[RCSE] Launching Sanity

[mrmaserati]

I think Dennis Phelan, of Mike Lachowski Land, deserves the credit for the S/S 
threaded resistor rod rod for use with the FLS Motors.

At least I got my first one from Dennis when he graduated to a F3B specific 
winch.

So blame Dennis, not me.

Regards, Dave Corven.
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Re: [RCSE] line tension

[Chuck Anderson]

I did and used such a winch over 30 years ago.

Chuck Anderson


At 02:40 PM 12/21/2007, you wrote:
There have been various proposals about limiting winch current via a 
series resistor, but nobody has mentioned directly governing line tension.


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Re: [RCSE] Re:line breaks

[Jeff Steifel]

Sorry I'm not buying it.
My planes stall the winch, with a smaller drum, I get to turn it.
We don't use light line anymore, so line speed isn't an issue. The line 
creates the line speed by the amount it puts on the drum.


During the morning, a bigger drum makes sense, during the noon baloon, 
2" or 1.75"

During wind 2" or 1.75"

Unless you have dead air ,or down wind the 2" - 1.75" drums will provide 
a better launch on the line we use. I stall the winch, and have to push 
it through to get it moving.




Chuck Anderson wrote:
I must agree with Brian.  My first winch used a two inch diameter 
welded aluminum drum on a standard 12 volt Ford starter motor with a 
12 volt battery.  The two inch drum didn't produce enough line speed 
to break lines so easy and we used much smaller lines.  We finally 
switched to larger drums when contestants began complaining about lack 
of power for good zooms.  What they were really complaining about was 
the lack of line speeds.  Unfortunately, the man who fabricated our 
drums is no longer with us and we never found another fabricator who 
could produce good welds and the end plates frequently broke.  I still 
have the winch I built in 1972 with the welded aluminum 2 inch drum.  
We took it out last year and did a few launches and everybody was 
amazed at how much softer and smoother the launches were when compared 
to our standard winches.  Maybe we should regulate the  winch drum 
diameter.


Chuck Anderson

At 09:51 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote:

With all due respect I disagree Jeff.
At our local field when we launch to the north, it takes all the line 
off the drum.. We get much softer, less powerful launches.. As 
opposed to when we launch to the south we still have approximately 
half the winch line left on the drum at the time of launch and the 
launches are much more aggressive/powerful and all the broken lines 
and broken models come at the south side.. Just My observations here 
in Tullahoma.. Brian Smith

- Original Message - From: "Jeff Steifel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Charlie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: ***SPAMTAGPTD: [RCSE] Winch/Sharon


Charlie less drum diameter will lead to more line breaks. Since you 
have more torque you can now crank more turns in and break the line 
easier. -- Jeff Steifel


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--
Jeff Steifel

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Re: [RCSE] New Horizon Eflite Blade 400

[James V. Bacus]

Very cool, sounds like I need a new toy!  ;-)


At 05:30 PM 12/22/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Guys, Forgive the Bandwidth intrusion but I know that some of you 
are interested in Rc Helicopters. About 20 minutes ago I heard the 
FedEx truck Backing up the driveway. There was a box waiting and I 
knew instantly it was my long awaited Blade 400. I opened the box in 
the drive way and pulled out a fully ready to Fly 3D RC Electric 
Helicopter. I grabbed the new DX6I manual to see where the flight 
mode switch, and Throttle hold switches were, kind of a safety deal 
for Helicopters, keeps em from Jumpin up and Biting you before you 
get to know them. I put the 4 AA cells in the Tx and fired it up. 
Sure enough there was a Blade 400 Model memory already installed. I 
then put the 3S 1800 LiPo pack into place on the Helicopter. I had 
the Throttle hold activated so I could check control throws, pitch 
range and Gyro direction.So I looked around, no kids or dogs, I 
lowered the throttle stick and clicked off the throttle hold. I 
slowly brought the R's up watching the machine to make sure 
everything was stuck on tight and everything was in balance. The 
Blade features a super nice soft start ESC, at half throttle the 
Blade was in the Hover. What a cool helicopter the head tracked, and 
the gyro sensitivity was acceptable. I took it up did some flybys 
back in to the hover it was pirouetting around me like We were long 
time friends. So I landed it, took the battery off the vehicle to 
charge, and came in here to tell you about it. It is impressive that 
the Eflite gang can send out a totally set up Helicopter ready to 
fly out of the Box. With so many potential problems in setting up a 
machine this complex, this has to be heralded as quite an 
achievement.  By the way this is a real fly in the wind sport 
machine. Mine winds a little higher that I would expect on approach 
but what the heck, I will now read the Manual and figure out how to 
adjust the throttle curve on the low end. Its even sweeter that this 
guy is on 2.4, and it looks like the Dx6 I has 10 model memories 
with Airplane and Helicopter basic software. So get some stick time 
on one of the coaxial indoor Helis like the Blade CX, and then get 
ready to move up. Darwin you need one of these!! Just wanted to 
share this... Merry Christmas to you...and Merry Christmas to 
me, I know what I am going to be doing. Larry Jolly





