Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote: 2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up quickly. As somebody who had to shell out Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes just to get a trade licence for his restaurant, trust me that Rs. 5 per day, even per application, is peanuts. Now imagine the bribe amount multiplied by the number of licences issued. -- * Madhu Menon Shiok Far-eastern Cuisine | Moss Cocktail Lounge 96, Amar Jyoti Layout, Inner Ring Road, Bangalore @ http://shiokfood.comhttp://mosslounge.com Join the Moss group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39295417270
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Venkat Mangudi's Silk Account s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: Agreed, it is Rs 5/day/application. If it was 10x it might make a small difference. Rs 5 ia too paltry a sum for them to scare them to action. They probably earn 1000x as cutbacks. Sorry, but my opinion is not very high. I think the fine amount is somewhat higher than this. I am saying this because it was originally conceived to be a deterrent. In fact, when my former colleagues and I threatened a municipal clerk in Bombay on taking her to the appellate authority and having her fined, she was really scared. I will check and find out what is the precise fine amount. I also think the amount increases after a certain period, but am not entirely sure ... I also hear Zainab's statement a bout frivolous pleas and such. But the act is a law and everyone has to abide by it or amend it. That is the most interesting thing about laws. They have fantastic unintended consequences, as do regulations. This does not mean that I am advocating people don't use RTI. It is interesting to note what happens when people begin to use the law rather excessively and frivolously. Hirschmann talks about situations like these in Exit, Voice and Loyalty and provides interesting analyses. On 4/29/09, Kiran Jonnalagadda j...@pobox.com wrote: 2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up quickly. -- Sent from my mobile device -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
As somebody who had to shell out Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes just to get a trade licence for his restaurant, trust me that Rs. 5 per day, even per application, is peanuts. Now imagine the bribe amount multiplied by the number of licences issued. How many such licenses do get issued any way, let's say per month? Would be interesting to find out. And who levies the bribe? Is it municipal government departments or state government departments or both? -- * Madhu Menon Shiok Far-eastern Cuisine | Moss Cocktail Lounge 96, Amar Jyoti Layout, Inner Ring Road, Bangalore @ http://shiokfood.comhttp://mosslounge.com Join the Moss group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39295417270 -- Zainab Bawa Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher Between Places ... http://zainab.freecrow.org
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Ok, fairly interesting book. Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism studies. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she should be read with a pinch of salt - [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a dishonest book that justifies war.] I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4 versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want to check out the talk section for it too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm poor too :) Kiran
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 17:27 +0530, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote: Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. She seems inclined to use Freud, yes. But as the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism studies. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she should be read with a pinch of salt - [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a dishonest book that justifies war.] You can add http://ramesh-n-rao.sulekha.com/blog/post/2000/12/pursuing-the-gita.htm to you collection of anti-Doniger screeds. Bagger Vance and R. Junuh indeed! Searching through the Philadelphia Inquirer's archives (from 1981 to present) failed to yield that infamous November 19, 2000 quote by Doniger about the Gita being a dishonest book and not as nice a book as Americans think. I don't think many would disagree that it proclaims just wars to be justified.
