Re: [Simh] pdp11 - console input with high bit set
On 2020-07-24 20:28, David Gesswein wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 06:12:17PM +, Paul Moore wrote: Not helped by not knowing what KSR really means. Keyboard send receive. A model 33 teletype without paper tape. ASR was the model with paper tape, Automatic send receive. DEC used teletype's that generated mark parity. From the manuals keyboards were available to generate other parity. A reasonable amount of old code for PDP-8's assumed mark parity. Later code ignores the upper bit. I thought the high bit setting would be turned off if you used set tti 7b or 8b but never verified. Which obviously won't help if the software running inside simh then expects MARK parity... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 - console input with high bit set
On 2020-07-24 19:53, Ethan Dicks wrote: On Fri, Jul 24, 2020 at 1:13 PM Paul Moore wrote: Johnny, I don't know what that means for simh On an xterm session, there may not be a way to do it. If you were running simh from a dumb terminal on a serial port, you could set your terminal to do 7E1 (even parity), and possibly a matching "stty parenb -parodd" , but the arg 'parenb' appears not to be valid from a window session. 7E1 obviously will not work when the software is expecting MARK parity. stty settings might work, but I would generally assume that simh would remove such things so that it can instead be applied inside the simulation, if wanted. Of course, right now my mind is drawing a blank, but I'm trying to remember if 7N2 could actually be a trick. But I can't remember if the stop bits equals mark or space. But if you have a reasonable terminal, it should be able to also properly do MARK parity as well. Johnny From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 1:37:27 AM To: Paul Moore ; Simh@trailing-edge.com You need to have your terminal set to MARK parity. On 2020-07-24 01:56, Paul Moore wrote: I am trying to run an RK11 diagnostic and am stuck. Looking at the code, it is looking for digits and then cr. But it is actually looking for #215, which is 0x8d. Which is CR with the high bit set. (It also looks for #377 del with HB set) So what happens is that it just keeps reprompting I don’t see how that character ever gets into the system. I did ‘set tti 8b’ but it made no difference. I can post the relevant code if needed. Does "set tti 7p" work for this? -ethan -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 - console input with high bit set
I would have to disagree with that. All older PDP-8 software is definitely using MARK parity, not EVEN. Both on input and output. (Sortof annoying if you aren't expecting it.) The ASR33, as configured by DEC, was normally also set up with MARK parity, which is probably the reason all software expected it. Actually, older PDP-11 software is also expecting MARK parity. Lots of the older diagnostics, for example. I wouldn't know about older PDP-10 software, but it would be a little surprising if they did things differently than PDP-8 and PDP-11. Johnny On 2020-07-24 19:26, Timothe Litt wrote: Actually, even parity was more common in the early daze of DEC async. MARK always sets the high bit - even sets it only to make the total number of 1s even. Quick test: Given that #215 is CR - If the code is looking for #212 for LF, it's mark. If it's looking for #012, it's even. Note also that the digits can also be used - e.g. '0' => 060 - is even, while 260 would be Mark (or Odd). Generating the expected format is a function of the terminal emulator. On 24-Jul-20 04:37, Johnny Billquist wrote: You need to have your terminal set to MARK parity. Johnny On 2020-07-24 01:56, Paul Moore wrote: I am trying to run an RK11 diagnostic and am stuck. The diagnostic asks the user how many drives to test and I can get the input to work Looking at the code, it is looking for digits and then cr. But it is actually looking for #215, which is 0x8d. Which is CR with the high bit set. (It also looks for #377 del with HB set) So what happens is that it just keeps reprompting I don’t see how that character ever gets into the system. I did ‘set tti 8b’ but it made no difference. I can post the relevant code if needed. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 - console input with high bit set
Technically, this is not something about simh at all. However, it is possible to do a workaround inside simh. But unless it is already implemented (in which case I would expect there to be some command or setting for it), you might need to modify the simh code to work around the problem. But bottom line is that the software you are running are expecting bytes received over the serial port to have MARK parity, so you need to ensure that you actually send data with MARK parity. The workaround would be to fake that the data received on the serial port have MARK parity by explicitly turning on the high bit on all received characters. Johnny On 2020-07-24 19:12, Paul Moore wrote: Johnny, I don't know what that means for simh Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36> *From:* Johnny Billquist *Sent:* Friday, July 24, 2020 1:37:27 AM *To:* Paul Moore ; Simh@trailing-edge.com *Subject:* Re: [Simh] pdp11 - console input with high bit set You need to have your terminal set to MARK parity. Johnny On 2020-07-24 01:56, Paul Moore wrote: I am trying to run an RK11 diagnostic and am stuck. The diagnostic asks the user how many drives to test and I can get the input to work Looking at the code, it is looking for digits and then cr. But it is actually looking for #215, which is 0x8d. Which is CR with the high bit set. (It also looks for #377 del with HB set) So what happens is that it just keeps reprompting I don’t see how that character ever gets into the system. I did ‘set tti 8b’ but it made no difference. I can post the relevant code if needed. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 - console input with high bit set
You need to have your terminal set to MARK parity. Johnny On 2020-07-24 01:56, Paul Moore wrote: I am trying to run an RK11 diagnostic and am stuck. The diagnostic asks the user how many drives to test and I can get the input to work Looking at the code, it is looking for digits and then cr. But it is actually looking for #215, which is 0x8d. Which is CR with the high bit set. (It also looks for #377 del with HB set) So what happens is that it just keeps reprompting I don’t see how that character ever gets into the system. I did ‘set tti 8b’ but it made no difference. I can post the relevant code if needed. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] FW: pdp 11 timing -> RT11 source
I haven't looked at the disk images provided. I do know that the sources are in the distribution, because you need them when generating a system tailored to your hardware. However, DEC only provided sources with all comments stripped out for RT-11 for this. (RSX on the other hand comes with sources where the comments are still in there.) Get the full sources if you asked for them? Well, if the question/request was accompanied by money, then yes. You could get the full sources. They were sold as a separate product by DEC. Johnny On 2020-07-21 06:34, Paul Moore wrote: You mean that it should be on the disk in the SIMH s/w kits?, I could not see any source. Its just one rk05 image. I also read you could get the full source if you asked. -Original Message- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 6:37 PM To: Paul Moore ; Simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] FW: pdp 11 timing RT11 distribution comes with (uncommented) sources. Johnny On 2020-07-21 00:31, Paul Moore wrote: At the moment my ambitions are very lightweight. A pdp 11/20 with a cassette drive (why that? cos CAPS11 is the first sw listed on the simh sw kit page). And next is an RK11 with rk05. So I can run RT11 (the second thing on that page). The point that I am hearing is that, in general , the PDP11 sw doesn’t rely on timing , there are a few corner cases tho. Contrast this with other systems where precise knowledge of video flyback times are built into the core of the OS for example. Or timing is achieved by looping instruction x n times to produce an exact delay. BTW - does anybody have the source of the RT11 on the simh kit site? I got the source of CAPS11 from Lou Ernst and it was a life saver. I could not have progressed without it. -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of s...@swabhawat.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 3:14 PM To: Simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: [Simh] FW: pdp 11 timing -->anf10 workstation on pdp11 with throttling L.S. Actually where this is important, is when using Pdp11 based ANF10 workstations in the Tops10 realm. When starting up, the Anf10 software on the pdp11 sim test various devices for functionality thereby using instruction count based loops etc. When all the devices necessary (paper tape reader/punch, incremental plotter interface, DZ and DH multiplexors, DMS and DUP/KDP devices and DL11 interfaces) are properly verified, it cranks up the communication configuration with scanning the network for active Pdp10 Tops10 host systems. The throttling of the pdp11 should be carefully selected to let this function. Reindert -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, 20 July, 2020 23:20 To: Paul Moore ; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] pdp 11 timing Instruction timing as such is not relevant. Different implementations had very different timings, not to mention that speed of memory also makes a difference. Devices basically do not have a strict timing either, but yes, there is plenty of software that assumes that an interrupt does not happen before a single instruction have been executed after the previous interrupt, from the same device, for example. On real hardware that was just an absurd case that lots of code never considered, since it wasn't really physically possible for it to happen. The throttling in simh is because some people want the emulation to somewhat mimic the real thing. For some people, that experience of slowness is desirable. Johnny On 2020-07-20 23:10, Paul Moore wrote: (I am writing my own emulator just because I have never done that before, and the PDP 11 is such a pivotal system in the history of modern computing it seemed worth learning about, and what better way to learn than to emulate it ) So how important is timing of instruction execution and device response? The PDP 11 docs go to great length giving instruction timing. But the fact that there is a % throttle in simh suggest that’s not important. I assume that turning that throttle up and down makes the emulated CPU go faster and slower. I have seen code using simple counters as delays but I assume that if you want precision you use the Kw11. With regards device responses I have found that going ’too fast’ upsets code. If they do something that triggers an interrupt (set ‘go’ for example) and the interrupt arrives too soon (like before the next instruction) they get surprised and can misbehave (you could argue that’s a bug, but that’s irrelevant). So always wait a few beats. But I assume there is no reason to try to precisely emulate the timing of , say, a disk drive. (The early handbooks state how awesome the async nature of the IO subsystem is cos you can swap out old for new and things just go faster). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?
Re: [Simh] FW: pdp 11 timing
RT11 distribution comes with (uncommented) sources. Johnny On 2020-07-21 00:31, Paul Moore wrote: At the moment my ambitions are very lightweight. A pdp 11/20 with a cassette drive (why that? cos CAPS11 is the first sw listed on the simh sw kit page). And next is an RK11 with rk05. So I can run RT11 (the second thing on that page). The point that I am hearing is that, in general , the PDP11 sw doesn’t rely on timing , there are a few corner cases tho. Contrast this with other systems where precise knowledge of video flyback times are built into the core of the OS for example. Or timing is achieved by looping instruction x n times to produce an exact delay. BTW - does anybody have the source of the RT11 on the simh kit site? I got the source of CAPS11 from Lou Ernst and it was a life saver. I could not have progressed without it. -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of s...@swabhawat.com Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 3:14 PM To: Simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: [Simh] FW: pdp 11 timing -->anf10 workstation on pdp11 with throttling L.S. Actually where this is important, is when using Pdp11 based ANF10 workstations in the Tops10 realm. When starting up, the Anf10 software on the pdp11 sim test various devices for functionality thereby using instruction count based loops etc. When all the devices necessary (paper tape reader/punch, incremental plotter interface, DZ and DH multiplexors, DMS and DUP/KDP devices and DL11 interfaces) are properly verified, it cranks up the communication configuration with scanning the network for active Pdp10 Tops10 host systems. The throttling of the pdp11 should be carefully selected to let this function. Reindert -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, 20 July, 2020 23:20 To: Paul Moore ; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] pdp 11 timing Instruction timing as such is not relevant. Different implementations had very different timings, not to mention that speed of memory also makes a difference. Devices basically do not have a strict timing either, but yes, there is plenty of software that assumes that an interrupt does not happen before a single instruction have been executed after the previous interrupt, from the same device, for example. On real hardware that was just an absurd case that lots of code never considered, since it wasn't really physically possible for it to happen. The throttling in simh is because some people want the emulation to somewhat mimic the real thing. For some people, that experience of slowness is desirable. Johnny On 2020-07-20 23:10, Paul Moore wrote: (I am writing my own emulator just because I have never done that before, and the PDP 11 is such a pivotal system in the history of modern computing it seemed worth learning about, and what better way to learn than to emulate it ) So how important is timing of instruction execution and device response? The PDP 11 docs go to great length giving instruction timing. But the fact that there is a % throttle in simh suggest that’s not important. I assume that turning that throttle up and down makes the emulated CPU go faster and slower. I have seen code using simple counters as delays but I assume that if you want precision you use the Kw11. With regards device responses I have found that going ’too fast’ upsets code. If they do something that triggers an interrupt (set ‘go’ for example) and the interrupt arrives too soon (like before the next instruction) they get surprised and can misbehave (you could argue that’s a bug, but that’s irrelevant). So always wait a few beats. But I assume there is no reason to try to precisely emulate the timing of , say, a disk drive. (The early handbooks state how awesome the async nature of the IO subsystem is cos you can swap out old for new and things just go faster). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmailm an.trailing-edge.com%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsimhdata=02%7C01%7C%7 C7737449fd7b940ede41e08d82cfa6bf7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7 C1%7C0%7C637308801343677110sdata=r%2BGE87iQAYJIJue9GPTrR7FESpVsQm hPhKxgm2CZCos%3Dreserved=0 -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] FW: pdp 11 timing -->anf10 workstation on pdp11 with throttling
Well, then the first question that needs to be answered, which model of PDP-11 was that code expected to run on, because the results will differ depending on that. Also, what kind of memory? (I would guess some old, small core memory boards.) The PDP-11 execution speed really does vary based on many factors, on real hardware... Johnny On 2020-07-21 00:13, s...@swabhawat.com wrote: L.S. Actually where this is important, is when using Pdp11 based ANF10 workstations in the Tops10 realm. When starting up, the Anf10 software on the pdp11 sim test various devices for functionality thereby using instruction count based loops etc. When all the devices necessary (paper tape reader/punch, incremental plotter interface, DZ and DH multiplexors, DMS and DUP/KDP devices and DL11 interfaces) are properly verified, it cranks up the communication configuration with scanning the network for active Pdp10 Tops10 host systems. The throttling of the pdp11 should be carefully selected to let this function. Reindert -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Monday, 20 July, 2020 23:20 To: Paul Moore ; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] pdp 11 timing Instruction timing as such is not relevant. Different implementations had very different timings, not to mention that speed of memory also makes a difference. Devices basically do not have a strict timing either, but yes, there is plenty of software that assumes that an interrupt does not happen before a single instruction have been executed after the previous interrupt, from the same device, for example. On real hardware that was just an absurd case that lots of code never considered, since it wasn't really physically possible for it to happen. The throttling in simh is because some people want the emulation to somewhat mimic the real thing. For some people, that experience of slowness is desirable. Johnny On 2020-07-20 23:10, Paul Moore wrote: (I am writing my own emulator just because I have never done that before, and the PDP 11 is such a pivotal system in the history of modern computing it seemed worth learning about, and what better way to learn than to emulate it ) So how important is timing of instruction execution and device response? The PDP 11 docs go to great length giving instruction timing. But the fact that there is a % throttle in simh suggest that’s not important. I assume that turning that throttle up and down makes the emulated CPU go faster and slower. I have seen code using simple counters as delays but I assume that if you want precision you use the Kw11. With regards device responses I have found that going ’too fast’ upsets code. If they do something that triggers an interrupt (set ‘go’ for example) and the interrupt arrives too soon (like before the next instruction) they get surprised and can misbehave (you could argue that’s a bug, but that’s irrelevant). So always wait a few beats. But I assume there is no reason to try to precisely emulate the timing of , say, a disk drive. (The early handbooks state how awesome the async nature of the IO subsystem is cos you can swap out old for new and things just go faster). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] FW: pdp 11 timing --> dectapes
I think Paul's suggestion was if you actually keep a tight look at
timing, the extra two bits actually do appear in the other register as
DMA is going on, so you could just blindly read them out at the right
times, and it might work...
Johnny
On 2020-07-21 00:12, s...@swabhawat.com wrote:
L.S.
When in the past using dectapes, we read/wrote Pdp10/8 dectapes on Rsx11-D.
On the Pdp11, you could do that only with READALL in interrupt mode to get the
2 extra bits, not in the standard dma mode.
Other (timesharing) users weren’t that happy because the interrupt processing
locked them out for a while, so to appease them it went a block at a time and
then wait a while.
Reindert
-Original Message-
From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist
Sent: Tuesday, 21 July, 2020 00:02
To: Paul Koning ; Paul Moore
Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com
Subject: Re: [Simh] pdp 11 timing
On 2020-07-20 23:18, Paul Koning wrote:
On Jul 20, 2020, at 5:10 PM, Paul Moore wrote:
(I am writing my own emulator just because I have never done that
before, and the PDP 11 is such a pivotal system in the history of
modern computing it seemed worth learning about, and what better way
to learn than to emulate it )
So how important is timing of instruction execution and device response?
The PDP 11 docs go to great length giving instruction timing. But the fact that there is a % throttle in simh suggest that’s not important. I assume that turning that throttle up and down makes the emulated CPU go faster and slower. I have seen code using simple counters as delays but I assume that if you want precision you use the Kw11.
With regards device responses I have found that going ’too fast’ upsets code. If they do something that triggers an interrupt (set ‘go’ for example) and the interrupt arrives too soon (like before the next instruction) they get surprised and can misbehave (you could argue that’s a bug, but that’s irrelevant). So always wait a few beats. But I assume there is no reason to try to precisely emulate the timing of , say, a disk drive. (The early handbooks state how awesome the async nature of the IO subsystem is cos you can swap out old for new and things just go faster).
For the most part that should work fine. The one exception I can think of is
DECtape. Driving one of those involves doing RNUM (read block number)
operations to look for the desired block, then switching to the read or write
data operation to do the actual I/O. If a block goes by too fast, that won't
work. Related: RT-11 has contiguous files, and DECtape I/O should be able to
see the consecutive blocks without overshooting, i.e., after block completion
the next action is another RNUM (I believe) which should see the next block.
Obviously, if running in a simulation, it would be rather silly to simulate
overrunning the block. The simulated tape can start and stop instantly, and
always seek to the correct block. So it would be rather complex to actually
implement the timing based behavior of the hardware in the first place.
I don't think any PDP-11 OS does timing based block position prediction ("overlapped
seek") on DECtape, the way TOPS-10 and (reported) VMS do. For that to work the
timing has to be rather more accurately emulated.
Checked the RSX code, and no, it don't seem to support overlapped seeks on
DECtape.
The VMS driver was an unofficial hack. Did it really do such tricks?
Lastly, I don't know if anyone expects RT-11 FILEX reading of TOPS-10 tapes to
work in emulation. If I remember right, that does a rather strange thing: DMA
the block to get the bottom 16 bits of each word, while watching the extended
data register to get the upper 2 bits as the words fly by. It doesn't use RALL
which would have been a cleaner solution. I think Anton said he didn't think
of that, which seems hard to believe.
That would be quite the trick.
FLX under RSX does not support any non-PDP11 tape formats.
Looking at some TC11 documentation - if you want to read 18-bit data, it looks
like you really should use RALL. Using RDATA might be possible, but it would
seem to be to be extremely difficult to do well. I am truly impressed if they
did it that way.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] pdp 11 timing
On 2020-07-20 23:18, Paul Koning wrote:
On Jul 20, 2020, at 5:10 PM, Paul Moore wrote:
(I am writing my own emulator just because I have never done that before, and
the PDP 11 is such a pivotal system in the history of modern computing it
seemed worth learning about, and what better way to learn than to emulate it )
So how important is timing of instruction execution and device response?
The PDP 11 docs go to great length giving instruction timing. But the fact that there is a % throttle in simh suggest that’s not important. I assume that turning that throttle up and down makes the emulated CPU go faster and slower. I have seen code using simple counters as delays but I assume that if you want precision you use the Kw11.
With regards device responses I have found that going ’too fast’ upsets code. If they do something that triggers an interrupt (set ‘go’ for example) and the interrupt arrives too soon (like before the next instruction) they get surprised and can misbehave (you could argue that’s a bug, but that’s irrelevant). So always wait a few beats. But I assume there is no reason to try to precisely emulate the timing of , say, a disk drive. (The early handbooks state how awesome the async nature of the IO subsystem is cos you can swap out old for new and things just go faster).
For the most part that should work fine. The one exception I can think of is
DECtape. Driving one of those involves doing RNUM (read block number)
operations to look for the desired block, then switching to the read or write
data operation to do the actual I/O. If a block goes by too fast, that won't
work. Related: RT-11 has contiguous files, and DECtape I/O should be able to
see the consecutive blocks without overshooting, i.e., after block completion
the next action is another RNUM (I believe) which should see the next block.
Obviously, if running in a simulation, it would be rather silly to
simulate overrunning the block. The simulated tape can start and stop
instantly, and always seek to the correct block. So it would be rather
complex to actually implement the timing based behavior of the hardware
in the first place.
I don't think any PDP-11 OS does timing based block position prediction ("overlapped
seek") on DECtape, the way TOPS-10 and (reported) VMS do. For that to work the
timing has to be rather more accurately emulated.
Checked the RSX code, and no, it don't seem to support overlapped seeks
on DECtape.
The VMS driver was an unofficial hack. Did it really do such tricks?
Lastly, I don't know if anyone expects RT-11 FILEX reading of TOPS-10 tapes to
work in emulation. If I remember right, that does a rather strange thing: DMA
the block to get the bottom 16 bits of each word, while watching the extended
data register to get the upper 2 bits as the words fly by. It doesn't use RALL
which would have been a cleaner solution. I think Anton said he didn't think
of that, which seems hard to believe.
