, Bill Hoffer  wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar
>> cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono).  It is getting harder to the
>> difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to
>> improve efficiency.
>>
>> Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching.   Most
>> module manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module
>> will underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are
>> probably little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable
>> differences noted for color variations.
>>
>> That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no
>> heating of the cell.  The color variation and reflectivity of the cell
>> surface will impact the cell temperature in real life.  Is it enough to
>> make a real performance issue, probably not.
>>
>> IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is
>> taking if their cells are not color matched.  It is not hard to color match
>> and power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so.  The
>> product looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak
>> efficiency.  All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and
>> power output.  I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their
>> suppliers to the same standard QC.  However I have no data to verify that
>> and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance.
>>
>> Bill Hoffer
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be
>>> different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached
>>> photo for an example.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay

That is possible.  Also the sorted cells are packaged in boxes that do not
match the number needed per module (and there is always some breakage
during soldering and layup) so it is likely that they are mixing lots at
some point or during repairs of strings that get broken.  Mixing higher
power cells with lower power will reduce the flash testing results and they
will have to sell that module for less.  Color matching not so much a
problem with flash testing but will change the operational temp of cells
and maybe not be as good as performers in the field.  When I see different
shades of cells I just think they are not paying attention to details in
their process and I start to question where else they may be slipping up
that really matters!  Again no data to prove that gut feel is correct!
Just think presentation is everything!

On Sat, Nov 6, 2021, 7:54 AM Jay  wrote:

> Many OEMS outsource cells, is it possible the cells came from different
> cell companies?
>
> Jay
> Peltz power.
>
> On Nov 5, 2021, at 7:27 PM, Bill Hoffer  wrote:
>
> 
> Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar
> cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono).  It is getting harder to the
> difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to
> improve efficiency.
>
> Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching.   Most
> module manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module
> will underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are
> probably little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable
> differences noted for color variations.
>
> That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no
> heating of the cell.  The color variation and reflectivity of the cell
> surface will impact the cell temperature in real life.  Is it enough to
> make a real performance issue, probably not.
>
> IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is taking
> if their cells are not color matched.  It is not hard to color match and
> power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so.  The product
> looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak
> efficiency.  All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and
> power output.  I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their
> suppliers to the same standard QC.  However I have no data to verify that
> and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance.
>
> Bill Hoffer
>
> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be
>> different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached
>> photo for an example.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panels appear to be different colors

[Bill Hoffer]

Like any manufacturing process there are variations, especially solar
cells, regardless of type ( poly vs mono).  It is getting harder to the
difference between poly and mono this days due to coating processes to
improve efficiency.

Cells can be sorted by output (watts) and or. Color matching.   Most module
manufacturers make sure the watts are matched otherwise a module will
underperform, so generally from an output point of view there are probably
little difference in wattage of each cell. Ie not measurable differences
noted for color variations.

That being said this is all based on flashing at room temps with no heating
of the cell.  The color variation and reflectivity of the cell surface will
impact the cell temperature in real life.  Is it enough to make a real
performance issue, probably not.

IMHO I have to wonder what other shortcuts a module manufacturer is taking
if their cells are not color matched.  It is not hard to color match and
power match cells and it usually does not cost more to do so.  The product
looks more professional and should operate in the field at peak
efficiency.  All the module manufacturers I work with sort by color and
power output.  I am guessing the lower quality guys are not holding their
suppliers to the same standard QC.  However I have no data to verify that
and like I said probably not a serious hit in performance.

Bill Hoffer

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021, 3:50 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I'm looking for a succinct way to explain why panels appear to be
> different colors even though they are the same orientation. See attached
> photo for an example.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rail-less Racking

[Bill Hoffer]

Cory

I tried a railless S-5 system on a metal roof and will never do it again!
Looks great and very professional.  The clearance under the modules is a
real problem for wire management  and I had to switch out a bad
microinverter and it was really difficult compared to have a rails.  Had to
disconnect all adjoining modules from the S-5 which allowed things to shift
a bit making replacement an absolute pain in the butt.  It was a steep roof
too which added to the hasslebad choice for my first try ,but it was a
triagular array shape due to shading issue sand dormer locations.  That was
why I opted for railess, since the cutting of rails would have been very
time consuming.

Bill

Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
420 SE Wyers St ,# 1823.
P.O. Box 1823
White Salmon, WA 98672
bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com Cell:(509)679-6165
sunergyengineeringservices.com

On Sun, May 17, 2020 at 1:55 PM Corey Shalanski  wrote:

> I am wondering if anyone on the List has significant experience installing
> rail-less racking systems (Quick Mount PV Quick Rack, Roof Tech E Mount
> AIR, SnapNrack RL Universal, etc.) and can speak to the pros and cons
> versus rail-based systems?
> Also wondering if anyone has strong opinions regarding the lesser air gap
> below modules with rail-less systems and how much, if at all, that might
> affect production? *bonus points awarded for providing quantitative data
>
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Jah Light Solar
> Portland, Jamaica
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suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Convex modules

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay

Not sure what you are implying by this comment.  I do not believe that
glass is pre bowed by any glass manufacturer that I know of nor on purpose
by a module manufacturer.  Glass is manufactured shipped and stored flat on
a pallet.  How were the modules Shipped? If glass down with no packing in
the middle of the glass to prevent sagging from truck vibrations,  I would
say that is the best explanation.  Also I believe it depends a lot on how
the glass is attached ( or not attached to the frame.  Worse case no
adhesion or just a rubber gasket would allow sagging from shipping glass
face down or up.  Best case a fully cured adhesive before shipping.  If
they are using PV adhesive caulk, (special w/o curing agents that can
corrode electronics) and ship before it is cured it almost as bad as no
adhesive.  It is pretty much known that the best seal the edge of the glass
in the frame with adhesive, cure properly and then ship on edge rather than
glass up or down in the flat IMHO.

Bill

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 11:57 AM Jay  wrote:

> I’m wondering if it’s designed to account for gravity sag once the modules
> are mounted. Lots of modules I’ve seen especially the larger format ones
> seem to be concave with time.
>
> If I understand correctly, these are bowed up which would allow them to
> settle flat?
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Nov 17, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Kristopher Schmid 
> wrote:
>
> 
> The banding is a good thought, Glenn, except that the one module that was
> oriented the opposite way was deformed in the opposite direction.  This
> rules out the forklift idea, too.  I will check specs.  I doubt that
> testing will reveal anything immediate, but I'm a bit concerned about the
> potential long term effects.
>
> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 9:12 AM Kristopher Schmid 
> wrote:
>
>> So, I opened up a pallet of Jinko 400 watt half cell modules yesterday
>> and noticed that every module was convex to the glass side.  The center was
>> 1/4 inch higher than the corners.  Has anyone else seen this?  Should I be
>> concerned?  Manufacturing issue?  Intentional?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kris
>>
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P.O. Box 1823
White Salmon, WA 98672-1823
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mission PVs

[Bill Hoffer]

It is actually better for minimum shipping damage stacked on their sides.
There is a right side to start removing and a really wrong side which you
will know immediately!  Usually marked start removing this side, follow
manufacturer instruction when in doubt.  I am not familiar with Mission,
but others I have used stacked on their sides there is a wrap of shrink
wrap between modules to contain the stack after the bands are cut.  Each
module is wrapped as they stack them.  If you choose the wrong side the
whole stack will drop. Be prepared the first time with a buddy to hold the
stack just in case you choose wrong!  Once you figure it out, it should be
smooth sailing.

Bill

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019, 6:27 PM Bill Battagin  wrote:

> Its after hours and I need to load for tomorrow...
>
> Embarrassing question  I finally ran out of SolarWorld PVs and just
> received a few pallets of Mission MSE310SQ8T PVs.  They are stacked on
> their edges. hmmm.  I took off the top cardboard, there are still 2
> bands running around the 26 PVs horizontally and the cardboard around
> the sides.  I think only those who have used Mission will know my
> conundrumWhat's the next step?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Cell Temperature Variation

[Bill Hoffer]

Corey

I consulted and did some independent tests with a module manufacturer who
had some modules with low Power output and curve traces similar to yours.
They however could detect no abnormal cracks in the modules with EL
testing. I also detected no issues on the thermal image at no or low power,
but when loaded I saw a similar pattern and temperature difference.
Remember that the curve tracer is applying a linear load from 0 volts and
no load at Isc to MPPT ( knee of the curve).  From MPPT the load goes
exponential to infinity at Voc (open circuit) or full load.  Also No cells
are perfectly Isc matched and some variation is common, especially with
high power perc cells and seldom will effect the curve trace as much as
your case or the one that I had.  I do not believe that it is a series
resistance issue because the slope of the curve from the MPPT to the Voc
has not changed.  The majority of the slope change in the curve is between
Isc and MPPT, which is indicative of a Shunt resistance.  in my case I
determined that the modules at the plant had mixed different cells from
different power bins and so the lower Isc cell passes some power forward
bias through the cell, but cannot pass the full current through that route
so it reverse bias a portion of the cell to pass the remainder of the
difference in Isc.  This causes a hotter cell.  So in many ways it is
acting like a shaded cell getting hotter (classic Isc mismatch).  Because a
cell in either reverse bias or forward bias is like a diode ( a leaky
switch) this may or may not be enough of a difference to trigger a diode (
junction boxes do not appear to be warmer indication a diode triggering),
or maybe it has and the continuous heat over time has caused the diode to
fail.  At least by the patterns I see in your modules that does not appear
to be the case.

So my first guess would be that you are seeing something similar to what I
saw, that is that the module maufacturer has produced a series of modules
with different power rated cells and the temperature difference is from
some level of reverse bias.  This should have been detected in the binning
of the modules unless these had a large +/- 5% tolerance ( which I would
never ever purchase). Regardless it has impacted your power output and
depending on the age and the nature of the module manufactures warranty I
would think that you have a warranty claim.

Caution as always it is hard to determine how much temperature difference
is enough to be an issue, especially if you did not adjust for emmissivity
and reflectivityin your images.  If you do not know how to do that you
should take a Thermal Imaging Level I class, otherwise you may freak out
whenever you see minor checkerboarding!.  I again think the curve trace is
pretty good indication at the irradiance that you were tracing at.

Bill

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Corey Shalanski 
wrote:

> On a recent utility-scale PV installation we noticed a strange phenomenon
> on a single string on a single inverter. An IV curve (attached) reveals
> that the measured performance characteristics for this string (solid line)
> are significantly less than the expected values (dotted line). For
> reference, the ambient temperature was 31°C and the irradiance was 1010
> W/m².
>
> The phenomenon that more so caught our attention is apparent on a thermal
> image (also attached) of the modules in this string. For lack of a better
> term I would describe the distribution of cell temperatures as resembling a
> "checkerboard" or "scattershot" (random) pattern, ranging between roughly
> 55°C and 70°C. Interestingly this phenomenon was only apparent while the
> inverter was operating, i.e. with the inverter turned off the modules
> revert to a much more uniform temperature distribution nearer to 55°C,
> instead varying by only a couple degrees across the entire module/string.
>
> There was no apparent physical damage to the modules.
>
> Can anyone offer any suggestions about what might be causing this
> phenomenon?
>
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Joule Energy
> New Orleans, LA
>
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White Salmon, WA 98672-1823
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] rail less standing seam attachments

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay
Just finished using S5PV railess on standing seam roof 12x12 pitch.  Worked
great, but wire management was challenging with minimal clearance under
modules.  Had to think ahead to make it work.  And still was a struggle.  I
also used 6 rather then 4 per module to even out the loads on the roof
panels.  I feel confident that it is solid, but I know how the roof was
connected to include proper clip spacing and screw size for maximum wind
load here in the Columbia Gorge and proper tacking of the top of the panel
under the ridge to prevent sliding down.  If I had it to do over I would
however have used rails to make wire management easier!

Bill

On Fri, Mar 30, 2018, 6:03 PM jay  wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I’ve got a client who is set on wanting to do rail less racking.   I’m
> just working with him on overall design, hes doing the work.
>
> Its not a large system.  16 modules on two roof orientations, ( 4 on one,
> 12 on the other)  with offset modules.  Standing metal seam roof that is
> being installed with solar in mind,  lots of fasteners.
>
> Hes very competent and pays attention to details.
>
> Any positive/negative recommendations.
>
> thanks in advance,
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Bill Hoffer]

Daniel

Why are we having to deal with low temp charging?  Litium batteries already
have cell temp monitoring and relays to shut down individual cells when
they over temp.  How hard would it be to open the relay at low temps too?
Seems like something the lithium battery folks should have already thought
of?

Bill hoffer

On Feb 28, 2018 8:15 AM, "Daniel Young"  wrote:

These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up
on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip
breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery
warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
them.

My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if
not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a
bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my
opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.

Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an
option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will
have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the
info, and the choice.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will require
a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes
Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (:

Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Hi Drake,
>
> I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a
> human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our
> set-it-forget it, automated world.
>
> One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge.
> Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off.
> For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery
> will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery
> back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at
a higher SoC.
>
> As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate
> the customer. Too often, this does not happen.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load,
> inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on.
> Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be
> less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble
> to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below
> freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing.
>
> If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with
> this technology.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: offgridso...@sti.net "RE-wrenches"
> 
> To:"RE-wrenches" 
> Cc:
> Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank
>
>
> Hello Daniel,
>
> I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have
> looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value
a bit.
> The high temp is just as bad in your case here.
>
> Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is
> not an issue?
>
> Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned
> space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living
> space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended)
> much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either.
>
> Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The
> LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.n

Re: [RE-wrenches] battery buss bar stock

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay

Just copper stock is not good enough necessarily...make sure it is
specified for electrical current carrying.  I have seen some spectacular
failures with people using plumbing pipe malled flat and drilled.  It is
was too soft to handle the heat at high currents!  I do not know the exact
specs, but it should be listed for that purposenot a good application
to go cheap!

Bill

On Dec 1, 2017 10:07 PM, "Matthew Sirum"  wrote:

> Greetings Jay,
>
> I second the Storm Power Components (formerly Storm Copper)
> recommendation   https://stormpowercomponents.com/
>
> In addition to Storm you may also like to take a look at:
>
> Farmers Copper http://www.farmerscopper.com/
>
> Watteredge Products (now renamed as parent company Southwire)
> http://www.watteredge.com/
>
> Electric Equipment & Engineering Company (EEE) http://eeeusa.com/
> EEE manufactures interconnects, bus bars, terminal plates, and etc for
> some of the industrial battery system companies.  If you are looking
> for cell interconnects for stringing 2-volt cells together they may be
> a resource.
>
> You may remember the custom DC bus system pictures I shared with you a
> while back; I sourced the large DC battery system circuit breakers
> from EEE and the C11000 copper bar stock and insulators came from
> Storm.  Here is the last contact I had with EEE: Mike Morroni, phone:
> 303.296.1476 ext: 21, email: mike.morr...@eeeusa.com
>
> As Tump mentioned, McMaster-Carr as well as Grainger and MSC also sell
> copper stock.
>
> Best regards,
>
> MATT
>
> Matthew Sirum
> P.O. Box 1227
> Greenfield, MA 01302-1227  USA
> phone: +1.413.773.0611
> email: matthewsi...@gmail.com
>
>
>   --  Original Message Below  --
>
> [RE-wrenches] battery buss bar stock
>
> jay jay.peltz at gmail.com
> Fri Dec 1 08:06:00 PST 2017
>
> HI All,
>
> I’m wondering if anyone has a good source for battery buss bar stock.
> Either pre made ones or stock I can use to make myself.
>
> It would be for larger Rolls GEL 2v in this case but other battery
> sizes/types as well.
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA and Tigo

[Bill Hoffer]

Matt

I believe that Itek Energy will be shipping either June 1 or July 1  with
Tigo ready modules.   Please contact contact Karl Unterschuetz -
ka...@itekenergy.com about sales.  They are calling for a pre-order since
they are transitioning from their old junctionbox to the Tigo.  Tell him
Bill Hoffer sent ya!  Good solid made in USA module, I have worked on the
product for them and extended testing to include PID and Bankability
testing to confirm warranty.  They are currently expanding into a new
larger plant around 3rd quarter this year.

iTek Energy at 3886 Hammer Drive, Bellingham WA 98226
itekenergy.com

Hope that helps!

