Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS

[Steve King]

Ivan-

>
>What does Bruce have to say on the matter?

Bruce says (of course) that he has lab tested 
it extensively and the baking soda does not
react.  And according to a post by Brooks
awhile back, the baking soda may even
extended shelf life by adjusting PH.

>Why don't you try adding some cs to reach the same start up reading?

Excellent point. I asked Bruce about this
and he says that the conductivity of his
CS is so low that you would have to add
too much. The calibration procedure uses
a solution of approx 950 ppm CaCO3 sol 
administered in eye dropper doses.  

Please see this URL for details.. .

http://www.csprosystems.com/PhaserProInstructions.html


( Actually, I think I -will- try the CS seed
starter method, just for the sake
of experience.)

Many thanks -  Steve King




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Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS

[Ivan Anderson]

Steve,

What does Bruce have to say on the matter?
Does the baking soda (CaCO3?) react at all with the silver? If not,
then it will always be present as Ca++ and CO3-- ions and will affect
the reading by the original ppm or uS reading.

Why don't you try adding some cs to reach the same start up reading?

Ivan.

- Original Message -
From: Steve King 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 1999 23:25
Subject: Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS


> Ivan-
>
> >
> >Do you mean 3ppm TDS or 3uS.
>
> 3ppm
>
> >I must say that even my dw that has been around for months still
reads
> >1uS.
>
> I should clarify. The 3ppm is due to the calibration technique
> required by the 3-electrode CS Systems Phaser unit I'm using.
> Baking soda is added to pure water to bring the conductivity up to
> 3ppm (measured by the TDS meter).   The Phaser won't work
> without an initial conductivity that is roughly equivalent
> to 3ppm.
>
> This initial  3ppmTDS measurement corresponds to 6uS on the PWT
> meter -  which correlates to the conversion that Hanna gave me of
> 1ppm = 2 uS when measuring dissolved solids in water.
>
> Does this make any sense at all?!!?
>
> cheers,  Steve King
>
>
> >
> >Regards - Ivan



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Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS

[Steve King]

Ivan-

>
>Do you mean 3ppm TDS or 3uS.

3ppm

>I must say that even my dw that has been around for months still reads
>1uS.

I should clarify. The 3ppm is due to the calibration technique
required by the 3-electrode CS Systems Phaser unit I'm using. 
Baking soda is added to pure water to bring the conductivity up to
3ppm (measured by the TDS meter).   The Phaser won't work
without an initial conductivity that is roughly equivalent
to 3ppm.

This initial  3ppmTDS measurement corresponds to 6uS on the PWT 
meter -  which correlates to the conversion that Hanna gave me of
1ppm = 2 uS when measuring dissolved solids in water.

Does this make any sense at all?!!?

cheers,  Steve King


>
>Regards - Ivan
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Steve King 
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 1999 00:15
>Subject: Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS
>
>
>> Ivan-
>>
>> >As Ag+
>> >5ppm 1.76 2.8uS
>> >10ppm   1.76 5.7uS
>> >15ppm   1.77 8.5uS
>> >20ppm   1.77   11.3uS
>> >25ppm   1.78   14.0uS
>> >50ppm   1.79   27.9uS
>>
>> I've got a Hanna PWT (0-100uS) meter
>> and I'm very interested in
>> these figures.  How do I take
>> into account the initial TDS of the
>> batch water. say for instance I
>> start with water that has a TDS of
>> 3ppm and then after my run I measure
>> 11.3uS?   Do I subract the 3 from
>> 20ppm?
>>
>> Many thanx,
>>
>> Steve King
>
>
>
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>
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>
>

Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS

[Ivan Anderson]

Steve,

Do you mean 3ppm TDS or 3uS.

It really depends upon what the impurities are. If they are cations
such as copper sodium calcium potassium etc then they will not complex
with silver and will add to the reading. If some are anions such as
carbonate, carbon dioxide (HCO), nitrate, chloride etc then the silver
ions may combine to form insoluble salts. I should say that the latter
is less likely (forming compounds) and would assume that 3uS of your
reading is due to the water impurities and should be accounted for.

I must say that even my dw that has been around for months still reads
1uS.