That would be quite the trick.
FLX under RSX does not support any non-PDP11 tape formats.
Looking at some TC11 documentation - if you want to read 18-bit data, it
looks like you really should use RALL. Using RDATA might be possible,
but it would seem to be to be extremely difficult to do well. I am truly
impressed if they did it that way.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
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Re: [Simh] pdp 11 timing
Instruction timing as such is not relevant. Different implementations had very different timings, not to mention that speed of memory also makes a difference. Devices basically do not have a strict timing either, but yes, there is plenty of software that assumes that an interrupt does not happen before a single instruction have been executed after the previous interrupt, from the same device, for example. On real hardware that was just an absurd case that lots of code never considered, since it wasn't really physically possible for it to happen. The throttling in simh is because some people want the emulation to somewhat mimic the real thing. For some people, that experience of slowness is desirable. Johnny On 2020-07-20 23:10, Paul Moore wrote: (I am writing my own emulator just because I have never done that before, and the PDP 11 is such a pivotal system in the history of modern computing it seemed worth learning about, and what better way to learn than to emulate it ) So how important is timing of instruction execution and device response? The PDP 11 docs go to great length giving instruction timing. But the fact that there is a % throttle in simh suggest that’s not important. I assume that turning that throttle up and down makes the emulated CPU go faster and slower. I have seen code using simple counters as delays but I assume that if you want precision you use the Kw11. With regards device responses I have found that going ’too fast’ upsets code. If they do something that triggers an interrupt (set ‘go’ for example) and the interrupt arrives too soon (like before the next instruction) they get surprised and can misbehave (you could argue that’s a bug, but that’s irrelevant). So always wait a few beats. But I assume there is no reason to try to precisely emulate the timing of , say, a disk drive. (The early handbooks state how awesome the async nature of the IO subsystem is cos you can swap out old for new and things just go faster). ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Design considerations in the J11
larger. Accordingly, the J11 team hired a small army of summer students to create a machine-readable netlist from the paper circuit schematics and used the KS10 to do computer based IV - a first for DEC. /Bob Supnik ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16
Thanks for the additional details, Don. You definitely know more, and were more involved than I ever was. A couple of additional comments... On 2020-07-10 20:52, Don North wrote: On 7/10/2020 7:20 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-07-10 14:19, Paul Koning wrote: On Jul 9, 2020, at 10:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-07-10 04:37, Don North wrote: On 7/9/2020 6:25 PM, Bob Supnik wrote: Yes, the PDP11 Architecture Handbook was a post-facto effort. The J11 was finished; DEC did not intend to do another PDP11 processor. (I wrote a spec for one, primarily as an exercise in trying to do a different microcode structure than the PLA/ROM of the LSI11/F11/J11, but I lost it.) The only formal part of the PDP11 architecture was the Commercial Instruction Set extension, DEC STD 168, which was only implemented by the F11 and the 11/44. AND the PDP-11/74 CIS option, I might add. Fully implemented, never sold. Not to mention that the 11/74 in itself was fully implemented, but never sold... Not even the 11/70MP... Were there actually two prototypes called 11/74? I know the MP machine, which the RSX-11 development team owned. And in Merrimack (home of RSTS and some of the compiler teams) there was an 11/74 with CIS, for COBOL. But that one wasn't an MP machine. Perhaps a coincidence, I don't have a real memory either way. Well, yes and no... The PDP-11/70MP is a modified KB11-C. In the end it's really just a modified 11/70. There are changes to the microcode, and if I remember, a couple of boards were changed. (See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf). The PDP-11/74 is the KB11-E. This was a more major redesign, which then allowed for the addition of CIS. (See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/Prelim_KB11-E_Diffs_Aug78.pdf). But depending on what documentation you read, they might both be called 11/74. Johnny What Johnny said is basically correct. Way back then there were two separate programs going on: 1) a research program led by Verell Boaen (IIRC) on turning a standard 11/70 in an MP config. As indicated this required minor updates to the 11/70 microcode (to make the ASRB instruction act as a hardware interlock) and the IIST board for interprocessor communication. Multiport memory boxes also as I recall. This project was termed '11/70-MP'. It also required adding the cache bypass to the PDR register, the cache flush functionality, and enabling and disabling of the cache. So a few more changes, but nothing really surprising. Also yes, it required the MKA11 memory boxes, which had four ports. (And obviously the IIST.) 2) a hardware program led by Dick Brown (IIRC) in PDP-11 engineering to add CIS functionality to the 11/70 and update the CPU to what was called, then, the 11/74. Some changes to CPU microcode to support CIS instruction dispatch and communication with the four board CIS processor. Changes to 11/70 backplane. Changes to a few CPU modules (not many and not complex). Sadly the document I linked to, about the KB11-E differences, would appear to be incomplete. It lists some of the basics, but later chapters, which described the backplane and module list is missing. It would be interesting to see that one. I know I have seen lists of which modules were changed/different for the KB11-CM, and I think I've even read that some of those got around because they could be used in any 11/70. At some point the CPU microcode update for ASRB was folded into the 11/74 CPU also, making it MP compatible. Makes sense. The same is also true of the J11. I even have a plex of the updated 11/74 front panel I 'appropriated' when the 11/74 was canceled, Here is a scan: https://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg Nice. I think I've seen it before (you probably posted a link in the past). It would have been a really nice machine, if DEC only had released it. Ultimately DEC marketing canceled the 11/74 CIS. There have been arguments and justifications over the years as to exactly why, but my communications with the marketing folks at the time was that when benchmarking Cobol performance the 11/74 CIS significantly outperformed the 11/780 (which had just been released). So marketing had a positioning problem and the solution was to kill the 11/74 in favor of promoting the 11/780 family to eliminate the issue. Inarguably a wise decision at the time as the VAX was to be the future of DEC. At least until Alpha... Interesting, and a bit of a parallel story to why the 11/74 got cancelled in general. Legend has it that in the MP setup, it outperformed the 11/780. Of course, another rumor was that it was too complex to deal with, especially with all the flat cables going around. And yet another story was that it would have been too much special tailoring on a per customer basis, which was contrary to how most of the PDP-11 business was going, and was more
Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16
On 2020-07-10 19:16, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: On Fri, 10 Jul 2020 at 11:56, Tom Perrine wrote: Way back in the mid/late 80s we had a machine from ATT/Teradata which was a DB appliance. It was a standalone rack about the size of an RA81, IIRC. It claimed to have "single board PDP-11, a PDP-11/84" as the CPU. I had never heard of it before or since. Was that a typo? Hype? Flat out wrong? Some sort of OEM thing? The PDP-11/84, and PDP-11/94 for that matter, are the UNIBUS versions of the PDP-11/83 and PDP-11/93. Correct. The processors and memories are the exact same as their QBUS equivalent (11/84 uses the KDJ11-B processor of the '83; '94 uses the KDJ11-E of the '93; the memories are thus the same MSV11 PMI modules as you'd find in an '83 or '93). Except of course you don't find any memory modules in the 93/94, since all memory are on the CPU board. What makes them UNIBUS capable is the KTJ11 module at the very end of the (very short) Q22/CD backplane segment, which converts from Q22+PMI to UNIBUS (it's a hex module; AB being UNIBUS, CD+EF being Q22+PMI). It also contains the Unibus map, and also can take the same boot proms you might otherwise find on an M9312. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16
The 11/84 definitely is that size at least. And the cpu is just one chip. But it's on a board with some other stuff. Memory is separate though. With the 11/94 you had also memory on the same board. Johnny Tom Perrine skrev: (10 juli 2020 17:55:32 CEST) >Way back in the mid/late 80s we had a machine from ATT/Teradata which >was a >DB appliance. It was a standalone rack about the size of an RA81, >IIRC. >It claimed to have "single board PDP-11, a PDP-11/84" as the CPU. > >I had never heard of it before or since. Was that a typo? Hype? Flat >out >wrong? Some sort of OEM thing? > >Thanks! -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16
On 2020-07-10 14:19, Paul Koning wrote: On Jul 9, 2020, at 10:40 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-07-10 04:37, Don North wrote: On 7/9/2020 6:25 PM, Bob Supnik wrote: Yes, the PDP11 Architecture Handbook was a post-facto effort. The J11 was finished; DEC did not intend to do another PDP11 processor. (I wrote a spec for one, primarily as an exercise in trying to do a different microcode structure than the PLA/ROM of the LSI11/F11/J11, but I lost it.) The only formal part of the PDP11 architecture was the Commercial Instruction Set extension, DEC STD 168, which was only implemented by the F11 and the 11/44. AND the PDP-11/74 CIS option, I might add. Fully implemented, never sold. Not to mention that the 11/74 in itself was fully implemented, but never sold... Not even the 11/70MP... Were there actually two prototypes called 11/74? I know the MP machine, which the RSX-11 development team owned. And in Merrimack (home of RSTS and some of the compiler teams) there was an 11/74 with CIS, for COBOL. But that one wasn't an MP machine. Perhaps a coincidence, I don't have a real memory either way. Well, yes and no... The PDP-11/70MP is a modified KB11-C. In the end it's really just a modified 11/70. There are changes to the microcode, and if I remember, a couple of boards were changed. (See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf). The PDP-11/74 is the KB11-E. This was a more major redesign, which then allowed for the addition of CIS. (See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/Prelim_KB11-E_Diffs_Aug78.pdf). But depending on what documentation you read, they might both be called 11/74. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Simh Digest, Vol 198, Issue 16
On 2020-07-10 04:37, Don North wrote: On 7/9/2020 6:25 PM, Bob Supnik wrote: Yes, the PDP11 Architecture Handbook was a post-facto effort. The J11 was finished; DEC did not intend to do another PDP11 processor. (I wrote a spec for one, primarily as an exercise in trying to do a different microcode structure than the PLA/ROM of the LSI11/F11/J11, but I lost it.) The only formal part of the PDP11 architecture was the Commercial Instruction Set extension, DEC STD 168, which was only implemented by the F11 and the 11/44. AND the PDP-11/74 CIS option, I might add. Fully implemented, never sold. Not to mention that the 11/74 in itself was fully implemented, but never sold... Not even the 11/70MP... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 fails MAINDEC CPU test 14 D0NA
On 2020-07-10 02:31, Bob Eager wrote: On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 19:49:13 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: The best reference for implementation dependencies is the PDP11 architecture handbook. It covers the topic in Appendix B, 13 pages, 52 separate items. I don't see it on Bitsavers, unfortunately. http://wwcm.synology.me/pdf/EB-23657-18%20PDP-11%20Architecture%20Handbook.pdf Cool. Someone should tell Al, so he can put it on bitsavers as well... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 fails MAINDEC CPU test 14 D0NA
On 2020-07-10 02:19, Paul Koning wrote: The VAX architecture seems to have been an explicit design effort. For the Alpha this was even more obvious, where a monstrously large book (certainly 500 pages, maybe double that) was written and reviewed in depth before anything was cast into silicon. Not so for the PDP11, as you pointed out. It definitely was an explicit effort. I seem to remember seeing/reading somewhere at some point that this was because of what had happened on the PDP-11. So a lesson learned kind of thing. I used to have an Alpha Architecture manual, but I lost it somewhere along the way. :-( I do have the VARM on paper, though. If I remember right, it's even the later version which also covers the extensions that happened. (And of course, this document is available online anyway...) My suspicion is that the PDP-11 architecture handbook was an after the fact effort. The date (1983) supports that notion. Also, it's a handbook, a fat paperback like the processor and peripheral handbooks. I don't know of any internal analog, like DEC Std 032 for VAX. Yeah, I would expect that it would an after the fact thing. But it would still be interesting to see any effort made by DEC to put it all in one book. As mentioned, the list (maybe in different revisions) do exist in multiple other handbooks and manuals. But then it's just an appendix without much further analysis. I think I also saw/read somewhere that different new PDP-11 implementations basically tried to look at what had previously been done, and tried to just match that, as there was no official definition of a PDP-11. But then they always did some deviation or other for the sake of efficiency, cost or just clean up. The document number is EB-23657-18. They seem to be around for sale, I see some in the $20-25 range which is not bad. I'm hesitant to let mine out of my sights though I might at some point. No worries. I always have some curiosity for all kind of documentation, but this is not very critical for any understanding, or work. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 fails MAINDEC CPU test 14 D0NA
Yes, if the test says that, it must be wrong, since the 11/05 and 11/20 do not do the same thing here. This is documented in the MicroPDP-11 Handbook, for example (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/EB-24944-18_Micro_PDP-11_Handbook_1983-84.pdf, page 379 and forward). Johnny On 2020-07-10 00:37, Paul Moore wrote: So the test doc is wrong then, it says valid for 11/05, 20 and 10 (this is the MAINDEC manual dated oct 73) I was running with SET CPU 11/05 Maybe the engineers knew to just ignore that failure, 'don’t worry they all halt there, just hit run, trust me' Ran the same test on 11/20 and it passes TBC - none of this is my code, either the test or the emulator, running DEC diagnostics on simh v4. This was just an FYI for you I am stilling trying to get past the test of executing an IOT with the T bit set, that’s a tough one to get right . SO I have not reached this test yet -Original Message- From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Thursday, July 9, 2020 3:14 PM To: Paul Moore ; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] pdp11 fails MAINDEC CPU test 14 D0NA This is a test that tests something which is actually implementation dependent. So you need to run the appropriate test on the appropriate CPU. More specifically: The following processor uses the original content of Rn as source when doing an operation like MOV Rn,(Rn)+ LSI-11, 11/04, 11/05, 11/10, 11/34, 11/44, 11/45, 11/70. The following processors uses the modified content of Rn as source when doing an operation like MOV Rn,(Rn)+ 11/15, 11/20, 11/23, 11/24, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60, J11 So, depending on which CPU you are planning to emulate, you need to do this differently... And just so you know, there are other implementation defined differences between different models as well, which you probably should research, if you want your emulation to behave correctly... Johnny On 2020-07-10 00:00, Paul Moore wrote: Not sure if you are interested but I found that simh fails test 14. (Running the tests on my own emu project and wondered if simh would pass all of these nasty tests too) 007176: 010700 mov r7,r0 ; @. 007200: 012700 006340 mov #6340,r0 ; @.`. 007204: 010020 mov r0,(r0)+ ; .. 007206: 026727 177126 006342 cmp 6340,#6342 ; W-V~b. 007214: 001401 beq 7220 ; .. 007216: 00 halt ; .. If you don’t know these test the general layout is as follows Load pc in r0 (presumably to identify the test if a halt occurs) Run the test Halt if fail Next test Simh halts at 7220 This test is verifying the behavior of using the contents of an auto increment register. IE exactly when does the register change value in the instruction flow Mov r0,(r0)+ Their test expects the value moved to DD to be the new value of R0. Ie the incremented register value is committed as soon as it is used to calculate the address Simh(v4) (running as 11/05 not tried other models) moves the old value. Ie the register update is not processed until the instruction is complete sim> e r0 R0: 006342 sim> e 6340 6340: 006340 ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] pdp11 fails MAINDEC CPU test 14 D0NA
This is a test that tests something which is actually implementation dependent. So you need to run the appropriate test on the appropriate CPU. More specifically: The following processor uses the original content of Rn as source when doing an operation like MOV Rn,(Rn)+ LSI-11, 11/04, 11/05, 11/10, 11/34, 11/44, 11/45, 11/70. The following processors uses the modified content of Rn as source when doing an operation like MOV Rn,(Rn)+ 11/15, 11/20, 11/23, 11/24, 11/35, 11/40, 11/60, J11 So, depending on which CPU you are planning to emulate, you need to do this differently... And just so you know, there are other implementation defined differences between different models as well, which you probably should research, if you want your emulation to behave correctly... Johnny On 2020-07-10 00:00, Paul Moore wrote: Not sure if you are interested but I found that simh fails test 14. (Running the tests on my own emu project and wondered if simh would pass all of these nasty tests too) 007176: 010700 mov r7,r0 ; @. 007200: 012700 006340 mov #6340,r0 ; @.`. 007204: 010020 mov r0,(r0)+ ; .. 007206: 026727 177126 006342 cmp 6340,#6342 ; W-V~b. 007214: 001401 beq 7220 ; .. 007216: 00 halt ; .. If you don’t know these test the general layout is as follows Load pc in r0 (presumably to identify the test if a halt occurs) Run the test Halt if fail Next test Simh halts at 7220 This test is verifying the behavior of using the contents of an auto increment register. IE exactly when does the register change value in the instruction flow Mov r0,(r0)+ Their test expects the value moved to DD to be the new value of R0. Ie the incremented register value is committed as soon as it is used to calculate the address Simh(v4) (running as 11/05 not tried other models) moves the old value. Ie the register update is not processed until the instruction is complete sim> e r0 R0: 006342 sim> e 6340 6340: 006340 ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] MAME and simh
On 2020-07-03 14:54, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: Oh, and just for the people who don't want to read a lot of documentation, the smooth scrolling is essentially done by the terminal by changing where the source of the video signal generation picks up font information [...] I hope that made sense... :-) Thanks, I think it does. Emulation at this level of detail really isn't that uncommon now. I can't say that I've seen much of it anywhere. The VT100 also have a lookup table for each line, so that scrolling can be done fast, but which also means that the video generation needs to also go through that table. While obviously you can always emulate anything, the emulating of detail down to analog signals is not something you do that often, unless there is additional reasons to. One reason being that this starts becoming a performance problem. Many analog simlulations/emulations are not done in realtime because of that. But if we want to emulate a terminal, I would say that realtime emulation of the hardware is a must. And it's easy to just do it partially. You do have the video memory, and for most purposes that would be good enough for the emulation to work satisfactory, a thing like the smooth scrolling means you no longer can stop at the abstraction of the video memory... And to take this one step further. Emulation of this then means you need to start emulation the video signal generation. And that in turn means you are going to do emulation of the CRT phosphor. I have no idea how MAME works, but SIMH does that for vector displays. Well, MAME also do vector displays. Asteroids being the classical example. The current implemenation may not be suitable for raster displays, but it wouldn't be a huge step to add this. At some level this is obviously rather trivial. We are after all simply talking about generation of a signal based on the scanning of memory, and a bit of logic to do the sweeps and sync. An interesting question becomes at what speed it can be done. Vector displays have a limit on the number of vectors that can be displayed without flicker, and for the old machines, that was not too great to start with, so simulations can certainly deal with it, and can even get away with some cheating to make it work even when pressed. After all, since you're also faking the phosphor decay, it can be varied as needed. With a raster display though, you need to be doing all the lines all the time, at an acceptable rate, and deal with the additional hardware logic of the CRT. Again, definitely not impossible. But I'm curious what the speed would look like, and I cannot remember seeing anyone who have already done it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] MAME and simh
On 2020-07-03 13:24, Johnny Billquist wrote: Oh, and just for the people who don't want to read a lot of documentation, the smooth scrolling is essentially done by the terminal by changing where the source of the video signal generation picks up font information, so that you actually start scanning at a specific line of the font definition for characters at the video generation stage. And then you do additional trickery so that you start scanning the next line data as well, so that compared to the line above, this line is generated using data from two lines, and your picking up font definition lines with offsets, and then you need a bit of special casing for the first and last lines of the region. I hope that made sense... :-) And to take this one step further. Emulation of this then means you need to start emulation the video signal generation. And that in turn means you are going to do emulation of the CRT phosphor. The video memory is not at all involved in this whole feature/function. Does MAME emulation the video signal generation? I thought it didn't. But then again, MAME do support games that use vector graphics, where it obviously do need to emulate things at this level, so it definitely could do it... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] MAME and simh
On 2020-07-03 13:19, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-07-03 13:14, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: I am not at all sure I agree with that... I think you too should look at the VT100 technical manual and see how soft scrolling is done, as an example of a place where the hardware emulation can actually become rather tricky... Now I'm curious. If you have a title and a page number, I will take a look. I posted this last night, but here it comes again: You really should check out of smooth scrolling on the VT100 is accomplished... (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/EK-VT100-TM-003_VT100_Technical_Manual_Jul82.pdf, page 4-97, section 4.7.9 - "Split Screen Smooth Scrolling". Emulating those hardware tricks are not going to be easy... Oh, and just for the people who don't want to read a lot of documentation, the smooth scrolling is essentially done by the terminal by changing where the source of the video signal generation picks up font information, so that you actually start scanning at a specific line of the font definition for characters at the video generation stage. And then you do additional trickery so that you start scanning the next line data as well, so that compared to the line above, this line is generated using data from two lines, and your picking up font definition lines with offsets, and then you need a bit of special casing for the first and last lines of the region. I hope that made sense... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] MAME and simh
On 2020-07-03 13:14, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: I am not at all sure I agree with that... I think you too should look at the VT100 technical manual and see how soft scrolling is done, as an example of a place where the hardware emulation can actually become rather tricky... Now I'm curious. If you have a title and a page number, I will take a look. I posted this last night, but here it comes again: You really should check out of smooth scrolling on the VT100 is accomplished... (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/EK-VT100-TM-003_VT100_Technical_Manual_Jul82.pdf, page 4-97, section 4.7.9 - "Split Screen Smooth Scrolling". Emulating those hardware tricks are not going to be easy... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] MAME and simh
On 2020-07-03 06:51, Peter Svensson wrote: Hi all, This is getting a bit silly. Compared to some of the other things MAME emulates the vt100 and other terminals should be downright easy. I am not at all sure I agree with that... I think you too should look at the VT100 technical manual and see how soft scrolling is done, as an example of a place where the hardware emulation can actually become rather tricky... As to why, well there is not much reason to run simh either, except that it pleases us. I guess the same applies here. More power to whoever wants to do this. Let's help them instead of explaining why it is useless. If you actually bothered reading through my answer, you would have seen that I didn't argue against running MAME as a terminal emulator, or claimed that it was useless. Instead I was trying to point out that he should only run the correct firmware on the emulated hardware, and he needed to get it running by itself before he started figuring out how to connect to simh. For the connection to simh the quickest way may be to start with the tcp connection to the console / serial line cards. And before he actually have a working terminal in MAME, I would say he should fix that instead of trying to get something non-working connected to simh. Johnny Peter On July 3, 2020 12:05:39 AM GMT+02:00, Johnny Billquist wrote: Just a couple of comments... On 2020-07-02 13:16, Peter Allan wrote: Well my request for help getting MAME to talk to simh has generated a lot of replies, so let me deal with them in groups. Why not use PuTTY for the VT emulator? What is the point of trying to use MAME for VT emulation? My reason for being interested in using MAME is that it is NOT a terminal emulator program All terminal emulator programs such as PuTTY, xterm, SecureCRT, etc, are pieces of software that aim to emulate the functions of a particular type of terminal. While all of them are useful (I use putty and xterm quite a lot myself), all of them fail to implement some features of the physical terminal. Usually this is not a problem, but occasionally I find it really annoying. The point about MAME is that, rather like simh itself, it simulates the hardware and runs the real firmware from real VTxxx ROMs. In the case of the VT terminal configuration, MAME simulates an 8085 microprocessor and executes the code from the original ROMs. Hence all the features of a physical terminal should be present automatically. I can understand the need/interest/fun of running the actual firmware instead of some emulation. But of course you then have the question of how accurately that hardware emulation is. It's more than just a question of emulating the CPU that is inside the terminal. DEC was doing some pretty nifty things in hardware to allow some features to work. You really should check out of smooth scrolling on the VT100 is accomplished... (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/EK-VT100-TM-003_VT100_Technical_Manual_Jul82.pdf, page 4-97, section 4.7.9 - "Split Screen Smooth Scrolling". Emulating those hardware tricks are not going to be easy... Anyway, to also point out something else, the VT100 have an 8080. The VT220 have an 8051, while the VT240 have a T11 as the main processor, and an 8085 for the video logic. This should tell you a little bit about the futility of trying to run the wrong ROMs on the emulator... As for getting MAME to talk to simh, I think you need to start with just MAME playing a terminal at all. Once you accomplish that, then you can start looking at how to hook them up. If the VT simulation in MAME was fully accurate, you would have a serial connector on the back, which the terminal uses. So then you need to run a cable to a serial port used by simh. But of course, you probably do not want an emulation down to that level, but are expecting to simulate the serial ports... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Terminal emulation = MS-Kermit!
