[RCSE] F3B winches???
During the discussion about limiting winch strength and reducing line breaks there have been several references to F3B winches. I am not familiar with F3B flying or the winch specs. Can someone explain F3B or point me to a site where I can read about it? Best Regards, Ed Anderson
Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting
At the Nats last year Jim Thomas takes the mic and settles the crowd for a big announcement, most pause to listen - he say's ' Gordy is on the field ' not more than 2 seconds later someone utters -- ' has he popped off yet '. I guess these are the times I remember about the Nats. Sorry Gordy - couldn't resist - we love ya !! Ron Mong Columbus, OH - Original Message - From: S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jerry Shape [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring Exchange soaring@airage.com Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 1:55 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting At 08:00 PM 12/21/2007, Jerry Shape wrote: Dayton CDs (me)also threaten contestants at every pilots meeting not to break my lines or pop off . Does that work for Gordy!?!? :-) Mr Popovalot. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Re: Post curing West System 105/206
Are you completely set on using West? As I recall (although I don't recall where the numberrs come from) West System doesn't develop properties with post curing as nice as some other epoxies. For instance, I have an epoxy mix picked up from a boatbuilder I know which has a considerably higher glass transition temperature after post cure. ( but again, it's been so long I don't recall exactly what those properties or cure temps are). For a small job like this, I'd probably use Phase Two from an outfit called System Three. You will get a paper telling you exactly how to postcure it. (Two hours at 140F, but it has to be that warm all the way through). An unusual property is that it becomes relatively opaque because of the two phases, which are supposed to make it tougher than a singly phase epoxy. Not sure if this works in terms of strength and toughness, but it handles ok. Heat deflection temp claimed as 64C (147F) For a big job I'd go back to that boatbuilder I know or else look into Raka as mentioned below. If I thought the volume was going to be pretty high I'd definitely look into prepregs. Probably save a lot of labor and get better properties too, although I haven't played with prepregs yet. Your oven might not be enough for them, though. I seem to recall MGS (sp?) epoxies are made for postcure as well. You might try Raka. The proprieter is willing to talk to you on the phone, and can recommend temperatures etc. for various epoxies he has. If you pick the right materials and cure it right, you can use colors other than white, although I certainly wouldn't do it with West. If you must use West, it sounds like 120F for 4 to 8 hours is good. I found it in the following newsletter from West: http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/18/pdf/tanks.pdf Now, some of that epoxy is mixed slightly different, but not much. Don't exceed 140F: http://westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/moreinfo/coldtemp.htm (that's a clue that you may not get great thermal properties) Note that, according to the physical properties on the West site, 105/206 is only good for 123F heat deflection temperature. That's why we need to keep it white! I think, given the labor involved, that if the results are important it's a false economy to use the epoxy on hand. Nothing wrong with WEST if you aren't going to use the result in high temps or need really high properties in the resin. In that case I'd use the ordinary version of RAKA because I've used it with good results in the past and it was cheaper. I realize that you probably have 10X the practical experience laying up glass stuff that I have, but I've looked into the post curing thing a little bit. Even if you stick with WEST, if you get it to 100F overnight it will be reasonably well cured overnight. But I understand post curing works best AFTER the initial cure. Bill Bunny Kuhlman wrote: Granddaughter Alyssa and I are involved in vacuum bagging processes: carbon fiber spar caps, fiberglass over foam flying surfaces, and a molded all glass fuselage pod and boom. We're using West System 105/206 for all of the components. We know that post curing - higher than room temperature heat over several hours to a full day - will make the epoxy matrix stronger, but after a long web search have been unable to get firm numbers for either the temperature required or the recommended time period. If anyone can pass on this information, we'd very much appreciate it. We have our hot box made and can take it up to 160 degrees F. Many thanks in advance! -- Bill Bunny Kuhlman RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting
How about, Popovratti. - Original Message - From: S Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jerry Shape [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring Exchange soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 11:55 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting At 08:00 PM 12/21/2007, Jerry Shape wrote: Dayton CDs (me)also threaten contestants at every pilots meeting not to break my lines or pop off . Does that work for Gordy!?!? :-) Mr Popovalot. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Post curing West System 105/206
Bill, I use Pro Set and it has all the post curing information right on it. Its a two phase curing process and I don't remember exactly what the times are, but I seem to remember 105 degrees for 24 hours. It does depend on the brand and model. As far as I remember, West Systems doesn't really benefit from a post cure under heat. Have fun/Anker Anker Bill Bunny Kuhlman wrote: Granddaughter Alyssa and I are involved in vacuum bagging processes: carbon fiber spar caps, fiberglass over foam flying surfaces, and a molded all glass fuselage pod and boom. We're using West System 105/206 for all of the components. We know that post curing - higher than room temperature heat over several hours to a full day - will make the epoxy matrix stronger, but after a long web search have been unable to get firm numbers for either the temperature required or the recommended time period. If anyone can pass on this information, we'd very much appreciate it. We have our hot box made and can take it up to 160 degrees F. Many thanks in advance! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] F3B winches???
