Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Madhu Menon

Kiran Jonnalagadda wrote:

2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com


5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can
cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke.



Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up quickly.


As somebody who had to shell out Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes just to get a 
trade licence for his restaurant, trust me that Rs. 5 per day, even per 
application, is peanuts. Now imagine the bribe amount multiplied by the 
number of licences issued.




--
   *   
Madhu Menon
Shiok Far-eastern Cuisine   |   Moss Cocktail Lounge
96, Amar Jyoti Layout, Inner Ring Road, Bangalore
@ http://shiokfood.comhttp://mosslounge.com
Join the Moss group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39295417270



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Zainab Bawa
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Venkat Mangudi's Silk Account 
s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote:

 Agreed, it is Rs 5/day/application. If it was 10x it might make a
 small difference.  Rs 5 ia too paltry a sum for them to scare them to
 action. They probably earn 1000x as cutbacks. Sorry, but my opinion is
 not very high.


I think the fine amount is somewhat higher than this. I am saying this
because it was originally conceived to be a deterrent. In fact, when my
former colleagues and I threatened a municipal clerk in Bombay on taking her
to the appellate authority and having her fined, she was really scared. I
will check and find out what is the precise fine amount. I also think the
amount increases after a certain period, but am not entirely sure ...




 I also hear Zainab's statement a bout frivolous pleas and such. But
 the act is a law and everyone has to abide by it or amend it.


That is the most interesting thing about laws. They have fantastic
unintended consequences, as do regulations. This does not mean that I am
advocating people don't use RTI. It is interesting to note what happens when
people begin to use the law rather excessively and frivolously. Hirschmann
talks about situations like these in Exit, Voice and Loyalty and provides
interesting analyses.




 On 4/29/09, Kiran Jonnalagadda j...@pobox.com wrote:
  2009/4/28 Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com
 
  5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can
  cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a
 joke.
 
 
  Venkat, that is Rs 5 per day per pending application. It piles up
 quickly.
 

 --
 Sent from my mobile device




-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Zainab Bawa

 As somebody who had to shell out Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes just to get a
 trade licence for his restaurant, trust me that Rs. 5 per day, even per
 application, is peanuts. Now imagine the bribe amount multiplied by the
 number of licences issued.

 How many such licenses do get issued any way, let's say per month? Would be
interesting to find out. And who levies the bribe? Is it municipal
government departments or state government departments or both?






 --
*   
 Madhu Menon
 Shiok Far-eastern Cuisine   |   Moss Cocktail Lounge
 96, Amar Jyoti Layout, Inner Ring Road, Bangalore
 @ http://shiokfood.comhttp://mosslounge.com
 Join the Moss group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=39295417270




-- 
Zainab Bawa
Ph.D. Student and Independent Researcher

Between Places ...
http://zainab.freecrow.org


Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan
2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com

 Ok, fairly interesting book.


Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly
strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as
the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism
studies.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1

This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she
should be read with a pinch of salt -

[University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a
dishonest book that justifies war.]

I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived
at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her
either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want
to check out the talk section for it too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger

But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm
poor too :)

Kiran


Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Pranesh Prakash
On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 17:27 +0530, Kiran K Karthikeyan wrote:
 Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly
 strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. 

She seems inclined to use Freud, yes.

 But as
 the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism
 studies.
 
 http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
 
 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she
 should be read with a pinch of salt -
 
 [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
 Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a
 dishonest book that justifies war.]
 

You can add
http://ramesh-n-rao.sulekha.com/blog/post/2000/12/pursuing-the-gita.htm to 
you collection of anti-Doniger screeds.  Bagger Vance and R. Junuh indeed!  

Searching through the Philadelphia Inquirer's archives (from 1981 to
present) failed to yield that infamous November 19, 2000 quote by
Doniger about the Gita being a dishonest book and not as nice a book
as Americans think.  I don't think many would disagree that it
proclaims just wars to be justified.




Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Bharat Shetty
Ah Kiran,

I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well
criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to
be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with
Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of
argument stand out.

Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out
non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.

So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-)

-- Bharat

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote:
 2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com

 Ok, fairly interesting book.


 Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a fairly
 strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But as
 the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US Hinduism
 studies.

 http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1

 This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that she
 should be read with a pinch of salt -

 [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
 Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a
 dishonest book that justifies war.]

 I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
 versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she arrived
 at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her
 either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might want
 to check out the talk section for it too.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger

 But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know. I'm
 poor too :)

 Kiran




Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Radhika, Y.
I am just wondering whether these reviewers would consider Michaevelli's The
Prince as an honest book while the Gita is dishonest? Just because one
provides no apologia while the other seems to qualify it's message based on
the position in society? One friend felt the Mahabharat to be highly
casteist - the prejudice is openly displayed visavis Karna for example as
the adopted son of a charioteer. I agree. Of course this person was Greek
and did not seem to think the Odyssey has a fair amount of fatalism.

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:05 AM, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.comwrote:

 Ah Kiran,

 I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both generally well
 criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and proved to
 be hollow before and these are the types of writers who along with
 Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their side of
 argument stand out.

 Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly filter out
 non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.

 So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the reading fun :-)

 -- Bharat

 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
 kiran.karthike...@gmail.com wrote:
  2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
 
  Ok, fairly interesting book.
 
