Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers

[Chuck Kelsey]

More likely he had the radio programmed wrong.

Chuck
WB2EDV


- Original Message - 
From: "MCH" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with 
more questions - Thanks for the answers


> His antenna could be in a null. It happens, as Murphy is a ham.
>
> Joe M.
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers

[Thomas Oliver]

 I agree. The users would not even notice if you cut the power in half. 
One 2 meter repeater we took over was running on the 10 watt exciter 
with the amp bypassed for I don't know how long.  The caretaker before 
we got it bypassed the amp because of desense or intermod or self 
oscillation issues, we used to have some high powered VHF paging 
transmitters close by that were exactly 600 Khz apart and no circulator, 
We are now blessed because they moved to 900.


It was only when were replacing the functioning repeater we discovered 
the amp was bypassed, He never told anyone.


tom

On 9/7/2010 11:50 PM, Glenn (Butch) Kanvick wrote:



Hi John.
Sometimes you might not want to tel the others what you do to the 
repeater, then they cannot complain about any adjustments that you make.

Butch, KE7FEL/r

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, W3ML > wrote:


Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions.

I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once
when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside
his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal.
It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain
about something to do with it.

Thanks and 73
John, W3ML

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers

[Glenn (Butch) Kanvick]

Hi John.
Sometimes you might not want to tel the others what you do to the repeater,
then they cannot complain about any adjustments that you make.

Butch, KE7FEL/r

On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, W3ML  wrote:

>
>
> Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions.
>
> I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham
> said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25
> watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal.
> It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about
> something to do with it.
>
> Thanks and 73
> John, W3ML
>
> 
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers

[MCH]

His antenna could be in a null. It happens, as Murphy is a ham.

Joe M.

W3ML wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions.
> 
> I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham 
> said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 
> watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal.
> It seems  when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about 
> something to do with it.
> 
> 
> Thanks and 73
> John, W3ML
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers

[W3ML]

Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions.

I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham 
said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt 
radio and brought it up with an S8 signal.
It seems  when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about 
something to do with it.


Thanks and 73
John, W3ML

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Ian Wells]

Guys .I have a similar problem with 2 repeaters but its in the receiver side
.The maxon sm4450uhf receiver is tuned to the best it can be on the service
monitor -115db and the bpbr duplexer is tuned to correct specs as far as I
can see on the hp8921a .I have also tested the repeater in duplex mode into
the service monitor and all good -115db no static, power out  good  
Replaced the antenna and interconnecting cable is heliax and its  all good 
I will be testing the antenna system with a new MFJ-269 antenna tester  to
make sure its ok .Transmission is a1 full distance but when a transmission
is sent the repeater its good up close fast to come on but  is slow to come
on with distant stations.  We are using a ctcss tone which I will be
checking to see if it is correct .Saying that I should try it without the
ctcss and see if it is better without the ctcss detection.

Thank You ,Ian Wells
Kerinvale Comaudio,
3A Murchison Street, Biloela.4715
Ph 0749922449 Mb 0409159932 
Hm 0749922574 Fx 0749922767
www.kerinvalecomaudio.com.au
 
---Original Message---
 
From: Jeff DePolo
Date: 7/09/2010 8:50:36 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with
more questions
 
  

Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone
frequency. Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their
CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are
convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another...

--- Jeff

> -Original Message-
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer 
> SOLVED with more questions
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like 
> to turn my stuff back at least 10%.
> 
> Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the 
> power. see what they say.
> 
> 73, Joe, K1ike
> 
> On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: 
> 
> John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it 
> has nothing to do with hardware...
> 
> If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.
> 
> If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 
> 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the 
> repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 
> dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage.
> 
> Tell him guys...am I wrong?
> 
> ;^)
> 
> 73,
> Paul, AE4KR
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: Tim Sawyer <mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com> 
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power 
> out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



 <>

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Jeff DePolo]

Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone
frequency.  Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their
CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are
convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another...

