Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email
at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person
responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later
another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA
3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability.




On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client with
> three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four
> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to
> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone
> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement
> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer
> on either question.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Jason Szumlanski]

Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an informed
response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need a full cover
replacement. But no word on how to actually accomplish that (where to buy,
how much, if available, etc.)


On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo 
wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier
> this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out.
> Good luck with tech support.
>
> -Chris
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an email
>> at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One person
>> responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes later
>> another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA
>> 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client
>>> with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four
>>> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to
>>> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone
>>> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement
>>> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer
>>> on either question.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/68983148bb9c65fa762d735b7abf03ac5456fecf?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=671d7e31c120b6b5>
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6f6b0e9df28367ef54e461a609d68f21c62e5172?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=05c07b4ef11d941f>
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/7ed42c5f0db2cee3db1d242aeb1879cbfdd290c4?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=bd00b06641f11d1d>
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/09a6cc5efbee5f705898774ccd2bc14ace873e4e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a33f94cf33e92829>
>>
>> --
> Chris Sparadeo
>
>
> C_802-369-4458
> H_802-728-3059
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/eeb03d5ff8253fc6111ac205fbe66c2299a668c2?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=1b2523976dd33238>
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0c938e266b262890411e45f3d11baebfdd076140?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=5f70e51fbd978f43>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/4a0cda458e50ca6857ecd609ffbc691dd0c3f473?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=1476f20968e8e7fb>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/91e13cb48ce10bc1d92d770a8e80f6c56b342482?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=b2d4ebcaf444d828>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Bolt-on breaker panelboards

[Jason Szumlanski]

What are you using to combine multiple backfed breakers for battery output
(i.e. combining Tesla Powerwalls or other AC battery appliances)? Disregard
Tesla's new Gateway 2 and other manufacturer-specific gateway/combiners.

An NQ or similar panel makes sense for larger systems, but gets expensive
and physically large for 2-4 breaker configurations.

Jason Szumlanski
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Jason Szumlanski]

It looks like I'll be giving up on this case. SMA keeps bouncing me among
departments, pointing fingers at each other. Nobody seems to be able to
help. One service department rep actually told me that most people just
look for things on eBay. Seriously.

And I'm writing this as I sit in the driveway of another client with a SB
5.0 that has failed three times. Not only will I decline to offer their
products in the future, but I'm about to stop servicing them too. I can put
up with this lack or support.

Jason


On Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an informed
> response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need a full cover
> replacement. But no word on how to actually accomplish that (where to buy,
> how much, if available, etc.)
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo 
> wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier
>> this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out.
>> Good luck with tech support.
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an
>>> email at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One
>>> person responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes
>>> later another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA
>>> 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client
>>>> with three SB6000US and one SB3000US all manufactured in 2007 and all four
>>>> displays are shot. I'm not sure why it is so hard for SMA tech support to
>>>> give me a simple answer on this. I just had a mind-melting hour-long phone
>>>> call with them about this and the easiest currently-available replacement
>>>> for an out-of-warranty SB6000US. I failed to get a straight answer
>>>> on either question.
>>>>
>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>>
>>> ___
>>>
>> Chris Sparadeo
>>
>>
>> C_802-369-4458
>> H_802-728-3059
>> ___
>>
>>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA SB#000US LCD Displays

[Jason Szumlanski]

The displays are dead completely.

The SB 5.0 with issue is with a -US. The first one was replaced by another
contractor who apparently didn't read the huge sticker that says it had a
transport cover on it. So when I ordered the second warranty unit I asked
that a regular cover be sent (SMA dropped the ball on that last year). That
original contractor also used exposed THWN for the home run wiring on the
roof and couldn't quite figure out how a Soladeck pass-though box works
(scary stuff). I fixed that of course. But nothing else seems wrong. This
inverter failure was slightly different from the last two. Now one string
is showing 0V on the display but 277Voc on the meter. No ground faults
detected. The other string is 360V. Both are good numbers based on the
string configuration. AC voltage is good. No power production despite one
good DC string and good AC.

SMA service department finally relented this time (today) when I could not
get into the interface via WiFi nor Ethernet and they are sending another
unit out, this time supposedly with the correct non-transport cover. We
will see. I just can't spend 4-6 hours of travel, hold and diagnostic time
on these inverter issues. It's not worth it, particularly when I didn't
sell the unit in the first place. SMA (and other string inverter
manufacturers) are out of willing and capable service personnel in my area.
I'm usually the last resort that people call when they are exasperated.





On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 4:20 PM frenergy  wrote:

> Jason,
>
> Is it the actual display behind the window of the cover or is
> it the window in the cover?  It might be worth a try to contact a place
> that repairs SMA (and other inverters) like the Solar Cowboys (530)
> 273-4895.  If its just the window, we've replaced them.
>
> And your reference to the SB 5.0 that has failed 3
> timeswas it a "U", "US", -40,-41?  Refurbished?  Can't say why but I've
> had pretty good luck with calling their service line, I've always entered
> my acct # first.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/86e40499e98806ac1123ea5dd68eb33e1694ea9f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.frenergy.net&userId=1613865&signature=5433bfb0b4e8d026>
>
> On 8/18/2020 7:59 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> It looks like I'll be giving up on this case. SMA keeps bouncing me among
> departments, pointing fingers at each other. Nobody seems to be able to
> help. One service department rep actually told me that most people just
> look for things on eBay. Seriously.
>
> And I'm writing this as I sit in the driveway of another client with a SB
> 5.0 that has failed three times. Not only will I decline to offer their
> products in the future, but I'm about to stop servicing them too. I can put
> up with this lack or support.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2020, 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, it's like pulling teeth to get a response, much less an informed
>> response. They told me to maintain NEMA 3R rating I need a full cover
>> replacement. But no word on how to actually accomplish that (where to buy,
>> how much, if available, etc.)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 8:13 PM Chris Sparadeo 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jason,
>>>
>>> Yes the LCD displays can be swapped out. I had an issue with one earlier
>>> this year on a SB6000US and SMA sent a replacement. Very easy to swap out.
>>> Good luck with tech support.
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 7:20 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm zeroing in on an answer and will share when I get it. I sent an
>>>> email at the recommendation of the first-line customer service rep. One
>>>> person responded saying to call customer service (haha). A few minutes
>>>> later another one said the cover needs to be replaced to maintain the NEMA
>>>> 3R rating and gave me another email to get information on availability.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 10, 2020 at 5:05 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know if the LCD displays can be replaced? I have a client
>>>>> with three SB6000US and one SB3

[RE-wrenches] Solarworld Sunmodule Plus

[Jason Szumlanski]

If anyone has a module around with black frame, white backsheet, I have a
client looking for one to replace a shattered module. Optimizer system.
Watt rating not critical.

Please contact me off list.


<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/19ade685c435f881270723cf354478e8b7c17695?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floridasolardesigngroup.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=5d1418805ce7eba4>
*Jason Szumlanski*
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] IAEI Online Articles

[Jason Szumlanski]

I thought it was just me. It has been like that for a few weeks.




On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 4:50 PM Corey Shalanski  wrote:

> Does anyone know what happened to the online IAEI magazine article
> website: https://iaeimagazine.org/
> 
>
> It no longer seems to be accessible?
>
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Jah Light Solar
> Portland, Jamaica
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Solarworld Sunmodule Plus

[Jason Szumlanski]

Since I'm not finding anything, I'd like to open this up to any 60-cell
module with a 33mm frame depth, preferable BoW.


On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 11:10 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> If anyone has a module around with black frame, white backsheet, I have a
> client looking for one to replace a shattered module. Optimizer system.
> Watt rating not critical.
>
> Please contact me off list.
>
>
>
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/61c6f25eed117f96d7a96ef440244439a5ec3af6?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floridasolardesigngroup.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=47e66c677ad5e827>
> *Jason Szumlanski*
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] SolarEdge Site Monitoring Administration Rights Transfer Form

[Jason Szumlanski]

If anyone has a copy of this form, can you please send it to me off list?

I don't understand why SolarEdge hides access to this document and makes it
so hard to take over another installer's site. I'm cleaning up a lot of
messes recently and it's really hard to support these service clients.


<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/97c0d9a384820502a8a112066e50d85c8f998629?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floridasolardesigngroup.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=2cb5db6680c33956>
*Jason Szumlanski*
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Stackable Battery-Based systems complying to IEEE 1547-2018 standard

[Jason Szumlanski]

What about using an AC Coupled solution? The IEEE 1547 standard should only
be applied to the grid-tied inverter in that case since the hybrid inverter
is isolated when the grid is down and does not contribute to the grid sell
when the grid is up if there is no solar resource on the DC side (unless
configured to do so). That way you could use Enphase which I believe is a
1547-2018 approved inverter. I wonder if that would meet their requirements.

I'm not up to speed on these "progressive" utility companies, but I would
like to stay tuned in, so please keep us updated on the result.

Jason Szumlanski



On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:00 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Yes, seems a little heavy handed to require this so quickly out of the
> gates.  This is Rocky Mountain Power specifically Eastern Utah, owned or
> operated by Pacific Corp.  This may be a way to get the customer to pay for
> a transformer upgrade.  They offered an alternative to this compliance
> by utilizing an effective grounding transformer with associated relay
> control system.  I am gathering info on these requirements because its not
> clear if this is a utility side transformer or if that would be customer
> sided.
>
> They seem to be very concerned about these distributed resources
> contributing to transient overvoltage events.
>
> I will say that this area has a very high proportion of solar, its on most
> homes in this community, so I'm not sure how wide-spread this requirement
> is.
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 7:13 PM Harry Mahon 
> wrote:
>
>> Mac – what utility is this?
>>
>>
>>
>> My understanding is that IEEE 1547.1-2020 contains the details of the
>> testing protocol so that devices CAN be listed to 1547-2018.  It got
>> published in late May 2020.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are ANY inverters listed yet?  My understanding is testing is a months
>> long process and that would if the testing facilities have finalized the
>> process they will use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a way to force the transformer choice on you…
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> SMA America
>> *Michael Mahon*
>> Technical Trainer, Solar Academy
>> 6020 West Oaks Boulevard, Suite 300
>>
>> Rocklin, CA 95765
>>
>> U.S.A.
>> Mobile:   +1 916 918 9412
>> * www.SMA-America.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/9b578ad3dac3edcc18cd1ba277137131cda9eb4b?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sma-america.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=b59f374b419e386a>*
>>
>>
>>
>> Solar Academy: https://solaracademy.sma.de/en.html
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/ec5341a31168a5c00aaa9574ea0280c9f12d64f9?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsolaracademy.sma.de%2Fen.html&userId=1613865&signature=2fa62a97dbc76463>
>>
>>
>>
>> SMA America Solar Academy webinars:
>> https://solaracademy.sma.de/en/courses.html
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/ba7bc3d0641d00e7819e6d1c1f9a25c166186cad?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsolaracademy.sma.de%2Fen%2Fcourses.html&userId=1613865&signature=15bc979a5aa39f72>
>>
>> Choose "United States"
>>
>> [image: A picture containing drawing, food Description automatically
>> generated]
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/fa88b779465f6a819249b594c399dfe8ea4c0273?url=https%3A%2F%2Feur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.sma-america.com%252FShadeFix%26data%3D02%257C01%257CMichael.Mahon%2540sma-america.com%257Ceb737bd7586646b4d14b08d811405661%257Ca059b96c28294d1188374cc1ff84735d%257C0%257C0%257C637278315315432372%26sdata%3DuyZ5K7ayyl6y%252Fa90qQ0%252F4r8WSV0PYLK1CYMJQxPVeCQ%253D%26reserved%3D0&userId=1613865&signature=2d260720e8bc9311>
>>
>>
>>
>> [image: Linkedin Logo]
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3f4cc29a0eee4c3ed6ba57d37eae939c6754d0bd?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fcompany%2F364675&userId=1613865&signature=fab9bde26967b017>
>>
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/70d6a8ec5a968d055485b461ca39a0de20839b95?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fplaylist%3Flist%3DPL840A5336CAC32332&userId=1613865&signature=ecf8e63b102e691e>
>>  [image:
>> SMAAFORUM_ICON]
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/7d37f0760ab73745220e1e1be51ca323483417a5?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsmaadvance.com%2Fsignup%2F&userId=1613865&signature=bf587746c4b62a51>
>>  Follow, Like, Share
>>
>>
>>
>> This email and any attachments thereto may contain SMA America, LLC
>> confidential, privileged and private material for the sole use of the
>> intended recipient. Any review, copying, or distribution of this email (or
>> any attachments thereto)

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng

[Jason Szumlanski]

So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was wrong.

The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a
spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another
branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the
issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why.

So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In
this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The
same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't
find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are
no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is
happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the
individual branch circuit breakers.

This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because
fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one
branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit
disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable
suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options.

Jason Szumlanski











On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one
> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere,
>> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2?  That could
>> explain two different breakers tripping.
>>
>> Good luck
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after
>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even
>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long
>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small
>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence
>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to
>>> rain events.
>>>
>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we could
>>> use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the intermittent
>>> nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between faults is very
>>> frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is definitely a "con" to
>>> consider when comparing string vs. microinverters that I had not strongly
>>> considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to the bottom of this in
>>> order to learn what to look for in the future and how to approach diagnoses
>>> of Enphase branch circuit faults.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was just at a site last week where the Enphase branch circuit
>>>> breaker, outside utility disconnect breaker, and feed breaker in the main
>>>> panel all tripped simultaneously, and it happened about 1 hour before I
>>>> showed up onsite.  The customer said it had happened 1 other time last fall
>>>> but that time it was just the 1 branch circuit in the Enphase combiner
>>>> panel.  Interestingly the customer mentioned that he had just washed off
>>>> the panels, also about 1 hour before I got there.  I went on the roof and
>>>> found that the installing contractor had not put on the Enphase termination
>>>> caps.  1 string was wire-nutted with regular wire nuts and sitting on the
>>>> roof, and the roof was damp right there. This was a fairly flat roof.  The
>>>> other micro trunk cable was just cut with no protection at all, tied to the
>>>> rail…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Amos Post
>>>>Integrity Energy
>>>>   W 802.763.7023
>>>>C 802.291.2188
>>>> ienergyVT.com
>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f1ae9e0c71265067b985055083179eea0fff7f47?notrack=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ienergyvt.com&userId=1613865&signature=7ffa18528c69326a>
>>>> Facebook
>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/dd75f6ff58a0e98e9008c1388c3a91e7995d1093?notrack=1&url=https%3A%2

Re: [RE-wrenches] Modifying a plumbing vent

[Jason Szumlanski]

I have never used one, but there is this:

https://solarroofjack.com/




On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 6:17 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> Over all these years I have always been able to work around plumbing
> vents.  Now I find one that is just in the way.  My foreman suggests we 90
> it out of the way, and makes the point that there are vent 90s in the walls
> all the time.  Is there any concern about this practice?
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> William
>
>
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
> 
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng

[Jason Szumlanski]

The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No
weather-related correlation.

I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but
previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature.




On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay  wrote:

> Hi Jason
>
> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool.
>
> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air
> temp is causing it to fail.
> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed and
> that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool during
> peak heat would be  a good test.
>
> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s
> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over
> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker
> ( CBI  vs CH etc) would have worked?
>
> Is that breaker box ever in the sun?  Is there any Correlation between
>  high ambient temperatures and tripping?
>
> It sure would keep me up at night too
>
> Jay
>
>
> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was
> wrong.
>
> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had a
> spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another
> branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the
> issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why.
>
> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now. In
> this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect. The
> same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We can't
> find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There are
> no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is
> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the
> individual branch circuit breakers.
>
> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because
> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one
> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit
> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable
> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one
>> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason,
>>>
>>> Are you certain that the branch circuits aren't crisscrossed somewhere,
>>> meaning that an L1 branch 1, isn't connected to an L2 branch 2?  That could
>>> explain two different breakers tripping.
>>>
>>> Good luck
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 1:07 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Undoubtedly, the termination caps are the second thing we check after
>>>> the rooftop junction box(es). These are prone to installation errors, even
>>>> when the right parts are used. And given the cost, I've thought very long
>>>> and hard about abandoning them altogether and terminating strings in small
>>>> j-boxes with watertight fittings. But in this case, there was no evidence
>>>> of improper installation (we replaced them) and it was not correlated to
>>>> rain events.
>>>>
>>>> We are well equipped with bare Q-cable and field wireables that we
>>>> could use for troubleshooting to bypass certain sections, but the
>>>> intermittent nature of the problem and unpredictable timeframe between
>>>> faults is very frustrating. While this is a rare occurrence, it is
>>>> definitely a "con" to consider when comparing string vs. microinverters
>>>> that I had not strongly considered in the past. I'm intent on getting to
>>>> the bottom of this in order to learn what to look for in the future and how
>>>> to approach diagnoses of Enphase branch circuit faults.
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2020 at 2:31 PM Amos Post 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Re-mounting a legacy Grid-tied system, after re-roofing

[Jason Szumlanski]

It depends on the jurisdiction here in Southwest Florida, but virtually all
of them expect the system to meet current codes for the most part for
things you touch. Since the mounts/attachments are removed, it's definitely
a new structural inspection and most jurisdictions at least want to look at
grounding/bonding.

The most we can get away with here usually is avoiding an electrical plan
review, and sometimes an electrical inspection altogether. They do mostly
allow grandfathered inverter equipment, even if RSD is not provided. One of
by bigger headaches has been MC3 connectors on modules.

I don't like touching these systems without bringing them up to code with a
whole new engineered set of permit drawings. I have a lot of
removal/reinstall experience here (thanks, Hurricane Irma). It's more
trouble than it's worth to try to use old tech. The insurance company
should be willing to update the system to new codes if the insured is
covered for that, and that's what we saw on a pretty consistent basis. I
even replaced panels on the insurer's dime on some Sharp trapezoidal arrays
because I couldn't make the existing mounting systems work to get them back
on the roof, and they have a proprietary and discontinued rail system. Some
clients were happy to upgrade to microinverters at the same time, also.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group




On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 4:13 PM August Goers  wrote:

> Hi Howie,
>
> There is definitely some grey area involved in your situation - and, you
> are not alone in facing this type of situation. As systems age, we're
> finding removal and replacements becoming very common. Many companies don't
> want to do this type of work because it almost always opens up a can of
> worms. On the conservative side, it's always safest to get a permit. We've
> been getting removal and replacement maintenance permits in the SF Bay Area
> with fairly good results. We let the AHJ know that this is simply a removal
> and replacement for re-roofing purposes, so we're building the system again
> to the same code it was built to. Fire walkways are a big deal in our neck
> of the woods, and older systems don't tend to meet current standards. Then,
> there is rapid shutdown, smart inverters, arc fault detection, etc that
> make it nearly impossible to rebuild the system with the old equipment
> while meeting current codes and interconnection requirements. Your old
> SunPower positively grounded modules will only work with old isolated
> transformer based inverters that don't meet current code.
>
> But to answer your question, yes, I think it is perfectly fine to rebuild
> the system the way it originally was with the same inverter and your AHJ
> should too as long as they understand it is for maintenance. We're not
> taking on rebuilding systems that were installed by others currently
> because we already have too much work and as I mentioned above, it always
> ends up being complicated and taking more time than just building a new
> system from scratch. As soon as the system becomes modified because there
> is now a skylight on the roof, they want to add some modules, etc, then
> really you're building a new system with old modules and it should meet
> current code.
>
> August
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2020 at 12:54 PM Howie Michaelson <
> howie.michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>> I think I know the answer to this, but wasn't 100% sure:
>>
>> I have a potential client who had roof mounted grid-tied panels (Sun
>> Power 205s, and Sun Power Inverter) and a Sunny Island for backup
>> (batteries are currently flat, so don't know if either they are recoverable
>> or if the SI is working).
>>
>> Before the current owner moved in a few months ago, the panels and
>> racking were removed (maybe a year ago), seemingly for a reroofing.  No
>> pictures appear to exist of how or where they were mounted and I believe
>> the racking has disappeared (I have not been to this location, just have
>> info from the current owner and a report commissioned by the owner from a
>> somewhat knowledgeable energy consultant). The owner wants the panels
>> remounted and the SI restored to operation.
>>
>> My question is can I reuse the existing equipment (no RSD) as this
>> appears to be a maintenance procedure, or do I need to bring the system up
>> to current code?  No permits will need to be pulled and there are
>> essentially nor AHJs involved (this is a rural site), so any adherence to
>> code would be for covering my a-- and making sure things were safe.  So can
>> I, by code, remount this system (with new racking) somewhere on the same
>> roof, without chan

Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

[Jason Szumlanski]

Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of
them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid
input.

The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple.