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Ah Kiran, I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of argument stand out. Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books. So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-) -- Bharat On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Ok, fairly interesting book. Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism studies. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she should be read with a pinch of salt - [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a dishonest book that justifies war.] I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4 versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want to check out the talk section for it too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm poor too :) Kiran
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
I am just wondering whether these reviewers would consider Michaevelli's The Prince as an honest book while the Gita is dishonest? Just because one provides no apologia while the other seems to qualify it's message based on the position in society? One friend felt the Mahabharat to be highly casteist - the prejudice is openly displayed visavis Karna for example as the adopted son of a charioteer. I agree. Of course this person was Greek and did not seem to think the Odyssey has a fair amount of fatalism. On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:05 AM, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.comwrote: Ah Kiran, I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of argument stand out. Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books. So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-) -- Bharat On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Ok, fairly interesting book. Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism studies. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she should be read with a pinch of salt - [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a dishonest book that justifies war.] I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4 versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want to check out the talk section for it too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm poor too :) Kiran
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
--- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote: From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History') To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM Ah Kiran, I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of argument stand out. As opposed to the other type of writer who try to write carelessly 'as to make their side of argument' stand in? Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books. What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all on the Hindu Mahasabha in this base, rotten scoundrel's books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn his book? Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy? So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-) Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended to in suitably earnest mood, with some tissues at one's side. What fun? -- Bharat On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Ok, fairly interesting book. Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism studies. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she should be read with a pinch of salt - [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a dishonest book that justifies war.] I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4 versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want to check out the talk section for it too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm poor too :) Kiran Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Ok, You make me sound like I'm actually on a side. I will rephrase my sentence, if that makes you happy. I will take back that I'm going to read that book for fun statement. Instead, honestly I want to know the other alternative view point and I'm a person who reads and want to know all view points. Guha's books are more of selected facts based on selected research and most of them are accurate and valid. But still I still stand to my view that he carefully writes the way he wants. Anyone who reads his book can make that out. Did I say there was no Hindu Mahasabha and they were an organization without flaws ? You are only bringing that here. And as for your points on why they wont burn his books, Guha hardly writes any stuffs that are viewed sensitively like Arun Shourie who wrote a book on Ambedkar and was dragged into streets and abused physically and that book was subsequently banned. You seem to forget that Hindu Mahasabha got chided out for protesting against partition, which itself is root of many communal problems plaguing out country these days. -- Bharat On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote: From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History') To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM Ah Kiran, I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of argument stand out. As opposed to the other type of writer who try to write carelessly 'as to make their side of argument' stand in? Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books. What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all on the Hindu Mahasabha in this base, rotten scoundrel's books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn his book? Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy? So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-) Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended to in suitably earnest mood, with some tissues at one's side. What fun? -- Bharat On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Ok, fairly interesting book. Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism studies. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she should be read with a pinch of salt - [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a dishonest book that justifies war.] I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4 versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want to check out the talk section for it too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm poor too :) Kiran Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
For Chris' sakes. That was intended to be funny. Give me a break, do. I never comment on religion or respond to the religious, of whatever confession. If ever I do, it is safe to assume that it is an attempt at humour. In this case, a terribly misplaced attempt. --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote: From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History') To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 7:39 PM Ok, You make me sound like I'm actually on a side. I will rephrase my sentence, if that makes you happy. I will take back that I'm going to read that book for fun statement. Instead, honestly I want to know the other alternative view point and I'm a person who reads and want to know all view points. Guha's books are more of selected facts based on selected research and most of them are accurate and valid. But still I still stand to my view that he carefully writes the way he wants. Anyone who reads his book can make that out. Did I say there was no Hindu Mahasabha and they were an organization without flaws ? You are only bringing that here. And as for your points on why they wont burn his books, Guha hardly writes any stuffs that are viewed sensitively like Arun Shourie who wrote a book on Ambedkar and was dragged into streets and abused physically and that book was subsequently banned. You seem to forget that Hindu Mahasabha got chided out for protesting against partition, which itself is root of many communal problems plaguing out country these days. -- Bharat On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote: --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote: From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History') To: silklist@lists.hserus.net Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM Ah Kiran, I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of argument stand out. As opposed to the other type of writer who try to write carelessly 'as to make their side of argument' stand in? Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books. What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all on the Hindu Mahasabha in this base, rotten scoundrel's books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn his book? Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy? So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-) Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended to in suitably earnest mood, with some tissues at one's side. What fun? -- Bharat On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com Ok, fairly interesting book. Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism studies. http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she should be read with a pinch of salt - [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a dishonest book that justifies war.] I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4 versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want to check out the talk section for it too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm poor too :) Kiran Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/ Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to http://in.business.yahoo.com/
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Having said that, I wonder if there is any service that allows people at USA order books from Indian stores with delivery to the US listed addresses ? The books I get here are WAY cheaper than the US, but they almost all say For sale only in India, Pakistan, Bangalesh, Sri Lanka, etc. Just like region codes for DVDs, it's a scheme to base prices on the cost of living. Fair enough, that's business.
