Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
Roger and/or other HV people. Could you do me one favor and run an arcing HV unit with non-contributing electrodes (carbon?) and see if you still get low pH? That would help isolate the source of the anomaly! I would think the HV arc is breaking down the air/water to get the effect and silver has nothing to do with it! f...@health2us.com -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
In a message dated 00-04-25 23:32:38 EDT, you write: Roger and/or other HV people. Could you do me one favor and run an arcing HV unit with non-contributing electrodes (carbon?) and see if you still get low pH? That would help isolate the source of the anomaly! I would think the HV arc is breaking down the air/water to get the effect and silver has nothing to do with it! f...@health2us.com Thanks Fred. Good idea. If silver has nothing to do with it then please give us a mechanism to explain how a low pH can occur with carbon electrodes. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
I would expect a low ph using arcing and carbon electrodes. Cabon plus oxygen gives carbon dioxide, which easily dissolves in water and produces carbonic acid. Marshall rogalt...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 00-04-25 23:32:38 EDT, you write: Roger and/or other HV people. Could you do me one favor and run an arcing HV unit with non-contributing electrodes (carbon?) and see if you still get low pH? That would help isolate the source of the anomaly! I would think the HV arc is breaking down the air/water to get the effect and silver has nothing to do with it! f...@health2us.com Thanks Fred. Good idea. If silver has nothing to do with it then please give us a mechanism to explain how a low pH can occur with carbon electrodes. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
In a message dated 00-04-26 10:09:39 EDT, you write: I would expect a low ph using arcing and carbon electrodes. Cabon plus oxygen gives carbon dioxide, which easily dissolves in water and produces carbonic acid. Marshall Marshall: I wrote the following to Ivan earlier. Perhaps you didn't see it. The pH measurments for my HVAC CS sample were obtained from 3 separate and independent sources. In addition, I checked the silver-list archives and found that the HVAC CS acidic pH phenomenon has been talked about repeatedly. As far as CO2 is concerned, there is NO WAY that the presence of carbonic acid could account for the low pH. For example, the CO2 typically dissolved in rainwater could be said to be in equilibrium with the ~380 ppm of CO2 in air. If you calculate the pH from this assumption you would arrive at a pH of 5.6 - 5.7. Of course, you could ignore the assumption of equilibrium, in which case the pH would be even higher. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
In a message dated 00-04-26 10:23:53 EDT, you write: n a message dated 00-04-26 10:09:39 EDT, you write: I would expect a low ph using arcing and carbon electrodes. Cabon plus oxygen gives carbon dioxide, which easily dissolves in water and produces carbonic acid. Marshall Marshall: I wrote the following to Ivan earlier. Perhaps you didn't see it. The pH measurments for my HVAC CS sample were obtained from 3 separate and independent sources. In addition, I checked the silver-list archives and found that the HVAC CS acidic pH phenomenon has been talked about repeatedly. As far as CO2 is concerned, there is NO WAY that the presence of carbonic acid could account for the low pH. For example, the CO2 typically dissolved in rainwater could be said to be in equilibrium with the ~380 ppm of CO2 in air. If you calculate the pH from this assumption you would arrive at a pH of 5.6 - 5.7. Of course, you could ignore the assumption of equilibrium, in which case the pH would be even higher. Roger Marshall: I should probably add that the use of carbon electrodes will create a much higher CO2 partial pressure above the water DURING PROCESSING. However, the CO2 will dissipate very quickly, and the ~380 ppm CO2 in the surrounding air will govern the FINAL concentration of carbonic acid in the water, i.e., the same equilibrium will be attained as in the example above. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