Bill

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 7:38 AM, Matt Partymiller <
m...@solar-energy-solutions.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> We have been using Tigo for awhile on select sites.  The standard Tigo
> solution looks pretty identical to the Power+ package.  Overall we like
> the product and like that it now integrates with Sunny Portal. Tigo tech
> support is pretty good to work with though rarely returns calls.  Expect
> you will need to work with them for firmware updates which are not
> automatic.
>
> I am not sure we have encountered a failed Tigo out of the box (at least
> not that we have been able to identify).  We have encountered multiple
> failed Cloud Connects (internet communication device).  At present about 1
> in 10 never work but the good news is they have a new generation coming
> out with Power+.
>
> I would suggest reading Tigo compatibility guidelines closely.  Tigo is
> currently phasing out their 375W model in favor of the 475W model.  The
> 375 is not fully compatible with SMA (false arc faults).  The 475 is
> allegedly compatible though we have yet to use the new product (it just
> hit shores this month).  I don't believe 375 is listed anywhere on the
> unit so differentiating between it and the 475 could be difficult,
> especially since the part number for the 375 is a 4## number.  Make sure
> you don't get any old units through distribution.
>
> The system has a Gateway that wirelessly communicates with each module but
> needs to be hardwired from the roof back through the Cloud Connect device.
>  Three small gauge wires required.  We have been using an outdoor jacketed
> 600V 4-wire cable in conduit with DC conductors.  They say this can cause
> interference for monitoring purposes but I have yet to see it.  Kind of
> obnoxious finding a wire that meets those criteria (voltage, outdoors,
> three wires).
>
> Tigos can clip to module frames.  This eases installation and they seem to
> be pretty secure.  That said, the ideal solution are module-integrated
> Tigos which a number of manufacturers make but which never seem to be
> available in the US.  Trinasmarts for instance.
>
> Matt
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 9:48 am, Mark Frye wrote:
> > I was looking at the SMA web-site and it appears that the solution to
> > address 2017 module level shutdown is basically to incorporated Tigo
> > optimizers.
> >
> > That seems like a big win for Tigo.
> >
> >
> > Has anyone used the Power+ Solution yet?
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
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> (877) 312-7456
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>
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suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearing Snow From Modules

[Bill Hoffer]

Drake

Thermal shock is not a good thing at all for modules and it is the way we
verify test them for life cycling and bankability.  Yes I saw someone on a
hot day during a solar drag race hit the modules with a fire extinguisher
to cool them down in the hot sun and they survived for the race.  Unknown
what damage to the longer term life of the module can be done with all
those layers with very different thermal coefficients of expansion is hard
to say.  By the way they still lost to our team because we had a superior
variable drive transmission!  I am most concerned about tempered glass,
especially since they are getting thinner and thinner these days.  I have
seen tempered glass break much easier then you would think, almost for
looking wrong at it or a very small insignificant pressure in the wrong
spot.  Happens randomly every once in awhile on the module manufacturing
floor.  Of course modules are thermally cycled as part of their
qualifications and also for Bankability, but you would never risk putting
these modules into field service cause you just do not know how much damage
was done...even if they still meet specifications.  As long as you are
washing modules with a water temperature that is close to the module
temperature you should be OK.  IMHO modules may be cheap put not cheap
enough to risk thermal shock, so they should still be treated with the
respect and care they deserve as a product meant to last 20 years at 80%
output!  If a module manufacturer knew you thermal shocked them washing
them off I am sure that they would find a clause in their warranty to
weasel out of it!

Bill Hoffer

On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 6:19 PM, frenergy  wrote:

> Drake,
>
> I am no expert, BUT, about a year ago I covered an older
> not-in-service PV with a foot of snow on a 25 degree day and then hooked up
> a hose to a hot water faucet.  With a pistol grip sprayer I directed a
> solid stream of hot water at the PV.  It only took a second for that hot
> water to reach the PV's glass, no doubt cold from the snow.  I kept it
> there in one area for about 30 seconds, slowly widening the area of
> 'impact', much of the snow melting of course.
>
> Afterwards I carefully visually inspected the PV (it was an
> older Kyo) and could not find/see anything out of the ordinary, still
> tested to label specs (slight de-rating due to age) when placed in direct
> sun.
>
> Another note, several times I have sprayed cool tap water
> (around 45 degrees, F) on my in-service array on my shop to eliminate the
> snow.  It's a 12:12 pitch but it still took a good 15 minutes to clear it
> off. The array is 22, 60 cell PVs.  I have not any decrease in performance
> to date.
>
> Conclusion?  None really, I can't imagine 'washing' snowy PVs
> off with cool water could do any harm.  Whereas the hot water test,
> intuitively probably not smart.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849 <(530)%20284-7849>
> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net
>
> On 2/1/2017 11:13 AM, Drake wrote:
>
> Hi Wrenches,
>
> We have a lot of border line temperatures here that will not quit melt the
> snow off an array. We can lose production on a semi sunny, 28 degree day.
> During such a day, I was looking at my frost free water faucet and my
> array. Humm, I could easily hose the snow off.
>
> Is there a reason not to do that? Any ice or slush would not present a
> problem. Is there a danger to the modules from doing that?
>
> Maybe this would even work on a sunny day when the temperatures were
> colder? Could a module break? Anyone ever try this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <(740)%20448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SW series fuse rating

[Bill Hoffer]

Rebekah

I am not 100% sure but I think that there is often confusion between max
fuse and max reverse current.  When you list a module you request a fuse
rating , in this case 4 A and UL will test it by applying a max reverse
current of 1.75(max fuse rating) or 7 Amps with out a fuse to insure that
the module does not melt down.  Basically they are adding to the fuse
rating for a healthy safety factor.  The required fuse for this application
is of course 4A.  I think sometimes manufacturers(marketers) do not
understand the difference and like to report the higher number cause it
sounds better. I have had heated discussions with module and inverter
manufacturers over this in the past.  Would be nice if the industry would
grow up and report everything the same way or at least the way that make
sit clearer for installers and inspectors!

Bill

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Rebekah Hren 
wrote:

> Reverse current and max series fuse are not always the same, check out
> this Solar Frontier manual, pg 3:
>
>
> http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cs/groups/co_en_product/documents/document/mdaw/mdey/~edisp/c012760.pdf
>
>
> Rebekah Hren
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Kristopher Schmid  > wrote:
>
>> I just did a class exercise using the upcoming sw290 for sizing
>> conductors and OCPD and the calculation was such that a 20 amp fuse was
>> needed (rounding up from Isc x 1.56).  I hope that the maximum reverse
>> current on the spec sheet is also the maximum series fuse rating.
>>
>> Kris
>> On Mar 18, 2016 8:56 PM, "jay"  wrote:
>>
>>> HI All,
>>>
>>> I was looking at the SW cut sheet.
>>> It doesn’t mention series fuse rating.
>>>
>>> It does mention “maximum reverse current”
>>> Is this the same thing?
>>>
>>> Or where would I find the series fuse rating.
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> jay
>>>
>>> peltz power
>>>
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>
> --
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suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SW series fuse rating

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay
I believe that is the same.  I hate that they say it that way...very
confusing.  I think it comes from the way it is tested by UL.  They reverse
current  at 1.5 times the fuse rating to insure the fuse size is correct
(fuse plus safety factor).

Bill
On Mar 18, 2016 6:56 PM, "jay"  wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I was looking at the SW cut sheet.
> It doesn’t mention series fuse rating.
>
> It does mention “maximum reverse current”
> Is this the same thing?
>
> Or where would I find the series fuse rating.
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter identification quiz

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay

Eltek Theia HE-t,   highest efficiency transformer based inverter..97%..no
longer available!  Too bad damn good inverter!

Bill
On Jan 17, 2016 7:37 PM, "Jay"  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> Home power, latest issue 171,  page 18
>
> Has a photo of an inverter (display only no name)that wasn't doing a good
> job. Interesting problem, glad it wasn't mine.
>
>
> Anybody know what inverter that is?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Silicon energy

[Bill Hoffer]

WA Silicon Energy has been shut down for almost a year now, leaving behind
a lot of warranty claims for delaminated modules.  Not a pretty picture at
all.  Hope you have only the first generation modules, before they went to
a thinner lamination..

Bill
On Dec 18, 2015 3:51 PM, "Solar"  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I just read in the paper that the SiE plant here in MN just got rid of all
> its top management and only has two people left in the plant. It has halted
> manufacturing and doesn't know if it will reopen. Not shocking, it also
> says the plant in WA shut down recently. Any WA wrenches have news from
> that plant?
>
>
>
> Jesse Dahl
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> IBEW Local 292 - Electrician
> Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV testing

[Bill Hoffer]

Bill

Performance verification would be your first test that can be done with 2
clamp on meters ( idealy two Power meters like the Seaward Clamp Power
Meter ) , ie testing under load knowing the irradiance and cell
temperatures and measuring watts in and watts out of the inverter.  With
that data you should be able to tell if the array is at maximum power point
and/or if the Inverter is operating within spec.  You should account for
irradiance, cell temperature and Light Induced Power degradation ( 1% loss
per year unless module manufacturer warranty defines it differently),
voltage drop soiling etc...

IMHO Curve tracers are a huge investment in money and time to learn how to
get meaningful information out of them.  Also the 3 choices currently
available each have limitations that make it hard to decide which is the
best solution. That would be my last investment on the list of test tools.
Better to invest in a Insulation Resistance Tester and then something like
the PV150 tester ( which can also do DC Power measurements).

Bill

On Sun, Oct 4, 2015 at 6:56 PM, frenergy  wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
>As time passeth, we're bumping more into older PVs/arrays that have
> questionable outputs.  After minimizing the variables (dust, temps, sun
> angle, wiring, expected deterioration with age, etc) and still coming up
> with low numbers.  Testing individual PVs' Voc and Isc don't seem to tell
> the whole story as they often look good.
>
>Would not a definitive test be to wire a suspect PV to an
> inexpensive mppt CC (oxymoron?) and then to an orphaned battery.  The
> battery would have to have a mondo (surplus) rheostat paralleled to it to
> maintain a steady voltage during the test.  With appropriate metering in
> place, you would then have Vmmp and Immp as the rheostat is tweaked to hold
> a steady batt voltage and the CC finds the knee.
>
>Help me here.  I know its a little spendy to cobble up but the
> value of nailing an offender might be worth it.  Am I missing something?
> Is it common for inverters to fall off in output gradually?
>
> Bill
> Feather River Solar Electric
>
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161 SE Fourth Ave
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White Salmon, WA 98672-1823
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation

[Bill Hoffer]

Jerry

Unfortunately snail trails are a clear indication of micro cracks that will
in time open up and degrade the output of the module substantially.  They
may not have a performance problem yet , but give it time to show up!  It
usually takes awhile for the snail trail to appear, the micro cracks allow
ions to pass through the cell attracted by the polarity and cause the
discoloration around the micro cracks.  I have heard of initial installs
with them , which is a very bad sign, and the same response from the
manufacturer that it does not effect performance ( yes they were flash
tested with the micro cracks present).  IMHO it is a manufacturing defect
and has nothing to do with performanceyet, and should be covered under
manufacturing defects!  Good luck with that though!  I am sure that we have
had this problem all along, but because we are seeing 1000 vdc
transformer-less systems it is occurring more quickly.

Bill Hoffer

On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 10:33 PM, jerrysgarage01 
wrote:

> Wrenches
> We used to use Sharp but now its Trina,  containers of 250 watt modules,
>  data logging has not shown any abnormal power loss. Now that I say this
> Trina as the story  goes debates there data so that is true it softens the
> blow a little. I have seen  some another brand that are cracking poly cells
> looks like snail tracks, manufacture says it does not effect performance
> Jerry
>
>
> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S™ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: b...@midnitesolar.com
> Date:07/16/2015 4:01 PM (GMT-10:00)
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trina Module Annual Degradation
>
>
>
> It's too bad that when a module goes to a REAL high degradation, like,
> 100% down to nothing
> before that 25 year "warranty" is up, that it is NOT considered
> degradation and is not covered
> under "warranty".
>
> P.S. This has nothing to do with Trina or any PV company in particular.
>
> boB
>
> On 7/16/2015 6:24 PM, jay wrote:
> > HI Peter,
> >
> > I’ll bite.
> >
> >  From the folks I know who deal with multi mega watt systems, are seeing
> less than  that level of degradation.
> >
> > That said, the standard module  25 yr warranty to 80% is just on .7%
> year if I have my math correct.
> >
> > jay
> >
> > peltz power
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 16, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Peter Parrish <
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I have recently been in discussion with a company that builds a large
> number
> >> of medium-sized PV ground mount system (30 kW to over 100 kW). They
> claim
> >> that they have been seeing something on the order of 0.7% annual
> degradation
> >> in the output of their systems due to intrinsic degradation in the PV
> >> modules. They also claim that this number is supported by the PV module
> >> manufacturer. Many years ago (2007?) I remember reading a report
> containing
> >> data gathered by NREL that showed the number was about 0.4%, and I
> thought
> >> the number was actually decreasing over time.
> >>
> >> The module in question is the Trina TSM-310 (PA14.8, I believe, if it
> makes
> >> any difference).
> >>
> >> Has anyone read anything recent about annual degradation in general or
> Trina
> >> modules in particular?
> >>
> >> - Peter
> >>
> >> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D.
> >> President, SolarGnosis
> >> 1107 Fair Oaks Ave. Suite 351
> >> South Pasadena, CA 91030
> >> NABCEP Certified PV Installer #031806-26
> >> (323) 839-6108
> >> peter...@pobox.com
> >>
> >>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter

[Bill Hoffer]

Dana

I highly recommend the Power Quality Clamp meter.  My most useful meter, I
will never buy just a plain old clamp meter again, for a few dollars more
having the ability to measure ac/dc power directly is huge!  I have had the
Seaward Power Clamp for several years now, when it was the only single
phase power meter available.  Nice to see others coming out now from
Exceltech and Amprobe , should get the price down some with competition.
Fluke needs to get a model in that function and price range too!  With
their new Fluke Connect Blue tooth that would make performance validation a
breeze!

Bill

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Dana  wrote:

> Fluke is making GREENLEES meters I have a couple and they are as accurate
> as the FLUKES. I cannot quote model #'s but good buy for less $ & same
> bomber rubber exterior as FLUKE.
>
>
> 
> Dana Orzel
> Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136
> E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com
> O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
>  Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
> Behalf Of Ray Walters
> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 5:20 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Clamp on Meter
>
> Hi All;
>
> My Fluke 36 clamp on DC meter just died again.  It will not zero. This
> happened before, and I had it repaired, but I think its time for a new one,
> as its 15 years old.
> What are folks using these days?  I'm looking at the Fluke 376; it does
> AC/DC current, but also is rated to 1000 v, which makes it useful for the
> new higher voltage arrays.
> I was also looking at some of the clamp on Power Quality meters, like the
> Amprobe ACD-41PQ, or the Extech 382075 Power quality meter.  The Fluke 345
> is beyond my budget right now, and doesn't go to 1000 v.
> I need the DC current ability now, but adding power factor, and THD
> readings would be a serious bonus.
> I may just get the Fluke 376, and save my pennies up for the power quality
> meter for Christmas
> As always your invaluable input and experiences are greatly appreciated.
>
> --
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
>
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White Salmon, WA 98672-1823
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling

[Bill Hoffer]

Kirpal

True there is no current control, but more like a rough Pulse width
modulated control through motorized breaker that does maintain the proper
voltage level for a multistage charging at Bulk Absorb and Float settings.

Bill

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 5:59 AM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:

> Hey Bill...my understanding of the Outback AC coupled solution is that it
> does not offer multi stage charging from the grid tied inverter as it does
> not have any way to regulate the amount of power coming in  from that
> inverter...based on the state of charge of the batteries and at pre set
> voltage set points it can operate the remote breaker but it does not have
> the ability to taper the amount of in coming power from the grid tied
> inverter..   This is why the frequency shift AC coupling such as found with
> SMA and others is a nice solution as the amount of incoming power from the
> grid tied inverters is regulated allowing for healthy multi stage
> charging.
> Another thing to consider if using the Outback Ac coupled solution is that
> your DC coupling options becomes limited in the same load center
> Cheers
> Kirpal
> On Jun 30, 2015 9:01 AM, "Bill Hoffer"  wrote:
>
>> Kirpal
>>
>> Actually the Radian system does adjust the battery voltage point that it
>> disconnects the grid inverter based on the stage of the charge timers using
>> the 3 stage inverter charger set points.  The FNDC will also over ride the
>> timers if all fully charged parameters are met.  It has the advantage of
>> being able to safely use a back up generator in the system and will
>> physically disconnect from grid and the AC coupled inverter before
>> connecting the generator.  So there are some advantages over a SMA AC
>> coupled system too!
>>
>> Even though there is no official application notes on AC coupling a
>> Radian and Solaredge, I have seen it done with good results.  The nice
>> thing about an AC coupled Radian is it should work with any grid tie
>> inverter system out there.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Kirpal Khalsa 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> TomI haven't AC coupled Solaredge and Outback, but I have AC Coupled
>>> Outback with various other inverter manufacturers and their Radian AC
>>> Coupled Load center will work with any AC sourceIt doesn't directly
>>> communicate with any other inverter but its remote operated circuit
>>> breakers allow it to disconnect AC Power from any other inverter when
>>> batteries reach a preset voltageIt is not as elegant as a sunny
>>> island/sunnyboy system because it doesn't provide multistage charging buy
>>> it is easy to implement and install.You should be able to find all the
>>> information on the Outback Radian site.  You would need the GSLC-AC-120/240
>>> load center and it comes pre wired with the remote operated circuit breaker
>>> which makes it a breeze to install
>>>
>>>
>>> Sunny Regards,
>>> Kirpal Khalsa
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>> Oregon Solarworks LLC
>>> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>>> 541-218-0201 m
>>> 541-299-0402 o
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Tom Lane  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like
>>>> to see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with
>>>> SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC
>>>> Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the
>>>> phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list
>>>> that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season
>>>> in Gator Land !
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPad
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>>> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] SolaEdge Outback AC Coupling

[Bill Hoffer]

Kirpal

Actually the Radian system does adjust the battery voltage point that it
disconnects the grid inverter based on the stage of the charge timers using
the 3 stage inverter charger set points.  The FNDC will also over ride the
timers if all fully charged parameters are met.  It has the advantage of
being able to safely use a back up generator in the system and will
physically disconnect from grid and the AC coupled inverter before
connecting the generator.  So there are some advantages over a SMA AC
coupled system too!

Even though there is no official application notes on AC coupling a Radian
and Solaredge, I have seen it done with good results.  The nice thing about
an AC coupled Radian is it should work with any grid tie inverter system
out there.