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Searching through the Philadelphia Inquirer's archives (from 1981 to present) failed to yield that infamous November 19, 2000 quote by Doniger about the Gita being a dishonest book and not as nice a book as Americans think. Yes. I tried the same and couldn't, but even if you do, you have to pay $2.95 to access the article. But searching for it yields too many results for it to be a case of misquoting. Also, among the search results, I don't see any which mention she was misquoted. If you do, please let me know. I don't think many would disagree that it proclaims just wars to be justified. The reasoning is little more complicated than that, but if you want to sum up the philosophy in a few words by interpreting it only in the context in which the sermon was delivered, then yes, I suppose you could arrive at that conclusion. Kiran
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home. Brits were kinda uptight back then. See The Family Guy for the scene where they depict British Porn (probably on You Tube). Hilarious. Recoiling from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the relatively rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at the Taj Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and what I heard; it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had definite outlines and horizons.” Yeah, as an infidel. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel) -- welcome to Monotheism: there can be only one The British Army captain who discovered the erotic temples of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how “extremely indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples profaned a “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the worship, still widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl Marx inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” had degraded himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god. Fornication rules. Watch the Animal Channel -- under our civilian vaneer we are so much like our primate cousins that it's chilling. Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language exclusive to Brahmins. My ancestors were Brahmins -- both landlords and civil servants in recent history. When I hear how they treated non-Brahmins, it makes me furious. Egalitarianism isn't beneficient, it's protecting ones own freedom. And they found keen collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and translators. This British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many invented traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th centuries Everybody wants to rule the world. That should be the qualifiing test to make sure that you're never allowed to. These mostly upper-caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the modernization and homogenization of “Hinduism.” And in the US, rich people brandish Christianity while mocking Obama for saying We all do better when we share the wealth a little bit. What kind of pinko commie would say that (Why... their own Jesus Christ). People with money and power use whatever powers they can to hold their own positions and enfranchise their children to it. Far from being a slave to mindless superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly ambiguous view of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the characters of the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be regarded as villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically interrelated in a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the theologians of the so-called war on terror. Polemic thought makes everything easier. It makes hate and love so much more passionate. Nevermind that it mirrors almost nothing in the natural world. Brain hurt me think too hard, ugh. As she puts it, “It’s not all about Brahmins, Sanskrit, the Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who destroyed innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions of Indians to Islam. It makes perfect sense to me that people disenfranchised by Hinduism would willingly convert. Shovel your own nightsoil, Brahmins. BTW, Christianity permeanted the Roman Empire in the same way -- blessed are the poor? One life and then heaven? Where do I sign up?!? Can't blame 'em. I'd have done the same. Happily, it will also serve as a salutary antidote to the fanatics who perceive — correctly — the fluid existential identities and commodious metaphysic of practiced Indian religions as a threat to their project of a culturally homogenous and militant nation-state. I think they'd find any pretext for this. I'm somewhat surprised how violent the empahtically indenfied Hindus are here. Lets do some empericism. Traits of the most economically successful countries with the highest average level quality of life: 1) Not very religious 2) Highly egalitarian 3) Polite drivers who follow the rules 4) Low corruption 5) Alcohol consumption 6) High degree of women's rights, and promiscuity 7) Low or no abject poverty 8) Low violence and crime (I'm not talking about the US on this -- mainly western Europe) I dunno what it is but the countries that treat women like second class citizens, are incredibly concerned about everyone elses sex life (and limiting it), drive like thoughless maniacs (e.g. don't give a crap about anyone but themselves,
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote: Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home. Brits were kinda uptight back then. See The Family Guy for the scene where they depict British Porn (probably on You Tube). Hilarious. I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US remake by NBC which was pretty lame) -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US remake by NBC which was pretty lame) -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series) You could not be more right. I loved the UK Coupling, own every episode. Jeff Murdoch is a prophet! :-)