I seem to remember having tested SecureCRT once, and found a few incorrect behaviors in there. But I no longer remember the details. So far, the only emulators I have tested that did not do things wrong one way or another have been xterm and DEC's terminal program supplied with Pathworks. I do remember back in the day that MS-Kermit was usually very good, but I have never properly tested if it really handles some of the more odd issues I've found elsewhere. And I have a small list of my favorite tests that I usually run through when checking, so I am not using VTTEST. Johnny On 2020-07-03 05:18, Dan Gahlinger wrote: Tony, that is very cool! As far as I can see, SecureCRT (v8.7.2-May/2020) appears to produce expected results, nice! I'll have to go through all the options in all the submenus, which could take a while. Dan. *From:* Simh on behalf of Tony Nicholson *Sent:* July 2, 2020 10:55 PM *To:* SIMH *Subject:* Re: [Simh] Terminal emulation = MS-Kermit! On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 10:43 AM Johnny Billquist <mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote: Actually, xterm can support both regis and sixel. However, I don't think it supports soft fonts. I have not tested the graphics extensions to xterm very much though, so I don't know how good they might be. I am truly curious if MAME really handles the soft scrolling as done by the VT100... The VTTEST program will help verify features of a terminal emulation (for VT100 and variants, VT200-series, etc). See https://invisible-island.net/vttest/ Tony ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Terminal emulation = MS-Kermit!
On 2020-07-03 04:55, Tony Nicholson wrote: On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 10:43 AM Johnny Billquist <mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote: Actually, xterm can support both regis and sixel. However, I don't think it supports soft fonts. I have not tested the graphics extensions to xterm very much though, so I don't know how good they might be. I am truly curious if MAME really handles the soft scrolling as done by the VT100... The VTTEST program will help verify features of a terminal emulation (for VT100 and variants, VT200-series, etc). See https://invisible-island.net/vttest/ That VTTEST page have a couple of slightly incorrect bits of information, and the soft scrolling is a purely visual effect. The scrolling regions as such is also something that needs testing, but the soft scrolling part is yet another step on top of that. So while VTTEST (in any version) would be a fun test, I would expect VTTEST should not be able to spot any errors if you are running the original VT100 firmware, as that is by definition doing the correct things. But correct emulation of the hardware is yet again a different topic. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Terminal emulation = MS-Kermit!
Actually, xterm can support both regis and sixel. However, I don't think it supports soft fonts. I have not tested the graphics extensions to xterm very much though, so I don't know how good they might be. I am truly curious if MAME really handles the soft scrolling as done by the VT100... Johnny On 2020-07-03 02:31, Timothy Stark wrote: Yes, MS-Kermit supports Tek4010/4014 graphics mode and Sixel mode. It does not support ReGIS commands. I used it at Gallaudet for downloading files and access VAX system. None of today's terminal emulators support graphics modes. Only DEC terminal emulators on MAME does support all features fully. Only VT52, VT100 and VT240 are working on MAME at this time. I took a look on MAME source codes. I noticed that VT125, VT220, VT320, VT330, VT340, VT420 and VT520 are skeleton at this time. VT241 (color version) is not implemented yet. If you want ReGIS commands on terminal, use VT240 on MAME. Tim -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa Sent: Thursday, July 2, 2020 8:13 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: [Simh] Terminal emulation = MS-Kermit! I said it decades ago, and I’ll say it again, MS-Kermit is incredibly useful in emulating DEC Terminals. I am particularly fond of its ability to put the Gold key in the right place on a PC-clone keypad. Tim N3QE ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] MAME and simh
Just a couple of comments... On 2020-07-02 13:16, Peter Allan wrote: Well my request for help getting MAME to talk to simh has generated a lot of replies, so let me deal with them in groups. > Why not use PuTTY for the VT emulator? >What is the point of trying to use MAME for VT emulation? My reason for being interested in using MAME is that it is NOT a terminal emulator program All terminal emulator programs such as PuTTY, xterm, SecureCRT, etc, are pieces of software that aim to emulate the functions of a particular type of terminal. While all of them are useful (I use putty and xterm quite a lot myself), all of them fail to implement some features of the physical terminal. Usually this is not a problem, but occasionally I find it really annoying. The point about MAME is that, rather like simh itself, it simulates the hardware and runs the real firmware from real VTxxx ROMs. In the case of the VT terminal configuration, MAME simulates an 8085 microprocessor and executes the code from the original ROMs. Hence all the features of a physical terminal should be present automatically. I can understand the need/interest/fun of running the actual firmware instead of some emulation. But of course you then have the question of how accurately that hardware emulation is. It's more than just a question of emulating the CPU that is inside the terminal. DEC was doing some pretty nifty things in hardware to allow some features to work. You really should check out of smooth scrolling on the VT100 is accomplished... (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt100/EK-VT100-TM-003_VT100_Technical_Manual_Jul82.pdf, page 4-97, section 4.7.9 - "Split Screen Smooth Scrolling". Emulating those hardware tricks are not going to be easy... Anyway, to also point out something else, the VT100 have an 8080. The VT220 have an 8051, while the VT240 have a T11 as the main processor, and an 8085 for the video logic. This should tell you a little bit about the futility of trying to run the wrong ROMs on the emulator... As for getting MAME to talk to simh, I think you need to start with just MAME playing a terminal at all. Once you accomplish that, then you can start looking at how to hook them up. If the VT simulation in MAME was fully accurate, you would have a serial connector on the back, which the terminal uses. So then you need to run a cable to a serial port used by simh. But of course, you probably do not want an emulation down to that level, but are expecting to simulate the serial ports... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] EXT : MAME and simh
On 2020-07-02 04:06, Tony Nicholson wrote: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 11:24 AM James W. Laferriere mailto:bab...@baby-dragons.com>> wrote: Hello Bob , On Wed, 1 Jul 2020, Bob Eager wrote: > xterm works extremely well if set up right. Following up on your note above , Would You or someone please post a URL for the proper setup of xterm to emulate say a vt240/vt340/... (ie: a color enabled terminal) ? Or even the equivalent DecTerm color output ... xterm by default understands colors using the ANSI sequences that were eventually defined for this. Even when you are pretending to be a VT100. Tia , JimL Jim, For xterm, these are the .Xdefaults entries I have on my Mac Mini - [...] And it's worth pointing out that these are X resources. Just placing them in a file does not by itself make them apply. You might have some components run when you start that would load these resources, but then again they might not. You can always load such resources by hand, by giving "xrdb -load " My resources looks like this: *.vt100.decTerminalID: 220 *.vt100.c132: true *.vt100.saveLines: 1000 *.ptyInitialErase: true *.backarrowKeyIsErase: true *.backarrowKey: false *.sunKeyboard: true *.rightScrollBar: true xterm.vt100.activeIcon: false xterm.vt100.multiScroll: true local.utmpInhibit: false local.title: Terminal local.vt100.loginShell: false local.vt100.scrollBar: true remote.utmpInhibit: false remote.title: Terminal remote.vt100.loginShell: true remote.vt100.scrollBar: true xunix.utmpInhibit: true xunix.title: Xunix terminal xunix.vt100.loginShell: false xunix.vt100.scrollBar: true rsx.utmpInhibit: true rsx.title: RSX terminal rsx.vt100.loginShell: false rsx.vt100.scrollBar: true rsx.sunKeyboard: true vms.utmpInhibit: true vms.title: VMS terminal vms.vt100.loginShell: false vms.vt100.scrollBar: true And this is what I use on my MAC. And then I start xterm with: xterm +sf +sp -aw -ut -132 -ti vt220 -sb -sl 500 -name rsx & Which then uses the resources named rsx.* And wildcard matching means that things that start with *... are of course applicable, but later entries override the earlier ones, if applicable. (And yes, I have some duplication of information and it could be cleaned up some. The file have evolved over 30 years...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] EXT : MAME and simh
On 2020-07-01 21:08, Bob Eager wrote: xterm works extremely well if set up right. So far, xterm is the only one I've used that actually works correctly. Even putty does some things wrong. (That said, the terminal program coming with Pathworks (the name escapes me), might also be good enough, from what I gather, but since I don't really use Windows much, it's mostly irrelevant for me). Johnny On Wed, 1 Jul 2020 16:37:24 + Dan Gahlinger wrote: or SecureCRT which has a whole slew of VT terminal support, control and options. free for 30 days but definitely worth the price. it's what I use for my vax emulation with simh MAME is multi ARCADE machine emulator, and while it may support or use the roms for VT terminals, it's only meant for use with the game machines that need it. don't ask me which ones, I have no idea. as per mame maybe you could be confusing "rom" with "firmware" mame emulating a VT terminal makes zero sense. Dan From: Simh on behalf of Hittner, David T [US] (MS) Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 11:17:47 AM To: Peter Allan ; Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List Subject: Re: [Simh] EXT : MAME and simh Why not use PuTTY for the VT terminal emulator, which is known to work with SIMH? What is the point of trying to use MAME for VT emulation? From: Simh On Behalf Of Peter Allan Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2020 9:34 AM To: Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List Subject: EXT :[Simh] MAME and simh Hi folks, I am trying to get MAME to talk to simh in order to use MAME as a VT terminal emulator. However, I am failing to get the two to talk to each other. I have been using simh for over 10 years, but I only picked up MAME two days ago. I have tried MAME v 0.222 on Windows 10 and MAME v 0.208 on Debian 10.1. Both start up successfully, but I have trouble using them. I also have a set of 13 ROMs for several VT terminals. I have found some helpful information on the web, specifically https://zork.net/~st/jottings/Real-VT102-emulation-with-MAME.html and https://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/MAME_and_SIMH The latter page looks like it should be just what I am looking for, but it describes using a VT240 ROM. My vt240 ROM doesn't work. My vt220 ROM does work, but when I follow the instructions to 'press F3 to enter setup', nothing happens. I have also got the impression that some of the command line options for mame have changed over time, so some older information on the web may no longer be accurate. So, has anyone got this combination to work? If so, can they send me exact instructions on how to do it please. I hope that I am simply failing to do something that will become obvious with hindsight. My normal Linux system is CentOS 6, CentOS 7 or Fedora 31, but I also have Debian 10.1 available. I run several simulated VAX and PDP-11 instances using simh. Cheers Peter Allan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] MAME and simh
If something is emulating the hardware of a VT100, or the hardware of a VT240, what made you think you could run the VT220 firmware on it and expect anything meaningful to happen? Or am I totally missing what you are doing? Johnny On 2020-07-01 15:34, Peter Allan wrote: Hi folks, I am trying to get MAME to talk to simh in order to use MAME as a VT terminal emulator. However, I am failing to get the two to talk to each other. I have been using simh for over 10 years, but I only picked up MAME two days ago. I have tried MAME v 0.222 on Windows 10 and MAME v 0.208 on Debian 10.1. Both start up successfully, but I have trouble using them. I also have a set of 13 ROMs for several VT terminals. I have found some helpful information on the web, specifically https://zork.net/~st/jottings/Real-VT102-emulation-with-MAME.html and https://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/MAME_and_SIMH The latter page looks like it should be just what I am looking for, but it describes using a VT240 ROM. My vt240 ROM doesn't work. My vt220 ROM does work, but when I follow the instructions to 'press F3 to enter setup', nothing happens. I have also got the impression that some of the command line options for mame have changed over time, so some older information on the web may no longer be accurate. So, has anyone got this combination to work? If so, can they send me exact instructions on how to do it please. I hope that I am simply failing to do something that will become obvious with hindsight. My normal Linux system is CentOS 6, CentOS 7 or Fedora 31, but I also have Debian 10.1 available. I run several simulated VAX and PDP-11 instances using simh. Cheers Peter Allan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] Announcing RPM, a software package manager for RSX-11M-PLUS
Well, I already announced RPM before, so it's not really an announcement in that sense. However, I have been doing a lot of improvements, cleanup, and some documentation, to make it easier for people in the future. Some people might already have picked this up in the process of just staying updated, but for future reference, new users, and whatnot, I figured I should redo the announcement. So, for anyone running RSX-11M-PLUS (or MicroRSX) on their PDP-11 (and preferrably V4.6, but I think it will for the most part work equally fine with anything V4), RPM is a package manager that allows you to install and update lots of software on your system with a minimal amount of manual effort. The list of available packages is constantly increasing, and there is a web-page that describes the system in a little more detail, including how to bootstrap the whole thing. So, for anyone interested, please read http://mim.update.uu.se/rpm.htm, and if you have any questions, just reach out to me. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Making Ethernet DEC DELUA available to RSX11M+
Mark... On 2020-05-31 18:26, Mark Pizzolato wrote: Hi Phil, On Sunday, May 31, 2020 at 8:37 AM, Phil J Fisher wrote: All Following Mark P's feedback and comments, this is in many respects a re-submission of a previous poorly put together post. [...] This output shows what your configuration file did to the simulator setup. The important part for us to look at is the actual commands you used to achieve this. The configuration file you either explicitly (or implicitly by using a pdp11.ini) invoked the simulator with is required to provide visibility to how you got here! PLEASE provide that. Agreed. It might help to see what the actual commands are. Now I have deliberately not attached the XU device; I just want to make sure it is picked up by RSX11M+. I believe it should do so even if it then fails to do anything sensible. I get identical results when attached to a network (for details of attach, see later). When booted (via RL0), RSX11M+ fires up as expected. When I try to enable the network via NETINS.CMD, I see that it is not able to "install" the UNA-0 network device. NTL -- Config File -- Device UNA-0 Offline CNT$DF 0,120,174510,5,,NX NTINIT -- Failed To Load Line UNA-0 [...] Not attaching is not useful. How would RSX pick the ethernet if you don't have an ethernet? The configuration file I'm asking for above is "What did you do?". You also have not specified what type of traffic you expect to use the XU device to transport. DECnet, IP, LAT are possible candidates. You haven't described whether you will only be reaching out to other systems via the network interface or if you will also expect to have incoming functionality. These questions are specifically asking for "What you want to do?". Please answer them and we can help more! As shown above, he is trying to start DECnet (that is what NTL and NTINIT is about). So that information did come, even if not stated explicitly. However, RSX is not seeing any ethernet controller. It tries to probe the CSR and nothing shows. That is the basic problem. (There might be others as well, I wouldn't know...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Making Ethernet DEC DELUA available to RSX11M+
not attached
sim>
Now I have deliberately not attached the XU device; I just want to make
sure it is picked up by RSX11M+. I believe it should do so even if it then
fails to do anything sensible. I get identical results when attached to a
network (for details of attach, see later).
When booted (via RL0), RSX11M+ fires up as expected. When I try to enable
the network via NETINS.CMD, I see that it is not able to "install" the UNA-0
network device.
NTL -- Config File -- Device UNA-0 Offline
CNT$DF 0,120,174510,5,,NX
NTINIT -- Failed To Load Line UNA-0
Inspecting the RSX11M+ config shows:
RSX>
con dis attr
SYS
PDP-11/70, EIS,UNIBUS_Map,D-Space,SWR,Cache,FPP,
Clock=KW11-L, $TKPS=60., $TTPRM=02, Cache_control=01
LAA
Csr=170460, Vector=000340, Pri=05, Urm=01
YLA
Csr=177560, Vector=60, Pri=05, Urm=01
DLA
Csr=174400, Vector=000160, Pri=05, Urm=01
DUA
Csr=172150, Vector=000154, Pri=05, Urm=01
LPA
Csr=177514, Vector=000200, Pri=04, Urm=01
MUA
Csr=174500, Vector=000260, Pri=05, Urm=01
YZA
Csr=160100, Vector=000300, Pri=05, Urm=01
VF0:,Type=
VF1:,Type=
LA0:LAA0:
CO0:
TT0:YLA0:
TT1:YZA0:
TT2:YZA1:
TT3:YZA2:
TT4:YZA3:
TT5:YZA4:
TT6:YZA5:
TT7:YZA6:
TT10: YZA7:
VT0:
DL0:DLA0:,Type=RL02
DL1:DLA1:,Type=RL02
DL2:DLA2:,Type=RL02
DL3:DLA3:,Type=RL02
NL0:
DU0:DUA0:
DU1:DUA1:
DU2:DUA2:
DU3:DUA3:
LP0:LPA0:
MU0:MUA0:,Type=TU81
NN0:
NM0:
HT0:
HT1:
HT2:
HT3:
RT0:
RT1:
RT2:
RT3:
This seems to show that the device is not being seen by RSX11M+ at all since
there is no device information.
I also retried this having attached a network to the device XU0:
ETH-ATTACHED>
sim> attach xu0 eth2
Eth: opened OS device \Device\NPF_{EAE8073C-4368-41F5-9B70-77671D8038DE} -
WiFi
sim> sho xu0
XU0 attached to eth2
This gave exactly as far as I can tell the same results on booting RSX11M+
and running the NETINS command script.
If I am given guidance I can provide more information from SimH or from
RSX11M+.
I hope on this occasion I have provided the correct type of submission.
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
Simh mailing list
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http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [PiDP-11] Re: [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS --> Tcp/Ip?
Yes, this do simplify things even more.
All you need to do is a one time install of whatever package you want.
Then maintenance of an RSX system is essentially just a question of "RPM
ALL". However, a possible additional complication is that if TCP/IP have
been updated, you will want to do a reboot. So you need to somehow
detect if that happened. I have some ideas on how you could check for
that after updating, so that it can all be a bit more automated, but for
a start, the simple "RPM ALL" is essentially doing almost all the work
for you.
