[scots-l] Another dumb question?
On our local San Francisco Scottish Fiddlers mail list a question came up that is driving me crazy; I should be able to figure this out but can't. Someone asked whether a grace note is played on the beat, or ahead of the beat. I maintained that for dance or march music a strong beat is wanted and a grace note should be played ahead of the beat, so the beat comes on the main note of the melody. I thought this was obvious, but then someone else who is classically trained expressed just the opposite opinion, that the ornament takes away from the following note, not the previous one! I've been playing tunes this evening trying to figure out what I really do and can't figure it out! Help! -- Steve Wyrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Anselm Lingnau wrote: (Nigel, I think, wrote) >> As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why >> on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they >> dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat >> remains the same, doesn't it? > > Nope. Most SCD dance steps are composed of four separate »actions« (such > as »hop-step-close-step« or »step-beat-beat-hold«). Simplifying things > somewhat for the sake of argument, in reel time, these actions take > place on beats 1, 2, 3, 4 of a bar (assuming 4/4, common or cut-common > time), and in jig time on beats 1, 3, 4, and 6. Right, that's what I was trying to get at. The difference is subtle enough that some dancers don't notice it until it's pointed out to them (even though they may be unconsciously making the adjustment to the different rhythm). Anselm (or anyone else), this is probably a dumb question, but having never devised a dance myself, how does a devisor decide if a dance should be a jig or a reel? Are there figures that work better for one or the other or is it just a matter of personal preference? I suppose this is really a question for the strathspey list! -Steve -- Steve Wyrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- Concord, California Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Name of pipe strathspey
On Wednesday 06 February 2002 20:26, Toby Rider wrote: > Does anyone know the name of the pipe strathspey that Brendan plays > right after Dusky Meadow, but before the John Campbell reel in this set: > > > http://barra.tullochgorm.com/mp3s/scottish/MabouRidgeSet.mp3 > > I can't put a name to this tune! Thanks! > > Toby Pretty Marion Wendy Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Name of pipe strathspey
Does anyone know the name of the pipe strathspey that Brendan plays right after Dusky Meadow, but before the John Campbell reel in this set: http://barra.tullochgorm.com/mp3s/scottish/MabouRidgeSet.mp3 I can't put a name to this tune! Thanks! Toby Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Nigel Gatherer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I think as you said we need Anselm or David South to come in with their > thoughts now. SCD strathspeys are at 116 »ticks« per minute or so if you let your metronome tick four times per bar. (I'm desperately trying to avoid the issue of »beats« to the bar -- the SCD teacher in me says that the strathspey step is really four beats rather than two. Marches have two beats per bar but not strathspeys, and with the strathspey there is a big emphasis on the 1 and a not-so-big one on the 3). 32 bars (that is, 128 »ticks«) of strathspey time at SCD speed take somewhat more than a minute or so, so you can take it from there. 116 is really quite zippy already -- except for Glasgow Highlanders, which is played a good bit faster, and some other dances involving Highland setting steps, such as »Schiehallion« or the »Garry Strathspey«. > As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why > on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they > dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat > remains the same, doesn't it? Nope. Most SCD dance steps are composed of four separate »actions« (such as »hop-step-close-step« or »step-beat-beat-hold«). Simplifying things somewhat for the sake of argument, in reel time, these actions take place on beats 1, 2, 3, 4 of a bar (assuming 4/4, common or cut-common time), and in jig time on beats 1, 3, 4, and 6. The RSCDS sells a nice book called »Any good tune«, by Muriel A. Johnstone (who as some of you may be aware of is the doyenne of RSCDS-style SCD music) which is targeted at beginning SCD musicians and contains a nice selection of well-known and useful country dance tunes, arranged for piano. The introduction to that book gives various hints about playing SCD music, including tempo specifications, and it says: »Tempos vary greatly according to different situations and different preferences. A metronome marking lying between = 104 and = 112 for reel time = 104 and = 116 for strathspey time = 104 and = 112 for jig time would cover most dancers' needs from the expert demonstration dancer to young children learning; from a formal ball to a barn dance. Tempo is not something that should become an obsession since music that has powerful rhythm and good lift swings along and brings the dancers with it, even at a relaxed speed. [...] It is important to remember that a VERY SLIGHT [Muriel's emphasis] alteration in the speed of the music can make an enormous difference to the dancers. [...] If you notice people struggling to balance and dancing ahead of the music then the speed is too slow. If the dancers are repeatedly late for the next figure of the dance and look rushed and ungainly with a loss of any accuracy in the steps, then your music is too fast.