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] circumstances. Also, lower level officers tend to get fined more often than the higher level bureaucrats and this could mean a lot not only in monetary terms, but also bringing them under the ire and fire of seniors, Wasnt the Act supposed to introduce transparency in the first place? So it would be interesting to see the fines shared across the hierarchy. Not sure if it will change the bureaucratic attitude though. Albert O Hirschmann's work titled Exit, Voice and Loyalty is very interesting in regard to RTI. Hirschmann analyzes what happens when people have too many options to exercise their voice and when too many people decide to express their voice in particular circumstances. He tries to understand these patterns in the context of feedback cycles and how these cycles can get skewed in situations when one option is exercised excessively than the other. Well, democracy is not always democratic and freedom does not mean absolute freedom either *shrug* As in? What would be the examples. Just curious. ... and then there are cases where the acts could have been used to harass another officer (or seniors), stop promotions, question X/Y/Z action and raise straw-man arguments, allude and ... you get the point !! Frivolous cases do reduce the positive impact an Act could bring about and the officer (you cited) has a point about the right information falling into wrong hands (think terrorists with local networks). Kinda sad but not surprising. Perhaps corruption and dirty politics is so brazenly woven into the fabric of daily life that we have no choice but accept and live with it. Is there no scope for change? :( Would be interesting to know which cases these are. Yes indeed. Atleast Kejriwal was honest enough to admit that he had not expected the misuse of the Act nor the delays within the system. was associated with in Mumbai tried to help a person to file an RTI with the metropolitan development authority to know how and where builders had used development rights in the city, we got a blatant response saying, Here are the contact details of the Appellate Authority. Go an lodge an appeal saying we are not giving you this information. !!! hah, the case would take years to be heard, another few years to get a judgement, and so on... take the Mumbai 26/11 terrorism case where despite the evidence, Kasab's lawyer is trying to pass him off as a juvenile, Who is to blame for the frivolousness being indulged in, while a terrorist enjoys state hospitality at the tax-payers expense. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: . wrote: 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke. Probably because even this (AK may have said 50 bucks a day. I dont remember his exact words) paltry fine does not get implemented by the Commission (staffed by Ex-bureaucrats, but ofcourse) which definitely has the authority. @Madhu : I'm told Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes (a 2% cut??) would be the going rate, mandatory in any Indian entrepreneur circle. Ah. Here, in a few sentences, we have an explanation of why social initiatives and voluntary activities don't work on a sustained basis in India. (And very few of us put it so honestly as Venkat has done.) Each of us is fighting our own battles on various fronts, to get ahead in our lives and careers. Every morning, I do not know if I will have electricity, water...whether the creaky infrastructure that keeps my life going will work, or at what points it will break down...and what sudden measures will have to be adopted to patch up and keep going. Your words remind me of a recent movie on Bharathiar aired on TV (no ad breaks, which speaks volumes but i digress) which introduced facets of his life I had not known. It was sad to see his wife reduced to tears while struggling with abject poverty and not knowing how she would feed her two daughters the next meal whilst her husband was being feted for his iconic stand on womens rights. While he was busy breaking tradition by hugging a donkey, it was his wife bearing the brunt of societal ire. It was so ironic. That is not to say that women activists and reformers dont exist but maybe women are differently wired. And there is truth in the saying charity begins at home. [snipped the good stuff you've been up to..] Well, there will, thankfully, be many people who have both the time, enthusiasm, and inclination to try and make changes...but don't judge the people who are not able to, or willing to, get into this. I wonder why I suddenly burst out like this...! Oh well, let it stand. I grok what you mean. Your experience reminds me that change is hard but bringing about positive change is harder, a lot harder than one can imagine. Especially when you are the only one feeling victorious (besides the harassment and umpteen trips to-n-fro) instead of taking the (gr)easy way out. The pressure is akin to climbing Everest sans protective winter gear, i imagine. -- .
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote: I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US remake by NBC which was pretty lame) -- Vinayak 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series) You could not be more right. I loved the UK Coupling, own every episode. Jeff Murdoch is a prophet! :-) Yay ! another coupling fan :) The wordplay, the double entendres (hidden connections ala Seinfeld) interspersed all over the dialogue makes it more fun to watch it with friends as they are sometimes difficult to spot. -- Vinayak
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Vinayak Hegde wrote: I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US remake by NBC which was pretty lame) I have four seasons of the show, if anyone is interested... Venkat
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
I also hear Zainab's statement a bout frivolous pleas and such. But the act is a law and everyone has to abide by it or amend it. That is the most interesting thing about laws. They have fantastic unintended consequences, as do regulations. This does not mean that I am advocating people don't use RTI. It is interesting to note what happens when people begin to use the law rather excessively and frivolously. Hirschmann I don't have any experience with RTI requests, but a significant part of my job involves dealing with disclosure/discovery issues in litigation, and the process of answering a disclosure request seems to be quite similar to the process of answering an RTI request. Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time consuming) to answer. I'm sure lots of bureaucrats are abusing the weakness of RTI enforcement provisions, but it just isn't that easy to do in many cases. Badri
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
(hidden connections ala Seinfeld) YES YES YES!! That's what's so brilliant -- how 3 or more seemingly indepent plot lines end up dovetailing multiplicatively. You have made my day :-) I wish my DVDs weren't on the other side of the world at the moment. I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish! And I'm Dick Darlington!
