Re: [scots-l] Skinner's Colours
- Original Message - From: "Toby Rider" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2003 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [scots-l] Skinner's Colours Toby Rider wrote: > It's interesting how keys have totally different tonal > characteristics on different instruments.. Example, the key of E has > very different tonal qualities on the fiddle, the guitar, the banjo, the > piano, the flute or the voice. > I think his observations reflect the physical characteristics of the > fiddle. Different methods of tone production seem to give different > character to the same notes in the same keys on different instruments. > Then again, it could all be hot air.. Which was all know J.S. Skinner > had plenty of.. :-) There are many reasons why different instruments, even different string instruments sound different in the same key. First, the unplucked, unbowed strings contribute significantly to the overall sound and they are tuned differently, guitar Vs fiddle say. Also guitars have many different tunings, presumably a specific tuning being "better" even for one tune Vs. another in the same key. Secondly there is a significant difference between the sound produced by a string which is allowed to vibrate freely, [damped or natural vibration] such as a piano of a plucked instrument and the sound produced by a bowed instrument such as the fiddle where the string is being continuously excited. There are many other reasons, for example, type of wood, shape thickness,etc,etc. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Question on modes
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [scots-l] Question on modes > > > > I think you're a mixing up key-mode with scale. > > Not as much mixing them up as trying to avoid doing so... I know that mode > and key signature are not the same thing -- I'm trying to find out how the > "oh-so-natural" just intonation of classical violin works with fiddle's > modes (compared to key signatures). I've spent some time comparing just > intonation with equal temperament. It was really obvious really quickly > that there is a real difference with those two, which made me start > wondering if I had perfect intonation (as a classical violinist would > define "perfect"), how someone with perfect pitch and a good understanding > of modes would think I played. You raise a complex question. Here's my take on it: There are 36 frequencies per octave in the just intonation scale. Which 12 or 8 or 5 etc you utilize in a given tune is determined by the starting point, the tonic or key note. But this is only the beginning. The scale [intervals] must then be flexible so that the consonant intervals can to be maintained at that their correct size [as defined by the just intonation scale] whatever their position in the scale and so that melodic intervals may vary in size; i.e., the notes must be mutable. The intonation of "passing" notes is altered so as to achieve the above. Then there are the vagaries of the human auditory system. What the ear "hears" is called the pitch of the note. While pitch is mostly determined by frequency, it is also dependent on intensity [loudness], waveform [harmonic content] and time duration of the note. It can vary from frequency by as much as a whole tone. On a violin/fiddle, for example, pitch can be altered by changing bow pressure, or speed or point of contact on the string or combinations of the above with no change in the "stopped" finger on the string. How to achieve good intonation!! I don't think it is easy. Some suggestions I've read. Spend lots of time practicing all the scales, boring but indispensable I'm told. Lionel Turtis suggests always playing the tonic note against an open string when beginning or when changing keys so as to get the starting point precisely right. One of the best Cape Breton fiddlers of the last century not only did what Turtis suggested, he also did a scale or two and a few arpeggios, particularly when changing from "fiddle" keys to the flat keys, no doubt to re-acquaint his fingers and hand to the new spatial requirements and his ears to the significantly different sound in the flat keys brought about by the overtone pitches produced by the unbowed open strings being both loud and many multiples of the tonic as opposed to thirds, fifths,etc on the fiddle keys. If you play mostly open strings as many fiddlers do, you of course will not be able to alter those passing notes as suggested above. That is less of a problem in the fiddle keys. Incidentally that is one of the reasons violinists do not use open strings. I don't think the above is altered by whether the tune is major, minor, modal, hexatonic, heptatonic, pentatonic, double tonic etc. I also don't think it is altered by "ethnicity" which is sometimes used to explain differences, or to put it more bluntly to justify playing out of tune. Electronic measuring devices are useful provided that one bears in mind that they measure frequency not pitch and it is pitch which the musician must get right. The only true measuring device for this is the "trained" ear. Lionel Turtis says we must not only listen but listen intently, [he points out that there is " a vast difference between listening and listening intently"]. Most of us, he says, have "good ears" and are capable of and can attain good intonation but then adds that many do not. Here is a quote from Lionel Turtis; "A 'good' ear can become permanently perverted by negligent, superficial, non-penetrative listening on the part of the performer. This inattention to one's faculty of hearing is a vice of such rapid growth that in a very short time the player accepts faulty intonation with equanimity, eventually becoming quite unconscious that he is playing out of tune". The problem obviously is a serious one in the violin as well as the fiddle world. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] acoustics question
Re Toby's question on "feedback" I'm going to venture an opinion of this from an engineering view point [ I am a retired member of that profession] All "structures" have a natural vibrating frequency. They can be very destructive in such things as buildings and bridges or just troublesome in musical instruments. The most famous destructive example is the the Tacoma Narrows Bridge [Washington State?] where the bridge self distracted because the geographic area, prevailing wind speed, etc., combined to produce a frequency which was the same as that of the bridge. It is quite dramatic to see [its all on film] six foot "I" beams twist like a ribbon in the wind. Musical instruments like other structures also have a natural frequency at which the wood vibrates. An acoustic instrument, I think, would be more susceptible to this than would say a solid body guitar because the latter's natural frequency would tend to be out of range of much or most of the musical frequency spectrum than would the former. When the instruments natural frequency is amplified it "feeds back" that frequency to the instrument causing it to vibrate more and more and would self destruct like the Tacoma Narrows Bridge were there sufficient sustained energy. In recognition of this problem some amps are equipped with a "notch filter" which allows you to find your instruments natural frequency and then to suppress it. Usually this can be done without too adversely affecting the overall sound. Another helpful feature in some amps is phase reversal which doesn't suppress the frequency but causes them to be unsynchronized. Re your friend's modifying his instrument. Any modification will change its natural frequency. That will eliminate the troublesome frequency but not necessarily the problem. The natural frequency will shift to another frequency which could be just as much of a problem. It would also change the overall sound of the instrument, particularily a violin which has so many intense harmonics all of which would be influenced by this. I hope this is helpful, Toby Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempos
Re Toby Rider and Sue Richards comments on traditional music and musicianship. I have been listening to and studying Cape Breton fiddle music for over 60 years now. The best known CB fiddlers over that period of time were those with the highest skills on the instrument, without a single exception. There is almost universal acceptance as to who these players are [were] and that they are "traditional" players. As J. S. Skinner said and I quoted in my last e-mail: "An artist must be richly endowed by nature, but he must subject himself for a time to the rules and restrictions of technical art. From these some performers never escape, but a really great artist soars away into a region of freedom after his apprenticeship to art. The shackles to which he submitted are for him no longer 'bonds, but wings' " Or stating it another way, putting feeling or expression into music, traditional of otherwise, requires many skills; the more skills you've got, the more scope there is for feeling and expressions. An abundance of skills doesn't guarantee feeling or expression but a lack of them guarantees neither will be present. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempos/Competitions/Clasical Training/Rules/Practicing/etc.
Re recent e-mails on the above subjects: I think J. S. Skinner in "A Guide to Bowing" 'hit the nail on the head' when he wrote: "An artist must be richly endowed by nature, but he must subject himself for a time to the rules and restrictions of technical art. From these some performers never escape, but a really great artist soars away into a region of freedom after his apprenticeship to art. The shackles to which he submitted are for him no longer 'bonds, but wings'. "that which makes him [an artist] a living, moving power is not only personal aptitude, but a long apprenticeship to rule and method which lies like hidden machinery behind the outward final result. This previous training, which is indispensable in all forms of art, is an essential requisite for attaining excellence in strathspey playing. It is quite true indeed that there is a scarcely any form of music where the personal element has freer scope for its manifestation than in playing strathspeys. The written text gives no adequate idea of the effect which a masterly rendering produces. To the dexterity acquired by training and practice there is superadded the inborn fervour and faculty of the performer. "But this ought not discourage the neophyte. He should consider that, as one indispensable element of success, he must first overcome the mechanical difficulties of performance, become expert in all the technical details of fingering and bowing, which are peculiar to the strathspey; and when this has been accomplished, he may follow the bent of his genius..." Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Announce: Kelso Folk Club Jan 10
Toby Rider wrote: Jack Campin wrote: >> For most fiddlers, thousands of miles away isn't the distance that >> matters, it's the distance to three flats... >> > Same for guitarists, Jack, so thanks for giving my capo some work! > Yes, sometimes that can be quite a long journey to 3 flats :-) True, but oh! the incomparable sound of the fiddle in three flats. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] lift the bow off the strings?
