"Christian" Skating Time
An unusual blurb on FoxNews that will be of interest to the list. I'd be curious if anyone knows the legal basis under which the NY Div of Human Rights sent the cease and desist letter, given the privately owned status of the skating rink. Spiritual Skating, Dictionary Debating Sunday, July 02, 2006 By Scott Norvell The New York Division of Human Rights is clamping down on a privately owned roller-skating rink that has advertised a "Christian skate time" on Sunday afternoons, according to the Times-Herald Record, claiming that the marketing ploy is discriminatory. Skate Time 209 in Accord, N.Y., advertised the Sunday skate just as it has "tot skates," "tween skates," family nights and adult disco parties. But when the Christian advertisement appeared in the local weekly paper, officials in Albany sent the rink's owners a cease-and-desist note. A "Christian skate denies or at a minimum, discourages non-Christian patronage," the letter said. The skating rink changed its ad to refer to "spiritual skate times" on Sundays, but insisted that "Christian" referred only to the type of music played during the sessions. No one was discriminated against, its owners said. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201874,00.html Will Esser --- Ad Majorem Dei GloriamCharlotte, North CarolinaWe can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light.Plato (428-345 B.C.)___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
Does New York maybe prohibit religious discrimination in places of public accommodation? Douglas Laycock Alice McKean Young Regents Chair in Law The University of Texas at Austin Mailing Address: Prof. Douglas Laycock University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI 48109 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Will EsserSent: Mon 7/3/2006 7:13 AMTo: Religion LawSubject: "Christian" Skating Time An unusual blurb on FoxNews that will be of interest to the list. I'd be curious if anyone knows the legal basis under which the NY Div of Human Rights sent the cease and desist letter, given the privately owned status of the skating rink. Spiritual Skating, Dictionary Debating Sunday, July 02, 2006 By Scott Norvell The New York Division of Human Rights is clamping down on a privately owned roller-skating rink that has advertised a "Christian skate time" on Sunday afternoons, according to the Times-Herald Record, claiming that the marketing ploy is discriminatory. Skate Time 209 in Accord, N.Y., advertised the Sunday skate just as it has "tot skates," "tween skates," family nights and adult disco parties. But when the Christian advertisement appeared in the local weekly paper, officials in Albany sent the rink's owners a cease-and-desist note. A "Christian skate denies or at a minimum, discourages non-Christian patronage," the letter said. The skating rink changed its ad to refer to "spiritual skate times" on Sundays, but insisted that "Christian" referred only to the type of music played during the sessions. No one was discriminated against, its owners said. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201874,00.html Will Esser --- Ad Majorem Dei GloriamCharlotte, North CarolinaWe can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light.Plato (428-345 B.C.) ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006, Douglas Laycock wrote: > Does New York maybe prohibit religious discrimination in places of > public accommodation? > > Douglas Laycock > Alice McKean Young Regents Chair in Law > The University of Texas at Austin And aren't public accommodations perhaps so designated based on the services they offer, not their private ownership status vel non? David B. Cruz Professor of Law University of Southern California Gould School of Law Los Angeles, CA 90089-0071 U.S.A. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
That looks like the case. A further internet search revealed the following story. The TVC letter to Governor Pataki is interesting: Skate Rink Warned Against Christian Skate TimeJune 22, 2006 A skating rink in Accord, New York has been warned by the State of New Yorks Division of Human Rights against having a Christian skate time on Sunday afternoons.The owners of Skate Time 209, Len and Terry Bernardo recently received a stern letter from the human rights office warning that having a Christian skate time violates Human Rights Law 296.2. The law says that no business can discriminate against a person because of race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, etc. Human Rights official Gina Lopez Summa told the Bernardos that their Christian skate time apparently denies or at a minimum, discourages non-Christian patronage and constitutes prima facie violation of the Human Rights Law. Summa has given them ten days to respond to the charges. Summa has also sent the same letter to the Ulster Country Press because they advertised Skate Time 209s Christian skate time. The newspaper is also under threat of legal action by the state because they published the ad. In addition, the Bernardos received an anonymous email from someone warning them Get a lawyer. TVC has issued a press release on this case and has sent a letter of concern to New York Governor George Pataki over this outrageous violation of religious freedom and free speech. In the release, Rev. Sheldon notes: This is crazy. These people are exercising basic Constitutional rights on private property to the exclusion of no one and the state government is treating them like dangerous criminals. I have asked Governor Pataki to take authority over this illegal attempt to manipulate the law to accomplish a violation of basic civil rights. I will be watching closely to see that the Bernardos rights are protected. http://www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?sid=2764 Douglas Laycock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Does New York maybe prohibit religious discrimination in places of public accommodation? Douglas Laycock Alice McKean Young Regents Chair in Law The University of Texas at Austin Mailing Address: Prof. Douglas Laycock University of Michigan Law School 625 S. State St. Ann Arbor, MI 48109 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Will EsserSent: Mon 7/3/2006 7:13 AMTo: Religion LawSubject: "Christian" Skating Time An unusual blurb on FoxNews that will be of interest to the list. I'd be curious if anyone knows the legal basis under which the NY Div of Human Rights sent the cease and desist letter, given the privately owned status of the skating rink. Spiritual Skating, Dictionary Debating Sunday, July 02, 2006 By Scott Norvell The New York Division of Human Rights is clamping down on a privately owned roller-skating rink that has advertised a "Christian skate time" on Sunday afternoons, according to the Times-Herald Record, claiming that the marketing ploy is discriminatory. Skate Time 209 in Accord, N.Y., advertised the Sunday skate just as it has "tot skates," "tween skates," family nights and adult disco parties. But when the Christian advertisement appeared in the local weekly paper, officials in Albany sent the rink's owners a cease-and-desist note. A "Christian skate denies or at a minimum, discourages non-Christian patronage," the letter said. The skating rink changed its ad to refer to "spiritual skate times" on Sundays, but insisted that "Christian" referred only to the type of music played during the sessions. No one was discriminated against, its owners said. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201874,00.html Will Esser --- Ad Majorem Dei GloriamCharlotte, North CarolinaWe can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light.Plato (428-345 B.C.)___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.Will Esser --- Ad Majorem Dei GloriamCharlotte, North CarolinaWe can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light.Plato (428-345 B.C.)___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as privat
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RE: "Christian" Skating Time
Had the NY Human Rights Division been in charge in Chicago during the 1970s, would it have meant that Bill Veeck's Comiskey Park (see http://whitesoxinteractive.com/History&Glory/FalstaffHarry.htm) couldn't have hosted "Polish Night," "Italian Night," etc., for fear that persons of other national origins would have felt that their attendance was denied or discouraged? Steve Sanders 7th Circuit US Court of Appeals ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