This link should be helpful http://www.google.com/search?q=f3b+winch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: During the discussion about limiting winch strength and reducing line breaks there have been several references to F3B winches. I am not familiar with F3B flying or the winch specs. Can someone explain F3B or point me to a site where I can read about it? Best Regards, Ed Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] F3B winches??? Appropriate for TD purposes?
On the subject of resisting down to F3B strength: I understand the argument and rationale. But This is a problem. F3B winches are very well built and designed. They are very efficient. The motors selected for use are already very close to the resisted number. We play all kinds of games with drum size to keep the motor/drum turning. If it weren't for the mono, we'd get virtually no launch at all. The typical club winch with all kinds of slop in the drum, and about 4 miles of braided nylon (creating about a 6 inch drum, and a very short drum making the line buildup quickly, the line pulling up on the draggy fan belt style brake, and a retriever dragging the whole thing down... resisted all the way down to F3B resistance Well...can you say stalled winch? Again - I understand the rationale, and it is very logical. But not practical. I think you'll find that some testing is in order to figure out what the resistance numbers should be for a typical club winch configuration. I do hope that the SWC guys took this into account. Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] F3B winches??? From: Jon Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, December 22, 2007 8:21 am To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Soaring@airage.com This link should be helpful http://www.google.com/search?q=f3b+winch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: During the discussion about limiting winch strength and reducing line breaks there have been several references to F3B winches. I am not familiar with F3B flying or the winch specs. Can someone explain F3B or point me to a site where I can read about it? Best Regards, Ed Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] F3B winches??? Appropriate for TD purposes?
OTOH... I would say real F3B winches are quite good for TD, especially for woody planes, if .. (BIG IF) the pilot does not load up a lot of tension on the line. We've found my F3B winch a perfect for launching Oly 2's in my club, as the power is low and the line is stretchy. Daryl does make an excellent point that a detuned TD winch with a narrow spool braided line, might cause some issues with heavier stronger planes. Daryl Perkins wrote: On the subject of resisting down to F3B strength: RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as the F3B winches. The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS draws way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B winches are the resistors will probably get smoked... I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS. One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has taught me a little change is a lot of power. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Long, but read it anyway. Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest concepts not only add a substantial cost to each winch an more potential failure points which could put a winch in a contest situation down for the day, where a broken line can usually repaired within a few minutes. Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line breakage and make winches more user friendly are: 1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the FLS and the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the resistance specs for F3B winches. Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple with a pair of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B winch certification that should be available to proof the setup. AMA has one. The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) requirements for F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could be used for all TD comps,an F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp also. The stainless rod is also unaffected by the heat generated by contest loads and cannot fail during heavy use. Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads CHEAP ! I have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's ease of installation and cost. 2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, allows for lower lb test line which will cost less and more importantly allow some stretch at the launch release giving the pilot a better choice on the amount of line tension preferred, instead of jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also could be an easier launch with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes. This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful results. I see where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is supplying the SWC comp with a winch resistor system and that will be the start of something. We have to quit talking about this and get it done. I propose that we get the Soaring Nats winches resistorised for this years Soaring Nats and with lighter line than the 300 lb test line that we have migrated to this last year. Regards, Dave Corven. Also Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. -- Original message -- From: Marc Gellart [EMAIL PROTECTED] From what I have seen in this thread, the two real simple, straight forward suggesions seem to be, lower capacity batteries like used in B, and lighter line, like 200# (which the Dayton club already uses and it works just fine for them except they have a great grass field and and no humps in it). Personnally I just hate downwind launches (my problem huh?) and tension limiters sound worse than retrievers to keep working correctly. I am really interested to hear how SWC goes to see how Rick's resistor set up works, that might work just fine. I've had my arse chewed on privitaly about somethings here, heh, these are just ideas, right? Still wished we all had the B winches though, then there is no problem. Marc Have a great Christmas, and holiday with your families! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] F3B winches??? Appropriate for TD purposes?