Toby Wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I've heard Alex Francis MacKay do that trick now and again. I noticed him doing that the time that I visited him. I copied that trick for a few tunes I picked up off of him. Just to make it sound more like the way he was playing them. However I don't use that kind of bowing often enough to remember doing it. :-) Or maybe I do, but I don't think about it because I started doing it in an attempt to copy what I was hearing, as opposed to consciously thinking about the bowing technique which was required in order to get that sound. It does have a cool sound. My comment: You are correct. Alex Francis does use that bowing. It is clearrly the most dominant feature of a style of playing variously referred to in Cape Breton as the "Mabou", or the "Mabou Mines" or in Mabou itself as the "Coal Mines" style. While it was most dominant in the Mabou area, it was not exclusinvely so as you point out. Alex Francis lives about 60 kilometers away which doesn't seem like much today but which, in his formative years, would be half a world away. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] lift the bow off the strings?
Kate wrote: In Irish music, I have either played notes with an up or down bow, or slurred several notes on a single bow stroke, but I've never heard of a 'straight slur' where you briefly stop then continue in the same bow direction. It's supposed to sound very staccato. But it doesn't mention in the book if it is acceptable to lift the bow off the strings! I don't know if it's ever acceptable to lift the bow off the strings, so I wanted to write and see if any of you knew whether or not it's okay. It's much easier to bow the 'straight slur' this way, instead of remaining on the strings for the pause. Pardon my ignorance, but I'm completely self taught, there are no fiddle teachers in my area. < I must be getting better though--my dog doesn't leave the room when I practice anymore!! My comment. You might be interested in the straight slur/up-driven bow comments in the introduction to the following collections: Richard Carlin's "The Gow Collection of Scottish Dance Music" J. Murdoch Henderson's "Flowers of Scottish Melody" and James Hunter's "The Fiddle Music of Scotland". Carlin's description of Niel Gow's "up-driven bow" is of particular interest. He uses a typical strathspey four note cluster consisting of a sixteenth note followed by a dottted eight, another dotted eight and then a sixteenth to illustrate his point. In his description of Gow's up-driven bow style the first note is taken with a down bow and the next three played staccato with one up bow. Both Henderson and Hunter state that to achieve this "the bow must be lifted smartly of the strings with a peculiar jerk of the wrist". In the music with which I am familiar, Cape Breton fiddle, this type of bowing was quite common in reels. In fact it was frequently used where the written music had notes of equal value. In that style the first note was played with a down bow, the bow then lifted of the string and the next three notes played with an up bow bounced for all three notes to achieve the "staccato" effect. The result, I believe, if used sparingly, is more rhythmic drive to the music. I have used the word "was" deliberately. This style is now almost extinct in Cape Breton. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: J. Scott Skinners new CD
Re Nigel Gatherer's comments on Skinner's new CD I share your opinions completely on Skinner as a composer, " a huge admirer" and on his playing, " not the biggest fan of his playing" and that it "seems exaggerated, showy". I have a copy of a Skinner [Topic] LP issued in 1975 called "Classics of Scottish Fiddling". I don't know if this is the one which has been redone as a CD or not. The jacket notes say the original recording was made in 1910 for Columbia. With regard to his playing, I get the feeling that he is more interested in demonstrating his virtuosity than in his musicality. The subject of tempo is always an interesting one. In "The Scottish Violinist" Skinner lists the tempo for at least three different reels as 136. Compared with every other reference I have found, that is break-neck speed. I have seen reference to 126 in some old book or books [ Lowe's or Glen's perhaps] but can't find the source now. K.N. Mac Donald in the preface to "The Skye Collection" [1887] writes ."the tendency that exists at the present day to play this class of music a great deal too fast". J. Murdoch Henderson in "Flowers of Scottish Melody" suggests 120 to 126. Alastair Hardie in "The Caledonia Companion" in referring to Skinner's 136 tempo and that of other contemporary players says; .. "Most reels, however, will benefit from the less breathless tempo of 108 to 116". That precisely defines reel tempo for the music with which I am familiar; Cape Breton Fiddling. Alexander Mac Donald. PS I am a hobbyist fiddler not a professional. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Gight Castle
Hector MacAndrew recorded "Gicht Castle" on Dominion LP 1333. Circa 1960's. I have the recording but my turn table unfortunately does'nt work anymore but if you [David] have one you can borrow it. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi and other not so dumb questions
Re Stuart Eydmann's recent e-mail on the subject: I am very interested in the work you refer to which was done by Dr. Peter Cooke..." to explain the internal rhythmic variation in traditional players which gives the music its particular lift, lit and drive." Is it available? Re the issue of "traditional characteristics" or "the Scottish Idiom" as Hunter describes it ; the following may be of interest to you and others. The quote from Hunter in your e-mail "Snap bowing is one of the most fundamental strokes in strathspey playing", continues "and mastery of it is essential if the player is to capture the rhythmic drive inherent in the music". In my experience not a single Cape Breton fiddler plays or ever did play strathspeys this way. In fact I believe that it is virtually impossible to play strathspeys this way at "step dance" tempo, [176 to 184] but you'd be in for a royal fight if you concluded that CB fiddlers don't play them with rhythmic drive. It is also interesting to note that Hunter's description of "the Scots snap" on the same page and the "up-driven bow" on the following page describe precisely how CB fiddlers execute this bowing. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Tempi
Several people have commented on the subject of tempi so I thought I'd also get my two cents worth in. I have been "metronoming" Cape Breton fiddlers periodically for more that 40 years. My interest was initially in attempting to learn why it was that among the best fiddlers, there were some who had reputations as great "dance" players, [for both "step" and community "square" dances] and others considered equally skilled did not. The difference between them was truly remarkable; at the former's dances there was a rush to get on the dance floor to the extent that space was sometimes not available. I thought it must be tempi, but while tempi is very important, it did not explain the differences as in at least some cases, the tempi was the same. Some have what I call "rhythmic drive" and some don't. I'm still searching for the answer. Here are the results of my metronome work in Cape Breton: Jigs: 120 to126 Reels [in 2/4] see below 108 to116, interestingly, identical to tempi recommended by Alastair Hardy in "The Caledonian Companion" HornpipesSame tempi as reels when played as part of a square dance medley, otherwise a little slower. Strathspeys176 to 184 for step dance strathspeys, and many different tempi for the many different other types. There is a tendency among this generation of CB players to play at a faster tempi. There is a related subject which interests me and which was discussed by someone, Nigel Gatherer, I believe and that is time signature. Some reels are written 2/4 and others 4/4. To my ear the difference between strathspeys and reels is not just tempi but also "pulse". J. Murdock Henderson in "Flowers of Scottish Melody" says "Strathspeys are written in common time, designated by C or 4/4 while reels are in 2/4 time. Writing reels, contra dances and hornpipes in common time gives a wrong idea of pulse,..." I'm told that this is done in other music including American pop and resulted from the fact that in older times when music had to be written by hand, it was less expensive in terms of hours of work and quantities of ink to write 2/4 music in 4/4; for example reels written in 2/4 required two beams for the four note [1/16th] note clusters versus one if written in 4/4. At any rate it has confused the issue of designating tempi as has already been discussed and does as Henderson says "give a wrong idea of pulse" Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] PM William Ross
Kate Dunley wrote: Hi Kate: The following is copied from notes in the 1885 collection [William] "Ross's Collection of Pipe Music"; " Ross was born in 1823 and joined the Black Watch at the age of sixteen, eventually reaching the rank of Pipe Major. He entered the service of Queen Victoria in 1884..." A further note states " Although Angus MacKay had developed an acceeptable system of staff notation for pipe music, there had been no comprensive collection of tunes for the pipes published until Ross brought out his collection in 1869". The 1885 edition expanded the 1869 edition from 243 to 478 tunes. In a foreword in the 1976 reprint of the 1885 collection Seamus MacNeill says Ross died in 1891. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Johnny Cope
Fran Strong requested the music for "Johnnie Cope'' I inadvertently erased the e-mail address so am replying this way. The Margaree fiddler Angus Allan Gillis version of this tune [and presumably Natalie's] is identical to the version in "O'Neill's Irish Music" page 63. A footnote in the collection states " A footnote in Wood's songs of Scotland states that this old air originally consisted of one strain. The chorus or burden of a silly song, adapted to it was the first strain repeated an octave higher. The simple air although claimed as Scotch is in the Irish style and is known all over Ireland. The above setting without the harmonization was copied from ' The Repository of Scots and Irish Airs' printed in 1799". I f memory serves there is another tune called "Johnnie Cope" played in Cape Breton which is usually referred as the "Mary Mac Donald" [another CB fiddler] version. Pianist Doug Mac Phee would know. Are you there Doug? Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Session Tunes
In an earlier e-mail today re Nigel Gatherer's "Slow Session Tunes" I neglected to include tunes by another favourite "composer"; >From Tradition; "The Sow's Tail", strathspey, 'Welcome Charlie Stewart ', Cape Breton versions, both in the Dungreen Collection. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Session Tunes
Thanks to Nigel Gatherer for his definition of "Slow Session Tunes" What a great idea. Were you near by I would request an invitation to join in. I must admit though that I would be unfamiliar with mnay of the tunes you listed. I have not spent much time on lists which is a fault I should correct. Here are a few favourites which come to mind: >From Marshall; "The Farewell", "Huntley's Lodge", [not to be confused with a different tune with the same name by Nathaniel Gow], both slow airs, "Miss Gordon's Strathspey", " Miss Susan Gordon's Reel" >From Skinner: "The Music of Spey", "The Rosebud of Allenvale" , Airs, "Bonnie Annie Anderson", strathspey, Carnie's Canter [Sp?], "The Spey in Spate", Reels >From Peter Milne; "The Countess of Crawford" Air. I hope one or more of these tunes will be of interest to you and your "Session" people. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Session Tunes