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Ravi Bellur wrote: I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish! No, I am Giselle. No, I am Giselle! And then the island Lesbos! :-)
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
hah, the case would take years to be heard, another few years to get a judgement, and so on... take the Mumbai 26/11 terrorism case where despite the evidence, Kasab's lawyer is trying to pass him off as a juvenile, Who is to blame for the frivolousness being indulged in, while a terrorist enjoys state hospitality at the tax-payers expense. What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she can and should put forward any argument she can to save him. As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. I suggest you take a pitchfork and stand outside his jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last shreds of the rule of law in India. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time consuming) to answer. If it is hard and time consuming, does it mean that we (or our elected representatives) agreed to implement an act without actually thinking through the ramifications? Sounds very familiar though.
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote: Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware of the hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the Upanishads that the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other early Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of Indian civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the Beats were closer to the mark.) http://www.indiadivine.org/articles/236/1/Bhavishya-Purana-The-Prediction-of-Jesus-Christ/Page1.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana Smoking anything in Indian summers is harakiri to health. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she can and should put forward any argument she can to save him. While a lawyer should defend their client(s), perjury is not exactly the best way to wiggle out of a sticky case. That India does not hand out harsher punishments like (say) the US courts does not make it a line of defence either. As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. Then dont !! -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time consuming) to answer. If it is hard and time consuming, does it mean that we (or our elected representatives) agreed to implement an act without actually thinking through the ramifications? Sounds very familiar though. I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool.. Badri
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: Ravi Bellur wrote: I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish! No, I am Giselle. No, I am Giselle! And then the island Lesbos! :-) There are so many brilliant episodes and scenes. But I think beep beep inferno is my favourite especially the scene where Steve tries to explain the plot at the table :) -- Vinayak
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
. wrote, [on 4/29/2009 9:25 PM]: What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she can and should put forward any argument she can to save him. While a lawyer should defend their client(s), perjury is not exactly the best way to wiggle out of a sticky case. Perhaps you missed the second parenthetical bit that Badri wrote above? As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. Then dont !! Can you expand on what you meant by this effusion? I'm curious. Udhay -- ((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:25 PM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't know where to begin. Then dont !! A rope and the nearest tree! Due process be damned! -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues But you are sure that it is hard and time consuming? are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time They are the same chaps who also fund other government projects, they should know, yes? consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool.. Valuable at what cost? If I am paying tax to fund frivolous RTI requests, or fine for not providing that information, I am ok with going back to the time before RTI. As a citizen, I don't see any direct impact on my life. I read about it in the news, that sums up what it does for me. Venkat
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last As opposed to the people from whom we are protecting him by assiging extremely tight security? shreds of the rule of law in India. These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11, one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest democracy according to everybody. -Venkat
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
There are so many brilliant episodes and scenes. But I think beep beep inferno is my favourite especially the scene where Steve tries to explain the plot at the table :) -- Vinayak Ah, Lesbian Spank Inferno. Good one. But my favorite has to be the one with the Israeli girl seen twice, each time from the perspective of only understanding one of the languages (don't watch with Hebrew speakers or it'll ruin it -- I have no idea what language Jeff speaks in the second perspective part). The Girl with Two Breasts I think is the name of the episode. Shadaym!!