Daryl does make an excellent point that a detuned TD winch with a narrow spool braided line, might cause some issues with heavier stronger planes. Isn't that the objective?? Keep lines from breaking and strong planes from launching high. In the end what I know is that no matter what you do to the winches the same guys are still going to win. The sad and hurtful truth is that they are just better pilots than the rest of us. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Re JW/NZ Quake
I last talked to Joe at the Nats last summer. At that time, he said that they would be leaving for New Zealand the week after Visalia and I saw that his scores at Visalia were posted on the internet. Chuck Anderson At 09:23 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: His last main event in the US was at the June XC event at Montague this year. He won everything. I'm pretty sure I saw him at Visalia this year. I could be wrong, I spent a lot of time at the beer tent. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Denny Zech
Denny, I'm sure I've spelled your name wrong, but could you please contact me by e-mail or call me @ 248-515-2153 cell at your earliest convenience ? Regards, Dave Corven. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
Jeff, I had a FLS wade built motor powered winch with a wide drum that I used with mono for F3B and with braided 200 lb test line for TD. this winch had a 1/2 inch dia threaded stainless steel rod as a resistor to make it F3B legal and it was never disconnected. 1) You can't hurt the S/S rod with the heat generated by the hardest use at a contest and, 2) you won't hurt the motor, brushes or any other part of the motor with the S/S rod. 3) You will find that you can launch any of the current breed or future sailplanes with this package assuming the use of a properly built FLS motor on braided 200 lb test line. 4) Battery life will depend on the battery capacity you choose. Small chargers on the winch line and a small generator near by all but eliminates that question. Jeff, I have done this and I have built a new winch that will prove again, my plan to be workable. Bosch motors used in F3B may not provide the same power that the FLS motor can using braided line due to the larger armature and field dia's on the FLS motor but here again, the motor of choice in the US is the FLS so until we get off our cans and start experimenting with the variables what will get done. I have started with my testing again, HAVE YOU ? Let us know when you have some results to report and I will do the same. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as the F3B winches. The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS draws way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B winches are the resistors will probably get smoked... I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS. One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has taught me a little change is a lot of power. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Long, but read it anyway. Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest concepts not only add a substantial cost to each winch an more potential failure points which could put a winch in a contest situation down for the day, where a broken line can usually repaired within a few minutes. Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line breakage and make winches more user friendly are: 1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the FLS and the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the resistance specs for F3B winches. Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple with a pair of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B winch certification that should be available to proof the setup. AMA has one. The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) requirements for F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could be used for all TD comps,an F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp also. The stainless rod is also unaffected by the heat generated by contest loads and cannot fail during heavy use. Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads CHEAP ! I have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's ease of installation and cost. 2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, allows for lower lb test line which will cost less and more importantly allow some stretch at the launch release giving the pilot a better choice on the amount of line tension preferred, instead of jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also could be an easier launch with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes. This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful results. I see where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is supplying the SWC comp with a winch resistor system and that will be the start of something. We have to quit talking about this and get it done. I propose that we get the Soaring Nats winches resistorised for this years Soaring Nats and with lighter line than the 300 lb test line that we have migrated to this last year. Regards, Dave Corven. Also Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. -- Original message -- From: Marc Gellart [EMAIL PROTECTED] From what I have seen in this thread, the two real simple, straight forward suggesions seem to be, lower capacity batteries like used in B, and lighter line, like 200# (which the Dayton club already uses and it works just fine for them except they have a great grass field and and no humps in it). Personnally I just hate downwind launches (my problem huh?) and tension limiters sound worse than retrievers to keep working correctly. I am really interested to hear how SWC goes to see how
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