What is the definition of "Slow Session Tunes" referred to in Nigel Gatherer's e-mail? Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Tuning and Electronic Tuners
In an e-mail whose subject was "What makes a style Scottish?" Nigel Gatherer wrote: I was also fascinated by Alexander's statement: "The ear's perception of a note can vary so greatly that the literature uses two terms; "frequency"...and "pitch"...and the two can vary by as much as a whole tone..." I often disagree with what an electric tuner says is in tune and make minor adjustments to suit my ear. I wonder if this is an illustration of that difference? My comment: I have no doubt whatsoever that that is what is happening. I don't claim to be an expert in the workings of electronic tuners but I think they are such a menace that they should be barred from use. This is what I think is happening. An electronic tuner is measuring the fundamental but what your ear is "measuring", hearing, on a "note" on an acoustic instrument is much more. What your ear "hears" is a composite of the fundamental and as many as twenty harmonics which the ear perceives as a single "tone". The number of, and the relative intensity [loudness] of the harmonics influences the ear's perception of the fundamental, and in making music perception is reality. There is another factor at work here if the electronic tuner is used to "tune" all the strings on your instrument. For reasons quite apart from the electronic tuner itself, it is more difficult to tune a unison than it is to tune concords, 5th's 4th's,etc. Under certain circumstances, when two notes sounded simultaneously are only a few cycles apart, the ear finds the result pleasing, giving a vibrato effect [sort of]. However when this occurs, the ear's perception of the note is the average of the two notes which of course means that you're not yet "tuned". This cannot happen if you tune by ear using the concord intervals; Pythagorean or "perfect fifth's" on the fiddle; fourth's and a single third on "conventional" guitar if memory serves. I hope this is helpful. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
Jack Campin Wrote: >> There are pipe tunes in G. >Like what? My comment: See Nigel Gatherer's list. This was a side issue. The main one was your statement that a fiddler would naturally play flat thirds in A major and normal thirds in G because of the pipes. Nonsense. She's playing a fiddle. Jack: Objective measurements in recent decades (using equipment your pal Helmholtz couldn't buy, like the Stroboconn) show that the intonation string players (e.g. in string quartets) tend to use instinctively is mostly Pythagorean. My comment: "My pal" Helmholtz? Would that he were. Imagine being able to call one of the greatest minds of the last two centuries your pal. But we shouldn't get personal should we? We need to be very cautious about scientific instruments measuring sound. The ear's perception of a note can vary so greatly that the literature uses two terms; "frequency", the actual vibrations in the air and "pitch" the ear's perception of frequency and the two can vary by as much as a whole tone. The musician must satisfy the human ear not a machine and the ear's capacity and sophistication far exceed any man-made device in this regard. One example will suffice. The ratio of the energy in a sound which is so loud that it hurts, called "the threshold of pain", to the energy in a just audible sound, called the "threshold of hearing", is 10,000,000,000 to 1. An attempt to replicate this in a sound system would fry your amp and blow your speakers. String quartets instinctively playing Pythagorean, for the most part, is what I would expect, but the suggestion that Lionel Turtis would be playing Pythagorean thirds and sixths in a quartet with Fitz Kreisler would provide comic relief were it not so absurd. They are not playing "scales" they are playing intervals, Pythagorean mostly, mean-tone where necessary, mutable notes where necessary etc. so as to play in tune. After all the Pythagorean and mean-tone scales were a compromise created to deal with a problem which doesn't exist in the violin family instruments. Ironically the "problem", which these scales only placated not solved, is our subject , playing in tune. Re your comment on other cultures, earlier musicians playing Pythagorean or mean-tone scales in singing or on the violin family instruments, which Lloyd says is superhuman [read impossible]; why would anyone attempt to play/sing in a compromised scale which another instrument [piano and its predecessor instruments] forced on us because the human hand's ten digits couldn't physically accommodate on a keyboard the much greater demands of the human ear? Re barbershop singing. I was a barbershopper for 15 years. Loved it. Biggest reason, we sang "in good close harmony" i.e. in tune. Re Your comment; "If you tune [your fiddle] in pure fifths you do *not* get just intonation pitches for the open strings, but Pythagorean ones;" You certainly *do* get just intonation pitches.. The dominant interval in the just intonation scale is the Pythagorian fifth.. Are you confusing just "temperment" with just "intonation"? See P.P.S. The remainder of your e-mail refers to instruments/cultures having 24 or another number of note intervals, as compared with our 12 note [piano] scale. Sure, why not? In fact a fiddler has an infinite number of "pitches" to choose from and one who plays in tune utilizes at least 24 in the compass of an octave. But it seems to me we have gotten way off topic so lets return to the primary discussion; fiddling and playing in tune. Previous reference was made to Perlman's "The Fiddle Music of Prince Edward Island" specifically page 28 where the subject is pitch and where he lists notes which PEI fiddlers play off standard pitch. To my ear what Perlman says here is replicated, with one exception, in the playing of many Cape Breton fiddlers. [The exception; I have not heard Cape Breton fiddlers play the note D sharp in the key of A]. But the major players don't do this. So you have two groups playing the same tunes in the same style playing notes with different pitches. They both can't be playing "in tune". At this point in the discussion many people have asked me, "How come the fiddler doesn't know he's playing out of tune". For an answer I turn again to Turtis who said, "Inattention to one's faculty of hearing is a vice of such rapid growth that in a very short time the player accepts faulty intonation with equanimity, eventually becoming quite unconscious that he is playing out of tune". He also says in speaking about violinists and true intonation, "Most of us are capable of discerning this [true intonation]. But how many do not". So the same problem exists in the classical music world also. Kate Dunley Wrote: Some fiddlers are nearly perfect, aren't they! All I can say is that some people prefer perfect music and others prefer something wilder. Here's an example of a different hierarchy of values from what you expect in the art-music world: Have you heard Anner Bylsm
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
Jack Campin Wrote: Tunes in A are often pipe tunes and hence might be expected to be given piping intonation. Tunes in G are never pipe tunes. So this is exactly what you *would* expect if the choice were a musical one. My comment: There are pipe tunes in G. More importantly it is impossible for a fiddler to play in the "piping intonation" or any intonation either than the "just" one. More on this in my reply to John Chambers. John Chambers wrote: So you'd think that fiddlers with a classical background would know and understand that different musical groups use different intonation rules. Traditional Scottish music shouldn't be anything other than yet another sort of intonation, to be mastered if you want to pass as a Scottish fiddler. My comment: It is impossible for a fiddler/violinist [or a trombonist or a singer] to play/sing in "another sort of intonation". Quoting L. Lloyd , "It is easy to play out of tune, it is a superhuman feat to play 'off the note' with exactly the mistuning required for equal temperment, for we may be sure that the player has no physical means of reproducing equal tempertment with accuracy". As I said in an earlier e-mail the ear can measure the "just intonation" intervals but it can't measure deviations from them nor can it measure intervals which would produce other than just intonation ratios. The comment also applies to all temperments or to "another sort of intonation".Add to this another complication, the equal tempered scale isn't really equal, the fifth being infinitesimally "off" and the third being considerable so. The pipe scale is even more "unequal" and impossible for a fiddler to replicate. Consider also that when you've tuned your fiddle in fifths, you have preselected the pitch of four and sometimes five of the notes in the diatonic scale in the most-used fiddle keys and they are all in the "just intonation" scale. In other words in order to have another sort of intonation you would have to start by mistuning your instrument to some specific rule which for the above reasons is also impossible. . Kate Dunley wrote: However, I have heard Cape Breton fiddlers use pitches between B and B-flat (especially in the high octave) when playing tunes in G mixolydian/dorian (such as Paddy on the Turnpike, which uses both B and B-flat already). And I have to say that it sounds nice to me that way, with the pitch a bit ambiguous. You get that teasing, bluesy flavour. Anyway, I don't think fiddlers play a flat C# so much in A major. I think the "supernatural" C happens in those tunes like the King tunes, which are in A mixolydian/dorian, in which case the example is analogous to what I described above. Alexander, do you often observe a low C# in A major or were you just going by Perlman's description? My comment: I have noticed that different CB fiddlers use different "notes" in tunes like Paddy on the Turnpike, i.e. tunes called double tonic tunes by some . Some use Bb, some B, and some in between. I have also noticed that some players play an F# in both the first and second turns [strains] but others F in the first and F# in the second. Pity the poor piano player. What chord is he/she to use. Given that a good fiddler is constantly checking and "fine tuning" his intonation and that CB music sessions are frequently impromptu, image the interplay that is going on when the piano player anticipates an F natural and or a Bb, then gets one or none. It wouldn't surprise that on the second time through each goes in a different correcting direction, or that the fiddler plays an in-between note, or that the mismatch between the two instruments sounds that way. Re low C#'s in A major, I'm not familiar with the PEI fiddlers. I have observed the same thing in CB fiddling but not among the major players. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