Jason Szumlanski




On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels 
wrote:

> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with a
> TON of surge capabilities..
>
> Joe Nelson
>
> Project Manager C-46/C-10
> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation
>
> CSL# 868816
> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a79a94610bdfe9a8c1b0480229481ccc0945e36a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.SustainableEnergyGroup.com&userId=1613865&signature=628892195b38f17d>
> 530-273-4422 (Office)
>
> 530-217-8385 (Cell)
>
> 
>
>    
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of pgir...@mindspring.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>
>
> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program,
> does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid
> and terrific customer support.
>
>
>
> Peter Giroux
>
> ASAE
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>
>
>
> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters.
>
>
>
> *Bryan *
>
> *PV-Cables*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> ] *On Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>
>
>
> I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with
> their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are.
>
>
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield 
> wrote:
>
> Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody, and
> I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following
> designs...
>
>
>
> The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm
> sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial
> proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size
> range...
>
>
>
>1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW
>system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on
>one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but that's
>not an issue, this is off-grid.
>2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for up
>to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this system?
>
>
>
>
>
> Are there any other options that anyone would suggest? Schneider's website
> says they can only do up to 61 kW, and Victron can only do up to 60 kW.
>
>
>
>
>
> I know that the Outback system would yield a 240/120 Split-Phase system
> and that the SMA would yield a 208/120 3Ø system, but this doesn't really
> matter either way for this job.
>
>
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Kienan
>
>
>
>
>
> *Maxfield Solar*
>
> *maxfieldso...@hotmail.com* 
>
> *(801) 631-5584 (Cell)*
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/37324a803ab135ce4f6abd4943a96852954122c7?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=422bba15ca9ac17c>
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/2190cd706faec5c590faf0036321741ce879e7c1?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=6ef73e07203fddf4>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/87baaab45bd57bc31753a44cdc40e0e4a60915e2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=9c9c3d731088>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> &

Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

[Jason Szumlanski]

There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT
charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit
protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V
input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very
interested in this approach.

On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of
circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find
downsides other than their infancy in the industry.

And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has
been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments.

Jason Szumlanski



On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye  wrote:

> The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the
> praises of either SMA or Outback.
>
> I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an
> issue addressed by SMA.
>
> Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in
> exchange for good technical support.
> On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of
> them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid
> input.
>
> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels 
> wrote:
>
>> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with
>> a TON of surge capabilities..
>>
>> Joe Nelson
>>
>> Project Manager C-46/C-10
>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation
>>
>> CSL# 868816
>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/8f0e320b52948f22a9ae9682bd3b5e9dc8d6c68f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.SustainableEnergyGroup.com&userId=1613865&signature=e7d246f94af9a065>
>> 530-273-4422 (Office)
>>
>> 530-217-8385 (Cell)
>>
>> 
>>
>>    
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  on
>> behalf of pgir...@mindspring.com 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM
>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>>
>>
>> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program,
>> does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid
>> and terrific customer support.
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Giroux
>>
>> ASAE
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM
>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Bryan *
>>
>> *PV-Cables*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> ] *On Behalf Of *Chris
>> Schaefer
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 10:40 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd suggest giving the crew at Sol-Ark a quick call @ 972-575-8875 with
>> their 12kw unit. Not sure what their max number of inverters are.
>>
>>
>>
>> Christopher
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 1:14 PM Kienan Maxfield 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hey all, I'm designing a microgrid sized off-grid system for somebody,
>> and I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any issues with the following
>> designs...
>>
>>
>>
>> The client says he needs 70 kW. His load data looks pretty solid, so I'm
>> sticking to using that number as a minimum, at least during the initial
>> proposal stage. I only know of two possible equipment options for this size
>> range...
>>
>>
>>
>>1. I think I can use up to 10 Outback Radians, for up to an 80 kW
>>system. Are there any bugs or problems with using this many inverters on
>>one hub? I know I've read about issues with selling to the grid, but 
>> that's
>>not an issue, this is off-grid.
>>2. I know that the SMA cluster box with sunny islands can allow for
>>up to a 72 kW system. Do you know of any bugs or problems with this 
>> system?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Are there any o

Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?

[Jason Szumlanski]

Related question, Jeff... With the Sol-Ark, I an off-grid situation can you
set it up to always use inveters to power loads. In other words, when the
generator kicks in, only use the generator to charge batteries and do not
bypass inveters to power loads directly from the generator.

This is a request I get occasionally. People don't want to rely on the
"dirty" generator power with sensitive electronics.

Jason


On Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 1:19 PM Jeff Clearwater  wrote:

> I'm loving my first install of Sol Arks - One downside of Sol-Ark (and I
> can't find many!) is that the GEN terminal can only handle 1 of the
> following 3:  Generator, AC Coupling, or Smart Load.  So if you want both a
> generator and AC coupling you have to either do a separate transfer switch
> for the GEN and not run it through the inverters - or you have to go with
> their internal DC MPPTif you do want the GEN to charge the batteries
> (unless you are off-grid totally and have no Grid in which case you might
> be able to run the Generator into Grid?  not sure about that - don't quote
> me!).
>
> Anyone else with any downsides?
>
> Best,
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski wrote on 9/10/20 4:44 AM:
>
> There is a huge distinction in a hybrid inverter that integrates MPPT
> charge control. Eliminating all of the extraneous hardware and circuit
> protection associated with charge controllers is very appealing. The 500V
> input limit is also a game-changer in terms of wire size. I'm very
> interested in this approach.
>
> On the flip size, an AC Coupled approach is also appealing in a lot of
> circumstances. Since Sol-Ark supports that, too, it's hard to find
> downsides other than their infancy in the industry.
>
> And for what it's worth, my experience with SMA tech support recently has
> been abysmal. Long hold times and getting bounced around departments.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:50 PM Mark Frye  wrote:
>
>> The most important thing here is that no one is standing up to sing the
>> praises of either SMA or Outback.
>>
>> I myself have sent about 2 hours on hold over 2 days trying to get an
>> issue addressed by SMA.
>>
>> Re: Sol-Arc I would pay a lot extra or take some not so good aspect in
>> exchange for good technical support.
>> On 9/9/2020 1:12 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>>
>> Any tips on combining AC output from these units when stacking several of
>> them? What bus/OCPD system are you using? Same question for generator/grid
>> input.
>>
>> The solar MPPT inputs appear to be dead simple.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 10:45 PM MiJo Nels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> we've found SolArk to be SOLID!! .. And yes 8 inv yield about 96kW, with
>>> a TON of surge capabilities..
>>>
>>> Joe Nelson
>>>
>>> Project Manager C-46/C-10
>>> Sustainable Energy Group Inc., A California Corporation
>>>
>>> CSL# 868816
>>> www.SustainableEnergyGroup.com
>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/8f0e320b52948f22a9ae9682bd3b5e9dc8d6c68f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.SustainableEnergyGroup.com&userId=1613865&signature=e7d246f94af9a065>
>>> 530-273-4422 (Office)
>>>
>>> 530-217-8385 (Cell)
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *From:* RE-wrenches  on
>>> behalf of pgir...@mindspring.com 
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:24:03 PM
>>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>>>
>>>
>>> I also suggest the Sol-Ark 12’s. Extremely efficient, simple to program,
>>> does a wonderful job in either ac coupling, stand alone or pure off grid
>>> and terrific customer support.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter Giroux
>>>
>>> ASAE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>>> Behalf Of *Bryan Norkunas
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 8, 2020 1:50 PM
>>> *To:* 'RE-wrenches' 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Microgrid... Outback or SMA or other?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sol-Arks would be possible, you can link 8 inverters.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Bryan *
>>>
>>> *PV-Cables*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>&g

Re: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance?

[Jason Szumlanski]

We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now. They
didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an orange
label? Crazy.

No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator
manufacturer.





On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer 
wrote:

> Jeremy,
> Pika was bought out by Generac and rebranded as their PWR cell. Most of
> the old crew from Pika are now working for Generac. It's beyond me that
> Generac bought them and yet they still don't have a generator input. That's
> why I could never sign on to the Pika product line. Good luck.
>
> Christopher
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:00 AM Jeremy Rodriguez 
> wrote:
>
>> If anyone has any info on how to get a hold of The former PIKA ENERGY
>> support group, please contact me off list.
>> Or if anyone knows where one could get one of their inverters
>> rebuilt/repaired let me know.
>>
>> Jeremy Rodriguez
>> Solar Installation / Design Expert
>> All Solar, Inc.
>> 1463 M St
>> Penrose Colorado 81240
>>
>> Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
>
> 
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424**www.solarandwindfx.com
> 
> ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com *
>
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
> willing to work and give to those who would not."
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes

[Jason Szumlanski]

Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently discovered
there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare ground in a
single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The rubber gland
is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable since it is
not punched all the way through.

Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who
sells Heyco I would imagine.

[image: image.png]


Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Pika Support by chance?

[Jason Szumlanski]

54kWh doesn't go far for air conditioning in September in Southwest
Florida. Trust me. Most homes have $200+ electric bills at $0.10/kWh this
time of year, sometimes substantially more.

Generator backup, even with 4 Powerwalls, is necessary for mission-critical
grid-tied backup situations. Sadly, you can't charge Powerwalls with a
generator. You just bypass battery storage and run loads straight off the
generator, which means the generator needs to be sized for the whole home.
It would be nice to have a generator input for supplemental charging at
least with a small portable unit.

There is no perfect solution for this application. At least no
cost-effective solution.


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 6:06 PM August Goers  wrote:

> Hi Bill -
>
> I completely agree with your statement about all off-grid applications.
> Most if not all need generators. And, I do think there are some grid tied
> applications where generators make sense too, especially for folks who live
> way out in the woods as you mention. I was speaking about the mass market
> in CA in cities or towns where the grid is typically fairly reliable. If
> you install four Powerwalls, for example, you have up to 54 kWh of storage
> available. There are applications where generators make sense, and all
> these fires and smoke and heat waves prove the point. I think AC is
> critical for some parts of the country, and energy storage + PV alone just
> won't cut it for those critical applications.
>
> But, yes, good point.
>
> August
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 2:33 PM frenergy  wrote:
>
>> August,
>>
>> Quite frankly and with due respect about the comment about
>> more PV and battery to forego the need for a generator, I disagree. Those
>> folks living off-grid in the sticks (um,er, myself included), it would be a
>> very bad thing not to have Gen input.  The current situation here in Plumas
>> county  (and many other counties right now) is another perfect example.  It
>> is so smokey that my daily KWhrs has been cut in half and of course every
>> other off-grid home is having the same issue. This has been going on for
>> almost a month with only occasional breaks.  There are also CC failures,
>> FET board craps out, other excrement occurs.
>>
>> We all know there are many critical needs for power
>> especially to run a pump for fire protection, frig for food, communication
>> to know what the hell may coming your way during some event (fire, flood,
>> bad weather) medical needs, etc.  In the winter there are at least a few
>> times when there is little or no sun for 1 maybe 2 weeks...that gets to be
>> a spendy array and battery.  Certainly, the idea of going that route works
>> for some scenarios but not off-grid.  Generators are still a much needed
>> necessary evil.  Maybe its a big deal to incorporate that feature in an
>> inverter??  Sounds like bean counting.
>>
>> My $.02 worth
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> Bill Battagin, Owner
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> 530.284.7849
>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net 
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e37b8134584cfc480c3ad6deab2b0b296c8da98a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.frenergy.net&userId=1613865&signature=057ab7bbd77fff54>
>>
>> On 9/11/2020 1:01 PM, August Goers wrote:
>>
>> In CA the market for ESS is primarily grid tied support features driven
>> by SGIP + backup (public safety power shutoffs, folks who live in less
>> stable grid areas, folks worried about natural disasters) so the ESS is
>> designed to replace generators. This might be a little trickier for areas
>> that need air conditioning during a grid outage (or for all electric
>> homes), but one tactic is just to go bigger with the ESS and PV system. I
>> guess what I'm saying is that the value proposition might already be
>> getting better just to skip the generator and go bigger with the storage.
>> Even Generac might be going that route.
>>
>> August
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 11:52 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We are seeing tons of companies in Florida offering Generac/Pika now.
>>> They didn't do it when it was Pika, so why would they now that it has an
>>> orange label? Crazy.
>>>
>>> No generator input makes zero sense and even less sense for a generator
>>> manufacturer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 12:58 PM Chris Schaefer <
>>> ch...@solarandwindfx.com> wrote:
>>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes

[Jason Szumlanski]

Bryan,

I'm happy to see you have these. But the Heyco catalog doesn't show a -SM
for the 1/2" part. They only show a 1/2" for a single tray cable with no
bare, the M3231GCZ that is on your website. Are you saying there is another
one not listed in the catalog that does have a bare and is skinned over?

https://heyco-products.com/media/pdf/ec/35/10/LTC-Enphase-Q-and-Helios-UVX-ClipecNgmD5A3WCBf.pdf
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b71bcf3e5dde833c6645c4fbfea037ae4c2377f3?url=https%3A%2F%2Fheyco-products.com%2Fmedia%2Fpdf%2Fec%2F35%2F10%2FLTC-Enphase-Q-and-Helios-UVX-ClipecNgmD5A3WCBf.pdf&userId=1613865&signature=c28ed27b0b9bdc53>

If you bring in the M3234GDA-SM, I'm a buyer. I prefer this one to reduce
stock parts since it's good for one or two cable entries and one or zero
bare wires.

I had been using the Arlington NMUF50 for single Q Cable entry and a
similar gland for bare wire. This one part from Heyco simplifies everything.

Jason



On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 3:48 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:

> M3231GCZ-SM is the part number for the ½” version,
>
> Though the ½” version only accepting a single 12/2 tray cable with bare
> ground.
>
>
>
> We see a bigger demand for the ½ vs the ¾”
>
>
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> br...@pv-cables.com
>
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]
>
> *PV-Cables Inc. *
>
> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D*
>
> *Ferndale CA 95536*
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e88c4f3c835178e282afa622a525035e46765c0c?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pv-cables.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=a0f31e21bc3909a0>
>
>
>
>  [image: Description: Description: cid:image002.jpg@01CD22E8.974B6470] Please
> print only if necessary.
>
>
>
> NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the
> intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged
> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is
> prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
> sender by replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original
> message.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
> *Sent:* Friday, September 11, 2020 12:16 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Getting Enphase IQ Cable into J Boxes
>
>
>
> Just a quick tip for those of you installing Enphase. I recently
> discovered there is a Heyco connector for TWO Enphase IQ cables and a bare
> ground in a single 3/4" knockout. This has saved us a bunch of time. The
> rubber gland is prepunched, but you can also use it for a single IQ cable
> since it is not punched all the way through.
>
>
>
> Part number is M3234GDA-SM, available through Mouser, Rexel, anyone who
> sells Heyco I would imagine.
>
>
>
> [image: image.png]
>
>
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/cbad114fcf483dde75322459fa8917c5e8ae00f2?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=271b998253801071>
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a4e8530cde2e0c09f37f2668c23fdc5c8ebc60c9?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=17b3f1942c1a536a>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/809e874fab7981ee21ac3c48de52df2efdd1c036?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=2a5530100733b889>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/02b6ca5baeddea472ba7d9b76ddbae2e0568f46c?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=bf3c8508b305c220>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work

[Jason Szumlanski]

There were multiple failed rough inspections, but I think there were so
many violations that the inspector didn't even make it up into the attic.
This happens to be right at the top of the ladder access to the attic!
You can't miss it! Ultimately this never passed final inspections (except
structural because the contractor perjured himself on an inspection
affidavit). The whole system is going to have to be removed, roof repaired,
and system reinstalled properly.

Subsequent to his shoddy work, another electrical contractor came in and
installed a whole home generator with transfer switch, unwittingly moving
the PV AC fusible disconnect from the line side of the existing to the load
side of the new service disconnect. No matter... the fusible disconnect was
wired wrong and was missing a grounding bushing. No surprise there. It all
needs redoing.

I just remembered - the plans showed tile hooks also, so they didn't even
try to follow the permitted plans. I don't like hooks in SW Florida anyway
due to wind, so at least they chose a better attachment in the Universal
Tile Mount, but there was no attempt to install it correctly.

Jason



On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:27 PM Will White  wrote:

> Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually one
> to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad.
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor
>> for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across
>> one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a
>> screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really
>> want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about
>> it, but the process is rather difficult.
>>
>> P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar Contractor.
>> In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny" pictures
>> attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/bb835033c55c140f379dd488bc9ee7f3288d0e80?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a40d74b82774a430>
>>
>>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] License Complaints for Bad Work

[Jason Szumlanski]

I got some advice from the local code violation department chief. He said
to have the homeowner file a complaint locally. They will investigate and
help the homeowner file a complaint with state licensing. They can revoke
his local competency card, but since he is state-licensed, the AHJ can't do
much unless the building official turns him in for willful violations.




On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 5:20 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> I would sleep on any decision you make on this. You might just get the
> Barney Fife of code inspection. Things can always get worse for everyone.
> Good Luck!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b0deae68c1e57512a0ca29fdd7c7a8bf86c58170?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.sti.net%2Foffgridsolar%2F&userId=1613865&signature=38cc32f61209031f>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 13:06:05 -0700, Solar Energy Solutions <
> solarenergysoluti...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> I would suggest a led  tile roof pipe Jack to go over those stand offs To
> be installed by the original roofer.
>
> *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*
> President
>
>
> *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.The BRIGHT CHOICE*
>
> *Since 1987,** helping you and your *
> *Portland neighbors move** towards an environmentally sustainable future.*
>
>
> *503-238-4502 <503-238-4502>www.SolarEnergyOregon.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/15368005c9945bd83a08c7ff51e14adb4884e0e4?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarenergyoregon.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=6dc617e0328264e8>*
>
> On Sep 28, 2020, at 10:47 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> There were multiple failed rough inspections, but I think there were so
> many violations that the inspector didn't even make it up into the attic.
> This happens to be right at the top of the ladder access to the attic!
> You can't miss it! Ultimately this never passed final inspections (except
> structural because the contractor perjured himself on an inspection
> affidavit). The whole system is going to have to be removed, roof repaired,
> and system reinstalled properly.
>
> Subsequent to his shoddy work, another electrical contractor came in and
> installed a whole home generator with transfer switch, unwittingly moving
> the PV AC fusible disconnect from the line side of the existing to the load
> side of the new service disconnect. No matter... the fusible disconnect was
> wired wrong and was missing a grounding bushing. No surprise there. It all
> needs redoing.
>
> I just remembered - the plans showed tile hooks also, so they didn't even
> try to follow the permitted plans. I don't like hooks in SW Florida anyway
> due to wind, so at least they chose a better attachment in the Universal
> Tile Mount, but there was no attempt to install it correctly.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 1:27 PM Will White  wrote:
>
>> Do you not have electrical inspectors out there? I'm also not usually one
>> to rat on another contractor but this is burn the house down bad.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 12:14 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Does anyone have any thoughts on turning in a fellow licensed contractor
>>> for egregious violations of code and workmanship practices? I ran across
>>> one this weekend that should definitely not own a ladder or even a
>>> screwdriver. I'm compelled to turn him into the state, but I don't really
>>> want to be "that guy." I'm encouraging the homeowner to do something about
>>> it, but the process is rather difficult.
>>>
>>> P.S. This happens to be an Electrical Contractor, not a Solar
>>> Contractor. In Florida, both specialties can install PV. "Funny/not funny"
>>> pictures attached, and there are MANY other scary deficiencies.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f62081cd20350e279dc2556d661fa527d301ef42?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=03dbd8aa93f9ba97>
>>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-

[RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures

[Jason Szumlanski]

Can anyone point to any code issues with mounting an Envoy inside of a
panelboard? For example, when installing a 3-phase commercial system with a
large 400A AC combiner panelboard, there is often PLENTY of room to mount
an Envoy inside on a DIN rail. Aside from the manufacturer's instructions
not specifically listing this option, I can't see any reason that it would
be prohibited. The only downside I can see would be slightly more difficult
access to service buttons.

I would argue that it is better. The DIN rail would be bonded to the
enclosure. The DIN rail that Enphase ships with the Envoy is too short to
accept a DIN mounted grounding terminal. When mounting in a non-metallic
enclosure I run an EGC to a grounding terminal on a longer DIN rail that I
install, not the included one. I'm wondering how people handle the lack of
a ground terminal on the Envoy and whether they even run an EGC along with
the circuit conductors when mounting an Envoy in a non-metallic enclosure.
I have not been able to get a good answer from Enphase on how they expect
this to be accomplished. I suppose if the Envoy does not need an equipment
ground because it is insulated, and the DIN rail is not exposed once the
Envoy is mounted. Maybe it is their opinion that no EGC is required, but I
see the DIN rail as needing an EGC.

Anyway, that's a lengthy side note. I'm mainly wondering if the Envoy can
be mounted in a panelboard.