There's a much better method than using a resistor. The resistor generates heat that is pure wasted energy. Instead, an automatic pulser that cuts the power to the solenoids when the current exceeds a certain value is a much better solution. There's an even better advantage to this solution because you can adjust the maximum current depending on what is being launched. An even more advanced concept is to have a foot pedal that isn't simply and on/off switch, but a rheostat that controls the current limiter. I actually have one of these sitting in my garage. Anker Jeff Steifel wrote: Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as the F3B winches. The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS draws way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B winches are the resistors will probably get smoked... I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS. One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has taught me a little change is a lot of power. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Long, but read it anyway. Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest concepts not only add a substantial cost to each winch an more potential failure points which could put a winch in a contest situation down for the day, where a broken line can usually repaired within a few minutes. Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line breakage and make winches more user friendly are: 1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the FLS and the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the resistance specs for F3B winches. Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple with a pair of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B winch certification that should be available to proof the setup. AMA has one. The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) requirements for F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could be used for all TD comps,an F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp also. The stainless rod is also unaffected by the heat generated by contest loads and cannot fail during heavy use. Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads CHEAP ! I have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's ease of installation and cost. 2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, allows for lower lb test line which will cost less and more importantly allow some stretch at the launch release giving the pilot a better choice on the amount of line tension preferred, instead of jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also could be an easier launch with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes. This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful results. I see where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is supplying the SWC comp with a winch resistor system and that will be the start of something. We have to quit talking about this and get it done. I propose that we get the Soaring Nats winches resistorised for this years Soaring Nats and with lighter line than the 300 lb test line that we have migrated to this last year. Regards, Dave Corven. Also Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. -- Original message -- From: Marc Gellart [EMAIL PROTECTED] From what I have seen in this thread, the two real simple, straight forward suggesions seem to be, lower capacity batteries like used in B, and lighter line, like 200# (which the Dayton club already uses and it works just fine for them except they have a great grass field and and no humps in it). Personnally I just hate downwind launches (my problem huh?) and tension limiters sound worse than retrievers to keep working correctly. I am really interested to hear how SWC goes to see how Rick's resistor set up works, that might work just fine. I've had my arse chewed on privitaly about somethings here, heh, these are just ideas, right? Still wished we all had the B winches though, then there is no problem. Marc Have a great Christmas, and holiday with your families! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
One big advantage of the resistor is that the heat goes into the air - not into the windings and brushes when you start pulsing the juice for a power limit. Dick Barker HLG doesn't need any stinking winch! At 12:38 PM -0500 12/22/07, Anker Berg-Sonne wrote: There's a much better method than using a resistor. The resistor generates heat that is pure wasted energy. Instead, an automatic pulser that cuts the power to the solenoids when the current exceeds a certain value is a much better solution. There's an even better advantage to this solution because you can adjust the maximum current depending on what is being launched. An even more advanced concept is to have a foot pedal that isn't simply and on/off switch, but a rheostat that controls the current limiter. I actually have one of these sitting in my garage. Anker RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
Dave, all well and good, but the average club/pilot doesn't have a wide drum only a drum that equals the length of the long shaft. Hell if we use a wide drum there's no need for a long shaft, just build an F3B winch. I have used my F3B winch with braided on occasion, it doesn't have the zip that mono has for sure. so I think that moving the resistance slightly lower to give ample power without breaking the line is in order. I noticed that Daryl posted the same, and I would think that Daryl is certainly knowledgeable about winches and launching. I don't believe that the current FAI setup on a Ford with Braided would be strong enough. I would not want to get out of shape and not have enough power to pull me back on. This is where a real lack of power is a problem. Again I believe that you can lower the resistance on an FLS to get the power to where it won't break lines, and will make everyone happy (ok not everyone, that'll never happen). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeff, I had a FLS wade built motor powered winch with a wide drum that I used with mono for F3B and with braided 200 lb test line for TD. this winch had a 1/2 inch dia threaded stainless steel rod as a resistor to make it F3B legal and it was never disconnected. 