Johnny
On 2020-05-31 17:05, Mark Matlock wrote:
Johnny,
This is a very interesting development!! As someone who is updating about 6
RSX systems with your TCP/IP system on a roughly weekly basis this is of keen
interest to me. I like the idea of keeping the IPCONFIG separate from RPM since
the network configuration can be so customized especially with the HECnet over
IP capabilities.
This is really a revolutionary way to handle RSX software installation and
maintenance!
Thanks,
Mark
On May 31, 2020, at 9:54 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Ok. Thanks for inspiring me.
I now also have TCP/IP as a package under RPM.
A couple of comments about it are in place:
1) It's *big* You'll need atleast about 25.000 free blocks to install or
update. So nothing for anyone with an RL02 as the system disk.
2) It will do the install/update, but it will not start TCP/IP. You will still
need the separate scripts for TCP/IP in LB:[1,2]STARTUP.CMD in order to start
the whole thing. RPM can only be used for the updating of the system.
3) Because of some issues, RPM will also not be able to automatically handle any updates
to your IP configuration as such. So after doing an update of TCP/IP, you might want to
do that by hand, which is done by running "LB:[IP]IPCONFIG UPD". If you are
downloading the distribution itself, things runs just like before.
4) Depending on your internet connection, updating this package might take a
little while. I have also observed some issues with some sneaky FTP proxy
interfering with FTP transfers from MIM. If you are getting errors and timeouts
doing transfers over FTP, try changing the source to be mim.update.uu.se:10021
instead.
Johnny
On 2020-05-31 10:04, R. Voorhorst wrote:
Nice functionality to arrive so easily at a well-kept updated environment!
Big question now obviously appearing: will TCP/IP follow suit or is that not
so suitable concerning the host machine?
Thanks,
Reindert
-Original Message-
From: owner-hec...@update.uu.se [mailto:owner-hec...@update.uu.se] On Behalf Of
Johnny Billquist
Sent: Sunday, 31 May, 2020 02:24
To: Mark Matlock ; hec...@update.uu.se
Cc: info-pd...@dbit.com; SIMH ; [PiDP-11]
Subject: Re: [PiDP-11] Re: [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager
for RSX-11M-PLUS
On 2020-05-30 22:04, Mark Matlock wrote:
On May 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Since I'm on a roll today, I figure I should announce the availability of a new
tool for RSX, which I think most hobbyists will find rather useful.
RPM is a packet manager for RSX (it has nothing to do with the Red Hat Packet
Manager, except the name).
Johnny,
I love not only the new RPM software repository tool but also all the
updated software tools. A few of the software packages that RPM listed were
even new to me!
You're welcome. And have have *lots* of more software. It will just take a lot
of time to work through it all and create packages for it.
Also, I was behind in getting the latest versions of your NEMA, MKE and
several others. This will make it very easy to stay current.
Similar problem to my own... What version did I now have on that machine? Did I
do any updates since I last installed there? What software do I actually have?
And where is it...?
Thanks for this and also thanks for the latest version of your TCP/IP
system.
Happy to provide it. And it looks like it has already seen some action, based
on the ftp logs at MIM... :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
Simh mailing list
Simh@trailing-edge.com
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [PiDP-11] Re: [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS --> Tcp/Ip?
Ok. Thanks for inspiring me. I now also have TCP/IP as a package under RPM. A couple of comments about it are in place: 1) It's *big* You'll need atleast about 25.000 free blocks to install or update. So nothing for anyone with an RL02 as the system disk. 2) It will do the install/update, but it will not start TCP/IP. You will still need the separate scripts for TCP/IP in LB:[1,2]STARTUP.CMD in order to start the whole thing. RPM can only be used for the updating of the system. 3) Because of some issues, RPM will also not be able to automatically handle any updates to your IP configuration as such. So after doing an update of TCP/IP, you might want to do that by hand, which is done by running "LB:[IP]IPCONFIG UPD". If you are downloading the distribution itself, things runs just like before. 4) Depending on your internet connection, updating this package might take a little while. I have also observed some issues with some sneaky FTP proxy interfering with FTP transfers from MIM. If you are getting errors and timeouts doing transfers over FTP, try changing the source to be mim.update.uu.se:10021 instead. Johnny On 2020-05-31 10:04, R. Voorhorst wrote: Nice functionality to arrive so easily at a well-kept updated environment! Big question now obviously appearing: will TCP/IP follow suit or is that not so suitable concerning the host machine? Thanks, Reindert -Original Message- From: owner-hec...@update.uu.se [mailto:owner-hec...@update.uu.se] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Sunday, 31 May, 2020 02:24 To: Mark Matlock ; hec...@update.uu.se Cc: info-pd...@dbit.com; SIMH ; [PiDP-11] Subject: Re: [PiDP-11] Re: [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS On 2020-05-30 22:04, Mark Matlock wrote: On May 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Since I'm on a roll today, I figure I should announce the availability of a new tool for RSX, which I think most hobbyists will find rather useful. RPM is a packet manager for RSX (it has nothing to do with the Red Hat Packet Manager, except the name). Johnny, I love not only the new RPM software repository tool but also all the updated software tools. A few of the software packages that RPM listed were even new to me! You're welcome. And have have *lots* of more software. It will just take a lot of time to work through it all and create packages for it. Also, I was behind in getting the latest versions of your NEMA, MKE and several others. This will make it very easy to stay current. Similar problem to my own... What version did I now have on that machine? Did I do any updates since I last installed there? What software do I actually have? And where is it...? Thanks for this and also thanks for the latest version of your TCP/IP system. Happy to provide it. And it looks like it has already seen some action, based on the ftp logs at MIM... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [PiDP-11] Re: [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS --> Tcp/Ip?
You mean if TCP/IP should be distributed using RPM? It's a possibility for sure. I haven't thought much about it, but in fact, it could be an easy way for people to get updates. Let me think a bit, and look at it. :-) Johnny On 2020-05-31 10:04, R. Voorhorst wrote: Nice functionality to arrive so easily at a well-kept updated environment! Big question now obviously appearing: will TCP/IP follow suit or is that not so suitable concerning the host machine? Thanks, Reindert -Original Message- From: owner-hec...@update.uu.se [mailto:owner-hec...@update.uu.se] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Sunday, 31 May, 2020 02:24 To: Mark Matlock ; hec...@update.uu.se Cc: info-pd...@dbit.com; SIMH ; [PiDP-11] Subject: Re: [PiDP-11] Re: [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS On 2020-05-30 22:04, Mark Matlock wrote: On May 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Since I'm on a roll today, I figure I should announce the availability of a new tool for RSX, which I think most hobbyists will find rather useful. RPM is a packet manager for RSX (it has nothing to do with the Red Hat Packet Manager, except the name). Johnny, I love not only the new RPM software repository tool but also all the updated software tools. A few of the software packages that RPM listed were even new to me! You're welcome. And have have *lots* of more software. It will just take a lot of time to work through it all and create packages for it. Also, I was behind in getting the latest versions of your NEMA, MKE and several others. This will make it very easy to stay current. Similar problem to my own... What version did I now have on that machine? Did I do any updates since I last installed there? What software do I actually have? And where is it...? Thanks for this and also thanks for the latest version of your TCP/IP system. Happy to provide it. And it looks like it has already seen some action, based on the ftp logs at MIM... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [PiDP-11] Re: [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS
On 2020-05-30 22:04, Mark Matlock wrote: On May 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Since I'm on a roll today, I figure I should announce the availability of a new tool for RSX, which I think most hobbyists will find rather useful. RPM is a packet manager for RSX (it has nothing to do with the Red Hat Packet Manager, except the name). Johnny, I love not only the new RPM software repository tool but also all the updated software tools. A few of the software packages that RPM listed were even new to me! You're welcome. And have have *lots* of more software. It will just take a lot of time to work through it all and create packages for it. Also, I was behind in getting the latest versions of your NEMA, MKE and several others. This will make it very easy to stay current. Similar problem to my own... What version did I now have on that machine? Did I do any updates since I last installed there? What software do I actually have? And where is it...? Thanks for this and also thanks for the latest version of your TCP/IP system. Happy to provide it. And it looks like it has already seen some action, based on the ftp logs at MIM... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] [HECnet] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS
And I need to make a quick correction to the instructions: When the RPM.PKG file have been downloaded, you need to do the following three lines: LBR RPM=RPM.PKG/EX:LIB LBR RPM=RPM.PKG/EX:RPM LBR CONFIG=RPM.PKG/EX:CONFIG Johnny On 2020-05-30 17:38, Johnny Billquist wrote: Since I'm on a roll today, I figure I should announce the availability of a new tool for RSX, which I think most hobbyists will find rather useful. RPM is a packet manager for RSX (it has nothing to do with the Red Hat Packet Manager, except the name). Over the years, I have found it becoming an ever growing hassle to manually download, build and install all the different tools that I am used to have on different systems. Not to mention the headaches when trying to help others and providing software for them as well. RPM is an attempt at automating this, and making more software available for all people with a small effort. I hope it will also help in getting more people on to the actual latest version of various tools. Historically, much software like this was distributed through DECUS, and the various symposium tapes tried to distribute updates, but it was a very fragmented world, where parallel development often happened, based on different versions. RPM will now allow people to see what is the actual latest version around, and if they want to work on something, they can do that based on this. RPM is by no means perfect, and in fact are missing a whole bunch of things, but it is now at a stage where it is actually usable and useful, so therefore I'm doing this announcement now. RPM is essentially a tool to track what software is available and what software is installed. It can install and remove software, and it can update it to new versions when new versions become available. It can also be involved as a part of the boot process to automatically install any tasks that are part of installed packages. It can fetch information both over DECnet and TCP/IP, and is written in IND, and uses cleartext configuration and status files, and packages are universal libraries. Feel free to contact me about any issues, problems, wishes, or whatever. I can't guarantee that anything gets down, but there is always a bigger chance if I know about it. The software is also freely available, and contributions from others are also very welcome. So, with that presentation done, here are the practical details: To use RPM, you need to fetch one file to your machine: RPM.PKG. It can be found at: HECnet: MIM::LB:[RPM]RPM.PKG Inetnet: ftp://r...@mim.update.uu.se/rpm.pkg Once you have downloaded that file, you need to extract two files, using the following commands: LBR RPM=RPM.PKG/EX:RPM LBR CONFIG=RPM.PKG/EX:CONFIG After that, edit CONFIG.CMD using your favorite editor. The file should contain enough explanation and examples for what you need to setup. After you've done that editing, give the command: @RPM FETCH this will setup the list of what packages are available. After that, you can do @RPM LIST to show what packages there are. It's not necessary, but I would recommend the next thing is: @RPM INSTALL RPM this moves the RPM package manager itself under control of RPM, so that you automatically get new improvements installed when they are available. Of course, you can then download packages (@RPM FETCH pkg), get information about packages (@RPM INFO pkg), install packages (@RPM INSTALL pkg), or just update them (@RPM UPDATE pkg). However, apart from the INSTALL option, to just install those packages you really would like to have, the most used option will probably be "ALL", which does a fetch of the latest package list, and then updates any packages that should be updated. You could in fact just place that in a batch file to be run once in a while, and have your software updated all the time without having to think about it. Or else, just once in a while do a @RPM FETCH @RPM LIST to see which packages have new updates available, and then you can just update the ones you want to. Finally, it is possible to run without giving any option/command at all, in which case RPM goes into interactive mode, with a menu showing what you can do. It is also possible to run from the command line with multiple commands. Each command should be separated from the others using "+" in that case. For example: @RPM FETCH+LIST As for what packages are available - I have started making some available that I have been using and working on for many years. I have plenty more software that I will make available. If anyone else have software they would like to make available, I can provide some quick information on how you create your own packages as well, and I can also host packages from other people at Mim. Also, for the time being, I have mostly focused on binary packages with executables. I can certainly see that eventually I would also do packages for the sources of
[Simh] Announcing RPM, a software packet manager for RSX-11M-PLUS
Mim, and are usually readable by
anyone. Ask me if you have any questions, and for the most part, all of
the software is freely available in sources as well.
Also, the binaries are built for RSX-11M-PLUS. While some might work on
11M as well, I have not tried this, nor am I going to try and handle it.
There could also be an issue with some software if installed on older
versions of RSX-11M-PLUS (before V4.0). I would think it should mostly
work, but will not make any guarantees about that either. (If anyone
really is running such old versions, they should update to a newer
version of RSX instead).
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
Simh mailing list
Simh@trailing-edge.com
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS
Time for a new release announcement of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. Highlights: . Improvements to TCP performance. . Bugfixes and improvements for DNS/mDNS. . RSX security improvement. Detailed information on things that have been done since the last release: TCP: . Bugfix in longword arithmetic condition code setup. This affected performance and stability of TCP communication. . Improved TCP retransmit logic. TCP now better handles when retransmitting, and getting an acknowledge of parts of the data. previously, this could lead to very long retransmit times. DNS/mDNS: . Bugfix in DNS resolver. Possible stack corruption in some situation. . Added MDNS as a separate resolver type. . Bugfix in resolver. mDNS reverse lookups were not responded to. . Bugfix in resolver. Resolver could fail to join multicast group at startup. . Improved DNS timeout handling. If trying to resolve an ambiguous name only do local lookup if global lookup fails. FTP: . Bugfix in FTP. If user failed to log in, FTP client got out of sync with server. . Improve FTP client. Exit with status reflecting state in FTP session. MAILD: . Added a possibility to have an SMTP relay for all outgoing mail. Installation: . Improved installation process, and added IP configuration for mDNS and UTC offset for NTP. RSX: . Bugfix in RSX. INS did not properly set uic if /UIC was given. Some additional notes: As usual, I would recommend people to update as soon as possible. The changes are not critical, but will lead to a much better experience. For the RSX fixes to be applied, it is necessary to answer yes to the question about installing RSX patches. Otherwise those fixes will not be installed. This does not lead to any failures, but it might lead to some components running exactly the way you might be expecting (such as daemons running under the wrong user). As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk (As an additional note, I have become aware of that there is some device proxying access to the ftp service at Mim. This might lead to failure to transfer large files. If you observe such problems, try connecting to Mim at port 10021 instead, which is an alternative port for the ftp server, and which circumvents the proxy.) The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc I hope people find this update useful. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Printing to a pdf
You know, a2ps have been around for ages, which takes any normal ascii text and gives you a postscript file. Very commonly used in all kind of printing filters as well. And, as you noted, going from ps to pdf can easily be done with various tools, including ghostscript... Johnny On 2020-05-26 19:02, Ken Cornetet wrote: Years ago I needed to do something similar. What I did was to write a simple shell script to turn my text into HTML, then run it through html2ps, then run the resulting postscript through ghostscript to get PDF. I recall that other than being a bit clunky, it worked really well – and my text to HTML script could throw in some nice embellishments to the resulting document. *From:* Simh *On Behalf Of *Johan *Sent:* Monday, May 25, 2020 5:38 AM *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com *Subject:* [Simh] Printing to a pdf ***ATTENTION: This message was received from an EXTERNAL source.*** Hi, I am having fun with my virtual VAX. Thanks to SIMH, its a wonderfull experience to have a VAX at home. Now, I have a question. Is there a way to print to a pdf ? like a script running in Linux (the host) who intercepts the LPT output and creates a pdf ? Johan The Netherlands. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] xterm and simh
On 2020-05-16 20:12, Paul Koning wrote: On May 16, 2020, at 11:06 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sounds like your problem is that TPU thinks your terminal understands 8-bit control characters, while it actually doesn't. If VMS is like RSTS, there is an "8 bit characters" setting but no separate 8-bit controls setting, and presumably programs assume the former implies the latter. After all, it does with DEC's terminals. Both RSX and VMS actually separates 8 bit characters from 8 bit control... Ctrl+Left click should show a menu entry "8-bit controls", which is the corresponding thing on the xterm side. However, to properly answer your question, we'd need to know a lot more about your environment. And it's a bit hard to even ask the right questions here, because xterm is so flexible that you can accomplish a lot of stuff in multiple ways, and you might not even know what you are doing... And VMS tries to figure out what your terminal is, and depending on various details, xterm will identify in different ways, which is what VMS then base its settings on... As Johnny also pointed out, be sure not to have xterm set for UTF-8. Not just because of 8-bit controls, but also because DEC applications are unlikely to know about it; they normally assume DEC MCS (a.k.a., DEC Std 169). Latin-1 is a good approximation though not identical. Right. UFT-8 essentially is only "compatible" with 7-bit ascii. Anything that uses the high bit, like DEC MCS, or Latin-1, or any other ISO 8859 encoding, will cause craziness if you are using UTF-8 somewhere. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] xterm and simh
Oh, and if you are using UTF-8, you are very screwed. Johnny On 2020-05-16 17:06, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sounds like your problem is that TPU thinks your terminal understands 8-bit control characters, while it actually doesn't. Ctrl+Left click should show a menu entry "8-bit controls", which is the corresponding thing on the xterm side. However, to properly answer your question, we'd need to know a lot more about your environment. And it's a bit hard to even ask the right questions here, because xterm is so flexible that you can accomplish a lot of stuff in multiple ways, and you might not even know what you are doing... And VMS tries to figure out what your terminal is, and depending on various details, xterm will identify in different ways, which is what VMS then base its settings on... Johnny On 2020-05-16 16:34, Peter Allan wrote: I am trying to configure xterm to work as closely as possible to a real VT terminal when connected to a simulated microVAX 3900 on simh. I have this mostly working, but one thing that is annoying me is the display of characters in the xterm window when editing a file with EDIT/TPU. When I edit a file with EDIT/EDT, the screen displays what I would expect for EDT. However, when I edit a file with EDIT/TPU, I get a lot of garage characters on the screen and it is unusable while in the editor. Pressing cntl-Z exits the editor and the screen is fine again. I have found that if I type SET TERM/NOEIGHT before using EDIT/TPU, then it works fine. The annoying thing is that if I type SET TERM/INQUIRE then it sets the terminal to EIGHTBIT mode, and this happens when I log in. I can easily change the login command procedure to set the terminal to NOEIGHTBIT when I log in, but does anyone know how to configure xterm so that is not an issue in the first place? To reiterate, this is a problem with the display of characters on the screen of the xterm window, not an issue with the mapping of keys. Cheers Peter Allan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] xterm and simh
Sounds like your problem is that TPU thinks your terminal understands 8-bit control characters, while it actually doesn't. Ctrl+Left click should show a menu entry "8-bit controls", which is the corresponding thing on the xterm side. However, to properly answer your question, we'd need to know a lot more about your environment. And it's a bit hard to even ask the right questions here, because xterm is so flexible that you can accomplish a lot of stuff in multiple ways, and you might not even know what you are doing... And VMS tries to figure out what your terminal is, and depending on various details, xterm will identify in different ways, which is what VMS then base its settings on... Johnny On 2020-05-16 16:34, Peter Allan wrote: I am trying to configure xterm to work as closely as possible to a real VT terminal when connected to a simulated microVAX 3900 on simh. I have this mostly working, but one thing that is annoying me is the display of characters in the xterm window when editing a file with EDIT/TPU. When I edit a file with EDIT/EDT, the screen displays what I would expect for EDT. However, when I edit a file with EDIT/TPU, I get a lot of garage characters on the screen and it is unusable while in the editor. Pressing cntl-Z exits the editor and the screen is fine again. I have found that if I type SET TERM/NOEIGHT before using EDIT/TPU, then it works fine. The annoying thing is that if I type SET TERM/INQUIRE then it sets the terminal to EIGHTBIT mode, and this happens when I log in. I can easily change the login command procedure to set the terminal to NOEIGHTBIT when I log in, but does anyone know how to configure xterm so that is not an issue in the first place? To reiterate, this is a problem with the display of characters on the screen of the xterm window, not an issue with the mapping of keys. Cheers Peter Allan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] vax780 bare metal - rq addresses --> rq registers
Oh, and yes, there might be issues with 32 bit access, since the Unibus is only 16 bits wide. Also, you might need to enable the Unibus adapter before you can get to anything sitting on it. I can't remember the details, but the documentation for the Unibus adapter (DW780) is also on the net, so you just have to look it up... Johnny On 2020-05-14 02:18, Johnny Billquist wrote: It's a little complicated, because the controller is on the Unibus, and the Unibus only have an 18-bit address space. So the SBI Unibus adapter contains a mapping between the VAX address space, and the Unibus address space, and the UBA also contains mapping for DMA, which must be set up before playing around. So there are layers you need to go through. Also, the MSCP controllers only actually have two registers on the bus, and they are only really used for anything more advanced than just getting the attention of the controller at initialization. After that, all communication happens through buffers. Johnny On 2020-05-14 02:14, Mike Stramba wrote: What is the relationship / mapping between the addresses displayed for the SHOW RQ (disk controller) command and the listed registers in the vax780 manual ? E.g SA, S1DAT, CQBA etc ? i.e. Does the SA register appear / is accessed at 2013F468 ? S1DAT at 2013F46A etc ? If so, are those addresses not accessible with EXamine / Deposit ? sim> ex 2013F468 Address space exceeded Only from an instruction ? : e.g. MOVW R0,2013F468 sh rq RQ address=2013F468-2013F46B, vector=1FC*, BR5, UDA50, 4 units . ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] vax780 bare metal - rq addresses --> rq registers
