Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
grip on Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 11:18:56 AM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? When Lloyd’s gizmo said 7-Iron at 353 cpm does his software assume grip on or grip off for this value? Just wondering the assumption. Harry
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Robert. Have you ever played around with the Equaliser from the PCS? Great tool for everyone to be on the same page. André. - Original Message - From: Robert Devino To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Hi Harry Why not a 5 inch clamp. The BTR shaft is designed by the same guy that designed the rifle shafts. It is basically his next generation of rifle shaft but improved in the fact that with the new machinery he has now he doesn't need to reinforce the tip, so the BTR doesn't swing weight quite as heavy as a rifle shaft would. All shafts that Kim Braly designs are designed to be frequencied with a 2.5 clamp not a 5 clamp. I do use a 5 clamp on other manufacturers shafts. If you do any work with a Rifle , KB Steel , or a BTR and you don't use a 2.5 clamp you will not get a shaft to play the way Kim designed them too. If your using a 5 clamp to build rifles or KB steels to a rifle chart then your actually building about 20 - 25 cycles to soft. example if you build a rifle shaft to a 6.0 with a 5 clamp your really building something more in the range of a 4.0 . Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 --
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
+/- 0.25 Hosel Depth = 2 CPM. +/- 2 Grams Head wt. = 1 CPM. - Original Message - From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:42 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
What frequency meter are you using? Could be a function of how well the shaft is clamped at 2.5 vs. 5 clamp length. The possibility of wobble at 2.5 clamp length goes up significantly as the shaft gets stiffer and oscillates at a higher frequency. Tedd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:24 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Ok here is what I did exactly. Not really concerned with tip weighting because I used actual heads 3 -PW mesured at actual lengths. Using one shaft per frequency slope ie... Rifle chart 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0. 6.5. First dry fitted a 3 iron to the slope frequency for a rifle 4.0 at 39 inches. Then tipped the shaft 9/16 as per standard rifle tipping for each iron in the set. I first took a frequency reading with the 2.5 clamp and then with the 5 inch clamp. The 2.5 clamp got an almost perfect slope line. As I got to the 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, slopes the slopes with the 2.5 clamp stayed linear. The 5 clamp slopes showed a large curve when getting up into the lower irons and wedges. So if you build to a linear slope with a 5 clamp with a Rifle or BTR or KB Steel you might not be build exactly what tou think you are. Your shorter irons might just be playing a bit softer than you think. That's all I can tell you is in a side by side controlled comparison I got results that showed there is a diference. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:42:00 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com http://www.mygolfdna.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:33 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? How come you don't mention tip weight? That is certainly a major factor in determining freqs regardless of clamp insertion depth. Freq'ing with grip on only shows fewer cpm's and has nothing to do with the flex of the shaft, It's simply a matter of choice, as long as the choice is consistent, IMO. I prefer no grip testing. And, I use a 254 gram tip weight and a 5 clamp insertion. TFlan -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Andre I have not used the Equalizer by pcs what does it do ? Tedd, I am using a Mitchell set up. I don't think that's a factor becuase a wobble would create a slope getting softer at the shorter clubs not stiffer. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Childers, Tedd A [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:18:10 AM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? What frequency meter are you using? Could be a function of how well the shaft is clamped at 2.5 vs. 5 clamp length. The possibility of wobble at 2.5 clamp length goes up significantly as the shaft gets stiffer and oscillates at a higher frequency. Tedd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:24 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Ok here is what I did exactly. Not really concerned with tip weighting because I used actual heads 3 -PW mesured at actual lengths. Using one shaft per frequency slope ie... Rifle chart 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0. 6.5. First dry fitted a 3 iron to the slope frequency for a rifle 4.0 at 39 inches. Then tipped the shaft 9/16 as per standard rifle tipping for each iron in the set. I first took a frequency reading with the 2.5 clamp and then with the 5 inch clamp. The 2.5 clamp got an almost perfect slope line. As I got to the 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, slopes the slopes with the 2.5 clamp stayed linear. The 5 clamp slopes showed a large curve when getting up into the lower irons and wedges. So if you build to a linear slope with a 5 clamp with a Rifle or BTR or KB Steel you might not be build exactly what tou think you are. Your shorter irons might just be playing a bit softer than you think. That's all I can tell you is in a side by side controlled comparison I got results that showed there is a diference. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:42:00 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:33 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? How come you don't mention tip weight? That is certainly a major factor in determining freqs regardless of clamp insertion depth. Freq'ing with grip on only shows fewer cpm's and has nothing to do with the flex of the shaft, It's simply a matter of choice, as long as the choice is consistent, IMO. I prefer no grip testing. And, I use a 254 gram tip weight and a 5 clamp insertion. TFlan -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