Regards - Ivan

- Original Message -
From: Steve King 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 1999 00:15
Subject: Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS


> Ivan-
>
> >As Ag+
> >5ppm 1.76 2.8uS
> >10ppm   1.76 5.7uS
> >15ppm   1.77 8.5uS
> >20ppm   1.77   11.3uS
> >25ppm   1.78   14.0uS
> >50ppm   1.79   27.9uS
>
> I've got a Hanna PWT (0-100uS) meter
> and I'm very interested in
> these figures.  How do I take
> into account the initial TDS of the
> batch water. say for instance I
> start with water that has a TDS of
> 3ppm and then after my run I measure
> 11.3uS?   Do I subract the 3 from
> 20ppm?
>
> Many thanx,
>
> Steve King



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Re: CS>ppm standard - 1.74PPM/uS

[Steve King]

Ivan-

>As Ag+
>5ppm 1.76 2.8uS
>10ppm   1.76 5.7uS
>15ppm   1.77 8.5uS
>20ppm   1.77   11.3uS
>25ppm   1.78   14.0uS
>50ppm   1.79   27.9uS

I've got a Hanna PWT (0-100uS) meter
and I'm very interested in
these figures.  How do I take
into account the initial TDS of the
batch water. say for instance I
start with water that has a TDS of
3ppm and then after my run I measure
11.3uS?   Do I subract the 3 from
20ppm?

Many thanx,

Steve King


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Re: CS ppm standard - 1.6uS/PPM

[Fred]

"The page on water testing says "DO NOT BOTHER if you have added anything,
as our equipment will not accurately measure silver content, only total
PPM."  I am guessing the way around this is to send two samples, 1 of water
only and the other c.s.   Subtract the second from the first and that gives
silver ppm?  Would this be the case.

thanx
kk"

To some extent, that would work, but the simple conductivity tests can not
differentiate what is the material. Say you start with 10 PPM water and run
your process for the desired time you normally use. If the final PPM is still
10PPM, it would mean you made 10 PPM (OR less) of silver salts or 
compounds. What we look for is water that is much less then the desired
end result, such as 1PPM and then process to get 5PPM. Here, you could
be confident you have 5 PPM of silver; as 20% silver compounds and 80%
as ions (or crystals of you have poor controls). 

In our free water testing, we thus ask for samples of both your water and
silver colloid, so we can advise you what you might have made. As others
have explained, the more important consideration is the particle size, as
for the best bio-availability  and reactivity, smaller is better.

f...@health2us.com


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RE: CS ppm standard

[James Osbourne, Holmes]

Hi Bill,

Many experienced makers of CS think the best compromise of simplicity, 
economy and adequate accuracy for measuring PPM/mgL is with wet chemistry 
and a spectrophotometer.  That method is  much more reliable than measuring 
the conductivity of an Ag sol, which has significant variations between 
test instruments and is highly dependent upon calibration procedures.  Most 
who have tried it and checked the results with a spec. see wild variations 
in data.  You might write Bob Berger for his data.

A Spec can easily be checked by testing a precision dilution of a 
 certified silver standard, such as silver nitrate, and the method is 
inherently more stable.

A test for total silver can be done locally by a pro lab for about 30 
dollars, so it is not inaccessible to those who do not wish to set up a 
lab.

Regardless of the total silver in a sol, the parameter of particle size is 
much more important in determining the effectiveness of the sol.  A very 
low concentration of small particles, for example 5 mg/L, being more 
effective than a very high concentration of, for example alleged 500 mg/L. 
Particle size is much more expensive to measure, costing about $150 per 
test,  unless you do quite a few.

James Osbourne Holmes
a...@trail.com


-Original Message-
From:   Hutt William J (Bill) DLPC [SMTP:hut...@ncsc.navy.mil]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 20, 1999 9:23 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject:CS ppm standard



 I've read many e-mails on this forum about achieved ppm, but little on 
how the parties accomplished and confirmed their results.  It would be nice
to create a data base of methods in order to create a standard.
I have seen a couple of e-mails which addressed using a volt-ohm-meter
to read ppm.

 Example:  4usec/cm = 1/250kohms;  this measurement appears to be achieved
by placing the VOM probes in the CS solution at a spacing of 1cm.

Example2: 1ppm = 1.6usec/cm (+/- 20%);  If both examples are correct then
5ppm would be equal to 5ppm X 1.6usec/cm = 8usec/cm
 8usec/cm = 1/R = 125kohms resistance between the VOM probes which are
spaced 1cm apart in the CS solution.

