Re: [sage-devel] Re: trac milestone
But how should milestones be used? For bugs it seems easy to have next release as default milestone, but about enhancements? I have put them on whislist, if I think that I might do it myself, but don't know when. -- Jori Mäntysalo
Re: [sage-devel] Re: trac milestone
Am 2014-11-14 um 18:05 schrieb kcrisman: > > Per the recent discussion I will not batch modify the milestone on the > currently-open tickets. > > > Thank you. > > Did we end up discovering what the secret sauce was for doing it on the > database > directly? If the database schema at http://trac.sagemath.org/wiki/DBSchema is accurate, update ticket set milestone='sage-6.5' where milestone='sage-6.4' and status != 'closed'; could be the trick. Before trying that, I'd like to see what select id, summary, milestone, status from ticket where milestone='sage-6.4' and status != 'closed' actually gives. However, the above lines are hardly secret sauce ... Regards, CH -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: discussion of sage
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 2:11 PM, mmarco wrote: > It seems to me that people talking about sage in that discussion don't > really know much about what Sage is. If there is something depressing there, > is the fact that we haven't done good enough in the marketing side. Yes, *that* is precisely what I meant. > On a side comment, you mention that Sage has around half a million lines of > new code. According to my measures (on version 6.3), the Sage library > consists on more than one million lines of python code (about half of it are > docstrings, so the other half is actual code), plus about half a million > lines of cython code (again, about half is actual code). That makes a total > of more than 75 lines of new code. Dang, that's a lot of code... > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: discussion of sage
It seems to me that people talking about sage in that discussion don't really know much about what Sage is. If there is something depressing there, is the fact that we haven't done good enough in the marketing side. On a side comment, you mention that Sage has around half a million lines of new code. According to my measures (on version 6.3), the Sage library consists on more than one million lines of python code (about half of it are docstrings, so the other half is actual code), plus about half a million lines of cython code (again, about half is actual code). That makes a total of more than 75 lines of new code. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: Future NTL versions and exception handling
Yes, that is an issue. Writing exception-safe code is hard, as I'm finding out... Of course, I'll have to provide a way to turn off/on exceptions, both at compile time and at run time. On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:04:53 PM UTC-5, Robert Bradshaw wrote: > > Sage's wrapping of NTL should be just fine as long as it's declared in > the Cython declarations, but there's a question of all the libraries > that use NTL indirectly which may have more difficulty adapting to > exceptions being thrown though their call stacks. > > On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 3:48 PM, Francesco Biscani > wrote: > > OOM exception handling is gonna be hard to implement, as GMP does not > > provide any mechanism to recover from memory errors. You can replace the > GMP > > memory management functions but the usual problem with that approach is > that > > you might be potentially interacting with other packages which might > also > > want to override the default functions. Another problem is that IIRC > > throwing C++ exceptions from C is undefined (or maybe > > implementation-defined?) behaviour. > > > > In any case, exceptions are the way to go when you program in C++. A > > well-coded C++ program should state precisely what level of exception > safety > > the routines provide (no-throw, strong, basic), and how and what a > routine > > can throw. Ideally you would want strong exception safety always - this > is > > quite doable but sometimes for the sake of performance basic exception > > safety is a good compromise. Of course anything involving move semantics > > should be marked noexcept. Another typical suggestion is always to use > RAII > > patterns when coding routines that can throw - that way you are > guaranteed > > that any resource is properly cleaned up before exiting the function > through > > an exception. > > > > C++11 also has good support for handling exceptions in threads, > including > > transporting exceptions between threads. In particular, using an > std::future > > for managing the return value of (or the exception thrown within) a > thread > > is pretty handy. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Francesco. > > > > On 12 November 2014 00:05, Jean-Pierre Flori > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 11:55:49 PM UTC+1, Volker Braun wrote: > >>> > >>> What kind of error states are we talking about? divide by zero and out > of > >>> memory? > >>> > >> Exactly, that is exactly the kind of stuff Victor mentioned. > >> > >>> > >>> IMHO a C++ library should just throw C++ exceptions, thats what they > are > >>> here for. If only for better readability -> less bugs. If you declare > >>> methods with "except +" to Cython then they will automatically be > converted > >>> into Python exceptions, so its also very convenient for us. Pynac uses > that > >>> all the time. > >>> > >>> Pretty much the only potential downside are rumors that exceptions > might > >>> possibly hinder the optimizer. Though I've never seen that in a > reasonable > >>> benchmark. While that is certainly a possibility, it would just be an > >>> optimizer bug. All reasonable C++ compilers uses a zero-cost model so > its at > >>> least as fast as handling / returning some error flag. What _is_ > expensive > >>> is when an exception occurs, but in C++ you are not supposed to use > >>> exceptions for program flow like in Python. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Tuesday, November 11, 2014 10:15:44 PM UTC, Jean-Pierre Flori > wrote: > > Dear all, > > As you must have noticed, Victor Shoup just released a new thread > safe > version of NTL. > > He also took the opportunity to ask me (and surely a bunch of other > people) what would be expected from exception handling in NTL > Currently NTL just prints something and then aborts. > Note that we patch that in Sage to call one of our own functions and > avoid aborting. > I'm no C++ expert and don't usually play with exceptions, so I don't > have anything that sart to say. > But your comments/ideas/suggestions are more than welcomed. > I can gather them and forward them back to Victor. > > Best, > JP > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "sage-devel" group. > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > >> email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com . > >> To post to this group, send email to sage-...@googlegroups.com > . > >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "sage-devel" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to t
[sage-devel] NTL v7.0.1
Hi all, I've joined this group, since I think the Sage developer group is probably one of the biggest users of NTL, and so it might be useful to be in more direct contact. Anyway, I just release v7.0.1 of NTL, which fixes a bug in the polynomial multiplication code in v7.0. You will only see the bug for polynomials over ZZ_p of degree greater than 4000-5000, but then it is catastrophic. It turns out my test suite was not covering everything. The only change is to the file FFT.c. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Bug in abs(I*x).diff(x)
On Nov 14, 2014 11:30 AM, "Bill Page" wrote: > > On 14 November 2014 13:18, Ondřej Čertík wrote: > > > > On Nov 14, 2014 8:57 AM, "Bill Page" wrote: > >> > >> It seems to me that we should forget about x and y. All we really need is > >> > >> |z|' = d |z| / d z = conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) > >> > >> and the appropriate algebraic properties of conjugate. > > > > Sure, we can make a CAS return this. But then you get the 1/2 there. > > > > Yes. > > >> ... > >> The constant 1/2 is irrelevant. > > > > Well, but how do I recover the real derivative from the complex one if they > > differ by a factor of 1/2? > > > > What do you mean by "the real derivative"? The absolute value doesn't have a complex derivative, but it has a real derivative, over the real axis. > Perhaps we can just define that as > > d f / d z + d f / d conjugate(z) > > > In other words, what is the utility of such a definition then? > > > > I can see the utility of differentiating with respect to x, as at least you > > must recover the real derivative results. > > > > You are not differentiating with respect to x, you are differentiating > with respect to > > (z+conjugate(z))/2 Is that how you propose to define the derivatives for non-analytic functions? I am a little confused what exactly is your proposal. I think one either leaves the derivatives of non analytic functions unevaluated, or defines them in such a way that one recovers the real derivative as a special case, as long as there are no inconsistencies. Ondrej > > Bill. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Bug in abs(I*x).diff(x)
On 14 November 2014 13:18, Ondřej Čertík wrote: > > On Nov 14, 2014 8:57 AM, "Bill Page" wrote: >> >> It seems to me that we should forget about x and y. All we really need is >> >> |z|' = d |z| / d z = conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) >> >> and the appropriate algebraic properties of conjugate. > > Sure, we can make a CAS return this. But then you get the 1/2 there. > Yes. >> ... >> The constant 1/2 is irrelevant. > > Well, but how do I recover the real derivative from the complex one if they > differ by a factor of 1/2? > What do you mean by "the real derivative"? Perhaps we can just define that as d f / d z + d f / d conjugate(z) > In other words, what is the utility of such a definition then? > > I can see the utility of differentiating with respect to x, as at least you > must recover the real derivative results. > You are not differentiating with respect to x, you are differentiating with respect to (z+conjugate(z))/2 Bill. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: trac milestone