Bill

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 6:45 AM, Kirpal Khalsa  wrote:

> TomI haven't AC coupled Solaredge and Outback, but I have AC Coupled
> Outback with various other inverter manufacturers and their Radian AC
> Coupled Load center will work with any AC sourceIt doesn't directly
> communicate with any other inverter but its remote operated circuit
> breakers allow it to disconnect AC Power from any other inverter when
> batteries reach a preset voltageIt is not as elegant as a sunny
> island/sunnyboy system because it doesn't provide multistage charging buy
> it is easy to implement and install.You should be able to find all the
> information on the Outback Radian site.  You would need the GSLC-AC-120/240
> load center and it comes pre wired with the remote operated circuit breaker
> which makes it a breeze to install
>
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-218-0201 m
> 541-299-0402 o
>
> On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:40 AM, Tom Lane  wrote:
>
>> Has anyone AC Coupled an Outback System with SolarEdge ? I would like to
>> see a wiring diagram and know what components from Outback you used with
>> SolarEdge . I have been told variously that SolarEdge does not approve AC
>> Coupling and that they have approve it , depending on who I get on the
>> phone . SolarEdge and Outback have no official diagrams or components list
>> that I can find . I would like some help here as we are in Hurricane season
>> in Gator Land !
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
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White Salmon, WA 98672-1823
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module defect? Cell interconnections

[Bill Hoffer]

Benn

I personally would not accept these modules, the defect is what you can see
and makes me wonder of how good the remainder of the soldered connection
is.  It is a red flag and very likely will become a problem in the future
under load thermal cycling.  Shading of the cell is the least of the
worries.  I have seen cells in the Star Center ( granted 15 years + age and
early technology) that did have hot spots developing where there was
obvious misalignment of bus bars.  Movement of the module can lift the bus
bar enough to cause frictional heating.  At a very minimum these modules
then to be on a watch list to detect issues before they become a real
problem.  At the module plant I work for this would be an immediate down
grade to a B module if it flashed properly and a C grade module if it
flashed low.  We size our bus bars slightly larger then then the silk
screen and if we see any silk screening on the sides it becomes a B grade
module and is priced accordingly.

Bill

On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Benn Kilburn 
wrote:

>
> Thanks for your comments Brian.  I would also consider these to be "low
> grade", even though we did not order or pay for "low grade".  I did get in
> touch with the module manufacturer and found out that these did sneak past
> their QC checkpoint.  I was told that their general tolerance for the
> bus/ribbon alignment is within 1/2 the ribbon width.
>
> I was told that internal arcing is not a concern here because the
> individual cell is at the same potential, so arcing should not happen with
> the ribbon/bus being misaligned.
> Yes, the small amount of cell shading will reduce output, but it is a
> minute amount of shading, so the loss is negligible.(?)
>
> I would appreciate any feedback from any other module manufacturers on
> this, if we have any on this list?
>
> Benn
>
> *Benn Kilburn *
> CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc
> 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7
> P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com
> [image: email]  [image: facebook]
>  [image: twitter]
>  [image: linkedin]
> 
>  [image: google] 
>
>  [image: SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal]
>
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 12:31 PM, Benn Kilburn 
> wrote:
>
>> Wrenches,
>> Have any of you noticed misaligned cell interconnections like the ones in
>> the attached photo?
>> I'm hesitant to use these and I already returned another module back to
>> the distributer that had several cells with misaligned conductors as well,
>> but just came across these in the order we just picked up.
>> I'm waiting for a reply from he mfgr but in the meantime I'm wondering if
>> any of you have seen this and should we be concerned with quality or safety
>> (arcing?) in the short or long term?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Benn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Benn Kilburn
>> SkyFire Energy Inc.
>> 780-906-7807
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Design Class Recommendations

[Bill Hoffer]

Howie

I am biased to SEI. Full disclosure I do teach for them.  Great instructors
and a solid curriculum.  Options for online, in person and hands on.  Great
thing about SEI is most instructors are part time teachers working full
time in the industry, so students get a good industry perspective.
Reference material alone is worth taking the online...I use it in my work
on a regular basis.   Great Alumni network too!  SEI rocks!

Bill
On May 26, 2015 8:25 PM, "Howie Michaelson"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We are hiring a new person to begin to take on generating our residential
> installation packets for the field crews. We looked for someone with
> experience, but have had to go with someone with lots of PV field project
> management experience, reasonably good computer program skills, but not a
> great deal of understanding of Code and equipment choices. We are looking
> for some course work that will help shorten the learning curve and
> teaching burden.  I found several potential classes, but any
> recommendations for either online courses or intensive live classes would
> be very appreciated. Cost is less of a concern than finding something that
> is effective and efficient.
>
> Thanks,
> Howie
> --
> Howie Michaelson
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm)
>
> Catamount Solar, LLC
> Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
> VT Solar Electric & Hot Water Incentive Partner
> http://www.CatamountSolar.com
> 802-272-0004
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recommendation for torque tools

[Bill Hoffer]

Bill

I like the CDI product line  and use a dual
scale dial indicator model for larger fasteners and their driver for
smaller electrical connections.  Good quality and pricing.  They contract
produce for SnapOn ( owned by them now) and have had their own line now for
quite awhile.  I prefer the dial indicator over click style to keep from
over torquing the connection, especially stainless on aluminum rails!  They
also sell calibration tool that you can use in the shop to check when you
might need to send it in for re-calibration.  I believe that it is not as
critical with the dial indicators because it is using a bending beam to
measure rather than a spring clik mechanism.  Since I do 3rd party
commissioning I do check my calibration at the shop before after each job
to insure accuracy.  It is becoming common practice to check torques on
electrical connections by using a thermal camera while under loads to
identify connections that need re-torquing to keep from over torquing and
busting off connectors.  Loose connections show a significant higher
temperature than tight ones.

Bill

On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 6:57 AM, Bill Loesch 
wrote:

>
> Wrenches,
>
> Do you have a favorite brand/model of torque wrenches when assembling
> mounts to manufacturer's specs? How do you handle calibration?
>
> TIA,
>
> --
> Bill Loesch
> Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
> 314 631 1094
>
>
>
> -
> No virus found in this message.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Mod skylight (clear backsheet)

[Bill Hoffer]

Eric

Try Lumos Solarscape 
s

Bill

On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 8:33 AM,  wrote:

> Anyone have a recommendation for a PV module that doubles as a skylight,
> i.e., has a clear backsheet? I have a client who would like to explore the
> option of putting solar on his greenhouse. I mentioned that the sunlight
> transmission would be significantly reduced but he saw it in action
> somewhere else and he wants a solarized greenhouse. Thanks.
>
> SunHarvest Solar
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] module testing

[Bill Hoffer]

Marco

TUV can test to UL1703 standards not just IEC standards.  UL still trys to
make a big deal about the UL mark vs all other testing labs, but any NRTL (
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory) can certify to UL standards.  The
mark is what counts and it will state specific standards tested to, Such as
conforms to UL1703  or IEC 61730 for modules.  UL can also test to IEC
standards too.

Bill

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 8:27 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf 
wrote:

> Hola.
>
>
>
> Does anyone knowFor the U.S. market, is TUV certification to UL 1703
> considered adequate?
>
>
>
> I've always thought that modules sold in the U.S. had to have actual
> testing and certification by U.L. directly or another nationally recognized
> test lab.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> marco
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Microfractures in PV Modules

[Bill Hoffer]

Christopher

There are some level of micro fractures that are always present in cells
and not visible to the naked eye.  Some of these will produce visible
fractures over time from loading and flexing of the module from weather and
temperature changes.  The micro fractures can be an issue with performance,
but may not show up until later, they are not necessarily an issue with
safety.  If the encapsulation is intact and the there is not a specific
internal fault caused by the separation the only issue would be loss of
conducting surface between the broken piece and the internal string wiring
resulting in a loss of performance.  Bottom line as long as there is not a
fault, your AHJ does not have much to say about performance, the NEC says
nothing about performance, only if the installation is safe.  All modules
are flash tested and sorted for performance and checked for faults (
insulation resistance tested at a voltage significantly higher than the
operational rating, 2x max voltage + 1000V).  This is required before a
module manufacturer can place a UL sticker on it.  IMHO as long as the
damage and is not causing leakage current during an insulation resistance
test at the factory the AHJ really cannot say anything about it legally, he
is not an inspector for UL and really only needs to be able to read the UL
sticker and certify it is being used according to the listing.

That being said some module manufacturers do add an additional
Electroluminescence test that does detect micro cracks by placing a small
reverse current through the module that causes the active material to act
as a Light Emitting Diode in the near infrared spectrum that it is possible
to detect with a special camera calibrated for that light spectrum.
Usually done in a lab, although there are expensive field units available
now.  These test will show micro-cracks, bad print screening and bad spots
on the cells from the doping process.  I have done tests were we purposely
damage cells in a module and we have been able to detect micro cracks that
did not necessarily result in a reduced flash test at the factory.  Over
time I assume that will not be the case and reduced output may be the.  So
IMHO your AHJ does not have the equipment nor does he have the expertise to
perform these tests, nor does the NEC or UL1703 require it!

Good Luck with the inspector, but I think he is way out of his league on
this one, until it becomes a safety issue, even a visible crack in a cell
is not an issue of his concern.

Bill

On Sat, Oct 4, 2014 at 8:20 AM, Christopher Warfel <
cwar...@entech-engineering.com> wrote:

> Recently a inspector raised the issue of microfractures in pv modules, and
> that the existence of such fractures would require replacement of the
> modules and a failing of the system inspection. I found information from
> NREL confirming the existence of microfractures in poly crystalline.
> However, I have not seen any information on how to detect them (ie, what
> they look like).  Does anyone have a reference that shows this, and is this
> a valid concern for the industry?  Thank you, Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Christopher Warfel, President
> ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
> PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
> 401-466-8978
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cooler Modules

[Bill Hoffer]

Bill

Flir E40,  works well and has some good features that make it easy to write 
reports with the software.  E60 is similar with additional features, but a 
little more expensive.  IMHO any of the E - series is a pretty good bet.  
Bill

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cooler Modules

[Bill Hoffer]

Mark

Loaded modules will have hotter cells. I know this from searching for bad
cells with a thermal camera.  At open circuit I could not see a difference,
but short circuit or loaded I could see 20 - 30 C increase in mismatched
cells .

Bill

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Mark Frye  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> Two identical PV modules are mount in an identical fashion and exposed to
> identical irradiance.
>
> One module is open circuit. The other is connected to a load and producing
> power.
>
> Is there a difference in the temperature of the two modules? If so, which
> one is cooler?
>
> Mark Frye
> Berkeley Solar Electric Systems
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV panel backing

[Bill Hoffer]

Ron

A silicon based spray sealer should work, just make sure whatever you use
is air cured and not accelerated cured by using acetone or some other
solvent that may get trapped and eventually cause corrosion of the cells or
cell interconnects.  Even if it buys you a couple of years that is better
than throwing it away, just make sure it is safe and does not cause another
fire!

Bill


On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 4:32 AM, Ron Young 
wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
> I have an installation of 165w PV on a pole mount that was exposed to a
> fire from the rear when the customers shop burned. 6 of the 10 panels
> survived with only replacement of the MC4 plugs required but one of the
> panels that is still functioning had the rear coating melted off. The cells
> and electrical grid still function. Can anyone recommend a replacement
> coating that may salvage this panel for a few more years. I know if left
> exposed it will soon deteriorate but am wondering if some kind of commonly
> available non conductive rubberized or latex type of coating might do the
> job?
>
> Ron Young
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Diode Failure

[Bill Hoffer]

Corey
The most common cause of diode failure are surges.   They usually fail shorted 
initially and eventually open circuit. Hopefully they are replaceable and not 
potted!

Bill

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AFCI disturbances.

[Bill Hoffer]

William

I agree with Bob-O, wire nuts are not the best choice for DC connections,
for all the reasons he mentioned,  but SMA claiming that wire nuts are
causing arc faults seems like a long shot at covering up an arc fault
detection nuisance tripping problem.  IMHO AFCI protection circuits are far
from perfected at this time and Inverters and optimizers have enough
inherent switching noise to cause nuisance tripping ( and there is ample
evidence supporting numerous inverter manufacturers having issues).  I
believe we are going to have similar growing pains as we did in the
beginning of requiring ARC Fault panel mounted breakers for bedrooms.  I
have since replaced all my Square D Arc Fault breakers due to failure, ie
nuisance tripping.  I understand the intent of adding arc fault to the 2014
code, but I am concerned that as installers we will again become the guinea
pigs in this crazy experiment!  Don't gt me started on the fact that they
are required to only detect series faults and that opening the circuit on a
 parallel fault will likely make the arc increase rather than extinguish!

Bill


On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 8:40 AM, William Miller 
wrote:

> Richard:
>
> Possibly. I think I prefer din mount connector blocks. However, if a wire
> nut can arc internally a connector block might also. I am still wondering
> about this concept.
>
> William
>
> Miller Solar
>
> > On Jun 25, 2014, at 6:09 AM, richard.l.rat...@valley.net (Richard L
> Ratico) wrote:
> >
> > William,
> > Would UL listed crimp sleeves be an acceptable substitute where you would
> > otherwise use wirenuts?
> >
> > Dick Ratico
> > Solarwind Electric
> >
> >
> > --- You wrote:
> > Bob-O:
> >
> >
> >
> > When you say verboten, what does that mean?  Not kosher?  Frowned upon?
> > Disallowed by law???
> >
> >
> >
> > I am quite curious about this subject.  Here is what I have learned so
> far:
> >
> >
> >
> > This is a unique case where we are replacing 3 dead SMA U series
> inverters
> > with 2 US series inverters.  The U series seem to all be dying at about
> 12
> > to 14 years of age.  We have about a dozen of these to swap on our
> calendar
> > and expect more.  It may be that to do this right requires that we pull
> new
> > wire from the arrays.  This makes the job a lot more expensive.
> >
> >
> >
> > We have never used a wire nut on a PV lead until this project.  It's not
> > that we disapprove of wire nuts in general, it is because we know that
> if we
> > were to use them regularly we would eventually have failures and call
> backs.
> > We allow only one splice in a PV lead: between the cable provided by the
> > manufacturer of the module and a bulkhead mounted MC4 connector direct to
> > THWN in conduit
> > (
> http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/PV_Cable_wiring/_PV_
> > Cable_Wiring.html).
> >
> >
> >
> > We checked the manufacturer's listing and the wire nuts are rated for 600
> > volts.  We do use wire nuts on AC circuits, such as switch and receptacle
> > circuits in a power room.
> >
> >
> >
> > A tech at SMA told me that wire nuts "arc internally to the spring"
> causing
> > the AFCI faults.  I am not aware of any process of "internal arcing."  To
> > me, arcing means, as per the dictionary definition: "a luminous bridge
> > formed in a gap between two electrodes."  The same tech told me to solder
> > the leads and apply shrink tubing.  I don't believe this is an approved
> > method.  By the way, we have spliced leads on both US series inverters
> and
> > only one is exhibiting AFCI disturbances.
> >
> >
> >
> > I do favor mounted terminal blocks, either screw or tubular type. I need
> to
> > check if the Amp model we stock are 600 volt rated.
> >
> >
> >
> > I was told by another representative from SMA that on a ground-mount
> system
> > it is legal to disable the AFCI protection.
> >
> >
> >
> > I will be troubleshooting this job tomorrow and I will let you all know
> what
> > I learn.
> >
> >
> >
> > William Miller
> > --- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module Degradation - voltage or current?

[Bill Hoffer]

Dana

Bill Brooks, passed on past data, ( correct me Bill if I am out of date
here) recommends 1% Power loss per year with approximately 0.5% current and
0.5%voltage.  That is also what Solar Energy International Best Practices
curriculum recommends.  Based on some newer data from larger projects
requiring testing to actually determine those values for the Bankability
requirements ( PVsyst PAN files),  I believe we are seeing lower numbers
than that now.  In general, quality of modules are higher than the older
modules.  We of course are usually not privy to those results and may not
even be getting the same level of binning for small residential projects as
the MW projects do.   0.5% V loss per year seems like a like a good
conservative number to me, especially if you add a little buffer (1-2%) in
there.

Bill


On Tue, Jun 3, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Dana Brandt  wrote:

> Hi Wrenches,
>
> Does anyone know what percentage of module degradation over time is
> voltage and what is current? I'm wanting to make sure we give ourselves
> plenty of breathing room on the minimum Vmp of the inverters over the long
> term so need to try to anticipate how much voltage we'll lose on the array
> over 30 years.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dana
>
> Dana Brandt
> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
> www.ecotechenergy.com
> d...@ecotechenergy.com
> 360.318.7646
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Article 690, or The Haves Vs. Have Nots

[Bill Hoffer]

Dave

I agree, in the case of microinverters, you already have a main PV System
disconnect at the Load Panel to shut down the system that is readily
accesible.  I would consider the disconnect on the roof as a supplemental
disconnect for the purposes of maintenance by authorized personal that only
needs to be accessible.