If we can gather data from known ppm solutions using the above method ,a
rough standard could be established and everyone would know about what
strength of CS solution they have produced.

Resistance measurements of  5ppm, 10ppm, 20ppm, and 30ppm  should give a
well rounded data base.

I realize that their are many other factors to consider when trying to
measure ppm.  The purpose of this e-mail is to try and establish a standard
by which everyone can use without purchasing some expensive high tech
device.

If a simple standard has already been established, what is it?

 I would like to know if anyone has a recipe for making colloidal 
silver
salve.

 Thank you,

BillH


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Re: CS ppm standard - 1.6uS/PPM

[klkirk]

The page on water testing says "DO NOT BOTHER if you have added anything,
as our equipment will not accurately measure silver content, only total
PPM."  I am guessing the way around this is to send two samples, 1 of water
only and the other c.s.   Subtract the second from the first and that gives
silver ppm?  Would this be the case.

thanx
kk

At 01:04 AM 10/22/99 -0400, you wrote:
>For those that wonder what strength they have made, we always offer free
>testing of PPM (TDS method). The preparation and mailing info is at our
>general  health site at .


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Re: CS ppm standard

[Ivan Anderson]

- Original Message -
From: Hutt William J (Bill) DLPC 

>
> I would like to know what you setup is, mabey I can duplicate the
results
> that you have had.
>
Hi Bill,

Follow this link to the archives and you will find details of the
generating container and electrode arrangement that I have been using:
http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html?mID=10918

I will send a graph of ppm vs time vs uS vs resistance (as found at
electrodes) for a 9volt power supply if you would like.
I am going to run some other voltages this weekend and graph the
results.

Regards - Ivan.



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Re: CS ppm standard - 1.6uS/PPM

[Fred]

In reply to Ivan on the 1.6 uS = 1 PPM, I had gotten my conversion from 
Hanna Instruments. In their manual they say the ratio is from 1.4 to 2
uS/PPM, the latter being for CaCO2. From a phone discussion with their
technical people a few years ago I was given the 1.6 conversion number
for Colloidal Silver! The definition of PPM is by weight, of mg/liter so I
assume some chemist on the list could make an accurate solution and
then check the conductivity to check their conversion ratio.  Incidentially,
Hanna sells standard solutions of NaCl at 84 uS, which we use to 
verify our meters. 

For those that wonder what strength they have made, we always offer free
testing of PPM (TDS method). The preparation and mailing info is at our
general  health site at .

 Yes, I said FREE testing!

f...@health2us.com


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RE: CS ppm standard

[Hutt William J (Bill) DLPC]

-Original Message-
From: Ivan Anderson [mailto:i...@win.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 4:10 AM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS ppm standard



- Original Message -
From: Hutt William J (Bill) DLPC 

>  I've read many e-mails on this forum about achieved ppm, but
little on
> how the parties accomplished and confirmed their results.  It would be
nice
> to create a data base of methods in order to create a standard.

This is supposedly under way, at least I have made an initial
contribution, with more to follow as I find the time.

> I have seen a couple of e-mails which addressed using a volt-ohm-meter
> to read ppm.

>  Example:  4usec/cm = 1/250kohms;  this measurement appears to be
achieved
> by placing the VOM probes in the CS solution at a spacing of 1cm.
>
> Example2: 1ppm = 1.6usec/cm (+/- 20%);  If both examples are correct
then
> 5ppm would be equal to 5ppm X 1.6usec/cm = 8usec/cm
>  8usec/cm = 1/R = 125kohms resistance between the VOM probes which are
> spaced 1cm apart in the CS solution.

If only it were that simple...
Specific conductance is defined as consisting of a cell (portion of
solution) 1 cubic centimetre in dimension bounded on two opposing sides
by electrodes 1 cm square. So you can see that simply placing VOM probes
into the solution will not correlate (unless you know the cell constant
that these probes would develop). Also, conductivity measurement is
generally performed using an AC potential field of some 10K Hz or so to
avoid elctrolytic action and electrode polarisation.
In other words, one is better off using a cheap conductivity meter.

Concerning the examples you quote:
1.  4uS = 1/250K ohms by definition. 1S = 1/1ohm
2.  The equivalent weight of silver is 1.08 therefore the ppm as silver
ions (unless I am mistaken) is the conductivity measurement  x  1.08,
not 1.6 as someone reported. I questioned that figure when it was posted
but did not recieve a reply (may call into question the accuracy of some
commercial CS machines that have been sold).