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Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR
AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

[RCSE] New Horizon Eflite Blade 400

[LJolly]

Guys, Forgive the Bandwidth intrusion but I know that some of you are  
interested in Rc Helicopters. About 20 minutes ago I heard the FedEx truck  
Backing 
up the driveway. There was a box waiting and I knew instantly it was my  long 
awaited Blade 400. I opened the box in the drive way and pulled out a fully  
ready to Fly 3D RC Electric Helicopter. I grabbed the new DX6I manual to see  
where the flight mode switch, and Throttle hold switches were, kind of a safety 
 deal for Helicopters, keeps em from Jumpin up and Biting you before you get 
to  know them. I put the 4 AA cells in the Tx and fired it up. Sure enough 
there was  a Blade 400 Model memory already installed. I then put the 3S 1800 
LiPo pack  into place on the Helicopter. I had the Throttle hold activated so I 
could check  control throws, pitch range and Gyro direction.So I looked around, 
no kids or  dogs, I lowered the throttle stick and clicked off the throttle 
hold. I slowly  brought the R's up watching the machine to make sure everything 
was stuck on  tight and everything was in balance. The Blade features a super 
nice soft start  ESC, at half throttle the Blade was in the Hover. What a 
cool helicopter  the head tracked, and the gyro sensitivity was acceptable. I 
took it up did some  flybys back in to the hover it was pirouetting around me 
like We were long time  friends. So I landed it, took the battery off the 
vehicle 
to charge, and came in  here to tell you about it. It is impressive that the 
Eflite gang can send out a  totally set up Helicopter ready to fly out of the 
Box. With so many  potential problems in setting up a machine this complex, 
this has to be heralded  as quite an achievement.  By the way this is a real 
fly 
in the wind sport  machine. Mine winds a little higher that I would expect on 
approach but what the  heck, I will now read the Manual and figure out how to 
adjust the throttle curve  on the low end. Its even sweeter that this guy is 
on 2.4, and it looks like the  Dx6 I has 10 model memories with Airplane and 
Helicopter basic software. So get  some stick time on one of the coaxial indoor 
Helis like the Blade CX, and then  get ready to move up. Darwin you need one 
of these!! Just wanted to share  this... Merry Christmas to you...and 
Merry Christmas to me, I know  what I am going to be doing. Larry Jolly



**See AOL's top rated recipes 
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Re: [RCSE] Re:line breaks

[Chuck Anderson]

I must agree with Brian.  My first winch used a two inch diameter 
welded aluminum drum on a standard 12 volt Ford starter motor with a 
12 volt battery.  The two inch drum didn't produce enough line speed 
to break lines so easy and we used much smaller lines.  We finally 
switched to larger drums when contestants began complaining about 
lack of power for good zooms.  What they were really complaining 
about was the lack of line speeds.  Unfortunately, the man who 
fabricated our drums is no longer with us and we never found another 
fabricator who could produce good welds and the end plates frequently 
broke.  I still have the winch I built in 1972 with the welded 
aluminum 2 inch drum.  We took it out last year and did a few 
launches and everybody was amazed at how much softer and smoother the 
launches were when compared to our standard winches.  Maybe we should 
regulate the  winch drum diameter.


Chuck Anderson

At 09:51 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote:

With all due respect I disagree Jeff.
At our local field when we launch to the north, it takes all the 
line off the drum.. We get much softer, less powerful launches.. As 
opposed to when we launch to the south we still have approximately 
half the winch line left on the drum at the time of launch and the 
launches are much more aggressive/powerful and all the broken lines 
and broken models come at the south side.. Just My observations here 
in Tullahoma.. Brian Smith

- Original Message - From: "Jeff Steifel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Charlie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: ***SPAMTAGPTD: [RCSE] Winch/Sharon


Charlie less drum diameter will lead to more line breaks. Since you 
have more torque you can now crank more turns in and break the line 
easier. -- Jeff Steifel


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Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[davidhauch]

I've always heard that it's not good to stall your winch motor, that
it's hard on the motor.