Bill


On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Dave Click  wrote:

>  I think 240.24(A)(4) allows the installation of the inverter OCPDs in the
> SolaDeck hidden under a module.
>
>  *240.24 Location in or on Premises.*
>  *(A) Accessibility.* Overcurrent devices shall be readily accessible and
> shall be installed so that the center of the grip of the operating handle
> of the switch or circuit breaker, when in its highest position, is not more
> than 2.0 m (6 ft 7 in.) above the floor or working platform, unless one of
> the following applies:
> ...
> (4) For overcurrent devices adjacent to utilization equipment that they
> supply, access shall be permitted to be by portable means.
>
>
> And if panelboards / fused safety switches are allowed to have
> screwed-down covers over the OCPDs, I'd think that installing a removable
> module over these OCPDs would meet NEC. I guess an AHJ could argue that
> this requires TWO covers be removed, unlike a panelboard or a switch.
>
> DKC
>
>
> On 2014/4/29, 11:15, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
>  690.9(D) is not applicable to the original discussion because we were
> talking about an Inverter output circuit, not a PV Source or Output circuit.
>
>  690.34 may apply if you call a SolaDeck with breakers a junction box,
> but I can see that being a stretch in the mind of many.
>
>  My and Ray's question about the screws on the SolaDeck cover itself
> requiring a tool to render it accessible is still an issue if the breakers
> themselves need to be "readily accessible," but that would also apply to a
> Midnite MNPV, which also has a cover with a screw.
>
>
>   Jason Szumlanski
>
>>
>> On 4/28/2014 5:57 PM, Bill Brooks wrote:
>>
>>  Read 690.9(D) and 690.34. Not sure where this "hysteria--run for the
>> border" sentiment is coming from.
>>
>>
>>
>> *690.9(D) Photovoltaic Source and Output Circuits. *Listed PV
>>
>> overcurrent devices shall be required to provide overcurrent
>>
>> protection in PV source and output circuits. The overcurrent
>>
>> devices shall be accessible but shall not be required to
>>
>> be readily accessible.
>>
>>
>>
>> *690.34 Access to Boxes. *Junction, pull, and outlet boxes
>>
>> located behind modules or panels shall be so installed that
>>
>> the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible
>>
>> directly or by displacement of a module(s) or panel(s) secured
>>
>> by removable fasteners and connected by a flexible
>>
>> wiring system.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is not a change. Please help me understand the concern.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bill Brooks.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [
>> mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *Ray Walters
>> *Sent:* Monday, April 28, 2014 2:23 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] (no subject)
>>
>>
>>
>> Interesting so does "require a tool" include taking a screw off the cover
>> plate of the combiner box, too?
>> What a game changer.  I'm going to Mexico for my next project; I'll
>> actually enjoy even more being the sole AHJ on the project.
>>
>>  R.Ray Walters
>>
>> CTO, Solarray, Inc
>>
>> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
>>
>> Licensed Master Electrician
>>
>> Solar Design Engineer
>>
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 4/28/2014 2:52 PM, Michael Morningstar wrote:
>>
>> Readily accessible is now defined in the 2014 NEC. Installing OCPD's
>> underneath a module is a major faux paux, and I can't imagine any AHJ
>> thinking otherwise. Having to remove a module in order to reset a breaker,
>> what a drag.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal or inspection
>> without requiring those concerned to use a tool, to climb over, remove
>> obstacle or other."
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Apr 28, 2014, at 10:29 AM, William Miller 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>  You call it a solar panel, I call it a glass j-box cover plate.
>>
>> William
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>>
>>  On Apr 28, 2014, at 9:21 AM, Jason Szumlanski 
>> wrote:
>>
>> If that is the interpretation,
>> I don't see how the breakers are "readily accessible" in a SolaDeck
>> mounted anywhere, regardless of whether it is under a module. It
>> requires removal of four screws (using a tool) to access the breakers
>> inside the enclosure. It's all up to the AHJ. It has not been an issue
>> locally here. I can see how other jurisdictions may not
>> concur.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World shattered module

[Bill Hoffer]

Dave

Sometimes tempered glass will have a defect that will cause spontaneous
breakage from a relatively small stress in exactly the right spot.   We
have seen that happen during module manufacturing, so usally it never makes
it out the door. What does the shatter pattern look like.  If it is from
being hit by something the spot that was hit is pretty recognizable as the
cracks radiate out from there.  Or if it is heat related ( hotspotting ,
diodes overheating or a bad cell solder ) the cracks will radiate out from
that spot and there should be some discoloration from the over heating
event.  Pressure from the frame could have also occurred if it pushed
directly against the defect, but I would find that less likely since most
SolarWorld modules are gasket-ed and have ample space between glass and
frame for expansion and contraction.

Bill


On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Dave Palumbo
wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
>
>
> I have a customer with one SW 230 poly V2.0 frame (top mount) module that
> has shattered glass. It is on a DPW TPM10 pole mount. She noticed it the
> other day and does not think that it was hit by anything. I agree that is
> unlikely based on the site conditions.
>
>
>
> Other than by a falling tree, thrown rock, or twisted frame - is there
> another way that glass shatters on a 65 degree tilted pole mount like this?
>  We installed the system 2 years ago. The module was on the lower corner of
> the array.
>
> · Is it likely that this modules frame was being pressured by the
> module(s) above it? TPM has two rows of 5 modules in landscape, so this
> bottom module has 4 modules mounted above it. Again it is a top mounted DPW
> pole array.
>
> · Or, is there another way that glass shatters on this type of
> module?
>
> I have not visited the site yet, just received the phone call today.
>
>
>
> David Palumbo
>
> Independent Power LLC
>
> 462 Solar Way Drive
>
> Hyde Park, VT 05655
>
> (802) 888-7194
>
>
>
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161 SE Fourth Ave
P.O. Box 1823
White Salmon, WA 98672-1823
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Nano cleaning and sealing products.

[Bill Hoffer]

James

It is probably a Silane solution ( Silicon based), it is commonly used for
skyscraper windows to insure that the Very High Bonding  (VHB) tape used to
adhere them is not undermined by water intrusion  I have also seen it used
in solar modules on the edge of the glass prior to lamination to keep water
out of the lamination and improve the lamination adhesion.   Glass is
Hydro-tropic  ( attracts water ) and water will try to flow into recesses
or between adhesive surfaces on the glass.  Add a heat freeze process and
the adhesion can be undermined over time.  By applying a very small amount
of Silane in a water solution the water will more readily bead up and flow
off the glass, making it more Hydro-phobic ( repelling water).  Beware too
much will cause the glass to have an oily film that will actually keep
adhesion from occurring or cause more dirt and dust build up.   It will
also promote easier cleaning.  Essentially it fills the porous surface of
the glass that attracts water and allows it to run off

I believe that this is the same ingredient used in the secret sauce of
RainX to make water bead up and run off your windshield.  As with RainX it
lasts a pretty long time, but do put too much on!

Not sure what it does to the environment though

Bill


On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 2:32 PM, jay peltz  wrote:

> HI James
>
> I can't speak to this product, but they use such things in the middle east
> to keep the dust off the windows on high rise buildings.
>
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
> On Apr 21, 2014, at 1:48 PM, James Rudolph wrote:
>
> Aloha Wrenches,
> Now that one in ten houses have a solar system here in Oahu there are a
> lot of companies selling products and services like this one below.
>
>
> http://www.cenano.net/solar-photovoltaic/
>
> Here  are a few of their claims:
>
> *Cenano Pacific* exclusive nanotechnology line proudly introduces the #1
> solar panel sealant and protectant in the world!  Proven to seal and
> protect your solar panels plus increase their efficiency.  It's 100% safe
> and will not affect your panels warranty.  The sealant repels fat, dirt,
> oil and water on all solid, non-absorbent surfaces such as glass, metal,
> plastic, chrome, ceramics, and stainless steel.
>
>
> Is there anybody out that can share some stories or insights on products
> like this?
>
> Do they even work? When exposed to the sun for years will they turn from
> clear to opaque..etc.
>
> Will this product or others like this void manufactures warranty's?
>
> Mahalozz in advance,
>
>
>
>
> *James B. Rudolph*
>
> *Haleakala Solar*
>
> *Director of Construction*
>
> *ES Electrician # 10816*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer # 091209-155*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Autocad

[Bill Hoffer]

William

I second using Sketchup and Layout for $500 .  I have seen the add on Roof
Pro Plug in and Skelion ( $199) demo  that lays out the array  and links to
PVwatts for power analysis.  Plus Combined with google earth , does great
shading analysis I.  I think you can do a quick design in an hour and
Autocad would be days!  Stay away from Autocad unless you really need it
for large commercial jobs and like Jason said it is required to interact
with other trades! Plus Solar Energy Engineering is starting a web based
training for using it for solar projects.  It really is pretty cool and a
lot more flexible than overpriced and overly complicated Autocad.  Autocad
light woudl be my first choice, no way you need the full blown version.

Bill


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

> Unless there is a compelling reason to use AutoCAD, like interoperability
> with other trades and professions, consider Sketchup Pro and Layout from
> Trimble. $500.
>
> I learned it over a weekend, and with the Instant Roof Pro plugin ($39) I
> was making convincing and accurate renderings in almost no time. Note:
> Instant Roof, a necessary plugin for roof modeling, has not been updated
> for Sketchup 2014, so download 2013 for now. The author is working on it.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Fafco Solar
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:09 PM, William Miller 
> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> The 3D CAD software I have been using is obsolete.  I have decided to
>> upgrade to Autocad.  I am temporarily using an educational copy while I
>> learn, but  I need to purchase a copy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Before I go out and plunk down $4k, I need to do some research:
>>
>>
>>
>> Do I have to expect to pay that much?
>>
>>
>>
>> Where is a good place to purchase?
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there copies of one generation old programs available?
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a self teacher but I use printed texts.  What is your favorite
>> Autocad reference?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks everyone!
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
>>
>> Lic 773985
>>
>> millersolar.com (hyperlink)
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>>
>>
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White Salmon, WA 98672-1823
suneng...@gmail.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?

[Bill Hoffer]

Ray

Gave up on stainless fasteners and anti-sieze a long time ago after
discovering Dura-Con Fasteners .
 Better corrsion resistance against aluminum than stainless and no galling!
 We have used them for training where systems are assembled and
disassembled several times.  Even with anti-sieze still would have to hack
a few fasteners off every time.  With Dura-Con no more problem.  I also
believe  that they are also cheaper than quality Stainless  ( not all
stainless fasteners are created equal!) .  Try em you'll be asking every
racking company to switch over from stainless!

Bill, now gall-free Bill and loving it!


On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex.  I get it at the auto parts
> store.  I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator.
> Definitely recommended on all SS hardware.  I took apart another
> installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to
> be replaced.
> I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS
> hardware.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer
> 303 505-8760
>
>
> On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote:
>
>> there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling
>> compound, what do other people use?
>>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 72-cell modules

[Bill Hoffer]

Tump

Try 
Silevo,
they are currently making a 125mm 72 cell module in China.  This is thier
36MW proof of concept plant ( lower cost HIT technology like Sanyo ,
cystalline cell with amorphous coating giving higher efficiency and better
lower temperature coefficient for hot climates.  Apparently the pilot plant
in CA is making the 60 cell version.  They are breaking ground on a large
plant in New York to make 156mm cells and 60 and 72 cell full size modules.
 Looks pretty promising as a technology and these guys have done their
homework.  Interesting they are using semi-conductor etching and copper
depositing for the fingers rather than silver paste, which has decreased
costs and processing steps along with improving efficiency, allowing them
to offer the technology at a more competitive ( although still premium)
price than  Sanyo Hits were available for.  Should be close to the foot
print you need and have a better power density than you had.

Bill


On Mon, Feb 3, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

> Panasonics are longer available through Sunwize. That's what my rep just
> told me. They had trouble selling them due to the higher cost.
>
>
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Tump
> *Sent:* Monday, February 03, 2014 11:43 AM
> *To:* al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 72-cell modules
>
>
>
> contact me of list for contact at sunwize if you need to but thats where I
> got my replacements last month,
>
> On Feb 3, 2014, at 10:51 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>
>
>
> Does anyone have a source for Panasonic modules, in other than pallet
> quantity?
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder, *Positive Energy, Inc.*
>
> A Certified B CorporationTM
> 3209 Richards Lane
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> *505 424-1112 <505%20424-1112> office 780-2738 cell*
> *www.positiveenergysolar.com* 
>
> On 2/3/2014 4:28 AM, Tump wrote:
>
> The Sanyo/panasonic are a bit smaller, just need to reduce rail width &
> drill holes but thats what I am doing.
>
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>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] MC 3 cables

[Bill Hoffer]

Chris

I have had great luck with   PV
Cables.
 Quick service and reasonable prices.  They do have MC-3 connectors and
custom made cables.

Bill


On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Chris @ The Oasis
wrote:

>  Dear people:
>
> I have a customer with some older Sharp modules, and he's in need of four
> 35' PV cables with MC3 connectors.  Does anyone have a line on them?
> Please feel free to contact me offlist.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309
> 406-777-0830 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
> (e-mail - i...@oasismontana.com)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PID

[Bill Hoffer]

Drake

PID is caused by many factors, the capacitive nature of a solar panel and
materials ( cheaper, thinner encapsulants and backsheets and cell surface
treatments to get more efficiency to name a few).  The new marketing battle
cry for module manufacturers material vendors is PID resistant materials,
but we all have to take marketing claims with a grain of salt until we get
independent data to show that it is true!

A simplified explanation of PID is the build up of charged ions in a module
that cause a significant reduction in voltage output, dominated by a
complex interaction between materials within the module.  With a negative
grounded system there is a path to bleed off this charge .  The nature of
SunPowers module when negative grounding was used initially was the charge
build up was not bleed off the negative side, but needed to bleed off the
positive side.   This resulted in significantly reduced output, which is
irreversible after a period of time.  These were the first cases of PID in
the US.  That is why they solved it by specifying positive grounding to
bleed off this charge properly.  A transformerless inverter does not ( and
can not with fatal results) have a bond between negative and ground, so it
cannot bleed off this excess charge.  There may have already been PID, but
we never noticed with transformer based inverters and 600 VDC systems.  We
are seeing it predominately in Europe now where 1000VDC transformerless
inverters are more common, combined with cheaper modules ( ie materials) .

I am surprised that SMA knows nothing about this since I understand they
have a field fix  to add a switch, controlled by the inverter that allows a
bond connection between PV negative and ground when the inverter shuts down
over night to bleed off this excess charge and the switch is opened at
sunrise by the inverter before it makes it 's checks ( ground - negative
isolation and megging of the array for faults before startup).  Maybe this
is only available so far in Europe?

see http://files.sma.de/dl/7418/PID-TI-UEN113410.pdf
and http://files.sma.de/dl/7418/PID-PVOBox-TI-en-10.pdf

It can be a serious problem once it has reached an irreversible point!
 Some modules seem to be more susceptible to this issue. but it is not easy
to find which ones to avoid!

Bill


On Fri, Dec 27, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Drake  wrote:

>  Hello Wrenches,
>
> Attached is an article from Home Power that came in my email. It says
> module degradation is increased by PID (Potential Induced Degradation) by
> the use of transformerless inverters.  It says power degradation can occur
> over days or weeks and cause a 10% to 60% loss of efficiency.
>
> I called Power One and SMA and their tech support people have not had any
> reports of problems. Is this something we need to be concerned about?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Drake
>
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP Certified
> Solar PV 740-448-7328 <740-448-7328> *http://athens-electric.com/
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Return on investment information

[Bill Hoffer]

Chris

SAM software from NREL is also free and relatively easy to learn.  Give it
a try!  I have found it pretty good at predicting financial viability of a
project.

Bill


On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 6:52 AM, Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> I have a spreadsheet that I made a while back that will give a 20 year
> cash flow and internal rate of return.  It's set up to work with the market
> in Colorado with Xcel REC payments, and Federal tax credit, but you are
> welcome to use it and modify it if you like.  Send me an email and I'll get
> it to you.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 10:44 AM, Chris Daum wrote:
>
>>   Dear wrenches:
>>
>> We are bidding a job for a thrifty fellow; it's a small commercial system
>> (7.2KW array), and he's interested on the figures relating to his return on
>> investment.  Does anyone have any link or software where we can crunch the
>> numbers and get him an idea of his real ROI?  Besides the 30% federal
>> incentive, there is also a one-time state tax incentive as well as a grant
>> from the local utility
>>
>> Thanks as always for your brain power!
>>
>> Chris Daum, Oasis Montana Inc.
>>
>> 406-777-4309, www.oasismontana.com
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV Wiring methods

[Bill Hoffer]

Jason

I just started using Nine Fasteners, Inc  www.ninefasteners.com  . 410
stainless wire management clips.  Got turned on to them at SPI this year.
They are awesome, same basic clip concept except they add a nice rounding
along the edges that keeps it from cutting into the wire.  A step above the
rest and in quantities of 500 buy direct for $.28 - .29 each depending on
the style.  They are open to custom design ideas, made in the good old USA,
and customer service was outstanding too!

Bill Hoffer
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

> I know we've had this discussion before, but I wanted to again recommend
> the WireClips from PV Racking. We are using them on Enphase trunk lines,
> and find them to be great for this purpose. At $0.25 each, they are cost
> effective.
>
> That said, wire management is often a matter of strong opinion, and we are
> far from standardization and an accepted set of best practices.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Fafco Solar
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Kirpal Khalsa wrote:
>
>> Augustthank youyou are right they are actually a Heyco
>> productmy bad!!!  Ray, we recently got them thru
>> http://www.heilind.com/products/heyco/Heyco_solar.asp
>>
>> Ray...Contact me off list and i will share my sales persons contact
>> info..
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sunny Regards,
>> Kirpal Khalsa
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> www.oregonsolarworks.com
>> 541-218-0201 m
>> 541-592-3958 o
>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Square D Disconnects mounted on the slope of the roof.