 
  Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship disputed and has a
 fairly
  strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of Hindu texts. But
 as
  the article below points out, this malaise has spread throughout US
 Hinduism
  studies.
 
 
 http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
 
  This particular excerpt from the article was enough to convince me that
 she
  should be read with a pinch of salt -
 
  [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has been quoted in the
  Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred Hindu text, a
  dishonest book that justifies war.]
 
  I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
  versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm confused on how she
 arrived
  at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't speak too highly of her
  either (though it is disputed), so you if you are reading it, you might
 want
  to check out the talk section for it too.
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
 
  But if you do manage to find a lower priced India copy, do let me know.
 I'm
  poor too :)
 
  Kiran
 




Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Bonobashi



--- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An  
 Alternate History')
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM
 Ah Kiran,
 
 I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both
 generally well
 criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and
 proved to
 be hollow before and these are the types of writers who
 along with
 Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their
 side of
 argument stand out.


As opposed to the other type of writer who try to write carelessly 'as to make 
their side of argument' stand in?



 
 Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly
 filter out
 non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.



What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all on the Hindu Mahasabha in 
this base, rotten scoundrel's books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn his 
book? Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy?


 
 So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the
 reading fun :-)


Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended to in suitably earnest 
mood, with some tissues at one's side. What fun?


 -- Bharat
 
 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
 kiran.karthike...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
 
  Ok, fairly interesting book.
 
 
  Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship
 disputed and has a fairly
  strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of
 Hindu texts. But as
  the article below points out, this malaise has spread
 throughout US Hinduism
  studies.
 
  http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
 
  This particular excerpt from the article was enough to
 convince me that she
  should be read with a pinch of salt -
 
  [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has
 been quoted in the
  Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a
 sacred Hindu text, a
  dishonest book that justifies war.]
 
  I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
  versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm
 confused on how she arrived
  at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't
 speak too highly of her
  either (though it is disputed), so you if you are
 reading it, you might want
  to check out the talk section for it too.
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
 
  But if you do manage to find a lower priced India
 copy, do let me know. I'm
  poor too :)
 
  Kiran
 
 
 


  Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to 
http://in.movies.yahoo.com/



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Bharat Shetty
Ok,

You make me sound like I'm actually on a side. I will rephrase my
sentence, if that makes you happy.

I will take back that I'm going to read that book for fun statement.
Instead, honestly I want to know the other alternative view point and
I'm a person who reads and want to know all view points.

Guha's books are more of selected facts based on selected research and
most of them are accurate and valid. But still I still stand to my
view that he carefully writes the way he wants. Anyone who reads his
book can make that out. Did I say there was no Hindu Mahasabha and
they were an organization without flaws ?

You are only bringing that here. And as for your points on why they
wont burn his books, Guha hardly writes any stuffs that are viewed
sensitively like Arun Shourie who wrote a book on Ambedkar and was
dragged into streets and abused physically and that book was
subsequently banned.

You seem to forget that Hindu Mahasabha got chided out for protesting
against partition, which itself is root of many communal problems
plaguing out country these days.

-- Bharat

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in wrote:



 --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An  
 Alternate History')
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM
 Ah Kiran,

 I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are both
 generally well
 criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been criticized and
 proved to
 be hollow before and these are the types of writers who
 along with
 Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make their
 side of
 argument stand out.


 As opposed to the other type of writer who try to write carelessly 'as to 
 make their side of argument' stand in?




 Ramachandra guha is another example. He would cleverly
 filter out
 non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.



 What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all on the Hindu Mahasabha 
 in this base, rotten scoundrel's books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn 
 his book? Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy?



 So I would pick a low priced copy of this book just for the
 reading fun :-)


 Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended to in suitably earnest 
 mood, with some tissues at one's side. What fun?


 -- Bharat

 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K Karthikeyan
 kiran.karthike...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
 
  Ok, fairly interesting book.
 
 
  Looks like Doniger is somebody whose scholarship
 disputed and has a fairly
  strong inclination to favor a sexual interpretation of
 Hindu texts. But as
  the article below points out, this malaise has spread
 throughout US Hinduism
  studies.
 
  http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
 
  This particular excerpt from the article was enough to
 convince me that she
  should be read with a pinch of salt -
 
  [University of Chicago professor Wendy Doniger has
 been quoted in the
  Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad Gita, a
 sacred Hindu text, a
  dishonest book that justifies war.]
 
  I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read 4
  versions/translations/interpretations, and I'm
 confused on how she arrived
  at this conclusion. The wikipedia article doesn't
 speak too highly of her
  either (though it is disputed), so you if you are
 reading it, you might want
  to check out the talk section for it too.
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
 
  But if you do manage to find a lower priced India
 copy, do let me know. I'm
  poor too :)
 
  Kiran
 




      Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers and more! Go to 
 http://in.movies.yahoo.com/





Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Bonobashi

For Chris' sakes.

That was intended to be funny. Give me a break, do.

I never comment on religion or respond to the religious, of whatever 
confession. If ever I do, it is safe to assume that it is an attempt at humour. 
In this case, a terribly misplaced attempt.

--- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com wrote:

 From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An  
 Alternate History')
 To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
 Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 7:39 PM
 Ok,
 
 You make me sound like I'm actually on a side. I will
 rephrase my
 sentence, if that makes you happy.
 
 I will take back that I'm going to read that book for fun
 statement.
 Instead, honestly I want to know the other alternative view
 point and
 I'm a person who reads and want to know all view points.
 
 Guha's books are more of selected facts based on selected
 research and
 most of them are accurate and valid. But still I still
 stand to my
 view that he carefully writes the way he wants. Anyone who
 reads his
 book can make that out. Did I say there was no Hindu
 Mahasabha and
 they were an organization without flaws ?
 