You can ignore the assumption of equilibrium for a while. That is, while highly concentrated CO2 is bubbling up in the water the water will attempt to reach equilibrium with the bubbles. Since CO2 is heavier than air, it will also tend to accumulate over the surface of the water if the air is still. Once the bubbling stops, if the container is left open, then it should lose absorbed CO2 until it reaches equilibrium with the air. An easy way to determine if CO2 or another gas is involved is to simply place the sample in a vacuum chamber for a minute and pull all the gases out. The same can be done by heating, but heating could cause other chemical changes. Marshall rogalt...@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 00-04-26 10:09:39 EDT, you write: I would expect a low ph using arcing and carbon electrodes. Cabon plus oxygen gives carbon dioxide, which easily dissolves in water and produces carbonic acid. Marshall Marshall: I wrote the following to Ivan earlier. Perhaps you didn't see it. The pH measurments for my HVAC CS sample were obtained from 3 separate and independent sources. In addition, I checked the silver-list archives and found that the HVAC CS acidic pH phenomenon has been talked about repeatedly. As far as CO2 is concerned, there is NO WAY that the presence of carbonic acid could account for the low pH. For example, the CO2 typically dissolved in rainwater could be said to be in equilibrium with the ~380 ppm of CO2 in air. If you calculate the pH from this assumption you would arrive at a pH of 5.6 - 5.7. Of course, you could ignore the assumption of equilibrium, in which case the pH would be even higher. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
unsubsribe me from this stuff! -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
Scharbatch , He-He, he's just playing around. Got cha. He knows how, making fun of those who don't comprehend. Please note how he deliberately misspells unsubscrie. Guess you missed his earlier posts. My spell checker keeps telling me to use the word starch in place of your name. :-) Bless youBob Lee Scharbach wrote: Try unsubscribing yourself.Just put UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line, and ONLY unsubscribe, and sent it to silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com or silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com depending on whether your on digest or e-mail. The last few you've sent in, have had unsubscribe in the body, or CS and Unsubscribe in the subject. unsubsribe me from this stuff! -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net -- oozing on the muggy shore of the gulf coast l...@fbtc.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
Try unsubscribing yourself.Just put UNSUBSCRIBE in the subject line, and ONLY unsubscribe, and sent it to silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com or silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com depending on whether your on digest or e-mail. The last few you've sent in, have had unsubscribe in the body, or CS and Unsubscribe in the subject. unsubsribe me from this stuff! -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
Guys, I never said the measurements were erroneous, I said that there is probably some other reason causing the low pH reading, perhaps ranging from CO2 inclusion to AgOH production, or possibly faulty / inappropriate pH measuring equipment. I mentioned pH test gear as a possible source of error with this quote in mind : Chemical reactions between electrolytes and the measured solution lead to errors. The resulting precipitates clog the pores of the junction and thereby increase the electrical resistance considerably. The following ions react with KCI to form compounds of low solubility: Hg 2+ , Cu 2+ , Ag + , Pb 2+ , CIO 4 I have a glass lab grade pH electrode and am vigilant in keeping the junction squeaky clean. I accept that pH of HVAC CS is acidic... now why is it so? Ivan. - Original Message - From: rogalt...@aol.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2000 00:38 Subject: Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein In a message dated 00-04-25 07:51:31 EDT, you write: Hi Roger and Ivan, My HVAC CS typically has a ph of 3.5 - 4.5 measured with an electronic ph meter or with ph strips. I don't think that defective measuring equipment is the problem or answer. This is using the arc method of producing CS. I do not know the ph from the submerged electrode method of producing HVAC. Bill Bill: Those who claim that the acidic pH measurements from HVAC CS are erroneous should support their claim with EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE. So far practically ALL the evidence I've seen supports your and my observations. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
In a message dated 00-04-25 09:16:19 EDT, you write: Guys, I never said the measurements were erroneous, I said that there is probably some other reason causing the low pH reading, perhaps ranging from CO2 inclusion to AgOH production, or possibly faulty / inappropriate pH measuring equipment. I mentioned pH test gear as a possible source of error with this quote in mind : Chemical reactions between electrolytes and the measured solution lead to errors. The resulting precipitates clog the pores of the junction and thereby increase the electrical resistance considerably. The following ions react with KCI to form compounds of low solubility: Hg 2+ , Cu 2+ , Ag + , Pb 2+ , CIO 4 I have a glass lab grade pH electrode and am vigilant in keeping the junction squeaky clean. I accept that pH of HVAC CS is acidic... now why is it so? Ivan. Ivan: I believe I addressed the CO2 issue earlier. As I said before, I don't believe that Ag+ is present in unadulterated, electrolytically produced CS, and even if it were, why would it clog the pores of the junction if a Ag/AgCl reference electrode were used. It seems to me that a saturated condition ALREADY EXISTS by virtue of the presence of solid AgCl, so precipitation specifically at the junction would be unlikely unless LOCAL temperature fluctuations caused periodic supersaturation. And even then, the supersaturated condition would be transient. Experience with READING a good quality pH meter should reveal measurement problems with CS, or anything else for that matter. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