>From what I have read, it seems that this guy is just going to play music by "Christian" bands and singers at certain times. It would be like Veeck having nights were he played Polkas or Italian operas as a background to the game. I do not see the problem AND the language should be better than rap or hip-hop. Alan Armstrong On 7/3/06 8:13 AM, "Steve Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Had the NY Human Rights Division been in charge in Chicago during the > 1970s, would it have meant that Bill Veeck's Comiskey Park (see > http://whitesoxinteractive.com/History&Glory/FalstaffHarry.htm) > couldn't have hosted "Polish Night," "Italian Night," etc., for fear > that persons of other national origins would have felt that their > attendance was denied or discouraged? > > Steve Sanders > 7th Circuit US Court of Appeals > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. > Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can > read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Isn't there a difference between holding an "ethnic theme" -- food, music, etc.at the ball park -- and having an event that implies people of only one religion are welcome? Hard to imagine what the food and music would be of a Christian Theme night at the ball park or the skating rink? It doesn't take much of an imagination to understand that the ball park "theme" is about celebrating and ethnic culture, and the "Christian skate" is about creating a climate of exclusivity based on belief. I doubt anyone at Comisky Park was asked about their "Polish beliefs" or anyone tried to convert them to "become Polish." Paul Finkelman Steve Sanders wrote: Had the NY Human Rights Division been in charge in Chicago during the 1970s, would it have meant that Bill Veeck's Comiskey Park (see http://whitesoxinteractive.com/History&Glory/FalstaffHarry.htm) couldn't have hosted "Polish Night," "Italian Night," etc., for fear that persons of other national origins would have felt that their attendance was denied or discouraged? Steve Sanders 7th Circuit US Court of Appeals ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74105 918-631-3706 (voice) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] After July 21, 2006 my address will be Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208 518-445-3386 (office) 518-605-0296 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Quoting Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Isn't there a difference between holding an "ethnic theme" -- food, music, etc.at the ball park -- and having an event that implies people of only one religion are welcome? Hard to imagine what the food and music would be of a Christian Theme night at the ball park or the skating rink? Amy Grant and tuna casserole, perhaps? Seriously, Paul, I'm not sure I really see the difference. Both are designed to celebrate the identities and cultures of particular groups. If someone not in that group wants to feel it excludes them, it's hard to know what to do, assuming that there is no actual effort by the private entity to exclude in violation of the civil rights law. While I suspect that the Christian Skating Time crowd would not be my idea of a fun time, I'm hard pressed to understand why the rink management isn't within its rights to offer it -- again, providing they are not actually excluding non-Christians. I wouldn't feel particularly welcome shopping Hollister, Victoria's Secret, or Hip Hop Closet, but that standing alone doesn't mean I could accuse them of age, gender, or race discrimination. It doesn't take much of an imagination to understand that the ball park "theme" is about celebrating and ethnic culture, and the "Christian skate" is about creating a climate of exclusivity based on belief. By this logic, wouldn't it be illegal to run a Christian book store? I doubt anyone at Comisky Park was asked about their "Polish beliefs" or anyone tried to convert them to "become Polish." True, the worst they would have faced was being accosted by drunks wearing "Kiss Me, I'm Polish" t-shirts. Steve Sanders 7th Circuit US Court of Appeals ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
May I suggest that this thread might benefit from Gary Jacobsohn's wonderful analysis of Hindutva in his THE WHEEL OF THE LAW: INDIA'S SECULARISM IN COMPARATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL CONTEXT. As Professor Jacobsohn notes, Hindutva can be understood both as a culture and a religion, there not being a very sharp difference. My sense is the same is true for Christianity (certainly true for Judaism--witness Israeli folk dance). If this is the case, then both the claims that this is simply secular or purely religious need to be modified. The more crucial issue is how to First Amendment issues play out when the religious issues canno tbe disentangled from secular issues. Mark A. Graber ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Bookstore would not be a "public accommodation" the way a skating rink might be; in addition, isn't there a context issue here; might be factual matter for a judge or jury to determine. But, living surrounded by many people who in fact use "Christian" to exclude others and who are openly hostile to those of us who are not Christian, I have a sense that Christian skate time migth be very different than Polish Sausage night at the ball park. Again, I do no imagine anyone trying to convert you to be Polish; since I live in a world where I regularly face unwanted and offensive intrusions on my life by people who want to convert me, I perhaps see the Christian skate night as far less innocuous than Polish night. The other difference, of course, is that one IS religious and the other is not. It was not "Catholic night" at the ball park and I bet there were few priests bringing their sunday school class in for "Polish Catholic" night. Steve Sanders wrote: Quoting Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Isn't there a difference between holding an "ethnic theme" -- food, music, etc.at the ball park -- and having an event that implies people of only one religion are welcome? Hard to imagine what the food and music would be of a Christian Theme night at the ball park or the skating rink? Amy Grant and tuna casserole, perhaps? Seriously, Paul, I'm not sure I really see the difference. Both are designed to celebrate the identities and cultures of particular groups. If someone not in that group wants to feel it excludes them, it's hard to know what to do, assuming that there is no actual effort by the private entity to exclude in violation of the civil rights law. While I suspect that the Christian Skating Time crowd would not be my idea of a fun time, I'm hard pressed to understand why the rink management isn't within its rights to offer it -- again, providing they are not actually excluding non-Christians. I wouldn't feel particularly welcome shopping Hollister, Victoria's Secret, or Hip Hop Closet, but that standing alone doesn't mean I could accuse them of age, gender, or race discrimination. It doesn't take much of an imagination to understand that the ball park "theme" is about celebrating and ethnic culture, and the "Christian skate" is about creating a climate of exclusivity based on belief. By this logic, wouldn't it be illegal to run a Christian book store? I doubt anyone at Comisky Park was asked about their "Polish beliefs" or anyone tried to convert them to "become Polish." True, the worst they would have faced was being accosted by drunks wearing "Kiss Me, I'm Polish" t-shirts. Steve Sanders 7th Circuit US Court of Appeals ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74105 918-631-3706 (voice) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] After July 21, 2006 my address will be Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208 518-445-3386 (office) 518-605-0296 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Mark: An Israeli folk dance is the folk dance of a national culture. It is not a religious dance. That is the whole point! Mark Graber wrote: May I suggest that this thread might benefit from Gary Jacobsohn's wonderful analysis of Hindutva in his THE WHEEL OF THE LAW: INDIA'S SECULARISM IN COMPARATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL CONTEXT. As Professor Jacobsohn notes, Hindutva can be understood both as a culture and a religion, there not being a very sharp difference. My sense is the same is true for Christianity (certainly true for Judaism--witness Israeli folk dance). If this is the case, then both the claims that this is simply secular or purely religious need to be modified. The more crucial issue is how to First Amendment issues play out when the religious issues canno tbe disentangled from secular issues. Mark A. Graber ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74105 918-631-3706 (voice) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] After July 21, 2006 my address will be Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208 518-445-3386 (office) 518-605-0296 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time and Israeli Dancing