Jason Szumlanski
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures

[Jason Szumlanski]

Answers to your questions/comments:

1. The same voltage in the panelboard would also apply to the junction box
in which it would be located (as suggested by Enphase). You have to bring a
240V 3-wire circuit to the Envoy in its enclosure. I don't see the
difference.
2. Enphase's IQ combiner is only good for 52 IQ7+ micros. These systems are
much larger.
3.Yes. Tested. Successful.
4.There isn't quite *that* much extra room, but ample room for the Envoy on
a DIN rail.
5. I ma hesitant as well. Absent some good answers from Enphase, it's a
tough call because I don't consider their documented solution
compliant given that you can't ground the DIN rail they provide.



<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/cd7ee5b8f72f9150cba39549b618d038dca6f767?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floridasolardesigngroup.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=a4cdfea4a151220f>
*Jason Szumlanski*
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
(239) 491-8010 (239) 410-4985
www.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/c677689c3f678ffaffc928248903416b6527e0d4?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.FloridaSolarDesignGroup.com&userId=1613865&signature=51d821586fb66e26>
[image: Facebook]
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f25733ecf11782bdea1c7a9b0b578bbd7b7e645d?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Ffloridasolardesigngroup&userId=1613865&signature=b9bf743399157a4f>
[image:
Twitter]
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/9db60e6983ff51be3465543c64d70f5ac39b5392?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FFloridaSolarDG&userId=1613865&signature=f0f6684ccf90f946>
[image:
Youtube]
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/7e09bbb712d3ed6735c5bf2febabb0569a23e382?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fchannel%2FUCjnsYt5r7DNJD3ZnqI10j8g&userId=1613865&signature=6873b4330fbe90e3>



On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 4:07 AM William Miller 
wrote:

> Jason:
>
>
>
> Several issues come to mind:
>
>
>
> 1.   I think the question that dictates is the insulation rating of the
> Envoy and associated wiring as possibly exposed to voltages within the
> panelboard.  This is akin, but not identical, to the scenario described in
> NEC 300.3(C).  Insulation rating matters if any low voltage equipment could
> in any odd-ball scenario contact an energized part.  I don’t imagine the
> Envoy assembly has an insulation rating.  The insulation rating must also
> apply to any communications, CT or any other purposed conductors associated
> the Envoy.  Indeed, this is the same problem regularly encountered when
> installing energy monitor equipment, such as E-gauge or similar, in panels.
>
> 2.   If there are any power line communications interference problems,
> you want your Enphase branch circuits to land in a separate sub-panel so
> you can apply filtering if needed.  The Envoy must be connected to that
> sub-panel.  Enphase makes some custom combiners for this specific purpose.
> Any reason you are not using a sub-panel or Enphase combiner to collect
> Enphase circuits?
>
> 3.   If the Envoy is in a metal can will the Wi-Fi work?
>
> 4.   If there is so much room, would you consider mounting an enclosure
> in the panel inside of which the Envoy could be mounted?  A PVC pull box,
> as one option, would not diminish the Wi-Fi signal any more than it already
> is and would provide the insulation needed to keep energized parts away
> from the low voltage equipment that is the Envoy.  I have even bent up some
> galvanized sheet metal partitions to install in breaker panels.  If well
> fabricated and bonded, this has made me feel warm and fuzzy about the
> safety of same.
>
> 5.   Based on the above, I would not put a naked Envoy in a breaker panel
> unless it was my own house.
>
>
>
> I hope these musings help you decide on a design strategy that you and the
> AHJ think is safe and legal.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5dd283a39fd90538d788acedda94c8e99c05b474?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=f5aaf0e548f4604a>
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 1, 2020 2:00 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Envoy Enclosures
>
>
>
> Can anyone point to any code issues with mounting an Envoy inside of a
> panelboard? For example, when installing a 3-phase commercial system with a
> large 400A AC combiner panelboard, there is often PLENTY of room to mount
> an Envoy inside on a DIN rail. Aside from the manufacturer's instructions
> not specifically listing this op

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase sizing

[Jason Szumlanski]

It depends on climate, orientation, and other factors. Here it is really
hot almost all the time. We rarely experience anything close to the max
power rating of a module here. If the orientation isn't ideal, that's
another argument for oversizing. Around here we use 385 and 390W 72-cell
modules on the 290W IQ7+ and rarely see clipping that would outweigh the
advantages and cost-efficiency. Incidentally, early indications from some
low temp coefficient 360W modules show that they do quite well compared to
385W modules with more standard coefficients this time of year. I need more
data on that to make a real assessment. And modules with low temp
coefficients tend to be pricey.

I am very comfortable with 1.3x - 1.4x here in Southwest Florida using
standard modules. Elsewhere I would expect the ratio to be somewhat lower.
I have no justification for the IQ7A here at this time.

P.S. My CED Greentech rep shared some Helioscope data using the IQ7 (not
plus) and 360W 120-half-cell REC Alphas. There is only a marginal advantage
to using the IQ7+ over the IQ7 in that scenario here. I still opt for the
IQ7+ since it is marginally better when considering cost and performance
and it is more compatible/flexible. Since it's the same max quantity per
string, I don't see the point in dropping to the IQ7 for the price
difference.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jay  wrote:

> Hi all
>
> For those working with Enphase.
> How hard are people recommending pushing the DC/AC ratio?
>
> Enphase has some pretty convincing data that even a 400 watt module on a
> 240watt inverter has very small clipping vs annual production
>
> Given that why would i recommend to a customer the IQ7A at 360va and quite
> a bit more expensive vs the 240va IQ7?
> Location would have something to do of course, tilt, yes.
> But it seems that unless you’re installing a really large module or their
> data is wrong, I’m not sure I see the advantage of the larger inverter?
>
> I’m hoping there will be some counter views.
>
> Thanks
> Jay
> Peltz power.
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1e66ec6cd3b2747d2145aba8ea9326b4f61101d7?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a99335d33726bdea>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/295d53353b27ec5f999b79c92fed393ce3ee3d70?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=481e602a701a1f2a>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/2409c8d017e08bd3b3011f0117e0b14d16af76d7?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=74569fb32f8d3170>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3c8d7e6368cee6b21623eb110c8b5ade898c77bd?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=86bce5644a4e9223>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0f27f65d0c6f272a58e07c51a8dbca7e3c32934d?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=8a0f4d03dd25c310>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable

[Jason Szumlanski]

Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when
making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box?

We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for
something that might be more readily available.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase sizing

[Jason Szumlanski]

You're right on the string sizing. My mistake. I was thinking IQ6+ vs IQ7+.

Mac makes a great point about the AC output rating and utilities. While the
de facto (arbitrary) AC to DC ratio is 0.85x for the interconnection tier
determination in Florida, I have one Co-Op that has agreed on a case by
case basis to use the actual inverter output rating if it drops them down a
tier, saving costs, insurance requirements, and the requirement for a
disconnect switch. A 1.3x ratio means a 0.77x factor from the utility's
perspective rather than 0.85x.

FWIW, we have a lot of 1.3x ratios on M190s monitored out there. I have
found no correlation between failure rates based on module watts.
Admittedly, there were lots of M190 failures in general, but I don't see
the ratio as a determining factor.

Jason




On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:09 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Jay,
>
> This is where a modeling program can really help.  We use Helioscope to
> model these (they let you try it for free) and extract the true benefit of
> the more expensive inverter.  Like Jason says, it's really all about the
> environment, tilt & orientation etc.  I have found there is also a
> psychological component to a customer to see them clipping even if your
> annual production estimates are right on.  I haven't seen evidence that
> Enphase life is compromised by overpowering them for many hours per day,
> but we will see over time if that's true.  Most of the time for non-ideal
> roof mounts, we have found that an IQ7 will really lose very little energy
> annually compared to the IQ7+.  Like Jason, we have found no real reason to
> use the IQ7A.
>
> There are other things to consider.  For example, we have a utility
> that puts fixed limits on the size of a solar system based on AC output of
> the inverter.  Oftentimes, dropping to an IQ7 allows a larger DC system and
> thus more kWh to be produced.  Stringing can change as well.
>
> Also, Jason according to the spec sheet you can put 16 of the IQ7 as
> opposed to 13 of the IQ7+ on each string but maybe I misunderstood you.
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> It depends on climate, orientation, and other factors. Here it is really
>> hot almost all the time. We rarely experience anything close to the max
>> power rating of a module here. If the orientation isn't ideal, that's
>> another argument for oversizing. Around here we use 385 and 390W 72-cell
>> modules on the 290W IQ7+ and rarely see clipping that would outweigh the
>> advantages and cost-efficiency. Incidentally, early indications from some
>> low temp coefficient 360W modules show that they do quite well compared to
>> 385W modules with more standard coefficients this time of year. I need more
>> data on that to make a real assessment. And modules with low temp
>> coefficients tend to be pricey.
>>
>> I am very comfortable with 1.3x - 1.4x here in Southwest Florida using
>> standard modules. Elsewhere I would expect the ratio to be somewhat lower.
>> I have no justification for the IQ7A here at this time.
>>
>> P.S. My CED Greentech rep shared some Helioscope data using the IQ7 (not
>> plus) and 360W 120-half-cell REC Alphas. There is only a marginal advantage
>> to using the IQ7+ over the IQ7 in that scenario here. I still opt for the
>> IQ7+ since it is marginally better when considering cost and performance
>> and it is more compatible/flexible. Since it's the same max quantity per
>> string, I don't see the point in dropping to the IQ7 for the price
>> difference.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:08 PM Jay  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> For those working with Enphase.
>>> How hard are people recommending pushing the DC/AC ratio?
>>>
>>> Enphase has some pretty convincing data that even a 400 watt module on a
>>> 240watt inverter has very small clipping vs annual production
>>>
>>> Given that why would i recommend to a customer the IQ7A at 360va and
>>> quite a bit more expensive vs the 240va IQ7?
>>> Location would have something to do of course, tilt, yes.
>>> But it seems that unless you’re installing a really large module or
>>> their data is wrong, I’m not sure I see the advantage of the larger
>>> inverter?
>>>
>>> I’m hoping there will be some counter views.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Jay
>>> Peltz power.
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable

[Jason Szumlanski]

I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to
transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field
wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong.



On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:

> 12/2 flat tray cable?
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> *PV-Cables Inc. *
>
> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D*
>
> *Ferndale CA 95536*
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Miller
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>
>
>
> Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters?
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>
>
>
> Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when
> making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box?
>
>
>
> We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for
> something that might be more readily available.
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable

[Jason Szumlanski]

But is this compatible with Enphase field wireables?

I know Enphase type DG cable is built on the TC-ER specs, but would it be a
listing violation to use TC-ER with the connectors?



On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 2:55 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:

> TC-ER is the way to go, easily found in stock all over the country and
> much less in cost than the Q-Cable
>
>
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> *PV-Cables Inc. *
>
> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D*
>
> *Ferndale CA 95536*
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1a70300bcf6c92dda79f16f14899558929083c9b?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pv-cables.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=8d4fe9689f54f1c1>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2020 2:50 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>
>
>
> I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to
> transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field
> wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:
>
> 12/2 flat tray cable?
>
>
>
> *Bryan Norkunas*
>
> *PV-Cables Inc. *
>
> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D*
>
> *Ferndale CA 95536*
>
> (707) 923-3000 office
>
> www.pv-cables.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/edc9311580c6e29972282323a971013d91c53054?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pv-cables.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=32b8197d24331f68>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *William Miller
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>
>
>
> Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters?
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/19d0fe06a61e04488e62434bc2601a0ebc632743?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=622e773373a5faca>
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>
>
>
> Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when
> making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box?
>
>
>
> We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for
> something that might be more readily available.
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/12818bfdf1d675683a26bb4d1eaae88899934dcc?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=58e8fc159f54056f>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f22f4ead536e65f517875dbc0ad45801ad9cf0a6?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=b303454bc005f8b6>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e670dc8e66558afa090d2b4be0ef4ea82f5913f6?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=6b662f43f6ec0cfc>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/efd33e1b83e75868ba91b16b258ac2dcf63b8e5b?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=d8c593cdfe237715>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/ecfc4ebc9ccae64ae2deb218d7b239bc696c239c?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=f790bbf70f35a6d8>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & se

Re: [RE-wrenches] Label Maker

[Jason Szumlanski]

We use the Dymo Rhino 5200 for some labels. It's pricey. I wish I had known
about the Brady model.

I agree about PV-Labels. They ship really fast and the USPS priority gets
to us in Florida in 2-3 days typically. Their overnight freight rates are
strangely expensive, especially since USPS offers flat rate envelope
pricing that would be perfect for flat labels and placards. Regardless,
they have always been very reliable for us.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 11:26 PM frenergy  wrote:

> We have a drawer full of labels and placards from PV-Labels.  If we need
> smaller "fine-tuned" labels quickly, occasionally we'll use the Brady BMP21
> Plus (3/4" vinyl cartridge) if its not going to see much sun.  The label
> makers you may be referring to cost $700 to $4K! so we've opted to stock
> PV-labels.  PV-labels makes a zillion different labels and will custom make
> and ship same day labels of your request, placards too usually next day.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/8cafab0d99db526f96a9f0960811fd118d29b836?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.frenergy.net&userId=1613865&signature=f225f5585d49be0a>
>
> On 10/10/2020 6:35 PM, Evan M wrote:
>
> Hey Wrenches,
> Anyone had any luck with one of those DIY label maker machines you can
> bring to the site? I'm skeptical of most of them for fear that the quality
> of the label isn't up to constant sun exposure, rain, weather, etc. Would
> be a nice to have for the non-standard labels that are different from
> project to project.
>
> Thx,
> Evan
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & 
> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/c420cf1922eeb250be2a69f85011625dba51327a?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=46df6d670295d3a3>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the 
> other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b07d80209495f0e81d1ef87087bb0595dcaecfc6?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=926a1b14f764ddc0>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>  
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/acd3bedf8970d6f684f5e9ab7d8d2d34da8add4b?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=19dacb2b05b434e8>
>
> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/ff4a7cfd2615507831f35c91b9e94ea4c7543ed9?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=5a3d9bebefeeb048>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/9fbdd3d8858eb576de178e8922fc7d08470d6fde?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=4a961a69f9a4d16d>
>
> --
>
>
>
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5a5ff13793c0011c5f2a6d4ea753aea365b1d632?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient%26utm_term%3Dicon&userId=1613865&signature=0fb0179dc461af71>
>  Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/8044cd13412821e1b60eefdd040ccac1e5714463?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_source%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient%26utm_term%3Dlink&userId=1613865&signature=2aab34dae2b2c18e>
> <#m_5282759508976784962_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a5eeab376ccdf198872b4959fb0c2b21090f9a41?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=f2bc6f5f4666d893>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/02e63c89321393dfd0

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm learning that manufacturers data sheets state that 2-conductor Type TC
cable is not -ER rated. I don't think that is going to work. I'm not sure
how Enphase gets around that with their Type DG cable, which they state is
built on the TC-ER standard, but it only has two conductors.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 10:22 AM Jay  wrote:

> Hi Jason.
>
> I just reviewed the assembly document and it does list in the notes wire
> specifications. It does not say only for emphase wire.
>
> If your wire meets those specs I think your good to go.
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
> On Oct 10, 2020, at 7:29 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
> But is this compatible with Enphase field wireables?
>
> I know Enphase type DG cable is built on the TC-ER specs, but would it be
> a listing violation to use TC-ER with the connectors?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 2:55 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:
>
>> TC-ER is the way to go, easily found in stock all over the country and
>> much less in cost than the Q-Cable
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Bryan Norkunas*
>>
>> *PV-Cables Inc. *
>>
>> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D*
>>
>> *Ferndale CA 95536*
>>
>> (707) 923-3000 office
>>
>> www.pv-cables.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1a70300bcf6c92dda79f16f14899558929083c9b?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pv-cables.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=8d4fe9689f54f1c1>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 8, 2020 2:50 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>>
>>
>>
>> I was thinking TC-ER. I would need a quick, easy, low cost way to
>> transition from the Q Cable to the TC-ER. I'm pretty sure the Enphase field
>> wireable connectors are not compatible with TC-ER, but I could be wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020, 6:37 PM Bryan Norkunas  wrote:
>>
>> 12/2 flat tray cable?
>>
>>
>>
>> *Bryan Norkunas*
>>
>> *PV-Cables Inc. *
>>
>> *989 Milton Ave Ste 1D*
>>
>> *Ferndale CA 95536*
>>
>> (707) 923-3000 office
>>
>> www.pv-cables.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/edc9311580c6e29972282323a971013d91c53054?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pv-cables.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=32b8197d24331f68>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *William Miller
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 7, 2020 9:42 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>>
>>
>>
>> Put your junction boxes closer to the microinverters?
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/19d0fe06a61e04488e62434bc2601a0ebc632743?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=622e773373a5faca>
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 6, 2020 9:08 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable
>>
>>
>>
>> Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when
>> making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box?
>>
>>
>>
>> We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for
>> something that might be more readily available.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/12818bfdf1d675683a26bb4d1eaae88899934dcc?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=58e8fc159f54056f>
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase Raw Q Cable

[Jason Szumlanski]

Yes, for sure UF would work. But I was wishfully thinking there was an
alternative cable for using Enphase's field wirable connectors. Type TC
12/2 cable is pretty identical to Enphase's DG cable from what I can tell,
but it does not carry the -ER designation. On the other hand, I don't
really see the -ER being the deciding factor here as to whether it can be
used in an exposed fashion. The -ER designation comes into play in
336.10(7) for industrial establishments only. Section 336.10(4) allows type
TC (without the -ER designation) to be supported by a messenger cable, but
solar rails don't seem to fit that definition. The only other thing that I
can think of is that solar rails fit the definition of a Cable Tray
(Article 392). If that is true, 336.12(2) seems to indicate Type TC would
suffice as long as 336.12(3) is met (identified as sunlight resistant).

I find it strange that the Enphase 12/2 DG cable is based on the
construction standards of Type TC-EC, but there is no such thing as 12/2
TC-ER cable that I can find. The -ER designation requires a third conductor
for all manufacturers I found. Per an Enphase technical brief:

Q Cable is a UL3003 DG (Distributed Generation) listed cabling system. The
DG cable standard UL3003
is based upon the construction specifications (wet rated) of TC-ER cable,
which may be installed in raceway
as per NEC 336.10(3). The Q Cable and raw Q Cable are manufactured with DG
cable to the specifications
in the Q Cable Specifications Table on page 4.

I did find this interesting article on the subject:
https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2017/05/follow-rules-installing-solar-ac-cabling/
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/45b5a529c0ea87b389fbd28f42c835e2d889?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarpowerworldonline.com%2F2017%2F05%2Ffollow-rules-installing-solar-ac-cabling%2F&userId=1613865&signature=67c3c34a1b318ea1>

So I'm guessing that Type TC would be acceptable for bridging gaps between
junction boxes, but would not be suitable for the Enphase field wirables
because the connectors are intended for use with Type DG cable listed to
the UL 3003 standard. Type TC does not fit the bill.


Jason



On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:44 PM Christopher Warfel <
cwar...@entech-engineering.com> wrote:

> You can use UF. It's rated for 60F terminals so you need to use that
> column in your ampacity calculations. There are some good occasions to use
> it. Chris
> On 10/8/2020 11:33 AM, Drake wrote:
>
> Is there any reason we can't use sunlight resistant UF cable?
>
> Drake Chamberlin
>
>
>
>
> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 NABCEP Certified Solar PV
> 740-448-7328 *http://athens-electric.com/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d206e03aff92c8b1a60f27e697312684703b81d5?url=http%3A%2F%2Fathens-electric.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=ce3b47e005ad6d53>
>
>
> At 12:08 PM 10/6/2020, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> Has anybody come up with a good wiring alternative to Raw Q Cable when
> making long runs along rails from a string to a junction box?Â
>
> We are running into supply problems through distribution. I'm looking for
> something that might be more readily available.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/25d09642184a5eadaad1069b9939d4d8b3ef52d3?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=fe2b63481811202b>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/c741c91f8b9f3d6f979de024746834738d645e11?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=f10d3eb179f20d2a>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/ce7cbf9cfaa6d8aefe706ba4821a3584f2487a62?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=0b6f261543041584>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/12c59a8ceca0029a3fc5bf79eb2040f24620ed14?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=67e010552e88ab30>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/c7b729363896306e16cefb97b407f50b836cf252?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites

[Jason Szumlanski]

I don't agree with this advice about the ferrite rings. Put the ferrite
rings on the Enphase combined inverter output circuit from the AC combiner
to the point of interconnection. That filters out all noise from all
sources. I can be a pain with larger conductor sizes if you have to loop
the conductors more than once. It sounds like you have #4 minimum for a 66A
calculated circuit, which will take some space to accomplish. See here:
https://enphase.com/en-us/support/faq/where-do-i-install-ferrite-toroid-rings
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5360f7e2abc1e49b7f3a800ee95a790a57e1e9a7?url=https%3A%2F%2Fenphase.com%2Fen-us%2Fsupport%2Ffaq%2Fwhere-do-i-install-ferrite-toroid-rings&userId=1613865&signature=0ad9d8a6734f8c49>

Now since you say you are using IQ7 micros, presumably you are using the IQ
Combiner, which can handle 64 of those micros. When using the IQ Combiner,
I have only had one instance where there was sufficient noise to cause a
problem with micro->Envoy comms. In this case it was IQ6+ micros and it was
a nearby heat pump pool heater causing the interference. It was easy to
determine the source since it started each day with the pool pump and
stopped when the setpoint pool temperature was reached. It would be helpful
to know how you have the AC strings combined and where the Envoy is
connected.