It's a little complicated, because the controller is on the Unibus, and the Unibus only have an 18-bit address space. So the SBI Unibus adapter contains a mapping between the VAX address space, and the Unibus address space, and the UBA also contains mapping for DMA, which must be set up before playing around. So there are layers you need to go through. Also, the MSCP controllers only actually have two registers on the bus, and they are only really used for anything more advanced than just getting the attention of the controller at initialization. After that, all communication happens through buffers. Johnny On 2020-05-14 02:14, Mike Stramba wrote: What is the relationship / mapping between the addresses displayed for the SHOW RQ (disk controller) command and the listed registers in the vax780 manual ? E.g SA, S1DAT, CQBA etc ? i.e. Does the SA register appear / is accessed at 2013F468 ? S1DAT at 2013F46A etc ? If so, are those addresses not accessible with EXamine / Deposit ? sim> ex 2013F468 Address space exceeded Only from an instruction ? : e.g. MOVW R0,2013F468 sh rq RQ address=2013F468-2013F46B, vector=1FC*, BR5, UDA50, 4 units . ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] More issues with RSX11M
You have some special masochistic wish since you're doing 11M instead of M+, and a rather old version at that...? :-) On 2020-05-12 16:33, Phil J FIsher wrote: Following a recent post (where people were good enough to point me at the "missing links" so to write) I have SYSGENd a RSX11M system on a PDP11/70 SimH setup. However, in following the V3.2 RSX11M System Generation guide, chapter 10 indicates there should be a command file (SAM.CMD) available in UIC [2,300] to verify the generated and running system. Unfortunately, my set of RL01 distribution media for V3.2 does not seem to have this file or any other files in that UIC. Searching via Mr. Goggle has not brought up anything useful for this (but some old correspondence from Johnny Bilquist on someone's real 11/73 RSX was interesting a few years back ...). You need the right pack. With RL distributions, you should have four disk packs... I can't tell for sure which one is supposed to hold SAM.CMD, but it might be EXCSRC. My question is to whether anyone knows how to obtain this file (and any necessary additional files implied) and if so, where I can download from? I have checked the media I have and it does not seem to exist on any of the four disk images I have for V3.2. It is clearly possible, since I am no longer as good with stuff as I used to be, that it is there somewhere but extensive checking of file listings has failed to find it. My thanks to all who replied to my post about the missing links. Good luck. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] vmb.exe - info - source code ? / vax (no O.S.) disk programming
On 2020-05-12 16:23, Mike Stramba wrote: What is the "story" with vmb.exe ? Is there source code for it ? If not, why not ? VMB is the boot firmware for VAXen. For some models it is loaded from disk, for most it's in EEPROM or flash storage on the machine. Source code was never, as far as I know, made available. It's just a boot loader. Noone ever modified it, or had use for it in any other context than on a VAX in the first place, and it already was on the VAX. So nobody really felt even a need... Is it "abandon ware" ? Not really. It's owned by HP. I'm interested in seeing how it does "raw disk" access. Uh? Why? Do you expect it to do something particular that any OS wouldn't? I haven't got a proper clue, but I would also suspect it's either written in MACRO-32 or Bliss. You like reading that? I have MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual AA-L619A-TK Version 1.2 and EK-UDA50-UG-002_UDA50_Users_Guide_Oct82.pdf Are there any other relevant docs ? If you want to know how to talk MSCP, why don't you just look at the device drivers for NetBSD or something? You already have the code there, which in combination with the documents you possess should be more than enough, and then you'll have code in C, which might be easier to read... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] OpenVMS time conversion routines
If you are writing in C, then even if the machine is 32 bits, the C language will normally give you a 64-bit integer data type, so you should be able to do this really easily, and portable. The biggest question when it comes to portability would be byte ordering... In fairly modern C: int64_t in older: long long Johnny On 2020-05-07 07:28, Baker, Lawrence M wrote: Does anyone know of any portable OpenVMS 64-bit time conversion routines written in C? I.e., that do not depend on 64-bit data types so they run on 32-bit machines? Maybe in the SIMH GitHub? Out there in the Interland? I am writing a simtools converter that combines on-disk OpenVMS Backup save sets into a SIMH .tap image of an OpenVMS Backup ANSI tape volume. I want to use the date the backup was done from the Backup save set header for the ANSI HDR1 Creation Date. You might ask why? Lately I have had to restore Backup save sets stored on our NFS file server to SIMH VAXes over a DECnet/DAP-to-NFS gateway I built a number of years ago. (I wrote to this group about it in a thread about RSTS/E 10.1-L and Paper tape on January 6, 2016.) It takes about 2 days to restore an ~8GB disk image backup from the NFS server, though the gateway running on an SheevaPlug ARM SoC, to the SIMH VAX running on my desktop iMac. I am working from home at the moment, of course. I have become good friends with GNU screen because of SSH inactivity disconnects and VPN failures. When I tried to restore a 75GB disk, expecting it to take 10-14 days, our "friendly" IT security monsters rebooted my iMac on me after 4 days. Grrr. I want to try breaking the NFS file server transfer step from the SIMH VAX restore operation. OpenVMS is not so easy as RSX was to read /FOREIGN disk drives as files. I could not figure out a way to just MOUNT a Backup save set as a SIMH disk image and get that to work. I was able to use Mark's tar2mt converter and, using the proper OpenVMS MOUNT /RECORDSIZE and /BLOCKSIZE qualfiers, was able to read a Backup save set from an unlabeled tape image. Labeled tapes are easier to use then unlabeled tapes, since the file names and file formats are on the tape with the file data. I know how to write ANSI tape labels, so I have taken it upon myself as a challenge to write a converter. I think this is the last piece I need for what I want it to do. I'll certainly announce it when it is done. Thank you in advance for your help. Larry Baker US Geological Survey 650-329-5608 ba...@usgs.gov ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS
Time for a new release announcement of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. Highlights: . Added IGMP . mDNS have been implemented . Bug fixes and enchanced functionality in UDP . Performance and stability improvements in TCP . Improved Multinet driver . Stability improvements in HTTP with CGI . Bugfix for FTP/FTPD regarding files with implied CRLF . Improved SPOOF handling of blocking whole subnets Detailed information on things that have been done since the last release: IP: . Added ability to not loopback broadcast or multicast packets. IGMP: . Added IGMP protocol handler. UDP: . Added ability to not loopback broadcast or multicast packets. . Bugfix. The multicast related functions would crash the system if the argument had an odd address. TCP: . Improved fast retransmit logic, which did not work right. . Improved TCP probe handling. . Bugfix. If large amounts of data was being sent in PU.TXT mode, and the data consisted of all NULs, the system could crash. mDNS: . mDNS have been implemented. Multinet: . The Multinet driver have been redesigned to improve compatibility with VMS. PING: . Added /NOLOOPBACK switch to avoid loopback of broadcast or multicast packets. NETSTAT: . Added the switch IGMP among the other statistics switches, and output. HTTPD: . Bugfix: The CGI handling could leave the HTTP task hung forever for some badly formed requests. FTP/FTPD: . Bugfix. If a file was transferred in binary mode, and had attribute implied CR+LF, the CR+LF was lost. SPOOF: . Improved SPOOF detector to better block whole netblocks. Some additional notes: For people who don't know what mDNS is, it is a way of resolving host names to IP addresses on a local network without having to setup any DNS server. It works by using the special domain ".local". So if you have a machine called "foo", and your machines are all mDNS capable, you can reach the machine "foo", by addressing it as "foo.local" on your local network. No additional configuration is needed. This is all part of the IP zero configuration framework. As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc I hope people find this update useful. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VMS Hobbyist Licenses
Yes, of course. If not, how would you ever be able to enter a license? Console login can always be done. Johnny On 2020-03-25 23:10, Jonathan Welch wrote: I fired up my simh VMS system for the first time in a few weeks only to see I was getting expired license messages. Even with VAX-VMS expired I could log in with my own account to OPA0. On Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 10:29 AM Robert Thomas <mailto:r...@asthomas.com>> wrote: The potential real revenue stream from VAX users with hobbyist licenses is small, but HPE should be able to put a significant dollar value on the Good Will generated by issuing perpetual licenses. __ __ Historically the sales and marketing people at DEC, COMPAQ, HP and HPE have placed no value on customer loyalty and good will. Too many of their marketing decisions have been short sighted killing the cash cow that users created using the various flavors of RSX on PDP-11’s and VMS on VAXen, AXP and Itanium. __ __ Sincerely, Robert F. Thomas *A. S. Thomas, Inc.* 44 Industrial Way Norwood, MA USA 02062 (Office Phone - (781) 329-9200 *mail to: r...@asthomas.com <mailto:r...@asthomas.com> __ __ ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Ultrix 2.2 and 3.0
Did you specify that you wanted /usr on ra0? It certainly looks like it is missing which partition it should be on. Disk partitions would normally be specified as a letter after the unit number. So ra0d, for example. The message "on partition of the system disk, ra0." looks like there is a missing letter between the two spaces after "partition". And of course, /dev/rra0 don't exist. The whole disk would be /dev/rra0c, if we're talking the block device, or /dev/ra0c for the character device. But newfs would normally be wanting to operate on the block device. Johnny On 2020-03-24 20:49, Ray Jewhurst wrote: 2.2 and 2.0 went without a hitch but I had to change the disk size to ra82. I tried 3.0 using the 2.0 standalone boot and it got all the way to partitioning the usr and then it gave me this error. Making the new file system for /usr on /dev/rra0 RA81 newfs: /dev/rra0: No such file or directory The newfs command failed to construct the /usr file system on partition of the system disk, ra0. This error causes the installation procedure to stop. One possible cause for the error is a corrupt system disk. You may want to replace or use another system disk, and begin the installation again. If this error message appears a second time, contact a DIGITAL representative. # Also, unlike 2.x and 4.x it never asked me what kind of install I wanted to do, Basic or Advanced. Thanks, Ray On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:30 PM Henry Bent <mailto:henry.r.b...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 13:11, Ray Jewhurst mailto:raywjewhu...@gmail.com>> wrote: I also tried the Microvax II and I got the same error. I lo and behold read the documentation and saw that the 3900 was not supported so I tried the II right away. Ray On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:07 PM Henry Bent mailto:henry.r.b...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 08:47, Ray Jewhurst mailto:raywjewhu...@gmail.com>> wrote: I have the Ultrix 2.2 and 3.0 tapes both supported and unsupported from Bitsavers, but I don't know how to mount/boot them. I was attempting to use the install script for Ultrix 4.0 from Gunkies. Also, I am using the vax (3900) simulator. When I mount the 2.2 tape as a TK50 this is the error I get: >>>b mua0 (BOOT/R5:0 MUA0 2.. -MUA0 1..0.. ?50 SCB2NDINT, MUA0 HALT instruction, PC: 0C1A (MOVL (R11),SP) sim> And here's my ini: set cpu 16m set tto 7b set tti 7b set cr dis set lpt dis set rl dis set rq0 ra81 att rq0 ultrix.dsk set rq1 dis set rq2 dis set rq3 dis set ts dis set tq tk50 att tq0 ultrix22.tap set tq1 dis set tq2 dis set tq3 dis ;set xq dis ;att xq 1 att nvr ultrix.nvr ;dep bdr 0 boot cpu Any suggestions? Well, problem #1 is that you're trying to run those operating systems on unsupported hardware. I don't remember when 3900 support was added off the top of my head but probably not until some version of 3.1 or 4.0. I would try with the Microvax II sim and see where that gets you. -Henry Ultrix 2.2 doesn't boot from the distribution tape, it boots from a standalone "boot" tape. What you want is http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix/2.0/AQ-JU00C-BE_ULTRIX-32_2.0_SA_87.tap.gz which, despite its name and the directory it is placed in, is the TK50 boot tape for Ultrix 2.2. Boot from that. I honestly don't remember how I installed 3.0 as the standalone boot tape is missing. If you can install and get comfortable with 2.2, and if you can install the 2.3 patch successfully, let me know and I'll try and remember how to get 3.0 up on SIMH. You should read http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/vax/ultrix-32/3.0/AA-LY24A-TE_ULTRIX-32_BasicInst_Microvax3300_1988.pdf ; I do not recall the install process being significantly different between 2.x and 3.0. -Henry ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
On 2020-03-23 22:32, Clem Cole wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:57 PM Johnny Billquist <mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote: The VAX-11/750 used 2901 though... 750 was made out of custom CMOS gate arrays. The main adder was analyzed as part of my thesis [long story - not for here, but a very clever circuit. I would later get to know the guy that did it]. Now that you say it, it rings a bell. I must totally be mixing the 750 and 730 up... Also, I know that there was an Intel 808x processor (85 I think) that shipped in the 750, but it was not an FEP. It was limited to running the cartridge tape controller. I don't remember how the console serial port was done (the 780 it was part of the FEP). The 750 microcode did the boot as someone else pointed out. I've forgotten how the microcode was loaded on a cold start. I thought there was something in a ROM/EPROM, but I've forgotten. I do know the cartridge tape unit was needed to update the microcode and that was the only way to do it. But I don't remember you need to have the tape on a cold reboot the like floppies on a 780, but I could have forgotten. Looking a bit at the documentation, both the console and the TU58 are run directly by the VAX CPU. They are both just serial ports anyhow, so not much to do for either, actually. The microcode is in ROM, so not loaded at all. But there was a bit of patch ram available to correct bugs in the microcode. And NetBSD still have that microcode patch file in the distribution. It originally came with Ultrix, I believe. And if NetBSD boots on an 11/750, it will patch the microcode. But I don't know what the patches actually fix. Maybe someone else knows... Not sure if you could update the full microcode on the machine. I haven't seen anything suggesting it is possible in the documentation... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 750 and 730 (was Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?)
Bob, are we talking microcode source or binaries here? I certainly have the binaries for the 86x0. I also previously pointed you to a person who had put at least the source for (I think) the I-box microcode for the 86x0 on the net, and he had more that he hadn't scanned... Johnny On 2020-03-23 20:16, Bob Supnik wrote: One of the problems with simulating the non-VLSI VAXen, other than the 780, is that the microcode is not available. Back at DEC, I had the 730 microcode in a huge notebook (it was 16KW), but I discarded it when I moved out of Hudson and downsized my document collection. We really need the microcode for the 750, 730, 8600/8650, 8200 (V11), and 8800. The various microcodes may be available in the DEC fiche collection at CHM, but I haven't been able to get out there to do the research, and travel is out of the question right now. /Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
On 2020-03-23 19:36, Paul Koning wrote: On the VAX 730: as far as I'm aware it's the only VAX built out of standard LSI CPU components. The guts of the CPU is AMD 2901 bit-slice chips. All other DEC microprogrammed machines I can think of had their own purpose-designed logic. I was pretty sure the VAX-11/780 was standard TTL stuff. Not even any 2901 in there. The VAX-11/750 used 2901 though... 730 I don't know, but I would assume 2901 there too. The 86x0 is way more complex with lots of ECL... But I could of course be confused about all this (as usual). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
On 2020-03-23 19:29, Ethan Dicks wrote: On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:30 PM Robert Armstrong wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: The memory bus on the VAX-11/750 is the same as for the MK11 box for the PDP-11/70, and they shared some memory cards. Same memory was used on the 730 too. The 730 memory cards were always 1MB though - never saw any other size. Yes. The 11/70 supported the 256K cards only, the 11/750 supported either the 256K cards or the 1MB cards (early 11/750s lacked one address wire on the memory bus - I added it to our machine S/N BT354), and the 11/730 (and 11/725!) supported only the 1MB cards, but I don't know if that was because of memory controller limitations or because you could only stuff 5 cards in the box and 1.25MB wasn't enough to run VMS. Actually, there are also 64K cards. But with 256K cards, one MK11 is enough to fully populate the memory of an 11/70. So there was no obvious need to make the MK11 capable of taking larger cards. However, that did not prevent some from doing a hardware hack to allow the MK11 to use 1M cards. I used to run an 11/70 with that about 25 years ago. But it requires a small custom PCB to be made and inserted into the MK11. I would suspect for the 11/730, it might just have assumed that it was 1M cards. Makes the logic a bit simpler, since you then know how to address each card with very simple decoding. I don't know the actual number of physical address bits implemented on the 730, but as a practical matter 5x 1Mb cards was the most you could fit in the chassis. I remember looking into this a few years back - ISTR the PALs only generate 5 memory select lines (that go to each memory-capable slot) and there were no unused pins on that PAL. It seems possible to rework this, but I don't think it would be a trivial mod. An 8MB 11/730 wouldn't be all that much better than a 5MB 11/730. Some. I remember using ours as mostly a single-user machine in the late 80s because by the time a third person logged in, it started swapping like a fiend. Obviously with more memory, it would swap less. But since the machine is slow as molass anyway, and if you were to add more card select lines, you also would need a larger backplane, which is definitely non-trivial, I very much doubt the point of ever doing this... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
On 2020-03-23 17:58, Robert Armstrong wrote: I think the 11/750 might have had an 8085 as well. I'm pretty sure the 750's console functions were implemented in microcode. It was the only one of the "big" VAXes that didn't have a separate "computer" as the front end. Quotations used because the 730 wasn't all that big and an 8085 is not much of a computer. You're probably right. Took a quick peek at some documents, and couldn't find anything like a microprocessor in there. Two other fun facts I know about the 11/750: This was the only VAX for many years that actually used a boot block on disks. All other VAXen had the FE provide VMB for the VAX, so that booting was handled through VMB. The memory bus on the VAX-11/750 is the same as for the MK11 box for the PDP-11/70, and they shared some memory cards. However, the MK11 never handled larger than 256K cards, while the VAX-11/750 was extended to handle 1MB cards, and eventually even had a 4MB card that could be used. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
On 2020-03-23 16:35, Bob Eager wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:10:17 -0700 "Robert Armstrong" wrote: FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA: failed unibus address register); perhaps it was used in the 730 as well. The 730 certainly had a UBA; don?t know if had a specific "FUBAR" register though. But as far as a physical bar inside the chassis I've never seen nor heard of anything like that. I have a 730 in the garage and it doesn't have any such thing. The 730 fit into a single 10-1/2" chassis anyway, so there wasn't even a specific cabinet or rack dedicated to the 730. And the 730 chassis was basically the same box as was used for the 11/44, but with a somewhat different backplane. I suspect the "FUBAR" at Dan's high school may have been a local joke :) Not at all. It existed on the 780, at the very least, so most likely elsewhere. Mentioned in the VAX11/780 Hardware Handbook (e.g. the 1979-80 edition). See:http://www.tavi.co.uk/FUBAR.jpg Yes, the DW780 have a FUBAR register, just as Bob notes. But the thing is, you will not see anything about it if you open up the cabinet. It is not a "physical" bar inside the cabinet. I strongly suspect Bob is right that it might have been some local joke or hack at Dan's high school. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
On 2020-03-23 15:44, Paul Koning wrote: On Mar 23, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: ... I remember they opened the chassis a number of times to show off that bar, the part was indeed labelled "FUBAR", it was the source of some laughs. FUBAR is the name of a 780 CSR (in the UBA: failed unibus address register); perhaps it was used in the 730 as well. I'm sure the engineers got a kick out of being able to sneak that acronym past the writers and managers. I think the FUBAR was only in the DW780. I think I looked at some point around the 11/750 and couldn't even find a FUBAR there. But anyway, the DW780 FUBAR would not be worthy of a label inside the cabinet, so I think this FUBAR Dan saw must have been something else... ... there was what I'd call a bug in the vms on that system. you could rename a .dir that had files within it to say .dat then delete the .dat if you set it /nodirectory, and all the files within the dir would still use up disk space, even though there was now no longer any way to work with them. so you'd have this missing disk space basically forever, still counting against the users quota. I know because I did that at least twice. VMS is like Unix: directories are name to inode number maps (not called "inode"; I forgot the correct name). A file doesn't need a name. I remember RSX had an explicit way to reference a file by its number, don't remember what VMS did. File ID, or FID for short. And I think it's possible to refer to files by ID in VMS as well. Especially from programs, but it might have been possible from DCL as well, with various tools. But anyway, yes, files can get lost. That is one task of fsck (under Unix), VFY (under RSX), or ANALYZE (I think it's under VMS). Finding lost files and enter them into some known directory. I wouldn't even call this a bug. Files-11, which is what VMS and RSX uses, do not reference count files. You can have multiple entries for them in different directories, just like any hard link in Unix, but removing such entries have no bearing on the existence of the file or not. And likewise, you can also delete a file while still having directory entries that refers to it. It's part of the design of the Files-11 file system. And that is why file IDs have two numbers. The first one is the equivalent of the inode number. The second number is a generation number, so that you don't confuse files when a file ID is reused, since you can retain, and refer to files by file ID. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
On 2020-03-23 14:33, Robert Armstrong wrote: Ethan Dicks wrote: Using a PDP-8 as an FEP on any VAX definitely sounds odd. The console front end for the 730 was an 8085 (just like the KS10, FWIW). Trying to remember. Not sure, but I think the 11/750 might have had an 8085 as well. The 730 was interesting in that ALL of the CPU microcode was in RAM and was loaded by the CFE at boot time. It was possible to locally modify the 730 microcode, and DEC even had a set of microcode development tools for the 730. I've never seen them except in references. The 86x0 also loaded all microcode from storage by the FE at boot. In this case, the RL02. I think I have enough documentation that it could be possible to do something with it, but I have never tried... The 11/750 could patch the microcode, but only a limited amount of it. Ultrix (as well as NetBSD) comes with a patch set for the VAX-11/750 microcode. Not sure exactly how it worked on the VAX-11/78x. This is relevant because for years I've heard a persistent rumor that the PDP-8/WPS-8 group at DEC had a 730 with microcode that had been hacked to include a PDP-8 compatibility mode, which they used for development. It was faster than real -8 and supported timesharing to boot. I wonder if this is the source of the original poster's memory? Can anybody confirm or deny this rumor? Paul already commented this, and my understanding matches his actual observations. This was all on an 11/60. Said to have been the fastest PDP-8 around. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Is it possible to simulate the first Vaxen I ever used?