I'm not sure about this for several reasons. First, at least as of 20 years ago, a good deal of the music played in the typical Israel dance was religious. Dodi Li is both a dance and a Hebrew prayer. Second, I think it is going to be very hard to draw a very sharp line between Israel national culture and the Jewish religion, given that Israel claims to be a Jewish state (and insists on a religious conversion for those not deemed Jewish by the religious leadership). There is a lot more to be said on this subject. Thus, a great many people claim to be non-religious Jews (can one be a non-religious Christian or a non-religious Hindu--Jacobsohn might suggest the latter is puzzling given the lack of an official Hindu doctrine). Still, I think I will stand by my basic point that with both Christian skating time and Israeli folk dancing, there is a mix of secular and religious elements that is practically impossible to disentangle. Mark A. Graber (whose parents met Israel folk dancing and met his spouse Israeli folk dancing!) >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/03/06 12:11 PM >>> Mark: An Israeli folk dance is the folk dance of a national culture. It is not a religious dance. That is the whole point! Mark Graber wrote: >May I suggest that this thread might benefit from Gary Jacobsohn's >wonderful analysis of Hindutva in his THE WHEEL OF THE LAW: INDIA'S >SECULARISM IN COMPARATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL CONTEXT. As Professor >Jacobsohn notes, Hindutva can be understood both as a culture and a >religion, there not being a very sharp difference. My sense is the same >is true for Christianity (certainly true for Judaism--witness Israeli >folk dance). If this is the case, then both the claims that this is >simply secular or purely religious need to be modified. The more >crucial issue is how to First Amendment issues play out when the >religious issues canno tbe disentangled from secular issues. > >Mark A. Graber >___ >To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu >To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > >Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. > > -- Paul Finkelman Chapman Distinguished Professor of Law University of Tulsa College of Law 3120 East 4th Place Tulsa, OK 74105 918-631-3706 (voice) 918-631-2194 (fax) [EMAIL PROTECTED] After July 21, 2006 my address will be Paul Finkelman President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law Albany Law School 80 New Scotland Avenue Albany, New York 12208 518-445-3386 (office) 518-605-0296 (cell) [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
I don't think that's right, under New York law. McKinney's Civil Rights Law § 40A states that "place of public accommodation, resort or amusement ... shall be deemed to include ... retail stores and establishments," among a very long list of other places. And the same would likely be true in other states, such as Massachusetts, Minnesota, or New Jersey; if a parade, a Rotary Club, or the Boy Scouts is a place of public accommodations, I'd think that a retail store (whether it sells books or something else) would be the same. In any event, in New York one can't use the definition of "public accommodation" (at least if that's a state law test, as opposed to some hitherto undefined essence-of-place-of-public-accommodation definition) to distinguish bookstores from skating rinks. Paul Finkelman writes: > Bookstore would not be a "public accommodation" the way a > skating rink might be ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
I think that Alan is exactly right -- what "Christian" means in this context is likely a reference to the music that is going to be played. This is a common advertising theme in Texas, which has little to do with religion and more to do with community standards. No one is excluded from coming, but you won't expect hip hop and rap music, and you are less likely to encounter drinking and smoking among patrons (though you may find some going on in the back corners of the parking lot). My family has attended many such "events," and even though many in the area do not consider us Christian we have never been imposed upon, or witnessed to. If you can stomach Christian rock, I'd say you're unlikely to be offended. Richard Dougherty -Original Message-From: "Paul Finkelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent 7/3/2006 11:10:29 AMTo: "Law & Religion issues for Law Academics" Subject: Re: "Christian" Skating TimeBookstore would not be a "public accommodation" the way a skating rink might be; in addition, isn't there a context issue here; might be factual matter for a judge or jury to determine. But, living surrounded by many people who in fact use "Christian" to exclude others and who are openly hostile to those of us who are not Christian, I have a sense that Christian skate time migth be very different than Polish Sausage night at the ball park. Again, I do no imagine anyone trying to convert you to be Polish; since I live in a world where I regularly face unwanted and offensive intrusions on my life by people who want to convert me, I perhaps see the Christian skate night as far less innocuous than Polish night. The other difference, of course, is that one IS religious and the other is not. It was not "Catholic night" at the ball park and I bet there were few priests bringing their sunday school class in for "Polish Catholic" night. Steve Sanders wrote:> Quoting Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:>>> Isn't there a difference between holding an "ethnic theme" -- food, >> music, etc.at the ball park -- and having an event that implies >> people of only one religion are welcome? Hard to imagine what the >> food and music would be of a Christian Theme night at the ball park >> or the skating rink?>>> Amy Grant and tuna casserole, perhaps?>> Seriously, Paul, I'm not sure I really see the difference. Both are > designed to celebrate the identities and cultures of particular > groups. If someone not in that group wants to feel it excludes them, > it's hard to know what to do, assuming that there is no actual effort > by the private entity to exclude in violation of the civil rights law.>> While I suspect that the Christian Skating Time crowd would not be my > idea of a fun time, I'm hard pressed to understand why the rink > management isn't within its rights to offer it -- again, providing > they are not actually excluding non-Christians. I wouldn't feel > particularly welcome shopping Hollister, Victoria's Secret, or Hip Hop > Closet, but that standing alone doesn't mean I could accuse them of > age, gender, or race discrimination.>>> It doesn't take much of an imagination to understand that the ball >> park "theme" is about celebrating and ethnic culture, and the >> "Christian skate" is about creating a climate of exclusivity based on >> belief.>>> By this logic, wouldn't it be illegal to run a Christian book store?>>> I doubt anyone at Comisky Park was asked about their "Polish beliefs" >> or anyone tried to convert them to "become Polish.">>> True, the worst they would have faced was being accosted by drunks > wearing "Kiss Me, I'm Polish" t-shirts.>> Steve Sanders> 7th Circuit US Court of Appeals> ___> To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw>> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.-- Paul FinkelmanChapman Distinguished Professor of LawUniversity of Tulsa College of Law3120 East 4th PlaceTulsa, OK 74105918-631-3706 (voice) 918-631-2194 (fax)[EMAIL PROTECTED]After July 21, 2006 my address will bePaul FinkelmanPresident William McKinley Distinguished Professor of LawAlbany Law School80 New Scotland AvenueAlbany, New York 12208518-445-3386 (office)518-605-0296 (cell)[EMAIL PROTECTED]___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or w
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