On cell comms, no matter what, you are at a serious disadvantage. I will
say also that cell comm issues can look like micro reporting issues. I had
a cell comm site recently where it would all of a sudden not report for 1-3
expected reporting intervals in a row, then catch up. This looked a lot
like micro reporting issues from the Enlighten perspective. A software
update from Enphase resolved this.

Honestly, I hate the Enphase cell comm 6-hour reporting cycle. It is pretty
terrible actually. I avoid it at all costs. I had a community of 104
Enphase homes all commissioned on cell modems and it was a nightmare
dealing with diagnostics and especially CT issues (since we could not power
up systems that had no meter at the time of installation to check CTs for
proper installation). I agree with Enphase on this point - get it connected
to broadband, at least temporarily to diagnose issues. I have gone as far
as using an Ethernet wi-fi bridge connected to my mobile hotspot to
diagnose issues.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group



On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 5:01 PM  wrote:

> We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that
> reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder,
> and one I’m trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point
> reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance
> that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes
> troubleshooting a nightmare.
>
>
>
> Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise
> issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that.
>
>
>
> She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved
> in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump
> circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use
> ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits.
>
>
>
> Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC
> comms issue I’ve had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us.
>
>
>
> Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and
> recommendation on ferrite installation?
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b01ab50577a96d5c6d51e53ec65712c321492f87?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=112588f5f3a635f8>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1165224791c1f5406b2479d41f0610fb90cd22c6?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=8ced3d9f5bad0306>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3abd6e43a461e47afbe94545818cfb499c215731?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=5ef22cba1f92417e>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/4c7a43909ec21e151b96ca8b05b6f5e001eb5d65?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase noise interference to reporting; use ferrites

[Jason Szumlanski]

True, but this is MUCH less of a problem with IQ compared to M-Series.

I just installed 212 IQ micros on a building with 268 existing M-Series.
The M-series required ferrite rings and the IQ worked flawlessly without
any filtering (although it took about 3 hours for all of the IQ micros to
initially come alive initially). This is a grocery with a lot of noise /
motor loads.

Jason


On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 6:46 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Wrenches
> Noise in the AC circuits and Enphase is nothing new, when they adapted the
> new frequency this was in part to get away from the noise so it sounds like
> they still have a problem. I have seen a variety of new products effect the
> data stream.
> Jerry
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 2:37 PM  wrote:
>
>> We have a 53 IQ7 microinverter system on new-build construction that
>> reported and performed just great until the homeowner (a custom builder,
>> and one I’m trying not to unimpress!) moved in Sept 1 at which point
>> reporting went wonkers with inconsistent data, perceived underperformance
>> that seemed to shift through the array. All the stuff that makes
>> troubleshooting a nightmare.
>>
>>
>>
>> Enphase tech support level 1 was great and immediately pointed to a noise
>> issue and she had a level 2 tech check and confirm that.
>>
>>
>>
>> She recommended I get it on wifi (was on cell comms until the owner moved
>> in) so I could get near real time reporting, then to go through the pump
>> circuits to see what is making the noise and when I identify it to use
>> ferrite loops to reduce the noise on those circuits.
>>
>>
>>
>> Relatively new to Enphase since they brought on IQ7 and this is first PLC
>> comms issue I’ve had to date. IQ7+ has been rock-solid for us.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anybody have any experience with this noise and interference and
>> recommendation on ferrite installation?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof/self taping screws

[Jason Szumlanski]

There is a glaring lack of good options for 5V metal roofs in Florida.
Sure, there are some butyl tape based attachments that penetrate the metal,
but what happens when the truss lands below a V-crimp? The only real option
is a deck mount solution or truss blocking (which is excruciating in a
Florida attic.




On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Why puncture the metal can't S-5 be used.
> Jerry
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020, 12:42 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> What do people recommend for a metal roof ( with flat sections, not
>> corrugated)on 3/16” thick x 2” wide C channel for attaching L feet
>>
>> Self taping fasteners would be the easiest. Doing a nut and bolt would be
>> possible but quite time consuming.
>> A machine self taping bolt and then adding a nut would be a lot easier
>> than nut and bolt.
>>
>> But that is my question. Is a self taping screw enough or does it need to
>> be bolted?
>>
>> Jay
>> Peltz power
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Jason Szumlanski]

I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system
(not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma.
It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still
connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still
attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a
bit, but the client built a ground rack after this.

To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what
the spacing was on the clamps, either.


On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Wrenches
> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the
> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are
> no different than anything else installed on the roof.
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with a
>> string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.
>>
>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing
>> that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>> 
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>> text 209 813 0060*
>>
>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well
>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to
>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are
>> stronger than the roofing.
>>
>> --
>> Hilton Dier III
>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>> Renewable Energy Design
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> 
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> 
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Jason Szumlanski]

I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold
the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It
is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few
clamps.



On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White  wrote:

> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers
> that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the
> array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the
> attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building.
>
> Thanks,
> Will
>
>   --
> *Will White*
> Curriculum Developer
>
>
> e: w...@solarenergy.org
> w: www.solarenergy.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/cdc1e1f93adb1352208990ede1e5191895d41435?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarenergy.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=4501294306ef167a>
>
> p: 802-272-3092
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> # 093006-34
> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/e6cb1800f9273a5c6a30eed1f13b034e522f98d4?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsolarenergy.org%2Fdonate&userId=1613865&signature=5258e2c2b91b9204>
> .
>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large system
>> (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane Irma.
>> It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still
>> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still
>> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a
>> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this.
>>
>> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know what
>> the spacing was on the clamps, either.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wrenches
>>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the
>>> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are
>>> no different than anything else installed on the roof.
>>> Jerry
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
>>> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off with
>>>> a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.
>>>>
>>>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only thing
>>>> that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/b0e6d73847b0d7d442ccbc699ac04d43af439126?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.sti.net%2Foffgridsolar%2F&userId=1613865&signature=605126a0d342965b>
>>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III <
>>>> hiltond...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well
>>>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to
>>>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are
>>>> stronger than the roofing.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Hilton Dier III
>>>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>>>> Renewable Energy Design
>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>
>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/c8c10db58e3efe69734e322e5f0f31ec7e090028?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a6d485c377ef9948>
>>>>
>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>>> the other:
>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/80ddb795f7b98bd366d1e20301902285a48448c7?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.m

Re: [RE-wrenches] Metal roof

[Jason Szumlanski]

I didn't have the opportunity to investigate it with any
forensic/scientific methodology. The clamps could have been very close to
the eave, spaced too far in the corner zones, cantilevers could have been
excessive... it's hard to tell. But I was surprised by the failure mode as
well. It did give me confidence that the S-5's would not separate from the
seams at least. FWIW it was Unirac standard rail with SolarWorld 60-cell on
a 3:12 pitch at about 25 feet height, right on the beach (170 mph ultimate
design wind speed, Exp D).

Jason


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:37 PM Will White  wrote:

> That's a really interesting failure mode. I would have thought the
> fasteners would have pulled out but I guess it makes sense that the metal
> ripped.
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 3:19 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I would say it was the metal itself. It was torn, so the clips that hold
>> the metal to the roof held, at least long enough for the metal to tear. It
>> is completely plausible that the point load was too high from too few
>> clamps.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 8:16 AM Will White  wrote:
>>
>>> It's interesting that you experienced this as I've always told customers
>>> that the roof will come off the building with the array attached before the
>>> array comes off the metal roof. Sounds like the issue was with the
>>> attachment (or lack of) between the roof and the building.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Will
>>>
>>>   --
>>> *Will White*
>>> Curriculum Developer
>>>
>>> e: w...@solarenergy.org
>>> w: www.solarenergy.org
>>> p: 802-272-3092
>>>
>>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>> # 093006-34
>>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
>>> <http://solarenergy.org/donate>.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 5:41 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would add that S-5s are only as good as the roof. We saw a large
>>>> system (not ours) that ripped the metal right off the roof during Hurricane
>>>> Irma. It literally tore the meta. The panels, rails, and S-5s were still
>>>> connected, sitting on the ground with chunks of metal roofing still
>>>> attached to the S-5s. It was quite the mangled mess. We salvaged quite a
>>>> bit, but the client built a ground rack after this.
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, this was a totally exposed beachfront home. I don't know
>>>> what the spacing was on the clamps, either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:00 PM Jerry Shafer 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wrenches
>>>>> I think what you said is totally true,"its only as good as the
>>>>> instalation" but here is where l differ, S-5's if installed correctly are
>>>>> no different than anything else installed on the roof.
>>>>> Jerry
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020, 8:42 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
>>>>> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The S5 is only as good as the installer. I have seen them come off
>>>>>> with a string of panels on an insurance inspection I did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I billed them and made another note in my journal of why the only
>>>>>> thing that should go on a metal roof is rainwater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>>>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
>>>>>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
>>>>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
>>>>>> text 209 813 0060*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:37:07 -0400, Hilton Dier III <
>>>>>> hiltond...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm with Jerry Shafer on this one. S-5 clamps with rails work well
>>>>>> without punching holes in the metal roof. If the roof is fastened well to
>>>>>> beefy steel C channel it should be fine. The S-5 clamps themselves are
>>>>>> stronger than the roofing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Hilton Dier III
>>>>>> Missisquoi River Hydro
>>>>>> Renewable Energy Design
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
loads and fault currents.
 (Image attached).



On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault.
> But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the
> PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
> side.
>
> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that
> sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't
> seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get
> these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers
> of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It
> says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS
> connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the
> supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement
> this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says.
> It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on
> load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.
>
> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but
> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about
> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague?
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Jason,
>> Here's the 2020 text:
>>
>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply
>> lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors
>> shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device
>> is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar
>> in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance
>> with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3).
>>
>>
>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the
>> form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors,
>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the
>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel.  The feed-through
>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel;
>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple
>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system
>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or
>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply,
>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this
>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized
>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its
>> end.
>>
>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not
>> connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish
>> overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple
>> power sources.
>>
>> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below
>> the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault
>> somewhere along those conductors.
>>
>> Brian Mehalic
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
>> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
>> (520) 204-6639
>>
>> Solar Energy International
>> http://www.solarenergy.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6861d7d8805b342c05a1945424d5d3679153b6c2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarenergy.org&userId=1613865&signature=755f4d3125876434>
>>
>> SEI Professional Services
>> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/56a599fdf28222e003dcf7711461480ee5165051?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seisolarpros.com&userId=1613865&signature=68c217cadacd349b>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault.
But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the
PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
side.

If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that
sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't
seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get
these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers
of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It
says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS
connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the
supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement
this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says.
It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on
load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.

My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but
the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about
feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague?

Jason




On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

> Hey Jason,
> Here's the 2020 text:
>
> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply
> lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors
> shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device
> is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar
> in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance
> with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3).
>
>
> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in the
> form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors,
> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the
> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel.  The feed-through
> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel;
> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple
> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system
> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or
> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply,
> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this
> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized
> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its
> end.
>
> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when not
> connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or re-establish
> overcurrent protection for that portion of the feeder subject to multiple
> power sources.
>
> In your drawing the 200 A feeder conductors, as well as the busbar below
> the PV system breaker, could be subject to > 200 A in the event of a fault
> somewhere along those conductors.
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
> (520) 204-6639
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/86b5841c6230a1049a6fd06f2085b233a0593f23?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarenergy.org&userId=1613865&signature=9fd3dbba7d87587d>
>
> SEI Professional Services
> http://www.seisolarpros.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/9d97577f8c6b7e825f5e4c332a4cd891a9425e17?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seisolarpros.com&userId=1613865&signature=8e111ea91bebc146>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 10:18 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone else think they botched the wording in this section? It's
>> still not clear, and we have a ton of meter/main combos with feed-through
>> lugs around here.
>>
>> Where is it written, "where an overcurrent device is installed at the *supply
>> end* of the feed-through conductors," (emphasis added) are they
>> referring to the solar backfed breaker on the busbar or another breaker
>> somewhere along the feeder circuit? It goes on to state that the loads on
>> the supplying busbar can comply with any method in 705.12(B)(3), which
>> prescribes an OCPD at the load end of the feeder in 705.12(B)(3)(3), so
>> they can't be talking about that. I have to assume it is the solar
>> backfed breaker

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm not following you. How is this not at the end of the feeder? The feeder
terminates at the main breaker in the subpanel.


On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:34 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:

> This scenario is certainly allowed, but since it's not at the end of the
> feeder, either:
>
>1. a.
>
>The feeder ampacity shall be not less than the sum of the primary
>source overcurrent device and 125 percent of the power-source output
>circuit current.
>2. b.
>
>An overcurrent device at the load side of the power source connection
>point shall be rated not greater than the ampacity of the feeder.
>
> As with the feed-thru conductors, the idea is make them big enough or
> re-establish overcurrent protection, and protect busbars accordingly.
>
>
>
>
> Brian Mehalic
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
> National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
> (520) 204-6639
>
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org
>
> SEI Professional Services
> http://www.seisolarpros.com
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 2:48 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
>> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
>> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
>> loads and fault currents.
>>  (Image attached).
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a
>>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job
>>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
>>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
>>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
>>> side.
>>>
>>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD,
>>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I
>>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can
>>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other
>>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything
>>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are
>>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent
>>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how
>>> you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but
>>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars,
>>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.
>>>
>>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but
>>> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about
>>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague?
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Jason,
>>>> Here's the 2020 text:
>>>>
>>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that
>>>> supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through
>>>> conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an
>>>> overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through
>>>> conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be
>>>> sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in
>>>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors,
>>>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the
>>>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel.  The feed-through
>>>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel;
>>>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple
>>>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system
>>>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or
>>>> they can be protected

Re: [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'd look at 230.90, 230.91 and 230.94.

I don't think you can argue that the outside disconnect in this scenario is
not the service disconnecting means when it is not service rated. you would
have unprotected service conductors on the line and load side of the
device.

I have just made it a practice to only allow service rated enclosures for
all supply side interconnections. I think it is the most conservative
approach. Not having enough physical space is definitely frustrating.

Jason Szumlanski




On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 1:04 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Lloyd,
> I see what you are saying. Although in 250.24, it seems that they are
> expecting this first disconnect to have overcurrent protection and be the
> service disconnecting means. So what if the first disconnect does not have
> overcurrent protection? I am assuming the "service disconnect" is the first
> point of overcurrent protection for the service. What I am thinking of is
> similar to the disconnect allowed on the line side of the meter (230.82
> (3)), although this one is on the load side of the meter.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/bf5d06b319267be5a76641988d4606ca49838c57?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taitem.com&userId=1613865&signature=ba98d229bb3fbb14>
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 12:03 PM Lloyd Hoffstatter <
> ll...@sunstruckconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>> Dave,
>> Looking at 2014, NEC 250.24(B) FPN and exhibits tends to imply bonding at
>> first means of disconnect. This also minimizes potential ground loops.
>> Best regards,
>> Lloyd Hoffstatter
>> Sunstruck Consulting
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/63cc71f967c41c9982b86a7a4271879e3de28a21?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fo0ukef&userId=1613865&signature=e5b08d5390e82031>
>> --
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  on
>> behalf of Dave Tedeyan 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 29, 2020 9:56:47 AM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches 
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] unfused disconnect before service disconnect
>>
>> I'm looking to the hive mind here to see if others can weigh in on an
>> issue I am having with an inspector. Grid tied PV system, with a line side
>> tap in an automatic transfer switch. There is an outdoor utility required
>> system disconnect right next to the transfer switch. But there was not
>> enough physical space to get something that was service rated with
>> overcurrent protection. So we installed a QO200TR, which is a tiny switch
>> that looks like a circuit breaker, is rated at 60A, but does not actually
>> have overcurrent protection. Then just inside the basement is the service
>> disconnect with the neutral ground bond, etc. The inspector is telling me
>> to bond the neutral and ground in the outdoor unfused disconnect, and
>> remove it in the disconnect in the basement.
>>
>> I am having trouble finding a code reference. Does anyone know of one
>> showing that the unfused disconnect is not the service point even though it
>> comes first? Or is this not something that is allowed? We are on NEC 2017
>> here in NY..
>> .
>> Thanks!
>> -Dave
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>>
>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
>> www.taitem.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/7cf381d479889e720290cca661851e641ff162a9?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taitem.com&userId=1613865&signature=fd1c5e2a04f92cce>
>>
>> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
>> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/72f72b5a7471721d5a72925010cc6ad50ee10bf7?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=6c04ecb8c5e78aa0>
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/01e9c1cd4631706e2c2db71d97a84624948cd72c?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-a

Re: [RE-wrenches] factory module damage, has anyone seen this?

[Jason Szumlanski]

I would never accept this from my distributor. It would be going back with
a full refund or I'd take my business elsewhere. My distributor would never
accept this from a manufacturer I would think. That's the whole benefit of
having a middleman - they are paid to deal with these kinds of issue!

Jason



On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 3:36 PM Jay  wrote:

> I wanted to give a final update as to this issue
>
> Canadian solar drew the line with “ it’s within tolerance, not a warranty
> issue”
>
> So I’m out of options from them. Quite disappointed and I won’t buy them
> again.
>
> My distributor was great and with their discount I feel a bit better.
>
> But any kind of return wasn’t on the table.
>
> Thanks
>
> Jay
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Bad Diodes in QCells?

[Jason Szumlanski]

I have a client with one QCell 260W module that has been installed for a
few years now and has (apparently) had a bad diode since inception
(determined via microinverter readings). We concluded with the (thankfully
reasonable) homeowner that it isn't worth the expense to investigate
further or pursue warranty coverage.

Other than that, no issues, but I have not installed a QCell in at least 2+
years.

Jason Szumlanski




On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 11:27 PM AE Solar 
wrote:

> Wrenchers,
> Wondering if anyone has had any experience with bad diodes in QCell
> panels. Two of our projects this summer had panels that were putting out
> half of their rated voltage. At first it seemed like it was a defect from
> the factory, and it was caught upon commissioning the system, but I'm now
> seeing that another panel has gone bad about two months after install. I've
> spoken with a few distributors and they said they haven't heard anything
> about this being a pattern. I'm in the RMA process with QCell, and don't
> feel like I'm getting complete transparency from them. So far we have 8
> defective panels out of 300. It was in two different projects that were
> months apart. I'm not sure if they were from the same shipment or not. All
> of them were Q.PEAK DUO 400 watt panels. Interested to know if anyone
> else is having similar experiences? Thanks for any thoughts.
> Adam
>
> Adam Katzman
> Autonomous Energies
> PO Box 1245
> Kingston, NY 12402
> www.autonomousenergies.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/5a7d1d523883bb9a2d93a32c368331a49c63f51f?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autonomousenergies.com&userId=1613865&signature=a0c8c76e5fb183fe>
> (518) 567-1468
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3fb36e05df00cf9abfa05e29c1514c6253eb4ecd?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=2486d58fb0408fbf>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f743319663de3878889565091ef7729f4c42ade1?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=fdc278148b55f310>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/863ae566845f6275731c0727397097412903a952?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=002df76fcd6fd916>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/16a93740e0656ef405a8e6e6af6d8d9bd0174928?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=5f02a9f003cc4bde>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/59807045d2be38a4c624e3f64f84abae23863564?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=ac09b0d7883ae5bc>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a
problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder
conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without
an OCPD stopping it.

My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were
addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still
struggling with this.

I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are
popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious
what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of
the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker
is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type
work.