1) You can't hurt the S/S rod with the heat generated by the hardest use at a contest and, 2) you won't hurt the motor, brushes or any other part of the motor with the S/S rod. 3) You will find that you can launch any of the current breed or future sailplanes with this package assuming the use of a properly built FLS motor on braided 200 lb test line. 4) Battery life will depend on the battery capacity you choose. Small chargers on the winch line and a small generator near by all but eliminates that question. Jeff, I have done this and I have built a new winch that will prove again, my plan to be workable. Bosch motors used in F3B may not provide the same power that the FLS motor can using braided line due to the larger armature and field dia's on the FLS motor but here again, the motor of choice in the US is the FLS so until we get off our cans and start experimenting with the variables what will get done. I have started with my testing again, HAVE YOU ? Let us know when you have some results to report and I will do the same. Regards, Dave Corven. -- Original message -- From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as the F3B winches. The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS draws way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B winches are the resistors will probably get smoked... I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS. One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has taught me a little change is a lot of power. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Long, but read it anyway. Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest concepts not only add a substantial cost to each winch an more potential failure points which could put a winch in a contest situation down for the day, where a broken line can usually repaired within a few minutes. Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line breakage and make winches more user friendly are: 1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the FLS and the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the resistance specs for F3B winches. Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple with a pair of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B winch certification that should be available to proof the setup. AMA has one. The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) requirements for F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could be used for all TD comps,an F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp also. The stainless rod is also unaffected by the heat generated by contest loads and cannot fail during heavy use. Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads CHEAP ! I have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's ease of installation and cost. 2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, allows for lower lb test line which will cost less and more importantly allow some stretch at the launch release giving the pilot a better choice on the amount of line tension preferred, instead of jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also could be an easier launch with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes. This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful results. I see where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is supplying the SWC comp with a
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
That resistor rod is a really good idea -- simple, effective and robust. A lot of the discussion about launching has been the effect on the line but that's the least of our problems. We've put stronger line on our winches -- we're at 270lb test at the moment -- but all that's done for us is that the motors and other mechanical components are now breaking up. This is starting to get expensive, and for what? So a handful of people can launch planes a little higher than they might otherwise be able to do, planes that are supposed to be high performance sailplanes that have a low enough sink rate that they should be able to cruise around for many minutes while their owners look for lift. (They should maybe try flying a plane that's a little more challenging -- 2 meter or an Easy Glider, something that demands you get everything right or you're on the ground. Those big moldies are way too easy to fly.) Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Resisting the SWC...A Better Solution!
High Starts. No broken lines, you can pre-determine the stretch pace count. Marks got some great ones. The launches will be lower so those of you who think it will be a more challenging contest and give you a better chance at glory will be really happy. No resistors, no tension limiters, no new drums, prettier parachutes, and a lot cheaper too. Everyone is happy (even our Chiropractors!)...and no one attends the event. Or man up. Get the good line, have someone with a big plane really put the load to them before the contest, have some spare winches and plan for quick re-lights , a broken line or pop off become the luck of the draw advantage, instead of flying it out causing a friend to have a lousy expensive weekend. I'd spend money on attending even :-) Gordy Sunny and warm in Louisville today! Got a flight in even..some honey-do's done, some Christmas shopping and even took the motor bike out for a fun ride! You? **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
Actually I haven't proposed that we use specific F3B winches for TD, but to use the F3B resistance spec. as base line to better control and equalize the FLS powered winches for our US TD comps and allow the lower lb test line usage. A side effect is that this would allow a FLS powered winch to be used for local F3B and F3J comps to hopefully get more people an opprotunity to get involved in FAI activities. Anker wrote the following: There's a much better method than using a resistor. The resistor generates heat that is pure wasted energy. Instead, an automatic pulser that cuts the power to the solenoids when the current exceeds a certain value is a much better solution. There's an even better advantage to this solution because you can adjust the maximum current depending on what is being launched. An even more advanced concept is to have a foot pedal that isn't simply and on/off switch, but a rheostat that controls the current limiter. I actually have one of these sitting in my garage. I can appreciate the above concept in theory but again it is bound to be more expensive to fab and install and more important it will be some what more fragile and if it fails to an all on condition, OOOPS ! The S/S threaded rod is cheap, can't fail to an all on or off condition, read reliability, it is manually adjustable with a pair of small wrenches, once set it can't change value and since it is exposed to the air, with especially the threads, it is much better cooling than say for instance a so;id bar. Employing the KISS method by Keepng It Simple Stupid is always a better way to go. Regards, Dave Corven. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Resisting the SWC...A Better Solution!