VAX-11/730 with a PDP-8 FEP would have been a rather odd creature. But VMS V2.4 sounds plausible for 1978. V3 or V4 feels like they should have been later. The VAX-11/782 was actually a multiprocessor VAX-11/780. Shared memory, but it was ASMP. Simh cannot emulate that one. However, you'll get mostly the same feeling with just a VAX-11/780 instead. There are no license manager for such old versions of VMS, so they will run no matter if you have PAKs or not. The FORTRAN compiler was, I would guess, FORTRAN-IV-PLUS. Which was a DEC variant. Essentially FORTRAN-IV on stereoids. Lots of things that was in there eventually turned up in FORTRAN-77 as well. And yes, I think most people agree it is "Vaxen". Johnny On 2020-03-23 01:20, Dan Gahlinger wrote: I believe it was a Vax 730 with a PDP-8 FEP, inside the main chassis it actually had a part labelled (in big letters) "FUBAR" If I remember correctly, it ran VMS v2.4 The Vax I have the most memories of though, which I'd also like to simulate, was a Vax 782 (two 780s clustered I believe), and I'm not entirely sure of the VMS version, could be v3.2 or v4.2 People here would know which version was most likely in (guessing mid) 1978 in North America (Ontario/Canada at Western University (UWO)). I have lots of printouts, but I'm not sure I ever captured the version. Of course, I'll need the VMS images (which I may have) and the PAKs for these versions... For sentimental/nostalgic purposes... I remember Fortran on the 782 was kinda wonky at the time, it didn't seem to be able to make up its mind whether it was Fortran/IV or Fortran-77 Note: someone decades ago told me the plural for Vax was "Vaxen", and it just stuck... Dan. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Andy Hoffman's VMS 4.x packages
That shows how reliable my brain is... Johnny On 2020-03-23 01:09, Bob Eager wrote: We were running V4.5 on 8200s. But nothing earlier. On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 00:03:05 +0100 Johnny Billquist wrote: Uh. VMS V4 will most likely not run on the 8200/8250. But if you did get it up, you will need the full AME product installed in order to run RSX software, as these machines don't have hardware PDP-11 compatibility. VMS V4 was right at the time when the first hardware appeared which did not have the PDP-11 compatibility (MicroVAX). All larger/earlier VAXen had it. Johnny On 2020-03-22 21:10, Ray Jewhurst wrote: Just a couple of observations and a question about Andy's distros. First, they WILL run on a simulated VAX-11 730 if RAM is set to 5 megabytes. Also, on the 730 all lp behaviour is normal. Now for my question, is my intuition right in that the RSX package either won't run or simply be useless on the 8200/8250? Thanks Ray ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Andy Hoffman's VMS 4.x packages
Uh. VMS V4 will most likely not run on the 8200/8250. But if you did get it up, you will need the full AME product installed in order to run RSX software, as these machines don't have hardware PDP-11 compatibility. VMS V4 was right at the time when the first hardware appeared which did not have the PDP-11 compatibility (MicroVAX). All larger/earlier VAXen had it. Johnny On 2020-03-22 21:10, Ray Jewhurst wrote: Just a couple of observations and a question about Andy's distros. First, they WILL run on a simulated VAX-11 730 if RAM is set to 5 megabytes. Also, on the 730 all lp behaviour is normal. Now for my question, is my intuition right in that the RSX package either won't run or simply be useless on the 8200/8250? Thanks Ray ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license
Sure. I'll be happy to ignore you. But just for anyone else, here is the exchange I had with Dan on the topic. So noone else have to repeat the same thing. Johnny On 2020-03-17 23:27, Dan Gahlinger wrote: please stop bothering me with your nonsense. *From:* Johnny Billquist *Sent:* March 17, 2020 6:26 PM *To:* Dan Gahlinger *Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license Your question was: "What would HPE do if the pak they released were posted anonymously with the termination date removed?" That seemed to imply that you were thinking that it was possible to "modify" the PAK. My response was: "You need to generate a different PAK. You cannot change any field in an existing PAK and still have a valid PAK. The checksum will (obviously) change." In which way was that overly arrogant, talking down to you like you were stupid or something. In which way was that "massive attitude"? Or, to put it another way: I simply responded wanting to confirm if you understood that it was not possible to "modify" the PAK, but that you in fact have to create a new PAK, which have nothing to do with the HPE PAK. So the question is really, what would HPE do if someone starts sending out their own PAKs for HPW products. It has nothing to do with their (ie. HPE) PAKs. But you certainly is showing a lot of attitude to my response. But that is your problem. Not mine. Just as any response from HPE would be your problem, not mine. Some countries might not care what HPE thinks or does. Sure. Does that change what HPE thinks or does? No idea. Seems unlikely that it would stop HPE to try and protect their property where they can. But that would be pure speculation on my part. If you want to move to Russia, go ahead. Also not my problem. Johnny On 2020-03-17 18:00, Dan Gahlinger wrote: your message seemed overly arrogant intentionally, talking down to me like I was stupid or something. massive attitude. my question was very clear and concise, and you have yet to provide a valid response, not that your opinion has any weight any longer. what is HPE going to do, sue some guy in Russia or Iran? pffft fat chance next time just politely answer Dan Try: https://www.grammarly.com -------- *From:* Johnny Billquist *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2020 12:07:58 PM *To:* Dan Gahlinger *Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license I did feel it was a bit deceptive to phrase the question as if it would be a modification of a HPE PAK. You obviously felt then that this was a fine way to pose the question. Johnny On 2020-03-17 15:28, Dan Gahlinger wrote: well DUH. thanks Captain Obvious... -------- *From:* Johnny Billquist *Sent:* March 17, 2020 10:26 AM *To:* Dan Gahlinger *Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license Sure. But then the question should properly be "What would HPE do of people post arbitrary PAKs"? Because it is not any PAK HPE have released. Johnny On 2020-03-17 15:08, Dan Gahlinger wrote: Obviously, but aside from the termination and checksum, Everything else can be the same. -------- *From:* Johnny Billquist *Sent:* March 17, 2020 10:02 AM *To:* Dan Gahlinger ; simh@trailing-edge.com *Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license You need to generate a different PAK. You cannot change any field in an existing PAK and still have a valid PAK. The checksum will (obviously) change. Johnny On 2020-03-17 14:40, Dan Gahlinger wrote: I ask because countries like Russia just don't care, or like Iran... *I can neither confirm nor deny that such a posting exists... Dan *From:* Simh on behalf of John H. Reinhardt *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2020 9:32:34 AM *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com *Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license On 3/13/2020 11:29 AM, Arthur Krewat wrote: The domain decusserve.org doesn't exist? Typo on my part in the original. It should be one "s"... <https://eisner.decuserve.org> <https://eisner.decuserve.org> for the web page. ssh to eisner.decuserve.org for the login. -- John H. Reinhardt On 3/11/2020 9:23 PM, Tony Nicholson wrote: The URL for OpenVMS hobbyist renewal is https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548 You need to make sure you put valid information in the form and make sure you put something reasonable in the "How do you use the Hobbyist Program?" question. If you don't have a Chapter number, go to (via ssh) eisner.decusserve.org <http://eisner.decusserve.org> and log in with the username of REGISTRATION and follow the prompts. That gets you registered in the US DECUServe chapter (all natio
Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license
You need to generate a different PAK. You cannot change any field in an existing PAK and still have a valid PAK. The checksum will (obviously) change. Johnny On 2020-03-17 14:40, Dan Gahlinger wrote: What would HPE do if the pak they released were posted anonymously with the termination date removed? I ask because countries like Russia just don't care, or like Iran... *I can neither confirm nor deny that such a posting exists... Dan *From:* Simh on behalf of John H. Reinhardt *Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2020 9:32:34 AM *To:* simh@trailing-edge.com *Subject:* Re: [Simh] VMS hobbyist license On 3/13/2020 11:29 AM, Arthur Krewat wrote: The domain decusserve.org doesn't exist? Typo on my part in the original. It should be one "s"... <https://eisner.decuserve.org> <https://eisner.decuserve.org> for the web page. ssh to eisner.decuserve.org for the login. -- John H. Reinhardt On 3/11/2020 9:23 PM, Tony Nicholson wrote: The URL for OpenVMS hobbyist renewal is https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548 You need to make sure you put valid information in the form and make sure you put something reasonable in the "How do you use the Hobbyist Program?" question. If you don't have a Chapter number, go to (via ssh) eisner.decusserve.org <http://eisner.decusserve.org> and log in with the username of REGISTRATION and follow the prompts. That gets you registered in the US DECUServe chapter (all nationalities are welcome) and gets you a valid member number for registration. You may have to wait a week or two for the number to become active at HPE. Tony On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 11:48, dave porter <mailto:dave_list_a...@verizon.net>> wrote: I let my VMS hobbyist license expire a few years back. Can I get one now for the next year? Would someone remind me of how? Thanks. ___ ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program
On 2020-03-08 13:33, Dan Gahlinger wrote: You're probably "safe" to do so if you're in a country that is not part of The Berne Convention, YMMV. Probably not. The Berne convention makes copyright automatic on work. A country that have not signed the Berne convention does not make copyright non-existent in that country. It only means that whoever wanted to have a recognized copyright needed to maybe explicitly register for it. However, I would bet that if that was needed, DEC did that paperwork already a long time ago. So it's protected pretty much everywhere. The US had not signed the Berne convention when VMS was introduced... But again this exposes an age-old issue regarding "abandonware". Indeed. Except in this case it's even less of "abandoned". VMS is still in active development. It's just that they stopped supporting a specific hardware platform. So they abandoned some hardware. Will the Vax VMS copyright therefore expire in 2046? eg 25 years after the license expires. Very unlikely. Copyright is usually until 70 years (currently) after the authors death. However, when copyrights are held by corporations, it can be difficult to talk about the authors death. But for sure it will not be before 70 years of initial publication. Which for VMS would then be in 2047. The expiration of the license definitely have no bearing here. The US extended the period when it got close to the time when Disney copyrights would expire, so chances are it will get extended again soon... :-) We need a hobbyist member with massive pockets to step up and protect it for all of us... Please. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program
On 2020-03-08 12:42, Bob Eager wrote: On Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:34:46 +0100 Johnny Billquist wrote: is HPE going to sue individual hobbyists for copyright? I highly doubt it. Why would they? HPE have given hobbyists licenses which will expire, at which point they just don't have a working license anymore. Not sure what HPE would sue for... I think the context was, at some point in the future, a hobbyist using a pirate licence. Ah. So the question is if HPE would ever sue anyone for using pirate licenses. Good question. Technically, they could, of course. Will they try and hunt people down? I sortof suspect they will not. But HPE are not the only ones with a stake here. What about VSI? After all, if HPE have stopped selling, they wouldn't gain any more money by anyone willing to pay anyway. Anyway, this all becomes speculation. We know it is illegal. Anyone is free to decide on their own if they are willing to break that rule/law, and willing to take that risk (be it high or low). Nobody should make that decision based on the assumption of someone else that it is "safe" though. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] OpenVMS Hobbyist Program
Hmm. You seem to be a bit confused... Let me try and straighten things out... On 2020-03-08 05:21, Dan Gahlinger wrote: is it still technically pirating if it's impossible to legally buy it because it's a dead product? Yes. It is still owned by someone. That doesn't end just because they won't sell it to you. I bought some vax with vms and got documentation with them including licenses of vms v4.x and such, at least one system I'm fairly sure didn't have an expiry date that I could find. of course the license paper says it cost about $90k USD. from Ebay to me for $600 There is a question if that license actually is valid for you. It does not have your name on it. But that is a separate questions for lawyers. copyright laws also differ from country to country, some places have exceptions for personal use or archival purposes. Possibly. That is something for lawyers in those countries to sort out. there are people out there with the pakgen ability, but I'm sure they'd like to remain anonymous. and that becomes problematic for commercial use. Already is. They can potentially generate license also for products that continues to be sold. HPE is basically going to put you out of business if you rely on vms for anything. No they are not. If you have a normal license, it will not expire just because HPE stops selling VMS. That license will continue to work just fine. Most normal, commerical licenses do not have an expiration date. If you are relying on VMS for anything, and are using the hobbyist license, then you are essentially violating the conditions of the hobbyist license to start with, and you have no case to complain. is HPE going to sue individual hobbyists for copyright? I highly doubt it. Why would they? HPE have given hobbyists licenses which will expire, at which point they just don't have a working license anymore. Not sure what HPE would sue for... I doubt commercial too unless it's high profile or a lot of business, even then my argument would be - ok which license do I buy, my business depends on this. A commercial user is not going to be shut down by this announcement. At most, they will not have support anymore. But then again, if they want that, they can buy it from VSI instead. Similar conditions, probably similar prices. Business continues as before. while on the topic what about Charon? what about those licenses? Charon have never been owned by HPE, so obviously that product is unaffected. As for VMS running on those machines, it's the same story as all other licenses. HPE will not be selling any new licenses, and will not provide support anymore. The licenses are still valid, and the systems will continue running, unless you only have some time limited license. Which commercial users usually do not have. I'll use the permanent license I legally purchased, if HPE wants to give me flack for personal, hobbyist use, try me... If you have a permanent license, then it is going to be valid permanently. The current announcement from HPE do not invalidate it. Why do you even think that is the case??? But I do know from another world, that when I got a DEC machine, I also had to contact DEC to *transfer* the license to me. The fact that the seller had a license did not mean he could just hand the paper over and then I had a license. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] macro11
On 2020-03-07 17:19, Rhialto wrote: On Sat 07 Mar 2020 at 15:55:25 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: A few examples: I'll be using this as part of a new text case, if that's ok with you. Of course. I just threw together a couple of cases I thought were interesting. It's properly documented in the MACRO-11 reference manual, which explains all about what type of expression you get. Section 3.9, page 3-14 and forward. There are four types: . Relocatable . Absolute . External . Complex relocatable .MAIN. MACRO V05.05 Saturday 7-MAR-20 15:42 Page 1 1 00 .PSECT FOO,I,RW 2 3 00 42 .WORD 42 4 02 00 Y: .WORD 0 5 6 04 005067 12 CLR Y The effect of .ENABL AMA on this is kind of funny since it makes MACRO11 generate a relocation record where it otherwise would not: No, that is correct. The reason is that it don't know the absolute address of Y. Y is in the psect, and the psect will only be assigned an address at link time. The changes I proposed upthread match all of your test cases. Great. You can see the branch on github at https://github.com/Rhialto/macro11/compare/master...fix-unneeded-relocation When I have a little time... ;-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] macro11
Had some further exchanges in private with Don, but here is the bottom
line as far as I am understanding things...
The relocation of a value have nothing to do with the instruction, or
the addressing mode of the instruction. If that is being used, it is
"wrong". The addressing mode, if the expression is relocatable, will
decide what kind of relocatable record will be created, but it does not
decide if there even should be a relocatable record or not.
This should all be about the value of the evaluated expression. If the
evaluated expression is relative, then it needs to be relocated by the
linker. If it is absolute, then MACRO-11 can create the end results
directly.
A few examples:
.MAIN. MACRO V05.05 Saturday 7-MAR-20 15:42 Page 1
1 00 .PSECT FOO,I,RW
2
3 00 42 .WORD 42
4 02 00 Y: .WORD 0
5
6 04 005067 12 CLR Y
7 10 005037 02' CLR @#Y
8 14 005067 001234' CLR X
9 20 005037 001234 CLR @#X
10
11 00 .ASECT
12 001000 .=1000
13 001234 X=1234
14
15 001000 005067 000230 CLR X
16 001004 005037 001234 CLR @#X
17 001010 005067 02' CLR Y
18 001014 005037 02' CLR @#Y
19
20 01 .END
.MAIN. MACRO V05.05 Saturday 7-MAR-20 15:42 Page 1-1
Symbol table
X = 001234 Y 02R 002
. ABS. 001020000 (RW,I,GBL,ABS,OVR)
00001 (RW,I,LCL,REL,CON)
FOO 24002 (RW,I,LCL,REL,CON)
Errors detected: 0
*** Assembler statistics
Work file reads: 0
Work file writes: 0
Size of work file: 40 Words ( 1 Pages)
Size of core pool: 9524 Words ( 36 Pages)
Operating system: RSX-11M/M-PLUS
Elapsed time: 00:00:00.01
,TT=TT
Line 6 becomes an absolute expression since it's a subtraction of the
relative address of Y from the current position, both in the same psect.
Such an operation renders an absolute value.
Line 7 becomes relocatable, since the absolute address of Y is unknown
because it's in a psect that can be moved around at link time.
Line 8 becomes relocatable because even though X is at a known address,
the address of the instruction is unknown and subject to the location of
the psect, which is only decided at link time.
Line 9 becomes absolute since it is an expression only dependent on an
absolute value.
Line 15 becomes absolute since it's an expression subtracting two
absolute values which obviously have an absolute result.
Line 16 becomes absolute since it is an expression only dependent on an
absolute value.
Line 17 becomes relocatable because the address of Y is in another
psect, and the subtraction of a relative address from an absolute
renders a relative value.
Line 18 becomes relocatable because the absolute address of Y is
unknown. MACRO-11 only have a relative value of Y.
Note that all references to Y contains 02. This is because that is
the offset of Y within the psect. This is added to the base of the psect
(the part that comes from this object file), which is all the linker
will know about.
Johnny
On 2020-03-07 14:47, Rhialto wrote:
On Sat 07 Mar 2020 at 01:59:03 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
In the end, that is a different thing. Absolute addressing is not what Bob
was thinking about here...
Here is what MACRO-11 does:
1 00 .ASECT
2 001000 .=1000
3 001234 X=1234
4
5 001000 005067 000230 CLR X
6
Note that the addressing is still relative. But the actual offset required
can be computed by MACRO-11 at compile time.
This is the output of dumpobj for that code. It looks like indeed there
is an unneeded relocation record in there:
GSD:
GLOBAL X =1234 DEF ABS flags=110
MODNAME TEST =0 flags=0
PSECT =0 CON RW REL LCL I flags=40
PSECT . ABS.=1004 OVR RW ABS GBL I flags=104
XFER . ABS.=1 flags=10
ENDGSD
RLD
Location counter definition . ABS.+1000
TEXT ADDR=1000 LEN=4
001000: 005067 001234 7...