Certainly Paul and others are free to see attempts to convert them to another religion as "offensive." Likewise, others are free to see various political views -- or even the celebration of Russianness, Greekness, Canadianness, or what have you -- as offensive. I'm not wild about going into Ben & Jerry's, because of what strikes me as its self-righteous and corny environmentalist propaganda. Still others are free to see people's complaints about the offensiveness of attempted conversion as offensive (much as some of us might be offended by attempts to prohibit or even socially marginalize our expressions of our views). What I don't see is why the offensiveness of attempts at convert people to a religion should lead us to find that such attempts are constitutionally unprotected. (Perhaps if they involve persistent unwanted one-to-one solicitation, such as in Rowan v. Post Office Dep't, they may be restricted, alongside attempts to say other things to people; but we're not speaking here about that.) If anything, it seems to me that if the Christian-themed skating park evening is being restricted because of its offensive ideological message, that only strengthens the constitutional case against the restriction. The stronger case for the restriction, I would think, would have to argue that the restriction has nothing to do with the content of the message. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul > Finkelman > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 9:10 AM > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > Subject: Re: "Christian" Skating Time > > > Bookstore would not be a "public accommodation" the way a > skating rink > might be; in addition, isn't there a context issue here; might be > factual matter for a judge or jury to determine. But, living > surrounded > by many people who in fact use "Christian" to exclude others > and who are > openly hostile to those of us who are not Christian, I have a > sense that > Christian skate time migth be very different than Polish > Sausage night > at the ball park. Again, I do no imagine anyone trying to > convert you to > be Polish; since I live in a world where I regularly face > unwanted and > offensive intrusions on my life by people who want to convert me, I > perhaps see the Christian skate night as far less innocuous > than Polish > night. > > The other difference, of course, is that one IS religious and > the other > is not. It was not "Catholic night" at the ball park and I bet there > were few priests bringing their sunday school class in for "Polish > Catholic" night. > > Steve Sanders wrote: > > > Quoting Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > >> Isn't there a difference between holding an "ethnic theme" -- food, > >> music, etc.at the ball park -- and having an event that implies > >> people of only one religion are welcome? Hard to imagine what the > >> food and music would be of a Christian Theme night at the > ball park > >> or the skating rink? > > > > > > Amy Grant and tuna casserole, perhaps? > > > > Seriously, Paul, I'm not sure I really see the difference. Both are > > designed to celebrate the identities and cultures of particular > > groups. If someone not in that group wants to feel it > excludes them, > > it's hard to know what to do, assuming that there is no > actual effort > > by the private entity to exclude in violation of the civil > rights law. > > > > While I suspect that the Christian Skating Time crowd would > not be my > > idea of a fun time, I'm hard pressed to understand why the rink > > management isn't within its rights to offer it -- again, providing > > they are not actually excluding non-Christians. I wouldn't feel > > particularly welcome shopping Hollister, Victoria's Secret, > or Hip Hop > > Closet, but that standing alone doesn't mean I could accuse them of > > age, gender, or race discrimination. > > > >> It doesn't take much of an imagination to understand that the ball > >> park "theme" is about celebrating and ethnic culture, and the > >> "Christian skate" is about creating a climate of > exclusivity based on > >> belief. > > > > > > By this logic, wouldn't it be illegal to run a Christian book store? > > > >> I doubt anyone at Comisky Park was asked about their > "Polish beliefs" > >> or anyone tried to convert them to "become Polish." > > > > > > True, the worst they would have faced was being accosted by drunks > > wearing "Kiss Me, I'm Polish" t-shirts. > > > > Steve Sanders > > 7th Circuit US Court of Appeals > > ___ > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > viewed as > > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006, Paul Finkelman wrote: > [snip] > The other difference, of course, is that one IS religious and the other > is not. It was not "Catholic night" at the ball park and I bet there > were few priests bringing their sunday school class in for "Polish > Catholic" night. If Paul's point is that religious sense's (or realities) of exclusion are different from non-religious ones, that's contestable. Legally, however, exclusion based on Polishness could well be ancestry or national origin discrimination prohibited by some publica accommodations laws. In California, in order to make their Mother's Day promotions survive state public accommodations law, baseball stadia have taken to noting in fine print that the frilly pink Mother's Day tote would be available to the first X number of patrons not just mothers. And one of the ACLU state affiliates argued that a business owner had a First Amendment right to put of a clearly exclusionary message as long as he did not actually discriminate on that basis. David B. Cruz Professor of Law University of Southern California Gould School of Law Los Angeles, CA 90089-0071 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
This is a puzzlement about the whole thread, not David's posting. How -- legally -- is the skating rink's position different from one that featured a "Celebrate Being White" night (or, to give a precise parallel in advertising, a "White Night at the Rink"), advertising that there'd be music from identifiably white performers and no rap or hip-hop (which I in my ignorance will assume are roughly correlated with non-white performers, Eminem to the contrary notwithstanding)? Is the thought that the proprietor in that case would indeed have just as strong a constitutional claim (a right of expressive association claim, I would think) as the proprietor here? Or that the state's interest in addressing perceived racial discrimination is demonstrably greater than its interest in addressing perceived religious discrimination (on the assumption, which seems correct, that in neither case would non-Christians or non-whites respectively be denied entry were they to show up)? If the latter, what's the warrant for a court's displacement of the legislative judgment that both forms of perceived discrimination are worth legal response? (Or, if you don't like "the legislative judgment" in that sentence, substitute a version that invokes Chevron-like deference to legal interpretations proferred by administrative agencies.) -- Mark Tushnet William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 Quoting David Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > On Mon, 3 Jul 2006, Paul Finkelman wrote: > > > [snip] > > The other difference, of course, is that one IS religious and the other > > is not. It was not "Catholic night" at the ball park and I bet there > > were few priests bringing their sunday school class in for "Polish > > Catholic" night. > > If Paul's point is that religious sense's (or realities) of exclusion are > different from non-religious ones, that's contestable. Legally, however, > exclusion based on Polishness could well be ancestry or national origin > discrimination prohibited by some publica accommodations laws. > > In California, in order to make their Mother's Day promotions survive > state public accommodations law, baseball stadia have taken to noting in > fine print that the frilly pink Mother's Day tote would be available to > the first X number of patrons not just mothers. And one of the ACLU state > affiliates argued that a business owner had a First Amendment right to put > of a clearly exclusionary message as long as he did not actually > discriminate on that basis. > > David B. Cruz > Professor of Law > University of Southern California Gould School of Law > Los Angeles, CA 90089-0071 > > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; > people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) > forward the messages to others. > ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