« Mind you that this is, more or less, the official RSCDS position. You will find very popular dance bands who take their strathspeys rather a lot quicker than the suggested 116, and I have a recording of another very famous and popular band whose rendition of the 8x32 »strathspey«, The Duchess Tree, clocks in at something like 9'20", which is *way* too slow even from the RSCDS perspective. Anselm -- Anselm Lingnau .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think that, as life is action and passion, it is required of a man that he should share the passion and action of his time at peril of being judged not to have lived.-- Oliver Wendell Holmes Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Nigel Gatherer wrote: > As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why > on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they > dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat > remains the same, doesn't it? Actually, it does matter a bit. As Ian has pointed out (referring to strathspey steps, but it applies to most of the steps used in dancing to reels and jigs as well), a step has four "bits", roughly step-close-step-and; and where they fit on the music is different for reel and for jig. (It's right that the "step" bits come on what you refer to as the "beats" if I'm understanding properly; but the other bits matter.) I believe that's the main reason that jig music is preferred for teaching the "skip-change-of-step", and reel for the "pas de basque". In the end, both steps have to be done to either kind of music, and _should_ be slightly different depending on the music. Enjoying the discussion, Peter McClure Winnipeg, MB Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: New ballad enquiry
Hi David, Wow! This is also very helpful. Thank you so much. I already had your "Colours of Lichen" on my list, but your other suggestions are new to me. Your work is wonderful, by the way. Could you possibly send me a copy of the new lyrics? That would be just great. Best, Ellen David Francis wrote: > No one else has mentioned it so far, so I thought I'd better! > > Mairi Campbell and I made a song a few years back called 'The Piper and the > Maker' (music by Mairi, words by me) which seems to go down well whenever we > perform it. We recorded it on our album 'Colours of Lichen' under our nom > de stage of The Cast (Culburnie CUL109). There are one or two lines in the > recorded version that have been improved, and I could pass these on to you, > Ellen, if you want to take it any further. > > You might want to check out a recent album by Ashley Hutchings on Topic > Records where he has attempted to re-present ballad story-lines in modern > contexts. (Guest performers include Dick Gaughan) Opinions vary on the > success of this, but I think it's an interesting road to explore. > > Otherwise I'd certainly second the suggestions made so far: other stuff > worth looking out for is some of the work of John Tams, Pete Morton, Stan > Rogers and Davy Steele (esp. the latter's The Ballad of Jimmy Steele, and > the Heroes of St Valery). > > Best wishes > David Francis > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To >subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Thought I'd put in my 2 cents. Strathspeys, as danced by RSCDS dancers, are done with two beats to the measure, thus 60 is about correct, although a little bit slow in my experience (I would usually figure about 62 for a strthspey.) Reels and jigs are danced, again, as two beats per measure, but nearly twice as fast, so 112-118 would be about right. However, highland strathspeys and Cape Breton strathspeys are usually 4 beats per measure, and are thus twice as fast or faster. In Cape Breton stepdancing, dancers often start up with a strathspey and go into the reel. The beat for the reel is usually slower than the beat for the strathspey at the time of transition. Of course, what I've indicated is true regardless of how the tune is notated. It's the beat per measure that counts. John, who plays for dancers from time to time. Nigel Gatherer wrote: >OK, time to get serious. Thanks to everyone who has commented on this >subject. I'm now reading J Murdoch Henderson (JMM) [1] on the subject >(which is just a little more than my brain can handle!), and I'm trying >to get it down. > >All the below assumes a metronome beat equals a crotchet or quarter >note unless otherwise specified. > >STRATHSPEYS >Jeffrey Friedman says they dance Strathspeys at 60. I'm not a dancer, >but musically that seems VERY slow to me [3]. JMM states the limits as >between 160 and 188. That upper limit seems fast to me, but nothing >compared to the 202 reached in some Cape Breton recordings [2]. Now to >Jimmy Shand and his Band; listening to a few Shand Strathspeys gives >measurements of 130, 133 139, 139, 141 and 142; this seems right to me >as a musician, but I can't speak for a dancer. Alastair Hardie's count >of 126-138 seems to concur. > >REELS (half-note measurements in brackets) >The mistake I made when I raised this was not stating/realising that >the reels in question would be notated in 2/4, so if we assume all >reels to be in 4/4, Hardie's figures become 216-232 (108-116), and >JMM's recommendation is 240-252 (120-126). Now you can see why they use >minims or half-notes - my metronome doesn't go higher than 250. Playing >"The Barrowburn Reel" at 240 (120) seems fine - I think I might take it >a touch slower, but I tend to favour playing slower rather than faster. >Shand plays reels around 250, while Cape Breton reels are between >192-250 (96-125) [2], which concurs with the other figures.. > >Anyway, the upshot is that it's all clear to me now. I can put together >a table of lower and upper limits which will relate to dance speeds. >Thanks again to everyone for helping. > >[1] Flowers of Scottish Melody, 1935 >[2] ...as notated in 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton' >Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg >[3] Jeffrey - are you sure it's not half-note measurements you mean? > Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Re: New ballad enquiry