RLD
Internal displaced 1002=1234
ENDMOD
It looks like the 2nd RLD record is generated by the code
text_displaced_word() in object.c. That in turn must be called from this
code in assemble_aux.c, since there are no other callers to
store_displaced_word():
void mode_extension(
...
if (value->type == EX_LIT) {
if (mode->rel)
Re: [Simh] macro11
On 2020-03-07 01:52, Don North wrote: On 2020-03-06 02:53 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: Another macro11 question - do the apostrophes in the listing indicate relocatable references, as they do in the DEC version? If so, then I don't think it's assembling this code correctly - 1 .TITLE TEST RELOCATABLE REFERENCES 2 00 .ASECT 3 001000 .=1000 4 5 001234 X == 1234 6 7 001000 005067 001234' CLR X 8 X should be an absolute address, not relocatable. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh The apostrophe trailing on the octal word indicates that it is a computed target address. It is not what you would actually see in the .obj or .bin files. If you want to force all references to be absolute instead of relocatable you can add an ' .ENABL AMA' pseudo-op before the .ASECT pseudo-op. This will force all relative mode instruction references to become absolute mode. Or of course you could just do ' CLR @#X' for that instruction. In the end, that is a different thing. Absolute addressing is not what Bob was thinking about here... Here is what MACRO-11 does: 1 00 .ASECT 2 001000 .=1000 3 001234 X=1234 4 5 001000 005067 000230 CLR X 6 Note that the addressing is still relative. But the actual offset required can be computed by MACRO-11 at compile time. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Various
It's still all stuck with HP... And unfortunately, at the moment I can't seem to raise Dave. :-( Johnny On 2020-02-15 02:09, Paul Koning wrote: Apart from "no because it's not open source" there is also "no, because DEC didn't use source control like that". Late in the RSTS development there was a very primitive source control system that understood the notion of checking out a file in the sense of reserving it. But that tool (known as "MOM") was not a revision control system that tracked deltas. I wonder if XX2477 LLC could be talked into opening up the sources of the software they own. paul On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:26 PM, Stigall, BJ - Junk Mail wrote: Is there an archive of source code for RT11, RSTS and other PDP operating software (with comments, hopefully)? ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Various
Nope. Because it's still proprietary. Johnny On 2020-02-14 23:26, Stigall, BJ - Junk Mail wrote: Is there an archive of source code for RT11, RSTS and other PDP operating software (with comments, hopefully)? -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of Ken Hall Sent: Friday, February 14, 2020 3:45 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] Various I don't recall it ever working, and I've fooled with it on and off for over 10 years. Be nice to find out why it doesn't after all this time though. Haven't had a chance to try the last few suggestions. -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of Bob Supnik Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 7:51 AM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] Various 1. I can confirm that RT11 V5.3 INIT does not work properly with an RL02 in 3.10. My next step is to trace back changes, because I think it used to work. 2. There's no card reader for the SDS 940 because a) I hate card readers (from having used them way back when) b) I thought there wouldn't be any demand Rich Cornwell's library should make it easier to implement a card reader these days. My first card reader story goes back to an RCA Spectra 70 I used in 1965. It had a vacuum pick reader for high speed operation. The reader would gradually curl the front edge of the cards, so that after two or three passes, the deck was unreadable. It's failure mode was to spit cards out, past the receive hopper, at very high velocity and scatter them ten or fifteen feet out on the floor... The second was a very slow mechanical reader on a PDP-7 in 1966. The only other keyboard device was a Teletype, so initial entry of programs was done from punched cards. It read, allegedly, 100 cards per minute using mechanical fingers with little star wheels on the end. DEC field service was in almost every week tuning or fixing the damned thing so that it could actually handle a decent-sized deck. In my experience, only IBM built decent card readers. The reader/punch on the 1620 (I used one in 1964) was very sturdy, and the 407 (used for offline printing of punched card output) could read almost anything. /Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Various
On 2020-02-14 01:35, Timothe Litt wrote: On 13-Feb-20 19:21, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote: On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole <mailto:cl...@ccc.com>> wrote: I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10. I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen. The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the mill or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them. As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11. However, there were readers. And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not be hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially supported or not I don't know, though. There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never supported on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05. Johnny See my previous note. Came to yours later... The punches you mention do exist, as do others (Not particularly common or popular): * PDP-11: CP11-UP Punch interface for Univac 1710 Card RDR/PUNCH Was that a CSS product perhaps? Even looking at the PDP-11 Peripherals handbook from 1976 don't mention it. There is only CM11, CR11 and CD11. All three are card reader only. Haven't manage to find anything on bitsavers yet, but there are a bunch of places to search, so I might just have missed it. Card readers were sold and supported on all systems thru VAX. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I wasn't at all sure about the VAX. Someone wrote a DECtape driver for VAX - I think Stan R., though it wasn't supported. DECtape controllers are odd devices - the TD10 is reasonably smart, but the others put realtime constraints on the drivers that could be hard to meet. Anyhow, by the time the VAX came out, TU58 and Floppies were cheaper and denser media. I actually do remember seeing it. Fun thing. :-) There was also an unsupported DECtape driver for TOPS-20. KLs with DECtape was always only Tops-10? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Of DEC and cards
On 2020-02-13 18:34, Timothe Litt wrote: The 10/20 MPB and GALAXY batch systems supported the model of preparing jobs on cards - and feeding them in a continuous stream. Some university environments used that into the 80s. Being DEC, the "JCL" was trivially simple; nothing like the IBM nightmares of complexity. The batch system under RSX is the same. It can take jobs on punched cards, which has its own queue(s). A few years ago someone was trying to play around with this, and found some bugs. Clearly noone had been using this in a long time, or else had been using it in a very limited, legacy way. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Various
On 2020-02-13 17:42, Clem Cole wrote: On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Clem Cole <mailto:cl...@ccc.com>> wrote: I think I saw a card read/punch only once on a PDP-6 IIRC, but it might have been a KA10. I don't think I ever saw one on a PDP-8/11 or Vaxen. The more I think about it, there must have been one or two in the mill or the machine room in MRO, but I just can not picture them. As far as I know, there was no punch for the PDP-8 or PDP-11. However, there were readers. And the PDP-11 reader controller sat on the Unibus, so it would not be hard to get it working on a VAX either. If that was officially supported or not I don't know, though. There were a bunch of PDP-11 Unibus peripherals that was never supported on a VAX. DECtape comes to mind, as well as RK05. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Subject: Re: something strange with simulated RK05 drive ?
Hi. On 2020-02-12 17:33, Henk Gooijen wrote: Thanks for responses, I learned a few things! [...] Always fun to learn more things... :-) My current implementation turns on the FAULT lamp for several reasons. - for the RK11 errors (so I need to check and somewhat improve that), although the errors are not likely to occur in SIMH, unless you are programming access to the registers directly and make a mistake ... But I think it be a mistake to source the error lamp from that. - if the drive (or software!) sets the drive to "read-only" (thus the WT-PROT lamp goes on), and you do some write action, for example, try to delete a file, the FAULT lamp goes on. That sounds just plain wrong. That is not a fault at all. That just fails. You get an error in the software, but the drive does not indicate anything. Toggling the WT-PROT switch or (RT11 command) .SET RK0 LOCKED will turn on the WT-PROT lamp. Toggling again or .SET RK0 WRITEENABLE will turn off the WT-PROT lamp. From software you cannot remove the write protect. That can only be done through the physical switch. The software can only turn on write protect. It's not a toggle. - according to RK11/RK05 documentation, toggling the WT-PROT or the LOAD/RUN switch (to RUN) will turn off the FAULT lamp. I can't believe that playing with the write protect switch would have any affect on the fault lamp. I think only the load/run switch would do that. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] something strange with simulated RK05 drive ?
And I need to slightly correct myself, now that I've read through the RK11 documentation... On 2020-02-12 02:02, Johnny Billquist wrote: But I did now... And I don't agree with you. simh is setting an error state if you ask for a too high cylinder. And the error is exactly what Henk described. RKER_NXC is set. You are misunderstanding what Henk wrote. However, with that said, Henk have misunderstood the system. It is important to understand that the disk drive and the controller are two separate entities. The fault light is only about error conditions on the disk drive, not the controller. Out of cylinder errors are caught by the controller and never even gets to the disk drive, so there is nothing that the disk drive will indicate for this. Henk, you need to understand how these systems work a little better. :-) To be very clear. The RK11 Error register have pretty much nothing to do with the error indicator on the RK05 disk drive. You can possibly make some educated guess from the drive status register, but the Error register is basically about the RK11, and not the RK05. However, the cylinder error is not absolutely local to the controller, as I assumed. In fact, the RK11 sends the cylinder over to the drive, and the drive responds either with an Address Error, or Address acknowledge signal to this. That in turn drives the cylinder error bit in the controller. But the disk drive itself does not drive any error indication based on this. Drive errors are about internal things of the disk drive. simh actually do not at all simulate this side, so you are in fact entirely on your own here. There is nothing really in simh for you. simh is emulating things up to the point of the registers and interrupts of the controller, but beyond that it does not at all reflect how the real system works. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] something strange with simulated RK05 drive ?
On 2020-02-12 01:49, Paul Koning wrote: On Feb 11, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-02-12 01:24, Paul Koning wrote: There is no such thing as "format", in the sense of writing sector headers, on an RK05. Uh... Yes there is. I happen to have written a formatting program myself on a PDP-8 for the RK05. It can definitely write the sector headers. Oops. You're right, I misremembered. Once in a while, I do get my facts straight... More often than not, I am in error, though... :-) I don't think Henk was talking about SIMH having a problem, though I got a bit confused. The question was about the fact that the fault light was coming on. My answer is: don't implement that light, there is no condition in the emulated drive that matches what that light does in the real drive. I think Henk was also reflecting on that the error condition in simh was triggered by the cylinder address error, and this is what he was using as the source for his error light. If I understood it right, Henk didn't implement the logic to trigger the error state. He's merely extracting the information in order to display it on the RK05 panel. And the light went on, and that led us here... But I might have missed the whole point... There is no fault light handling that I can see in SIMH. The way I read Henk's comment is that he observed from debug messages added to pdp11_rk.c that RT11 FORMAT was passing an out of bounds cylinder number. FWIW, I see RSTS-11 DSKINT format code stopping at cylinder 202, as expected. Ok. You obviously looked deeper into it than I did. I have not actually checked the simh code here. But I did now... And I don't agree with you. simh is setting an error state if you ask for a too high cylinder. And the error is exactly what Henk described. RKER_NXC is set. You are misunderstanding what Henk wrote. However, with that said, Henk have misunderstood the system. It is important to understand that the disk drive and the controller are two separate entities. The fault light is only about error conditions on the disk drive, not the controller. Out of cylinder errors are caught by the controller and never even gets to the disk drive, so there is nothing that the disk drive will indicate for this. Henk, you need to understand how these systems work a little better. :-) I'm not sure why one would format an emulated RK05, assuming that it only simulates the data portion of the sectors and not the header word. Oh, I agree that it's pretty much a NOP really. But if you have the system, and a command in there, you can bet that someone is going to run it. And at least the system should pretend it did the "right" thing... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] something strange with simulated RK05 drive ?
On 2020-02-12 01:24, Paul Koning wrote: On Feb 11, 2020, at 6:00 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-02-11 23:25, Paul Koning wrote: On Feb 11, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: ... As you can see from the printed debug statements, in the function rk_go() the cylinder number goes higher than the maximum number of cylinders possible on an RK05. Then, the function rk_set_done() is called with the variable "error" holding RKER_NXC (64 decimal == 000100, octal == RKER_NXC) ==> turns on the FAULT indicator. SIMH does not generate an error, all is OK, as is on the real PDP-11 / RK05. For now, I "solved" this by adding "if (error != RKER_NXC)", but that will exclude all "non-existing cylinder" errors, not only the error that is generated at the end of the FORMAT RK0: command. Is this incorrect behavior in SIMH, simulating the RK05? I don't believe that, so is the RKER_NXC handled in the RK.SYS driver or in RT11 in case of the execution of the FORMAT command? I only have some V2 sources. The zero directory operation, which I think is what "format" uses, just grabs the device size and writes an empty directory. So I'm puzzled by the reference to an invalid sector. I would expect the INIT to write the empty directory. I would expect FORMAT to actually format the disk pack, meaning writing the sector header for each sector on the whole packet. A little surprised, though, that the formatting wouldn't know how many tracks there are, and continue until it hits an error. There is no such thing as "format", in the sense of writing sector headers, on an RK05. Uh... Yes there is. I happen to have written a formatting program myself on a PDP-8 for the RK05. It can definitely write the sector headers. The driver calls that a hard error (no retrying). But why would you turn on the FAULT light on your RK05 for that? Fault, on the RK05, means servo failure, in particular it means the servo grid light bulb has burned out. References to invalid disk addresses don't light FAULT in an RK05. The Peripherals handbook describes it as (a) that light bulb failed, or (b) write current is present without a write command, meaning your disk probably has been wiped by an electronic failure. Sounds like simh does it wrong, then. I don't think Henk was talking about SIMH having a problem, though I got a bit confused. The question was about the fact that the fault light was coming on. My answer is: don't implement that light, there is no condition in the emulated drive that matches what that light does in the real drive. I think Henk was also reflecting on that the error condition in simh was triggered by the cylinder address error, and this is what he was using as the source for his error light. If I understood it right, Henk didn't implement the logic to trigger the error state. He's merely extracting the information in order to display it on the RK05 panel. And the light went on, and that led us here... But I might have missed the whole point... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] something strange with simulated RK05 drive ?
On 2020-02-11 23:25, Paul Koning wrote: On Feb 11, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: I am building a replica RK05 disk drive with working switches and panel lamps. This will be an add-on to the PiDP-11/70, giving the user even more the look and feel of operating a PDP-11 system The RK05 drive is constructed at the same scale dimensions as Oscar's PiDP-11/70 and has a front door with lock mechanism just like the real RK05. A real RK05 disk cartridge is 3D scanned and will be (scaled) 3D printed. Inside that disk cartridge is a USB stick on which 7 virtual RK05 "disk" container files can be stored. Jumper setting in the cartridge selects which container file is actually "mounted" when the cartrdige is mounted in the drive. Neat. So far for the introduction To make this setup work I have made changes to scp.c, scp.h, pdp11_cpu.c, pdp11_rk.c and the makefile, and added a few files (drive "behavior" and USB stick handling). All indicator lamps seem to behave as on the real RK05 drive ... however, when I do .FORMAT RK0: (I am using RT-11) this command always ends with turning on the FAULT indicator. I have added print statements to the original SIMH distribution in pdp11_rk.c to show the problem (so no "rubbish of mine interference"). This is what I see: PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Currentgit commit id: 0de9b628 sim> set rl rl02 sim> att rl0 rt-work.dsk RL0: 'rt-work.dsk' Contains RT11 partitions 1 valid partition, Type: V05, Sectors On Disk: 10210 sim> att rk0 rk.dsk RK: creating new file sim> boot rl0 RT-11FB V5.03 .dir rk0: ?DIR-F-Invalid directory .format rk0: RK0:/FORMAT-Are you sure? Y pdp11_rk.c :: in rk_go() cyl >= RK_NUMCY pdp11_rk.c :: rk_set_done() called with error 64 ?FORMAT-I-Formatting complete .init rk0: RK0:/Initialzie; Are you sure? Y .dir rk0: 0 Files, 0 Blocks 4762 Free blocks . As you can see from the printed debug statements, in the function rk_go() the cylinder number goes higher than the maximum number of cylinders possible on an RK05. Then, the function rk_set_done() is called with the variable "error" holding RKER_NXC (64 decimal == 000100, octal == RKER_NXC) ==> turns on the FAULT indicator. SIMH does not generate an error, all is OK, as is on the real PDP-11 / RK05. For now, I "solved" this by adding "if (error != RKER_NXC)", but that will exclude all "non-existing cylinder" errors, not only the error that is generated at the end of the FORMAT RK0: command. Is this incorrect behavior in SIMH, simulating the RK05? I don't believe that, so is the RKER_NXC handled in the RK.SYS driver or in RT11 in case of the execution of the FORMAT command? I only have some V2 sources. The zero directory operation, which I think is what "format" uses, just grabs the device size and writes an empty directory. So I'm puzzled by the reference to an invalid sector. I would expect the INIT to write the empty directory. I would expect FORMAT to actually format the disk pack, meaning writing the sector header for each sector on the whole packet. A little surprised, though, that the formatting wouldn't know how many tracks there are, and continue until it hits an error. The driver calls that a hard error (no retrying). But why would you turn on the FAULT light on your RK05 for that? Fault, on the RK05, means servo failure, in particular it means the servo grid light bulb has burned out. References to invalid disk addresses don't light FAULT in an RK05. The Peripherals handbook describes it as (a) that light bulb failed, or (b) write current is present without a write command, meaning your disk probably has been wiped by an electronic failure. Sounds like simh does it wrong, then. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS
Time for a new release announcement of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. Highlights: . IP multicasting have been implemented . TCP stability improvements Detailed information on things that have been done since the last release: IP: . Added IP multicast support, and functions to enable this on UDP sockets. UDP: . Added functions for joining and leaving multicast groups on sockets. TCP: . Bugfix in TCP. Under some circumstances, TCP will stop receiving data because of a calculation error on TCP sequence numbers. . Improvement in TCP. Code accidentally sent unnecessary probes when a socket is in Close Wait. . Bugfix in TCP. Any ICMP error received for a socket caused the TCP connection to close down. This should not happen for ICMP source quench or ICMP timeout messages. . Correct MSS computation and setup based on interface MTU. IFCONFIG: . Added ability to change MTU of interface in IFCONFIG. FTPD: . Bugfix in FTPD. Long home directory names caused FTPD to fail. Some additional notes: Some people might wonder why the multicast changes have been introduced, but no other changes related to it. I wanted to get this change out now in order to allow people the possibility to play with it, if anyone is interested. For my own part, I next plan to look at mDNS, to allow RSX to live in home networks without a proper DNS server, but still be visible to other systems. mDNS depends on multicast groups. In addition, the TCP corrections finally fixed some long standing problems that I have been observing that have been very rare, but very annoying to me. BQTCP is now behaving very well on the network, and I do not actually have any known issues (at this time) that that are nagging me. I hope this release will see a further reduction on work on protocols like IP, TCP and UDP, and future work will be even more focused on higher level protocols. As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://mim.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk The documentation is also available through ftp on Mim, or also at http://mim.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc I hope people find this update useful. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Error in rsx-11mplus every 5 minutes?
DEL is the same as PIP /DE. That tries to delete the file. But as I said, the file is already deleted. It's just directory entry that remains, which needs to be removed. As for where it is, that comes from knowing the system. :-) Johnny On 2020-01-09 04:47, Dave Shevett wrote: So being clever I tried to do this by hand with a del command: $ DEL DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP Delete file DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP;1[Y/N/G/Q]? Y DEL -- Failed to mark file for delete DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP;1 -- No such file Delete file DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP;2[Y/N/G/Q]? Y DEL -- Failed to mark file for delete DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP;2 -- File ID, sequence number check It looks like the PIP command did work (no error at least) $ PIP DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP;/RM $ Why did the DEL command not work? Also, how did you know it was in 1,6? The error message was ???,??? -d, learning On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 6:13 AM Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2020-01-08 04:24, Dave Shevett wrote: 04:04:00 SYSLOG -- 70. *ERROR* On scan file open 04:04:00 SYSLOG -- 4. FCS I/O error code = 346 file: DU0:[???,???]SYSSCAN.TMP;1 04:09:00 SYSLOG -- 70. *ERROR* On scan file open 04:09:00 SYSLOG -- 4. FCS I/O error code = 346 file: DU0:[???,???]SYSSCAN.TMP;1 This is because of an improper shutdown of the system. Probably you just turned the machine off, or restarted without first shutting down. What happens is that there is a file used by the system which is marked for deletion when closed. The file do get deleted, because that part is managed right. However, the directory entry for the file is then still around. When the system starts up, it tries to open the existing file before creating a new one, and it does succeed in finding the file in the directory, but the actual file is not there anymore. So opening the file fails with this error code. .err 346 000346 (230): %I/O-E-IE.NSF, no such file . The solution is to delete the directory entry: PIP DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP;/RM Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Error in rsx-11mplus every 5 minutes?
On 2020-01-08 04:24, Dave Shevett wrote: 04:04:00 SYSLOG -- 70. *ERROR* On scan file open 04:04:00 SYSLOG -- 4. FCS I/O error code = 346 file: DU0:[???,???]SYSSCAN.TMP;1 04:09:00 SYSLOG -- 70. *ERROR* On scan file open 04:09:00 SYSLOG -- 4. FCS I/O error code = 346 file: DU0:[???,???]SYSSCAN.TMP;1 This is because of an improper shutdown of the system. Probably you just turned the machine off, or restarted without first shutting down. What happens is that there is a file used by the system which is marked for deletion when closed. The file do get deleted, because that part is managed right. However, the directory entry for the file is then still around. When the system starts up, it tries to open the existing file before creating a new one, and it does succeed in finding the file in the directory, but the actual file is not there anymore. So opening the file fails with this error code. .err 346 000346 (230): %I/O-E-IE.NSF, no such file . The solution is to delete the directory entry: PIP DU0:[1,6]SYSSCAN.TMP;/RM Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Folks who have old DECUS tapes... look for something for me?