I took it from your post that when you measured a set of clubs at 2.5 clamp length, they fit onto the straight line slope as predicted, however, when you measured using the 5 clamp length, the long irons looked fine but the short irons gave frequency measurements higher than expected. The question then becomes, which set-up (2.5 or 5) gives the real frequency on the shorter irons. IMHO, the 2.5 clamp length is more likely to induce errors than the longer, 5 clamp length, meaning that maybe the short irons really are getting stiffer than desired. Your conclusion was that the 2.5 clamp length was yielding correct results and the 5 clamp length was not, but there really is no way to know for sure. With that said, if Rifles have been designed using the 2.5 clamp length, then to get them to play as designed, one should use a 2.5 clamp length when building sets with Rifle shafts. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:02 AM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Andre I have not used the Equalizer by pcs what does it do ? Tedd, I am using a Mitchell set up. I don't think that's a factor becuase a wobble would create a slope getting softer at the shorter clubs not stiffer. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Childers, Tedd A tedd.a.child...@pfizer.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:18:10 AM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? What frequency meter are you using? Could be a function of how well the shaft is clamped at 2.5 vs. 5 clamp length. The possibility of wobble at 2.5 clamp length goes up significantly as the shaft gets stiffer and oscillates at a higher frequency. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:24 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Ok here is what I did exactly. Not really concerned with tip weighting because I used actual heads 3 -PW mesured at actual lengths. Using one shaft per frequency slope ie... Rifle chart 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0. 6.5. First dry fitted a 3 iron to the slope frequency for a rifle 4.0 at 39 inches. Then tipped the shaft 9/16 as per standard rifle tipping for each iron in the set. I first took a frequency reading with the 2.5 clamp and then with the 5 inch clamp. The 2.5 clamp got an almost perfect slope line. As I got to the 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, slopes the slopes with the 2.5 clamp stayed linear. The 5 clamp slopes showed a large curve when getting up into the lower irons and wedges. So if you build to a linear slope with a 5 clamp with a Rifle or BTR or KB Steel you might not be build exactly what tou think you are. Your shorter irons might just be playing a bit softer than you think. That's all I can tell you is in a side by side controlled comparison I got results that showed there is a diference. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:42:00 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com http://www.mygolfdna.com/ -Original Message- From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:33 PM
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
The 254 gm tip weight I use is a modifed drill chuck. I use it to establish freqs on sets of uncut iron shafts. That's for sorting them. When putting clubs together I use the actual heads, which are also weighted to so-called standard weights starting with an assumed 254 gram 5 iron head, then up and down the set 7 grams apart. On woods I use the heads after weight sorting the shafts. Fairly basic stuff. T --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com wrote: From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 5:42 PM TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com -Original Message- From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:33 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? How come you don't mention tip weight? That is certainly a major factor in determining freqs regardless of clamp insertion depth. Freq'ing with grip on only shows fewer cpm's and has nothing to do with the flex of the shaft, It's simply a matter of choice, as long as the choice is consistent, IMO. I prefer no grip testing. And, I use a 254 gram tip weight and a 5 clamp insertion. TFlan -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Ugh I'll buy that, it makes sense. It would be cool if we could find one system for all that gave us real readings. It would do alot so far as getting some kind of standard for us all to go buy. When I was at HotStix we had a machine that used a drill chuck type clamp. We used it for both Rifle and non Rifle shafts but we measured the shaft length differently. First we measured the total length of the club then for the non Rifle shafts we went 5 towards the club head, marked it and then placed that mark at the front of the clamp. Same with rifles but we only went 2.5 toward the club head and placed that at the front of the clamp. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Childers, Tedd A tedd.a.child...@pfizer.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:07:18 AM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? I took it from your post that when you measured a set of clubs at 2.5 clamp length, they fit onto the straight line slope as predicted, however, when you measured using the 5 clamp length, the long irons looked fine but the short irons gave frequency measurements higher than expected. The question then becomes, which set-up (2.5 or 5) gives the real frequency on the shorter irons. IMHO, the 2.5 clamp length is more likely to induce errors than the longer, 5 clamp length, meaning that maybe the short irons really are getting stiffer than desired. Your conclusion was that the 2.5 clamp length was yielding correct results and the 5 clamp length was not, but there really is no way to know for sure. With that said, if Rifles have been designed using the 2.5 clamp length, then to get them to play as designed, one should use a 2.5 clamp length when building sets with Rifle shafts. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:02 AM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Andre I have not used the Equalizer by pcs what does it do ? Tedd, I am using a Mitchell set up. I don't think that's a factor becuase a wobble would create a slope getting softer at the shorter clubs not stiffer. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Childers, Tedd A tedd.a.child...@pfizer.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:18:10 AM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? What frequency meter are you using? Could be a function of how well the shaft is clamped at 2.5 vs. 5 clamp length. The possibility of wobble at 2.5 clamp length goes up significantly as the shaft gets stiffer and oscillates at a higher frequency. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:24 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Ok here is what I did exactly. Not really concerned with tip weighting because I used actual heads 3 -PW mesured at actual lengths. Using one shaft per frequency slope ie... Rifle chart 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0. 6.5. First dry fitted a 3 iron to the slope frequency for a rifle 4.0 at 39 inches. Then tipped the shaft 9/16 as per standard rifle tipping for each iron in the set. I first took a frequency reading with the 2.5 clamp and then with the 5 inch clamp. The 2.5 clamp got an almost perfect slope line. As I got to the 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, slopes the slopes with the 2.5 clamp stayed linear. The 5 clamp slopes showed a large curve when getting up into the lower irons and wedges. So if you build to a linear slope with a 5 clamp with a Rifle or BTR or KB Steel you might not be build exactly what tou think you are. Your shorter irons might just be playing a bit softer than you think. That's all I can tell you is in a side by side controlled comparison I got results that showed there is a diference. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:42:00 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com -Original Message- From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com
RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