--- Jeff

> -Original Message-
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer 
> SOLVED with more questions
> 
>   
> 
> I agree.  Put it back to the original output.  I always like 
> to turn my stuff back at least 10%.
> 
> Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the 
> power.  see what they say.
> 
> 73, Joe, K1ike
> 
> On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: 
> 
>   John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it 
> has nothing to do with hardware...
>
>   If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.
>
>   If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 
> 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the 
> repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 
> dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage.
>
>   Tell him guys...am I wrong?
>
>   ;^)
>
>   73,
>   Paul, AE4KR
>
>
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Tim Sawyer <mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com>  
>           To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power 
> out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Joe]

 I agree.  Put it back to the original output.  I always like to turn 
my stuff back at least 10%.


Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power.  see 
what they say.


73, Joe, K1ike

On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote:



John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to 
do with hardware...

If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.
If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users 
will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've 
increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have 
noticed the improved coverage.

Tell him guys...am I wrong?
;^)
73,
Paul, AE4KR

- Original Message -
*From:* Tim Sawyer <mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com>
*To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com>
*Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer
SOLVED with more questions

RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Mike Besemer (WM4B)]

Paul speaks the truth.

 

I had one fellow who always insisted something was wrong with the repeater
when the foliage came on the trees every spring.  I tried to explain to him
that the leaves and humidity were attenuating the signal and that it was
just a fact of life for the fringe-area users.  Nonetheless, he insisted
that the power was down or the VSWR was up.

 

After arguing (nicely) with this fellow for a couple of weeks, I programmed
a voice message on the repeater that I could call at-will and then told him
I'd installed a wattmeter at the site that interfaced with the controller.
I then demonstrated it to him.  The message read "The forward power is 35
watts and the reflected power is 0.7 watts".  With this new 'feature'
installed, he turned his attention to improving his antenna system. 

 

73,

 

Mike

WM4B

 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Plack
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:04 PM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with
more questions

 

  

John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do
with hardware...

 

If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.

 

If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will
ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the
transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved
coverage.

 

Tell him guys...am I wrong?

 

;^)

 

73,

Paul, AE4KR

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Tim Sawyer <mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com>  

To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 

Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM

Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with
more questions

 

  

In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's
probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what
a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but
I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[petedcurtis]

Hi,

70 watts out sounds OK.  Duplexer's usually have about a 1 - 2db loss
depends how they are set up, size of cavities etc and the model type.

Duplexer  loss   = 10log(Pin/Pout)  Duplexer  Loss  = 10Log(70/100)=
-1.54dB.


Peter

On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:54 AM, W3ML  wrote:

>
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin
> had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not
> notice it.
>
> I still have one question though.
>
> Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming
> out of duplexer?
>
> Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
>
> That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
>
> 73
> John, W3ML
>
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com,
> Joe  wrote:
> >
> > What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the
> > loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder
> > joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should
> > find it, as it was discussed recently.
> >
> > The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not
> > over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If
> > your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N
> > connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter,
> > but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> >
> > What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans
> > and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in
> > series and see if there is output from that can. This process should
> > isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just
> > to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix
> > them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that
> > it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test
> > OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it
> > simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> >
> > This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with
> > the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second,
> > and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad
> > can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> >
> > The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have
> > available? Service monitor, tracking generator?
> >
> > Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just
> > off the top of my head.
> >
> > On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and
> learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been
> involved with a VHF repeater system.
> > >
> > > Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60
> watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80
> out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> > >
> > > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at
> all. Radio still shows power coming out.
> > >
> > > Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas?
> > >
> > > 73
> > > John, W3ML
> > >
> >
>
>  
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Paul Plack]

John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with 
hardware...

If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier.

If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask 
you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter 
output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage.

Tell him guys...am I wrong?

;^)

73,
Paul, AE4KR


  - Original Message - 
  From: Tim Sawyer 
  To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more 
questions



  In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably 
not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is 
when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're 
better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Okay Tim.

That sounds like a wise idea especially since we have an old GE Mastr II and 
may not take much use at full power out.