I forgot to mention: it's definitely worth diving down into ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/ as well... Johnny On 2019-12-29 14:05, Johnny Billquist wrote: I have most, if not all, RSX symposium tapes. I think I have a few RT-11 tapes as well. But I got some of them from Tim Shoppa a long time ago. And he has them on trailing-edge as well. There you'll find both the RSX and RT-11 tapes as well as a bunch of PDP-10 stuff. Johnny On 2019-12-29 05:49, Michael Kerpan wrote: Good luck. I've been looking for old DECUS tapes as well. At least some of them used to be online, but they've disappeared over the last 5-10 years. An interesting project would to get tape images, sort through them and create an emulator-friendly "best of" tape with various games and programs that would be fun and interesting for a new user setting up a virtual PDP-11 for the first time. Mike On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 11:05 PM Dave Shevett <mailto:shev...@pobox.com>> wrote: I saw a couple posts about people who had access to old DECUS archives. This is a long shot, but I might as well ask. When I was a wee undergrad at RIT, I sucked as a student, but I loved coding games. I wrote a couple games that ran under VMS - they were all in BASIC (whichever variant of BASIC was active on VMS in 1982), but used the ReGIS graphics library for doing games on the terminals. One was called Labyrinth, and I'm pretty sure it outlasted my tenure there. A dungeon crawling game. The other might have just been called Trek. Used a custom font loaded into the ReGIS graphics lib and had little starships and stuff in it. IT was a rewrite of one of the old Creative Computing games. I don't suppose ya'll have seen either of these around, and if so, can send me the source code? That would be a major goal of mine to get those running again. -d -- Dave Shevett shev...@pobox.com <mailto:shev...@pobox.com> ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Folks who have old DECUS tapes... look for something for me?
I have most, if not all, RSX symposium tapes. I think I have a few RT-11 tapes as well. But I got some of them from Tim Shoppa a long time ago. And he has them on trailing-edge as well. There you'll find both the RSX and RT-11 tapes as well as a bunch of PDP-10 stuff. Johnny On 2019-12-29 05:49, Michael Kerpan wrote: Good luck. I've been looking for old DECUS tapes as well. At least some of them used to be online, but they've disappeared over the last 5-10 years. An interesting project would to get tape images, sort through them and create an emulator-friendly "best of" tape with various games and programs that would be fun and interesting for a new user setting up a virtual PDP-11 for the first time. Mike On Sat, Dec 28, 2019, 11:05 PM Dave Shevett <mailto:shev...@pobox.com>> wrote: I saw a couple posts about people who had access to old DECUS archives. This is a long shot, but I might as well ask. When I was a wee undergrad at RIT, I sucked as a student, but I loved coding games. I wrote a couple games that ran under VMS - they were all in BASIC (whichever variant of BASIC was active on VMS in 1982), but used the ReGIS graphics library for doing games on the terminals. One was called Labyrinth, and I'm pretty sure it outlasted my tenure there. A dungeon crawling game. The other might have just been called Trek. Used a custom font loaded into the ReGIS graphics lib and had little starships and stuff in it. IT was a rewrite of one of the old Creative Computing games. I don't suppose ya'll have seen either of these around, and if so, can send me the source code? That would be a major goal of mine to get those running again. -d -- Dave Shevett shev...@pobox.com <mailto:shev...@pobox.com> ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Some beginner questions about RSX11 and/or RSTS on simh...
Oh, and just in case it wasn't clear: mim.update.uu.se Johnny On 2019-12-29 01:06, Johnny Billquist wrote: Hi. Anyone can log into MIM. Just telnet to mim.update.uu.se, and it should become obvious how to do it. Also, ftp works as well. But you need to log in with an actual user, and not as anonymous. But the user information should also be obvious once you tried telnet... Johnny On 2019-12-28 23:55, Dave Shevett wrote: Hi Johnny - I'd like access to the MIM resources - do I need to be on HECnet to do this? Or can I just ftp to them? Looking at http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html right now for information on MIM. (I do apologize for the n00b questions. I'm realizing how much I DONT remember about rsx11 :) -d On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 5:35 PM Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2019-12-28 21:07, John H. Reinhardt wrote: On 12/27/2019 2:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Oh, and if we're talking ponies, if I could play Empire... one last time... :) :) :) I have the binary. I also have sources, but not for the same version I have the binary for... :-) Runs under RSX, but I would suspect it would run under RSTS/E in the RSX RTS as well. Johnny The source in FORTRAN (IIRC)? Is it on HECnet? I gotta get my connection set up now that I'm getting settled in the new house. I've seen binaries online various places but the source has eluded me. Ok. Sources now under MIM::US:[EMPIRE] The V5 binary can be found under MIM::SYS$GAMES:EMPIRE.* Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Some beginner questions about RSX11 and/or RSTS on simh...
Hi. Anyone can log into MIM. Just telnet to mim.update.uu.se, and it should become obvious how to do it. Also, ftp works as well. But you need to log in with an actual user, and not as anonymous. But the user information should also be obvious once you tried telnet... Johnny On 2019-12-28 23:55, Dave Shevett wrote: Hi Johnny - I'd like access to the MIM resources - do I need to be on HECnet to do this? Or can I just ftp to them? Looking at http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html right now for information on MIM. (I do apologize for the n00b questions. I'm realizing how much I DONT remember about rsx11 :) -d On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 5:35 PM Johnny Billquist wrote: On 2019-12-28 21:07, John H. Reinhardt wrote: On 12/27/2019 2:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Oh, and if we're talking ponies, if I could play Empire... one last time... :) :) :) I have the binary. I also have sources, but not for the same version I have the binary for... :-) Runs under RSX, but I would suspect it would run under RSTS/E in the RSX RTS as well. Johnny The source in FORTRAN (IIRC)? Is it on HECnet? I gotta get my connection set up now that I'm getting settled in the new house. I've seen binaries online various places but the source has eluded me. Ok. Sources now under MIM::US:[EMPIRE] The V5 binary can be found under MIM::SYS$GAMES:EMPIRE.* Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Some beginner questions about RSX11 and/or RSTS on simh...
On 2019-12-28 21:07, John H. Reinhardt wrote: On 12/27/2019 2:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Oh, and if we're talking ponies, if I could play Empire... one last time... :) :) :) I have the binary. I also have sources, but not for the same version I have the binary for... :-) Runs under RSX, but I would suspect it would run under RSTS/E in the RSX RTS as well. Johnny The source in FORTRAN (IIRC)? Is it on HECnet? I gotta get my connection set up now that I'm getting settled in the new house. I've seen binaries online various places but the source has eluded me. Ok. Sources now under MIM::US:[EMPIRE] The V5 binary can be found under MIM::SYS$GAMES:EMPIRE.* Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Some beginner questions about RSX11 and/or RSTS on simh...
Hi. On 2019-12-28 21:07, John H. Reinhardt wrote: On 12/27/2019 2:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Oh, and if we're talking ponies, if I could play Empire... one last time... :) :) :) I have the binary. I also have sources, but not for the same version I have the binary for... :-) Runs under RSX, but I would suspect it would run under RSTS/E in the RSX RTS as well. Johnny The source in FORTRAN (IIRC)? Is it on HECnet? I gotta get my connection set up now that I'm getting settled in the new house. Yes, it's FORTRAN. I have it on a machine of my own, but I can put it on MIM if you want to. That said, the sources comes from a DECUS tape. And it's version 4. The binary I have is of version 5. If anyone would know where to find sources for version 5, I would be most interested... I've seen binaries online various places but the source has eluded me. You never checked the DECUS library? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Some beginner questions about RSX11 and/or RSTS on simh...
On 2019-12-27 19:53, Dave Shevett wrote: On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 1:39 PM Paul Koning wrote: You mean real RSX, not POS? So, IIRC, P/OS was built on top of RSX11. It was the menu system and application framework, but under the covers, it was all RSX11. I remember if you had the (development option?) you could drop to a DCL prompt and do whatever you liked with it. Sortof. It's all definitely based on RSX, but P/OS did add some stuff of its own, which is separate from RSX. But for most things, RSX programs will run on P/OS, as long as they don't try anything too fancy, and they might not work from the menu system, but depends on the DCL environment. Sortof similar in the other direction as well. P/OS programs will run on RSX, as long as you don't try any P/OS specific stuff, or try to call the menu system. Much of the sources are shared between P/OS and RSX, but not all of them, and RSX eventually grew to have much more capabilities than P/OS ever got. 1) I'm assuming RSX-11m is where I should be focusing my work - even though my personal systems were RSTS based, (with an occasional boot of RT11 to test stuff) i feel RSX-11m is the more 'complete' and modern OS (contextually speaking). Does this make sense? Not necessarily. It depends a bit on what you want to do. As Johnny points out, if you want TCP/IP, the only RSX will do thanks to his work. (Or Unix I suppose, but I assume we're talking DEC operating systems.) If you want to write device drivers, RSX or RT are options, RSTS is not. (At least not in the sense of something you can do from documentation -- it *can* be done and has been but unless you were part of the RSTS/E engineering team it's quite tough to pull off.) If you want something really fast and skinny, RT-11 is the obvious answer. RSTS/E of course is the place for traditional timesharing. If you are looking for places to run application programs you might have lying around, RSTS/E is probably a very good answer. It has both RT11 and RSX emulation that's quite solid. Some real time features may not be great, though they should be faked adequately. For example, RSTS doesn't have ASTs or asynchronous I/O (except some disk and tape I/O in V9.0 and later) but the emulation will fake it. Similarly, you can run user interfaces that feel like RT11 or RSX, at least superficially. And DCL in V9 or V10 is very good. It really does come down to "what do I want to do with this" doesn't it? I'm not a strong programmer outside of high level languages (though I know a half dozen assembler variants) Definitely boils down to what you want to do... Pretty much the same high level languages exists on both systems. I was in college when I started most of my DEC experience, and that was all on 11/730's. Vaxen running VMS. I wrote a ton of stuff in BASIC-11 that used ReGIS to display stuff via the GIGI terminals. When I worked for a DEC reseller later, the Pro/350's we had ran a bunch of ReGIS demos that were awesome. I think my ultimate goal is to have a GIGI (or, I suppose, anything htat supported ReGIS, which includes a VT240 I believe) connected to the PiDP11 running graphics stuff. RSTS/E or RSX11 will do either of these things just fine I think. Yes. Either will cut it. I guess mostly I want DCL, EDT, ability to telnet in, and ultimately a ReGIS terminal. DCL and EDT you'll have on either. Not identical, but pretty similar. telnet is either through the simulator for RSTS/E, or simulator or native with RSX. Anything beyond, like ftp, is RSX only. ReGIS terminals obviously does not care which OS you are running. Oh, and if we're talking ponies, if I could play Empire... one last time... :) :) :) I have the binary. I also have sources, but not for the same version I have the binary for... :-) Runs under RSX, but I would suspect it would run under RSTS/E in the RSX RTS as well. Right now I'm focusing on finishing up the PiDP11 front panel - hopefully that'll be in the next week, then i'll have my blinkenlights :) Always a good start. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Some beginner questions about RSX11 and/or RSTS on simh...
Hi. On 2019-12-24 18:06, Dave Shevett wrote: Hi everyone - happily getting into simh now, reliving my happy upbringing on DEC hardware :) . I used to run RSTS on my own 11/34a, and did a bunch of other work on RSX-11m on DEC Pro/350's, so very much looking forward to reliving some of those times. Fond memories, I can tell. :-) A couple basic questions 1) I'm assuming RSX-11m is where I should be focusing my work - even though my personal systems were RSTS based, (with an occasional boot of RT11 to test stuff) i feel RSX-11m is the more 'complete' and modern OS (contextually speaking). Does this make sense? Not sure I fully agree, although in some sense I do. However, if you were to look at the last (latest) RSTS/E release, I'm sure you would find it rather nice and modern. But there are certainly a thing or three you can't do in RSTS/E. There still isn't any complete TCP/IP for it, for example. 2) I very much want to be able to telnet into the Pi and log into RSX11. My goal is to be able to log in, run EDT sessions, and maybe get back into my old BASIC programming chops (okay, and I also miss Macro-11). I've found a few references in archives to various TCP stacks, and a SHOW NETWORK is showing me an ethernet address. Do I have to hand-wace magic to get a stack up on that interface? This question is a bit more complex. You have two basic options: 1) Use an emulated terminal controller in simh, and have simh handle the mapping to a telnet server. This means that from the PDP-11 side, it just looks like you're connected to a normal serial port. telnet obviously works here, but you don't have any other TCP/IP services available. You'll essentially be running the telnet service on the host machine, so the address and port will be something on that machine. This obviously works for any PDP-11 OS which supports serial lines. 2) Use an emulated ethernet controller, and then run a TCP/IP inside the PDP-11 OS. This is pretty much only possible with RSX or Unix. That means you need to allocate a separate IP address for the PDP-11, and you need to make sure the MAC address makes sense, which might be an important question if you also have DECnet around. You also need to setup and start all services on the PDP-11, so this is a bit more work, but it will result in a system with more functions, features and capabilities. If this isn't the right place for this, please let me know (I actually rummaged around Reddit looking for a good forum there, but doesn't look like /r/pdp11 is particularly active. Looking forward to workoing with folks! This place is as good as any. So keep firing off questions, and I'll answer. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] simh and RSTS/E - problems with getting additional terminal interfaces to work
In RSTS/E, you have DZ11 lines, but they are configured for a CSR of 160100 and 160110, and vectors are 400 and 410. I bet that does not match what simh thinks... Johnny On 2019-12-09 11:25, Trevor Warwick wrote: I'm using "PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Current", and getting the same results on Win10 and Linux. I'm booting the full RSTS V7.0-07 disk, built by by Chuck Cranor. This boots fine, and I can log in on the simulated console. However, I can't persuade it to recognise any additional terminals. If I use: set dli enable set dli lines=8 attach dli 10001 Then I get a telnet server appearing on port 10001, which prints "Connected to the PDP-11 simulator DLI device, line 0" when I boot the RSTS system disk. However, there's no response to any input once RSTS is up and running. I've also tried using a DZ11 set dz lines=8 attach dz 10002 and in that case I don't even get the "Connected" line from simh. RSTS can apparently see the hardware though: RSTS V7.0-07 llama (DL0) Option: HA HARDWR suboption? LI Name Address Vector Comments TT: 177560 060 RK: 177400 220 RK05F units: none RL: 174400 160 Units: 0(RL01) 1(RL01) 2(RL01) 3(RL01) RM: 177440 210 Units: 0(RK06) 1(RK06) 2(RK06) 3(RK06) 4(RK06) 5(RK06) 6(RK06) 7(RK06) RR: 176700 254 BAE=+050, Units: 0(RM03) 1(RM03) 2(RM03) 3(RM03) 4(RM03) 5(RM03) 6(RM03) 7(RM03) TM: 172520 224 PR0: 177550 070 PP0: 177554 074 LP0: 177514 200 RX0: 177170 264 KL0: 176500 300 KL1: 176510 310 KL2: 176520 320 KL3: 176530 330 KL4: 176540 340 KL5: 176550 350 KL6: 176560 360 KL7: 176570 370 DZ0: 160100 400 DZ1: 160110 410 KW11L 177546 100 SR 177570 DR 177570 Hertz = 60. Other: FPU, SL, 22-Bit Addressing, Cache w/address, System ID = 4660 If I boot an RSX-11M disk, then additional terminal interfaces seem to work fine, so the problem seems specific to RSTS. I saw references in the list archive to other pre-built systems on www.rsts.org <http://www.rsts.org> but that doesn't seem to be available at the moment, so I can't try another build right now. Any clues on what I'm missing ? Thanks, Trevor ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] RQDX1 or RQDX2
Thanks. There gotta be something closer than AUS though... Although I
have a friend that is about to relocate from Melbourne to Denmark in a
few weeks time... :-)
But nah. Definitely should be possible to find something closer. I know
there is stuff in Sweden, if I just had the time...
Johnny
On 2019-12-06 03:52, malc...@avitech.com.au wrote:
I can help with an RQDX2. I would need about a week to retrieve it from
storage and test it.
I'm in Australia. Postage won't be cheap. I won't need it back though,
if cost is an issue.
Malcolm.
*From:*Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom
Perrine
*Sent:* Friday, 6 December 2019 13:25
*To:* Johnny Billquist
*Cc:* info-pd...@dbit.com; hec...@update.uu.se; simh; [PiDP-11]
*Subject:* Re: [Simh] RQDX1 or RQDX2
I saw your note - I also need a Modula-2 compiler. I'm looking for the
Zurich one for UNIX/VAX. Is that the one you may have?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:18 PM Johnny Billquist <mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote:
Ok. So I had plans to locate an RQDX[12] during my christmas vacation.
Unfortunately, events outside of my control have forced me to change my
christmas plans, and I no longer will be able to get my hands on an
RQDX[12] by my original plan.
I have a bunch of RD53 disks that I want to dump out, and I need such a
controller, so now I'm searching if there is anyone who could lend me
one for a couple of weeks or so.
I'm located in Switzerland, near Zurich. Anyone close by would
obviously
make it easy, but if anyone would be willing to ship from somewhere
else, I'd be just as happy. I could pay for the shipping and return
shipping, but can't really afford anything beyond that right now.
I hope to locate a few missing files from a Modula-2 compiler among
other things on those disks, and if found, it will be shared with
anyone
interested.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se> ||
Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
Simh mailing list
Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com>
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
Simh mailing list
Simh@trailing-edge.com
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Re: [Simh] RQDX1 or RQDX2
Right. Good point. I hadn't even reflected on that early firmware versions for the RQDX1 can't handle the RD53. Johnny On 2019-12-06 04:24, Chris Zach wrote: I'll check in the attic tomorrow, I think I have an RQDX2. You'll need a RQDX2 with the -YA or better ROMs to be able to read an RD53, the RQDX1 could only do the RD50-52. C On 12/5/2019 10:08 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: Sorry, no. Maybe I should have mentioned that this is for a PDP-11 RSX version. I have most of the files, but are missing a few. Johnny On 2019-12-06 03:25, Tom Perrine wrote: I saw your note - I also need a Modula-2 compiler. I'm looking for the Zurich one for UNIX/VAX. Is that the one you may have? On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:18 PM Johnny Billquist mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote: Ok. So I had plans to locate an RQDX[12] during my christmas vacation. Unfortunately, events outside of my control have forced me to change my christmas plans, and I no longer will be able to get my hands on an RQDX[12] by my original plan. I have a bunch of RD53 disks that I want to dump out, and I need such a controller, so now I'm searching if there is anyone who could lend me one for a couple of weeks or so. I'm located in Switzerland, near Zurich. Anyone close by would obviously make it easy, but if anyone would be willing to ship from somewhere else, I'd be just as happy. I could pay for the shipping and return shipping, but can't really afford anything beyond that right now. I hope to locate a few missing files from a Modula-2 compiler among other things on those disks, and if found, it will be shared with anyone interested. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se> || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com> http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] RQDX1 or RQDX2
Sorry, no. Maybe I should have mentioned that this is for a PDP-11 RSX
version. I have most of the files, but are missing a few.
Johnny
On 2019-12-06 03:25, Tom Perrine wrote:
I saw your note - I also need a Modula-2 compiler. I'm looking for the
Zurich one for UNIX/VAX. Is that the one you may have?
On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 4:18 PM Johnny Billquist <mailto:b...@softjar.se>> wrote:
Ok. So I had plans to locate an RQDX[12] during my christmas vacation.
Unfortunately, events outside of my control have forced me to change my
christmas plans, and I no longer will be able to get my hands on an
RQDX[12] by my original plan.
I have a bunch of RD53 disks that I want to dump out, and I need such a
controller, so now I'm searching if there is anyone who could lend me
one for a couple of weeks or so.
I'm located in Switzerland, near Zurich. Anyone close by would
obviously
make it easy, but if anyone would be willing to ship from somewhere
else, I'd be just as happy. I could pay for the shipping and return
shipping, but can't really afford anything beyond that right now.
I hope to locate a few missing files from a Modula-2 compiler among
other things on those disks, and if found, it will be shared with
anyone
interested.
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se <mailto:b...@softjar.se> ||
Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
Simh mailing list
Simh@trailing-edge.com <mailto:Simh@trailing-edge.com>
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
___
Simh mailing list
Simh@trailing-edge.com
http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
[Simh] RQDX1 or RQDX2
Ok. So I had plans to locate an RQDX[12] during my christmas vacation. Unfortunately, events outside of my control have forced me to change my christmas plans, and I no longer will be able to get my hands on an RQDX[12] by my original plan. I have a bunch of RD53 disks that I want to dump out, and I need such a controller, so now I'm searching if there is anyone who could lend me one for a couple of weeks or so. I'm located in Switzerland, near Zurich. Anyone close by would obviously make it easy, but if anyone would be willing to ship from somewhere else, I'd be just as happy. I could pay for the shipping and return shipping, but can't really afford anything beyond that right now. I hope to locate a few missing files from a Modula-2 compiler among other things on those disks, and if found, it will be shared with anyone interested. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