Is this going to happen even more so if you detune the winches ?

Just curious, and wondering if that would be a new issue for you guys to 
have

to deal with then.

Dave Hauch
www.rc-builds.com
- Original Message - 
From: "Martin Usher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Soaring Exchange" 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity



That resistor rod is a really good idea -- simple, effective and robust.

A lot of the discussion about launching has been the effect on the line 
but that's the least of our problems. We've put stronger line on our 
winches -- we're at 270lb test at the moment -- but all that's done for us 
is that the motors and other mechanical components are now breaking up. 
This is starting to get expensive, and for what? So a handful of people 
can launch planes a little higher than they might otherwise be able to do, 
planes that are supposed to be high performance sailplanes that have a low 
enough sink rate that they should be able to cruise around for many 
minutes while their owners look for lift. (They should maybe try flying a 
plane that's a little more challenging -- 2 meter or an Easy Glider, 
something that demands you get everything right or you're on the ground. 
Those big moldies are way too easy to fly.)


Martin Usher
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[RCSE] SWC... Is Testing a Better Solution!"

[GordySoar]

Gordy,
For several weekends now, this is exactly what has been  done.  
Testing... Visalia configurated lines (heavier line on bottom,  to 
turnaround, lighter/stretchier line to launch hook).  Rick Bothel  has 
also come up with a really nice configuration for keeping lines up off  
the ground.  The winch no longer sits in the grass, but up on a  
stand.,   The turn-arounds are on raised tri-pods...  The  effect is that 
a lot less string drags on the ground.  We've been  testing this setup in 
the world's toughest environment, the AZ destert.  That's right, NO 
GRASS, only rocks a dirt and roots to snag on.  I've  have my Icon (yeah, 
the OLD version), Darwin's had his Sharon's, and various  others have had 
their full-pedal-launch moldies out there... landing on a  pad of carpet 
we threw down to save our planes...
All THIS, so you the  SWC Attendeee will have a better experience for 
your hard earned modeling  dollar.

Still testing this weekend, by the way screw christmas and  family, 
we've got a TD Contest to prepare for.
Skip (the lesser)  Richards





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Re: [RCSE] "Resisting the SWC...A Better Solution!"

[Skip Richards]

Gordy,
For several weekends now, this is exactly what has been done.  
Testing... Visalia configurated lines (heavier line on bottom, to 
turnaround, lighter/stretchier line to launch hook).  Rick Bothel has 
also come up with a really nice configuration for keeping lines up off 
the ground.  The winch no longer sits in the grass, but up on a 
stand.,   The turn-arounds are on raised tri-pods...  The effect is that 
a lot less string drags on the ground.  We've been testing this setup in 
the world's toughest environment, the AZ destert. That's right, NO 
GRASS, only rocks a dirt and roots to snag on.  I've have my Icon (yeah, 
the OLD version), Darwin's had his Sharon's, and various others have had 
their full-pedal-launch moldies out there... landing on a pad of carpet 
we threw down to save our planes...
All THIS, so you the SWC Attendeee will have a better experience for 
your hard earned modeling dollar.


Still testing this weekend, by the way screw christmas and family, 
we've got a TD Contest to prepare for.

Skip (the lesser) Richards

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

High Starts.
 
No broken lines, you can pre-determine the stretch pace count. Marks 
got some great ones.
 
The launches will be lower so those of you who think it will be a more 
challenging contest and give you a better chance at glory will be 
really happy.
 
No resistors, no tension limiters, no new drums, prettier parachutes, 
and a lot cheaper too.
 
Everyone is happy (even our Chiropractors!)...and no one attends the 
event.
 
Or man up.  Get the good line, have someone with a big plane really 
put the load to them before the contest,  have some spare winches and  
plan for quick re-lights , a broken line or pop off become the luck of 
the draw advantage, instead of/ flying it out/ causing a friend to 
have a lousy expensive weekend.
 
I'd spend money on attending even :-)


Gordy
Sunny and warm in Louisville today!  Got a flight in even..some 
honey-do's done, some Christmas shopping and even took the motor bike 
out for a fun ride!  You?





See AOL's top rated recipes 
 and 
easy ways to stay in shape 
 
for winter.