I'm not sure there is a difference between a store owner's having a theme that expresses pro-Confederate ideas (whether the theme is musical or visual, as with prominent displays of the flag), pro-Satanist ideas, pro-Christian ideas, pro-Irish ideas, pro-white ideas, pro-black ideas, girl-power ideas, or whatever else, even when these pro-X ideas are also in some measure implicitly anti-Y ideas. It seems to me that the expression of all these ideas must be constitutionally protected. If the store owner only admits members of certain groups, that would probably not be constitutionally protected, unless the requirement that he admit people without regard to race, religion, sex, or what have you substantially burdens the owner's ability to express his views (which I suspect would be pretty rare in a skating rink). But a restriction on the store owner's ability to have a certain theme, and to describe the theme as supportive of a particular race, ethnicity, religion, or sex surely would be a substantial (and viewpoint-based) burden on his ability to express his views. And this is so even if the owner's theme would be disproportionately offensive (whether deliberately or otherwise) to people of certain races, religions, sexes, sexual orientations, or whatever else. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Tushnet > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:23 AM > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics; David Cruz > Cc: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > Subject: Re: "Christian" Skating Time > > > This is a puzzlement about the whole thread, not David's > posting. How -- legally -- is the skating rink's position > different from one that featured a "Celebrate Being White" > night (or, to give a precise parallel in advertising, a > "White Night at the Rink"), advertising that there'd be music > from identifiably white performers and no rap or hip-hop > (which I in my ignorance will assume are roughly correlated > with non-white performers, Eminem to the contrary > notwithstanding)? Is the thought that the proprietor in that > case would indeed have just as strong a constitutional claim > (a right of expressive association claim, I would think) as > the proprietor here? Or that the state's interest in > addressing perceived racial discrimination is demonstrably > greater than its interest in addressing perceived religious > discrimination (on the assumption, which seems correct, that > in neither case would non-Christians or non-whites > respectively be denied entry were they to show up)? If the > latter, what's the warrant for a court's displacement of the > legislative judgment that both forms of perceived > discrimination are worth legal response? (Or, if you don't > like "the legislative judgment" in that sentence, substitute > a version that invokes Chevron-like deference to legal > interpretations proferred by administrative > agencies.) > -- > Mark Tushnet > William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law > Harvard Law School > Areeda 223 > Cambridge, MA 02138 > > > Quoting David Cruz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > > On Mon, 3 Jul 2006, Paul Finkelman wrote: > > > > > [snip] > > > The other difference, of course, is that one IS religious and the > > > other is not. It was not "Catholic night" at the ball > park and I bet > > > there were few priests bringing their sunday school class in for > > > "Polish Catholic" night. > > > > If Paul's point is that religious sense's (or realities) of > exclusion > > are different from non-religious ones, that's contestable. > Legally, > > however, exclusion based on Polishness could well be ancestry or > > national origin discrimination prohibited by some publica > > accommodations laws. > > > > In California, in order to make their Mother's Day > promotions survive > > state public accommodations law, baseball stadia have taken > to noting > > in fine print that the frilly pink Mother's Day tote would be > > available to the first X number of patrons not just > mothers. And one > > of the ACLU state affiliates argued that a business owner > had a First > > Amendment right to put of a clearly exclusionary message as > long as he > > did not actually discriminate on that basis. > > > > David B. Cruz > > Professor of Law > > University of Southern California Gould School of Law > > Los Angeles, CA 90089-0071 > > > > ___ > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > viewed as > > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > messages that are > > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can > > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to oth
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. No one would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised). Does the combination of a physical activity (skating) with the playing of music deprive the business owner of the free speech rights that a concert promoter would have? Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global warming" evening featuring the audio from Vice President Gore's movie. Would that be permitted, even though a lot of people would choose not to come to the rink in order to avoid what they would perceive as propaganda? If it would be permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against religious speech? And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening would be permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not focusing on any particular religious tradition, then isn't this a matter of viewpoint discrimination? Mark S. Scarberry Pepperdine University School of Law ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
By the way, is there a copy of the letter from the New York agency somewhere around? I'd like to see exactly what they're alleging is the violation. Thanks, Eugene > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Scarberry, Mark > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:45 AM > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > Subject: RE: "Christian" Skating Time > > > The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. No > one would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held > (and advertised). Does the combination of a physical activity > (skating) with the playing of music deprive the business > owner of the free speech rights that a concert promoter would have? > > Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global > warming" evening featuring the audio from Vice President > Gore's movie. Would that be permitted, even though a lot of > people would choose not to come to the rink in order to avoid > what they would perceive as propaganda? If it would be > permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against > religious speech? > > And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening > would be permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not > focusing on any particular religious tradition, then isn't > this a matter of viewpoint discrimination? > > Mark S. Scarberry > Pepperdine University School of Law > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, > see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; > and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > messages to others. > ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
Let me express my doubts about this assertion -- "No one would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised)" -- where the presenter is a for-profit business. (A genuine question: How do for-profit concert promoters advertise concerts by Christian rock groups?) -- Mark Tushnet William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 Quoting "Scarberry, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. No one would > doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised). > Does the combination of a physical activity (skating) with the playing > of music deprive the business owner of the free speech rights that a > concert promoter would have? > > Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global warming" evening > featuring the audio from Vice President Gore's movie. Would that be > permitted, even though a lot of people would choose not to come to the > rink in order to avoid what they would perceive as propaganda? If it > would be permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against > religious speech? > > And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening would be > permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not focusing on any particular > religious tradition, then isn't this a matter of viewpoint > discrimination? > > Mark S. Scarberry > Pepperdine University School of Law > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; > people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) > forward the messages to others. > ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