 You are only bringing that here. And as for your points on
 why they
 wont burn his books, Guha hardly writes any stuffs that are
 viewed
 sensitively like Arun Shourie who wrote a book on Ambedkar
 and was
 dragged into streets and abused physically and that book
 was
 subsequently banned.
 
 You seem to forget that Hindu Mahasabha got chided out for
 protesting
 against partition, which itself is root of many communal
 problems
 plaguing out country these days.
 
 -- Bharat
 
 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:56 AM, Bonobashi bonoba...@yahoo.co.in
 wrote:
 
 
 
  --- On Wed, 29/4/09, Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  From: Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
  Subject: Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book
 Review of 'The Hindus, An  Alternate History')
  To: silklist@lists.hserus.net
  Date: Wednesday, 29 April, 2009, 6:35 PM
  Ah Kiran,
 
  I knew before that Doniger and Pankaj Mishra are
 both
  generally well
  criticized writers. Mishra's posts have been
 criticized and
  proved to
  be hollow before and these are the types of
 writers who
  along with
  Martha Nausbaum try to write carefully as to make
 their
  side of
  argument stand out.
 
 
  As opposed to the other type of writer who try to
 write carelessly 'as to make their side of argument' stand
 in?
 
 
 
 
  Ramachandra guha is another example. He would
 cleverly
  filter out
  non-Nehru and non-congress stuffs from his books.
 
 
 
  What an abomination! You mean there's nothing at all
 on the Hindu Mahasabha in this base, rotten scoundrel's
 books? Why don't they ban him, and then burn his book?
 Preferably while he's holding its only printed copy?
 
 
 
  So I would pick a low priced copy of this book
 just for the
  reading fun :-)
 
 
  Reading fun? Reading is serious stuff, to be attended
 to in suitably earnest mood, with some tissues at one's
 side. What fun?
 
 
  -- Bharat
 
  On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 7:57 AM, Kiran K
 Karthikeyan
  kiran.karthike...@gmail.com
  wrote:
   2009/4/29 Bharat Shetty bharat.she...@gmail.com
  
   Ok, fairly interesting book.
  
  
   Looks like Doniger is somebody whose
 scholarship
  disputed and has a fairly
   strong inclination to favor a sexual
 interpretation of
  Hindu texts. But as
   the article below points out, this malaise
 has spread
  throughout US Hinduism
   studies.
  
   http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Hinduism/2004/06/U-S-Hinduism-Studies-A-Question-Of-Shoddy-Scholarship.aspx?p=1
  
   This particular excerpt from the article was
 enough to
  convince me that she
   should be read with a pinch of salt -
  
   [University of Chicago professor Wendy
 Doniger has
  been quoted in the
   Philadelphia Inquirer calling the Bhagavad
 Gita, a
  sacred Hindu text, a
   dishonest book that justifies war.]
  
   I'm no scholar of the Gita, but I have read
 4
   versions/translations/interpretations, and
 I'm
  confused on how she arrived
   at this conclusion. The wikipedia article
 doesn't
  speak too highly of her
   either (though it is disputed), so you if you
 are
  reading it, you might want
   to check out the talk section for it too.
  
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendy_Doniger
  
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wendy_Doniger
  
   But if you do manage to find a lower priced
 India
  copy, do let me know. I'm
   poor too :)
  
   Kiran
  
 
 
 
 
       Bollywood news, movie reviews, film trailers
 and more! Go to http://in.movies.yahoo.com/
 
 
 
 


  Own a website.Get an unlimited package.Pay next to nothing.*Go to 
http://in.business.yahoo.com/



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Ravi Bellur



 Having said that, I wonder if there is any service that allows people
 at USA order books from Indian stores with delivery to the US listed
 addresses ?


The books I get here are WAY cheaper than the US, but they almost all
say For sale only in India, Pakistan, Bangalesh, Sri Lanka, etc. Just like
region codes for DVDs, it's a scheme to base prices on the cost of living.
Fair enough, that's business.


Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Kiran K Karthikeyan

 Searching through the Philadelphia Inquirer's archives (from 1981 to
 present) failed to yield that infamous November 19, 2000 quote by
 Doniger about the Gita being a dishonest book and not as nice a book
 as Americans think.


Yes. I tried the same and couldn't, but even if you do, you have to pay
$2.95 to access the article. But searching for it yields too many results
for it to be a case of misquoting. Also, among the search results, I don't
see any which mention she was misquoted. If you do, please let me know.


 I don't think many would disagree that it
 proclaims just wars to be justified.


The reasoning is little more complicated than that, but if you want to sum
up the philosophy in a few words by interpreting it only in the context in
which the sermon was delivered, then yes, I suppose you could arrive at that
conclusion.

Kiran


Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Ravi Bellur


 Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day
 celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with
 devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no
 dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home.


Brits were kinda uptight back then. See The Family Guy for the scene where
they depict British Porn (probably on You Tube). Hilarious.



 Recoiling
 from Hindu India, Forster was relieved to enter the relatively
 rational world of Islam. Describing the muezzin’s call at the Taj
 Mahal, he wrote, “I knew at all events where I stood and what I heard;
 it was a land that was not merely atmosphere but had definite outlines
 and horizons.”