Jason Szumlanski





On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
> loads and fault currents.
>  (Image attached).
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a
>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job
>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
>> side.
>>
>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD,
>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I
>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can
>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other
>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything
>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are
>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent
>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how
>> you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but
>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars,
>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.
>>
>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but
>> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about
>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague?
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Jason,
>>> Here's the 2020 text:
>>>
>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that supply
>>> lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through conductors
>>> shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an overcurrent device
>>> is installed at the supply end of the feed-through conductors, the busbar
>>> in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be sized in accordance
>>> with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3).
>>>
>>>
>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in
>>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to those conductors,
>>> re-establishing overcurrent protection of the conductors (likely at the
>>> same ampacity as the main breaker in the supplying panel.  The feed-through
>>> conductors are basically an extension of the busbar in the supplying panel;
>>> they can either be protected by the main, or in the presence of multiple
>>> sources of power in the supplying panel (such as a backfed PV system
>>> breaker) they can be protected based on (B)(3)(1) - "the 125% rule" - or
>>> they can be protected by a new overcurrent device at their point of supply,
>>> in which case current on them is limited based on that OCPD size; in this
>>> latter scenario the busbar in the supplying panel is allowed to be sized
>>> based on one of (B)(3)(1) - (3) because it is protected downstream at its
>>> end.
>>>
>>> The theory is pretty much the same as 705.12(B)(1) for feeders - when
>>> not connecting at the end of the feeder, use the "125% rule" or
>>> re-establish overcurrent protection for that portion 

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

It's a 200A bus.

300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices
does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017.

In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as
additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label. Where
would 300A of current ever flow?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay  wrote:

> Hi Jason
>
> My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its
> 300 amps on the buss correct?
>
> How is that ok with the 125% rule?
>
> Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load
> center?
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a
> problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder
> conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without
> an OCPD stopping it.
>
> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were
> addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still
> struggling with this.
>
> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are
> popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious
> what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of
> the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker
> is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type
> work.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
>> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
>> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
>> loads and fault currents.
>>  (Image attached).
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a
>>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job
>>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
>>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
>>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
>>> side.
>>>
>>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD,
>>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I
>>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can
>>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other
>>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything
>>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are
>>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent
>>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how
>>> you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but
>>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars,
>>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.
>>>
>>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but
>>> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about
>>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague?
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey Jason,
>>>> Here's the 2020 text:
>>>>
>>>> 6) Connections shall be permitted on busbars of panelboards that
>>>> supply lugs connected to feed-through conductors. The feed-through
>>>> conductors shall be sized in accordance with 705.12(B)(1). Where an
>>>> overcurrent device is installed at the supply end of the feed-through
>>>> conductors, the busbar in the supplying panelboard shall be permitted to be
>>>> sized in accordance with 705.12(B)⁠(3)⁠(1) through 705.12(B)(3)(3).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The OCPD on the supply end of the feed-through conductors would be in
>>>> the form of a sub-feed breaker at the point of supply to tho

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

Correction... The PV OCPD would need to be 80A or less or the total loads
would need to be 100A or less. It's the sum of the OCPD, not loads plus
rated PV current.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:46 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> It's a 200A bus.
>
> 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices
> does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017.
>
> In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as
> additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label. Where
> would 300A of current ever flow?
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason
>>
>> My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its
>> 300 amps on the buss correct?
>>
>> How is that ok with the 125% rule?
>>
>> Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load
>> center?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be
>> a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder
>> conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without
>> an OCPD stopping it.
>>
>> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were
>> addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still
>> struggling with this.
>>
>> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are
>> popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious
>> what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of
>> the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker
>> is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type
>> work.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
>>> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
>>> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
>>> loads and fault currents.
>>>  (Image attached).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a
>>>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job
>>>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
>>>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
>>>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
>>>> side.
>>>>
>>>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD,
>>>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I
>>>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can
>>>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other
>>>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything
>>>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are
>>>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent
>>>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear
>>>> how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but
>>>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars,
>>>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.
>>>>
>>>> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow,
>>>> but the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about
>>>> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague?
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey Jason,
>>>>> Here's the 2020 text:
>>>>>
>>>>> 6) Connections shall

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

Here is the corrected drawing for the record.




On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 12:51 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Correction... The PV OCPD would need to be 80A or less or the total loads
> would need to be 100A or less. It's the sum of the OCPD, not loads plus
> rated PV current.
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:46 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> It's a 200A bus.
>>
>> 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply
>> devices does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in
>> 2014/2017.
>>
>> In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as
>> additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label. Where
>> would 300A of current ever flow?
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason
>>>
>>> My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV
>>> its 300 amps on the buss correct?
>>>
>>> How is that ok with the 125% rule?
>>>
>>> Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load
>>> center?
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be
>>> a problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder
>>> conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without
>>> an OCPD stopping it.
>>>
>>> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were
>>> addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still
>>> struggling with this.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are
>>> popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious
>>> what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of
>>> the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker
>>> is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type
>>> work.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
>>>> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
>>>> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
>>>> loads and fault currents.
>>>>  (Image attached).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a
>>>>> fault. But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the 
>>>>> job
>>>>> of the PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar 
>>>>> and
>>>>> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
>>>>> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the 
>>>>> load
>>>>> side.
>>>>>
>>>>> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD,
>>>>> that sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I
>>>>> haven't seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can
>>>>> get these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other
>>>>> manufacturers of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or 
>>>>> anything
>>>>> like that. It says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are
>>>>> feeder CONDUCTORS connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent
>>>>> device .. *at* the supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear
>>>>> how you would implement this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but
>>>>> that's not what it says. It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on 
>>>>> busbars,
>>>>> not feeder conductors on load-side terminals of a

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

Right. If the sum of the PV source OCPD and all load OCPD in the main panel
is less than or equal to the busbar rating, it complies
with 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c). Label the panel as required and you're all good.
Loads beyond the interconnection point do not matter for purposes of
705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) as long as the rules of 705.12(D)(2)(1) are applied.

This isn't explicitly stated in any revision of the code, but it's implicit
by applying all of the relevant sections of 705.12(D)(2).

The point of 705.12 is to ensure that no portion of any circuit will ever
see current in excess of the bus or conductor rating, and the PV source is
calculated at 125% of the inverter output rating (or the OCPD rating that
is greater than or equal to that). It comes down to common sense, but for
the sake of easing the burden on AHJs, I wish it was more explicit since
this is a common interconnection method around here.

Jason






On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 2:01 PM  wrote:

> It depends on how many loads there are on the meter main besides the
> feed-through. If the PV feed is coming from a point between the
> distribution panel and the meter main, current will cancel out utility
> power from the service drop.
>
> If you had over 200 amps of branch circuit loads on the meter main, it
> could be a problem with the feed coming from both directions.
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2020-11-08 12:02, Jay wrote:
>
> Hi Jason
>
> My question is if it's 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its
> 300 amps on the buss correct?
>
> How is that ok with the 125% rule?
>
> Or is this covered by some other rule as it's a feed through lug load
> center?
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a
> problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder
> conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without
> an OCPD stopping it.
>
> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were
> addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still
> struggling with this.
>
> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are
> popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious
> what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of
> the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker
> is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type
> work.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
> loads and fault currents.
>  (Image attached).
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault.
> But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the
> PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
> side.
>
> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that
> sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't
> seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get
> these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers
> of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It
> says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS
> connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the
> supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement
> this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says.
> It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on
> load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.
>
>
> My point is that 705.12 should have been wrapped up neatly in a bow, but
> the lack of clarity, still, is astonishing. Why add a section about
> feed-through lugs if it's going to be so vague?
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 3:37 PM Brian Mehalic 
> wrote:
>
> Hey Jason,
> Here's the 202

Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)

[Jason Szumlanski]

The code clearly allows a 400A supply (200 main plus 200 solar supply) to a
200A bus if there are no loads on that bus. Or a 300A total supply to a
200A bus with 100A of loads. That's 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) verbatim.

Better get an insulated wrench.





On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 12:53 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> . Where would 300A of current ever flow?
>
>
>
> What is someone dropped a wrench on the bus?  It would fault with greater
> than 200 amps.  This is and has been the point behind this code section.
>
>
>
> William
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/45f3322dcff8c8848aab527a83b7e9721f4281ff?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=5109dabe048e7da1>
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 8, 2020 9:47 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2020 - 705.12(B)(6)
>
>
>
> It's a 200A bus.
>
>
>
> 300A "on" the bus doesn't matter. The total of all load and supply devices
> does not exceed the bus rating. This is 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c) in 2014/2017.
>
>
>
> In no way can the total ampacity on the 200A bus exceed 200A as long as
> additional loads are not added, hence the required warning label
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 12:30 PM Jay  wrote:
>
> Hi Jason
>
>
>
> My question is if it’s 200a in from the main breaker and 100a from PV its
> 300 amps on the buss correct?
>
>
>
> How is that ok with the 125% rule?
>
>
>
> Or is this covered by some other rule as it’s a feed through lug load
> center?
>
>
>
> Jay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2020, at 9:46 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Maybe this is a better example (attached). I don't see how this would be a
> problem under NEC 2014, 2017, or 2020. No portion of the main bus, feeder
> conductors, or subpanel could possibly be subjected to overcurrent without
> an OCPD stopping it.
>
>
>
> My point is that here we are, 3 code cycles in since feeder taps were
> addressed, and there is still no clarification of intent. AHJs are still
> struggling with this.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure where residential meter/mains with feed through lugs are
> popular. I know they are in Florida and I have heard Hawaii. I'm curious
> what your jurisdictions think of this if you have this scenario. Most of
> the time the subpanel is main lug only, but adding a main circuit breaker
> is usually an easy and cost-effective fix to make this interconnection type
> work.
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:15 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> For further discussion, I don't see how my original scenario is any
> different from this attached scenario, which I think everyone would agree
> is allowed. All conductors and busbars are subject to the same potential
> loads and fault currents.
>
>  (Image attached).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> Of course the feeder conductors and bus bar could be subjected to a fault.
> But we're not talking about faults here. Fault protection is the job of the
> PV OCPD And primary supply OCPD to protect the downstream busbar and
> feeders. If that wasn't the case, you would need a new OCPD on BOTH the
> load and line side of a solar connection as a feeder tap, not just the load
> side.
>
>
>
> If your interpretation is correct regarding the location of the OCPD, that
> sounds like a sub-feed breaker is the only way to comply, and I haven't
> seen such an animal for a typical residential load center. You can get
> these for NQ panelboards and similar panelboards from other manufacturers
> of course. It doesn't say as close as practicable or anything like that. It
> says that a busbar connection is allowed when there are feeder CONDUCTORS
> connected to feed through LUGS. What does "overcurrent device .. *at* the
> supply end" mean? I emphasize "at." It's unclear how you would implement
> this other than a sub-feed breaker I suppose, but that's not what it says.
> It refers to feeder conductors on lugs on busbars, not feeder conductors on
> load-side terminals of an overcurrent device.
>
>
>
> My point is that 705.12 should have be

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng

[Jason Szumlanski]

The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase IQ
system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We
reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side
interconnection using Polaris taps).

Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue yesterday.
The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located on the
west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ
Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined
inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with
#6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors
on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper
is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current
around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days.

I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the
blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals.

For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to
replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A
disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a
better test. I might also switch brands.

Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time Delay.
I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to this,
but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan of
fuse reducers, however.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No
> weather-related correlation.
>
> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but
> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason
>>
>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR tool.
>>
>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher air
>> temp is causing it to fail.
>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed
>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool
>> during peak heat would be  a good test.
>>
>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s
>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over
>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker
>> ( CBI  vs CH etc) would have worked?
>>
>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun?  Is there any Correlation between
>>  high ambient temperatures and tripping?
>>
>> It sure would keep me up at night too
>>
>> Jay
>>
>>
>> On Aug 27, 2020, at 4:29 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> So the resolution to this is in... But I still have no idea what was
>> wrong.
>>
>> The string of 10 offending microinverters was split into 5 and 5. We had
>> a spare breaker in the IQ Combiner so it was relatively easy to run another
>> branch circuit. It has been over two months with no recurrence. So the
>> issue seems to be resolved, but again, no idea why.
>>
>> So here we go again... On another system we have a similar problem now.
>> In this case it is supply side interconnected with a fusible disconnect.
>> The same fuse (same line) keeps blowing every few to several weeks. We
>> can't find any home run wiring issues or issues with terminator caps. There
>> are no apparent faults in the AC Combiner. We have no idea why this is
>> happening. But in this system, just the fuse blows, not one of the
>> individual branch circuit breakers.
>>
>> This is getting very frustrating. And this is way more serious because
>> fuses and service calls are expensive and I can't isolate the issue to one
>> branch circuit. I don't even know where to start. Leaving each circuit
>> disconnected for several weeks to prove a negative is an untenable
>> suggestion to make to a client. But I don't see any other good options.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 3:42 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, we double-checked that. I have seen that happen before and it's one
>>> of my early diagnostic steps for something like this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
&

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent breaker trippjng

[Jason Szumlanski]

That's what I am thinking. And the IQ7+ max current is actually about 2%
higher than rated and we have a 1.3x DC to AC ratio so I would not be
surprised if all microinverters are completely maxed out for brief periods
at peak sun.

I'm working on getting pictures from one of my tech's phones. I think we
have one of the discolored wire.





On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 4:16 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Jason,
> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the sun?
> 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are also
> baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it over
> the edge? Just a thought.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f4542e8acedc3d46e0c318320bdeecbb0abd9c2e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taitem.com&userId=1613865&signature=1fe5f11e2f248f42>
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 3:41 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason
>>
>> Any chance for some photos?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> On Nov 18, 2020, at 12:18 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> The plot thickens on the fuse blowing issue. Again, we tore the Enphase
>> IQ system apart looking for any reason for the fuse to keep blowing. We
>> reconfirmed torque on all line side conductors to the service (supply side
>> interconnection using Polaris taps).
>>
>> Low and behold, I get a second client with the exact same issue
>> yesterday. The circumstances are eerily alike. Both disconnects are located
>> on the west side of the house and have 36 IQ7+ microinverters on an IQ
>> Combiner, requiring 60A fuses on the 60A fusible disconnect. The combined
>> inverter output rating is 43.56A. The interconnections are identical with
>> #6 THHN 90ºC conductors and Polaris taps. Both disconnects have conductors
>> on the right-hand side line-side terminal that are discolored (the copper
>> is silvery, the insulation is not burned). The fuses blow at peak current
>> around 1:30 pm, only on bright and sunny days.
>>
>> I'm starting to suspect a faulty fusible disconnect switch. Maybe the
>> blades are not making proper contact with the line side terminals.
>>
>> For the client who is having regular/frequent fuses blowing I plan to
>> replace the disconnect with a heavy-duty version or possibly get a 100A
>> disconnect with fuse reducers. I'm not sure which option would yield a
>> better test. I might also switch brands.
>>
>> Currently, we are using GE TG3222R. The fuses are Bussman FRN-R Time
>> Delay. I have to believe a heavy-duty switch would be less susceptible to
>> this, but maybe a higher rated one would be a better option. I'm not a fan
>> of fuse reducers, however.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 5:54 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The tripping breaker occurred at random times, even at night. No
>>> weather-related correlation.
>>>
>>> I have more research to do to see when this fuse issue is happening, but
>>> previous visits showed no water ingress. I'm not sure about temperature.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 8:51 PM Jay  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason
>>>>
>>>> One thought I have about the blowing fuse is to check it with a IR
>>>> tool.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect a poor connection of the fuse to holder which during higher
>>>> air temp is causing it to fail.
>>>> I’m assuming that the correct amp size and slow blow fuse Is installed
>>>> and that the wire connections are done correctly. But again an IR tool
>>>> during peak heat would be  a good test.
>>>>
>>>> About the enphase fix, wow what a head scratcher. But given that it’s
>>>> fixed it means that it’s not a short, but enough amps going through over
>>>> enough time to trip it. I wonder if a magnetic hydraulic vs thermal breaker
>>>> ( CBI  vs CH etc) would have worked?
>>>>
>>>> Is that breaker box ever in the sun?  Is there any Correlation between
>>>>  high ambient temperatures and tripping?
>>>>
>>>> It sure would keep me up at night t

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Gen Exercise Cycle

[Jason Szumlanski]

As someone who is struggling with a generator auto-start issue with a
competing product at the moment, I will second the motion to develop a
well-functioning logic for AGS. I have been disappointed with the logic on
some and confusing interface on others. I have not had the opportunity to
try out Sol-Ark yet, but conceptually I'm on board. But an integrated and
functional AGS system is a must.

I recently resorted to using the BMS of a LiPO battery to trigger generator
start because I could not get the inverter system to work well. I wasn't
willing to risk a $50k battery on the inverter's logic and functionality so
I put it all on the battery manufacturer to deal with it. That's not ideal
by any stretch.

Jason Szumlanski





On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 5:03 PM Chris Sparadeo 
wrote:

> Hi Dustin,
>
> I appreciate you checking in on this. I have to admit, after realizing the
> limited generator capabilities of the Sol-Ark, I was put off. I spoke with
> one of your support technicians who literally said “ I mean, we could have
> our engineers create programming to exercise generators, it’s just a matter
> of us spending the money to do so. It’s not a common ask and I doubt we
> will do it”.
>
> For fully off-grid clients, generator health is immeasurably important.
> The generator is often the last line of defense from a total system shut
> down. I’m hopeful that Sol-Ark will join the other leading off-grid
> manufacturers in the industry and incorporate a comprehensive generator
> function.
>
> Other than crucial AGS shortcomings, I really do love the Sol-Ark unit as
> well as your tech support. I am thankful that you have been so willing to
> accommodate change.
>
> Kindly,
>
> Chris
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:49 AM Dustin Douglas 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> I am not sure if I addressed this with the previous string but I did want
>> to mention that we are looking add different features for the generators.
>> One of these is adding the ability to exercise the generators, especially
>> with ones that have the feature disable if the two-wire start is used. We
>> are always trying to make it more effective for customers and installers
>> and this is a feature we have been wanting to add for the generator
>> applications.
>>
>>
>> Thank you and have a blessed day,
>>
>> Dustin Douglas
>>
>> Sol Ark Engineering Support
>>
>> (972) 575-8875 x 108
>> www.sol-ark.com
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1e9c8ed761fff68c4d7e8f980857be1e0d02bd78?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sol-ark.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=861274b3a9551e24>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Wed, 11 Nov 2020 10:07:24 -0600 *Chris Sparadeo
>> >* wrote 
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> According to Sol-Ark tech support, they do not currently have a
>> programmable exercise cycle for
>> its two-wire start function. When paired with a generator like a Generac
>> Ecogen (exercise cycle is automatically disabled when configured with two
>> wire start) this means that the only way to effectively run an exercise
>> cycle on your generator would be to do it manually. I am wondering if
>> anyone has run into this issue and if there are work arounds? Kind of a
>> bummer and my first and only negative experience with Sol-Ark thus far.
>>
>> Kindly,
>>
>> Chris Sparadeo
>> --
>> Chris Sparadeo
>>
>>
>> C_802-369-4458
>> H_802-728-3059
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/18d41d3fcb5fe5bcae376af5b9ad1ea7e9c41e51?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=722249917b6f3d03>
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d0a9947933cf6fb8ea8743bc1f6758ef06f228a7?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=04963e4451567850>
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/1dafe984ff929cab7fb0894bd759a4f47c69011e?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=04418d2424f1645c>
>>
>> List ru

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase intermittent fuse trippjng

[Jason Szumlanski]

Very interesting, Jay. The Bussman curve I just looked up is very similar.

If that is the sole issue then replacing the disconnect alone with an HD
version may not solve the problem. The better corrective action may be
increasing the fuse rating and the wire size accordingly. However, since
this is a 60A disconnect fused at 60A, that would require going to a 100A
disconnect. I suppose increasing one wire size to #4 and using 80A fuses in
a 100A disconnect may do the trick.

Now I'm conflicted. I don't know for certain whether direct sunlight is the
primary issue since this happens on west walls under 18-inch eaves around
1:30pm (an hour after solar noon). My issue could still be a faulty or
poorly designed switch.