Hi Ivan, I have just begun to test pH, with an cheap meter, the pH Testr II that Hach sells. Some 10 mg/L stuff tested 6.8, not very acidic. I hope your school is going well, James Osbourne Holmes FTNWO -Original Message- From: Ivan Anderson i...@win.co.nz To: silver-list@eskimo.com silver-list@eskimo.com Date: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 7:16 AM Subject: Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein Guys, I never said the measurements were erroneous, I said that there is probably some other reason causing the low pH reading, perhaps ranging from CO2 inclusion to AgOH production, or possibly faulty / inappropriate pH measuring equipment. I mentioned pH test gear as a possible source of error with this quote in mind : Chemical reactions between electrolytes and the measured solution lead to errors. The resulting precipitates clog the pores of the junction and thereby increase the electrical resistance considerably. The following ions react with KCI to form compounds of low solubility: Hg 2+ , Cu 2+ , Ag + , Pb 2+ , CIO 4 I have a glass lab grade pH electrode and am vigilant in keeping the junction squeaky clean. I accept that pH of HVAC CS is acidic... now why is it so? Ivan. - Original Message - From: rogalt...@aol.com To: silver-list@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, 26 April 2000 00:38 Subject: Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein In a message dated 00-04-25 07:51:31 EDT, you write: Hi Roger and Ivan, My HVAC CS typically has a ph of 3.5 - 4.5 measured with an electronic ph meter or with ph strips. I don't think that defective measuring equipment is the problem or answer. This is using the arc method of producing CS. I do not know the ph from the submerged electrode method of producing HVAC. Bill Bill: Those who claim that the acidic pH measurements from HVAC CS are erroneous should support their claim with EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE. So far practically ALL the evidence I've seen supports your and my observations. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
Hi Roger, I would just like to remind you, and myself, that I don't have all the answers... but will respond to the best of knowledge, limited though it is. - Original Message - From: rogalt...@aol.com In a message dated 00-04-25 01:33:15 EDT, you write: Roger as I understand it, the water molecule is naturally polarised taking this arrangement [H+] --- [O(2-)] --- [H+], ie having a negatively charged oxygen head and two positively charged hydrogen tails (the tails forming a ~105 deg angle). Good point Ivan. A batter way to have developed my idea would be to have said that in the presence of the charged aggregated CS particles, the polarization of the water molecules is enhanced. Silver ions become hydrated and form micelles, ie are surrounded by water molecules, in this case with their tails pointing out. Is there any reason to think that this is not what is happening? This happens with LVDC CS also, which, if well made is every bit as stable as well made HVAC CS. I have NO experience with the kind of LVDC CS that remains stable indefinitely. There is plenty arround, I myself have numerous samples, including 20L of Aug '98 vintage, which test exactly the same as the day they were made. As far as silver ions are concerned, I don't believe that silver ions are present, and even if they were, they would be associated with the NO3- anion (or perhaps you could name another -- as I said repeatedly on this forum positive or negative ions DO NOT exist as separate entities, but are always CLOSELY associated with ions of the opposite charge to preserve local electrical neutrality) which we already know produces an acidic pH (salt from a weak base, strong acid rule) ALL BY ITSELF. I disaggree here, it is quite possible to manufacture a silver colloid by precipitating the NO3 from a silver nitrate solution, leaving only the silver ions in solution. The fact that the water molecules surround the charged silver particles creates the local neutrality you mention, at the edge of the water layer. This 'double layer' is one of the defining features of colloidal systems, and is the basis for those structured waters which rely on the addition of small particles (usually silica based) as a 'template'. There