Yeah, as an infidel. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel) -- welcome to
Monotheism: there can be only one



 The British Army captain who discovered the erotic temples
 of Khajuraho in the early 19th century was outraged by how “extremely
 indecent and offensive” depictions of fornicating couples profaned a
 “place of worship.” Lord Macaulay thundered against the worship, still
 widespread in India today, of the Shiva lingam. Even Karl Marx
 inveighed against how man, “the sovereign of nature,” had degraded
 himself in India by worshipping Hanuman, the monkey god.

Fornication rules. Watch the Animal Channel -- under our civilian vaneer we
are so much like our primate cousins that it's chilling.



 Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of
 India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete
 with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit
 philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In
 fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language
 exclusive to Brahmins.


My ancestors were Brahmins -- both landlords and civil servants in recent
history. When I hear how they treated non-Brahmins, it makes me furious.
Egalitarianism isn't beneficient, it's protecting ones own freedom.



 And they found keen
 collaborators among upper-caste Indian scholars and translators. This
 British-Brahmin version of Hinduism — one of the many invented
 traditions born around the world in the 18th and 19th centuries


Everybody wants to rule the world. That should be the qualifiing test to
make sure that you're never allowed to.



 These mostly
 upper-caste and middle-class nationalists have accelerated the
 modernization and homogenization of “Hinduism.”


And in the US, rich people brandish Christianity while mocking Obama for
saying We all do better when we share the wealth a little bit. What kind
of pinko commie would say that (Why... their own Jesus Christ). People with
money and power use whatever powers they can to hold their own positions and
enfranchise their children  to it.




  Far from being a slave to mindless
 superstition, popular religious legend conveys a darkly ambiguous view
 of human action. Revered as heroes in one region, the characters of
 the great epics “Ramayana” and “Mahabharata” can be regarded as
 villains in another. Demons and gods are dialectically interrelated in
 a complex cosmic order that would make little sense to the theologians
 of the so-called war on terror.


Polemic thought makes everything easier. It makes hate and love so much more
passionate. Nevermind that it mirrors almost nothing in the natural world.
Brain hurt me think too hard, ugh.



  As she puts it, “It’s not all about Brahmins, Sanskrit, the
 Gita.” It’s also not about perfidious Muslims who destroyed
 innumerable Hindu temples and forcibly converted millions of Indians
 to Islam.


It makes perfect sense to me that people disenfranchised by Hinduism would
willingly convert. Shovel your own nightsoil, Brahmins. BTW, Christianity
permeanted the Roman Empire in the same way -- blessed are the poor? One
life and then heaven? Where do I sign up?!? Can't blame 'em. I'd have done
the same.



 Happily, it will also serve as a salutary antidote to the fanatics who
 perceive — correctly — the fluid existential identities and commodious
 metaphysic of practiced Indian religions as a threat to their project
 of a culturally homogenous and militant nation-state.


I think they'd find any pretext for this. I'm somewhat surprised how violent
the empahtically indenfied Hindus are here.

Lets do some empericism.

Traits of the most economically successful countries with the highest
average level quality of life:
1) Not very religious
2) Highly egalitarian
3) Polite drivers who follow the rules
4) Low corruption
5) Alcohol consumption
6) High degree of women's rights, and promiscuity
7) Low or no abject poverty
8) Low violence and crime

(I'm not talking about the US on this -- mainly western Europe)

I dunno what it is but the countries that treat women like second class
citizens, are incredibly concerned about everyone elses sex life (and
limiting it), drive like thoughless maniacs (e.g. don't give a crap about
anyone but themselves, 

Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Vinayak Hegde
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:22 PM, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote:
 Visiting India in 1921, E. M. Forster witnessed the eight-day
 celebration of Lord Krishna’s birthday. This first encounter with
 devotional ecstasy left the Bloomsbury aesthete baffled. “There is no
 dignity, no taste, no form,” he complained in a letter home.

 Brits were kinda uptight back then. See The Family Guy for the scene where
 they depict British Porn (probably on You Tube). Hilarious.

I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
remake by NBC which was pretty lame)

-- Vinayak
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Ravi Bellur




 I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
 remake by NBC which was pretty lame)

 -- Vinayak
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)


You could not be more right. I loved the UK Coupling, own every episode.
Jeff Murdoch is a prophet! :-)


Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread .
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 5:09 PM, Zainab Bawa bawazaina...@gmail.com wrote:

[snip]
 circumstances. Also, lower level officers tend to get fined more often than
 the higher level bureaucrats and this could mean a lot not only in monetary
 terms, but also bringing them under the ire and fire of seniors,

Wasnt the Act supposed to introduce transparency in the first place?
So it would be interesting to see the fines shared across the
hierarchy. Not sure if it will change the bureaucratic attitude
though.


 Albert O Hirschmann's work titled Exit, Voice and Loyalty is very
 interesting in regard to RTI. Hirschmann analyzes what happens when people
 have too many options to exercise their voice and when too many people
 decide to express their voice in particular circumstances. He tries to
 understand these patterns in the context of feedback cycles and how these
 cycles can get skewed in situations when one option is exercised excessively
 than the other.

Well, democracy is not always democratic and freedom does not mean
absolute freedom either *shrug*


 As in? What would be the examples. Just curious.

... and then there are cases where the acts could have been used to
harass another officer (or seniors), stop promotions, question X/Y/Z
action and raise straw-man arguments, allude and ...  you get the
point !!