The language of the actual statute is below. And it looks like the ACLJ has taken this case on (http://www.aclj.org/trialnotebook/read.aspx?id=375). Maybe they can provide us with a copy of the letter. http://www.nysdhr.com/hrlaw.html#296 2. (a) It shall be an unlawful discriminatory practice for any person, being the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or employee of any place of public accommodation, resort or amusement, because of the race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status of any person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from or deny to such person any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges thereof, including the extension of credit, or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post or mail any written or printed communication, notice or advertisement, to the effect that any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any such place shall be refused, withheld from or denied to any person on account of race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex, or disability or marital status, or that the patronage or custom thereat of any person of or purporting to be of any particular race, creed, color, national origin, sexual orientation, military status, sex or marital status, or having a disability is unwelcome, objectionable or not acceptable, desired or solicited. (b) Nothing in this subdivision shall be construed to prevent the barring of any person, because of the sex of such person, from places of public accommodation, resort or amusement if the division grants an exemption based on bona fide considerations of public policy; nor shall this subdivision apply to the rental of rooms in a housing accommodation which restricts such rental to individuals of one sex. "Volokh, Eugene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: By the way, is there a copy of the letter from the New Yorkagency somewhere around? I'd like to see exactly what they're allegingis the violation. Thanks,Eugene> -Original Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Scarberry, Mark> Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 10:45 AM> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics> Subject: RE: "Christian" Skating Time> > > The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. No > one would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held > (and advertised). Does the combination of a physical activity > (skating) with the playing of music deprive the business > owner of the free speech rights that a concert promoter would have? > > Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global > warming" evening featuring the audio from Vice President > Gore's movie. Would that be permitted, even though a lot of > people would choose not to come to the rink in order to avoid > what they would perceive as propaganda? If it would be > permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against > religious speech?> > And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening > would be permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not > focusing on any particular religious tradition, then isn't > this a matter of viewpoint discrimination?> > Mark S. Scarberry> Pepperdine University School of Law > ___> To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, > see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw> > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; > and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > messages to others.> ___To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.eduTo subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlawPlease note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.Will Esser --- Ad Majorem Dei GloriamCharlotte, North CarolinaWe can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark;the real tragedy is when men are afraid of the light.Plato (428-345 B.C.)___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forwa
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
I don't konw about rock promotors, but gospel concerts (which I believe are almost as popular) are explicitly religious in their advertising in terms of visuals, lyrical excerpts, and framing headings. David - Original Message - From: "Mark Tushnet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Law & Religion issues for Law Academics" ; "Scarberry, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Law & Religion issues for Law Academics" Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 1:37 PM Subject: RE: "Christian" Skating Time Let me express my doubts about this assertion -- "No one would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised)" -- where the presenter is a for-profit business. (A genuine question: How do for-profit concert promoters advertise concerts by Christian rock groups?) -- Mark Tushnet William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 Quoting "Scarberry, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. No one would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised). Does the combination of a physical activity (skating) with the playing of music deprive the business owner of the free speech rights that a concert promoter would have? Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global warming" evening featuring the audio from Vice President Gore's movie. Would that be permitted, even though a lot of people would choose not to come to the rink in order to avoid what they would perceive as propaganda? If it would be permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against religious speech? And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening would be permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not focusing on any particular religious tradition, then isn't this a matter of viewpoint discrimination? Mark S. Scarberry Pepperdine University School of Law ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Presumably, Mark, a "global warming night" is not a message that people of a certain religion or ethnic group are unwelcome. As far as I know, global warming will harm (or not harm) Jews, Christians, Moslems, Satanists, Hindus, etc. without regard to their belief. Paul Scarberry, Mark wrote: The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. No one would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised). Does the combination of a physical activity (skating) with the playing of music deprive the business owner of the free speech rights that a concert promoter would have? Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global warming" evening featuring the audio from Vice President Gore's movie. Would that be permitted, even though a lot of people would choose not to come to the rink in order to avoid what they would perceive as propaganda? If it would be permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against religious speech? And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening would be permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not focusing on any particular religious tradition, then isn't this a matter of viewpoint discrimination? Mark S. Scarberry Pepperdine University School of Law ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Wouldn't it be ok to have a Christian-themed music period, rather than a "Christian Skating Time". A fine line to be sure, but surely one that would be a lawful regulation of a place of public accommodation. Also, could the skating rink set aside certain times for certain groups that otherwise might not be able to use it, e.g., a sect that will not allow men and women to skate together? One could imagine the too-many-special-groups problem -- each group vying for the best times -- and thus creating an administrative headache (or worse) for the skating center. I don't see an accommodation law being enforced as NY seems to be doing as unconstitutional. Does anyone else? If so, wouldn't that mean that free exercise would always trump any anti-discrimination law and so the owner of any public accommodation could claim that his or her religion does not allow him or her to provide any services to non-fellow adherents? Or to specific types? Leaving aside the policy arguments that some would make (that such requiring places of public accommodation not to discriminate is wrong), where is the constitutional problem? Steve -- Prof. Steven Jamar Howard University School of Law ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Would a special "Christmas Skate" or an "Easter Skate" sponsored by the skating rink be permissible under the NY Human Rights Law (or similar laws), if the interpretation of the statute by the NY Div. of Human Rights in the Skate Time 209 situation is correct? Could the skating rink be named "Holy Rollin'" and play only gospel music and Christian rock? (Under each, I assume that the owners of the establishment admit any and all who wish to skate (if they show up), regardless of religion.) Jamie Darin Prenkert Assistant Professor of Business Law Kelley School of Business, Indiana University 1309 East Tenth Street, Room 233 Bloomington, Indiana 47405 Ph:812-856-5069 Fax: 812-856-4695 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: Re: "Christian" Skating Time