 > If we can gather data from known ppm solutions using the above method
,a
> rough standard could be established and everyone would know about what
> strength of CS solution they have produced.
>
> Resistance measurements of  5ppm, 10ppm, 20ppm, and 30ppm  should give
a
> well rounded data base.

As explained, unless everybody uses the same conductivity (resistance)
parameters the results will not transfer from generator to generator.
Also there is a question about how reliable these results will be with
regard to the particle size of the colloid, although I have had good
correlation in my results between conductivity readings and ppm in my
clear and light yellow sols, more work needs to be done with darker
coloured CS products.

For what it is worth the specific resistance for the concentrations you
mention are:
5ppm - 215K ohms
10ppm -107.5K ohms
20ppm - 53.7K ohms
30ppm - 35.8K ohms

> I realize that their are many other factors to consider when trying to
> measure ppm.  The purpose of this e-mail is to try and establish a
standard
> by which everyone can use without purchasing some expensive high tech
> device.
>
> If a simple standard has already been established, what is it?
>
>  I would like to know if anyone has a recipe for making colloidal
silver
> salve.
>
>  Thank you,
>
> BillH

Regards - Ivan.


Ivan,

   I appreciate your responce.  I have only made 4 CS solutions, two which
were questionable( thru them out) one which I think was 5ppm(looked for CS
cloud waited 5 more minutes stopped process, solution was clear and stayed
clear). The set up was 30VDC current limited to 1.1mamps with 27kohm
resistor.  The process load current started at .25ma and ended with .79ma.
Total time 26min.
The last attempt set up was 27VDC current limited to 1ma.  Looked for CS
cloud waited 40 minutes(going for golden color) stopped process. Load
current started at .25ma and stopped at .81ma. Noticed solution slightly
clouded but not golden.
I haven't the slightest idea what the ppm is.

Silver was spaced 1/2 inch apart, 3 1/2 inches long.  Silver is flat 3/16
inch wide.

I would like to know what you setup is, mabey I can duplicate the results
that you have had.

   Thanks again
  
  BillH
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Re: CS ppm standard

[Henry Reed]

Elixa.com has a device that is supposed to make cs ointment.  I think
it's elixa.com.

Ivan Anderson wrote:
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Hutt William J (Bill) DLPC 
> 
> >  I've read many e-mails on this forum about achieved ppm, but
> little on
> > how the parties accomplished and confirmed their results.  It would be
> nice
> > to create a data base of methods in order to create a standard.
> 
> This is supposedly under way, at least I have made an initial
> contribution, with more to follow as I find the time.
> 
> > I have seen a couple of e-mails which addressed using a volt-ohm-meter
> > to read ppm.
> 
> >  Example:  4usec/cm = 1/250kohms;  this measurement appears to be
> achieved
> > by placing the VOM probes in the CS solution at a spacing of 1cm.
> >
> > Example2: 1ppm = 1.6usec/cm (+/- 20%);  If both examples are correct
> then
> > 5ppm would be equal to 5ppm X 1.6usec/cm = 8usec/cm
> >  8usec/cm = 1/R = 125kohms resistance between the VOM probes which are
> > spaced 1cm apart in the CS solution.
> 
> If only it were that simple...
> Specific conductance is defined as consisting of a cell (portion of
> solution) 1 cubic centimetre in dimension bounded on two opposing sides
> by electrodes 1 cm square. So you can see that simply placing VOM probes
> into the solution will not correlate (unless you know the cell constant
> that these probes would develop). Also, conductivity measurement is
> generally performed using an AC potential field of some 10K Hz or so to
> avoid elctrolytic action and electrode polarisation.
> In other words, one is better off using a cheap conductivity meter.
> 
> Concerning the examples you quote:
> 1.  4uS = 1/250K ohms by definition. 1S = 1/1ohm
> 2.  The equivalent weight of silver is 1.08 therefore the ppm as silver
> ions (unless I am mistaken) is the conductivity measurement  x  1.08,
> not 1.6 as someone reported. I questioned that figure when it was posted
> but did not recieve a reply (may call into question the accuracy of some
> commercial CS machines that have been sold).
> 
>  > If we can gather data from known ppm solutions using the above method
> ,a
> > rough standard could be established and everyone would know about what
> > strength of CS solution they have produced.
> >
> > Resistance measurements of  5ppm, 10ppm, 20ppm, and 30ppm  should give
> a
> > well rounded data base.
> 
> As explained, unless everybody uses the same conductivity (resistance)
> parameters the results will not transfer from generator to generator.
> Also there is a question about how reliable these results will be with
> regard to the particle size of the colloid, although I have had good
> correlation in my results between conductivity readings and ppm in my
> clear and light yellow sols, more work needs to be done with darker
> coloured CS products.
> 
> For what it is worth the specific resistance for the concentrations you
> mention are:
> 5ppm - 215K ohms
> 10ppm -107.5K ohms
> 20ppm - 53.7K ohms
> 30ppm - 35.8K ohms
> 
> > I realize that their are many other factors to consider when trying to
> > measure ppm.  The purpose of this e-mail is to try and establish a
> standard
> > by which everyone can use without purchasing some expensive high tech
> > device.
> >
> > If a simple standard has already been established, what is it?
> >
> >  I would like to know if anyone has a recipe for making colloidal
> silver
> > salve.
> >
> >  Thank you,
> >
> > BillH
> 
> Regards - Ivan.
> 
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> 
> To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to:
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> 
> List maintainer: Mike Devour 