> I did make a new milestone for 6.5 and made that the default. > > On Friday, November 14, 2014 5:05:30 PM UTC, kcrisman wrote: >> >> More toward resolving this in a happier way, perhaps we should have the >> default for new tickets changed as well - I couldn't find a place to do >> that but am not too familiar with the admin interface, e.g. >> http://trac.sagemath.org/admin/ticket/milestones had nothing relevant. >> > I meant that some people suggested making no milestone the default. I'm not sure what I think about that, I can see pros and cons. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Bug in abs(I*x).diff(x)
On Nov 14, 2014 8:57 AM, "Bill Page" wrote: > > On 14 November 2014 02:19, Ondřej Čertík wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 12:14 AM, Ondřej Čertík wrote: > >> ... > >> Ok, thanks for the confirmation. > >> > >> There is an issue though --- since |z| is not analytic, the > >> derivatives depend on the direction. So along "x" you get > > > > |z|' = \partial |z| / \partial x = d |z| / d z + d |z| / d conjugate(z) = > > conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) + z / (2*|z|) = Re(z) / |z| > > > > but along "y" you get: > > > > |z|' = \partial |z| / \partial i*y = d |z| / d z - d |z| / d conjugate(z) = > > conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) - z / (2*|z|) = i*Im(z) / |z| > > > > So I get something completely different. > > It seems to me that we should forget about x and y. All we really need is > > |z|' = d |z| / d z = conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) > > and the appropriate algebraic properties of conjugate. Sure, we can make a CAS return this. But then you get the 1/2 there. > > > So which direction should be preferred in the CAS convention and why? > > > > Well, um, you did write: "Because I would like to get > > d|x| / d x = x / |x| > > for real x". > > The constant 1/2 is irrelevant. Well, but how do I recover the real derivative from the complex one if they differ by a factor of 1/2? In other words, what is the utility of such a definition then? I can see the utility of differentiating with respect to x, as at least you must recover the real derivative results. Ondrej > > Bill. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] discussion of sage
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 12:49 PM, William Stein wrote: > There is a somewhat depressing discussion of Sage here... > > http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/11/13/206252 > What if you ignore CirclesInSand? Sounds like a troll to me. > > -- > William Stein > Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] discussion of sage
There is a somewhat depressing discussion of Sage here... http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/11/13/206252 -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: trac milestone
I did make a new milestone for 6.5 and made that the default. On Friday, November 14, 2014 5:05:30 PM UTC, kcrisman wrote: > > More toward resolving this in a happier way, perhaps we should have the > default for new tickets changed as well - I couldn't find a place to do > that but am not too familiar with the admin interface, e.g. > http://trac.sagemath.org/admin/ticket/milestones had nothing relevant. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: trac milestone
> Per the recent discussion I will not batch modify the milestone on the > currently-open tickets. > Thank you. Did we end up discovering what the secret sauce was for doing it on the database directly? More toward resolving this in a happier way, perhaps we should have the default for new tickets changed as well - I couldn't find a place to do that but am not too familiar with the admin interface, e.g. http://trac.sagemath.org/admin/ticket/milestones had nothing relevant. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Bug in abs(I*x).diff(x)
On 14 November 2014 02:19, Ondřej Čertík wrote: > On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 12:14 AM, Ondřej Čertík > wrote: >> ... >> Ok, thanks for the confirmation. >> >> There is an issue though --- since |z| is not analytic, the >> derivatives depend on the direction. So along "x" you get > > |z|' = \partial |z| / \partial x = d |z| / d z + d |z| / d conjugate(z) = > conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) + z / (2*|z|) = Re(z) / |z| > > but along "y" you get: > > |z|' = \partial |z| / \partial i*y = d |z| / d z - d |z| / d conjugate(z) = > conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) - z / (2*|z|) = i*Im(z) / |z| > > So I get something completely different. It seems to me that we should forget about x and y. All we really need is |z|' = d |z| / d z = conjugate(z) / (2*|z|) and the appropriate algebraic properties of conjugate. > So which direction should be preferred in the CAS convention and why? > Well, um, you did write: "Because I would like to get d|x| / d x = x / |x| for real x". The constant 1/2 is irrelevant. Bill. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] trac milestone
Per the recent discussion I will not batch modify the milestone on the currently-open tickets. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: prime4commit and Sage
Got it. Its mildly interesting in that it uses Cunningham chains for proof-of-work instead of SHA-256, if you are into primes. Don't spend your 5 pennies (current exchange rate) all at once! ;-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct
> > > If person A verbally attacks person B, I still think it does not help to > show a *disapproving* reaction towards person A, because then A may feel > attacked, which may make his/her behaviour even worse, and which > wouldn't help B at all. Instead, I suggest to show a *supporting* reaction > towards person B, in order to make B stronger and prevent damage. > Yes, that is correct. Especially in the highly fragmented and open-to-misinterpretation text-only domain we live in. > Is this a well-known negative of open source development (resolving > disputes?) Has it been explored in journals? (I'm not well-read on whatever > literature there is on open source pro/con recently.) > RJF rjf, I (once again) *highly* recommend Steven Weber's http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674018587 "The Success of Open Source", in particular the chapters on self-governance in open source, as a place to start reading about this. There are also numerous articles in various collections on this issue, but somewhat surprisingly there is a lot of repetition - the researchers on this seem to focus on motivation and economic success, or other socio-economic issues, and less on the socio-political aspect which is just as important. There are also several mildly scholarly histories of e.g. Linux that go in far too much detail about the damage (and the good) that Torvald's personality does there. But there is certainly an abundance of anecdotal stuff regarding this out there, just not often well-organized - it comes in the midst of other discussions. And someone asked about RTM style comments - yes, we do get those, more's the pity, though Sage is pretty good about such things, largely thanks to the tone William set very early on. But there is still some of it, which is why at least having a non-penalty-based 'honor code' sort of "out there" could be useful as a place to gently remind people that we're not just working for the 20-odd people replying to this thread, but for hundreds or thousands watching. - kcrisman -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
> > But the naive approach proposed by the trio of mathematicians can lead > one into a false sense of security, because of the amount of code that > is published with a license that permits its incorporation into > closed-source software. I have shown, beyond any reasonable doubt, > that Mathematica 7.0.1 on Solaris used both GMP and ATLAS. > > There is also the possibility that two or more pieces of software make > use of an algorithm that is in itself flawed, or from a paper that has > a typo. > > Exactly. For instance, if the NAUTY/NICE algorithm for graph isomorphism had an algorithmic error, the fact that these are two different implementations would not be relevant. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
> > > > > If the AMS Notices is publishing papers that should instead be > > submitted to computer science publications > > (Software Practice and Experience comes to mind), should computer > > science journals publish > > papers on pure mathematics? > > Bear in mind that the Notices isn't a research journal. It publishes > expository articles, opinion pieces, and news-magazine style writing. > The submissions guidelines specifically state that discussion should be > geared toward non-experts. > > Though of course many of them aren't :) But your comment is correct, and indeed people have been getting kind of annoyed by a lot of the recent articles along those lines clearly not vetted by domain experts, esp. the one about chronology which is more cringeworthy than a good episode of The Office. However, it *does* get people talking about things! rjf, in this particular case it wasn't really appropriate for computer science at all - presumably CS folks are aware that you shouldn't always trust software! But a lot of math people, and *definitely* people who are users, not producers, of stats or modeling software, seem woefully unaware of this issue. So it was appropriate as a 'opinion-ish' piece to make people aware of the issue. - kcrisman -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: prime4commit and Sage
Yeah, I got one too. What is this about? Jonathan On Friday, November 14, 2014 8:51:03 AM UTC-6, kcrisman wrote: > > So I got this email today. Anybody else? > > > Hello, *** > > > You were tipped 0.05 XPM for your commit on Project sagemath/sage. > Please, log in and tell us your primecoin address to get it. > > > Your current balance is 0.05 XPM. If you don't enter a primecoin > address your tips will be returned to the project in 30 days. > > Thanks for contributing to Open Source! > > Apparently there is this thing that allows people to donate a certain > amount of some virtual currency called primecoin (like bitcoin, I guess?) > and then you can designate a certain percent of the amount to go to the > email address of people who make commits. > > But did Sage ever say we were doing this? Here's a quote from a reddit > page about this. > > *Make Sure You Read the Project Charter & Tipping Policies Before > Starting:* Project maintainers can refuse your commits for several > reasons. It is important to read the "Charter" of the project on its GitHub > page, which