That's pretty much exactly what I do, with the exception of weighting the actual heads to whatever weight I need them to get my projected swingweight (might be based on a 254g 5-iron in one set and a 260g 5-iron in another set). Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:35 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? The 254 gm tip weight I use is a modifed drill chuck. I use it to establish freqs on sets of uncut iron shafts. That's for sorting them. When putting clubs together I use the actual heads, which are also weighted to so-called standard weights starting with an assumed 254 gram 5 iron head, then up and down the set 7 grams apart. On woods I use the heads after weight sorting the shafts. Fairly basic stuff. T --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com wrote: From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 5:42 PM TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com -Original Message- From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:33 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? How come you don't mention tip weight? That is certainly a major factor in determining freqs regardless of clamp insertion depth. Freq'ing with grip on only shows fewer cpm's and has nothing to do with the flex of the shaft, It's simply a matter of choice, as long as the choice is consistent, IMO. I prefer no grip testing. And, I use a 254 gram tip weight and a 5 clamp insertion. TFlan -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
I know that with a GS frequency unit, you will likely have problems using a 2.5 clamp length due to the design of their clamp (5+ long with slightly angled, smooth, top and bottom jaws). Depending on the type of shaft (stepped or unstepped), I occasionally have problems at 3.25 (my Brunswick equivalent length on my meter). Likely not a problem if you are using a drill chuck style clamp. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:33 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Ugh I'll buy that, it makes sense. It would be cool if we could find one system for all that gave us real readings. It would do alot so far as getting some kind of standard for us all to go buy. When I was at HotStix we had a machine that used a drill chuck type clamp. We used it for both Rifle and non Rifle shafts but we measured the shaft length differently. First we measured the total length of the club then for the non Rifle shafts we went 5 towards the club head, marked it and then placed that mark at the front of the clamp. Same with rifles but we only went 2.5 toward the club head and placed that at the front of the clamp. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Childers, Tedd A tedd.a.child...@pfizer.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 9:07:18 AM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? I took it from your post that when you measured a set of clubs at 2.5 clamp length, they fit onto the straight line slope as predicted, however, when you measured using the 5 clamp length, the long irons looked fine but the short irons gave frequency measurements higher than expected. The question then becomes, which set-up (2.5 or 5) gives the real frequency on the shorter irons. IMHO, the 2.5 clamp length is more likely to induce errors than the longer, 5 clamp length, meaning that maybe the short irons really are getting stiffer than desired. Your conclusion was that the 2.5 clamp length was yielding correct results and the 5 clamp length was not, but there really is no way to know for sure. With that said, if Rifles have been designed using the 2.5 clamp length, then to get them to play as designed, one should use a 2.5 clamp length when building sets with Rifle shafts. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:02 AM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Andre I have not used the Equalizer by pcs what does it do ? Tedd, I am using a Mitchell set up. I don't think that's a factor becuase a wobble would create a slope getting softer at the shorter clubs not stiffer. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Childers, Tedd A tedd.a.child...@pfizer.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:18:10 AM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? What frequency meter are you using? Could be a function of how well the shaft is clamped at 2.5 vs. 5 clamp length. The possibility of wobble at 2.5 clamp length goes up significantly as the shaft gets stiffer and oscillates at a higher frequency. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:24 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Ok here is what I did exactly. Not really concerned with tip weighting because I used actual heads 3 -PW mesured at actual lengths. Using one shaft per frequency slope ie... Rifle chart 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0. 6.5. First dry fitted a 3 iron to the slope frequency for a rifle 4.0 at 39 inches. Then tipped the shaft 9/16 as per standard rifle
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Robert, Regarding the method at HotStix..I assume that if you were going to build irons for a specific player, you'd have one frequency target for Rifles and a different for non-Rifles because of the different clamping length which causes different cantilevered beam lengths. Is that correct? Do you remember what the frequency difference was? Brad On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Robert Devino wrote: When I was at HotStix we had a machine that used a drill chuck type clamp. We used it for both Rifle and non Rifle shafts but we measured the shaft length differently. First we measured the total length of the club then for the non Rifle shafts we went 5 towards the club head, marked it and then placed that mark at the front of the clamp. Same with rifles but we only went 2.5 toward the club head and placed that at the front of the clamp.
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
we always went off a rifle scale but yeah the frequency's were different. I didn't have the luxery of doing comparisons when I was there but here I have found about a 20 cycle difference between clamps until you get to the higher frequency sets and the shorter irons in those sets the difference increases log rithymically Did I spell that right? LOL!) Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Brad Smith bms0...@pacbell.net To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:29:40 AM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Robert, Regarding the method at HotStix..I assume that if you were going to build irons for a specific player, you'd have one frequency target for Rifles and a different for non-Rifles because of the different clamping length which causes different cantilevered beam lengths. Is that correct? Do you remember what the frequency difference was? Brad On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Robert Devino wrote: When I was at HotStix we had a machine that used a drill chuck type clamp. We used it for both Rifle and non Rifle shafts but we measured the shaft length differently. First we measured the total length of the club then for the non Rifle shafts we went 5 towards the club head, marked it and then placed that mark at the front of the clamp. Same with rifles but we only went 2.5 toward the club head and placed that at the front of the clamp.