To Kate Dunley; Hi. Kate, Glad to read your contribution. Re your comment: In Cape Breton fiddle music, playing with drive and good timing is more important than playing in tune. My comment: Agree. However you're implying that the choices are mutually exclusive. They need not be .In fact the very best CB fiddlers play with drive, good timing AND play in tune. Kate's comment: In conclusion, although Alexander would like to see the issue of tuning as a purely scientific one, I believe that much about it comes down to a matter of opinion My comment: With great emphasis I must say no. The great contribution made by Herman von Helmholtz was precisely that he rejected the purely scientific explanation in favour of one which combined the scientific with the art of music. All of Llewelyn Lloyd's essays repeatedly reject the purely scientific approach and it is the latter's material which I have been quoting. Anyone interested should read "Intervals, Scales, and Temperment" and "The Musical Ear" both by Llewelyn Lloyd. They are a very tough read but fascinating and well worth the effort. Alexander . Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
In response to my comment; If the interval between A and a flatted C# > were a deliberate musical choice in the key of A major then the interval > between G and B in the key of G major should also be a flatted B. It > never is. David Kilpatrick wrote: You've never tuned a guitar by ear then. My comment: David you've missed the point completely. The reference was to fiddlers known tendency to play middle finger notes approximately mid way between the index and ring fingers as was described in Perlman's book on PEI fiddlers giving a flat C# in the key of A major; and that if this were a deliberate choice of interval then when playing the same or a similar tune in G major they should play a flatted B so as to get the same interval but they don't. Therefore the former interval choice wasn't a musical one but rather what Honeyman calls slovenly fingering. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
In response to my Tues 19:00 e-mail Anselm Lingnau wrote: Quoting me: > Altering the intervals of "the most perfect instrument" to those of the "primitive and very imperfect" one makes no musical sense nor any other sense. Anselm's comment: Well, both these comments come from fiddlers so what do you expect? My comment: I would expect them to give an honest response. In addition their response is consistent with other important sources. Anselm: However a fiddle isn't any good in, e.g., battlefield-scale psychological warfare, and any piper would be forgiven if they considered a fiddle `primitive and very imperfect' on that account. My comment: Agreed. But should I ask, What would you expect from a piper? No I won't. A grand piano, a cello, etc "isn't any good in battlefield-scale psychological warfare" either but utility on the battlefield isn't the criteria I would use to rate the relative merits of musical instruments. My Tues e-mail comment: > In summary a note whose pitch lies about half way between G and G# is not in the equal tempered scale, is not in the just intonation scale, and does not designate a tune as Scottish. It is simply out of tune. Alselm's comment: It may be `out of tune' by your scientific definition but it may still sound right to the musicians (and audience). I have Ken Perlman's book on the fiddle music of Prince Edward Island, and his transcriptions show many instances where particular players play their notes `too sharp' or `too flat'. It's their style, and they've been doing it for ages in blissful ignorance of Messrs. Lloyd, Honeyman or Gill. I suppose you could walk up to a PEI fiddler and tell them that they're playing out of tune but chances are you would just be laughed out of the kitchen to the strains of vigorous out-of-tune fiddle music. And the same thing probably applies to Scottish fiddlers. Flattening the G# may not be a sure-fire indicator of `Scottish' styling but it is something that, for various reasons, one shouldn't be surprised to encounter in the playing of many Scottish instrumentalists, and if it does occur that usually happens on purpose rather than through sloppiness. My comments: It isn't my scientific definition and what sounds right to musicians and audiences everywhere is playing in tune. The characteristics of the human ear, which is what determines this, are all the same no matter where you live. The "in tune" definition is that of the greatest minds in the subject in the last century. A quote from Lloyd's "The Musical Ear" is relevant here: "It was Herman von Helmholtz who showed what was missing in the conjectures of his predecessors about the relations between the science of acoustics and the art of music". I also have Ken Pearlman's book and note the paragraph relating to the pitch of C# in the key of A major as being half way between C and C#. If the interval between A and a flatted C# were a deliberate musical choice in the key of A major then the interval between G and B in the key of G major should also be a flatted B. It never is. Also other fiddlers also play some of the tunes listed and don't play their C#'s flat. For example if you listed the best known Cape Breton fiddlers and then listed the CB fiddlers who play the least number of notes out of tune [as I have described out of tune] guess what! you'd have the same list. I should point out that every fiddler/violinist plays some notes out of tune sometimes. I don't think ignorance is ever blissful. Your responses dealt with the general comments/conclusions which I had made but you didn't respond on the details. That is unfortunate as that is where the discussion should center. My Tues e-mail comment: > P.S. I, Alexander, am the writer of these e-mails, not Suzanne Mac Donald. Anselm's comment: Well, if that is the case then maybe you should get your `From:' header fixed. My response: My apologies. I am very new to computers and am very low down on the learning curve. This discussion appears to me to be getting personal. I'm only interested in the subject itself. Accordingly, for now at least, this will be my last e-mail on list. I will respond off list to anyone as best I can. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
David Kilpatrick wrote: The sharpened note is not out of tune. It is imitative of the *correct* sharp pitch of the appropriate note on (in this case) Border pipes. Each type of bagpipe - great Highland, Scottish smallpipe, Border, Northumbrian and to a lesser extent the more elaborate and almost microtonal Irish inventions which look crossed with a clarinet - not only has a traditional overall pitch which often isn't A=440, but also a traditional relative pitch for each tone. To my ear the modern highland bagpipe usually sounds most 'normal' and the conical bore Border pipe the most extreme, but I've heard Northumbrian ones which are similar - one local player has a vintage set which gives him space at sessions, since no-one can join in with anything he does without retuning. Many fiddle tunes are also pipe tunes, and fiddlers take great pride in playing them in a manner which makes this ancestry audible. Part of the skill in doing that lies in imitating the tones (sorry, I don't like using the word 'note' instead of 'tone' in the context of a pitch) of the pipes. And that is one thing which can make a style sound 'Scottish' . My comment: We need to define what is "in tune" . It is the absence of "beats" or " roughness" or "dissonance", which is caused by a lack of unisons in the low harmonics. Playing a note on the fiddle imitative of a pipe note does not mean it is in tune. Further the human ear cannot measure deviations from a "tuned" note, a tuned note as I have defined it. Further still, as you and others have pointed out, the flatted seventh note is a different pitch in different pipes and further still again the intervals in the highland pipes have and are undergoing changes for years. Even, then, were a fiddler able to accurately play the flatted note, which one would be considered "authentic or "traditional" , the modern one or the ancient one or the multiplicity that have existed between the two, or even the multiplicity that now exist in the modern pipes. [For more on this see Llewelyn Lloyd's quotes below] Here are some quotes from others relevant to this discussion. 1. "The Bagpipe Scale", an essay by Llewelyn Lloyd published in the "The Monthly Musical Record". A. Quoting another source he says "there was no scientific principle adopted in boring the holes of chanters, and that only about one in every six made turns out useful". B. He reports that on tests conducted on eight chanters all eight had significantly different pitch differences in at least one interval. 2 ."The Strathspey, Reel, and Hornpipe Tutor" by William C Honeyman. A." No one can be a good strathspey player who does not play strictly in tune. There is even a scientific reason why a strathspey player should in some cases be more strictly correct in his intonation than any other violin playerSlovenly fingering of semitones is at all times irritating to any one with a sensitive ear." . B. "The Scottish bagpipes [are a] primitive and very imperfect instrument." However he says its "eccentricities" and "peculiar school of composition even when that music was intended for the violin.. will haunt purely Scottish and Irish music through all time". 3. From "The Book of the Violin" edited by Dominic Gill "The violin is one of the most perfect, as well as the most acoustically complex, of all musical instruments". Altering the intervals of "the most perfect instrument" to those of the "primitive and very imperfect" one makes no musical sense nor any other sense and so I conclude as I did in my last e-mail: In summary a note whose pitch lies about half way between G and G# is not in the equal tempered scale, is not in the just intonation scale, and does not designate a tune as Scottish. It is simply out of tune. Alexander P.S. I, Alexander, am the writer of these e-mails, not Suzanne Mac Donald. Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
On Wednesday July 12,10:27, Wendy Galovich: > Please don't be offended but I have concluded that you haven't read or > do not understand the two quotes which I included in my last e-mail. Um.. Actually I did read and understand them, and my own conclusion is that the main problem here is one of semantics and context.. more on that below. > The last line in the Turtis quote bears repeating here, " > I am concerned that we may be boring others on the list with this > discussion. If you wish to communicate further perhaps we should do it > off list. Not yet. I have a question for you that I would like to ask in the forum of the list, because I think it would benefit many of us, if you would be so kind as to answer it; it has to do with the semantics issue, and revolves around the definitions of the following terms: - tempered scale - alternate scale I am not disputing exact scientific/musical definition of the tempered scale (which is not new information to me or to most of the rest of the list), nor am I challenging your comments about "alternate scales" per se. But the practical reality here is that English language is such that we often we find ourselves having to use it in an imprecise way, not out of ignorance but simply because the language lacks a specific word or short phrase to precisely describe the particular concept we're trying to express. We're in the midst of just such a situation, where the above terms end up getting used, with the intent of a slightly different definition, as follows: 1) tempered scale: a scale structure in which the individual pitch intervals are *approximately* 1.059, but with fine adjustments to correct each note so that it is in tune, in relation to its neighboring notes. (This is the concept I had in mind when I said that the CT and MA fiddlers tend to stick to the "tempered scale". 