No one else has mentioned it so far, so I thought I'd better! Mairi Campbell and I made a song a few years back called 'The Piper and the Maker' (music by Mairi, words by me) which seems to go down well whenever we perform it. We recorded it on our album 'Colours of Lichen' under our nom de stage of The Cast (Culburnie CUL109). There are one or two lines in the recorded version that have been improved, and I could pass these on to you, Ellen, if you want to take it any further. You might want to check out a recent album by Ashley Hutchings on Topic Records where he has attempted to re-present ballad story-lines in modern contexts. (Guest performers include Dick Gaughan) Opinions vary on the success of this, but I think it's an interesting road to explore. Otherwise I'd certainly second the suggestions made so far: other stuff worth looking out for is some of the work of John Tams, Pete Morton, Stan Rogers and Davy Steele (esp. the latter's The Ballad of Jimmy Steele, and the Heroes of St Valery). Best wishes David Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Nigel Gatherer wrote: | David Francis wrote: | > ...Jimmy Shand was renowned for his ability to hit the right tempo | > and keep it ticking along...Beware the early Shand recordings though. | > They go at an unbelievable lick. One theory is that this was to | > accommodate the limited recording space available on the old shellac | > records. Or maybe it was the wildness of youth | | I think the latter, Dave. I remember reading that it was at a | particular point in his career, after the Beltona recordings I think, | that Jimmy decided to study tempi and made a big effort to get it right | from then on. Or you could blame earlier recording artists such as the | Wyper Brothers; it's fairly obvious that Shand listened to their 78s a | great deal. Something else to take into consideration is the sloppiness of the recording industry with regards to tempos. I've heard re-releases of old recordings whose tempo differs by 10% or more. This is a big difference to dancers and musicians, but not to recording companies. It explains some of the strange keys that you find on recordings. Sometimes you can ask the original artists what key they played it in and adjust your variable-speed player to get that key. Otherwise, you really don't know. (You do have variable speed record and cassette and CD players, don't you? ;-) Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
RE: [scots-l] Tempi
Hi Wendy, Nigel, > On Wednesday 06 February 2002 06:06, Nigel Gatherer wrote: > > > > STRATHSPEYS > > Jeffrey Friedman says they dance Strathspeys at 60. I'm not a dancer, > > but musically that seems VERY slow to me [3]. JMM states the limits as > > between 160 and 188. That upper limit seems fast to me, but nothing > > compared to the 202 reached in some Cape Breton recordings [2]. Now to > > Jimmy Shand and his Band; listening to a few Shand Strathspeys gives > > measurements of 130, 133 139, 139, 141 and 142; this seems right to me > > as a musician, but I can't speak for a dancer. Alastair Hardie's count > > of 126-138 seems to concur. > > > [1] Flowers of Scottish Melody, 1935 > > [2] ...as notated in 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton' > > Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg > > [3] Jeffrey - are you sure it's not half-note measurements you mean? > > Nigel - Jeff was referring to Scottish Country Dance strathspeys, not Cape > Breton. For SCD aren't the strathspeys supposed to be counted two to the bar, > rather than four to the bar as in Cape Breton? I *can* tell you that if you > tap your foot for four downbeats the SCD teacher is almost certain to tell > you you're playing it "wrong" because it's not what they need. Ian, Anselm?? Hmm. I can't really speak from a musician's point of view here. As a dancer, the beats are "1, 2, 3, and", which corresponds to step, close, step, pull through. The first and third beats are definitely the key ones in the step, and I can see how counting in minims might help get the emphasis right. RSCDS recommendations for strathspeys (sudden memories returning) are 112-116; [1] I suspect if I was to dance to music played at 126-138 I'd feel like I was running (though 112 and below is probably starting to get laboured and wobbly...depending on the band, of course...) Ian [1] The Manual of Scottish Country Dancing, RSCDS -- IndigoVision Ltd http://www.indigovision.com/ The Edinburgh Technopole, Bush Loan, Edinburgh, EH26 0PJ Tel: [+44] (0)131 475 7234 Fax: [+44] (0)131 475 7201 Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.scottishdance.net Feed the world: http://www.thehungersite.com/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Wendy Galovich wrote: > Nigel - Jeff was referring to Scottish Country Dance strathspeys, not > Cape Breton. For SCD aren't the strathspeys supposed to be counted > two to the bar, rather than four to the bar as in Cape Breton? That's