On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 1:51 PM jay  wrote:

> I looked up on the eaton site and found this information.  Page 6, its a
> temperature derate curve, which I think is your problem.
>
> In short, at 160F, for a slow blow fuse it is derated 20%.
> At 176f its  25% derated.
>
> I couldn’t find any fuses that have a high temp rating.
>
> jay
>
>
> https://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electrical/application-notes/powr-gard-technical-application-guide.pdf
> 
>
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2020, at 8:19 AM, Ken Schaal  wrote:
>
> From my experience with reflective roofs galvanized quickly ages becoming
> less reflective! White is best aluminum paint next.
> Ken Schaal
> CommonWealth Solar
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2020, 9:17 AM frenergy  wrote:
>
>> This is a very timely discussion for us also as we have many
>> Midnight MNPV6 discos in the sun.  Though we're careful about tightening
>> wire landings, using contact cleaner for the fuses and fuse holders, some
>> installs seem to get hotter than others.  We just started making a very
>> simple sheet metal heat shield of sorts spaced away from the face of the
>> disco for ventilation which keeps direct sun off the "face" of the disco.
>> We don't paint this shield to give the galvanized surface a chance to
>> reflect the IR.
>>
>> Its a retro which we've covered the cost for to prevent
>> callbacks for blown (cooked?) fuses. I haven't done any before and after
>> temp checks but I know from a long history of this kind of work that temps
>> inside that disco will be substantially lower. They haven't been out in the
>> field long enough to get any data.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> Bill Battagin, Owner
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> 530.284.7849
>> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net 
>> 
>>
>> On 11/18/2020 5:13 PM, Ray wrote:
>>
>> What is the brand and model of the disconnect? Temp ratings of the
>> terminals?  I've definitely had fuse holders not make good contact with the
>> fuses and burn the fuses at one end, instead of in the middle.  Have you
>> looked at it with a Thermal imaging camera when its operating to see if its
>> hot on one end of the fuse?
>>
>> Second, depending on the temperature it would be hitting inside the
>> enclosure in the sun, you could be exceeding the rating of the #6
>> conductor.  Assuming terminals rated at 75C, then from 310.16, a #6 is
>> rated 65 A, but derate for temperature of 114F inside the enclosure gets
>> you to .82 x 65 = 53.3, which is a bit less than the 54.45 that Dave just
>> calculated for continuous duty.
>>
>> What color is the disconnect painted?  any chance of painting it white?
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 11/18/20 4:16 PM, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>>
>> Jason,
>> Bright sunny days, disconnect on the west side of house, maybe in the
>> sun? 43.56A * 1.25 for continuous duty = 54.45A. If these disconnects are
>> also baking in the sun, maybe the extra ambient heat is enough to push it
>> over the edge? Just a thought.
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>>
>> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
>> www.taitem.com
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Direct sales- Sol-Ark

[Jason Szumlanski]

Consumers can buy a Sol-Ark prewired inverter from AltE (among other
brands). That is probably what this person is referring to - not buying
direct from Sol-Ark, but an online wholesaler. I see these kinds of
requests frequently. If Sol-Ark is doing direct sales, that would be a
strange decision.

That said, I think everyone just needs to make a decision whether they will
install components purchased elsewhere and stick to it. I decided long ago
that I would consult on DIY projects but not offer up labor or my license
to help people who want to save a few bucks. And consulting gigs are not a
perpetual offer to provide middle of the night help when the lights go
dark. What usually happens is consumers hire Joe the Electrician to install
things after they get my rates. Then they get in over their head and call
me in desperation. Ugh.

Jason Szumlanski




On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 3:47 PM Jeremy Coxon 
wrote:

> While I have heard a lot of good comments re: Sol-Ark on this forum, we
> have not yet used them for our installs.  I have been considering trying
> them on a test system in our shop, but something just came across my email
> in the form of a NABCEP referral that gives me considerable pause.  I’ll
> just paste the text and remove the contact info and await responses:
>
> “ I am in the process of purchasing a solar array with battery back up
> from sol-ark. I am looking to get a quote and arrange for someone to
> install/connect the array. Thank you, name removed”
>
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP
> Certified MWBE
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/d7ecb536307a625e3dca0a330f1c6944b7984658?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=cc50368efe366b5b>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/17481192161e9168e0a319ceb01bc972fcc16c13?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=674f8c45f4a33162>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/668d171ec92a60836ccfed3e758a7f35eb421fc8?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=95d10b12c4155610>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/24e8f10c1357a087ecbcc5ec3bb340c8fe331bf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=f68c2d98eb65f3bd>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/57d79341e09b5767cec5658556c66ceec331a4ac?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=130dace80c457df6>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P

[Jason Szumlanski]

Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in SMA
documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island?

Thanks,

Jason Szumlanski
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P

[Jason Szumlanski]

I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's
coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed
52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output
voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed
through on this terminal?

The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems overly
complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor coil
fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good for
a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection with
how critical the loads are.

I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient
enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the
same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a
nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough?

Jason




On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> I have done this with mercury displacement relays:
>
> https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/507c3cd242097f112c86a155d1e20d50857a422b?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdius.com%2Fmercury-relays%2Ftwo-pole-relays-contactors%2Ftwo-pole-100-amp&userId=1613865&signature=1f785f791758ce12>
>
> They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay.  They seem to work perfectly.
>
> Good luck
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in
>> SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/17da3db56895ddc360fdc714312bb15c810b3d9c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c48369ecaf4e553d>
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/194df01af7007a27cee95e424186cee92dfb90aa?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=b359cf98f4845669>
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a90c679cc6b08e0d8f9d077b1a0286cf0ac4450b?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c436e3437bcfefb9>
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6cad44ddc698382911f831e8f1c1dac0a8bcc288?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=4f7688074d106a23>
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/46eb9172fba39b9b7cf250fe1773ec71c148de8a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a916ce63ec434074>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/709f6cb68c9bbc03071cb9842f0296828f708159?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=fbe2717c33dde0b9>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/f2fb60bbff6e61e6d195e34d56d723dd6f26ad63?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=f68a2f06bcc591b8>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3147a7eacfc37ebda032d9848afdc4f2325e2fd7?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=0be6d941c

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P

[Jason Szumlanski]

Hi Mac,

Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V
because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more
to fail.

In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so
there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the
whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching
non-critical loads in a low battery situation.

It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery
Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a
small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but
it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I
think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to
do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not
recovered quite easily.

Jason



On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation mode
> is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other loads
> that you shed.  The various preservation modes can be complex, especially
> if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your strategy.
>
> You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your
> needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that.  Unfortunately, its just
> one more piece to fail...
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement
>> relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage
>> can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the
>> output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed
>> through on this terminal?
>>
>> The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems
>> overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor
>> coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good
>> for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection
>> with how critical the loads are.
>>
>> I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient
>> enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the
>> same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a
>> nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough?
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason,
>>>
>>> I have done this with mercury displacement relays:
>>>
>>> https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp
>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/ff30c111d75d78887f17a5ed3e3b04bfe2cd428a?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdius.com%2Fmercury-relays%2Ftwo-pole-relays-contactors%2Ftwo-pole-100-amp&userId=1613865&signature=0abdef13355136e0>
>>>
>>> They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay.  They seem to work perfectly.
>>>
>>> Good luck
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in
>>>> SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>> ___
>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>>
>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>>
>>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/dc696cbe05b3c1c168fc9a22231ca0ead130049f?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=faa967f05b00e2a4>
>>>>
>>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>>> the other:
>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/160c10c9d1db65c3677175394dcc82fd4994efb3?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=e6df768a86360ef9>
>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P

[Jason Szumlanski]

It's already built - 6 years old - I didn't do it. The new property owner
just purchased a very expensive battery bank and wants to protect it,
understandably, because she had problems with her generator not starting as
expected when not at the property. It was suggested by the original
installer to install a load shedding contactor as the manual suggests
(albeit in an opaque manner). I just can't seem to wrap my head around why
this is a good idea. The integrated battery protection mode should handle
this function. A contactor (or series of relays and a contactor) carries
too much risk of failure that could result in another problem for the owner
altogether. I understand protecting the battery, but the cure can't be
worse than the disease. I'm looking for a balanced approach, which I
believe is to just implement the BPM unless I'm missing some deficiency in
that strategy.

The system worked great in an AC coupled configuration until the generator
started becoming unreliable. In Florida I like AC coupling in a scenario
like this where the most challenging load is in the summer, essentially
concurrent with peak sunlight (air conditioning). However, I have been
looking at trying out a Sol-Ark as soon as the opportunity arises with a
combination of DC and AC coupling. With no separate charge controller
involved, it becomes much less complicated and you get the best of both
worlds in theory.

Jason





On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 3:36 PM Tump  wrote:

> IF this system has yet to be built I would STRONGLY suggest that AC
> coupling is NOT considered. IF it is them i would consider HV CC DC
> coupling.
> T
>
> On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Mac,
>
> Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V
> because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more
> to fail.
>
> In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so
> there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the
> whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching
> non-critical loads in a low battery situation.
>
> It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery
> Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a
> small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but
> it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I
> think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to
> do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not
> recovered quite easily.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
>> Hi Jason,
>>
>> The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation
>> mode is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other
>> loads that you shed.  The various preservation modes can be complex,
>> especially if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your
>> strategy.
>>
>> You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your
>> needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that.  Unfortunately, its just
>> one more piece to fail...
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:13 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement
>>> relay's coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage
>>> can exceed 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the
>>> output voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed
>>> through on this terminal?
>>>
>>> The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems
>>> overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor
>>> coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good
>>> for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection
>>> with how critical the loads are.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't
>>> sufficient enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does
>>> effectively the same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the
>>> load and that is a nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't
>>> BPM enough?
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jason,
>&

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P

[Jason Szumlanski]

No, I would not use a Sol-Ark unless it was redundant, as in two paralleled
for AC output. I agree with you.

That's the other advantage of AC Coupling in a dual Sol-Ark configuration.
If done right the "extra" AC coupled PV can be usable in the event of a
single inverter failure (to an extent). But I don't have enough experience
with it to know for sure if this is a viable option.

Jason




On Thu, Jan 21, 2021, 5:34 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> The downside of an all-in one, that may be acceptable for grid, is in a
> failure an all-in-one becomes unusable unless there is a spare. Even with
> one it is often a bigger job to deal with. This was my feedback to
> Schneider when they were looking into this 5 years back. I know they made
> the right decision for offgrid.[image: Wink]
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 16:05:44 -0500, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> It's already built - 6 years old - I didn't do it. The new property owner
> just purchased a very expensive battery bank and wants to protect it,
> understandably, because she had problems with her generator not starting as
> expected when not at the property. It was suggested by the original
> installer to install a load shedding contactor as the manual suggests
> (albeit in an opaque manner). I just can't seem to wrap my head around why
> this is a good idea. The integrated battery protection mode should handle
> this function. A contactor (or series of relays and a contactor) carries
> too much risk of failure that could result in another problem for the owner
> altogether. I understand protecting the battery, but the cure can't be
> worse than the disease. I'm looking for a balanced approach, which I
> believe is to just implement the BPM unless I'm missing some deficiency in
> that strategy.
>
> The system worked great in an AC coupled configuration until the generator
> started becoming unreliable. In Florida I like AC coupling in a scenario
> like this where the most challenging load is in the summer, essentially
> concurrent with peak sunlight (air conditioning). However, I have been
> looking at trying out a Sol-Ark as soon as the opportunity arises with a
> combination of DC and AC coupling. With no separate charge controller
> involved, it becomes much less complicated and you get the best of both
> worlds in theory.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 3:36 PM Tump  wrote:
>
>> IF this system has yet to be built I would STRONGLY suggest that AC
>> coupling is NOT considered. IF it is them i would consider HV CC DC
>> coupling.
>> T
>>
>> On Jan 21, 2021, at 3:15 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Mac,
>>
>> Yes, I considered using a pilot relay - it makes sense to run it on 120V
>> because relays are readily available. I had the exact same concern - more
>> to fail.
>>
>> In this scenario, the inverter/battery room is remote from the house so
>> there is only one load I can switch easily with a contactor, and that's the
>> whole house load. Otherwise, I would definitely consider switching
>> non-critical loads in a low battery situation.
>>
>> It just seems prudent enough to use the integrated Battery
>> Preservation Mode (BPM), even in this AC coupled system. I considered a
>> small DC array to charge the batteries in a heavily depleted situation, but
>> it's a 60kWh battery so I would need a pretty substantial "backup" array I
>> think. It does not seem like a reasonable solution. I would expect BPM to
>> do it's job and keep the batteries from reaching a state that they are not
>> recovered quite easily.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 2:37 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jason,
>>>
>>> The only reason to load shed, without using the internal preservation
>>> mode is if you have certain loads you'd like to keep on longer than other
>>> loads that you shed.  The various preservation modes can be complex,
>>> especially if you are AC coupled, so you really have to think through your
>>> strategy.
>>>
>>> You can always use a pilot relay, with a coil rating that suits your
>>> needs, and then feed the 100A contactor with that.  Unfortunately, its just
&

Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA Load Shedding Contactor 100A, 2P

[Jason Szumlanski]

That is a potential solution, but if SMA is recommending load shedding
contactors, shouldn't they supply a device or kit to implement this? Or at
least specify products or at a bare minimum provide better documentation on
how and why to implement it.

I still don't understand why it's recommended with Battery Protection Mode
providing essentially the same function, unless you are trying to shed a
subset of loads.

Jason


On Fri, Jan 22, 2021, 3:24 PM  wrote:

> Use series resistors around the coil.
> ---
>
>
>
> On 2021-01-21 13:59, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> I just learned from the manufacturer that the mercury displacement relay's
> coil is rated for 43.2 to 52.80V. Obviously, the battery voltage can exceed
> 52.8 pretty significantly. Does the Sunny Island regulate the output
> voltage on this relay to 48V or is the actual battery voltage passed
> through on this terminal?
>
> The more I read about this load shedding strategy, the more it seems
> overly complicated. It's also another thing to fail. If the N.O. contactor
> coil fails, the loads to the house are going to lose power. That's not good
> for a remote installation. I guess you have to weigh battery protection
> with how critical the loads are.
>
> I'm wondering why the internal Battery Preservation Mode isn't sufficient
> enough. What's the purpose of load shedding if the BPM does effectively the
> same thing. I can see perhaps shedding some parts of the load and that is a
> nice feature, but to protect the batteries, why isn't BPM enough?
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 8:48 PM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
> Hi Jason,
>
> I have done this with mercury displacement relays:
>
> https://www.mdius.com/mercury-relays/two-pole-relays-contactors/two-pole-100-amp
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/507c3cd242097f112c86a155d1e20d50857a422b?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdius.com%2Fmercury-relays%2Ftwo-pole-relays-contactors%2Ftwo-pole-100-amp&userId=1613865&signature=1f785f791758ce12>
>
> They do have a 100A 2P 48V coil relay.  They seem to work perfectly.
>
> Good luck
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2021 at 2:51 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know where I can get a load shedding contactor described in
> SMA documentation for use with a multi-function relay in a Sunny Island?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/17da3db56895ddc360fdc714312bb15c810b3d9c?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c48369ecaf4e553d>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/194df01af7007a27cee95e424186cee92dfb90aa?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=b359cf98f4845669>
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/a90c679cc6b08e0d8f9d077b1a0286cf0ac4450b?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=c436e3437bcfefb9>
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/6cad44ddc698382911f831e8f1c1dac0a8bcc288?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=4f7688074d106a23>
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/46eb9172fba39b9b7cf250fe1773ec71c148de8a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a916ce63ec434074>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/709f6cb68c9bbc03071cb9842f0296828f708159?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=fbe2717c33dde0b9>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> h

[RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark

[Jason Szumlanski]

For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you recommend? I
need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop
communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important
consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla
is tough with some of these ugly beasts.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are
mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with
disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery
systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26
requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are
proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick
out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches
deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great
places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as
problematic?

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment

[Jason Szumlanski]

I had another battery manufacturer's BMS contactor weld shut due to an
inrush current problem with another brand of inverter. That was "fun." It
seems strange that this issue of cap loading hasn't been addressed.
Hopefully it will be.

To clarify the SOC not drifting... Are you saying in an off-grid system you
can reliably use the Sol-Ark SOC to trigger generator start and charging
parameters without causing discrepancies in SOC on the battery meter itself
and balancing is not a problem? If so, I'm comfortable with that I think.

Jason




On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 3:45 PM Jeff Clearwater 
wrote:

> Hey Jason,
>
> I've installed a few systems now using Fortress eVaults.  I like them as
> they are a nice 18.5 KW increment and the BMS seems hardy - nice interface
> screen showing SOC on each battery.
>
> However, call Fortress and discuss the status of their closed loop
> communications (and talk to Sol-Ark about it too).  The tech at Fortress
> told me that less than 4 eVaults the closed loop communication is more
> trouble than it's worth between batteries.  That appears to be because they
> simply have not employed a soft-start resistor and the batteries shut down
> when exposed to cap loading during inverter start-up.  They said relying on
> the individual battery BMSs works fine.  I've found that to be true so far
> - no drift in SOC from battery and Sol-Ark.
>
> Their eFlex system is supposed to be totally closed loop communication
> between batts and with a Sol-Ark.  It's a bit of a small increment for
> large systems but may be worth it.
>
> I imagine they will offer an upgrade for eVaults or a new model soon with
> full closed loop.  Sol-Ark tech said they were still working with them on
> that.
>
> Hope that helps!
>
> Best,
>
> Jeff
>
> Jason Szumlanski 
> January 31, 2021 at 11:27 AM
> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are
> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with
> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery
> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26
> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are
> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick
> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches
> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great
> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as
> problematic?
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with the
exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the
enclosure for which the working space applies.

For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and
countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors
around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it.

I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure
below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book
it seems like a violation.

Jason


On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer  wrote:

>l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or
> understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in
> the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above
> blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an
> enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries
> further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are
> required for the "system" to operate they are necessary.
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are
>> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with
>> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery
>> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26
>> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are
>> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick
>> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches
>> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great
>> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as
>> problematic?
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment

[Jason Szumlanski]

100kWh/day of consumption is pretty typical during hurricane season in
Florida for the type of client that can afford battery backup and enough PV
to keep the frozen margarita blender going. My clients don't want to change
their lifestyle. After all, they don't have to with a whole house
generator. Why would they with solar/battery. Even 60kWh is a tough ask to
get through the night with 85F nightime ambient and 95% humidity in August.

Telling a grid-tied client that wants whole home backup with solar/ battery
that they still need a backup generator is a non-starter. So we need really
big batteries here (and a lot of roof space). Some of the new battery
players just don't get that. I won't name names, but 40kWh or less max
parallel capacity just isn't marketable here.

Jason


On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:59 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> You were asking for 60KWH of storage, it has to go somewhere and fit. Too
> me, that is a ridiculous amount of storage and sounds like someone with
> an all electric kitchen and laundry, 4 ton ac units, +++.
>
> The system pix attached can add 20 of these 6.7 KWH useable AES batteries,
> but much easier to choose the right appliances.
>
> I realize that I am assuming here, I do get requests like that so do not
> take this wrong!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sun, 31 Jan 2021 14:27:48 -0500, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are
> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with
> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery
> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26
> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are
> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick
> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches
> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great
> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as
> problematic?
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Best LiPO Battery for Sol-Ark

[Jason Szumlanski]

That sounds interesting. But I see Simpliphi now has a preconfigured
Sol-Ark system with the inverter mounted in thier AcceESS enclosure from
the factory, not to mention preprogrammed for the number of batteries
purchased for the system. If I were to go with Simpliphi I might lean
toward this solution unless there are some downsides I'm missing.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:59 PM MDElectricSolar 
wrote:

> I’m using Simpliphi inside an outback battery box, very nice looking
> package.
>
> Michael D Nelson
> MD Electric & Solar, Inc.
> 707-684-0064 mobile
> 707-884-1862 office
> www.mdelectricsolar.com
> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2021, at 12:05 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
> 
> Blue planet has BMS integration with solar is a very stable product with
> the best warranty
> Jerry
>
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 11:25 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> For those of you installing Sol-Arks, what LiPO battery do you recommend?
>> I need something scalable to at least 60kWh and with closed-loop
>> communication to the inverters. And cost is always an important
>> consideration. Finally, something that looks pretty - competing with Tesla
>> is tough with some of these ugly beasts.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Energy Storage and Working Spaces for Other Equipment

[Jason Szumlanski]

True, but batteries that require service have their own working space
requirements. I am referring specifically to batteries that are not
service.

I would have no problem working safely on a panelboard above Powerwalls
stacked 3 deep, but I recognize that it is a violation nonetheless. I like
the idea of building out the wall.