2) alternate scale: a scale in which the pitch of one or more of its notes deviates from the tempered scale as described in 1). My comment: The Llewelyn Lloyd quote which I referred to says in effect that equal temperment should not dictate to our ears where it has no right [e.g.in string playing and singing]. Why then would you begin the scale discussion with 1, the tempered scale, which doesn't apply and then modify it in some way to produce 2. the alternate scale. When you alter the tempered scale "with fine adjustments to correct each note so that it is in tune, in relation to its neighboring notes", by definition you don't have a tempered scale, you have the scale which is used in unaccompanied singing and in string playing. Naming this scale presents the difficulties you referred to re of the vagaries of the English language and also because the literature on the subject has not standardized its definitions. I have seen it called the "pure" scale, the "just" scale and the "just intonation" scale. Llewelyn Lloyd prefers the latter. Its requirement is that the interval between pairs of notes be a specific arithmetic ratio, a ratio that is not possible on a fixed pitch instrument such as the piano. For example when tuning your fiddle, D to A for example, [which gives you two note in the just intonation scale] the ratio is 3/2. Your ear isn't interested in arithmetic, but it recognizes the unison notes produced by the second harmonic A, an octave above the open A on the A string and the third harmonic on the D string which is the same A. This will only occur when the ratio of the open A to the open D is exactly 3/2. When Lionel Turtis says " A note infinitesimally flat or sharp lacks the rich, round, penetrative, luscious sound that only a note perfectly in tune will give you", he is referring to flat or sharp as measured against the just intonation scale. All of this brings us back to the beginning of this discussion, the pitch of the seventh note in a Scottish fiddle tune, specifically G# in the key of A major. The pitch of the seventh note is dictated by the ratios of the just intonation scale. Playing this note somewhere between G and G# is something which violin instruction books warn teachers is a natural tendency, is something which many fiddlers do and is an example of what Lionel Turtis refers to when he says "but how many do not" [play in tune]. In summary a note whose pitch lies about half way between G and G# is not in the equal tempered scale, is not in the just intonation scale, and does not designate a tune as Scottish. It is simply out of tune. Alexander P.S. Toby Rider wrote: Sigh.. This whole "what makes a style 'Scottish'?" question has come up so many times on this list in the past, that it makes me sad and tired just to think about it :-) To put it bluntly, you have to be either not be listening, or totally unfamiliar with the style to not hear it. I don't know of anyone who can listen to a set by Tommy Peoples and get him confused with Alasdair Fraser. My comment: While I can understand that "What makes a style Scottish" may hav
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
I'm correcting errors in my just sent e-mail "unusuin" should read unison and condtitute constitute. I also left out the Tertis last line quote.It is ".A note infinitesimally flat or sharp lacks the rich, round, penetrative, lucious sound that only a note perfectly in tune will give you". Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
Wendy Galovich wrote: Comment: Actualy that is not what I was saying. We are able to detect differences in pitch but can't measure them. The human ear measures musical intervals by tuning in the unison harmonics produced by the two notes. Some are easy to do, such as the fifth, the third is more difficult, the tempered semitone is impossible, either "exactly" as you say or inexactly. The reason for this is that there is no unusuin harmonic in two notes separated by the ratio 1.059 or any of its aritmetic multiples. That is why the piano tuner tunes the instrument in the manner I described in a previous e-mail. Comment: I had not intended to misquote you. My appoligies if that was what was conveyed. Tempered scales and alternate scales must be dealt with sepapately. The equal tempered 12-note chromatic scale with which we are familiar is the one defined by the ratio of a semitone being 1.095. Deviations from this, although discernable as being a different pitch ,do not constitute a different scale. Also "common sense" is based on a person's education, knowledge, life expereiences, etc. In other words it is frequently not "common" at all Comment: There are two separate issues here. Firstly you are saying that playing the notes which conforms to the ratio which defines the equal tempered scale is "overkill". It fundamently is not. Secondly, referring back to the type of tune which began this discussion, a tune in A, altering the pitch of the seventh note so that it is somewhere between G and G# does not condtitute a different scale. Similiarly playing a tune which conforms only approximately to the tempered scale is not playing in another scale. Please don't be offended but I have concluded that you haven't read or do not understand the two quotes which I included in my last e-mail. They are based on the work of Herman von Helmholtz, who is considered the father of the science of accoustics, who Encyclopedia Britanica describes as "one of the greatest scientists of the 19th century" and on subsequent work by Alexander J. Ellis and Llewelyn S. Lloyd, the latter of whom was a Grove's consultant, writer of a text book on the subject, and the author of approx 50 essays on the subject in learned journals.The last line in the Turtis quote bears repeating here, " I am concerned that we may be boring others on the list with this discussion. If you wish to communicat further perhaps we snould do it off list. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
Wendy Galovich wrote: This is obvious if you're going to break the tempered scale down to that degree. Comment: 1. What is obvious? 2. I didn't break anything down. The ratio 1.059 is by definition the interval of a semitone in the equal tempered scale. More about this later. Anselm Lingnau wrote: This is also to do with the fact that the twelfth-root-of-two (or 1.059) ratio applies to' physically ideal' strings that have no diameter. If you look at a piano with the various lids and covers off you will find that this is obviously not true, especially for the bass notes. It turns out that a piano tuning must be `stretched' somewhat for the piano to sound in tune with itself on account of these deviations, and good piano tuners are supposed to cater for this. Comment: 'Physically ideal' strings requires definition and all strings have a diameter. See below also. The following are two quotes taken from firstly "Intervals, Scales and Temperment by Lewelyn Lloyd. Lloyd was an advisor to "Groves Dictionary of Music", a twenty volume publication considered by many the "bible" of music. In a foreword to the book a Mr. Kenneth Van Barthold, who was a professional pianist, a teacher of the pianoforte at Trinity College of Music and head of the music department at the City Literary Institute. On the subject of 'pitch' or intonation he writes: "What has happened is that the keyboard has come to be the arbiter of intonation. Many a singer is brought up suddenly by a bang on the piano. But piano intonation equivocates; the sounds are impure, many of the overtones lost or damped on purpose, and every interval except the octave out of tune [and many octaves are 'stretched' for added brilliance]. This then is the arbiter we use; more, it is for many students their first contact with the quality and classification of tonal intervals and harmonics. The dangers to the sensitivity of the ear are obvious. " We cannot put the clock back. Equal temperment provides the most effective compromise so far discovered. It is ignorance of the nature of this compromise which is inexcusable, as is the assumption that it should dictate to our ears where it has no right [e.g.in string playing and singing].This means, Wendy, that if the Connecticut and Massachusetts fiddlers were doing what you have said they are doing, i.e., playing in the tempered scale, they would be playing every note except the octave out of tune. My second quote is on the same subject and is taken from the book "My Viola and I" written by Liomel Turtis. Turtis was one of the greatest violists of this century and a noted string teacher. He writes: "Perfect intonation is the rock-foundation of the string player's equipmentFaulty intonation in most cases is the result of utter carelessness,.Most of us who profess to play a string instrument have 'good ears', that is sensitive to true intonation, and what is more, most of us are capable of discerning and attaining this. But how many do not.. A 'good ear' can become permanently perverted by negligent, superficial, non-penetrative listening on the part of the performer. This inattention to one's faculty of hearing is a vice of such rapid growth that in a very short time the player accepts faulty intonation with equanimity, eventually becoming quite unconscious that he is playing out of tune"...A note infinitesimally flat or sharp lacks the rich, round, penetrative, lucious sound that only a note perfectly in tune will give you". Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
Wendy Galovich wrote: I dunno.. in all honesty I find this assertion baffling. It goes without | saying, that beginner fiddlers often miss the pitch they're aiming for. But I | didn't think this thread was about beginners. And it seems to me that if | playing "out of tune" as you describe it (and I'm putting it in quotes | because I don't agree that the altered pitches in question are out of tune), | was a universal *fiddler* problem, it would turn up with *all* fiddlers, | regardless of the style being played. In other words it would be just as | prevalent among mature fiddlers specializing in bluegrass, contra etc. etc. | etc. (insert whatever fiddle tradition you like here), but it isn't. The | bluegrass and contra fiddlers around here in Connecticut and Massachusetts | stick to the tempered scale. So I can't concur that it's sloppy fiddling, at | least not among seasoned players. ... My comment: It does turn up in other fiddle traditions. The Connecticut and Massachusetts fiddlers cannot be playing,as you say, in the tempered scale because that is impossible on the fiddle. That would require each ascending note in the chromatic scale to be be exactly higher in pitch over the preceeding note by the ratio 1.059 and larger intervals to be exact arithmetic multiplies of this ratio. The human ear cannot do this. That is why a piano tuner has to achieve this objective by listening to the interplay between repeated fifths and fourths. Even employing this method and with infinitely more time than a fiddler has to play a single note, it has been demonstrated that the best piano tuners deviate somewhat from the ratio. John Chambers wrote responding to Wendy's note: This isn't just a Scottish observation. A funny thing happened this afternoon. The wife and I were wandering around in a local clothing store, and she pointed out that the background music was an Abba song. Which one isn't important; what I noticed was that the singers were consistently singing the 7ths in a particular repeated phrase as a "half-flat" 7th, in between the two tempered 7ths. My comment: The seventh note when played [or sang] in tune lies between the two tempered sevenths. As with the fiddlle it is impossible to sing in the tempered scale for the same reason. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] What makes a style "Scottish?"