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues But you are sure that it is hard and time consuming? Oh yes. The discovery process in litigation basically involves each party in the case sending requests like RTI requests to each other for information/documentation and I know just how painful it is to find and collate responses to requests like that. I don't know exactly how RTI is structured in India - I think requests go to a specific officer in the relevant department in charge of RTI and then he has to get the requested information out of the relevant people in the dept. I also have a lot of experience trying to get information out of my clients and it is just not that easy. are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time They are the same chaps who also fund other government projects, they should know, yes? They probably *know*. I suspect they're just not keen on funding something that can be used to shine a light on their activities. consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool.. Valuable at what cost? If I am paying tax to fund frivolous RTI requests, or fine for not providing that information, I am ok with going back to the time before RTI. As a citizen, I don't see any direct impact on my life. I read about it in the news, that sums up what it does for me. It's a fair question about whether the cost/benefit is worth it. I have read articles (no cite handy) about the impact of RTI, how it is empowering villagers, etc, etc, so I think even in the watered down version that was passed, it is having a positive impact. Personally, unless the scale of frivolity is shown to be enormous, I think the cost-benefit is worth it in a place like India where it is very difficult to get information out of the government or hold it accountable. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote: These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11, one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest democracy according to everybody. A democracy depends on a functioning rule of law. A summary judgment without due process is in direct conflict with that request. Innocent until proven guilty is a fundamental maxim of that and is agnostic to the nature of the crime or the person committing it. It is open to people to vote for a party that would proceed otherwise - but then there's no guarantee that a citizen will then have the protection of due process. -- Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Ravi Bellur wrote: it'll ruin it -- I have no idea what language Jeff speaks in the second perspective part). The Girl with Two Breasts I think is the name of the episode. Shadaym!! Shdaym it is... Awesome episode. Have to watch it tonight before I sleep. :-)
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last As opposed to the people from whom we are protecting him by assiging extremely tight security? I genuinely don't understand what you mean by this bit. shreds of the rule of law in India. These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11, one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest democracy according to everybody. I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here either, but self-evidently, we're holding him in prison and giving him a trial because that is what the law requires (and it is the right thing to do). The purpose of a trial isn't to gather intelligence (I'm guessing that's happened already, subject to the limitations you pointed out). It's not an optional exercise to prove anything to anyone. It shows that however flawed it is, we still have *some* semblance of the rule of law in India. Badri
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
Ravi Bellur wrote: perspective part). The Girl with Two Breasts I think is the name of the episode. Shadaym!! If women knew what went on here [pointing at his head], they would kill us on the spot. Men are not people. We are disgustoids in human form Jeff in coupling, above episode.
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
Badri Natarajan wrote: I genuinely don't understand what you mean by this bit. Apparently, there are people trying to kill him. And not just Indian extremists.
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: Perhaps you missed the second parenthetical bit that Badri wrote above? No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can atleast tell us how you developed this impression...? Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Er...you *are* aware that the definition of perjury hinges on know and not suspect, yes? Do you mean the defence lawyer does not know his client had confessed (and revealed his age in an earlier hearing) and later retracted the same. I'm not aware of his case details but does getting a new lawyer mean an earlier confession is invalid? Yes, but what did *you* _mean_ by that? by what ? then dont ? ... that contextual trolling is bait avoided. Udhay, ignoring the temptation to riff on suggestive contextomy now i'm curious. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can ad hominem? have you ever interacted with the indian legal system before asking this question. i have and choose not to provide evidence un-related to the discussion (Kasab's case) at hand. -- .