On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 1:28 AM Ray  wrote:

> This isn't just a Li+ issue, this has been a problem going all the way
> back to the 90s.  Basically many AHJs don't catch it, but its still a
> violation.  We either keep the battery cabinet shallow, or we put the
> battery cabinet to the side.   Just use some common sense, if you are
> having to lean awkwardly over or around something to get to the breakers,
> its probably a violation.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 1/31/21 5:55 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> I'm reading that the working space must be down to the floor/grade with
> the exception of other equipment extending up to 6 inches deeper than the
> enclosure for which the working space applies.
>
> For example, technically you can't put a 32 inch deep base cabinet and
> countertop below a load center. I see it all the time, but inspectors
> around here in some jurisdictions will not allow it.
>
> I seriously doubt I would be flagged for a 24 inch deep battery enclosure
> below a 12 inch deep inverter with integrated disconnects, but by the book
> it seems like a violation.
>
> Jason
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 5:38 PM Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>>l dont know that this NEC code applies in the way you are reading or
>> understanding it, I do see where foreign components are restricted with in
>> the space. We have systems with two or three outback radians above
>> blueplanet batteries and have not seen an issue. The BPE's are in an
>> enclosed cabinet fire approved and protected from shock, putting batteries
>> further away will create space issues. Since all of these components are
>> required for the "system" to operate they are necessary.
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Jason Szumlanski <
>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm seeing a lot of pictures of LiPO battery systems and people are
>>> mounting equipment above them like load centers, inverters with
>>> disconnects, and other serviceable enclosures. Some of these battery
>>> systems are 24 inches deep or more. This seems to violate NEC 110.26
>>> requirements for the other serviceable equipment, but the pictures are
>>> proudly displayed as models of success. Even slender Tesla Powerwalls stick
>>> out significantly when stacked 2 or 3 deep and would be more than 6 inches
>>> deeper than a standard load center. Sure, the battery cabinets make great
>>> places to rest tools while working, but does anyone else see this as
>>> problematic?
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>> the other:
>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-w

Re: [RE-wrenches] fortress power question

[Jason Szumlanski]

I think this was mentioned by others, but Fortress confirmed to me today
that closed loop only works with one or two evault batteries with Sol-Ark.
More than that and communications breaks down. They're working on a fix,
but they told me that there are no guarantees. They could not give me a
date. It sounded like it was a hardware fix and existing batteries would
not be upgradable.

Jason

On Mon, Feb 1, 2021, 2:22 PM Chris Sparadeo 
wrote:

> Hi Jay,
>
> Yes, when installed in a closed loop configuration, the Sol Ark uses the
> SOC% provided by the BMS...which can be used to control the AGS.
>
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 1:58 PM Jay  wrote:
>
>> Thx Chris.
>>
>> Does the sol ark use the % info from the batteries for ags operation?
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2021, at 10:10 AM, Chris Sparadeo 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Jay,
>>
>> I have installed the eFlex paired with Sol Ark and it was very straight
>> forward. You need to make a modified RJ45 cable, but other than that, it’s
>> pretty much plug and play. I believe that Fortress is still working on
>> their WiFi monitoring for the eFlex...They say the eVault will be closed
>> loop by Q2.
>>
>> -Chris
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
>> offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Jay,
>>>
>>> I worked with them on the XW to close the loop. They did get it working
>>> with Eflex and it is easy to commission. However, they were not able to
>>> get
>>> the conext insight data out to the cloud totally implemented. Until they
>>> prove that to me, I will stay with Discover AES. The site at the bottom
>>> showing state of charge is an AES battery BTW.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>>
>>> On Mon, 1 Feb 2021 08:43:03 -0700, jay  wrote:
>>> > Some questions to those installing  fortress power.
>>> >
>>> > 1. has anyone installed them in a closed loop comm and if so, which
>>> > inverter
>>> >
>>> > 2. it doesn’t appear that there is any online or app for
>>> > communication/monitoring?
>>> >
>>> > thx
>>> > jay
>>> > ___
>>> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>> >
>>> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> >
>>> > Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>> >
>>> > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>> the
>>> > other:
>>> > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>> >
>>> > List rules & etiquette:
>>> > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>> >
>>> > Check out or update participant bios:
>>> > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>> the other:
>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> List rules & etiquette:
>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>>
>>> Check out or update participant bios:
>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> --
>> Chris Sparadeo
>>
>>
>> C_802-369-4458
>> H_802-728-3059
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> --
> Chris Sparadeo
>
>
> C_802-369-4458
> H_802-728-3059
> ___

Re: [RE-wrenches] Just saw this and thought it worth sharing

[Jason Szumlanski]

Here is Enphase's answer (or maybe Fronius was answering Enphase):

https://enphase.com/en-us/support/arc-fault-demonstration

Also, their literature suggests that the risk of a DC arc fault occuring is
far lower due to there being much less DC cabling exposed on the roof. With
no long DC home runs, that would obviously lower the probability of an
occurrence. I see where they are coming from, but we're talking about
severity here, not probability.

I have seen a few melted MC4 connectors at the panel to microinverter
connection. The results seem to support Enphase's video where the arc is
small and possibly intermittent, melting a hole in the connector housing,
but falling short of an exposed flame.

I think there is a twofold response that a microinverter manufacturer would
make. The probability of DC Arc fault is reduced and severity is lower.
That's a strong argument.

Is anyone aware of a significant fire in a microinverter system caused by a
DC arc fault? I assume there are anecdotes out there, but I haven't heard
of any. On the flip side, I've seen some pretty gnarled DC conductor
bundles melted together on string inverter systems with burned modules
above them.

That said, I would probably support more safety on the DC side of
microinverters. If AC modules weren't so darn expensive, I'd probably go
that direction. If PV DC leads were shorter I'd probably mount
microinverters to module frames. If integrated AFCI was available on
microinverters at a reasonable cost, that would be great.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


On Fri, Feb 5, 2021, 5:40 PM Jeremy Coxon 
wrote:

> Very interesting video, now I know Fronius is pointing fingers at Micro
> manufacturers but the demo seems to back up their proposal to scrap the 80V
> limit.  This is yet another reason we haven’t used many Micro’s on our
> systems.
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H3c9GbLhQhY&t=4s
>
>
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP
> Certified MWBE
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors

[Jason Szumlanski]

Sense is great. It does take a long time to learn appliances. Over a year
in and mine at home is still learning some loads. But it picked up the big
ones within a few months. Immediately you can see real time granular load
data and you can easily surmise what the larger loads are. I was able to
take action from day 1 to identify major drivers of my electricity use.

It also saved my septic pump. It was running 24/7 due to a faulty float
switch. I caught it after about 2 days when it alerted me that the device
was using more energy than usual. Because my pump didn't burn up the Sense
monitor paid for itself.

The only downside I see aside from the learning delay is that there isn't a
robust data export function. The whole web interface is a bit wonky. But
the app is pretty intuitive, gorgeous, and insightful.

I'm guessing it sends a lot of data to the web, so it might not be suitable
for satellite internet for those far off-grid locations.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 1:17 PM jay  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with
> solar option.
>
> There seem to be two basic types.
>
> Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such
> as Emporia Vue.  Which can do 16 circuits.
>
> Or
>
> ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense.
>
> I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say
> that it never seems to learn many of their appliances.
>
>
> Of course prices range from little to a lot.
>
> Any recommendations from the gallery?
>
> thx
>
> Jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] home energy monitors

[Jason Szumlanski]

I should also mention Dead simple installation.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 4:27 PM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> Sense is great. It does take a long time to learn appliances. Over a year
> in and mine at home is still learning some loads. But it picked up the big
> ones within a few months. Immediately you can see real time granular load
> data and you can easily surmise what the larger loads are. I was able to
> take action from day 1 to identify major drivers of my electricity use.
>
> It also saved my septic pump. It was running 24/7 due to a faulty float
> switch. I caught it after about 2 days when it alerted me that the device
> was using more energy than usual. Because my pump didn't burn up the Sense
> monitor paid for itself.
>
> The only downside I see aside from the learning delay is that there isn't
> a robust data export function. The whole web interface is a bit wonky. But
> the app is pretty intuitive, gorgeous, and insightful.
>
> I'm guessing it sends a lot of data to the web, so it might not be
> suitable for satellite internet for those far off-grid locations.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2021, 1:17 PM jay  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I’m wondering what you recommend for whole house energy monitors with
>> solar option.
>>
>> There seem to be two basic types.
>>
>> Ones that use actual sensors on a number of the larger load circuits such
>> as Emporia Vue.  Which can do 16 circuits.
>>
>> Or
>>
>> ones that use an a program to “learn” what the loads are such as Sense.
>>
>> I’ve read a number of reviews about the learning type and many people say
>> that it never seems to learn many of their appliances.
>>
>>
>> Of course prices range from little to a lot.
>>
>> Any recommendations from the gallery?
>>
>> thx
>>
>> Jay
>>
>> peltz power
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol ark 120v issues

[Jason Szumlanski]

Is anyone aware if this is alleviated with a parallel connected pair of
inverters? I'm not saying that is the right solution, but it might not
matter in a larger parallel connected system.

On Tue, Feb 9, 2021, 10:24 AM Jay  wrote:

> It is odd that the 12kw 20kw surge sol ark can’t run a 15 amp 120v air
> compressor
>
> I saw a you tube video from what appears to be a pretty well versed
> installer who mentioned that sol ark knows this is an issue and
> specifically mentioned that his small air compressor will shut his 12kw
> inverter down. He didn’t mention if there is a fix coming.
>
> I guess I’ll wait to buy one until they have that issue sorted out.
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] GVFX3524 fan replacement

[Jason Szumlanski]

Easy swap.

On Sun, Feb 14, 2021, 8:15 PM Ron Young  wrote:

> Hi Wrenches, I have a client with an Outback GVFX3524 inverter that has
> had a fan failure. I will check with Outback but thought I might get a head
> start here. Is this a field replaceable item? I know the boards are but not
> sure about the fan. Any info much appreciated, thanks.
>
> Ron
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Sketchup for Solar Shading Analysis

[Jason Szumlanski]

Is anyone else using Sketchup for quick and dirty (yet surprisingly
accurate) shading analyses?

If so, I would be interested in trading notes/tips. I'm particularly
interested in some rules of thumb regarding hard shading impacts during the
early- and late-day in percentage terms. Residential analyses are not worth
anything highly scientific for the average grid-tied client. Please contact
me off-list.

Here's the video output of an analysis I just whipped up for a client
concerned about the 2-story house just to the east of his.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/lxJygizGxq8
<https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/780ff277fb02d6b33f100e759a01b63a268cd734?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fembed%2FlxJygizGxq8&userId=1613865&signature=986b61f306e4c92f>

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] PV on north roof

[Jason Szumlanski]

We do it from time to time. Just run the numbers. Many clients demand 100%
offset and don't care about efficiency.

Resources:

https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/solar-electricity-output-based-on-tilt-and-orientation/

https://floridasolardesigngroup.com/can-i-put-solar-panels-on-my-north-roof-in-southwest-florida/

If your client is in SW Florida I'd be happy to help in any way I can.
Contact me off list.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group



On Sun, Feb 21, 2021, 4:00 PM Kirk Herander, VSE 
wrote:

> All,
>
> Apparently this is not necessarily a bad idea anymore (from what I recall
> some pv gurus saying a few years back), relevant to latitude and pitch of
> the roof. I have a client in Florida it might work for, and there in no
> room left on the ground or other roofs. Anyone have a resource or rules of
> thumb for such a thing?
>
> *Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *
>
> *Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*
>
> *Celebrating our 30th Anniversary 1991-2021!!*
>
> *www.vermont.solar*
> <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.vermontsolarnow.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C9f0330d75a244870112408d685311841%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636842843233477645&sdata=0NjyuKeQbEK6245SNnk8X4XnP9Q%2B%2BqtvcALkdDghvk4%3D&reserved=0>
>
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>
> 802.863.1202
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] What would you do/say?

[Jason Szumlanski]

Ditto to Ray and I would add that you have no idea how the batteries were
treated or mistreated. I would insist on replacing the batteries or having
a very clear and strong disclaimer that you take no responsibility for the
condition of the batteries or their longevity.

Unfortunately, I had a similar looking system in front of me on Monday and
the 48V battery bank was sitting at three volts. I could not evaluate the
Radian or the Mate which the customer reported not working properly prior
to the battery getting depleted. How are you supposed to work with
something like that? I can replace the battery, but it could open up a
whole can of worms with other equipment being inoperable.In fact, that is
likely the reason the batteries got depleted in the first place. These are
no win situations.

Jason

On Wed, Feb 24, 2021, 2:02 PM Ray  wrote:

> I concur with Dave: Delete and start over.  Its actually faster and
> cheaper than trying to figure out why they did things the way they did, and
> having callbacks where you discover more problems you didn't see the first
> time, etc.  I'll reuse as much of the stuff as I can, even cable, but that
> needs a full DC load center like an E Panel.
>
> Also as Dave said, once you touch it, you own it.  If they can't afford to
> have you redo it, then you can't afford to take it under your wing.  Time
> and materials is the way I do these, because you never know what else you
> might find on day 3 of the rebuild.  I've gotten to the point now, that I
> won't even take these on, unless we are providing a majority of new
> equipment:  Adding to the array, replacing the batteries, new inverter,
> switching to 48v, etc.
>
> Every compromise you get talked into now, you will regret later.  I've
> come back 10 years after, and had my techs say: " Who did this$#@%!"  and I
> had to hang my head in shame and explain how we were trying to work with
> what was there, blah, blah.  I will repeat: once you touch it, you own it.
> Your local reputation is represented in the work that you leave behind.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 2/24/21 1:43 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>
> Since it would not pass a home insurance or building department
> inspection, it would have to be start fresh. Once you get your hands on it,
> it is yours. Good Luck!
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Wed, 24 Feb 2021 13:13:57 -0500, Jeremy Coxon
>   wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm sure we're not alone in this so I thought I'd find out what you all do
> in these situations:  We were contacted by a person that wants us to repair
> their system.  I ask the standard questions you'd expect and also for
> pictures of their system.  Here's the pic (below).  My question is what
> would you say to this person?
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
> Vice President
> MWBE Certified
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & 
> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the 
> other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring

[Jason Szumlanski]

How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully
monitored it?

I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V
service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at
the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the
interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to
put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an
adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the
microinverters 300 feet away.

I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry about
getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate the
6-hour delay in data acquisition.

Thanks,

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring

[Jason Szumlanski]

I definitely considered this option. I would prefer to hardwire the envoy
in this case back at the house. I was pleased to hear another wrench
respond with a successful 350 ft distance. I will let you know how this
goes.

On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, 12:20 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:

> I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge
> internet to a remotely located array.
>
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
> -- Original message--
> *From: *Jason Szumlanski
> *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM
> *To: *RE-wrenches;
> *Cc: *
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring
>
> How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully
> monitored it?
>
> I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V
> service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at
> the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the
> interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to
> put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an
> adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the
> microinverters 300 feet away.
>
> I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry
> about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate
> the 6-hour delay in data acquisition.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring

[Jason Szumlanski]

I don't intend to run a grounded conductor (neutral) to the array location.
I should have been clearer about that. There will be no way to connect the
Envoy out there. That's mainly why I was looking for confirmation that it
will pick up microinverters over long wire distances. This saves me 600
feet of 1/0 wire.

Jason


On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 1:07 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Along what Glenn is saying - I have often used wireless radios to get wifi
> to the array. I used to use the Engenius ENH202 all the time and they were
> great, but last I checked the prices went up. I have recently gotten the TP
> Link CPE210. They are cheap, but not nearly as powerful. I was able to put
> the ENH202 in the middle of someone's house and generally aim it in the
> right direction and there would be great signal 500' away even through some
> trees. The TP link one needs a much better line of sight.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
> www.taitem.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/bbe96c49959ee282100e2bea9af1aaac1927265d?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taitem.com&userId=1613865&signature=2d0e42c1abf8382b>
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 12:20 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:
>
>> I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge
>> internet to a remotely located array.
>>
>> -Glenn
>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>>
>> -- Original message--
>> *From: *Jason Szumlanski
>> *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM
>> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>> *Cc: *
>> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring
>>
>> How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully
>> monitored it?
>>
>> I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V
>> service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at
>> the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the
>> interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to
>> put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an
>> adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the
>> microinverters 300 feet away.
>>
>> I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry
>> about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate
>> the 6-hour delay in data acquisition.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0aea1cf43e63561304dabd43510fea7392357eb5?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=23443ea80cd7eba4>
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/65974f917764699dbe0ba741bb12563c93200d84?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fre-wrenches%40lists.re-wrenches.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=243221be495c494a>
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/69f388ae6a36f4247cab37760f05751ecec1eba4?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Fpipermail%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=2e0efea14a77c6bc>
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/3a88d6dd4ba2917a30722d2146d57023ca82b35c?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.re-wrenches.org%2Fetiquette.htm&userId=1613865&signature=a422b42c37b24c6c>
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/bcb40a34176b3b1045fca83fb8e5fa9115724695?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.members.re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=62241432d208e5ae>
>>
>>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring

[Jason Szumlanski]

In 2000 I set up a 5 mile wi-fi link to my off-grid home in the Caribbean
with a product I think was called Smartbridges. I doubt they are around
anymore. Regardless, I was absolutely floored when it worked. I might have
cried. I was streaming a Sling TV device in the middle of nowhere on my
first off-grid system!

So it can definitely be done. The question is whether it is necessary to go
through the effort. I favor keeping the Envoy back at the house, primarily
to eliminate the neutral and also for the most reliable connectivity. I can
have the low voltage guys install Ethernet for this new home build.

Jason





On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 1:36 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> We are impressed with the Ubiquiti line of equipment for access points,
> stations, wifi extenders, and remotely manageable switches.  The Unifi
> system logs up and down time and will notify if there is a failure.  We
> have one RF link that is 5 miles long (it’s not a power system it’s for a
> community radio station, a volunteer hobby project).
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/715c171f275652ee0283e286b9dc6c33e471206b?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.millersolar.com%2F&userId=1613865&signature=7b5c9d3d5861c652>
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Dave Tedeyan
> *Sent:* Monday, March 1, 2021 10:08 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring
>
>
>
> Along what Glenn is saying - I have often used wireless radios to get wifi
> to the array. I used to use the Engenius ENH202 all the time and they were
> great, but last I checked the prices went up. I have recently gotten the TP
> Link CPE210. They are cheap, but not nearly as powerful. I was able to put
> the ENH202 in the middle of someone's house and generally aim it in the
> right direction and there would be great signal 500' away even through some
> trees. The TP link one needs a much better line of sight.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan, PE*
>
> Senior Engineer | Taitem Engineering, PC
>
> 110 South Albany Street | Ithaca, NY 14850
>
> o. *607.277.1118 x121*  f. 607.277.2119
>
> www.taitem.com
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/797c7adb5369c058b8cdb137cbdae86d5c76099e?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.taitem.com&userId=1613865&signature=1723a2aa217060ff>
>
>
>
> Solar • Sustainability • Energy • Design
>
> Certified B-Corporation since 2013
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 12:20 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:
>
> I have used a few different WiFi range extenders successfully to ge
> internet to a remotely located array.
>
>
>
> -Glenn
>
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>
>
>
> -- Original message--
>
> *From: *Jason Szumlanski
>
> *Date: *Mon, Mar 1, 2021 10:39 AM
>
> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>
> *Cc: *
>
> *Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ Envoy Distance for Monitoring
>
>
>
> How far has anyone ever put an IQ Envoy from an array and successfully
> monitored it?
>
>
>
> I am planning a ground mount that is 300 feet from a home with 12/240V
> service. The branch circuits will have an AC combiner panel on a rack at
> the array with 2 parallel sets of 4/0 Al conductors back to the
> interconnection point at the house in a meter/main combo. I was planning to
> put a breaker in the meter/main combo for the IQ Envoy inside an
> adjacent enclosure. I'm wondering if I will be successful in picking up the
> microinverters 300 feet away.
>
>
>
> I'd rather do this than locate that IQ Envoy near the array and worry
> about getting Internet out there. I know Cellular is an option, but I hate
> the 6-hour delay in data acquisition.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/4b57857bbe7aa44d4e0d60946670a3c50ad103a5?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=46ce034c268d1186>
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations

[Jason Szumlanski]

I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at
208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light
commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this?

Jason
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did
a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof
tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on
an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less
annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the
385W module.

Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+
on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is
identical for both inverters?

If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may
vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here
results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the
morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping
increase.

Jason Szumlanski



On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski <
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:

> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at
> 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light
> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this?
>
> Jason
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations

[Jason Szumlanski]

I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I wish
I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know there's
information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the time or
inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how accurate It is.

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay  wrote:

> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations
> around the country.
>
> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it
> out.
>
> Jay
> Peltz power.
>
> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did
> a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof
> tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on
> an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less
> annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the
> 385W module.
>
> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+
> on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is
> identical for both inverters?
>
> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may
> vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here
> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the
> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping
> increase.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at
>> 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light
>> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this?
>>
>> Jason
>>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations

[Jason Szumlanski]

Around here a 385W module on an IQ7+ rarely flatlines, even at optimal
orientation. I was concerned that a 420W module at 208V/290W max on an IQ7A
would start to be problematic, but PVWATTS disagrees.