Thanks and 73
John, W3ML



--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Tim Sawyer  wrote:
>
> In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably 
> not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it 
> is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think 
> you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
> --
> Tim
> :wq
> 
> On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, W3ML wrote:
> 
> > It is great! I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Tim Sawyer]

In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably 
not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is 
when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're 
better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
--
Tim
:wq

On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, W3ML wrote:

> It is great! I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Mike, Joe and Ralph,

Thank you all for the great information about the power loss.  As I stated 
earlier, I am still earning about this repeater stuff.  In the past year and 
half I have learned more about repeaters than I knew in the first 29 years of 
being a ham.

It is great!  I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.

I have stored your answers away in the repeater folder for future reference and 
really do appreciate you taking the time to explain it all to me and maybe 
others that had questions as well.

73 John, W3ML



--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Besemer \(WM4B\)" 
 wrote:
>
> WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss.  2.0 dB
> down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good.
> 
>  
> 
> Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.
> 
>  
> 
> 73,
> 
>  
> 
> Mike
> 
> WM4B
> 
>  
> 
> From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML
> Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
> To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more
> questions
> 
>  
> 
>   
> 
> Thanks Joe.
> 
> We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin
> had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not
> notice it.
> 
> I still have one question though.
> 
> Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming
> out of duplexer?
> 
> Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
> 
> That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
> 
> 73
> John, W3ML
> 
> --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe  wrote:
> >
> > What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the 
> > loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder 
> > joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should 
> > find it, as it was discussed recently.
> > 
> > The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not 
> > over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If 
> > your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N 
> > connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, 
> > but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> > 
> > What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans 
> > and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in 
> > series and see if there is output from that can. This process should 
> > isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just 
> > to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix 
> > them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that 
> > it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test 
> > OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it 
> > simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> > 
> > This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with 
> > the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, 
> > and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad 
> > can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> > 
> > The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have 
> > available? Service monitor, tracking generator?
> > 
> > Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just 
> > off the top of my head.
> > 
> > On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and
> learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been
> involved with a VHF repeater system.
> > >
> > > Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60
> watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80
> out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> > >
> > > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at
> all. Radio still shows power coming out.
> > >
> > > Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas?
> > >
> > > 73
> > > John, W3ML
> > >
> >
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Hi Joe,

I have a CN-801 Daiwa and it showed 0.1 on reflected side.

So that is not too bad.

Wacom model is 639 -6

We have no desense and a range of about 30 miles at best in all directions.

We were not wanting a large area of coverage, as it is used for the county 
emergency RACES/ARES service.

Thanks again for the information.

73
John, W3ML


--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe  wrote:
>
>   I agree with Mike. 100 watts in, 70 watts out is about 1.5dB loss. 
> That looks very good for a Wacom. What is the model of your duplexer? 
> The WP-643 had a single bandpass can on each side that might change the 
> estimated loss.
> 
> Did you happen to look at the reflected power when you took the forward 
> power readings? If you had reflected power, it could throw the forward 
> reading off. What kind of a watt meter did you use?
> 
> As long as you have no desense, I'd leave it alone.
> 
> 73, Joe, K1ike
> 
> On 9/6/2010 11:28 AM, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote:
> >
> >
> > WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 
> > 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good.
> >
> > Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > WM4B
> >
> > *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> > [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *W3ML
> > *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
> > *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> > *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with 
> > more questions
> >
> > Thanks Joe.
> >
> > We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector 
> > center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test 
> > equipment and did not notice it.
> >
> > I still have one question though.
> >
> > Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts 
> > coming out of duplexer?
> >
> > Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
> >
> > That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
> >
> > 73
> > John, W3ML
> >
>

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Ralph Mowery]

Depending on the frequency seperation it sounds like it is in the ball park.  
Maybe even not enough loss.  Quick in the head math short cut is that 1 db is 
about 25%.  That would give you 75 watts out of the duplexer for 100 watts in.  
If it is 3 db, that is half power or 50 watts out for 100 in.  Any loss between 
the two numbers could be correct.  



Again depending on the frequency seperation and isolation in DB, you can look 
for 1/2 to 1 DB per cavity.  That is for each side.  So 3 cans per side would 
be 
from 1.5 db to 3 db loss in the transmitt side and the same for the receive 
side.