Frivolous cases do reduce the positive impact an Act could bring about
and the officer (you cited) has a point about the right information
falling into wrong hands (think terrorists with local networks). Kinda
sad but not surprising.  Perhaps corruption and dirty politics is so
brazenly woven into the fabric of daily life that we have no choice
but accept and live with it. Is there no scope for change? :(


 Would be interesting to know which cases these are.

Yes indeed. Atleast Kejriwal was honest enough to admit that he had
not expected the misuse of the Act nor the delays within the system.


 was associated with in Mumbai tried to help a person to file an RTI with the
 metropolitan development authority to know how and where builders had used
 development rights in the city, we got a blatant response saying, Here are
 the contact details of the Appellate Authority. Go an lodge an appeal saying
 we are not giving you this information. !!!

hah, the case would take years to be heard, another few years to get a
judgement, and so on... take the Mumbai 26/11 terrorism case where
despite the evidence, Kasab's lawyer is trying to pass him off as a
juvenile,  Who is to blame for the frivolousness being indulged
in, while a terrorist enjoys state hospitality at the tax-payers
expense.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread .
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Deepa Mohan mohande...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com 
 wrote:
 . wrote:

 5 bucks per day? No wonder they don't care. I am fairly certain they can
 cover the fine and more with the kickbacks they earn. RTI fine is a joke.

Probably because even this (AK may have said 50 bucks a day. I dont
remember his exact words) paltry fine does not get implemented by the
Commission (staffed by Ex-bureaucrats, but ofcourse) which definitely
has the authority.

@Madhu : I'm told Rs. 1.75 Lakhs in bribes (a 2% cut??) would be the
going rate, mandatory in any Indian entrepreneur circle.


 Ah. Here, in a few sentences, we have an explanation of why social
 initiatives and voluntary activities don't work on a sustained basis
 in India. (And very few of us put it so honestly as Venkat has done.)

 Each of us is fighting our own battles on various fronts, to get ahead
 in our lives and careers. Every morning, I do not know if I will have
 electricity, water...whether the creaky infrastructure that keeps my
 life going will work, or at what points it will break down...and what
 sudden measures will have to be adopted to patch up and keep going.

Your words remind me of a recent movie on Bharathiar aired on TV (no
ad breaks, which speaks volumes but i digress) which introduced facets
of his life I had not known. It was sad to see his wife  reduced to
tears while struggling with abject poverty and not knowing how she
would feed her two daughters the next meal whilst her husband was
being feted for his iconic stand on womens rights. While he was busy
breaking tradition by hugging a donkey, it was his wife bearing the
brunt of societal ire. It was so ironic.  That is not to say that
women activists and reformers dont exist but maybe women are
differently wired. And there is truth in the saying charity begins at
home.


[snipped the good stuff you've been up to..]

 Well, there will, thankfully, be many people who have both the time,
 enthusiasm, and inclination to try and make changes...but don't judge
 the people who are not able to, or willing to, get into this.

 I wonder why I suddenly burst out like this...! Oh well, let it stand.

I grok what you mean. Your experience reminds me that change is hard
but bringing about positive change is harder, a lot harder than one
can imagine. Especially when you are the only one feeling victorious
(besides the harassment and umpteen trips to-n-fro) instead of taking
the (gr)easy way out.  The pressure is akin to climbing Everest sans
protective winter gear, i imagine.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Vinayak Hegde
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Ravi Bellur rav...@gmail.com wrote:
 I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
 remake by NBC which was pretty lame)

 -- Vinayak
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coupling_(UK_TV_series)

 You could not be more right. I loved the UK Coupling, own every episode.
 Jeff Murdoch is a prophet! :-)

Yay ! another coupling fan :) The wordplay, the double entendres
(hidden connections ala Seinfeld) interspersed all over the dialogue
makes it more fun to watch it with friends as they are sometimes
difficult to spot.

-- Vinayak



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Vinayak Hegde wrote:
 I would recommend Coupling[1] - the original UK version (not the US
 remake by NBC which was pretty lame)

I have four seasons of the show, if anyone is interested...

Venkat





Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan

 I also hear Zainab's statement a bout frivolous pleas and such. But
 the act is a law and everyone has to abide by it or amend it.


 That is the most interesting thing about laws. They have fantastic
 unintended consequences, as do regulations. This does not mean that I am
 advocating people don't use RTI. It is interesting to note what happens
 when
 people begin to use the law rather excessively and frivolously. Hirschmann

I don't have any experience with RTI requests, but a significant part of
my job involves dealing with disclosure/discovery issues in litigation,
and the process of answering a disclosure request seems to be quite
similar to the process of answering an RTI request.

Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the
simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time
consuming) to answer.

I'm sure lots of bureaucrats are abusing the weakness of RTI enforcement
provisions, but it just isn't that easy to do in many cases.

Badri



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Ravi Bellur

  (hidden connections ala Seinfeld)


YES YES YES!! That's what's so brilliant -- how 3 or more seemingly indepent
plot lines end up dovetailing multiplicatively. You have made my day :-) I
wish my DVDs weren't on the other side of the world at the moment.

I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish!

And I'm Dick Darlington!


Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Ravi Bellur wrote:
 
 I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish!

No, I am Giselle.

No, I am Giselle!

And then the island Lesbos! :-)




Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 hah, the case would take years to be heard, another few years to get a
 judgement, and so on... take the Mumbai 26/11 terrorism case where
 despite the evidence, Kasab's lawyer is trying to pass him off as a
 juvenile,  Who is to blame for the frivolousness being indulged
 in, while a terrorist enjoys state hospitality at the tax-payers
 expense.