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Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[mrmaserati]

Actually I haven't proposed that we use specific F3B winches for TD, but to use 
the F3B resistance spec. as  base line to better control and equalize the FLS 
powered winches for our US TD comps and allow the lower lb test line usage.

A side effect is that this would allow a FLS powered winch to be used for local 
F3B and F3J comps to hopefully get more people an opprotunity to get involved 
in FAI activities.

Anker wrote the following:

There's a much better method than using a resistor. The resistor 
generates heat that is pure wasted energy. Instead, an automatic pulser 
that cuts the power to the solenoids when the current exceeds a certain 
value is a much better solution. There's an even better advantage to 
this solution because you can adjust the maximum current depending on 
what is being launched. An even more advanced concept is to have a foot 
pedal that isn't simply and on/off switch, but a rheostat that controls 
the current limiter. I actually have one of these sitting in my garage.

I can appreciate the above concept in theory but again it is bound to be more 
expensive to fab and install and "more important" it will be some what more 
fragile and if it fails to an all on condition, OOOPS !

The S/S threaded rod is cheap, can't fail to an all on or off condition, read 
reliability, it is manually adjustable with a pair of small wrenches, once set 
it can't change value and since it is exposed to the air, with especially the 
threads, it is much better cooling than say for instance a so;id bar.

Employing the KISS method by "Keepng It Simple Stupid" is always a better way 
to go.

Regards, Dave Corven.
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[RCSE] "Resisting the SWC...A Better Solution!"

[GordySoar]

High Starts.
 
No broken lines, you can pre-determine the stretch pace count. Marks got  
some great ones.
 
The launches will be lower so those of you who think it will be a more  
challenging contest and give you a better chance at glory will be really  happy.
 
No resistors, no tension limiters, no new drums, prettier parachutes, and a  
lot cheaper too.
 
Everyone is happy (even our Chiropractors!)...and no one attends the  event.
 
Or man up.  Get the good line, have someone with a big plane really  put the 
load to them before the contest,  have some spare winches  and  plan for quick 
re-lights , a broken line or pop off become the luck of  the draw advantage, 
instead of flying it out causing a friend to have a  lousy expensive weekend.
 
I'd spend money on attending even :-)

Gordy
Sunny and warm in Louisville today!  Got a flight in  even..some honey-do's 
done, some Christmas shopping and even took the motor bike  out for a fun ride! 
 You?



**See AOL's top rated recipes 
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop000304)

Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[Martin Usher]

That resistor rod is a really good idea -- simple, effective and robust.

A lot of the discussion about launching has been the effect on the line 
but that's the least of our problems. We've put stronger line on our 
winches -- we're at 270lb test at the moment -- but all that's done for 
us is that the motors and other mechanical components are now breaking 
up. This is starting to get expensive, and for what? So a handful of 
people can launch planes a little higher than they might otherwise be 
able to do, planes that are supposed to be high performance sailplanes 
that have a low enough sink rate that they should be able to cruise 
around for many minutes while their owners look for lift. (They should 
maybe try flying a plane that's a little more challenging -- 2 meter or 
an Easy Glider, something that demands you get everything right or 
you're on the ground. Those big moldies are way too easy to fly.)


Martin Usher
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Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[Jeff Steifel]

Dave, all well and good, but the average club/pilot doesn't have a wide 
drum only a drum that equals the length of the long shaft.


Hell if we use a wide drum there's no need for a long shaft, just build 
an F3B winch.


I have used my F3B winch with braided on occasion, it doesn't have the 
zip that mono has for sure.
so I think that moving the resistance slightly lower to give ample power 
without breaking the line is in order.
I noticed that Daryl posted the same, and I would think that Daryl is 
certainly knowledgeable about winches and launching.


I don't believe that the current FAI setup on a Ford with Braided would 
be strong enough. I would not want to get out of shape and not have 
enough power to pull me back on. This is where a real lack of power is a 
problem.


Again I believe that you can lower the resistance on an FLS to get the 
power to where it won't break lines, and will make everyone happy (ok 
not everyone, that'll never happen).





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Jeff, I had a FLS wade built motor powered winch with a wide drum that I used 
with mono for F3B and with braided 200 lb test line for TD. this winch had a 
1/2 inch dia threaded stainless steel rod as a resistor to make it F3B legal 
and it was never disconnected.

1) You can't hurt the S/S rod with the heat generated by the hardest use at a 
contest and,

2) you won't hurt the motor, brushes or any other part of the motor with the 
S/S rod.