[Bill Hoffer]

09:33 AM 11/8/2013, you wrote:
>
> Hi Kirpal,
>
> All Square D safety switches are UL tested in the Vertical position ONLY,
> so if someone is trying to install a switch in any other position other
> than vertical, that will be between them and the inspector.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Eric
>
> 
>
> Eric Bentsen  |  Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED STATES
>  |   Technical Support Representative
> Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |   Email:
> eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |  Site:
> www.schneider-electric.com/solar   |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd.,
> Livermore, CA 94551
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding Charge Controller(s)

[Bill Hoffer]

>> change and is
> >> wired in 6 strings of 3.  (confusing to the MX60?)
> >> >
> >> > He is now adding 4 Kyocera 240W modules.  He also purchased another
> >> MX60 for
> >> this array.
> >> >
> >> > From my perspective, removing the 3 185W modules and getting them on
> >> their
> >> own controller would be a better use of the modules.  The system
> >> currently does
> >> not have any disconnects on the PV side.  There are fuses in the
> >> combiner boxes on
> >> the array, but no disconnects inside at the charge controller.  So
> >> adding 3 charge
> >> controllers, and now needing to add GFDI, means a box of some kind needs
> >> to be
> >> added to house these breakers.
> >> >
> >> > Outbacks GFPs and panel mount breakers will work, but what is the best
> >> mounting solution for these?  One DC Flexware enclosure? It will of
> >> course allow
> >> for all the DC OCPD  and allow for the landing of the output of the
> >> charge
> >> controllers.  Or is there another enclosure/OCPD solution I should look
> >> at?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Thanks as always!
> >> >
> >> > Jesse
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Who has the best overall solar racking solution?

[Bill Hoffer]

Dyno Rack tool less best flat roof ballasted!

Bill
On Sep 10, 2013 2:12 PM, "Jay Peltz"  wrote:

> Sub question/
>
> Best ballasted flat roof rack?
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 10, 2013, at 1:04 PM, James Rudolph 
> wrote:
>
> Greetings Fellow Wrenchies,
> With all the racking options out there today, are there any stand outs in
> terms of quality and installation time.
> We are in the process of evaluating our racking system and with all the
> options its a little mind boggeling.
>
> Mahalo in advance!
>
>
>
> *
> James B Rudolph*
> *Heleakala Solar*
> **
> *Director of Construction*
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installer
> *
> *Licensed ES Electrician
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Thermal imaging

[Bill Hoffer]

rmous fusion
>> reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we
>> could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
>>
>> ~William McDonough
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Thermal imaging

[Bill Hoffer]

n we
>> could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
>>
>> ~William McDonough
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Thermal imaging

[Bill Hoffer]

Andrew
I highly recommend any of the fluke E series.  Better resolution and you
can get accurate temperature measurements at a safe distance from live
circuits.  IMHO , any lower model, you will wish you could do more!  I also
recommend Solar Energy International's Advanced tools lab, a week of hands
on working with field thermal cameras ,curve tracers, ground continuity and
insulation resistance testers before you buy!  Wish I had done that before
I invested in my advanced diagnostic toysoops I means tools!
Bill

Bill
On Jun 11, 2013 6:47 PM, "Andrew Truitt"  wrote:

> Wrenches - I am considering the purchase of a thermal imaging camera for
> PV system commissioning applications.  Prices seem to range from $1,000 to
> $10,000+.  Primary manufacturers seem to be Fluke and Flir, with Extech,
> Ideal and Milwaukee offering a few products as well.  It seems to me that
> the key factors to consider are temperature range, thermal sensitivity,
> screen resolution, screen size, battery life, type of image capture and
> price.  Does anyone have experience with using thermal imaging to identify
> temperature irregularities in modules and/or electrical equipment?  What
> temperature range, thermal sensitivity, and screen resolution is needed for
> both/either of these tasks?  What have been the key factors/specifications
> in terms of ergonomics and functionality?  Any preferences in terms of
> manufacturer?
>
>
>
> For a brighter energy future,
>
>
> Andrew Truitt
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™ (ID# 032407-66)
>
> Principal
> Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC
>
> (202) 486-7507
>
> LinkedIn Profile 
>
> Company Website 
>  <%28202%29%20486-7507>
>
>
> [image: 24 copy.jpg]
>
> "Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion
> to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
> safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
> ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"
>
> ~William McDonough
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] used panel mount questions

[Bill Hoffer]

Don
Actually Very High Bond (VHB) foam tapes are incredibly strong and if
formulated for glass, will work quite well.  They have been using it for
decades to mount heavy glass and aluminum panels on curtain walls on sky
scrapers.  I would trust it totally as long as it was not bought  at
HomeDepot.  I have tested it with heavy loads and the aluminum frame failed
before the tape and glass module!

Bill

Bill
On May 30, 2013 7:58 PM,  wrote:

> I would not trust adhesive on the backs of panels for decades. This would
> be especially a concern with tiltups or ground mounts where there is more
> wind loading.
> When mounting some frameless BP modules I made some 4-inch long edge
> moldings of slotted hard foam called SeaFoam that is sold (but not
> manufactured) by Tap Plastics.
> Then they were compatible with standard bolt-down edge-  and mid-clamps.
> Don Barch
> Energy Solar
>
> On 5/30/2013 4:14 PM, Todd Cory wrote:
> wrenches,
>
> i have a customer who purchased 20 used astropower ap75 modules. they are
> frameless and appear to have been previously mounted using four, 2" wide X
> 10" long strips of blue rigid foam, glued to the back of each module with
> some kind of adhesive.
>
> two questions:
>
> this seems to be a reasonable mounting system id like to repeat. would
> anyone familiar with this kind of mounting technique be willing to
> comment/speculate on an adhesive that would not degrade the tedlar
> backsheet? whatever was previously used worked great.
>
> what kind of flat/smooth mounting surface would folks suggest the other
> side of the blue foam be attached to? the only thing i can think of is
> plywood, but that would rot over time.
>
> thanks,
>
> todd
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Adhesives. (Was "used panel mount questions")

[Bill Hoffer]

Also realize that most chaulks use acetone to cure faster, not good for
back sheets.  PV adhesives are air cured and take a lot longer to become
full strength, at least 24 hrs under ideal conditions!  PV804 is bomb
proof,  I have done adhesion tests on junction boxes And I literally had to
destroy the module to get it offback sheet sticking to the J B still!
Not cheap...$8-$10 a tube!

Bill
On May 30, 2013 5:27 PM, "Exeltech"  wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> There are PV-specific adhesives certified for use on backsheets.
>
> Examples are:
>
> Dow-Corning 737
> Dow-Corning 804
> Tonsan 1527
>
> and others.
>
> These are silicone-based, but NOT at all like what you'd buy from big-box
> or similar outlets.
>
> Consumer-type silicone adhesives such as Ray mentioned will *not* have
> the long term adhesion to the backsheets.  They work for a while, but not
> 20 years.
>
> Any good distributor of adhesives will stock or can get what you need.
>
> Here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area we have a company called "Krayden".
> They have warehouse locations around the country, and stock the Dow
> adhesives I mentioned above.  I'm sure there are also other sources.
>
> For small jobs, you can buy these PV adhesives in "caulk" sized tubes
> that work (where else?) in a caulking gun.
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] modules

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay

Suniva cells made in Georgia, modules made in China.  Have been qualified
ARRA compliant...which means nothing of course since anyone signing onto
any trade agreement with the US is exempt from it, including Tiawan ( that
is why most cells are made there "officially")

Bill


On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:49 PM, jay peltz  wrote:

> A question about US made modules.
>
> Who actually makes the cells here in the us?
>
> Only 2 that i know of, I"m sure there are more.
> Solar world.
> First solar
>
> who else?
>
> thanks,
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV-direct electric water heating

[Bill Hoffer]

Luke

I know that this is different than your off grid situation, but I have a
grid connected home with 2.4KW array AC coupled with an 1.8kw Exeltech
system to an Outback that has been powering my all electric house to
include an electric instant hot water heater ( 2 x 55amp 240 circuits!), I
even have baseboard heat.  I am selling excess to the grid and banking it
for half the year during the summer and I use grid power to make up the
difference in the winter.  I have the cheapest power rate in the US
($00.0178/Kw), so that is why I am connected to the grid and also it is a
very small efficient passive solar straw-bale house here in central
Washington.  I plumbed in solar hot water, but never got around to hooking
it up..seems like it is not worth the hassle at this point the PV meets
about 1/3 my power needs during the year and the Grid is a pretty cheap
battery for me in the winter!  I mention it just to illustrate that the
cost of PV electric is getting to the point where it could in some
instances make solar hot water not worth dealing with!  I will proabably
spend the money to increase the PV in the future.  The made in Washington
incentive payment of $.54/Kwhr PV produced until 2020 will easily finance
that addition!

Bill


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 8:22 AM, David Katz  wrote:

> Hi Luke
> I am doing this with a 1200 watt array that is AC coupled to my off grid
> home inverter. I am using an SMA 1800 inverter because it is 120vac.  I use
> a relay connected to the AC  output that connects the 4500 watt water
> heating element to the AC breaker panel when battery voltage reaches the
> bulk setting.  I use the auxiliary output of a Midnite charge controller to
> control the relay.  Using a grid tie inverter is more efficient because the
> array is MPPTracked.  Without the inverter an array connected to a water
> heating element, the array will spend a lot of time off of the. Maximum
> power point, especially n low light, and early and late  in the day.  Also
> the AC coupled array adds to battery charging when needed, before heating
> water.  I see you point, that PV is so cheap, you could add an extra 1000
> watts for the price of the inverter, but be careful what you used to
> disconnect 150+ volts DC.  He temp switch on the water heater will arc and
> fail.
> David Katz
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 13, 2013, at 7:59 PM, "Luke Christy" 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Wrenches,
> Now that the cost of modules has come down so much, has anyone out there
> experimented with solar *electric *water* *heating? As in: direct
> connecting a short series string of PV modules to a tank -style electric
> water heater with an element of an appropriate voltage and wattage rating…?
>
> A off-grid customer of mine who is also an electrical engineer has a
> situation that seems ideal for trying this idea out: he has a gas-fired
> tankless water heater and a water source that is very cold year-round. The
> idea is to take a 30 or 40 gal electric tank heater, switch out one of the
> the 240V elements to something like a 96VDC, 1000W element (difficult to
> find, but available), and direct connect 3 or 4 60-cell modules in series
> (with a disconnect and high-limit control of course). The tank would then
> serve to preheat the cold feed to the tankless heater. We think we can get
> a decent daily temperature rise with this setup. Probably not enough to
> heat the tank to a normal DHW temperature, but certainly enough to offset a
> good deal of propane consumption, and all for what I predict will be
> considerably less cost than a small solar thermal system.
>
> Has anyone tried this? I'd appreciate any insights or opinions.
>
>
> Thanks
> -Luke Christy
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25
> NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03
>
> CoSEIA Certified PV Installer
>
> Solar Gain Services, LLC
> PO Box 531
> Monte Vista, CO. 81144
> sgsrenewab...@gmail.com
> 719.588.3044
> www.sgsrenewables.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cleaning Modules

[Bill Hoffer]

ki
> Joule Energy <http://joule-energy.com/>
> New Orleans, LA
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Micro-inverters for 3-phase 220/127 in Mexico

[Bill Hoffer]

Larry

I believe that APS ( Bluefrog <http://bluefrogsolar.com/aps-inverters>)
micro inverters can be adjusted down to 180 VAC, so they should  work line
to line in your application. I know that their spec sheet and manual do not
indicate that, but I have installed them in adjusted for a 208 VAC and they
have been sending adjusted units to Hawaii.  You will probably have to
contact them directly to see what can be done.

Bill


On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
Systems  wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> A customer in Mexico wants to start with about 10kW PV. They have a 225
> kva transformer supplying 220/127 volt 3-phase to the property. They are
> adding buildings/roof space in several stages over the next 4 years and
> want to grow the installation to 120kW of PV solar power.
>
> Manufacturer data sheets are not real clear. Who makes micro-inverters
> suitable for this? I know Enphase does not.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray

[Bill Hoffer]

llers entered the PV field without first acquiring the
>> necessary skills as journeymen or women electricians.  I don't see the
>> benefit of rewriting the code to accommodate a lack of skills in the
>> industry.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>> PS:  The temperature adders always encourage us to enter the building
>> envelope at the first appropriate location to avoid adding them.
>> Thoughtful installers will do the same.
>>
>> Wm
>>
>>
>> At 10:15 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>> boundary="=_NextPart_000_00E3_01CE29A6.37CC5110"
>> Content-Language: en-us
>>
>> William,
>>
>> I would strongly disagree that conduit is tried and true on rooftops. I
>> have rarely seen good conduit runs on rooftops. Most electricians have no
>> clue how to work with expansion joints. Conduit on rooftops is a bad idea
>> in general. Most conduit runs in big buildings are all done indoors for
>> good reason. We are the crazy people doing things on the roof.
>>
>> The sooner we get away from conduit­particularly for long feeder runs­the
>> better.
>>
>> In Europe they don’t have problems with their rooftop wiring systems
>> because everything is in tray.
>>
>> For those that don’t allow cable tray for anything less than 1/0, just
>> remember that if it isn’t called cable tray, then 392 doesn’t apply. The
>> NEC would allow us to use treated lumber in place of cable tray. This makes
>> no sense.
>>
>> We did some research on the origin of the 1/0 requirement, and it is
>> ancient and no longer relevant. Just because it is in the code, does not
>> mean it is correct. That’s why we try to fix it every three years.
>>
>> Bill.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Bill Hoffer]

Kirk

I can't say exactly on battery life, but it seems to hold up pretty well
and I do like using standard off the shelf batteries, I can always carry
spares because if they are going to go dead you know it is when you are in
the middle of no where!  I prefer rechargeables, but someone always seems
to forget to plug it in when you come back from the field!..oops!  I do
wish they had a better indicator of battery life.  I have had problems
connecting the 200R irradiance RF to the PV150 meter during training , and
it is usually the battery being low in the 200R (9V), but not the PV150,
they seem to last a pretty long time .  Pop in a new one and everything is
OK.

Bill

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

> PS – What’s of battery life like in the Seaward products, in particular
> when using the wireless irradiance meter? I have a Fluke 233 w/ detachable
> remote display. It has a range of about 30 ft. Trouble is every time a pull
> it out after a couple weeks of being turned off the batteries are always
> dead……
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Kirk Herander
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:39 PM
>
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks Bill. It was your excellent HP article which turned me on to
> Seaward products, as applied to full-blown evaluation. I am doing larger
> and more commercial arrays now and this testing is a logical step up in
> professional commissioning. Sure beats the basics using my old Fluke. Now
> the hand-held IR thermal imager, at $6K, is a little harder to justify.***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Bill
> Hoffer
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 13, 2013 5:03 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk
>
> Good to check out, it is a fair amount of money, but being able to safely
> do Isc on a full series string, megging, grounding continuity and DC power,
> it is a handy tool to have.
> I have been using one for over a year now and have been very happy with
> it.  It is relatively quick to use once you get used to it and gives me a
> lot of confidence in the final install knowing that the ground continuity
> is sound, strings are in good shape ( no bad modules or connections ) and
> the array has been safely meg tested ( shorted leads vs , - to Ground and +
> to ground).  Make sure you get the PV150 with extra memory and RF
> capability with the 200R irradiance and cell temp meter.  Clamp on meter is
> good to, with the PV T leads attached will calculate DC power into
> Inverter.
>
> I actually like their single phase Solar Power meter too , since it will
> do kW AC, makes short work of doing Inverter performance validation.  It
> also does PF , Harmonics and will detect phase order for a 3 phase motor.
> Pretty nice, seems most power meters are in the $6k range and start at 3
> phase, so for $500 bucks I think it is a good value.
>
> Keep in mind that the Seaward is designed for European installs where they
> usually have MC4 connectors at each inverter location, so the PV connectors
> supplied are MC4 and Sunclips.  I have adapted the sunclips to Banana stlye
> connectors so I can use standard off the shelf 20 amp 1000 VDC test leads
> and banana clip extensions.  Easy to also use MC4 adapters to any other
> standard connectors.  I wish we used MC4's to the inverters, it would speed
> up commissioning alot!  Sometimes it is a challenge to adapt combiners or
> inverter disconnects to make a spot to use as a test lead when there is no
> where to clamp on.  Hopefully as commissioning of larger installs becomes
> commoner we will see those manufacturers making a test spot more accessible!
>
> Also beware that the Megger only really works for PV Strings and if you
> need to meg wire or motors you will need a standard $500 Megger, I like the
> Fluke 1587 because it has other common meter funtions.  Frankly I do not
> like megging a PV string using a m

Re: [RE-wrenches] Seaward Solarlink

[Bill Hoffer]

Kirk

Good to check out, it is a fair amount of money, but being able to safely
do Isc on a full series string, megging, grounding continuity and DC power,
it is a handy tool to have.
I have been using one for over a year now and have been very happy with
it.  It is relatively quick to use once you get used to it and gives me a
lot of confidence in the final install knowing that the ground continuity
is sound, strings are in good shape ( no bad modules or connections ) and
the array has been safely meg tested ( shorted leads vs , - to Ground and +
to ground).  Make sure you get the PV150 with extra memory and RF
capability with the 200R irradiance and cell temp meter.  Clamp on meter is
good to, with the PV T leads attached will calculate DC power into
Inverter.

I actually like their single phase Solar Power meter too , since it will do
kW AC, makes short work of doing Inverter performance validation.  It also
does PF , Harmonics and will detect phase order for a 3 phase motor.
Pretty nice, seems most power meters are in the $6k range and start at 3
phase, so for $500 bucks I think it is a good value.

Keep in mind that the Seaward is designed for European installs where they
usually have MC4 connectors at each inverter location, so the PV connectors
supplied are MC4 and Sunclips.  I have adapted the sunclips to Banana stlye
connectors so I can use standard off the shelf 20 amp 1000 VDC test leads
and banana clip extensions.  Easy to also use MC4 adapters to any other
standard connectors.  I wish we used MC4's to the inverters, it would speed
up commissioning alot!  Sometimes it is a challenge to adapt combiners or
inverter disconnects to make a spot to use as a test lead when there is no
where to clamp on.  Hopefully as commissioning of larger installs becomes
commoner we will see those manufacturers making a test spot more accessible!