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
I understand the frequency difference, but I don't understand your statement about using the Rifle scale (I assume you mean freq chart) for non rifle products. If you thought a person needed a 6.0 in a Rifle, but they wanted TT, would you then build the TT, using the normal Rifle chart, to an 8.0 (20cpm higher)? Or did you have another chart, with all the Rifle slope lines just plotted 20 cpm higher and call it the Non-Rifle...5 clamp chart? Brad On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:41 AM, Robert Devino wrote: we always went off a rifle scale but yeah the frequency's were different. I didn't have the luxery of doing comparisons when I was there but here I have found about a 20 cycle difference between clamps until you get to the higher frequency sets and the shorter irons in those sets the difference increases log rithymically Did I spell that right? LOL!) Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Brad Smith bms0...@pacbell.net To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:29:40 AM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Robert, Regarding the method at HotStix..I assume that if you were going to build irons for a specific player, you'd have one frequency target for Rifles and a different for non-Rifles because of the different clamping length which causes different cantilevered beam lengths. Is that correct? Do you remember what the frequency difference was? Brad On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Robert Devino wrote: When I was at HotStix we had a machine that used a drill chuck type clamp. We used it for both Rifle and non Rifle shafts but we measured the shaft length differently. First we measured the total length of the club then for the non Rifle shafts we went 5 towards the club head, marked it and then placed that mark at the front of the clamp. Same with rifles but we only went 2.5 toward the club head and placed that at the front of the clamp.
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Yes indeedy! You may recall we went through this exercise a couple years ago, with no significant results or agreement. I've said many times that the letter designation for flex, like the number designation for irons is essentially meaningless. Every mfr has a different take on what's R or S or the like. That's one of the things I liked about the now gone Precision Composites method. I ordered shafts in frequency ranges rather than by letter. That company of course offered R flexes but with a choice of R+, R, and R-. Each of which was in frequency range. I used to order, for example, 3 of each, putting the higher flex (higher freq) shafts in the short irons, and the softer freqs in the long irons. Better still, all PC shafts had long tip lengths for additional tweaking. And, they were inexpensive. I got mine direct from the distributor in So CA. Numbers on irons are the same, misleading thing. I hit my 28 deg 7 iron farther than you hit your 32 deg 7 iron, for instance. So there's another good item to get exercised over ;-) TFlan --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com wrote: From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 1:07 PM This sure has opened up a can of worms, what is a true R, S, X flex? -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
At Hotstix we yes used the rifle chart (scale). We were given a frequency and just made the adjustment at the clamp for the type of shaft it was. So far as how far towards the head of the club off the finished length we put at the inside edge of the clamp. Here at KZG we just change clamps in the Mitchell Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Brad Smith bms0...@pacbell.net To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 12:22:08 PM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? I understand the frequency difference, but I don't understand your statement about using the Rifle scale (I assume you mean freq chart) for non rifle products. If you thought a person needed a 6.0 in a Rifle, but they wanted TT, would you then build the TT, using the normal Rifle chart, to an 8.0 (20cpm higher)? Or did you have another chart, with all the Rifle slope lines just plotted 20 cpm higher and call it the Non-Rifle...5 clamp chart? Brad On Dec 11, 2008, at 11:41 AM, Robert Devino wrote: we always went off a rifle scale but yeah the frequency's were different. I didn't have the luxery of doing comparisons when I was there but here I have found about a 20 cycle difference between clamps until you get to the higher frequency sets and the shorter irons in those sets the difference increases log rithymically Did I spell that right? LOL!) Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Brad Smith bms0...@pacbell.net To: shopt...@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:29:40 AM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Robert, Regarding the method at HotStix..I assume that if you were going to build irons for a specific player, you'd have one frequency target for Rifles and a different for non-Rifles because of the different clamping length which causes different cantilevered beam lengths. Is that correct? Do you remember what the frequency difference was? Brad On Dec 11, 2008, at 9:33 AM, Robert Devino wrote: When I was at HotStix we had a machine that used a drill chuck type clamp. We used it for both Rifle and non Rifle shafts but we measured the shaft length differently. First we measured the total length of the club then for the non Rifle shafts we went 5 towards the club head, marked it and then placed that mark at the front of the clamp. Same with rifles but we only went 2.5 toward the club head and placed that at the front of the clamp.