 


- Original Message 
From: W3ML 
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 10:54:37 AM
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more 
questions

Thanks Joe.


We did most of those and then found the problem.  The T-connector center pin 
had 
broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice 
it.

I still have one question though.

Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out 
of duplexer?

Wacom 6 can type duplexer.


That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.

73
John, W3ML


  

Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Joe]

  I agree with Mike. 100 watts in, 70 watts out is about 1.5dB loss. 
That looks very good for a Wacom. What is the model of your duplexer? 
The WP-643 had a single bandpass can on each side that might change the 
estimated loss.

Did you happen to look at the reflected power when you took the forward 
power readings? If you had reflected power, it could throw the forward 
reading off. What kind of a watt meter did you use?

As long as you have no desense, I'd leave it alone.

73, Joe, K1ike

On 9/6/2010 11:28 AM, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote:
>
>
> WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 
> 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you’re doing good.
>
> Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.
>
> 73,
>
> Mike
>
> WM4B
>
> *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *W3ML
> *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
> *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with 
> more questions
>
> Thanks Joe.
>
> We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector 
> center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test 
> equipment and did not notice it.
>
> I still have one question though.
>
> Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts 
> coming out of duplexer?
>
> Wacom 6 can type duplexer.
>
> That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.
>
> 73
> John, W3ML
>







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RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[Mike Besemer (WM4B)]

WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss.  2.0 dB
down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good.

 

Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%.

 

73,

 

Mike

WM4B

 

From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML
Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM
To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more
questions

 

  

Thanks Joe.

We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin
had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not
notice it.

I still have one question though.

Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming
out of duplexer?

Wacom 6 can type duplexer.

That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.

73
John, W3ML

--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe  wrote:
>
> What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the 
> loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder 
> joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should 
> find it, as it was discussed recently.
> 
> The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not 
> over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If 
> your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N 
> connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, 
> but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> 
> What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans 
> and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in 
> series and see if there is output from that can. This process should 
> isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just 
> to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix 
> them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that 
> it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test 
> OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it 
> simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> 
> This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with 
> the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, 
> and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad 
> can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> 
> The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have 
> available? Service monitor, tracking generator?
> 
> Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just 
> off the top of my head.
> 
> On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and
learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been
involved with a VHF repeater system.
> >
> > Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60
watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80
out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> >
> > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at
all. Radio still shows power coming out.
> >
> > Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas?
> >
> > 73
> > John, W3ML
> >
>

[Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions

[W3ML]

Thanks Joe.


We did most of those and then found the problem.  The T-connector center pin 
had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not 
notice it.

I still have one question though.

Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out 
of duplexer?

Wacom 6 can type duplexer.


That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help.

73
John, W3ML



--- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Joe  wrote:
>
>   What make and model is the duplexer?   I know of one instance that the 
> loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder 
> joint, but can't remember what one it was.  A search on this list should 
> find it, as it was discussed recently.
> 
> The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness.  Do not 
> over-tighten the connections!  Just make sure that they are snug.  If 
> your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much.   N 
> connectors need to be snug,  UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, 
> but not cranked down tight, but not until they break.
> 
> What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans 
> and test the first one for power out.  Then connect the next can in 
> series and see if there is output from that can.  This process should 
> isolate the bad can(s).  Disconnect the receiver while doing this just 
> to be safe.  MARK all the cables as to where they came from.  Do not mix 
> them up.  It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that 
> it is not the interconnecting cable.  If all the cans and cables test 
> OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer.  Keep it 
> simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad.
> 
> This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with 
> the duplexer.  Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, 
> and lastly the cans.  The process above will help you isolate the bad 
> can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can.
> 
> The real fix would involve some test equipment.  What do you have 
> available?  Service monitor, tracking generator?
> 
> Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just 
> off the top of my head.
> 
> On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and 
> > learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been 
> > involved with a VHF repeater system.
> >
> >   Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts 
> > out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of 
> > duplexer it seemed to be working okay.
> >
> > But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. 
> > Radio still shows power coming out.
> >
> > Nothing was touch on the duplexer.  Any ideas?
> >
> > 73
> > John, W3ML
> >
>