3) You will find that you can launch any of the current breed or future 
sailplanes with this package assuming the use of a properly built FLS motor on 
braided 200 lb test line.

4) Battery life will depend on the battery capacity you choose. Small chargers 
on the winch line and a small generator near by all but eliminates that 
question.

Jeff, I have done this and I have built a new winch that will prove again, my 
plan to be workable. Bosch motors used in F3B may not provide the same power 
that the FLS motor can using braided line due to the larger armature and field 
dia's on the FLS motor but here again, the motor of choice in the US is the FLS 
so until we get off our cans and start experimenting with the variables what 
will get done.

I have started with my testing again, HAVE YOU ? Let us know when you have some 
results to report and I will do the same.

Regards, Dave Corven.  
 
-- Original message --

From: Jeff Steifel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  
Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as 
the F3B winches.
The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS draws 
way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B winches are 
the resistors will probably get smoked...
I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the 
lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS.


One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent 
resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has 
taught me a little change is a lot of power.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Long, but read it anyway.

Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest concepts not 
  
only add a substantial cost to each winch an more potential failure points which 
could put a winch in a contest situation down for the day, where a broken line 
can usually repaired within a few minutes.

Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line breakage 
  

and make winches more user friendly are:

1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the FLS and 
  
the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the resistance specs for 
F3B winches. 

Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple with a pair 
  
of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B winch certification that 
should be available to proof the setup. AMA has one.

 
The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) requirements for 
  
F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could be used for all TD comps,an 
F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp also. The stainless rod is also 
unaffected by the heat generated by contest loads and cannot fail during heavy 
use.

Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads CHEAP ! I 
  
have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's ease of installation 
and cost. 

2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, allows for 
  
lower lb test line which will cost less and more importantly allow some stretch 
at the launch release giving the pilot a better choice on the amount of line 
tension preferred, instead of jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also could 
be an easier launch with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes. 

This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful results. I see 
  
where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is supplying the SWC comp with a 

Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[Dick Barker]

One big advantage of the resistor is that the heat goes into the air -
not into the windings and brushes when you start pulsing the juice for a
power limit.

Dick Barker
HLG doesn't need any stinking winch!



At 12:38 PM -0500 12/22/07, Anker Berg-Sonne wrote:
>There's a much better method than using a resistor. The resistor generates 
>heat that is pure wasted energy. Instead, an automatic pulser that cuts the 
>power to the solenoids when the current exceeds a certain value is a much 
>better solution. There's an even better advantage to this solution because you 
>can adjust the maximum current depending on what is being launched. An even 
>more advanced concept is to have a foot pedal that isn't simply and on/off 
>switch, but a rheostat that controls the current limiter. I actually have one 
>of these sitting in my garage.
>
>Anker
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text format

Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[Anker Berg-Sonne]

There's a much better method than using a resistor. The resistor 
generates heat that is pure wasted energy. Instead, an automatic pulser 
that cuts the power to the solenoids when the current exceeds a certain 
value is a much better solution. There's an even better advantage to 
this solution because you can adjust the maximum current depending on 
what is being launched. An even more advanced concept is to have a foot 
pedal that isn't simply and on/off switch, but a rheostat that controls 
the current limiter. I actually have one of these sitting in my garage.


Anker

Jeff Steifel wrote:
Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as 
the F3B winches.
The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS 
draws way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B 
winches are the resistors will probably get smoked...
I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the 
lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS.


One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent 
resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has 
taught me a little change is a lot of power.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Long, but read it anyway.

Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest 
concepts not only add a substantial cost to each winch an more 
potential failure points which could put a winch in a contest 
situation down for the day, where a broken line can usually repaired 
within a few minutes.
Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line 
breakage and make winches more user friendly are:


1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the 
FLS and the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the 
resistance specs for F3B winches.
Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple 
with a pair of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B 
winch certification that should be available to proof the setup. AMA 
has one.
 
The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) 
requirements for F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could 
be used for all TD comps,an F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp 
also. The stainless rod is also unaffected by the heat generated by 
contest loads and cannot fail during heavy use.


Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads 
CHEAP ! I have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's 
ease of installation and cost.
2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, 
allows for lower lb test line which will cost less and more 
importantly allow some stretch at the launch release giving the pilot 
a better choice on the amount of line tension preferred, instead of 
jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also could be an easier launch 
with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes.
This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful 
results. I see where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is 
supplying the SWC comp with a winch resistor system and that will be 
the start of something. We have to quit talking about this and get it 
done.