Also beware that the Megger only really works for PV Strings and if you
need to meg wire or motors you will need a standard $500 Megger, I like the
Fluke 1587 because it has other common meter funtions.  Frankly I do not
like megging a PV string using a megger, to me the Seaward is a lot faster
and gives me more useful information all at once ( Voc Isc, Insulation
resistance, irradiance, Cell temp).

I also do training in commissioning testing through Solar Energy
International ( PV351lab)  that allows you to use all the advanced tools
available for commissioning and troubleshooting on live systems in their
lab yard.  Well worth it to get a chance to play with the tools before you
put hard cash down on it.  I also consult independently to train
installation crews in the operation of the Seaward, so you can contact me
off list if you wish to discuss that.


I would not do a larger commercial or utility scale project without the
PV150 as a minimum commissioning tool.  Curve tracing Thermal cameras are
overkill unless you have module failures to track down or Bankability
commissioning requirements for them.  Often they are much more dependent on
conditions than the preliminary Seaward tests.

Highly recommend Seaward as a company and their tool, Great support and
product! Hukseflux recently released a similar tool that just came out for
a little less, but I have not had a chance to evaluate it yet or have I
heard from anyone using it yet.

Good Luck

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Kirk Herander  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> ** **
>
> Can anyone provide user feedback on the Seaward PV test/commissioning
> equipment? I’m thinking of making the $2K investment in their Solarlink
> kit. Thanks.
>
> ** **
>
> Kirk Herander
>
> VT Solar, LLC
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant
>
> NYSERDA-eligible Installer
>
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
>
> 802.863.1202
>
> ** **
>
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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase voltage out of range errors

[Bill Hoffer]

William

Double check your voltage drop on the AC branch circuits, and make sure
that you consider your wiring between inverters.  Remember that voltage
drop is additive and each inverter will see a slightly lower voltage drop
which could account for the voltage over error, especially if you are
seeing it at the end of the string.  Enphase does have a white paper on
that and they are now recommending splitting long strings int he middle to
make to branch circuits out of one now to alleviate this problem.  The
White Paper explains this in more detail.  There was also a Solar Pro
article describing how voltage drop can result in voltage rise at the
inverter, and I have seen and measured this with a meter.  Maybe the
inverters are correctly reporting the voltage rise?

Bill

On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 12:46 PM, William Miller wrote:

> Friends:
>
> We have one site that is experiencing ongoing problems with errors
> indicating, "AC Voltage Out Of Range."  This has occurred on two of 17 M190
> inverters.  Apparently the voltage is not really out of range, the inverter
> is erroneously reporting.
>
> I have one replacement in hand and was just about to drive the 2 hours to
> replace it when another inverter indicated the same problem.  I ordered a
> second replacement.
>
> I fear that soon after I return to my shop from the job I will see another
> inverter with this problem.  Has anyone else experienced this error?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> William
>
> Miller Solar
> Voice :805-438-5600
> email: will...@millersolar.com
> http://millersolar.com
> License No. C-10-773985
>
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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120V grid tie inverter recommendation

[Bill Hoffer]

Carl

Good old American made Exeltech
XLGT1800<http://www.exeltech.com/xlgtproducts.htm>is 120VAC  ,
transformerless and a decent match for a 2kw array.  I have
one running quite well on  a 2.4kw array of 10 itek 240w 60 cell modules on
a tracker.  Seeing a little clipping at mid day (will subside as the module
degrades over time)  , but small compared to my gain in early and late in
the day.  I am very satisfied with its performance.

Bill

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Carl Adams  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
>
> We are looking at a job where we need to install a number of small 2K PV
> systems where we only have 120V AC available.  Is there a good choice for a
> small grid tie AC inverter in this voltage and power range?
>
> With Regards
> Carl Adams
> SunRock Solar
>
>
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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking Recommendations?

[Bill Hoffer]

Ryan

I do not think that they have a 30 degree option, but I have been pretty
impressed with Dynoraxx <http://dynoraxx.com/>tool-less approach and using
fiberglass non-conductive material ( read no grounding of racking).  Now
all we need is a fiberglass non-conducting module frame!

Bill Hoffer

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 12:17 PM, Dana Brandt wrote:

> We just did a system on 10 degree AET and liked it. I think they have a 30
> degree option. I'd be worried about inter-row shading, though.
>
> The DPW POWER-FAB BRM has more flexibility with row spacing, but I found
> it to be pretty expensive.
>
> Dana
>
> Dana Brandt
> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC
> www.ecotechenergy.com
> d...@ecotechenergy.com
> 360.318.7646
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan,
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> We have used the AET Rayport stainless steel ballasted racking system on
>> dozens of installations and have been quite satisfied with the light
>> ballast required (all open racking), integral module grounding, lightweight
>> of materials (pressed stainless steel) and quickness of assembly.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> http://aetenergy.com/products/RAYPORT-B-solar-mount-solution
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Glenn Burt
>>
>> glb, Consulting Company
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
>> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Ryan Harkins
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:32 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Ballasted Roof Racking Recommendations?
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Anyone have recommendations for a ballasted roof racking manufacturer?
>>  Tilts of 30-degrees or more would be best.  
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *Ryan Harkins**
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer /
>> Project Manager*
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco SGB bonding lug

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay

Seems to be the preferred method in salt spray environments like the South
Pacific Islands!  Copper and Aluminum don't play well together under those
conditions

Bill Hoffer

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Jay Peltz  wrote:

> Hi Brian
>
> Isn't another way to go:
> Use the AL lugs and AL grounding wire?
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Aug 27, 2012, at 12:53 PM, Brian Mehalic  wrote:
>
> I believe the UL467 listing means that it is rated for direct
> burial/outdoor use.
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ R031508-59
> IREC ISPQ Certified Affiliated Instructor/PV US-0132
>
> PV Curriculum Developer and Instructor
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
>
> .org
>
>
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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] module glass

[Bill Hoffer]

Marco

Textured glass facing the sun accumulates dirt faster, will not readily
self clean from rain and cannot be easily cleaned in my experience.
Textured surface face down, smooth side sunny side up works like any other
module.

Bill
On Jul 23, 2012 11:35 AM, "Marco Mangelsdorf"  wrote:

>  Does anyone know whether textured glass is better than smooth glass as
> far as reducing soiling, at least when it comes to dust/dirt?
>
> ** **
>
> And how do the two compare as far as transmisstivity over time?
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,
>
> marco
>
> ** **
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof

[Bill Hoffer]

ngs that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how
> variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the
> convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole,
> the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing
> tolerances are probably tighter as well.
>
> FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is
> unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction
> industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof
> warranty. It makes your competition look good.
>
>  We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural
> issue of SolarPro magazine:
>
> http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain
>
>  The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness
> and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many
> quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure
> why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction
> negligence claim.
>
> Drive straight,
>
> David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
> SolarPro magazine
> NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™
> david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
> Direct: 541.261.6545
>
> On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote:
>
>   The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will
> not necessarily add any height to the rail.  If you do need to trim the
> flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding
> sealant to these penetrations.  We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16”
> GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw).  The combination works great and
> does not require a pilot hole.
>
>
>  RSS:
> http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm
>
>
>  GF1
> http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf
>
>
>  Best,
>
>
>  Garrison Riegel
> Project Manager
>
>
>  *Solar Service Inc*
> [p] 847-677-0950
> [f] 847-647-9360
> www.solarserviceinc.com
>
>
>  NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal Installer™
>
>
>
>
>  “There is no room for flashings. The L feet will go very close to the
> skylights and the flashing would hit the edge of them. Plus there is an
> existing array that was done by another installer that is done with L feet
> only. The new array would be higher.”
>
>
>   --
>
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Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof

[Bill Hoffer]

Chris

Bronze Star Construction Lags are what I use.  I usually use the 5/16" and
1/4" with the most thread I can into the truss without popping out the
other side.  I have dropped to #7 with more penetrations if the truss
warranted it.

http://www.screw-products.com/star-drive-construction-lag-screws.htm

Here is their strength tests for 5/16", very comparable to lags.  I tend to
be pretty conservative and use a 2x - 2.5x strength tests safety factor
with almost all my fasteners, especially blind attachment to trusses.  Full
test results are available.

http://www.screw-products.com/specs.htm

I have had luck with Cannon gasket for butyl or EDPM washers, use .75 dia
outer with dia of fastener inner about .25" thick. About $.15 each for
1000, about half that for 2500.  Can order direct online.  Buytl to me
works better since it flows well when tightened.

http://www.cannongasket.com/

I believe there are several manufacturers making these types of screws now,
so there may be other sources.

Hope that helps!



Bill

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Chris Mason wrote:

> Bill,
> Can you provide a link to the product you are using - I found a lot of
> screws on that site but none called "structural".
>
> Thanks
>
> Chris
>
> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Bill Hoffer  wrote:
>
>> Mark
>>
>> Lags for me are old hat after using the newer structural screws.  I get
>> them local from www.screw-products.com although I know there are more
>> companies out there that make them for the Structural Insulation Panel
>> industry.  Thinner than lags with comparable strength, they drive easy with
>> no predrilling, and are less likely to blow out a truss.  Come in many
>> different lengths and use a special star head with a built in washer.  I
>> use thick butyl tape on the foot and a small rubber washer on the screw
>> head , together they work great!  If you want a little more security a dab
>> of the appropriate sealer in the foot slot before finally tightening it
>> down works too.  Only way to go on corrugated metal roofs where there is no
>> real option for flashing.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 3:40 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>> My 18V Milwaukee cordless hammer drill has no trouble driving a 5/16"
>>> lag into anything I've ever encountered.
>>> If you put the lag anywhere near the middle of the rafter it won't
>>> split.  If it splits, it must be some cheap stuff from Home Depot.
>>> Only an engineer with no practical experience would insist on a pilot
>>> hole and the resulting reduction in holding strength.  I'm assuming the IBC
>>> consists of a bunch of bureaucrats that value control over common sense.
>>> In this instance flashing offers no benefit, and may even be
>>> counter-productive if incorrectly installed and it causes rain to collect
>>> under it.  My experience is in northern Indiana where it does rain and the
>>> wind does blow.  (Record 91 mph winds last Thursday.)  Less severe weather
>>> than Michigan, but close.
>>> I use the best silicone caulk Menards has to offer.  I've never worried
>>> about compatibility.  It definitely won't dry up and crack away like the
>>> black roof cement some swear by and insist on.  15+ year old silicone caulk
>>> is yellowed a bit but that's the only change.
>>> If the silicone and shingle aren't getting along, I've never heard them
>>> complain.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>> (Disclaimer: Portions of the preceding are the opinions of the author.)
>>>
>>>   Original Message 
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
>>> From: Dave Click 
>>> Date: Mon, July 02, 2012 10:29 am
>>> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> I always thought that installing lag screws was tough enough with pilot
>>> holes- I should hit the gym. I'm not a structural PE, but I think that
>>> not drilling pilot holes violates the American Wood Council's National
>>> Design Specs and therefore violates the IBC too. I would imagine that
>>> you'd be much more likely to split your trusses. IBC also requires
>>> flashings be used but at least around here inspectors never ask for it
>>> (which makes sense- as you all know, Florida never sees wind or rain,
>>> and definitely not at the same time). What silicone do you use that's
>>> compatible with asphalt shingles?
>>>
>>> DKC
>>>
>>> On 2012/7/1 21:13, m...@hurshtown.com wrote:
>>> > In my 20 yea

Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof

[Bill Hoffer]

 be a good option for you in this case.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Glenn
> >>>
> >>> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >>> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> >
> >>> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
> *On Behalf Of
> >>> *Drake
> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, June 28, 2012 6:40 PM
> >>> *To:* RE-wrenches
> >>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
> >>>
> >>> I'm quoting a job that has an existing array with L feet bolted
> >>> down to a shingle roof with no flashings. I want to match the
> >>> height of the existing array. Also some modules are being worked
> >>> in around skylights where it is unlikely that room would be
> >>> available for flashings to center over rafters.
> >>>
> >>> I've always used flashings. Would it be completely crazy to
> >>> follow suit of the existing array and bolt L feet straight to the
> >>> shingle roof with good roof sealant? If so, how would you seal it?
> > Drake Chamberlin
> > ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
> > OH License 44810
> > CO license 3773
> > NABCEP Certified PV
> > 
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Bill Hoffer PE
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Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] poly tape

[Bill Hoffer]

Jay

I have gotten it at the HomeDepot and Lowes in the roofing sections,
usually thinner than I like, but easy to double it up!  Of course they may
not carry it anymore since it is not a volume product.

Bill

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 7:22 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm looking for some poly butyl tape for L feet.
>
> Recommendations as to where to get it?
>
> thanks in advance
>
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
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-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Washington made

[Bill Hoffer]

Mark

Try http://bluefrogsolar.com/wa-made-solar-products  I believe that they
are now shipping a Washington made micro inverter.  There is one other
microinverter, but I do not believe that they have passed UL yet and have
not gone public.

Bill Hoffer

Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165

On Wed, Apr 18, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Mark Dickson  wrote:

> ** ** ** **
>
> Hello Wrenches, 
>
> We have been asked to participate in a small bid on Washington** **
> State.  I am having a hard time finding made in 
> Washingtongrid-tied inverters and solar modules in order to fulfill 
> their rebate
> requirements.  So far I have come across Silicon Energy and Itek Energy.  A
> micro-inverter would be a plus.  Are there any others that I should be
> looking into?
>
> ** **
>
> Best regards,
>
> ** **
>
> Mark Dickson,
>
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ™
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
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[RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments

[Bill Hoffer]

Esteemed Wrenches

I have a large 100 kw project coming up in the South Pacific on an Island
and wanted to see what others have been doing in these locations.

Checking the archives it has been awhile since this topic has been
discussed.  I would like an update for best practices and lessons learned
when installing solar in a very high Salt Spray Environments.  With some
modules getting the new IEC 61701 Salt Spray certification  ( Schott ,
Canadian Solar , Evergreen Sanyou HIT, Serephim Solar, Upsolar ) it seems
the industry is starting to pay attention to these locations rather than
writing warranties that give them an out.

Any info on what products have done well ( or not) and best practices to
minimize corrosion issues would be very welcome.

Thanks

Bill

-- 
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Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
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East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AUO ac moudles

[Bill Hoffer]

Todd

I have been researching micro inverters and AC modules for another client
and have been wondering about GFDI requirements on the DC side, according
to the NEC code an AC module may be permitted to have GFDI on the AC side
only, apparently because it has been tested as a " complete ,
environmentally protected unit ".  This is a no brainer with units like the
Exceltech AC module which is integrated into the junction box of the
module, but the AUO brand seems to be also listed as an AC module which has
normal MC4 connectors between the module and inverter (kinda jerry rigged
in my opinion).  This makes me think that there is a potential for a DC
ground fault, but because of the AC Module listing on this unit , as far as
I can tell, does not have  an integrated GFDI.  My main concern is safety
and liability, but there seems to be a real gaggle of wiring under the
module w/o a good way to protect it from damage on the roof.  There could
be a situation of a DC ground fault causing a fire on a residence that
would result in some legal finger pointing, which I would not like to have
pointed back to me as an installer!

As far as how well this AC module performs, I have no field experience.
There seems to be a real disconnect between UL 1741 requirements and what
the testing authorities are calling AC modules and the the intent of the
NEC GFDI requirements on the DC side.  I am concerned that the final
interpretation will fall on the local inspector and cause a lot of grief
for us installers.  IMHO installers need to beware of this hassle potential
and at a minimum insure that their local inspector accepts it before
installing and make sure your insurance is up to date!

It would be interesting to hear from Bill Brooks on this one!

Bill

Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Apparent power

[Bill Hoffer]

Keith

I was involved with doing some testing with these guys for a company that
wanted to manufacture them in Washington State ( made in WA incentives) and
the concept is good, but I had a lot of questions that they were not able
to answer.  Big one is the inverter was producing 10watts all night long (
smoke and mirrors!) .  This is in my opinion is only possible if the
inverter is playing with power factor from the grid, possible maybe in a
commercial setting, but less likely to be too big of a gain in a
residential setting where Power factor issues are generally less
pronounced.  I never was able to get solid answers about what was actually
happening and at the time I did not have good enough Power analysis
monitoring equipment  ( I was going by several meters  and clamp ons and
the monitoring software from the inverter itself.  I was able to adjust the
power factor and gain some output, but with out actually monitoring what
was happening simultaneously with high end Power Quality equipment I could
not tell what was really happening.  Again no solid responses from
Apparant.  Again when I am getting more output than is possible from the
module, something seems fishy, or at least using power from the grid to
increase the output on the inverter seems a little crooked) So at this
point I would recommend buyer beware , concept is good , but until the
utility starts paying a premium for power factor adjustment ( or a
commercial install needs power factor adjustment I do not see how the added
features can be cost effective.   IMHO, I am not convinced that this
inverter is really doing what they are claiming, however I would love to be
proved wrong!

Bill


Bill Hoffer PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com Cell:(509)679-6165
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Shedding ice

[Bill Hoffer]

Bob

Wonder how Module manufacturer warranties will handle applying reverse
current to the module , especially if it is more than the power rating of
the module???  I would want that one in writing before risking having to
write off an array in order to melt a little snow!