David Kilpatrick in response to Janice Hopper wrote: Another point is the use of slightly microtonal sharps/flats and instruments which are not in modern equal temperament. This is why most Scottish music sounds utterly, totally wrong on electronic keyboards; even the accordion, which is well loved for dance music, has a temperament which is not compatible with correctly played Scottish fiddle, or with traditional pipes (some modern pipes are set up to play more compatibly with other instruments). A good reason for NOT accompanying a solo singer is that left unaccompanied, the singer will use the natural vocal temperament and intervals, and when this happens some of the classic Scots tunes take on a special quality and beauty which they don't have if forced to a piano scale.. When learning a reel in A major with a fiddler, I had to question a 7th frequently used: was it a minor of major, G or G sharp? Neither - it was a note similar to the G on smallpipes and distinctly sharper than a standard minor 7th. So on the guitar this needed a sort of 'bluesy' bend upwards. It is written as a minor 7th in the music. I believe that these are separate and unrelated problems. The first relates to centuries of musicians' struggle with "scales" with which to play music; i.e. the Pythagorean scale; the mean-tone scale; the tempered scale, etc. They are not related to Scottish music exclusively but to all western civilization music and to at least some extent to music throughout the world. The problem results from the fact that when our scale is constructed from the two intervals, octaves and fifths, which are most pleasing to the human ear, a discrepancy occurs. When moving in 12 fifths and 7 octaves from a common note, say C, the final notes are both C but differ in pitch by a small amount called the Pythagorean comma. In the equal tempered scale this discrepancy is distributed equally among the twelve notes of the chromatic scale. The result is that every note in the scale is slightly our of tune; with, for example, the interval of a fifth being very close to correct and the third considerably off. A second problem occurs because even in a scale constructed using "pure" intervals the notes must be mutable so as to make the concords exact [For example in the interval of a fifth the ratio of the fifth note to the first must be exactly 3\2.] The compromise reached to deal with the problem[s] is the tempered scale. However the "problem" only occurs in fixed pitch instruments such as the piano. It does not exist in the fiddle or violin if you prefer that name because the player can adjust the pitch of the note to suit The piano [and its predecessors] has so dominated western civilization music that we tend to use it as a basis from which to compare, etc. We should not. Re "When learning a reel in A major with a fiddler" Many violinists/fiddlers have a common problem. There is a tendency to play certain notes out of tune, for example C#'s on the A and G strings; G#'s on the E and D strings are frequently played flat to correct pitch, C and G [naturals] on the A and E strings are played sharp,etc. This is due to the combination of those notes being physically difficult to execute in the early stages of learning to play the instrument and subsequent inattention to the need to listen with the consummate attention required to play precisely in tune. The fiddler to which you refer playing the 7th note [G] in the key of A neither sharp nor flat is typical. There is an added complication in Scottish music because many of the tunes are in A mixolydian requiring a G natural and are often played in sequence with A Major tunes requiring a G sharp This, I think, further confuses the issue. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[scots-l] Tune "Primrose Lass"
To Nigel Gatherer: I sent some info on the subject tune to you but messed up your e-mail address. Did you receive? Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Whistles, learning by ear and more....!
Philip Whitaker wrote: Agree wholeheartedly. I'm a hobbyist fiddler and do and see other fiddlers looking at fingers as a aid to the ear in learning a new tune. Precisely. This belief has always baffled me for the reasons you state. You'd be interested in David Johnon's comments contained in "Scottish Fiddle Music in the 18th Century". In a chapter entitled "Reels, Hornpipes, Strathspeys and Jigs" he writes: " Some aspects of this chapter may seem controversial to some readers;...the ideas which today's fiddlers have about it are by no means entirely in accord with the historical facts..It seems to have been the top of society, rather than the bottom which regenerated Scottish dance music after the worst religious suppression was over..." He further explains that in the 1750's French writer Jean Jacques Rouseau's ideas extolling the virtues of peasant culture spread throughout Europe including Scotland and manifested itself in words and music. "All of a sudden cultured men grew weary of mannered elegance and began looking for deeper truths in more primitive art. It was inevitable that moves would be made to identify Scot's fiddling also as a primitive peasant culture. This was somewhat awkward at first since everyone in Scotland knew that music was a highly technical business, and that learning the fiddle took years of practice and often involved formal lessons.The Gow collections helped, but by blurring the distinction between old and new tunes, they encouraged the ides that most fiddle music had been written in the distant past.when composers were simple peasants and the instrument was played more spontaneously than at present. THE IDEA WAS NONSENSE BUT PERSUASIVE. [emphasis mine] The peasant myth of Scot's fiddling was held in check to some extent by the existence of two virtuoso players, Nathaniel Gow and William Marshall, both were educated, articulate men". Music, it seems to me is full of myths. In Cape Breton where I grew up the above myths still prevail and there are additional ones, i.e. proficiency on a musical instrument is in the DNA, specifically if an ancestor has demonstrated an ability, then you've got it, practice is not a great necessity. On the other hand if an ancestor has not demonstrated this ability then you are wasting your time practicing. There are other myths but rather start a raging fire I'll stop here. Re your comments on work shops: <."Now let's break it up into phrases.> Little wonder. Yet that method is so prevalent. Consider the added difficulty when the tune is a different genre. It's impossible. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Decorative Techniques and their names
Stuart Eydman wrote: Many people confuse the "doodle" with the " birl". Little wonder, the musical representation of the doodle is a birl plus a fourth identical note. Skinner in "A Guide to Bowing" defines the doodle as "four successive identical notes" and describes it as a "quaint but senseless feature of the past" . He then goes on to illustrate his point with three tunes " Carrick's Rant", The Smith's a Gallant Fireman" and "The Marquis of Huntly's Farewell" stating that the "modern" way of playing these tunes is superior. [ In my books these tunes are written the modern way]. He convinces me on these tunes. Yet four successive identical notes appear in lots of tunes,[and are written that way] for example in Skinner's own "Scottish Violinist" collection, the reel "Nine Pint Coggie", and Marshall's " Mrs. Hamilton of Wishaw" in the Skye collection; strathspey examples include "Athole Cummers" in Kerr's 3rd. and Bog an Lochan in Skye. Converting these tunes to Skinner's modern way just wouldn't work for me. I have heard some fiddlers play four successive identical notes of the same value in strathspeys, usually playing four sixteenth notes where the music is written as a dotted eighth and a sixteenth. This certainly detracts from the tune and I would agree with Skinner that this "is lacking in dignity, and shows poverty of invention" Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin' once more
In my e-mail just sent [8:30 pm AST] the following sentence: In musical notation this would be two sixteenth notes, one eight note and a one sixteenth rest. should read two thirty-second notes, one eighth etc Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin' once more