is probably some other reason causing the low pH reading, perhaps ranging from CO2 inclusion to AgOH production, or possibly faulty / inappropriate pH measuring equipment. The pH measurments for my HVAC CS sample were obtained from 3 separate and independent sources. In addition, I checked the silver-list archives and found that the HVAC CS acidic pH phenomenon has been talked about repeatedly. As far as CO2 is concerned, there is NO WAY that the presence of carbonic acid could account for the low pH. For example, the CO2 typically dissolved in rainwater could be said to be in equilibrium with the ~380 ppm of CO2 in air. If you calculate the pH from this assumption you would arrive at a pH of 5.6 - 5.7. Of course, you could ignore the assumption of equilibrium, in which case the pH would be even higher. Well, that is getting low and rain water has a deal of other dissolved substances also, whereas distilled water has little of these and does readily absorb CO2 from the atmosphere. CO2 absorption may be a contributing factor, indeed when making pH measurements which are lower than expected this is the first place to look. As far as AgOH is concerned, you will have to elaborate on this topic. The HVAC CS I produce is crystal clear. Where is the insoluble (and as far as I know relatively unstable AgOH) hiding? It is perfectly possible to have a colloid of an insoluble substance. Silver itself could not be a colloid if it were soluble. AgO and AgOH will swap around depending on the pH of the solution and may have a very small particle size, besides which most insoluble substances are soluble to some degree. Ivan: You are correct. I have NOT SHOWN that HVAC CS and the water it is made in, is different structurally from LVDC CS and the water it is made in. I have provided a working hypothesis from which creative experiments should either support or negate my hypothesis. So far, IMHO anyway, you have done neither. Roger Altman Yes that's true enough, although I have tried to show that your theory of polarised water molecules being the cause of a low pH reading to be unlikely. I know that free Ag+ ions exist in my CS because I could not read them with my ISE if it were otherwise, and I would be happy to test your CS for the same, if you foot the bill for postage to New Zealandg Regards, Ivan. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
In a message dated 00-04-25 10:16:56 EDT, you write: I disaggree here, it is quite possible to manufacture a silver colloid by precipitating the NO3 from a silver nitrate solution, leaving only the silver ions in solution. The fact that the water molecules surround the charged silver particles creates the local neutrality you mention, at the edge of the water layer. Frankly, I'm baffled by this statement. However, since nitrate ions are not present in my model of what is occuring, I prefer not to travel down this road. Well, that is getting low and rain water has a deal of other dissolved substances also, whereas distilled water has little of these and does readily absorb CO2 from the atmosphere. CO2 absorption may be a contributing factor, indeed when making pH measurements which are lower than expected this is the first place to look. Ivan: I don't think you understood what I was saying. Let me try to make this point another way. Bubble air into distilled water and continue to measure the pH until the cows come home and tells us what you get. It is perfectly possible to have a colloid of an insoluble substance. Silver itself could not be a colloid if it were soluble. AgO and AgOH will swap around depending on the pH of the solution and may have a very small particle size, besides which most insoluble substances are soluble to some degree. Have you identified these species using SEM, TEM or by x-ray diffraction methods. If not, where's the evidence for such compounds? Yes that's true enough, although I have tried to show that your theory of polarised water molecules being the cause of a low pH reading to be unlikely. Ivan: I don't believe you have even begun to do that. I know that free Ag+ ions exist in my CS because I could not read them with my ISE if it were otherwise, and I would be happy to test your CS for the same, if you foot the bill for postage to New Zealandg If Ag+ ions exist, what are the counter-balancing anions. Static charge on colloidal silver particles is one thing, but separate positive or negative ions existing without INTIMATE association with ions of the opposite charge is impossible, and to suggest otherwise is incomprehensible to me. Roger -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
Re: CSProducing CS using HVAC Probably Restructures the Water it isMadein
unsubscribe -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: silver-list-requ...@eskimo.com -or- silver-digest-requ...@eskimo.com with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: silver-list@eskimo.com Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour mdev...@id.net