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
I wish we could get iron shafts like that in three frequency ranges but still close enough to build a set with. Basically that's what you do when you build a set of Flighted Rifles from blanks. So made a flighted set that's cool! Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: TFLAN tf...@prodigy.net To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 1:22:45 PM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Yes indeedy! You may recall we went through this exercise a couple years ago, with no significant results or agreement. I've said many times that the letter designation for flex, like the number designation for irons is essentially meaningless. Every mfr has a different take on what's R or S or the like. That's one of the things I liked about the now gone Precision Composites method. I ordered shafts in frequency ranges rather than by letter. That company of course offered R flexes but with a choice of R+, R, and R-. Each of which was in frequency range. I used to order, for example, 3 of each, putting the higher flex (higher freq) shafts in the short irons, and the softer freqs in the long irons. Better still, all PC shafts had long tip lengths for additional tweaking. And, they were inexpensive. I got mine direct from the distributor in So CA. Numbers on irons are the same, misleading thing. I hit my 28 deg 7 iron farther than you hit your 32 deg 7 iron, for instance. So there's another good item to get exercised over ;-) TFlan --- On Thu, 12/11/08, Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com wrote: From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 1:07 PM This sure has opened up a can of worms, what is a true R, S, X flex? -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Hi Robert. The Equalizer is a software program that was built for standardizing shaft flex for the golf Industry. This system was introduced by the PCS a couple of years back for members only. The package included a shaft with a predetermined frequency( precision shaft with a high swingweight) to use as a calibration shaft that allows you to make a correction change in the software so that you and I can build clubs that will be the same flex on either of our frequency analyzers.In other words if your meter reads 302 with the calibration shaft and mine reads 309 the software will make all necessary adjustments so that we will have the same numbers for a 4.0 slope all the way to a 7. André.
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Robert. Tim at Myostrich has all about it on his website if interested: http://www.myostrichgolf.com/equalizer/ André. - Original Message - From: Robert Devino To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Andre I have not used the Equalizer by pcs what does it do ? Tedd, I am using a Mitchell set up. I don't think that's a factor becuase a wobble would create a slope getting softer at the shorter clubs not stiffer. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 -- From: Childers, Tedd A tedd.a.child...@pfizer.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 5:18:10 AM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? What frequency meter are you using? Could be a function of how well the shaft is clamped at 2.5 vs. 5 clamp length. The possibility of wobble at 2.5 clamp length goes up significantly as the shaft gets stiffer and oscillates at a higher frequency. Tedd From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 9:24 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Ok here is what I did exactly. Not really concerned with tip weighting because I used actual heads 3 -PW mesured at actual lengths. Using one shaft per frequency slope ie... Rifle chart 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0. 6.5. First dry fitted a 3 iron to the slope frequency for a rifle 4.0 at 39 inches. Then tipped the shaft 9/16 as per standard rifle tipping for each iron in the set. I first took a frequency reading with the 2.5 clamp and then with the 5 inch clamp. The 2.5 clamp got an almost perfect slope line. As I got to the 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, slopes the slopes with the 2.5 clamp stayed linear. The 5 clamp slopes showed a large curve when getting up into the lower irons and wedges. So if you build to a linear slope with a 5 clamp with a Rifle or BTR or KB Steel you might not be build exactly what tou think you are. Your shorter irons might just be playing a bit softer than you think. That's all I can tell you is in a side by side controlled comparison I got results that showed there is a diference. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel h...@touriq.com To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:42:00 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com -Original Message- From: owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com [mailto:owner-shopt...@mail.msen.com] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:33 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? How come you don't mention tip weight? That is certainly a major factor in determining freqs regardless of clamp insertion depth. Freq'ing with grip on only shows fewer cpm's and has nothing to do with the flex of the shaft, It's simply a matter of choice, as long as the choice is consistent, IMO. I prefer no grip testing. And, I use a 254 gram tip weight and a 5 clamp insertion. TFlan -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.16/1843 - Release Date: 2008-12-11 08:36
RE: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