what I'm guessing, Wendy. Jeffrey specifically said quarter notes, however, which is why I asked. I think as you said we need Anselm or David South to come in with their thoughts now. As for dancers not knowing the difference between a reel and a jig: why on earth should they? I can't see that it's very relevant to how they dance. One plays 2 or 4 notes to the beat, the other 3, but the beat remains the same, doesn't it? On a final note, here's J Murdoch Henderson again: "1. To calculate from the metronome beat of an air...the number of seconds required to render any given part of it: multiply by 60 the number of beats in the part played, then divide by the metronome beat number. e.g. Time required to play once through a strathspey at 160 is 64x60/160=24 seconds. "2. To calculate the metronome beat of an air from the number of seconds required to play any given part of it: multiply by 60 the number of beats in the part played, then divide by the number of seconds required to play that part. e.g. Metronome beat of a reel played once through in 16 seconds is 32x60/16=120..." You can picture it, can't you, a couple of traditional musicians with pencil and paper, scratching their heads, saying "Ach Archie, Ah dinna see hoo we can dae a Glasgow Highlanders, the numbers jist dinna mak sense." "Havers, Dod. Ye've timesed it insteed o' takin' awa the number ye first thocht o'. Hing it a', jist tap yer bliddy foot, man, an' be done wi' it!" -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
David Francis wrote: > ...Jimmy Shand was renowned for his ability to hit the right tempo > and keep it ticking along...Beware the early Shand recordings though. > They go at an unbelievable lick. One theory is that this was to > accommodate the limited recording space available on the old shellac > records. Or maybe it was the wildness of youth I think the latter, Dave. I remember reading that it was at a particular point in his career, after the Beltona recordings I think, that Jimmy decided to study tempi and made a big effort to get it right from then on. Or you could blame earlier recording artists such as the Wyper Brothers; it's fairly obvious that Shand listened to their 78s a great deal. -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
On Wednesday 06 February 2002 06:06, Nigel Gatherer wrote: > > STRATHSPEYS > Jeffrey Friedman says they dance Strathspeys at 60. I'm not a dancer, > but musically that seems VERY slow to me [3]. JMM states the limits as > between 160 and 188. That upper limit seems fast to me, but nothing > compared to the 202 reached in some Cape Breton recordings [2]. Now to > Jimmy Shand and his Band; listening to a few Shand Strathspeys gives > measurements of 130, 133 139, 139, 141 and 142; this seems right to me > as a musician, but I can't speak for a dancer. Alastair Hardie's count > of 126-138 seems to concur. > [1] Flowers of Scottish Melody, 1935 > [2] ...as notated in 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton' > Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg > [3] Jeffrey - are you sure it's not half-note measurements you mean? Nigel - Jeff was referring to Scottish Country Dance strathspeys, not Cape Breton. For SCD aren't the strathspeys supposed to be counted two to the bar, rather than four to the bar as in Cape Breton? I *can* tell you that if you tap your foot for four downbeats the SCD teacher is almost certain to tell you you're playing it "wrong" because it's not what they need. Ian, Anselm?? Wendy Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Tempi
OK, time to get serious. Thanks to everyone who has commented on this subject. I'm now reading J Murdoch Henderson (JMM) [1] on the subject (which is just a little more than my brain can handle!), and I'm trying to get it down. All the below assumes a metronome beat equals a crotchet or quarter note unless otherwise specified. STRATHSPEYS Jeffrey Friedman says they dance Strathspeys at 60. I'm not a dancer, but musically that seems VERY slow to me [3]. JMM states the limits as between 160 and 188. That upper limit seems fast to me, but nothing compared to the 202 reached in some Cape Breton recordings [2]. Now to Jimmy Shand and his Band; listening to a few Shand Strathspeys gives measurements of 130, 133 139, 139, 141 and 142; this seems right to me as a musician, but I can't speak for a dancer. Alastair Hardie's count of 126-138 seems to concur. REELS (half-note measurements in brackets) The mistake I made when I raised this was not stating/realising that the reels in question would be notated in 2/4, so if we assume all reels to be in 4/4, Hardie's figures become 216-232 (108-116), and JMM's recommendation is 240-252 (120-126). Now you can see why they use minims or half-notes - my metronome doesn't go higher than 250. Playing "The Barrowburn Reel" at 240 (120) seems fine - I think I might take it a touch slower, but I tend to favour playing slower rather than faster. Shand plays reels around 250, while Cape Breton reels are between 192-250 (96-125) [2], which concurs with the other figures.. Anyway, the upshot is that it's all clear to me now. I can put together a table of lower and upper limits which will relate to dance speeds. Thanks again to everyone for helping. [1] Flowers of Scottish Melody, 1935 [2] ...as notated in 'Traditional Celtic Violin Music of Cape Breton' Kate Dunlay and David Greenberg [3] Jeffrey - are you sure it's not half-note measurements you mean? -- Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/ Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