I remain confused as to the facts. Did they actually try to exclude people based on religious identity? I assume that would be a clear violation of the NY law. It just isn't clear to me why a "Christian skating night" open to everyone violates the law as it is worded. If they wanted to hold a Chanukah celebration night or a Kwanza celebration night but did not turn anyone away, what would be the basis on which the NY state law you cited could ban that? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Prenkert, Jamie D Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:02 PM To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics Subject: RE: Re: "Christian" Skating Time Would a special "Christmas Skate" or an "Easter Skate" sponsored by the skating rink be permissible under the NY Human Rights Law (or similar laws), if the interpretation of the statute by the NY Div. of Human Rights in the Skate Time 209 situation is correct? Could the skating rink be named "Holy Rollin'" and play only gospel music and Christian rock? (Under each, I assume that the owners of the establishment admit any and all who wish to skate (if they show up), regardless of religion.) Jamie Darin Prenkert Assistant Professor of Business Law Kelley School of Business, Indiana University 1309 East Tenth Street, Room 233 Bloomington, Indiana 47405 Ph:812-856-5069 Fax: 812-856-4695 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others. ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
Re: "Christian" Skating Time
Well, the bookstore would be a public accommodation at least under some state's laws. But there is a difference between a themed-bookstore being open to everyone and a general skating rink being closed to some on a prohibited basis. Since the rink is open to everyone during the Christian-themed period, I suspect that under at least some state laws the rink would be ok. But this does not mean that the NY interpretation of its law is wrong or unconstitutional. On Jul 3, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Paul Finkelman wrote: Bookstore would not be a "public accommodation" the way a skating rink might be; in addition, isn't there a context issue here; might be factual matter for a judge or jury to determine. But, living surrounded by many people who in fact use "Christian" to exclude others and who are openly hostile to those of us who are not Christian, I have a sense that Christian skate time migth be very different than Polish Sausage night at the ball park. Again, I do no imagine anyone trying to convert you to be Polish; since I live in a world where I regularly face unwanted and offensive intrusions on my life by people who want to convert me, I perhaps see the Christian skate night as far less innocuous than Polish night. The other difference, of course, is that one IS religious and the other is not. It was not "Catholic night" at the ball park and I bet there were few priests bringing their sunday school class in for "Polish Catholic" night. -- Prof. Steven D. Jamar vox: 202-806-8017 Howard University School of Law fax: 202-806-8567 2900 Van Ness Street NW mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC 20008 http://www.law.howard.edu/faculty/pages/jamar/ "I do not at all resent criticism, even when, for the sake of emphasis, it for a time parts company with reality." Winston Churchill, speech to the House of Commons, 1941 ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
Well, if Mark is right, doesn't that say something very bad about the current state of First Amendment law? Given that for-profit speakers and speech presenters are fully protected by the First Amendment (see, e.g, the New York Times, CNN, etc.), isn't it quite clear that for-profit presentations of Christian music, racist music (whether white or black racist), anti-gay music, anti-fundamentalist-Christian music, anti-Catholic music, or whatever else should be entirely constitutionally protected, at least under current Supreme Court precedents? > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Tushnet > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 11:37 AM > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics; Scarberry, Mark > Cc: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > Subject: RE: "Christian" Skating Time > > Let me express my doubts about this assertion -- "No one > would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and > advertised)" -- where the presenter is a for-profit business. > (A genuine question: How do for-profit concert promoters > advertise concerts by Christian rock groups?) > -- > Mark Tushnet > William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School > Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 > > > Quoting "Scarberry, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. > No one would > > doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised). > > Does the combination of a physical activity (skating) with > the playing > > of music deprive the business owner of the free speech rights that a > > concert promoter would have? > > > > Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global > warming" evening > > featuring the audio from Vice President Gore's movie. Would that be > > permitted, even though a lot of people would choose not to > come to the > > rink in order to avoid what they would perceive as propaganda? If it > > would be permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against > > religious speech? > > > > And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening would be > > permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not focusing on > any particular > > religious tradition, then isn't this a matter of viewpoint > > discrimination? > > > > Mark S. Scarberry > > Pepperdine University School of Law > > ___ > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > viewed as > > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > messages that are posted; > > people can read the Web archives; and list members can > (rightly or wrongly) > > forward the messages to others. > > > ___ > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, > see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; > and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the > messages to others. > ___ To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