The frequency measurement instructions/methods on the original Brunswick shafts were very precise, and to my understanding factory measurements were always done with a 2.5 clamp on ungripped shafts and at a specific clamping pressure. The commercially available Brunswick machine that used to be sold was really just for demonstration purposes, and thus was designed to measure clubs with the grips on. That unit measured clubs with grips, and at a 4.5 clamping length (and preferably with a GP Tour Wrap grip). The measured frequency at 4.5 with a grip should correspond to the factory unit that used the 2.5 clamp length with no grip. In fact, the commercially available unit came with a calibration shaft, that was essentially a Rifle shaft with a drill chuck on the tip, and that was calibrated at the factory (i.e. measured in their unit at 2.5 ungripped). You would place that calibration shaft in your unit using a slit Tour Wrap grip at 4.5 to verify that your unit was reading the proper frequency. The calibration shaft that I used had the frequency stated down to tenths of a CPM. I didn't have a Brunswick FM (my buddy did), but I used his calibration shaft to calibrate my GS unit to the Brunswick scale (which required a 3.25 ungripped clamp length and ~5 gripped clamp length, likely due to a slightly lower clamp pressure on my GS unit). Tedd From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 3:15 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Hi Harry Why not a 5 inch clamp. The BTR shaft is designed by the same guy that designed the rifle shafts. It is basically his next generation of rifle shaft but improved in the fact that with the new machinery he has now he doesn't need to reinforce the tip, so the BTR doesn't swing weight quite as heavy as a rifle shaft would. All shafts that Kim Braly designs are designed to be frequencied with a 2.5 clamp not a 5 clamp. I do use a 5 clamp on other manufacturers shafts. If you do any work with a Rifle , KB Steel , or a BTR and you don't use a 2.5 clamp you will not get a shaft to play the way Kim designed them too. If your using a 5 clamp to build rifles or KB steels to a rifle chart then your actually building about 20 - 25 cycles to soft. example if you build a rifle shaft to a 6.0 with a 5 clamp your really building something more in the range of a 4.0 . Grip or grip off is a good question. I did mine with grip off. Personally I always frequency with grip off becuase for one thing you can change a clubs frequency by changing what grip they use and to just have some kind of shop standard I went with grip off for our builds. Loyd the guy that wrote the program for the FitChip said he does grip on. But what if the fitting club doesn't have the same grip as the grip he wants to use ?? This is a personal thing that varies from builder to builder or fitter to fitter. Like I said we are experimenting with this thing right now to see if we want to actually use it or not. I don't know how a 334 cpm gives you a stiffer flex than a 343 cpm I am hoping you just have your numbers crossed. But your absolutely right I had to used a DG X 100 to get there, no way I could get there with any BTR or Rifle shaft. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 10:54:22 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Hi Robert, Why do you not use a 5 clamp like most other clubmakers so cpm numbers can be compared easily? Just curious! When you specify FitChip fitting it recommend that I be using a 7-iron cycling at 353 cycles using a 5 clamp. I have a question ... does this stated number assume a grip on or a grip off? My son plays a 7-iron at length 36.75. Using 5 inch clamp, it is 343 cpm or 7.9 flex with grip off and 334 cpm or 8.1 flex with grip on. So basically he is playing the equivalent of a Rifle Flex 8.0 = XX-Stiff. What steel shaft would you have to buy to get it to be a XXX-Stiff flex, which would be close to your stated 353 cpm? I do not think a DG X-100 tipped will give you this kind of number unless you have an extremely low swingweight, and many Rifle shafts are sold up to 6.5 flex. Just curious how you build a demo 7-iron with steel shaft at XXX flex? Thanks Harry S www.myGolfDNA.com http://www.mygolfdna.com/ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Bob, I think the point that Harry was making regarding the Braly shafts is, why not redraw the frequency charts based on 5 clamping? (generally considered to be the clubmaker's standard). His physical designs can be measured a million different ways (clamp length, tip weight, gripped/ungripped, etc), but the shaft doesn't change. Clubmakers just want/need standard methods for measuring, comparing and trimming. My guess is he probably came up with his 2.5 just to be different and exclusive and to make it a little more special. Also, to make it tougher to compare his shafts to other manufacturer's in terms of published physical properties or matching. And regarding his son's club, he said it measured 334 gripped and 343 ungripped Brad On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Robert Devino wrote: Hi Harry Why not a 5 inch clamp. The BTR shaft is designed by the same guy that designed the rifle shafts. It is basically his next generation of rifle shaft but improved in the fact that with the new machinery he has now he doesn't need to reinforce the tip, so the BTR doesn't swing weight quite as heavy as a rifle shaft would. All shafts that Kim Braly designs are designed to be frequencied with a 2.5 clamp not a 5 clamp. I do use a 5 clamp on other manufacturers shafts. If you do any work with a Rifle , KB Steel , or a BTR and you don't use a 2.5 clamp you will not get a shaft to play the way Kim designed them too. If your using a 5 clamp to build rifles or KB steels to a rifle chart then your actually building about 20 - 25 cycles to soft. example if you build a rifle shaft to a 6.0 with a 5 clamp your really building something more in the range of a 4.0 . Grip or grip off is a good question. I did mine with grip off. Personally I always frequency with grip off becuase for one thing you can change a clubs frequency by changing what grip they use and to just have some kind of shop standard I went with grip off for our builds. Loyd the guy that wrote the program for the FitChip said he does grip on. But what if the fitting club doesn't have the same grip as the grip he wants to use ?? This is a personal thing that varies from builder to builder or fitter to fitter. Like I said we are experimenting with this thing right now to see if we want to actually use it or not. I don't know how a 334 cpm gives you a stiffer flex than a 343 cpm I am hoping you just have your numbers crossed. But your absolutely right I had to used a DG X 100 to get there, no way I could get there with any BTR or Rifle shaft. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 10:54:22 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Hi Robert, Why do you not use a 5” clamp like most other clubmakers so cpm numbers can be compared easily? Just curious! When you specify “FitChip fitting it recommend that I be using a 7-iron cycling at 353 cycles using a 5 clamp.” I have a question … does this stated number assume a grip on or a grip off? My son plays a 7-iron at length 36.75. Using 5 inch clamp, it is 343 cpm or 7.9 flex with grip off and 334 cpm or 8.1 flex with grip on. So basically he is playing the equivalent of a Rifle Flex 8.0 = XX-Stiff. What steel shaft would you have to buy to get it to be a XXX-Stiff flex, which would be close to your stated 353 cpm? I do not think a DG X-100 tipped will give you this kind of number unless you have an extremely low swingweight, and many Rifle shafts are sold up to 6.5 flex. Just curious how you build a demo 7-iron with steel shaft at XXX flex? Thanks Harry S www.myGolfDNA.