Stuart Eydman wrote: Anyway, I've measured a few birls selected at random from a number of Cape Breton fiddlers (using the 1970s Topic album of tapes by John Shaw) and I conclude that, if anything, the birls are in fact longer than the Skinner ones I looked at previously My comment: The length of the birl cannot be longer than the time required to play the equivalent of a 1/4 note. To retain the rhythm of the tune it must occupy one beat in a 4/4 time signature or 1/2 beat in a 2/4 time signature tune. Stuart: I note that the birl often precedes a long note - am I correct? If so then it might be possible that the ear links the third note with that which follows - if it does this could result in the ratio 1:1:6 or so. Hardly a scientific sample but what do you think Comment: A long note following a birl in my experience is not common. A very quick check through Skye, Athole, Kerrs, Skinner's Scottish Violinist turned up only two, "Nine Pint Coggie" and "Mrs Hamilton of Wishaw." "Nine Pint Coggie" in the Athole is a different tune but does have this characteristic. A long note after the birl in strathspeys does appear to be more common; "Athole Cummers" in Athole and "Bog an Lochan" in Skye for example. Re your comment that it is hard to be precise about the time ratios, i.e. 1:1:3 , 1:1:6 , You are absolutely correct. The 1:1:6 ratio appears to give too much time to the third note. There is another ratio which I discussed in a previous e-mail; 1:1:4 with a sixteenth rest. In musical notation this would be two sixteenth notes, one eight note and a one sixteenth rest. No scientific measurements in this either. One can say with certainty, though, that the length of the first two notes, as traditionally played, are much shorter than the 1:1:2 time ratio indicated by the written music. Stuart: The more of Skinner's playing I listen to the more of a fan I become. Comment I'm not familiar with his playing but his music is superb. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Wendy Galovich wrote: Okay, if you're speaking from a "Winston perspective" My comment: I'm speaking from a Cape Breton fiddle music perspective or perhaps more correctly from a Scottish music, Cape Breton style perspective, not a Winston perspective. Wendy: Also the sheer number of tunes by each composer doesn't really answer the question of how many of them actually get played, how often, and in what venues. Comment: The tunes in the "Winston" collection are the ones he played all over Cape Breton and elsewhere for about forth years. As I pointed out in my earlier e-mail the Skinner tunes in that collection exceed the combined total of his next four of five favorite composers. The venues were every conceivable one with the community dances being the greatest number. During summer months he played four/five nights a week for about 25 years, amazingly all the while holding down a 9 to 5 Monday to Friday day job. His dances were always sell-outs. Cape Bretoners from "away" scheduled summer vacations to maximize attendance at his dances. But that's not all. Until the modern era he recorded far more music that any other CB fiddler. He was a guest numerous times on National television in the 1950's, and at this time this music was pretty well confined to the western half of Cape Breton Island. One of his tune "McNabb's Hornpipe" otherwise known as "Crossing the Minch" [spelling?] made it all the way to the Canadian music "Hit Parade". He was and is an icon. Wendy: The other unanswered piece of the question, which I didn't spell out (my fault!), is where do Skinner's compositions fit into Cape Breton step dance tradition - specifically the strathspeys. The reason I'm still questioning this is that while I can think of quite a few "listening strathspeys" by Skinner, I can only come up with only one that is sometimes associated with him that is commonly played for step dancers - Devil in the Kitchen - but The Scottish Violinist credits a W.M. Ross for the composition, and Skinner for the fiddle arrangement. Comment: I did a very quick check through: Skinner's "Harp and Claymore", "Miller o' Hirn", "Logie" and "Scottish Violinist" collections. . Lots of strathspeys but as you say mostly "slow' or solo types. But many of these are beautiful music and they are his creations. The fact that they are not stepdance strathspeys does not detract from them. Also the reels are a bigger part of the stepdance music than are strathspeys and Cape Bretoners are stepdancing to plenty of his reels. Wendy: but the step dancing strathspey stands out in such sharp relief for me as an important, distinctive part of the Cape Breton musical tradition that I still don't see Skinner as a significant influence on *that* part of it. Fair enough? Comment: Agree. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Wendy Galovich wrote: However it seems to me that at the dances and concerts I've been to on the island, and on the recordings I have, there is a sampling of Skinner tunes, but the Gows', the Lowes', Marshall's and MacIntosh's to name a few of the older composers. Among the more recent composers whose tunes I've frequently heard played in those venues are Dan R., John Campbell, Donald Angus, Kinnon and Joey Beaton, Jerry Holland, Brenda Stubbert.. the list goes on. However if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you're saying that there are more Skinner tunes in the Cape Breton repertoire than of any of the composers I just named off. That puzzles because it doesn't seem to line up with what little experience I've had of the tradition. Could you please explain further? The Gows published about 300 tunes [infamous for plagiarizing some of them] , Marshall about 250, Skinner about 600, Lowes collection is mostly traditional compositions. Skinner was not only the most prolific composer but he and Marshall are in a class by themselves. Winston Fitzgerald was, in the view of many, Cape Breton's most influential fiddler. If you check "Winston Fitzgerald, A Collection of Fiddle Tunes", edited by Paul Cranford, you will find that Winston's most popular composers were; Skinner, Henderson [ J. Murdock] Dan R. Mac Donald and Marshall in that order with Skinner having more tunes than all the others combined. Many of the local composes you list have added significantly to the repertoire. As you point out most of these are of relatively recent vintage. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Toby Ryder wrote: Is that surprising? I find it to be not in the least bit surprising. Skinner did alot of things with his playing that were very "classical" in nature. For me it is surprising. Skinner was hardly unfamiliar with the tradition. I find that the "classical" label is placed on Skinner too frequently and without foundation and always with a negative connotation. I also fnd it odd that this view is held by many people in Cape Breton and yet they are playing more of his tunes than anybody else's. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
In an e-mail dated 14 Jan. I stated that the birl in Cape Breton was played [on the fiddle] not as written, i. e. two sixteenth notes followed by an eighth but two thirty-second notes followed by a dotted eighth. So far so good. But my arithmetic analysis following was in error. The time ratio of the three notes is not 1:1:3 but 1:1:6. As played in Cape Breton then the birl is much faster than that of Skinner which was 1:1:3 as reported in an earlier e-mail by Start Eydmann. Interestingly Skinner was playing them much closer to that of a classically trained fiddler unfamiliar with the tradition, time ratio 1:1:2, that is to say exactly as written. David Johnson says that the birl in Scotland is also played in the time ratio 1:1:6 Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Feb 17th (fwd)
Hi Toby: On Feb 15 you wrote: Where is The Moustache? I didn't see it in Mabou :-) The Mustache is "Your Father's Mustache" a pub located on Spring Garden Road in Halifax. It frequently features Cape Breton musicians. I now live in Halifax but grew up in Mabou. Mabou has only one pub, "The Red Shoe". It's for sale by the way. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Oops!! My earlier e-mail today [January 16] should have read "eighth" notes not eight. Sorry. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Re "birls" and the tunes "Brenda Stubbert's" and "Molly Rankin"s" {Cape
Breton Compositions} the execution of the down-up-down birl on these
tunes is straight forward if you play the first beat of the measure with
a down bow; the former has the birl on the first beat and the latter has
it on the "and" of the first beat with two eight notes before it which
gives you a down bow for the birl. Fiddlers might be interested in the
birling of the following tunes; "The Ale Is Dear" which has two birls
in several measures each separated by two eight notes. Exclusive
down-up-down birls would require every pair of eight notes to be
slurred. For me that's not very interesting. Two Skinner reels with the
same characteristics are "The Bungalow" and "Miss Mary Walker". On the
other hand there are many options with these types of tunes if one can
also bow up-down-up. Another interesting tune in this regard is the
strathspey "The Devil in the Kitchen" where there are successive birls.