Gordy, For several weekends now, this is exactly what has been done. Testing... Visalia configurated lines (heavier line on bottom, to turnaround, lighter/stretchier line to launch hook). Rick Bothel has also come up with a really nice configuration for keeping lines up off the ground. The winch no longer sits in the grass, but up on a stand., The turn-arounds are on raised tri-pods... The effect is that a lot less string drags on the ground. We've been testing this setup in the world's toughest environment, the AZ destert. That's right, NO GRASS, only rocks a dirt and roots to snag on. I've have my Icon (yeah, the OLD version), Darwin's had his Sharon's, and various others have had their full-pedal-launch moldies out there... landing on a pad of carpet we threw down to save our planes... All THIS, so you the SWC Attendeee will have a better experience for your hard earned modeling dollar. Still testing this weekend, by the way screw christmas and family, we've got a TD Contest to prepare for. Skip (the lesser) Richards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: High Starts. No broken lines, you can pre-determine the stretch pace count. Marks got some great ones. The launches will be lower so those of you who think it will be a more challenging contest and give you a better chance at glory will be really happy. No resistors, no tension limiters, no new drums, prettier parachutes, and a lot cheaper too. Everyone is happy (even our Chiropractors!)...and no one attends the event. Or man up. Get the good line, have someone with a big plane really put the load to them before the contest, have some spare winches and plan for quick re-lights , a broken line or pop off become the luck of the draw advantage, instead of/ flying it out/ causing a friend to have a lousy expensive weekend. I'd spend money on attending even :-) Gordy Sunny and warm in Louisville today! Got a flight in even..some honey-do's done, some Christmas shopping and even took the motor bike out for a fun ride! You? See AOL's top rated recipes http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304 and easy ways to stay in shape http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop000303 for winter. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] SWC... Is Testing a Better Solution!
Gordy, For several weekends now, this is exactly what has been done. Testing... Visalia configurated lines (heavier line on bottom, to turnaround, lighter/stretchier line to launch hook). Rick Bothel has also come up with a really nice configuration for keeping lines up off the ground. The winch no longer sits in the grass, but up on a stand., The turn-arounds are on raised tri-pods... The effect is that a lot less string drags on the ground. We've been testing this setup in the world's toughest environment, the AZ destert. That's right, NO GRASS, only rocks a dirt and roots to snag on. I've have my Icon (yeah, the OLD version), Darwin's had his Sharon's, and various others have had their full-pedal-launch moldies out there... landing on a pad of carpet we threw down to save our planes... All THIS, so you the SWC Attendeee will have a better experience for your hard earned modeling dollar. Still testing this weekend, by the way screw christmas and family, we've got a TD Contest to prepare for. Skip (the lesser) Richards **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)
Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity
I've always heard that it's not good to stall your winch motor, that it's hard on the motor. Is this going to happen even more so if you detune the winches ? Just curious, and wondering if that would be a new issue for you guys to have to deal with then. Dave Hauch www.rc-builds.com - Original Message - From: Martin Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Soaring Exchange soaring@airage.com Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity That resistor rod is a really good idea -- simple, effective and robust. A lot of the discussion about launching has been the effect on the line but that's the least of our problems. We've put stronger line on our winches -- we're at 270lb test at the moment -- but all that's done for us is that the motors and other mechanical components are now breaking up. This is starting to get expensive, and for what? So a handful of people can launch planes a little higher than they might otherwise be able to do, planes that are supposed to be high performance sailplanes that have a low enough sink rate that they should be able to cruise around for many minutes while their owners look for lift. (They should maybe try flying a plane that's a little more challenging -- 2 meter or an Easy Glider, something that demands you get everything right or you're on the ground. Those big moldies are way too easy to fly.) Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Re:line breaks