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:18 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers You can put any club in a 1 handicapers hand and they will hit it just fine in just a few swings. They might not hit it as well as a well fitted club but they will adjust their swing and hit it pretty good. Put that long driver in the average golfers hand and they will loose accuracy for sure. It's just plain harder for them to get the club around and hit the center of the face. If you doubt this gt some of your buddys together and some imact tape and go test it out. Now Dave your gonna love this. Recently we have started testing the FitChip . Well it's been giving us some pretty interesting numbers to build for people. First off i personaly play a BTR shaft designed and manufactured by Kim Braly. It's pretty much his next version of a rifle shaft. On a rifle scale I hit a 6.0 so my 7 iron's CPM is 310 cycles (thats with a 2.5 clamp that would be about 335 with a 5 clamp). This being determined by a swing speed calculation table that
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
How come you don't mention tip weight? That is certainly a major factor in determining freqs regardless of clamp insertion depth. Freq'ing with grip on only shows fewer cpm's and has nothing to do with the flex of the shaft, It's simply a matter of choice, as long as the choice is consistent, IMO. I prefer no grip testing. And, I use a 254 gram tip weight and a 5 clamp insertion. TFlan --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Robert Devino [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Robert Devino [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 12:15 PM Hi Harry Why not a 5 inch clamp. The BTR shaft is designed by the same guy that designed the rifle shafts. It is basically his next generation of rifle shaft but improved in the fact that with the new machinery he has now he doesn't need to reinforce the tip, so the BTR doesn't swing weight quite as heavy as a rifle shaft would. All shafts that Kim Braly designs are designed to be frequencied with a 2.5 clamp not a 5 clamp. I do use a 5 clamp on other manufacturers shafts. If you do any work with a Rifle , KB Steel , or a BTR and you don't use a 2.5 clamp you will not get a shaft to play the way Kim designed them too. If your using a 5 clamp to build rifles or KB steels to a rifle chart then your actually building about 20 - 25 cycles to soft. example if you build a rifle shaft to a 6.0 with a 5 clamp your really building something more in the range of a 4.0 . Grip or grip off is a good question. I did mine with grip off. Personally I always frequency with grip off becuase for one thing you can change a clubs frequency by changing what grip they use and to just have some kind of shop standard I went with grip off for our builds. Loyd the guy that wrote the program for the FitChip said he does grip on. But what if the fitting club doesn't have the same grip as the grip he wants to use ?? This is a personal thing that varies from builder to builder or fitter to fitter. Like I said we are experimenting with this thing right now to see if we want to actually use it or not. I don't know how a 334 cpm gives you a stiffer flex than a 343 cpm I am hoping you just have your numbers crossed. But your absolutely right I had to used a DG X 100 to get there, no way I could get there with any BTR or Rifle shaft. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 10:54:22 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Hi Robert, Why do you not use a 5” clamp like most other clubmakers so cpm numbers can be compared easily? Just curious! When you specify “FitChip fitting it recommend that I be using a 7-iron cycling at 353 cycles using a 5 clamp.” I have a question … does this stated number assume a grip on or a grip off? My son plays a 7-iron at length 36.75. Using 5 inch clamp, it is 343 cpm or 7.9 flex with grip off and 334 cpm or 8.1 flex with grip on. So basically he is playing the equivalent of a Rifle Flex 8.0 = XX-Stiff. What steel shaft would you have to buy to get it to be a XXX-Stiff flex, which would be close to your stated 353 cpm? I do not think a DG X-100 tipped will give you this kind of number unless you have an extremely low swingweight, and many Rifle shafts are sold up to 6.5 flex. Just curious how you build a demo 7-iron with steel shaft at XXX flex? Thanks Harry S www.myGolfDNA.com From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Devino Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 9:18 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Performance benefits of long drivers You can put any club in a 1 handicapers hand and they will hit it just fine in just a few swings. They might not hit it as well as a well fitted club but they will adjust their swing and hit it pretty good. Put that long driver in the average golfers hand and they will loose accuracy for sure. It's just plain harder for them to get the club around and hit the center of the face. If you doubt this gt some of your buddys together and some imact tape and go test it out. Now Dave your gonna love this. Recently we have started testing the FitChip . Well it's been giving us some pretty interesting numbers to build for people. First off i personaly play a BTR shaft designed and manufactured by Kim Braly. It's pretty much his next version of a rifle shaft. On a rifle scale I hit a 6.0 so my 7 iron's CPM is 310 cycles (thats with a 2.5 clamp that would be about 335 with a 5 clamp). This being determined by a swing speed calculation table that we use (commonly used by a lot of fitters). Any way, after going through a FitChip fitting it recomenede that I be using a 7