Alexander
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Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Steve Wyrick wrote: This is interesting. I'm classically trained but pretty much self-taught in Irish & Scottish fiddling. I've always played this ornament up-down-up but recently have been making an effort to learn the reverse, for pretty much the same reasons you listed above. I didn't realize the CB fiddlers played this ornament down-up-down, but now I understand why I was having trouble with certain tunes I've encountered! I'm curious though, does anyone know WHY the CB players play the birl this way, and not the reverse? Tradition, or is there some technical reason? It is more "natural" to play a down bow on the beat and the birl is always on the beat if you consider reels are in 4/4; if you think of them as in 2/4 they are on the beat or follow two eight notes which again results in a down bow to begin the birl if the measure began with a down bow. Many tunes begin and end with a birl. Most people have difficulty with executing the birl and having acquired the skill to do it down-up-down don't feel a great need to learn it the other way. They simply slur two notes when necessary to "right the bow" to get a down motion for the birl. I can understand your difficulty in playing up-down-up birls all or most of the time because I suspect that many composers were down-up-down only players and therefor composed tunes which catered to that method of execution and were unaware of the difficulty of doing it the other way. I hope this is helpful. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Stuart Eydman said regarding his scientific analysis of Scott Skinner's birling technique as heard on one of his recordings: The principal conclusions are: 1Skinner could certainly do it 2The birl is very fast ( 0.320 sec, approx) 3The third note is considerably longer than the first two in the proportions 1 : 1 : 3 This analysis coincides completely with the Cape Breton birl which is described in my earlier e-mail today, i.e. two thirty-second notes followed by a dotted eight, 1: 1: 3, not two sixteenth notes followed by an eight or 1: 1: 2 as it is written. I can also appreciate the difficulty you refer to in getting a large group to play birls together. Many thanks for responding to my query. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Birlin'
Re many e-mails of the subject of "Birlin", here's my take on the subject. The birls are called "cuts" [translation from Gaelic] in Cape Breton. They are written in the Scottish books as three repeated notes, two sixteenth and one eight, [in my Irish books they are written as triplets] but in Cape Breton they are not played as written but more like two thirty-second notes followed by a dotted eight or followed by an eight and a sixteenth rest. [Someone mentioned that a classically trained player plays them differently than a fiddler; in my experience what the Classical player is doing is playing the tune exactly as written not as traditionally played.] As to execution, the arm, wrist and fingers are involved with the largest movement in the wrist with no tension present. Cape Breton fiddlers play the birls in the upper half of the bow. The specific placement of the bow on the string is a function of the bow hold. Fiddlers who grip the bow above the frog with the index finger and thumb tend to play at the tip whereas fiddlers who use a classical grip [all five digits, or at least four leaving out the pinkie, at the frog] place the bow anywhere from the middle to the tip depending on what effect they want. The desired effect is different not only from reel to reel but from strathspey to reel. The classical grip player has more control over bow weight and can lighten the natural bow pressure which exists at the middle of the bow due to bow weight but retain the more percussive sound obtainable there. On the other hand the thumb and index finger bow grip player must place the bow where the natural weight of the bow is suitable. Also because the birl occurs in strathspeys as well as reels, bow placement and accompanying effect are different for each. Almost all Cape Breton players play birls with a down-up-down bow. Up-down-up players are rare and players with both birls even rarer. The latter have distinct advantages. For example the inevitable slurring of notes which necessarily accompanies birls can be moved around or in some cases eliminated if desired, resulting in a variety of options in the playing of the tune. This is especially desirable in playing repeats; alternate bowing of the same notes making the tune sound "different" and have a pleasing effect on the ear. Some writers describe the birl as not being distinctive notes to the listener but as a sort of ripple resembling the grace notes on the pipes. I hear distinctive notes and the better the player the more distinctive they are. I am curious about the use of the birl in Scotland. Skinner in "A Guide to Bowing" describes the birl as "a feature of the best reels." David Johnson describe them as "still going strong at the present day" and yet in recordings I own they are missing, for example Ron Gonella. Also I have hand-written music notated by the leader of one of Scotland's best known Strathspey and Reel groups which included tunes composed by Dan R. Mac Donald in which the birls were eliminated. Astonishingly, one tune in particular "Trip to Windsor" had to have been copied from a commercial recording of Winston Fitzgerald because Winston's version differed from all published versions [parts of Winston's version are Mixolodian], did of course include birls, but in the notated version they were eliminated. Perhaps someone from Scotland would comment. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Sailor's Wife jig
Re many e-mails on subject jig, there is a E minor version in Kerr's First. Alexander Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line
Re double tonic tune discussion Hi Rob Mac Killop First a disclaimer. I am not a musician. I am a hobbyist fiddler with an intense interest in the Scottish music I grew up with in Cape Breton. I am also new to the the computer world and as a result cannot utilize its many features which would make this e-mail easier for readers to follow the discussion. Your first paragraph, "you cannot have two tonics" Why not? The word tonic is just a word to describe the note which is the focus of a tune or a portion of a tune. If a tune has two focus points it has two tonics or is "double tonic" Your second paragraph, I was referring to the Italian version of the fiddle not the earlier versions of instruments which were also called fiddles or something similar. The point I was making was that the highland pipes had been around for centuries and the characteristics, advantages disadvantages alike of the pipes or whatever instrument, have a dominating influence on the music and further that the pipes were the reason why tunes tended to be composed with two focuses, or "double tonic" Your third paragraph, The fact that pipes are used around the world does not mean that an 8 or 9 note scale is not limiting. Instruments in use are selected for a whole host of reasons not related to function. The ultimate customer for music is the human ear. The average human can hear notes which range from 16 to 16,000 vibrations per second and can distinguish 1,200 notes in that range. An 88 key piano has a range of 16 to 4000+ vibrations per second, has 12 notes per octave; the fiddle, Italian version, has a range of approx. 200 to 4000 vibrations per second, can produce not only the 55 notes as on the piano but small deviations from these pitches to achieve the most pleasing interval to the ear. The highland pipes have 9 notes, can play 8 notes of the 12 note diatonic scale, and a frequency range of approx. 400 to 800. David Johnson in his book "Scottish Fiddle Music in the Eighteenth Century" says .".By 1790 the violin had swept its competitors off the board..." This was less than 100 years after its arrival The above summary explains why this happened. Your fourth paragraph, Keys and modes, Perhaps I don't understand this. The way I see it these are two separate things, the key being the focus of a piece of music, usually where the tune starts and ends, and a mode is a given pattern of notes [usually 8] selected from a group of 12. Can't you focus any mode on any note and can't you change both the mode and the key in a tune and presto! you've a "double tonic" or "double key" tune which as I understand it is the legacy passed to us by the pipes when, for example, a tune is partly in G locritian and partly in A mixolydian or A mixolydian and B aeolian. Your fifth paragraph The C note on the highland pipes is ambiguous. Is it C or C sharpe. The designation of its scales obviously depend on which it is. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] auld sang line
Rob MacKillop wrote; There is no such thing as the double tonic. the term is meaningless. This comment intrigues me. It has been said that this characteristic, whatever you call it is the most dominant feature of of Scots music with about 1/6 of all tunes published having this feature. I have concluded, without proof I must add, that composers of music for the pipes [which were around for approximately 1000 years before the arrival of the violin] felt restricted by the fact that the pipes had a very limited compass [nine notes] and as a result composed tunes which were in two keys or "double tonic" or "double key" so as to give the tune more variety, the effect of even a few notes in an adjacent key being quite noticeable and pleasing to the ear. Allowing for the deviations from "standard pitch" aren't the available scales on the pipes A mixolydian, G major, and B Dorian and aren't "double tonic tunes'' based on these characteristic scales with the modification that with the arrival of the violin the characteristic was retained but the keys were not now restricted to A,G, and B. It seems to me that the term "double tonic" or "double key" describes the characteristics of these tunes very well. I would be very interested in your or anyone's comments Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Blue Bonnet (fwd)
Re Toby Rider's request for music to "Blue Bonnets Over the Border" , I goofed again in yesterday's e-mails, my references to the Athole collection should have read the Skye collection. Irony of ironies the 6/8 Bb version of the tune in the Athole on page 145 in the "Country Dances" section. There would appear to be some history to the the tune being played as a jig as is sometimes done in Cape Breton. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Blue Bonnet (fwd)
Re Toby Rider's request for the subject tune: [This is my second attempt to respond. I'm way down low on the computer learning curve so if you've already received this message, my apologies.] There are five tunes with this title listed in various Gow collections. They vary as to key and tempo as follows: A, Bb, D and 4/4 and 6/8. There are two listings in the Athole Collection; one is 2/4 [reel] in A on page 23 and the other is an Air in Bb and 6/8 on page 162. The version most often played in Cape Breton is the latter but I also have heard it played on the Cape as a jig which to me is a "sacrilege". The Athole was republished by Paul Cranford in 1979 and is still in print. Hope this is helpful. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Blue Bonnet (fwd)
Further to my e-mail of a few minutes ago, I neglected to list the full title of the tune for which information was requested, it is "Blue Bonnets Over The Border". There are several other tunes with the title "Blue Bonnets". Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [scots-l] Re: Blue Bonnet (fwd)
Re Toby Rider's request for music of subject tune. There are five versions of a tune or tunes with this title in various Gow collections. They vary in key and tempo as follows: A, Bb,and D; 6/8 and 4/4. There are two tunes with the title in the Athole Collection; one is a reel in A on page 23: the second one is an Air in Bb in 6/8 tempo on page 162. The latter is the one most often played in Cape Breton but I have heard it played on the Cape as a jig which to me is a "sacrilege". The Athole Collection was republished by Paul Cranford in 1979 and is still in print. Alexander Mac Donald Posted to Scots-L - The Traditional Scottish Music & Culture List - To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