usually provides guidance on which commits and under what rules > they would be accepted. For example, there are very strict rules for > contributing to the official ppcoin/ppcoin project. A good way to ensure > the maintainer is willing to merge your changes is to first create an issue > explaining what you're going to do and ask if they would merge a pull > request. Wait for an answer before starting. The project owner can also > edit the Tipping Policies section on their Prime4Commit project page to > include more information on what kind of commits will be tipped. So it's > important to read both the project charter on GitHub and the tipping > policies that are listed on Prime4Commit. > > I don't know if it matters or not, but at the very least it seems a little > odd to implicitly support one particular virtual currency over another... > on the other hand, maybe the other ones don't like open source ;-) > > - kcrisman > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] prime4commit and Sage
So I got this email today. Anybody else? > Hello, *** > You were tipped 0.05 XPM for your commit on Project sagemath/sage. Please, log in and tell us your primecoin address to get it. > Your current balance is 0.05 XPM. If you don't enter a primecoin address your tips will be returned to the project in 30 days. > Thanks for contributing to Open Source! Apparently there is this thing that allows people to donate a certain amount of some virtual currency called primecoin (like bitcoin, I guess?) and then you can designate a certain percent of the amount to go to the email address of people who make commits. But did Sage ever say we were doing this? Here's a quote from a reddit page about this. *Make Sure You Read the Project Charter & Tipping Policies Before Starting:* Project maintainers can refuse your commits for several reasons. It is important to read the "Charter" of the project on its GitHub page, which usually provides guidance on which commits and under what rules they would be accepted. For example, there are very strict rules for contributing to the official ppcoin/ppcoin project. A good way to ensure the maintainer is willing to merge your changes is to first create an issue explaining what you're going to do and ask if they would merge a pull request. Wait for an answer before starting. The project owner can also edit the Tipping Policies section on their Prime4Commit project page to include more information on what kind of commits will be tipped. So it's important to read both the project charter on GitHub and the tipping policies that are listed on Prime4Commit. I don't know if it matters or not, but at the very least it seems a little odd to implicitly support one particular virtual currency over another... on the other hand, maybe the other ones don't like open source ;-) - kcrisman -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: Bug in abs(I*x).diff(x)
On 13 November 2014 14:47, maldun wrote: > > Although this has some sense in complex analysis one should be careful > with 'deriving' the absolute value, since it results in the weak derivative > ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_derivative) , which is in a broader sense > the derivative in the distribution sense. Yes, I first became interesting in Wirtinger derivatives in the context of distributions. > Thus we have infinite possible derivatives > Maybe it is better to the derivative of abs to be a partial function, i.e. just not defined everywhere. > With this expression it is indirectly forbidden to assign a specific value to > the unspecified value at zero: > Yes. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On Friday, November 14, 2014 5:05:20 AM UTC-8, Ursula Whitcher wrote: > > On 11/14/2014 3:05 AM, rjf wrote: > > > > If the AMS Notices is publishing papers that should instead be > > submitted to computer science publications > > (Software Practice and Experience comes to mind), should computer > > science journals publish > > papers on pure mathematics? > > Bear in mind that the Notices isn't a research journal. It publishes > expository articles, opinion pieces, and news-magazine style writing. > The submissions guidelines specifically state that discussion should be > geared toward non-experts. > I think the case here was that the authors, reviewers, and editors were non-experts. I hope that if the AMS publishes a response it will be authored, reviewed, and edited by experts in software, computer algebra systems, verification. The specifics of the mathematical problem and the algorithm are, I think, incidental, though perhaps others disagree. ? > > --Ursula. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 14 November 2014 09:22, Bruno Grenet wrote: > 2014-11-14 10:05 GMT+01:00 rjf : >> >> My point here is that an unenlightened and obscure part of a problem >> with one computer program has (I think mistakenly) been elevated to >> a discussion of mathematics, open source, computer program reliability, >> etc. It was probably not reviewed by any computer scientist with >> expertise in computer >> algebra systems. Should AMS publish a followup? Should it try to >> find appropriate reviewers this time? > > > I may precisely be because the article was not reviewed by someone with > expertise in computer science and thus because it was a very naive article > (at least I feel so, when the authors conclude that mathematicians should > use two distinct software to check their results!), that it would be a nice > thing to have a follow-up explaining precisely that the approach proposed in > the previous article was too naive and that there are solutions to behave in > a scientifically acceptable manner. > > Bruno I think Bruno has a good point. The fact the original article in a maths journal is quite flawed in some ways, does warrant a follow up comment. If you search the archives, you will see I contacted Wolfram Research, asking whether we could compare the output of Wolfram Alpha, and record that in the doc tests. They agreed - despite some saying they would ignore my request. So I am not totally against comparing software A to B. Using Wolfram Alpha is in some ways preferable to Mathematica, as it is free to use (or at least was). But the naive approach proposed by the trio of mathematicians can lead one into a false sense of security, because of the amount of code that is published with a license that permits its incorporation into closed-source software. I have shown, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Mathematica 7.0.1 on Solaris used both GMP and ATLAS. There is also the possibility that two or more pieces of software make use of an algorithm that is in itself flawed, or from a paper that has a typo. I personally think a follow up highlighting the danger of their proposed approach is actually more useful than documenting how a particular bug was corrected in Sage, and also has a far greater likelihood of being accepted for publication. Dave -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 11/14/2014 3:05 AM, rjf wrote: > > If the AMS Notices is publishing papers that should instead be > submitted to computer science publications > (Software Practice and Experience comes to mind), should computer > science journals publish > papers on pure mathematics? Bear in mind that the Notices isn't a research journal. It publishes expository articles, opinion pieces, and news-magazine style writing. The submissions guidelines specifically state that discussion should be geared toward non-experts. --Ursula. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct
I am in the [X ] Yes, this is a great idea. About time! camp... Some people are more intimidated by non-polite postings than others. I am aware of people who were quite turned off by aggressive language (and have been turned off of sage development because of it...think of Simon's example, and he is probably more thick skinned than most) and asking that everyone play nice is hardly a radical approach. While I agree with the sentiment that the right approach is to "not feed the troll," this works only in (say) 90% of the cases. What do you do with the other 10%? I hope that the community will speak up and say "hey, play nice" but often this doesn't happen when it should and even that might not be enough if the damage is already done. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Code of Conduct
On 13 November 2014 18:48, Volker Braun wrote: > and welcome everyone to > vote on it. > > > Code of Conduct > --- > If you believe someone is violating the code of conduct, we ask that you > report it by emailing sage-ab...@googlegroups.com. The group administrators > will consider the issue and explore resolutions. What will be the background of the "group administrators", and the people who receive posts from sage-ab...@googlegroups.com? Are these people going to have a background in human resources and/or be trained in this area? Dave -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct
Precisely last weekend i gave a talk about Sage in PyCon Spain, and one of the topics i discussed is how the project has been quite succesful in attracting users to become developpers. One of the key aspects there is the fact that usually we have a good atmosphere to discuss. Having a place like sage-flame where the discussions that may become a distraction can be moved to is a great idea. So, about the code of conduct, it sounds like a nice set of guidelines. But, do we really need it? I mean, has it been some hard conflict that i have not been aware of? I know that we have some trolling and flaming going on every once in a while, but it doesn't seem to have been harmful so far. In general, the discussion here is very respectfull (I haven't seen any RTFM answer to people asling for help, for instance). My impression is that the Sage community is nice for newcommers. We have done quite well so far without a code of conduct. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct
On Friday, November 14, 2014 10:57:49 AM UTC, Simon King wrote: > > Am Freitag, 14. November 2014 11:52:03 UTC+1 schrieb Volker Braun: >> >> Code of conduct should be understood akin to code of honor or code of >> ethics. >> > "a code without consequences strikes me as worse than no code at all." > I disagree, having a code of ethics is definitely valuable in my book. Everything has consequences (Newton's third law), but a code of ethics is not a law book with attached penalties. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct
Am Freitag, 14. November 2014 11:52:03 UTC+1 schrieb Volker Braun: > > Code of conduct should be understood akin to code of honor or code of > ethics. > John Perry stated: "Again, I like civilized discourse, but a code without consequences strikes me as worse than no code at all." And a code *with* consequences strikes me as worse than no code at all, too. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:37:40 PM UTC, Simon King wrote: > > [...] which is why I am > strongly against a code of conduct that has the status of enforceable law > within our community. Its a bit of a German peculiarity that we don't have a concept of rules that aren't enforced by law until everyone is forced to adhere to them to the letter. The (garden) allotment constitution allows only two lawn ornaments, so if you don't remove your third garden gnome immediately then we'll call the police and have it destroyed... Code of conduct should be understood akin to code of honor or code of ethics. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Code of Conduct
Am Freitag, 14. November 2014 07:38:27 UTC+1 schrieb Simon King: > > As it has been said by (IIRC) Jan, it is important that authorities set > a good example. > Sorry, it was Robert's post. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 2014-11-13 22:17, Ursula Whitcher wrote: 2^23, so the largest prime number is 8388593. This is fixed as in "the old, bad constant", rather than "an improved bound which fixed the problem", right? I meant "fixed" as synonym for "constant". Let me try to explain it one more time: (1) *very old situation*: (i) Determinants of dimension n over GF(p) are computed using LinBox for p <= f(n). If p > f(n), they are computed by lifting to ZZ. (ii) Determinants of dimension n > 50 over ZZ are computed with a multi-modular algorithm by reducing mod primes p with p <= f(n) (but p close to f(n)) (2) *broken situation after LinBox upgrade*: (i) Determinants of dimension n over GF(p) are computed using LinBox for p <= C. If p > C, they are computed by lifting to ZZ. (ii) Determinants of dimension n > 50 over ZZ are computed with a multi-modular algorithm by reducing mod primes p with p <= f(n) (but p close to f(n)). Note that this is broken in the case that C < f(n): given a matrix over ZZ, in (ii) we pick a prime C < p <= f(n) and compute the determinant mod p to apply a multi-modular algorithm. By (i), this determinant is computed by lifting to ZZ. This is an infinite loop. The constant C equals 2^23. The condition C < f(n) is equivalent to n <= 63. For n >= 64, we have C >= f(n) and there is no problem. (3) *fixed situation after #14032*: (i) Determinants of dimension n over GF(p) are computed using LinBox for p <= C. If p > C, they are computed by lifting to ZZ. (ii) Determinants of dimension n > 50 over ZZ are computed with a multi-modular algorithm by reducing mod primes p with p <= C (but p close to C) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Code of Conduct
Hi William, Am Donnerstag, 13. November 2014 20:00:58 UTC+1 schrieb William: > > [ ] No, I greatly value the freedom to spout offensive profanity, and > will fork Sage in frustration if there is such a code. I think you misunderstand the motivation for not wanting any published code of conduct. I do *not* want to have an official code of conduct, because I *do* want to have civilised manners in our community. To my understanding, what Volker suggests is as follows: Some people formulate and establish a law for the community. The same people claim that an offence to the law occurs. The same people investigate on it. The same people judge on it. And the same people eventually enforce the law. Needless to say that these people have no training whatsoever that would qualify them for any of these tasks, and moreover they have a personal interest. You may observe that the situation at schools is quite similar. Note that in civilised countries there must(!) be a clear distinction between legislative, judiciary, and executive, a special training is required in each of these branches, and their actions must not be driven by personal interest. Having such a separation would, from my perspective, be the only acceptable way of having an official code of conduct. But I suppose most developers wouldn't like to quit writing code and studying law instead. (We really do > want to know if there are any developers who would quit working on > Sage if we have this Code of Conduct; I would not *immediately* quit working on Sage if we had any official code of conduct. However, I do think that establishing an official enforceable code of conduct is presumptuous, and I would expect that it can be instrumented to do harm. And by Murphy's law it *will* eventually be instrumented to do harm. And then I *would* quit. I just want > people to think -- having a code of conduct isn't _obviously_ the > right thing to do.) > I think that an official code of conduct is rather obviously *not* the right thing to have. A code of conduct has a high likelihood of doing nothing more than "stating the obvious", and this might actually encourage some people (including myself) to start misbehaving, just in order to break the chains. It would all do more harm than good. As I stated in a previous post: A couple of years ago