On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 6:14 PM Chris Worcester 
wrote:

> There’s the inverter max output amps, that’s it. 290 watts for either the
> 7 a or 7+ on the 208 VAC, they’re equal for sure. So put on a 420 watt
> panel but don’t expect to make a bit more production midday, all you get is
> a bit quicker ramp up in the AM and  a bit longer 290w output in the
> evening. I’d put something in the 320 to 350 w range on these micros, max.
> We are in a cooler climate too maybe than most, around the Reno Tahoe area.
> I have LG 310’s on S280’s that are seeing flattening on the Enlighten
> output graphs midday now in the spring.
>
>
>
> Chris Worcester
>
> Solar Wind Works
>
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
>
> Cell 530-448-9692
>
> www.solarwindworks.com
>
> ch...@solarwindworks.com
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Jay
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 03, 2021 12:46 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations
>
>
>
> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and locations
> around the country.
>
>
>
> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it
> out.
>
>
>
> Jay
>
> Peltz power.
>
>
>
> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
>
> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I did
> a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial roof
> tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W module on
> an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1% less
> annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with the
> 385W module.
>
>
>
> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the IQ7+
> on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output current is
> identical for both inverters?
>
>
>
> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it may
> vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here
> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the
> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping
> increase.
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous at
> 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light
> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this?
>
>
>
> Jason
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] SMA Piggyback RS-485

[Jason Szumlanski]

Does anyone have two of these on the shelf that will work with both Sunny
Boys (SB9000TL-US-12) and Sunny Islands (SI6048-US-10)? If you're willing
to part with them I need a couple quickly.

Contact me off list please.
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase IQ7A 3 phase limitations

[Jason Szumlanski]

Mac Lewis was nice enough to run some Helioscope simulations for me (thank
you, Mac). The numbers were almost identical to PVWATTS in that per kW, you
get about 1% less energy yield with a 420W/IQ7A than a 385W/IQ7+ when
operating at 208Vac. Given that the IQ7A is more costly, and presumably the
higher powered modules will start off at a higher $/w cost, it probably
doesn't make sense to use the 420W/IQ7A on a commercial building, but the
energy yield differences were much smaller than I anticipated. On the flip
side, higher energy density is an obvious choice if maximum utilization of
the roof is more important than a small difference in ROI.

I'm still trying to get a definitive reason that Enphase lists the IQ7+ at
a constant 290W for 240/208 (1.21A/1.39A output currents, respectively),
but the IQ7A is rated at 349W for 240V and 290W for 208V (1.45A current for
both output voltages).

Jason






On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 8:36 PM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> I've never really trusted PVWatts on this. I just did a quick test using
> my location in the northeast, with all the standard values and then just
> changing the DC to AC ratio. It's telling me that a ratio of 1.5 is almost
> exactly the same as a ratio of 1, and that around 1.3 is best. You actually
> lose about 2% at 0.5 and about 8% production at a ratio of 2.
>
> So I can only conclude that either PVWatts does not have a great
> calculation, or the efficiency loss due to not running the inverter at
> rated power is worse than I assumed.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 6:14 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I've used that document many times when clients question the ratio. I
>> wish I knew exactly how the PVWATTS ratio calculation worked. I know
>> there's information on how this is all done, but I don't really have the
>> time or inclination to study it. I'm wondering if someone knows how
>> accurate It is.
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2021, 4:04 PM Jay  wrote:
>>
>>> Emphase has a white paper showing production vs module size and
>>> locations around the country.
>>>
>>> I don’t know if it’s more accurate than pv watts but you might check it
>>> out.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>> Peltz power.
>>>
>>> On Mar 3, 2021, at 12:13 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> I'm wondering how accurate the DC to AC ratio is when using PVWATTS. I
>>> did a quick PVWATTS analysis at my local area using a typical commercial
>>> roof tilt and found that using a 420W module on an IQ7A versus a 385W
>>> module on an IQ7+ yields almost identical results. The 420W module has 1%
>>> less annual production at to the 145% ratio compared to the 132% ratio with
>>> the 385W module.
>>>
>>> Given that, I can't imagine why anyone would use the IQ7A versus the
>>> IQ7+ on a 208V system. Why incur the additional cost if the AC output
>>> current is identical for both inverters?
>>>
>>> If PVWATTS is right, I guess it's a non-issue in my local area, but it
>>> may vary in other locations where clipping is more common. The heat here
>>> results in little clipping at a 132% ratio here, and I guess at 145% the
>>> morning and afternoon advantages largely outweigh the mid-day clipping
>>> increase.
>>>
>>> Jason Szumlanski
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 2, 2021 at 10:00 AM Jason Szumlanski <
>>> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was surprised to learn that the IQ7A is limited to 290 W continuous
>>>> at 208 volts. That pretty much puts Enphase out of the running for light
>>>> commercial jobs with new high-powered 72 cell panels. Any thoughts on this?
>>>>
>>>> Jason
>>>>
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/7da7959f16282241eb7bed4ab99c158691f0cfb6?url=http%3A%2F%2Flists.re-wrenches.org%2Foptions.cgi%2Fre-wrenches-re-wrenches.org&userId=1613865&signature=a625fec8d8b9603e>
>>>
>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try
>>> the other:
>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
&

Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer

[Jason Szumlanski]

Jeremy,

Are you saying the foam soles are great for metal roofs or are you talking
about the SteelWalker magnetic boots from Cougar Paws?

Jason

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:49 PM Jeremy Coxon 
wrote:

> To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that
> come in different densities.  I know of nothing more forgiving than foam.
> There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same
> principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles.  I have a pair of
> those, but forget the brand.  I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy.
> They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice
> skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
> Vice President
> MWBE Certified
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Protecting New Roofing during Summer

[Jason Szumlanski]

People say never walk on a wet metal roof, but many metal roofs up to 6 in
12 pitch are stickier when wet with vibram soles than when they dry. I find
this to be the case especially with new er Kynar finished roofs.

I wish I had a shoe closet in my truck sometimes.

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021, 7:34 PM Jeremy Coxon 
wrote:

> Foam soles for both asphalt and metal- we always use them on asphalt
> shingles over 5/12 for grip, also when outdoor temps hit 80’s for roof
> protection and on every metal roof for same reasons.  We get so much pollen
> here, the roofs turn yellow, so even a  2/12’s painted metal roof is like
> working on a kids slide - ya gotta hang on or your moving.  I’ve never
> tried any sort of magnetic boot, but now you’ve got my curiosity piqued.
> Spider-Man watch out!
>
> And yes that’s the name -Korkers.  They offer a few  different soles for
> different purposes - one of my guys was a fly fishing guide and had a pair
> that he used in streams with soles that were meant just for that purpose.
> The foam soles I use flake off pretty quickly IF you rotate your feel on
> asphalt, so for me it sort of taught me to be extra gentle as I move
> around- sort of in that ‘Grasshopper’ kind of way.
>
> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP
> Certified MWBE
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 9, 2021, at 6:47 PM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Jeremy,
>
> Are you saying the foam soles are great for metal roofs or are you talking
> about the SteelWalker magnetic boots from Cougar Paws?
>
> Jason
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 5:49 PM Jeremy Coxon 
> wrote:
>
>> To answer your question August - they have replaceable foam soles that
>> come in different densities.  I know of nothing more forgiving than foam.
>> There’s another brand that sells a strap on overshoe which uses the same
>> principle - velcro bottom with different foam soles.  I have a pair of
>> those, but forget the brand.  I’m not a huge fan because they’re so heavy.
>> They are awesome for metal roofs when the pollen makes walking like ice
>> skating, but we prefer cougar paws overall.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Jeremy Coxon NABCEP # 091308-21
>> Vice President
>> MWBE Certified
>> 
>>
>> ___
>>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream

[Jason Szumlanski]

Butyl tape is great when sandwiched between a metal roof and another
material. Chemlink m1 also sticks underwater. Geocel 4500 is great, but it
lacks some ASTM certifications required for use on roofing, so we don't use
it anymore. I expect it would work well in this application, however.

You might call the guys at nuCamp. I just purchased one of their trailers
and they have a flexible solar panel stuck to the roof that appears to be
very solidly adhered with no mechanical fasteners.


On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 2:54 PM Dana Orzel  wrote:

> I have done 2 RVs with these & Used Urethane roof flashing adhesive to
> attach, very Liberally! Rave reviews from the owner since. Good Product!
>
> 2 Thumbs up
>
>
>
> Just got turned on to: Geocell 4500 adhesive can be applied & cures even
> under water. Found it online. Excellent product even sticks to EDPM.
>
>
>
>
>
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
>
> *C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
> *
>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
>
> NABCEP # 051112-136   www.greatsolarworks.com
>
> *"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  *
>
> *P* Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Andrew Perkins
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 24, 2021 11:49 AM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Flexible panel install on airstream
>
>
>
> Hey Wrenches,
>
>Here to get some advice on mounting options for some Renogy
> flexible panels on an airstream. I usually say no to any rvs but they are
> friends of the owner so it's in my lap now. The panels have 6 eyelets on
> them for mounting so I was thinking of using some sikaflex adhesive for the
> pack of the panels and then some blind rivets for the eyelets with small
> piece of butyl between the the bottom of the eyelet and the roof of the
> airstream to seal the holes. Anyone done these before or have any advise?
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces

[Jason Szumlanski]

I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due
to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48
inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of
the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall
under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not
likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher,
say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing
requirements)?

Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the
practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade?

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Desing Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] 54-Cell Solar Modules

[Jason Szumlanski]

I'm looking for two 54-cell modules, highest power possible, for a mobile
solar project requiring modules under 61 inches long. If you know where I
can get these, please let me know off-list.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces

[Jason Szumlanski]

Not an option.  Limited garage space.

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 3:01 AM Chris Worcester 
wrote:

> Can you add a catwalk with handrails in front of it for maintenance?
>
>
>
> Chris Worcester
> ch...@solarwindworks.com
> 530-448-9692
>
> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9.
>
>
> ---- Original message 
> From: Jason Szumlanski 
> Date: 3/26/21 12:41 PM (GMT-08:00)
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces
>
> I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due
> to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48
> inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of
> the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall
> under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not
> likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher,
> say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing
> requirements)?
>
> Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the
> practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade?
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Desing Group
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries and Working Spaces

[Jason Szumlanski]

That's problematic I think. I guess the next question would be, if I need
to keep this breaker at 6'7", I don't see that being accessible be someone
standing in front of it anyway without a portable ladder, so what height IS
acceptable?

Also, maybe I don't need to mount the whole battery above the flood level.
Maybe just exposed live parts need to be that high. If that's the case,
would that just be the tops?

Jason

On Fri, Mar 26, 2021, 7:13 PM Chris Sparadeo  wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> There is a 250A breaker located inside a compartment on the top of the
> unit. Keeping that reasonably accessible would be important.
>
> Also, just out of curiosity, how are you planning of getting these battery
> cabinets onto their 4’ platform? Forklift? Ramp?
>
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
>> I am planning a battery backup system using Fortress 18.5kWh eVaults. Due
>> to flood level requirements, these are going to need to be mounted about 48
>> inches above the garage floor on a shelf/platform. That puts the tops of
>> the battery cabinets well above 6'7". But I believe that these do not fall
>> under the working space requirements of NEC 110.26 since they are not
>> likely to require maintenance. In fact, could these be mounted even higher,
>> say way up near the 14' ceiling (subject to manufacturer spacing
>> requirements)?
>>
>> Can anyone see any code problems with this approach, putting aside the
>> practical problems with mounting heavy battery cabinets well above grade?
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Desing Group
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out or update participant bios:
>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> --
>
> *Chris Sparadeo*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional **® **# 042919-015652*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector **®** # 052920-015652 *
>
> Catamount Solar, LLC
>
> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060
>
> C_(802) 369-4458
>
> O_(802) 728-3600
>
> www.CatamountSolar.com <http://www.catamountsolar.com/>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter

[Jason Szumlanski]

I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads
that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is
curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe
method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would
be accomplished. It's an interesting question.

I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based
solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party
listing/certification.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White  wrote:

> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but
> you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter
> can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to
> producing more than the loads require.
>
> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter
> manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge
> and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Will
>
>
> --
> *Will White*
> Curriculum Developer
>
>
> e: w...@solarenergy.org
> w: www.solarenergy.org
> p: 802-272-3092
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> # 093006-34
> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
> <http://solarenergy.org/donate>.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan  wrote:
>
>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that
>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power
>> to the grid.  That may change but that is how it stands now.  The
>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or
>> even give excess power away.  Do any of you have any experience setting
>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid
>> under any circumstances?  Just wondering before I dig any deeper if
>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks,
>>
>> Greg Egan
>> Remote Power Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter

[Jason Szumlanski]

Oh, for certain. Enphase has specific grid profiles (software) to
accommodate utilities with zero export rules. It's my understanding that
this is widely accepted. Other manufacturers support zero export, too. Even
battery manufacturers are in on this, like Tesla Powerwalls can have zero
export profiles or sell back stored energy to the grid for time-of-use and
smart grid purposes.

Jason



On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 11:04 AM frenergy  wrote:

> On the other hand, utilities *have* accepted inverters to shut-off power
> production into the grid if the grid fails via, I assume, software and/or
> electro-mechanical means.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.net 
> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/8d5670d85d42db80b5299de925467fc19f3e163a?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.frenergy.net&userId=1613865&signature=ee5367a4466e2a21>
>
> On 3/31/2021 4:35 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>
> I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads
> that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is
> curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe
> method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would
> be accomplished. It's an interesting question.
>
> I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based
> solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party
> listing/certification.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White  wrote:
>
>> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but
>> you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter
>> can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to
>> producing more than the loads require.
>>
>> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter
>> manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge
>> and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Will
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Will White*
>> Curriculum Developer
>>
>>
>> e: w...@solarenergy.org
>> w: www.solarenergy.org
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/de1018063eefd337466f4696e3cd057d3ff30ab5?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarenergy.org%2F&userId=1613865&signature=5c7c169843f2b59f>
>>
>> p: 802-272-3092
>>
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> # 093006-34
>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/0aaf5baa6b2b13c1ecb405e65db7cf9a8eab0cce?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsolarenergy.org%2Fdonate&userId=1613865&signature=c97186f5a55083c7>
>> .
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that
>>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power
>>> to the grid.  That may change but that is how it stands now.  The
>>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or
>>> even give excess power away.  Do any of you have any experience setting
>>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid
>>> under any circumstances?  Just wondering before I dig any deeper if
>>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks,
>>>
>>> Greg Egan
>>> Remote Power Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter

[Jason Szumlanski]

Does UL1741 cover zero sell? I wasn't aware of that. I thought it just
covered anti-islanding. If zero sell is covered, I don't see why a utility
would not accept that.

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 11:51 AM Jay  wrote:

> A number of companies have this feature which is under their UL listing.
> SE
> SolArk
> To name 2.
>
> Are you saying that the UL listing isn’t enough and that it needs 3rd
> party testing.
> If so what organization/testing would that be?
>
> Jay
> Peltz power
>
> On Mar 31, 2021, at 8:27 AM, Jason Szumlanski <
> ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com> wrote:
>
> 
> I wonder how quick these software based approaches are to respond to loads
> that drop off and momentary selling that may occur before production is
> curtailed. I think what Greg may be asking is whether there is a failsafe
> method to prevent backfeed. Without a battery, I'm not sure how that would
> be accomplished. It's an interesting question.
>
> I can see a small utility not accepting a non-failsafe software based
> solution unless it can be shown to be 100% effective via third party
> listing/certification.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 7:29 AM Will White  wrote:
>
>> Many inverters have the option to zero-sell (no export to the grid) but
>> you need an additional CT on the main service conductors so the inverter
>> can monitor the loads and ramp down production if it starts to get close to
>> producing more than the loads require.
>>
>> I'd suggest getting into the manuals and white papers of the inverter
>> manufacturers to determine if they can do this. I believe both SolarEdge
>> and Enphase can do it. I'd assume others can as well.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Will
>>
>>
>> --
>> *Will White*
>> Curriculum Developer
>>
>>
>> e: w...@solarenergy.org
>> w: www.solarenergy.org
>> p: 802-272-3092
>>
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>> # 093006-34
>> Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
>> <http://solarenergy.org/donate>.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 9:24 PM greg egan 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that
>>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power
>>> to the grid.  That may change but that is how it stands now.  The
>>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or
>>> even give excess power away.  Do any of you have any experience setting
>>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid
>>> under any circumstances?  Just wondering before I dig any deeper if
>>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks,
>>>
>>> Greg Egan
>>> Remote Power Inc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>>
>> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out or update participant bios:
http://www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] how to prevent selling to grid with grid tie inverter

[Jason Szumlanski]

I think this highlights my point. Zero export is not "really" zero export
in this case and the use of a third-party energy meter to provide net
consumption data would surely not qualify the inverter as a listed device
for this purpose. While I'm sure most utilities will accept an inverter
designed to provide so-called zero export, it's entirely reasonable to
expect that some utilities will take an absolute stance.



On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 12:28 PM Corey Shalanski  wrote:

> Hello Greg,
>
> As Will mentioned, this mode of operation is doable with SolarEdge, but it
> will require some additional hardware—specifically, you will need an energy
> meter as well as CTs for each power phase.
>
> Here is some documentation to get you started:
> - Export Limitation brochure
> 
> - Energy Meter webpage
> 
> - Export Limitation application note
> 
>
> You'll note that SolarEdge calls this feature "export limitation" as
> opposed to simply "zero export." That is because the user can limit the
> amount of power (e.g., 1 kW, 2 kW, etc.) that is exported - or none* at all.
> *Related to Jason's point, please note the following information included
> in the application note (page 24):
> " “Zero export” term can be misleading at times as one may think that
> export to the grid
> is always avoided. In fact, “zero export” mode is expected to export some
> energy to the
> grid in some edge cases. The solar systems strives to produce as much
> power as
> possible for the site consumption, however, load change events constantly
> occur. The
> zero export-regulated system tries to match production-power and
> load-consumption-power at all times. During the transition periods, some
> export power is inevitable."
>
> --
> Corey Shalanski
> Jah Light Solar
> Portland, Jamaica
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2021 at 5:24 PM  wrote:
>
>>
>> Wrenches, I've got a small system using SolarEdge inverter (4 kW) that
>> is supposed to go in to a small town that does not allow selling power
>> to the grid.  That may change but that is how it stands now.  The
>> customer wants to use the power that is generated but can not sell or
>> even give excess power away.  Do any of you have any experience setting
>> up a grid tie no battery system so that it can not sell to the grid
>> under any circumstances?  Just wondering before I dig any deeper if
>> there's an obvious solution I'm missing. Thanks,
>>
>> Greg Egan
>> Remote Power Inc.
>>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
___
List sponsored by Redwood Alliance

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Change listserver email address & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:
https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rul

Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure

[Jason Szumlanski]

Imagine this... Hurricane central here and almost no jurisdictions get on
the roof. Most do structural inspections by affidavit where the contractor
signs their life away and accepts all liability. The structural inspection
is a guy coming out and taking a picture of the affidavit (real efficient
use of government resources - don't get me started).

The electrical inspections are decidedly more thorough, but a good
reputation and clean work goes a very long way. Most of our inspections go
something like, "wow, this is refreshing." The solar vultures down here end
up with multiple failed inspections. based on some of the systems I have
had to clean up, I'm not surprised and I'm pretty relieved. But the
structural problems slip under the radar.

Jason Szumlanski

On Wed, Mar 31, 2021, 1:37 PM William Miller 
wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> We just finished a grid-tied project
> <https://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/Rework/BIG-SUR-SERVICE/Big_Sur_Service_Upgrade.html>
> that included a pretty complicated service upgrade.  The project is in
> Monterey County, California.  The site is pretty remote on the south end of
> the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is closed (as is not uncommon) to the
> north with a washout.  This makes it time consuming for an inspector to
> reach the site, but even without the washout the travel time is measured in
> hours.
>
>
>
> Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building
> department web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday.
> Yesterday morning an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too
> busy to make the appointment.  Instead I was directed to take a series of
> photographs to verify the validity of our installation work.  Below is the
> list they provided.  Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the
> fifth one.  I was told that this process will be standard operation
> procedure for the County of Monterey in the near future for solar
> installs.
>
>
>
> This seems wrong to me.  I can’t believe that any collection of
> photographs can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic
> system, let alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer
> switch, is installed correctly.  I know in the 1980s the solar water
> heating industry had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy
> installation procedures and I fear this is where the PV industry may be
> headed.
>
>
>
> I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval.  I have
> very mixed feelings about this “success.”  I feel like I cheated on a
> test.
>
>
>
> I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this.  As
> always I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum.
>
>
>
> List of requested photographs:
>
>
>
> ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the
> approved plan.
>
> ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan.
>
> ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to
> prevent physical damage.
>
> ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer’s
> installation instructions.
>
> ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan
> (e.g., PV   modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown
> equipment).
>
> ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved
> plan.
>
> ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as
> required by the  NEC.
>
> ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan.
>
> ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according
> to the approved plan.
>
> ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment
> such as  inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for
> PV modules) [NEC 110.26].
>
> ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the
> approved  plan [NEC 690.12].
>
>
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
> other:
> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> Li