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Actually when I first came to work at KZG I did tipping profiles for a complete iron set at diferent stiffnesses with both a 2.5 clamp and a 5 clamp. What I found is that at the hgher frequencies and shorter clubs like 9, PW, and wedges was that with a 2.5 clamp I got a straight line slope. With a 5 clamp the shorter clubs showed a logrithmic curve with increasing gaps between the two clamps rather than a staight line slope. Well I thought I was going to get straight line slopes with both just about 20 cycles apart, I mean that would be logical right so I asked Kim about this and he told me there was a difference in the way the butt was designed and you could only get a good read with a 2.5 clamp as to how the club would actually play. That's what Kim told me. But like I said , Loyd who designed the Fitchip used a 5 clamp to do his programing calculations off of even on rifle shafts. Say what you want about his methods but I think the numbers are around 50% of the touring pros are playing a Kim Braly design of some kind. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Brad Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 1:54:50 PM Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Bob, I think the point that Harry was making regarding the Braly shafts is, why not redraw the frequency charts based on 5 clamping? (generally considered to be the clubmaker's standard). His physical designs can be measured a million different ways (clamp length, tip weight, gripped/ungripped, etc), but the shaft doesn't change. Clubmakers just want/need standard methods for measuring, comparing and trimming. My guess is he probably came up with his 2.5 just to be different and exclusive and to make it a little more special. Also, to make it tougher to compare his shafts to other manufacturer's in terms of published physical properties or matching. And regarding his son's club, he said it measured 334 gripped and 343 ungripped Brad On Dec 10, 2008, at 12:15 PM, Robert Devino wrote: Hi Harry Why not a 5 inch clamp. The BTR shaft is designed by the same guy that designed the rifle shafts. It is basically his next generation of rifle shaft but improved in the fact that with the new machinery he has now he doesn't need to reinforce the tip, so the BTR doesn't swing weight quite as heavy as a rifle shaft would. All shafts that Kim Braly designs are designed to be frequencied with a 2.5 clamp not a 5 clamp. I do use a 5 clamp on other manufacturers shafts. If you do any work with a Rifle , KB Steel , or a BTR and you don't use a 2.5 clamp you will not get a shaft to play the way Kim designed them too. If your using a 5 clamp to build rifles or KB steels to a rifle chart then your actually building about 20 - 25 cycles to soft. example if you build a rifle shaft to a 6.0 with a 5 clamp your really building something more in the range of a 4.0 . Grip or grip off is a good question. I did mine with grip off. Personally I always frequency with grip off becuase for one thing you can change a clubs frequency by changing what grip they use and to just have some kind of shop standard I went with grip off for our builds. Loyd the guy that wrote the program for the FitChip said he does grip on. But what if the fitting club doesn't have the same grip as the grip he wants to use ?? This is a personal thing that varies from builder to builder or fitter to fitter. Like I said we are experimenting with this thing right now to see if we want to actually use it or not. I don't know how a 334 cpm gives you a stiffer flex than a 343 cpm I am hoping you just have your numbers crossed. But your absolutely right I had to used a DG X 100 to get there, no way I could get there with any BTR or Rifle shaft. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 10:54:22 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? Hi Robert, Why do you not use a 5” clamp like most other clubmakers so cpm numbers can be compared easily? Just curious! When you specify “FitChip fitting it recommend that I be using a 7-iron cycling at 353 cycles using a 5 clamp.” I have a question … does this stated number assume a grip on or a grip off? My son plays a 7-iron at length 36.75. Using 5 inch clamp, it is 343 cpm or 7.9 flex with grip off and 334 cpm or 8.1 flex with grip on. So basically he is playing the equivalent of a Rifle Flex 8.0 = XX-Stiff. What steel shaft would you have to buy to get it to be a XXX-Stiff flex, which would be close to your stated 353 cpm? I do not think a DG X-100 tipped will give you this kind of number unless you have an extremely low swingweight, and many Rifle shafts are sold up
Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how?
Ok here is what I did exactly. Not really concerned with tip weighting because I used actual heads 3 -PW mesured at actual lengths. Using one shaft per frequency slope ie... Rifle chart 4.0, 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, 6.0. 6.5. First dry fitted a 3 iron to the slope frequency for a rifle 4.0 at 39 inches. Then tipped the shaft 9/16 as per standard rifle tipping for each iron in the set. I first took a frequency reading with the 2.5 clamp and then with the 5 inch clamp. The 2.5 clamp got an almost perfect slope line. As I got to the 5.5, 6.0, 6.5, slopes the slopes with the 2.5 clamp stayed linear. The 5 clamp slopes showed a large curve when getting up into the lower irons and wedges. So if you build to a linear slope with a 5 clamp with a Rifle or BTR or KB Steel you might not be build exactly what tou think you are. Your shorter irons might just be playing a bit softer than you think. That's all I can tell you is in a side by side controlled comparison I got results that showed there is a diference. Sincerely, Robert Devino 14252 Delano St. Van Nuys, Ca. 91401 (818) 770-0475 From: Harry F. Schiestel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:42:00 PM Subject: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? TFlan you are indeed correct, it's important to also state the tip weight used. For irons and woods I use a 205 gram drill chuck. What do you use for wood shafts, do you still use 254 grams or do you drop it down to 205 gram wt.? I wonder what the difference in cpm would be using a GS 5 butt clamp going from 205 gram to 254 gram tip weight? Anyone knows, I would like to know what the drop in cpm's would be with using an extra 49 grams wt. Thanks, Harry Schiestel www.myGolfDNA.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of TFLAN Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:33 PM To: ShopTalk@mail.msen.com Subject: Re: ShopTalk: 7-iron at 353 cpm - how? How come you don't mention tip weight? That is certainly a major factor in determining freqs regardless of clamp insertion depth. Freq'ing with grip on only shows fewer cpm's and has nothing to do with the flex of the shaft, It's simply a matter of choice, as long as the choice is consistent, IMO. I prefer no grip testing. And, I use a 254 gram tip weight and a 5 clamp insertion. TFlan -- Shoptalk ** Sponsored by the new Aldila Voodoo. Learn more at http://aldilavoodoo.com/