What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of
his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to
stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to
put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be
untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she
can and should put forward any argument she can to save him.

As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't
know where to begin. I suggest you take a pitchfork and stand outside his
jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob
quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last
shreds of the rule of law in India.

Badri



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Badri Natarajan wrote:

 Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the
 simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time
 consuming) to answer.
 

If it is hard and time consuming, does it mean that we (or our elected
representatives) agreed to implement an act without actually thinking
through the ramifications? Sounds very familiar though.



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread .
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:11 AM, Thaths tha...@gmail.com wrote:

 Repelled by such pagan blasphemies, the first British scholars of
 India went so far as to invent what we now call “Hinduism,” complete
 with a mainstream classical tradition consisting entirely of Sanskrit
 philosophical texts like the Bhagavad-Gita and the Upanishads. In
 fact, most Indians in the 18th century knew no Sanskrit, the language
 exclusive to Brahmins. For centuries, they remained unaware of the
 hymns of the four Vedas or the idealist monism of the Upanishads that
 the German Romantics, American Transcendentalists and other early
 Indophiles solemnly supposed to be the very essence of Indian
 civilization. (Smoking chillums and chanting “Om,” the Beats were
 closer to the mark.)


http://www.indiadivine.org/articles/236/1/Bhavishya-Purana-The-Prediction-of-Jesus-Christ/Page1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavishya_Purana

Smoking anything in Indian summers is harakiri to health.
-- 
.



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread .
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:18 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote:

 What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of
 his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to
 stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to
 put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be
 untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she
 can and should put forward any argument she can to save him.

While a lawyer should defend their client(s), perjury is not exactly
the best way to wiggle out of a sticky case. That India does not hand
out harsher punishments like (say) the US courts does not make it a
line of defence either.


 As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't
 know where to begin.

Then dont !!

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 Badri Natarajan wrote:

 Take it from me that it is not easy and is a vast amount of work - the
 simplest and easiest sounding questions can be incredibly hard (and time
 consuming) to answer.


 If it is hard and time consuming, does it mean that we (or our elected
 representatives) agreed to implement an act without actually thinking
 through the ramifications? Sounds very familiar though.

I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues
are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so
much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time
consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool..

Badri



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Vinayak Hegde
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote:
 Ravi Bellur wrote:

 I'm am Giselle, the French bitch! Wa-kish!

 No, I am Giselle.

 No, I am Giselle!

 And then the island Lesbos! :-)

There are so many brilliant episodes and scenes. But I think beep
beep inferno is my favourite especially the scene where Steve tries
to explain the plot at the table :)

-- Vinayak



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Udhay Shankar N
. wrote, [on 4/29/2009 9:25 PM]:

 What's the problem? It's the lawyer's duty to defend him to the best of
 his/her ability (wasn't the woman who was initially appointed forced to
 stand down because of a conflict?) within the law. She isn't allowed to
 put forward arguments that she knows (note: knows, not suspects) to be
 untrue, but as long as there is any uncertainty at all about his age, she
 can and should put forward any argument she can to save him.
 
 While a lawyer should defend their client(s), perjury is not exactly
 the best way to wiggle out of a sticky case. 

Perhaps you missed the second parenthetical bit that Badri wrote above?

 As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't
 know where to begin.
 
 Then dont !!

Can you expand on what you meant by this effusion? I'm curious.

Udhay
-- 
((Udhay Shankar N)) ((udhay @ pobox.com)) ((www.digeratus.com))



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Gautam John
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:25 PM, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:

 As for terrorist enjoys state hospitality at taxpayer expense, I don't
 know where to begin.

 Then dont !!

A rope and the nearest tree! Due process be damned!


-- 
Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Badri Natarajan wrote:

 I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the issues

But you are sure that it is hard and time consuming?

 are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not so
 much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time

They are the same chaps who also fund other government projects, they
should know, yes?

 consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool..

Valuable at what cost? If I am paying tax to fund frivolous RTI
requests, or fine for not providing that information, I am ok with going
back to the time before RTI. As a citizen, I don't see any direct impact
on my life. I read about it in the news, that sums up what it does for me.

Venkat



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Badri Natarajan wrote:
 jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a mob
 quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last

As opposed to the people from whom we are protecting him by assiging
extremely tight security?

 shreds of the rule of law in India.

These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will
find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already
know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11,
one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not
saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are
we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The
world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest
democracy according to everybody.

-Venkat



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Ravi Bellur


 There are so many brilliant episodes and scenes. But I think beep
 beep inferno is my favourite especially the scene where Steve tries
 to explain the plot at the table :)

 -- Vinayak



Ah, Lesbian Spank Inferno. Good one. But my favorite has to be the one with
the Israeli girl seen twice, each time from the perspective of only
understanding one of the languages (don't watch with Hebrew speakers or
it'll ruin it -- I have no idea what language Jeff speaks in the second
perspective part). The Girl with Two Breasts I think is the name of the
episode. Shadaym!!


Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 Badri Natarajan wrote:

 I really don't know much about RTI in India, but I suspect that the
 issues

 But you are sure that it is hard and time consuming?