I must agree with Brian. My first winch used a two inch diameter welded aluminum drum on a standard 12 volt Ford starter motor with a 12 volt battery. The two inch drum didn't produce enough line speed to break lines so easy and we used much smaller lines. We finally switched to larger drums when contestants began complaining about lack of power for good zooms. What they were really complaining about was the lack of line speeds. Unfortunately, the man who fabricated our drums is no longer with us and we never found another fabricator who could produce good welds and the end plates frequently broke. I still have the winch I built in 1972 with the welded aluminum 2 inch drum. We took it out last year and did a few launches and everybody was amazed at how much softer and smoother the launches were when compared to our standard winches. Maybe we should regulate the winch drum diameter. Chuck Anderson At 09:51 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: With all due respect I disagree Jeff. At our local field when we launch to the north, it takes all the line off the drum.. We get much softer, less powerful launches.. As opposed to when we launch to the south we still have approximately half the winch line left on the drum at the time of launch and the launches are much more aggressive/powerful and all the broken lines and broken models come at the south side.. Just My observations here in Tullahoma.. Brian Smith - Original Message - From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Charlie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:08 AM Subject: Re: ***SPAMTAGPTD: [RCSE] Winch/Sharon Charlie less drum diameter will lead to more line breaks. Since you have more torque you can now crank more turns in and break the line easier. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] New Horizon Eflite Blade 400
Guys, Forgive the Bandwidth intrusion but I know that some of you are interested in Rc Helicopters. About 20 minutes ago I heard the FedEx truck Backing up the driveway. There was a box waiting and I knew instantly it was my long awaited Blade 400. I opened the box in the drive way and pulled out a fully ready to Fly 3D RC Electric Helicopter. I grabbed the new DX6I manual to see where the flight mode switch, and Throttle hold switches were, kind of a safety deal for Helicopters, keeps em from Jumpin up and Biting you before you get to know them. I put the 4 AA cells in the Tx and fired it up. Sure enough there was a Blade 400 Model memory already installed. I then put the 3S 1800 LiPo pack into place on the Helicopter. I had the Throttle hold activated so I could check control throws, pitch range and Gyro direction.So I looked around, no kids or dogs, I lowered the throttle stick and clicked off the throttle hold. I slowly brought the R's up watching the machine to make sure everything was stuck on tight and everything was in balance. The Blade features a super nice soft start ESC, at half throttle the Blade was in the Hover. What a cool helicopter the head tracked, and the gyro sensitivity was acceptable. I took it up did some flybys back in to the hover it was pirouetting around me like We were long time friends. So I landed it, took the battery off the vehicle to charge, and came in here to tell you about it. It is impressive that the Eflite gang can send out a totally set up Helicopter ready to fly out of the Box. With so many potential problems in setting up a machine this complex, this has to be heralded as quite an achievement. By the way this is a real fly in the wind sport machine. Mine winds a little higher that I would expect on approach but what the heck, I will now read the Manual and figure out how to adjust the throttle curve on the low end. Its even sweeter that this guy is on 2.4, and it looks like the Dx6 I has 10 model memories with Airplane and Helicopter basic software. So get some stick time on one of the coaxial indoor Helis like the Blade CX, and then get ready to move up. Darwin you need one of these!! Just wanted to share this... Merry Christmas to you...and Merry Christmas to me, I know what I am going to be doing. Larry Jolly **See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)
Re: [RCSE] New Horizon Eflite Blade 400
Very cool, sounds like I need a new toy! ;-) At 05:30 PM 12/22/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Guys, Forgive the Bandwidth intrusion but I know that some of you are interested in Rc Helicopters. About 20 minutes ago I heard the FedEx truck Backing up the driveway. There was a box waiting and I knew instantly it was my long awaited Blade 400. I opened the box in the drive way and pulled out a fully ready to Fly 3D RC Electric Helicopter. I grabbed the new DX6I manual to see where the flight mode switch, and Throttle hold switches were, kind of a safety deal for Helicopters, keeps em from Jumpin up and Biting you before you get to know them. I put the 4 AA cells in the Tx and fired it up. Sure enough there was a Blade 400 Model memory already installed. I then put the 3S 1800 LiPo