This isn't an area of my speciality, but it seems to me that, simply as a matter of positive law, the relevant decided cases -- that is, the decided cases dealing more or less directly with the asserted conflict between free speech and antidiscrimination law -- weigh strongly against Eugene's assertion. (After all, he's written quite a few articles pointing out how wrong the lower courts are.) Maybe the law should be as Eugene describes it -- although on that see below -- but it's not at all clear to me that it "is" that. (And, as a jurisprudential matter, it seems to me, one ought to take decided cases into account, along with general principles of course, in figuring out what the law is and what it should be. The common lawyer in me thinks that judges with responsibility for deciding actual cases might develop principles more attuned to the problems they see before them than they -- or we -- would by reflecting on First Amendment generalities. Common lawyers, as Louis Henkin put it, draw lines all the time -- principled lines -- informed by the particulars of the cases before them without degenerating into making ad hoc rulings on the basis of those particulars.) And, on a more normative note, I would think that a position, which seems to me Eugene's, that Lester Maddox had a valid First Amendment right to refuse service to African Americans at his restaurant (because the law requiring him to provide such service would place a substantial burden, and for viewpoint related reasons, on his right to express his deeply held racist views by means of expressive conduct) says something very bad about the state of the First Amendment law as Eugene would construct it. -- Mark Tushnet William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 Quoting "Volokh, Eugene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Well, if Mark is right, doesn't that say something very bad > about the current state of First Amendment law? Given that for-profit > speakers and speech presenters are fully protected by the First > Amendment (see, e.g, the New York Times, CNN, etc.), isn't it quite > clear that for-profit presentations of Christian music, racist music > (whether white or black racist), anti-gay music, > anti-fundamentalist-Christian music, anti-Catholic music, or whatever > else should be entirely constitutionally protected, at least under > current Supreme Court precedents? > > > -Original Message- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Tushnet > > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 11:37 AM > > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics; Scarberry, Mark > > Cc: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > > Subject: RE: "Christian" Skating Time > > > > Let me express my doubts about this assertion -- "No one > > would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and > > advertised)" -- where the presenter is a for-profit business. > > (A genuine question: How do for-profit concert promoters > > advertise concerts by Christian rock groups?) > > -- > > Mark Tushnet > > William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School > > Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 > > > > > > Quoting "Scarberry, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. > > No one would > > > doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and advertised). > > > Does the combination of a physical activity (skating) with > > the playing > > > of music deprive the business owner of the free speech rights that a > > > concert promoter would have? > > > > > > Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global > > warming" evening > > > featuring the audio from Vice President Gore's movie. Would that be > > > permitted, even though a lot of people would choose not to > > come to the > > > rink in order to avoid what they would perceive as propaganda? If it > > > would be permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against > > > religious speech? > > > > > > And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" evening would be > > > permitted, so long as it was inclusive by not focusing on > > any particular > > > religious tradition, then isn't this a matter of viewpoint > > > discrimination? > > > > > > Mark S. Scarberry > > > Pepperdine University School of Law > > > ___ > > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see > > > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw > > > > > > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be > > viewed as > > > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read > > messages that are posted; > > > people can read the Web archives; and list members can > > (rightly or wrongly) > > > forward the messages to others. > > > > > ___ > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu > > To subscrib
RE: "Christian" Skating Time
Hmm -- perhaps I'm missing something, but I know of no cases that hold that, or even weigh strongly in favor of the assertion that, "a Christian music concert could [not] be held (and advertised) ... where the presenter is a for-profit business." Are there some that I haven't thought of? I'm sure that an argument in favor of the assertion can be created, using lower court antidiscrimination law cases, most of which don't even consider the First Amendment. But if one is simply talking about such arguments, it seems to me that a much stronger argument can be created against this assertion, using the Supreme Court's First Amendment cases. Eugene Mark Tushnet writes: > This isn't an area of my speciality, but it seems to me that, > simply as a matter of positive law, the relevant decided > cases -- that is, the decided cases dealing more or less > directly with the asserted conflict between free speech and > antidiscrimination law -- weigh strongly against Eugene's assertion. > (After all, he's written quite a few articles pointing out > how wrong the lower courts are.) Maybe the law should be as > Eugene describes it -- although on that see below -- but it's > not at all clear to me that it "is" that. (And, as a > jurisprudential matter, it seems to me, one ought to take > decided cases into account, along with general principles of > course, in figuring out what the law is and what it should > be. The common lawyer in me thinks that judges with > responsibility for deciding actual cases might develop > principles more attuned to the problems they see before them > than they -- or we -- would by reflecting on First Amendment > generalities. Common lawyers, as Louis Henkin put it, draw > lines all the time -- principled lines -- informed by the > particulars of the cases before them without degenerating > into making ad hoc rulings on the basis of those particulars.) > > And, on a more normative note, I would think that a position, > which seems to me Eugene's, that Lester Maddox had a valid > First Amendment right to refuse service to African Americans > at his restaurant (because the law requiring him to provide > such service would place a substantial burden, and for > viewpoint related reasons, on his right to express his deeply > held racist views by means of expressive conduct) says > something very bad about the state of the First Amendment law > as Eugene would construct it. > -- > Mark Tushnet > William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School > Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 > > > Quoting "Volokh, Eugene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Well, if Mark is right, doesn't that say something very bad > > about the current state of First Amendment law? Given that > for-profit > > speakers and speech presenters are fully protected by the First > > Amendment (see, e.g, the New York Times, CNN, etc.), isn't it quite > > clear that for-profit presentations of Christian music, racist music > > (whether white or black racist), anti-gay music, > > anti-fundamentalist-Christian music, anti-Catholic music, > or whatever > > else should be entirely constitutionally protected, at least under > > current Supreme Court precedents? > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Mark Tushnet > > > Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 11:37 AM > > > To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics; Scarberry, Mark > > > Cc: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics > > > Subject: RE: "Christian" Skating Time > > > > > > Let me express my doubts about this assertion -- "No one > > > would doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and > > > advertised)" -- where the presenter is a for-profit business. > > > (A genuine question: How do for-profit concert promoters > > > advertise concerts by Christian rock groups?) > > > -- > > > Mark Tushnet > > > William Nelson Cromwell Professor of Law Harvard Law School > > > Areeda 223 Cambridge, MA 02138 > > > > > > > > > Quoting "Scarberry, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > > The music is a substantial part of the skating experience. > > > No one would > > > > doubt that a Christian music concert could be held (and > advertised). > > > > Does the combination of a physical activity (skating) with > > > the playing > > > > of music deprive the business owner of the free speech > rights that a > > > > concert promoter would have? > > > > > > > > Suppose the owner of the rink decided to have a "global > > > warming" evening > > > > featuring the audio from Vice President Gore's movie. > Would that be > > > > permitted, even though a lot of people would choose not to > > > come to the > > > > rink in order to avoid what they would perceive as > propaganda? If it > > > > would be permitted, then doesn't the NY law discriminate against > > > > religious speech? > > > > > > > > And if, as I think someone suggested, a "spiritual" > evening