Oh yes. The discovery process in litigation basically involves each party
in the case sending requests like RTI requests to each other for
information/documentation and I know just how painful it is to find and
collate responses to requests like that. I don't know exactly how RTI is
structured in India - I think requests go to a specific officer in the
relevant department in charge of RTI and then he has to get the requested
information out of the relevant people in the dept. I also have a lot of
experience trying to get information out of my clients and it is just not
that easy.

 are more around lack of funding and resources on the government and not
 so
 much the provisions of the Act. I mean, just because it is hard and time

 They are the same chaps who also fund other government projects, they
 should know, yes?

They probably *know*. I suspect they're just not keen on funding something
that can be used to shine a light on their activities.


 consuming doesn't mean it isn't a valuable tool..

 Valuable at what cost? If I am paying tax to fund frivolous RTI
 requests, or fine for not providing that information, I am ok with going
 back to the time before RTI. As a citizen, I don't see any direct impact
 on my life. I read about it in the news, that sums up what it does for me.

It's a fair question about whether the cost/benefit is worth it. I have
read articles (no cite handy) about the impact of RTI, how it is
empowering villagers, etc, etc, so I think even in the watered down
version that was passed, it is having a positive impact. Personally,
unless the scale of frivolity is shown to be enormous, I think the
cost-benefit is worth it in a place like India where it is very difficult
to get information out of the government or hold it accountable.

Badri



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Gautam John
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:51 PM, Venkat Mangudi s...@venkatmangudi.com wrote:

 These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will
 find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already
 know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11,
 one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not
 saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are
 we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The
 world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest
 democracy according to everybody.

A democracy depends on a functioning rule of law. A summary judgment
without due process is in direct conflict with that request. Innocent
until proven guilty is a fundamental maxim of that and is agnostic to
the nature of the crime or the person committing it.

It is open to people to vote for a party that would proceed otherwise
- but then there's no guarantee that a citizen will then have the
protection of due process.


-- 
Please read our new blog at: http://blog.prathambooks.org



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Ravi Bellur wrote:
 it'll ruin it -- I have no idea what language Jeff speaks in the second
 perspective part). The Girl with Two Breasts I think is the name of the
 episode. Shadaym!!

Shdaym it is... Awesome episode. Have to watch it tonight before I
sleep. :-)



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 Badri Natarajan wrote:
 jail shouting slogans - you'll probably draw enough people to create a
 mob
 quite quickly and you can go in and take him out, along with the last

 As opposed to the people from whom we are protecting him by assiging
 extremely tight security?

I genuinely don't understand what you mean by this bit.


 shreds of the rule of law in India.

 These laws are going to find him guilty and hang him. Maybe they will
 find out some more about the terrorist network. But those chaps already
 know he is in jail and if they are as good as planning a 9/11 and 26/11,
 one can safely assume they will change the passwords. While I am not
 saying that we lynch this guy, what in the name of all things good, are
 we trying to achieve here? Prove to the world we are good guys? The
 world knows that. Prove we are a democracy? Again, we are the largest
 democracy according to everybody.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here either, but self-evidently,
we're holding him in prison and giving him a trial because that is what
the law requires (and it is the right thing to do). The purpose of a trial
isn't to gather intelligence (I'm guessing that's happened already,
subject to the limitations you pointed out). It's not an optional exercise
to prove anything to anyone. It shows that however flawed it is, we still
have *some* semblance of the rule of law in India.

Badri




Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Ravi Bellur wrote:
 perspective part). The Girl with Two Breasts I think is the name of the
 episode. Shadaym!!

If women knew what went on here [pointing at his head], they would kill
us on the spot. Men are not people. We are disgustoids in human form
Jeff in coupling, above episode.



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Venkat Mangudi
Badri Natarajan wrote:
 I genuinely don't understand what you mean by this bit.

Apparently, there are people trying to kill him. And not just Indian
extremists.





Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote:

 Perhaps you missed the second parenthetical bit that Badri wrote above?

 No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who
 indulge in perjury is the disturbing part.

Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can
atleast tell us how you developed this impression...?

Badri



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread .
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote:

 No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who
 indulge in perjury is the disturbing part.

 Er...you *are* aware that the definition of perjury hinges on know and
 not suspect, yes?

Do you mean the defence lawyer does not know his client had
confessed (and revealed his age in an earlier hearing) and later
retracted the same. I'm not aware of his case details but does getting
a new lawyer mean an earlier confession is invalid?


 Yes, but what did *you* _mean_ by that?

by what ? then dont ? ... that contextual trolling is bait avoided.

 Udhay, ignoring the temptation to riff on suggestive contextomy

now i'm curious.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread .
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote:

 No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who
 indulge in perjury is the disturbing part.

 Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can

ad hominem? have you ever interacted with the indian legal system
before asking this question. i have and choose not to provide evidence
un-related to the discussion (Kasab's case) at hand.

-- 
.



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:11 PM, Udhay Shankar N ud...@pobox.com wrote:

 No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who
 indulge in perjury is the disturbing part.

 Er...you *are* aware that the definition of perjury hinges on know and
 not suspect, yes?

 Do you mean the defence lawyer does not know his client had
 confessed (and revealed his age in an earlier hearing) and later
 retracted the same. I'm not aware of his case details but does getting
 a new lawyer mean an earlier confession is invalid?

No, an earlier confession isn't automatically invalid. And certainly you
can assume that the defence lawyer knows what Kasab's confession said. The
issue will turn on the details (of which we are unaware). If, for example,
Kasab told his lawyer that he had been coerced to say he was an adult,
when in fact he was not (I don't know what Kasab told his lawyer - this is
an example), then it would be perfectly appropriate for the lawyer to say
that he was a juvenile.