pack into place on the Helicopter. I had the Throttle hold activated so I could check control throws, pitch range and Gyro direction.So I looked around, no kids or dogs, I lowered the throttle stick and clicked off the throttle hold. I slowly brought the R's up watching the machine to make sure everything was stuck on tight and everything was in balance. The Blade features a super nice soft start ESC, at half throttle the Blade was in the Hover. What a cool helicopter the head tracked, and the gyro sensitivity was acceptable. I took it up did some flybys back in to the hover it was pirouetting around me like We were long time friends. So I landed it, took the battery off the vehicle to charge, and came in here to tell you about it. It is impressive that the Eflite gang can send out a totally set up Helicopter ready to fly out of the Box. With so many potential problems in setting up a machine this complex, this has to be heralded as quite an achievement. By the way this is a real fly in the wind sport machine. Mine winds a little higher that I would expect on approach but what the heck, I will now read the Manual and figure out how to adjust the throttle curve on the low end. Its even sweeter that this guy is on 2.4, and it looks like the Dx6 I has 10 model memories with Airplane and Helicopter basic software. So get some stick time on one of the coaxial indoor Helis like the Blade CX, and then get ready to move up. Darwin you need one of these!! Just wanted to share this... Merry Christmas to you...and Merry Christmas to me, I know what I am going to be doing. Larry Jolly -- See AOL's http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304top rated recipes and http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aoltop000303easy ways to stay in shape for winter. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net
Re: [RCSE] Re:line breaks
Sorry I'm not buying it. My planes stall the winch, with a smaller drum, I get to turn it. We don't use light line anymore, so line speed isn't an issue. The line creates the line speed by the amount it puts on the drum. During the morning, a bigger drum makes sense, during the noon baloon, 2 or 1.75 During wind 2 or 1.75 Unless you have dead air ,or down wind the 2 - 1.75 drums will provide a better launch on the line we use. I stall the winch, and have to push it through to get it moving. Chuck Anderson wrote: I must agree with Brian. My first winch used a two inch diameter welded aluminum drum on a standard 12 volt Ford starter motor with a 12 volt battery. The two inch drum didn't produce enough line speed to break lines so easy and we used much smaller lines. We finally switched to larger drums when contestants began complaining about lack of power for good zooms. What they were really complaining about was the lack of line speeds. Unfortunately, the man who fabricated our drums is no longer with us and we never found another fabricator who could produce good welds and the end plates frequently broke. I still have the winch I built in 1972 with the welded aluminum 2 inch drum. We took it out last year and did a few launches and everybody was amazed at how much softer and smoother the launches were when compared to our standard winches. Maybe we should regulate the winch drum diameter. Chuck Anderson At 09:51 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote: With all due respect I disagree Jeff. At our local field when we launch to the north, it takes all the line off the drum.. We get much softer, less powerful launches.. As opposed to when we launch to the south we still have approximately half the winch line left on the drum at the time of launch and the launches are much more aggressive/powerful and all the broken lines and broken models come at the south side.. Just My observations here in Tullahoma.. Brian Smith - Original Message - From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Charlie [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: soaring@airage.com Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:08 AM Subject: Re: ***SPAMTAGPTD: [RCSE] Winch/Sharon Charlie less drum diameter will lead to more line breaks. Since you have more torque you can now crank more turns in and break the line easier. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] line tension
I did and used such a winch over 30 years ago. Chuck Anderson At 02:40 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote: There have been various proposals about limiting winch current via a series resistor, but nobody has mentioned directly governing line tension. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Launching Sanity
I think Dennis Phelan, of Mike Lachowski Land, deserves the credit for the S/S threaded resistor rod rod for use with the FLS Motors. At least I got my first one from Dennis when he graduated to a F3B specific winch. So blame Dennis, not me. Regards, Dave Corven. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