Bill

On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 4:37 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com
wrote:

>  On 1/17/2012 4:18 PM, benn kilburn wrote:
>
>  boB,
> If this concept were to become a working option for the Classic, would the
> modules have to be modified in any way?  Why are the diodes not blocking
> the reverse current?
> benn
>
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
> b...@daystarsolar.ca
> 780-906-7807
> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>
>
>
>
> No mods.  However, as you can see, if the controller is maxed out as far as
> array size, that could limit the snow melting effect.   I don't have any
> hard
> data as for the minimum power needed to apply to the array for snow
> melting,
> but it could be around twice the power to melt snow as the power rating of
> the array.   Yesterday's experiment was less than 2wice the power rating
> and it may have been fine with with even less, so that's a very good sign.
>
> How much power does it take to melt snow off of a car's rear window from
> the electric defroster ?  It's a similar kind thing.
>
> Diodes ??  You mean the bypass diodes ??   No problem.  Those don't
> conduct in this case.
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  --
> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:14:36 -0800
> From: b...@midnitesolar.com
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Shedding ice
>
> On 1/16/2012 11:39 AM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Mark,
> I believe the Midnite Classic has this feature built in. Check with them.
> David Katz
>
>
>
>
> It just snowed up here in Arlington, Washington A.C.  and we were just
> starting to melt some snow
> on a couple of modules on our roof just now with one of our charge
> controllers here in the lab.
>
> This feature is not yet in the Classic, BUT, check out this experiment
> that I did about 3 years ago
> in my front yard with an animated gif time lapse.
>
> One module is being powered and the other is not powered, just sitting
> there for comparison.
> These are KC125s.
>
> The time involved here was about 3 hours and took about 1 kW-hour of
> energy but gives you
> an idea of what may be done with this idea.  One thing not in our favor
> here is that the module
> that is being powered is resting on the ground, in the snow, which would
> significantly
> hinder snow melting I would think rather than being properly mounted.
>
> Oh what fun it is to melt some PV snow tonight !
>
> http://fusion.midnitesolar.com/PVsnowMelt3.gif
>
> boB
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  *From*: Mark Dickson [mailto:m...@oasismontana.com]
>
> *Sent*: Monday, January 16, 2012 10:00 AM
> *To*: 'RE-wrenches' 
> 
> *Subject*: [RE-wrenches] Shedding ice
>
>
> I recall a conversation a while back about the possibility of “reversing”
> the current in a solar module to increase the cell temp enough to shed
> ice/rime.  To follow-up, has anybody been successful at this?  I am
> guessing, if so, it would entail, removal of diodes, increasing PV and
> battery capacity and some way to sense the ice at the very least. . . It
> sounds good in theory, but I am skeptical as to whether it will work in
> reality. . .
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Mark Dickson,
>
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ™
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] array commissioning

[Bill Hoffer]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] High PSF Mods?

[Bill Hoffer]

Jeff

Sorry random keyboard typing  caused a pre-mature send...


Silicon Energy should be at SPI this year and they are manufactured now in
Washington State and Minnesota  see www.silicon-energy.com for details

Bill

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:

>  Hello Again Wise and Knowledgeable,
>
> What's folks favorite modules for high psf ratings?  I know RECS have high
> ratings.  Others?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Clearwater
> Village Power Design
>
> Renewable Energy Consultant
> 32 Years in all Aspects of Renewables
> www.villagepower.com
> skype: jclearwater
> 413-559-9763
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Re: [RE-wrenches] High PSF Mods?

[Bill Hoffer]

Jeff

Silicon Energy has a 125 PSF rated module which slightly exceeds 5400 Pa (
113 PSF).  I would guess that it can actually handle a lot more than that.
Good looking module with a cascading mounting system included that also
makes a clean raceway for the wiring for a very clean install.  Frameless on
two edges to allow rain snow and dust tor easily run off.  It is a bit
spendy, but I would guess that it is one of the toughest modules in the
market.

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:

>  Hello Again Wise and Knowledgeable,
>
> What's folks favorite modules for high psf ratings?  I know RECS have high
> ratings.  Others?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Clearwater
> Village Power Design
>
> Renewable Energy Consultant
> 32 Years in all Aspects of Renewables
> www.villagepower.com
> skype: jclearwater
> 413-559-9763
> ~
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module Racking Attachment to SIP Roof

[Bill Hoffer]

Gary

Has anyone checked with the SIP manufacturer, this is a laminated structure
and will have more holding power than simple sheathing between rafters
(which is still doable with larger mounting plates and multiply short
screws).  It could be that they have performed shear and pull out tests when
mounting directly to the sheathing.  SIP's are engineered and you should be
able to find engineering data to justify a mounting system.  The bolt
through with steel plates on both sides sounds like overkill to me, even if
the pull out was less than needed doubling up or tripling up screwed plates
on the surface  designed for holding into sheathing seems the better
solution, a lot less labor in the long run.

Bill

On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:48 AM, R Ray Walters  wrote:

> One problem that came up on a project recently, is that your penetrations
> (as proposed in your solution below) will essentially ruin the thermal
> performance of the SIPs system.
> The whole point of the SIPs system is that there are no thermal short
> circuits  such as framing members that allow heat to be transmitted around
> all that insulation.
> The project I was referring to was with NREL, and a smart engineer caught
> it, and forced the PV contractor to mount in a way without penetrations.
> I also work with very savvy architects that are now specifying minimal
> penetrations through the thermal envelope.
> I'd suggest a standing seam roof, with S5 clamps. Ask the roofer to use
> extra attachment screws, if you're worried.
>
>
> R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
>
>
>
>
>
> One solution could be a product that had a bolt-plate on the bottom of the
> SIP, that penetrates the SIP with long 5/16" threaded bolt(s), and then
> attaching to the PV mount at the top of the SIP. The UniRac SolarMount steel
> flat-top mount has four 5/16" bolt-holes and might be a good choice. This
> method should have no problem achieving the required pull-out resistance.
>
> Any suggestions, installation experience, on how to put PV on a SIP roof?
>
>  --
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Gary Willett, PE
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] SolarWorld Poly

[Bill Hoffer]

Nik

I just bought a new mono solarworld 250 and it also has a new stle frame
with no feet, I believe they have switched to the new frame for all their
models now.  Limits options for mounting to only using top clips, not good
in my opinion.   I believe they are working on their own clip system, last I
saw it looked a bit "German" and a liitle too fancy for my tastes.  I have
not compared glass surfaces between the two models, but I would suspect that
they are switchign to the " cheaper reflective glass on all their new
models.  Cutting cost in one place and adding in another!  Over all thouh a
good solid module.

Bill

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Nik Ponzio wrote:

> Esteemed Wrenches,
>
> I have been using a lot of SolarWorld mono-crystalline modules this year
> and I am quite happy with the product. This week we installed our first
> SolarWorld poly-crystalline array. I was surprised at how different the two
> modules are. The glass on the poly module is highly reflective. I went so
> far as to call my distributor to make sure I hadn't gotten a bad batch that
> missed the anti-reflective coating step. That's what it seems like!
>
> The other significant difference is the frame style used. The Poly are only
> compatible with top-down clamping. I was aware of this from the datasheets
> but I had no idea that the glass would be so different.
>
> Take a look at some side-by-side photos here:
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/109634809794570027207/SolarWorldMonoVsPoly?authkey=Gv1sRgCMuLy4v_ivTUAg&feat=directlink
>
> Just a heads-up to anyone considering getting into SolarWorld.
>
> Happy Summer!
> Nik
>
> --
> Nicholas Ponzio
> Building Energy
> 1570 South Brownell Road
> Williston, VT 05495
> http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] New Inverter or New Scam????

[Bill Hoffer]

I was looking at a new inverter for a client of mine, Solar King 2000 and
4000, apparantly there are 50 or more installed in CA already and also quite
a few in Europe.  They always seem to have large numbers installed, but I
can rarely find anyone who has used onethat might be a clue.   It is
made in Taiwan, by PCM  (ups background) for the Top Green Company.  I am
wondering if any Wrenches have had any experience or even have seen them
yet.  There is such a proliferation of inverter manufacturers trying to
break into the American market , one cannot be too careful these days!
Buyer Beware!

Thanks for any and all comments

Bill
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Heavy Duty Modules?

[Bill Hoffer]

Doug

Silicon Energy in Washington makes a bomb proof module that is spendy, but
would hold up at $4.75/watt (comes with mounting frame).  There is no frame
on the lower and upper edge which helps snow slide off and they are
laminated with thick Sentry glass by Dupont which is typically used for
hurrican and bullet proof glass.  We tested one with 3600 lbs of sand bags
on it and 6 guys jumping up and down on it before we finally broke it. They
have an interesting frame that contains the wiring and is accessible from
the front.  I also agree that a steeper angle and somewhere for the snow to
pile up is essential.

www.silicon-energy.com   or call Mike Farrell  mfarr...@silicon-energy.com
supp...@silicon-energy.com
(360)539-1851  cell (425) 319-2780

Bill
Bill Hoffer PE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Spot welding PV's to rails for theft prevention: bad idea?

[Bill Hoffer]

Mick

Solar World welds their frame corners, but use a laser with high precision
and very low heat.  I have seen racks in Haiti welded instead of bolted to
keep people from walking off with the entire rack.  I would not recommend
welding a module frame, Too risky and would probably void warranty.  Of
course you can not warranty a stolen module either!  However welding a cross
bar to the racking that locks the module in place may be a reasonable
alternative because you could weld away from the frame.  Use asbestos
protection to keep harmful heat away from the module.  That just might work,
would be harder to replace, but harder to steal also...although some
thief would still find a way around it!  Now all we need is a way to protect
against drunk hunters shooting holes in the modules for target practice!

Bill

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Mick Abraham  wrote:

> Hello, we mounted some PV onesy modules as high as we could reach without a
> man-lift, but an enterprising thief could reach just as high. The "side of
> pole" mounts hold the bolt heads captive so I bought some aluminum
> "breakaway" nuts. However the nuts have a big diameter which would not fit
> inside the Kyocera PV frames.
>
> Has anyone tried spot welding the PV frames direct to the aluminum rails to
> which they are mounted? Would this over stress the glass laminate or cause
> other problems? I realize this would void the Kyo warranty but nothing voids
> system performance like a stolen PV module.
>
> Happy Friday,
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Voice: 970-731-4675
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me!

[Bill Hoffer]

Larry

My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a
considerable "edge" over my competition because I have invested the time
energy and went through the stress of taking the exam.  It is the same way
with NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and
stress to get the qualification.  I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the
time and effort to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and
effort, it is good to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that
away from me, because you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a
break!  You have the right to run your business and promote it as you see
fit and so do I!  Does any qualification mean that you know everything, of
course not.  If any one of us think that, then we should get out of the
business.  Cause guess what, we are in a rapidly changing landscape where we
all are continually learning more and growing as an industry.  Otherwise
there would not be much use in this blog at all.  All an exam really means
is that you took the time, energy and stress to prepare for and take the
exam, which to me is a sign of professionalism.  It is about time our
industry grows up!  Is NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all have the
opportunity to help to make this organization the best that it can be.  I
applaud the pioneers who had the vision and that were willing to invest the
considerable amount of time, energy and stress to pull it off.  If you can
do without it , more power to you, but don't whine to me about it being
unfair that we want to toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this
industry!

Bill
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Strawbale wall penetration

[Bill Hoffer]

Benn

I used PVC in the my bale walls with a Junction Box on both sides of the
penetration to protect the penetration  (Outside a must!).  I used EMT for
all my other wiring, but PVC seems better for an interior to exterior
penetration where the heat conduction of the EMT may cause some damaging
condensation towards the exterior of the bales.  I used a hammer drill and
concrete bits to get through my stucco, it is tough stuff.  I used 2 "
conduit so I had to make several smaller holes and knock it out by hand.   I
did not have rebar in my bales, but heavyduty 6x6 mesh to get through, as
would be expected I never was able to hit the middle of the grid, I just had
to cut and hack saw when I hit something, pays to have a sacrificial bit to
find the metal.  I then fashioned a home made bit out of the conduit and
used that to get through the bales by hand.  That went pretty easy and will
allow you to locate the rebar without damaging an expensive bit .  Hard part
is lining up to get a good mark on the opposite side.  I used foam to fill
any gaps, replastered around the pipe and fitting and caulked really well to
seal against water on the outside.  I also located the JB on the outside of
the building in a very protected area for additional security.  Water and
straw bales do not play well together!  If anything I would favor a slight
slope downward on the outside so if there is a leak it will not follow the
pipe inward into the bales.

Hope that helps!

Bill

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:05 AM, benn kilburn  wrote:

>  Wrenches,
> Short of contacting the builder, i'm looking for your experiences,
> practices and "look-out's" for penetrating a strawbale exterior wall with
> conduit.
>
> For the project in question there is currently a teck cable from a wind gen
> entering the home by sharing a HRV vent opening that i want to fix (not my
> original system by the way) and i will also be adding another penetration
> for a PV array that i am relocating on the property. The original
> penetration for the PV was done properly but its not in an ideal location
> for the re-located array wiring.
>
> I'm wondering if it is as simple as using a hole saw extension to go thru
> the ~16" wall and use an LB/box on either side.  I'm sure there is some
> framework and/or rebar supporting the bales, how do you locate/avoid these
> when there are no corners to measure from?  (it is a round home)
> Any knowledge if PVC or EMT will react in anyway with the bales?  I'm
> thinking that PVC would be best?
>
> ... i am trying to contact the builder to address this, and also to ask a
> few choice questions regarding the wiring methods (he?) used in the original
> PV system set-up.
>
> Cheers,
> benn
>
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.
> b...@daystarsolar.ca
> 780-906-7807
> HAVE A SUNNY DAY
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Megger for array testing

[Bill Hoffer]

Joel

You are correct about the UL testing requiring 2 x system voltage plus 1000
volts. The UL requirement is also to ramp up to the full voltage in 5 sec
and held for 1 min, which I believe most meggers are capable of.  The test
is considered a failure if greater than 50 uA current is measured.  The
difference is that the connection is between the shorted outputs of the
module and the ground.  In the case of the required factory tests one end of
the high pot testing device is connected to the frame (ground) and one point
is connected to both the negative and positive  module terminals shorted
together.  In the UL test it is done with the module submerged one terminal
of the high pot tester is connnected to a ground plane in the water and the
other terminal is connected to the negative and positive terminals shorted
together.  In both cases the voltage potential across the module terminals
(through the module)  is 0, but between the terminals and ground is the 2 x
system voltage plus 1000.  The module never sees 2200 volts potential across
the cells and diodes.  The test is normally run again reversing the
polarity, but the terminals still are shorted together.  I have performed
this test in the factory and observed it being done this way during UL
testing.
*
UL1703 Section 21 Leakage Current Test *specifies shorted module output
circuits System Voltage is the test level required

21.5 All accessible parts and surfaces are to be tested for leakage current.
*The positive and negative
terminals of an unilluminated module are to be connected together and to one
terminal of a dc power
supply.* Both polarities of the source connection are to be used, unless it
can be shown that one polarity
will represent both. Leakage currents are to be measured between the part or
surface and the other
terminal of the power supply.  System Voltage is the test level required and


*UL1703 Section 26 Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Test *does not specify
shorted module outputs, but does specify 2 x system voltage plus 1000V

*UL1703 27 Wet Insulation Test* does specify Shorted output terminals of the
module (and only 500vdc)
27.3 After two min of immersion in the solution, the *insulation resistance
between the shorted output
terminals of the module or panel and the solution is to be measured, in both
polarities*, with an instrument
having a voltage of 500 Vdc.

*43 Factory Dielectric Voltage-Withstand Test*  Also doe snot specify
shorted out puts

The IEC 61215 is more explicit in all test cases it specifies using the
shorted output terminals for all these tests.  IMHO the IEC is the better
document to follow (which is what the listing agencies all do when things
are not defined well in UL1703).  The industry will be much better off once
we standardize with the IEC!

In my experience all three tests for UL listing are performed in the same
way on shorted output terminals.  I would recommend that the megger test be
performed in the same way especially for field confirmation procedures for
commissioning a system.  This will still give you the intended results
(identifying a potential short to ground) without the risk of applying
unnecessary voltage across the module cells or diodes.  I do not want to be
explaining a failed module to the manufacturer or customer after subjecting
it to 2200 + volts across the cells or diodes!  You would never meg across
an inverter input either, even though they are also high pot tested for
listing.  Of course standard procedures for megging wire runs without the
inverter or modules in the circuit can be done at those higher levels
without a problem.

Bill

Bill Hoffer PE
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762
Cell(509)679-6165


On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Joel Davidson
wrote:

>  Hello Drake,
>
> I think you should talk to a Sanyo Solar engineer to get accurate
> information. Every Sanyo and other brand UL listed modules must be
> dielectric voltage-withstand factory tested to 2 times system voltage plus
> 1,000 volts. I hi-pot test modules in the factory at 3,000 volts so they
> will meet UL and also IEC standards. I megger field test arrays at 1,000
> volts to find module, connector, and wiring problems. Megging at 500 volts
> is ok, but it may not reveal wire insulation problems.
>
> Joel Davidson
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Drake 
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 17, 2010 7:36 AM
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Megger for array testing
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> Looking through the archives on using a Megger  for testing modules, it
> appears that it is best to keep voltages to 500VDC.  I read all that I could
> find.
>
> Talking to a Sanyo representative, I was told that keeping test voltage
> under 600 would not void the warranty or be an issue with UL.  He said they
> have tested Sanyo modules up 

Re: [RE-wrenches] lifting shingles

[Bill Hoffer]

Bennett
I have a roof similar to the one you described.   It was designed for
coastal regions of Alaska, heat-freeze cycling and high winds.  Roofer
warned me that I better plan my penetrations because after season in the sun
I would never be able to lift the shingle again!  That being said have you
tried a hot knife?  L feet seem like the way to go! Good luck!