Re: CS ppm standard

[Ivan Anderson]

- Original Message -
From: Hutt William J (Bill) DLPC 

>  I've read many e-mails on this forum about achieved ppm, but
little on
> how the parties accomplished and confirmed their results.  It would be
nice
> to create a data base of methods in order to create a standard.

This is supposedly under way, at least I have made an initial
contribution, with more to follow as I find the time.

> I have seen a couple of e-mails which addressed using a volt-ohm-meter
> to read ppm.

>  Example:  4usec/cm = 1/250kohms;  this measurement appears to be
achieved
> by placing the VOM probes in the CS solution at a spacing of 1cm.
>
> Example2: 1ppm = 1.6usec/cm (+/- 20%);  If both examples are correct
then
> 5ppm would be equal to 5ppm X 1.6usec/cm = 8usec/cm
>  8usec/cm = 1/R = 125kohms resistance between the VOM probes which are
> spaced 1cm apart in the CS solution.

If only it were that simple...
Specific conductance is defined as consisting of a cell (portion of
solution) 1 cubic centimetre in dimension bounded on two opposing sides
by electrodes 1 cm square. So you can see that simply placing VOM probes
into the solution will not correlate (unless you know the cell constant
that these probes would develop). Also, conductivity measurement is
generally performed using an AC potential field of some 10K Hz or so to
avoid elctrolytic action and electrode polarisation.
In other words, one is better off using a cheap conductivity meter.

Concerning the examples you quote:
1.  4uS = 1/250K ohms by definition. 1S = 1/1ohm
2.  The equivalent weight of silver is 1.08 therefore the ppm as silver
ions (unless I am mistaken) is the conductivity measurement  x  1.08,
not 1.6 as someone reported. I questioned that figure when it was posted
but did not recieve a reply (may call into question the accuracy of some
commercial CS machines that have been sold).

 > If we can gather data from known ppm solutions using the above method
,a
> rough standard could be established and everyone would know about what
> strength of CS solution they have produced.
>
> Resistance measurements of  5ppm, 10ppm, 20ppm, and 30ppm  should give
a
> well rounded data base.

As explained, unless everybody uses the same conductivity (resistance)
parameters the results will not transfer from generator to generator.
Also there is a question about how reliable these results will be with
regard to the particle size of the colloid, although I have had good
correlation in my results between conductivity readings and ppm in my
clear and light yellow sols, more work needs to be done with darker
coloured CS products.

For what it is worth the specific resistance for the concentrations you
mention are:
5ppm - 215K ohms
10ppm -107.5K ohms
20ppm - 53.7K ohms
30ppm - 35.8K ohms

> I realize that their are many other factors to consider when trying to
> measure ppm.  The purpose of this e-mail is to try and establish a
standard
> by which everyone can use without purchasing some expensive high tech
> device.
>
> If a simple standard has already been established, what is it?
>
>  I would like to know if anyone has a recipe for making colloidal
silver
> salve.
>
>  Thank you,
>
> BillH

Regards - Ivan.



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