If Kasab told his lawyer that his confession was correct and he was an
adult, then of course the lawyer is not allowed to say to the court that
he's a juvenile (and if he did it would be a serious breach of
professional ethics).

But we don't actually know what went on between them.

Badri



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote:

 No, I didnt. That our courts are a lot more tolerant towards those who
 indulge in perjury is the disturbing part.

 Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Or if not, if you can

 ad hominem? have you ever interacted with the indian legal system
 before asking this question. i have and choose not to provide evidence
 un-related to the discussion (Kasab's case) at hand.


How is my question ad hominem? You made an unsupported assertion and I
asked if you had any evidence to support it, because it doesn't jibe with
my experience. Not because I think Indian courts are better than American
courts - on average American courts are certainly better. But because
perjury by its nature is a very serious charge, with a very high standard
of proof, and for that reason , you almost never see successful perjury
prosecutions in India OR the US (or England for that matter).

As a result, it is very difficult to make statements like yours - there
simply isn't enough data (and indeed, it is virtually impossible to gather
the data - how will you find out - in any legal system - how many people
lied under oath but were *not* prosecuted?).

It is your choice whether or not to provide evidence to support your
assertion. No doubt you know your assertion lacks credibility if you can't
support it.

As for me, I am an Advocate and I have practised law in India, California
(briefly) and now England, so yes, you could say that I have interacted
with the Indian legal system.

Badri



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Pranesh Prakash
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 23:44, . svaks...@gmail.com wrote:
 If his earlier confession[0] isn't invalid how is this not perjury? I'm 
 curious.

 [0] http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=enart=15109

 Swati Sathe, Jail superintendent said when he was admitted to the
 prison, Kasab gave his age as 21 and his date of birth as September
 13, 1987. A second witness confirmed this: Venkat Ramamurthy, a
 resident doctor in a government hospital, testified that when the
 injured Kasab was brought there at 1 a.m. on November 27, 2008, he
 said his age was 21.

The difference between know and suspect would be this:
a) the lawyer has in his possession some documents proving Kasab's
age, but still goes ahead and claims that Kasab is a juvenile.
b) the lawyer has been informed through prosecution documents that
Kasab has told the jail superintendent and a government hospital
doctor that he is 21.  Kasab looks as though he is above eighteen.
Kasab's instructions to this lawyer are to claim he is a juvenile.  He
goes ahead and claims Kasab is a juvenile.

The lawyer would be in dereliction of his duty in the second case,
imho, if he decided to play judge and disregard his client's claim of
being a juvenile, and refuse to present it to court.

It is a defence lawyer's duty to defend a person, even if he or she
believes that person to be guilty.

Also of interest might be s.126 of the Indian Evidence Act, regarding
attorney-client confidentiality:
http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/indianevidenceact/CHAPTER9/S126.html

snip
Illustrations:
(a) A, a client, says to B, an attorney - I have committed forgery
and I wish you to defend me.
As the defense of a man known to be guilty is not a criminal purpose,
_this communication is protected from disclosure_.

(b) A, a client, says to B, and attorney - I wish to obtain
possession of property by the use of forged deed on which I request
you to sue.
The communication being made in furtherance of criminal purpose, is
not protected from disclosure.

(c) A, being charged with embezzlement retains B, an attorney to
defend him, In the course of the proceedings B observes that an entry
has been made in A's account book, charging A with the sum said to
have been embezzled, which entry was not in the book at the
commencement of his employment.
This being a fact observed by B in the course of his employment
showing that a fraud has been committed since the commencement of the
proceedings, it is not protected from disclosure.
/snip



Re: [silk] Statistics on development taken by politicos

2009-04-29 Thread Badri Natarajan
 On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Badri Natarajan asi...@vsnl.com wrote:

 How is my question ad hominem? You made an unsupported assertion and I

 Unsupported assertion? In the 26/11 case? I never said Kasab should
 not get a lawyer or get a fair trial or that perjury was committed in
 the 26/11 case.  Before quoting me out of context can you explain how
 you concluded or assumed that my statement on perjury was referring to
 the 26/11 case in particular?

I know you didn't. The unsupported assertion was the statement about how
it is easier to perjure yourself in Indian courts/Indian courts are more
lenient on perjury, or something along those lines.


 asked if you had any evidence to support it, because it doesn't jibe
 with
 my experience. Not because I think Indian courts are better than
 American

 One, everyone does not have the same experiences and as a lawyer if
 you have not experienced it in an Indian court, your client is lucky.
 Two, why should i cite un-related personal cases on an archived list?

The Indian court system is far from perfect - my point is that it is not
possible to make the kind of generalization you did about perjury in India
vs. the US. You don't have to discuss anything personal to you - as I
said, that is your choice. But it is a fact that if you make an assertion
based on personal experience, and then refuse to discuss the personal
experience, then your assertion loses credibility - however justified it
is for you not to discuss your personal cases.

Badri



Re: [silk] Another Incarnation (Book Review of 'The Hindus, An Alternate History')

2009-04-29 Thread Tim Bray
On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 6:46 AM, Radhika, Y. radhik...@gmail.com wrote:
  One friend felt the Mahabharat to be highly
 casteist - the prejudice is openly displayed

Well, to be honest, essentially all of the world's key religious texts
are primitive, based in a tribal world-view; they encourage violence,
sexual oppression, and all sorts of behavior that a modern reasonably
civilized person would consider unacceptable.  -T