Bill
On Oct 7, 2010 2:05 AM, "benn kilburn"  wrote:
>
> salute, i was inspecting a (~3yr old) 2/12 pitch roof for an upcoming
install that was going to have flashed roof connection points and noticed
that i could not lift up any of the shingles for installing the flashing.
the sealing strip that holds the upper shingle to the one below it, is
aggressively stubborn. i tried several in the area of the array location and
they are all sealed down very well, much better than any other comp shingle
i've come across, which typically lift and separate from the 'sticky strip'
with a careful little tug on the shingle. all the ones i tried began to tear
the back off the top shingle that i was trying to lift. i'm told these are a
higher quality comp shingle and are well suited for low pitch roofs, they
have a 35 yr warranty.
> i contacted the shingle mfg. tech support and after explaining what i was
doing his suggestion was literally "try lifting them when its warm out then
try when its cold out, see if that works." thanks tips!
> my first thought was to use a torch to heat and soften up the shingles'
sealing strips that i needed to lift. i'm not surprised that the shingle
tech did not endorse this method. i'm not thrilled about it either. just
having a propane bottle and torch on the roof, risk of overheating (burning)
the shingles, extra time to do this, are things i'd prefer to avoid.
> i'm sure if done carefully this method would work, but i'm a little more
cautious than just trying it without asking around so i've been contacting a
few roofers i've worked with, as well i'm wondering if any of you have come
across this issue of having to lift particularly well-sealed comp shingles
and how you have dealt with it.
> if the consensus is to stay away from the torch then i'm prepared to go
with the good ol' l-feet on this one.
> cheers,benn
> DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. b...@daystarsolar.ca780-906-7807 HAVE A
SUNNY DAY
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] White Paper on on the affects of a "snow, melt, refreeze process" (no pun intended)

[Bill Hoffer]

Lee


I worked on a job on Washington pass in Washington state about 12 years ago,
near the border of Canada in the North Cascades wilderness area.  Design
snow load was specified 200 #/sq ft as I recall (far greater than the forces
on a module at 120 mph wind load) and the Cascades are known for wet heavy
snow storms.  Mt Baker Ski area (very close as the crow flys to the pass)
had the record recorded snow fall of over 1,140 inches total for the 1998-99
snowfall season.  The storm that took out the array was over 200" in one
storm, they had to shut down to dig the lifts out, riding the lifts
afterwards the snow was over the towers and well above the chair lifts!  It
was a low pitch metal roof (in snow country a big no no).  I ran main beams
North and south and then connected Solarex rails going East to West.  The
rails were 4 inches above the roof, leaving the modules approximately 7"
above the roof.  The melt freeze melt freeze process you mentioned built up
under the modules until it frost upheaved and broke every module shattering
the glass from behind. The mounting system actually held the frames down!
It was a 3Kw system that had to be replaced (some how covered by
warranty???).  Now every winter they take the array down until the spring
(was not being used during the winter anyways).

So I have experienced one rare time the situation you are asking about, but
it was a severe weather situation and an uncommonly low sloped roof for the
environment.  I have never heard of it ever happening to anyone else, but if
I had to design for this location again I would do it very differently!  A
rare occurrence, probably outside of the 100 year storm statistic,  but it
did happen and it was my first job as a solar engineer!

That's my story and I am sticking to it!

Bill


On Aug 5, 2010 12:47 PM, "Lee Bristol"  wrote:

Wrenches,

Has anybody come across an analysis of the potential damage to a flat
roof from snow on solar modules melting to form an ice layer on the
roof and then forming subsequent layers as more snow melts or slides
down the modules?  If the sheet gets thick enough then the next bit of
water could form ice layer under edge of panel and lift it up.  Seems
very unlikely to me but the prospect has questionsand prospect
questions must be answered.

Thanks!

Lee

--
Lee Bristol
NABCEP Certified Solar Designer/Installer

Chief Technology Officer
Standard Solar, Inc.
1355 Piccard Drive
Rockville, MD 20850
(301) 944-5105
(240) 479-1510 (c)
www.standardsolar.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rip in panel backing

[Bill Hoffer]

Brian

In my past life working for a module manufacturer, we used Dow Corning PV
804 silicone sealant. It comes in black and white flavors, usually not found
off the shelf at Home Depo.   I believe it is the standard used by most
module manufacturers and the only silicon sealant that meets UL746 Polymeric
materials for electrical applications (Insulating tabs electrically).  We
experimented with many types with similar results, but when UL listing a
module you can only use UL listed components (or you get to pay to perform
those tests on that material too!).  The price of PV 804 reflects the UL
listing.  You would need to ask a chemist at Dow Corning if it has a
different composition than the common off the shelf varieties.  It is great
stuff, sticks to everything (especially opposite colored pants!) and moves
well between two materials that may expand and contract at different rates
with varying temperatures, like a module is often exposed to.

Bill

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Brian Teitelbaum
wrote:

>  I like Blair’s idea, but I’ve always used a silicone sealant that doesn’t
> use acetic acid as the curing agent. Dow #739 is one type, but any silicone
> sealant that is rated as food-grade, or for aquariums, should work fine. The
> 739 is a “moisture-cure”, 100% silicone, which uses moisture present in the
> air as the curing agent. I was told many years ago that this is the stuff
> that is used by module manufacturers to attach and seal module junction
> boxes and the exit point in the laminate where the tabs come out. It would
> be great if a module rep could confirm this with us.
>
>
>
> Brian Teitelbaum
>
> AEE Solar
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Blair May
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 25, 2010 3:09 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Rip in panel backing
>
>
>
> I use a heat gun to remove moisture & smooth out the rip then I've used
> some bitchathane w/ foil tape over that.
>
> I am not sure about the possible corrosive effects of the silicone during
> curing.
>
> -Original Message-
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *bob
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 25, 2010 5:49 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Rip in panel backing
>
> I have a customer who just put a rip in the (tedlar?) on the back of a
> Solar World 175 watt panel. For some reason he thought that he needed to
> move the leg to a different hole on his RGM mount instead of just collapsing
> it.
>
> What’s the best way to seal it back up?
>
> There is no other internal damage that is noticeable its about 1.5” long
> and ½” at the widest end.
>
> My first thought is to use silicone caulk, but I thought I would pick the
> collective brain, so to speak.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob Ellison
>
>
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>


-- 
Bill Hoffer PE
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee WA 98802-3941
suneng...@gmail.com (509)470-7762
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing

[Bill Hoffer]

Ray

I think that the point is not the cost, but what is good electrical design!

Voltage Drop in a wire is still undesirable and equates to an unneeded
"heat" load on the wire.  Are we advocating that if your water pipe is too
small just increase the pressure so you get the same output you desired.
Sure as long as you are well within the operational limits of what the pipe
was designed to do (over the lifetime expectancy of the product).  Maybe for
a short period of time that is fine, but we are talking about a system that
we want to perform for 25+ years.  I am sure we have all seen 25+ year old
wiring in a house that has become brittle due to operating right at the
limit, not enough to pop the breaker, but enough over a long period of time
to deteriorate the copper.  Heat is not our friend.

The worse use of solar electricity is for heating, and I really do not want
to install extra PV just to heat my wire.  Nobody said that good electrical
design was cheap!  I will continue to design my voltage drop at 1.5% and as
always attempt to meet that goal as inexpensively as possible.  NEC is a
minimum we need to meet and is not necessarily the best electrical design
practice!  When we are talking about Mega-watt commercial installations, It
would be pretty silly to have a system shut down (ie lost production = lost
investment money) because of saving some money on wire.

Bill Hoffer PE
Sunergy Engineering Services PLLC

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:41 PM, R Ray Walters  wrote:

> Over the same amount of time a similar investment in PV would save even
> more money.
>
> R. Walters
> r...@solarray.com
> Solar Engineer
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 8, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:
>
> Guys,
> Is it just me being dense or are none of you folks advocating for higher VD
> looking at the savings over time?
> If we assume that Kent's wire costs are correct (and even assuming a 33%
> mark-up, he's paying WAY, WAY too much for wire) , the difference in
> delivered watts between #10 and # 4 wire in this situation is 91W. If I were
> installing this in Southern Oregon, which is pretty average as far as peak
> sun hours/day go, we'd be looking at 91 x 4.5 (peak sun hours) x 365days/yr
> x 25yrs = 3736 KW/H. Even at $0.10/KWH that's about $375 AT TODAY'S POWER
> RATES. Anyone think those rates are going to stay the same or go down over
> the next 25 years? Anybody think they won't go up by 5X? 10X? 20X?
> So... for what and for whom are we designing these systems?
> Bob-O
>
> On Apr 8, 2010, at 12:40 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
>
>  Nick,
>
> Advocating for an economic comparison between the cost of wire and the
> energy saved by larger wire is not the same as advocating for high voltage
> drops, or low ones either.  Even with the present low prices for PV modules
> and high prices for copper wire, a 100-ft long 350-volt dc input to a 3-kW
> inverter should have around 1% voltage drop.   Now consider a 350-volt
> 10-amp PV circuit that's 500 feet long.  Using 12 AWG copper the dc voltage
> drop would be 5.5%.  Sounds like that might be a poor wire choice, right?
> Look what happens as the wire size is increased:
>
>   Conductor Power $ per
> AWG   $/ft   Cost  Loss  watt saved
>  12 0.62  $620193W (5.5%) --
>  10 0.95  $950123W (3.5%)$4.71
>   8 1.54  $1540 77W (2.2%)  $12.83
>   6 2.37  $2370 49W (1.4%)  $29.64
>   4 3.73  $3730 32W (0.9%)  $80.00
>
> It would be reasonable to use 10 AWG copper, but before going up to 8 AWG,
> I'd consider buying more PV instead.  Why buy a watt of power at $12.83 when
> it cost less to buy a watt of PV?  The conductor price used here, just for
> illustration, is from Southwire's price list for THHN/THWN wire dated 7
> April 2010.  In the column of conductor costs I only considered the cost of
> two current carrying wires.  The cost of the equipment ground wire, conduit,
> connectors, etc all go up too.  That makes the dollars per watt saved look
> even worse.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
>
>
> Nick Soleil wrote:
>
> I feel that it is best to maintain a 1.5% voltage drop on the AC and DC.
> However, I was just sizing conductors for a 400 KW project, with the array
> 1000' from the main service panel.  With AC modules, I would have needed
> 5-Parallel runs of 700MCM at 208VAC (20 wires at 700MCM for 1.5%VD!)  The
> cost would have been over 100K, which was cost prohibitive.  However, by
> running DC wiring, and utilzing AL, we were able to maintain 1.5 VDC drop
> without being too expensive (yet still expensive.)
>
> Nick Soleil
> Project Manag

Re: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen

[Bill Hoffer]

I also agree with Dave that based on the current pricing of modules it is
proabably more cost effective with less maintenance issues going with more
fixed modules vs a tracker.  Water pumping is one case where it may make
sense to use a tracker.  It is also good to consider a tracker here in the
eastern slopes of the Cascade Mountains of the Pacific NW if you are grid
tied and trying to maximize your pay back with a grid tied installation (Wa
state incentives and green tags are based on yearly production).  We have
high overcast days predominatly in the winter further reducing our solar
gain during those months.  To get the most out of my system I must maximize
my production during the summer months with a tracker.  Also as a side note
the 1kw system I currently have produces an excess of power during the
summer months that almost carries me for the winter months when I need more
from the grid.  Resultng in a near zero energy home, even though I have
electric heating (at $0.0175/kw hydro power off the Columbia no other source
makes sense).  In addition my energy demands are quite low with my small
passive solar straw bale house.

Bill Hoffer PE
Sunergy Engineering


-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]on Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 12:17 PM
To: dk...@aeesolar.com; 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen

Dave,
That is a good a point that we have mulled over. Here in CO we get a monsoon
in summer that it will be clear in the AM and build up to showers and then
clear at sunset. This would not validate the tracker all by itself but it
does allow for max output while the sun shines. Lack of space could be part
of the issue for a tracker decision over fixed too. And then there are
clients who just got to have the tracker, no arguments there.

One comment from my neighbors is that the fixed arrays and the flat plates
do reflect in their windows a couple of times a year in spring and again in
fall but never a complaint from the tracker as the azimuth and elevation are
perfect all the time.

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com
E - d...@solarwork.com
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Katz
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 12:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Evergreen

Since modules are getting so inexpensive, the big questions is what is the
best way to get 33% more power? Is it better to use 33% more modules on a
fixed array, or use a tracker?  Which one costs less?  It costs $1.50 to
$2.00 per watt for a tracker.   If modules cost $3 per watt and a fixed
mount costs $.040 per watt , 33% of $3.40 per watt is $1.12 per watt.   And
trackers don't come with a 25 year power output warranty.  I see tackers
making sense when the array is powering a centrifugal pump in the summer or
possible a time-of-use grid tie that pays more in the summer.  You are
definitely better off with more modules on a fixed array in an off grid
situation because you always need more power in the winter when the tracker
is least effective.
David
David Katz
Chief Technical Officer
AEE Solar
1155 Redway Drive
P.O. Box 339
Redway, CA  95560
Tel (707) 825-1200
Fax (707) 825-1202
dk...@aeesolar.com <mailto:da...@aeesolar.com>
www.aeesolar.com <http://www.aeesolar.com/>

DISCLAIMER:
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and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in any manner.



Dana wrote:
You got it!

It boggles my mind to watch the two OB FM60s and see the difference each day
and then to go back and see the data over time. It is a very good argument
for tracking. We have a Durango client that we installed 12 KW GIT tracked
and it is outperforming the expectations of our client too.

Dana Orzel

Great Solar Works, Inc
www.solarwork.com <http://www.solarwork.com>
E - d...@solarwork.com <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>
V - 970.626.5253
F - 970.626.4140
C - 970.209.4076

I will be the shift in how the world uses power! - Dana Orzel

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>  [
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan
Sindelar
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 8:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ev

Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Solar Panels for 98 Cents Per Watt

[Bill Hoffer]

Beware of any "B" cells.  In my experience making modules with "B" cells can
have a wide range of performance issues.  In theory "B" cells have the same
performance as "A" cells but with some cosmetic defects that do not affect
performance.  This is based on a flash test of the cell and not any long
term durability testing.  We used them to start up our production line and
learn how to use our equipment since they cost less than "A" cells.  Once we
switched to "A" cells we saw a more predictable tighter range of performance
closer to the theoretical predicted value based on the rating of the cells.
In some applications that might be OK to save a few dollars, but if you are
putting the money and time into a larger system you want to depend on and
expect to last 20+ years, I would be inclined to spend the extra money and
get a module using the higher quality cells.  "B" cells are what is left
over after they have sorted out the cream of the crop "A" cells.  The next
step down is "Shunt" cells which have performance and/or cosmetic issues and
should not be used in a module because of serious hot spotting issues.  I
suspect the line between "A" and "B" is pretty well defined and between "B"
and "shunt" cells is a little bit gray.  Many of all three categories are
not distinguishable by visual inspection.  Beware of the great
deal.there is a reason the larger manufacturers are selling off their
"B" cells!

Bill Hoffer PE
Sunergy Engineering
2504 Columbia Ave NW
East Wenatchee, WA 98802
(509)884-8638 sune...@charter.net

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]on Behalf Of Howie
Michaelson
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 6:02 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Solar Panels for 98 Cents Per Watt

Hi all,

The message below was received by a friend of mine who has done all his
own installation work, including being an early adopter of the FIT program
while living in Germany many years ago.  He is wondering if this is a good
deal for his off-grid system.

What thoughts are there about the points made in this pitch?  This is the
type of marketing that more and more of my clients are seeing.

Has anyone had any traffic with Sun Electronics that they care to relate?

And, I thought at least the Evergreen blemishes were about minorly
misaligned cells, not spots.

Thanks,
Howie
--
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer(tm)

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096


Begin forwarded message:

> From: Sun Electronics 
> Date: December 7, 2009 5:29:34 PM AST
>
> Before I tell you about these new panels,  I would like to say something
about our B grade and SUN  modules. No one else sells the brand SUN. We
have them made for us in the U.S., Germany and China using different
cells, depending on the size they might be Evergreen's, Sun Power's,
etc.B modules have UL and SUN modules do not. They both have a 25 year
warranty. SUN modules can be used for off grid independent homes, or any
low voltage application of 12, 24, or 48 volts,(boats, RV's, telecom,
etc.). Both our A and B panels have UL and can be used for any grid
connected application or any other  type of systems.
>
> B and SUN Panels: If you have ever actually seen one of our cosmetically
imperfect  crystalline modules like the Evergreen ES-A-205-fa3B for
$2.24/W or our SUN ES-A-205-fa3 for $1.74/W sitting next to an Evergreen
A panel, you will know that you can't tell the difference. You will
probably need someone to show you some tiny spots, if there are any. The
power output is identical. Every panel comes with a flash test sheet
from the manufacturer's certified solar simulator showing all panels
power output's equal or exceed  the factories output tolerances -0% to +
5%.   Over the last 10 years  we  have sold hundreds of containers of
them and have never had more than 10 panels come back over the last 10
years, and even those are kept for testing and repair. All A, B and SUN
modules have a 25 year warranty.
>
> The reason for the excellent quality of B and SUN panels is because
solar panels are all basically made the exact same way. Like sliding
glass doors that, last like Stanley hammers, they are very very simple
and strong. They are built to last 30 to 40 years, some say longer. If
you could compare all the different manufacturer's crystalline solar
panels in the world by lining  them up and having a 100 yard dash, they
would all end up finishing within a few inches of each other, but the
sales guys would be there promoting that theirs was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.
However, the difference in efficie