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Er...you *are* aware that the definition of perjury hinges on know and not suspect, yes? Do you mean the defence lawyer does not know his client had confessed (and revealed his age in an earlier hearing) and later retracted the same. I'm not aware of his case details but does getting a new lawyer mean an earlier confession is invalid? No, an earlier confession isn't automatically invalid. And certainly you can assume that the defence lawyer knows what Kasab's confession said. The issue will turn on the details (of which we are unaware). If, for example, Kasab told his lawyer that he had been coerced to say he was an adult, when in fact he was not (I don't know what Kasab told his lawyer - this is an example), then it would be perfectly appropriate for the lawyer to say that he was a juvenile. If Kasab told his lawyer that his confession was correct and he was an adult, then of course the lawyer is not allowed to say to the court that he's a juvenile (and if he did it would be a serious breach of professional ethics). But we don't actually know what went on between them. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who indulge in perjury is the disturbing part. Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can ad hominem? have you ever interacted with the indian legal system before asking this question. i have and choose not to provide evidence un-related to the discussion (Kasab's case) at hand. How is my question ad hominem? You made an unsupported assertion and I asked if you had any evidence to support it, because it doesn't jibe with my experience. Not because I think Indian courts are better than American courts - on average American courts are certainly better. But because perjury by its nature is a very serious charge, with a very high standard of proof, and for that reason , you almost never see successful perjury prosecutions in India OR the US (or England for that matter). As a result, it is very difficult to make statements like yours - there simply isn't enough data (and indeed, it is virtually impossible to gather the data - how will you find out - in any legal system - how many people lied under oath but were *not* prosecuted?). It is your choice whether or not to provide evidence to support your assertion. No doubt you know your assertion lacks credibility if you can't support it. As for me, I am an Advocate and I have practised law in India, California (briefly) and now England, so yes, you could say that I have interacted with the Indian legal system. Badri
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 23:44, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote: If his earlier confession[0] isn't invalid how is this not perjury? I'm curious. [0] http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=enart=15109 Swati Sathe, Jail superintendent said when he was admitted to the prison, Kasab gave his age as 21 and his date of birth as September 13, 1987. A second witness confirmed this: Venkat Ramamurthy, a resident doctor in a government hospital, testified that when the injured Kasab was brought there at 1 a.m. on November 27, 2008, he said his age was 21. The difference between know and suspect would be this: a) the lawyer has in his possession some documents proving Kasab's age, but still goes ahead and claims that Kasab is a juvenile. b) the lawyer has been informed through prosecution documents that Kasab has told the jail superintendent and a government hospital doctor that he is 21. Kasab looks as though he is above eighteen. Kasab's instructions to this lawyer are to claim he is a juvenile. He goes ahead and claims Kasab is a juvenile. The lawyer would be in dereliction of his duty in the second case, imho, if he decided to play judge and disregard his client's claim of being a juvenile, and refuse to present it to court. It is a defence lawyer's duty to defend a person, even if he or she believes that person to be guilty. Also of interest might be s.126 of the Indian Evidence Act, regarding attorney-client confidentiality: http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/indianevidenceact/CHAPTER9/S126.html snip Illustrations: (a) A, a client, says to B, an attorney - I have committed forgery and I wish you to defend me. As the defense of a man known to be guilty is not a criminal purpose, _this communication is protected from disclosure_. (b) A, a client, says to B, and attorney - I wish to obtain possession of property by the use of forged deed on which I request you to sue. The communication being made in furtherance of criminal purpose, is not protected from disclosure. (c) A, being charged with embezzlement retains B, an attorney to defend him, In the course of the proceedings B observes that an entry has been made in A's account book, charging A with the sum said to have been embezzled, which entry was not in the book at the commencement of his employment. This being a fact observed by B in the course of his employment showing that a fraud has been committed since the commencement of the proceedings, it is not protected from disclosure. /snip
Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote: How is my question ad hominem? You made an unsupported assertion and I Unsupported assertion? In the 26/11 case? I never said Kasab should not get a lawyer or get a fair trial or that perjury was committed in the 26/11 case. Before quoting me out of context can you explain how you concluded or assumed that my statement on perjury was referring to the 26/11 case in particular? I know you didn't. The unsupported assertion was the statement about how it is easier to perjure yourself in Indian courts/Indian courts are more lenient on perjury, or something along those lines. asked if you had any evidence to support it, because it doesn't jibe with my experience. Not because I think Indian courts are better than American One, everyone does not have the same experiences and as a lawyer if you have not experienced it in an Indian court, your client is lucky. Two, why should i cite un-related personal cases on an archived list? The Indian court system is far from perfect - my point is that it is not possible to make the kind of generalization you did about perjury in India vs. the US. You don't have to discuss anything personal to you - as I said, that is your choice. But it is a fact that if you make an assertion based on personal experience, and then refuse to discuss the personal experience, then your assertion loses credibility - however justified it is for you not to discuss your personal cases. Badri
Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com wrote: One friend felt the Mahabharat to be highly casteist - the prejudice is openly displayed Well, to be honest, essentially all of the world's key religious texts are primitive, based in a tribal world-view; they encourage violence, sexual oppression, and all sorts of behavior that a modern reasonably civilized person would consider unacceptable. -T