I was attacked, some person even posted a patch on trac that would have added a personally insulting comment into the Sage code. The reaction of the community, and especially of you, William, has been excellent: You encouraged me, on and off list, and nobody has fed the troll. When he did not get an exciting reaction, he tried to rampage a bit more, but his stampede ended in a vacuum, and thus he eventually disappeared. In other words, I can confirm that it does work when an authority (based on merits, I mean) sets a good example. So, I encourage all of us: If an offence happens, then please please take care of the person who is offended, but greatly ignore the offender. If ignoring the offender has no effect, then we are likely in a situation where "real" law applies. But then it's the department of public prosecution. Best regards, Simon -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
2014-11-14 10:05 GMT+01:00 rjf : > My point here is that an unenlightened and obscure part of a problem > with one computer program has (I think mistakenly) been elevated to > a discussion of mathematics, open source, computer program reliability, > etc. It was probably not reviewed by any computer scientist with > expertise in computer > algebra systems. Should AMS publish a followup? Should it try to > find appropriate reviewers this time? > I may precisely be because the article was not reviewed by someone with expertise in computer science and thus because it was a very naive article (at least I feel so, when the authors conclude that mathematicians should use two distinct software to check their results!), that it would be a nice thing to have a follow-up explaining precisely that the approach proposed in the previous article was too naive and that there are solutions to behave in a scientifically acceptable manner. Bruno -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
If the AMS Notices is publishing papers that should instead be submitted to computer science publications (Software Practice and Experience comes to mind), should computer science journals publish papers on pure mathematics? In fact they sometimes do [e.g. There's a hacked-up piece of obscure pure mathematics X that has an uninteresting algorithmic aspect to it, and some computer programmer "implemented" it, so please publish this as a contribution to computer science. Not having any reviewers with expertise in X, it gets published..] My point here is that an unenlightened and obscure part of a problem with one computer program has (I think mistakenly) been elevated to a discussion of mathematics, open source, computer program reliability, etc. It was probably not reviewed by any computer scientist with expertise in computer algebra systems. Should AMS publish a followup? Should it try to find appropriate reviewers this time? I hope that my frankness somehow falls within the proposd guidelines of the recenty proposed Code of Conduct. Sorry if it doesn't. RJF -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Code of Conduct
To the extent that a code of conduct looks like an attempt to limit freedom of speech, it may be counterproductive. It is possible to legislate "politeness" by moderating newsgroups. I suppose it is possible to resolve disagreements about the course of open software development by (a) achieving consensus (b) force (imposition of some authority to make decisions) or (c) forking a project. Is this a well-known negative of open source development (resolving disputes?) Has it been explored in journals? (I'm not well-read on whatever literature there is on open source pro/con recently.) RJF On Thursday, November 13, 2014 10:40:00 PM UTC-8, john_perry_usm wrote: > > On Friday, November 14, 2014 3:55:34 AM UTC+1, Travis Scrimshaw wrote: >> >> Bullying can get so bad that the teachers need to step in and enact the >> correct punishment. >> > > ...yet, in my experience, they usually don't, and often because the > bullies are likable, or socially influential (e.g., son of the > superintendent/major donor, comes from "a good family"), etc. Sometimes a > teacher can unintentionally make a student feel like s/he is bullying her > or him. "Speech codes" are sometimes used simply to shut down debate on > topics that become culturally unfashionable, and are often applied > unevenly. I personally prefer civilized discourse, but I've also noticed > that Western society seems to have adopted an undercurrent of thin-skinned > outrage. > > If someone wanted to add a patch that verifiably improved the performance > of Sage on [insert your favorite subsystem here], what would you do if her > or his comments were frequently abusive toward other contributors, or > previous contributions? i.e., profanity-laced, derogatory, etc. Not the > code itself, mind, just the comments in the trac ticket and/or discussion > in sage-devel. Presumably, someone would take her/ him aside & talk to him, > but what if (as often happens) that person ignored the intervention & > continued to heap abuse on you? Would you reject the patch? > > If not, what's the point of the proposed code? Again, I like civilized > discourse, but a code without consequences strikes me as worse than no code > at all. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