I propose that we get the Soaring Nats winches resistorised for this 
years Soaring Nats and with lighter line than the 300 lb test line 
that we have migrated to this last year.


Regards, Dave Corven. Also Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

 -- Original message --
From: Marc Gellart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
From what I have seen in this thread, the two real simple, straight 
forward suggesions seem to be, lower capacity batteries like used in 
B, and lighter line, like 200# (which the Dayton club already uses 
and it works just fine for them except they have a great grass field 
and and no humps in it).


Personnally I just hate downwind launches (my problem huh?) and 
tension limiters sound worse than retrievers to keep working 
correctly.  I am really interested to hear how SWC goes to see how 
Rick's resistor set up works, that might work just fine.


I've had my arse chewed on privitaly about somethings here, heh, 
these are just ideas, right?  Still wished we all had the B winches 
though, then there is no problem.


Marc

Have a great Christmas, and holiday with your families!
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Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[mrmaserati]

Jeff, I had a FLS wade built motor powered winch with a wide drum that I used 
with mono for F3B and with braided 200 lb test line for TD. this winch had a 
1/2 inch dia threaded stainless steel rod as a resistor to make it F3B legal 
and it was never disconnected.

1) You can't hurt the S/S rod with the heat generated by the hardest use at a 
contest and,

2) you won't hurt the motor, brushes or any other part of the motor with the 
S/S rod.

3) You will find that you can launch any of the current breed or future 
sailplanes with this package assuming the use of a properly built FLS motor on 
braided 200 lb test line.

4) Battery life will depend on the battery capacity you choose. Small chargers 
on the winch line and a small generator near by all but eliminates that 
question.

Jeff, I have done this and I have built a new winch that will prove again, my 
plan to be workable. Bosch motors used in F3B may not provide the same power 
that the FLS motor can using braided line due to the larger armature and field 
dia's on the FLS motor but here again, the motor of choice in the US is the FLS 
so until we get off our cans and start experimenting with the variables what 
will get done.

I have started with my testing again, HAVE YOU ? Let us know when you have some 
results to report and I will do the same.

Regards, Dave Corven.  
 
-- Original message --
From: Jeff Steifel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as 
> the F3B winches.
> The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS draws 
> way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B winches are 
> the resistors will probably get smoked...
> I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the 
> lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS.
> 
> One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent 
> resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has 
> taught me a little change is a lot of power.
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Long, but read it anyway.
> >
> > Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest concepts not 
> only add a substantial cost to each winch an more potential failure points 
> which 
> could put a winch in a contest situation down for the day, where a broken 
> line 
> can usually repaired within a few minutes.
> > Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line breakage 
> and make winches more user friendly are:
> >
> > 1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the FLS and 
> the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the resistance specs 
> for 
> F3B winches. 
> >
> > Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple with a 
> > pair 
> of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B winch certification 
> that 
> should be available to proof the setup. AMA has one.
> >  
> > The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) requirements 
> > for 
> F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could be used for all TD 
> comps,an 
> F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp also. The stainless rod is also 
> unaffected by the heat generated by contest loads and cannot fail during 
> heavy 
> use.
> >
> > Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads CHEAP ! I 
> have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's ease of 
> installation 
> and cost. 
> >
> > 2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, allows 
> > for 
> lower lb test line which will cost less and more importantly allow some 
> stretch 
> at the launch release giving the pilot a better choice on the amount of line 
> tension preferred, instead of jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also 
> could 
> be an easier launch with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes. 
> >
> > This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful results. I 
> > see 
> where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is supplying the SWC comp with 
> a 
> winch resistor system and that will be the start of something. We have to 
> quit 
> talking about this and get it done.
> >
> > I propose that we get the Soaring Nats winches resistorised for this years 
> Soaring Nats and with lighter line than the 300 lb test line that we have 
> migrated to this last year.
> >
> > Regards, Dave Corven. 
> > Also Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
> >
> >  -- Original message --
> > From: Marc Gellart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >   
> >> From what I have seen in this thread, the two real simple, straight 
> >> forward 
> >> suggesions seem to be, lower capacity batteries like used in B, and 
> >> lighter 
> >> line, like 200# (which the Dayton club already uses and it works just fine 
> for 
> >> them except they have a great grass field and and no humps in it).
> >>
> >> Personnally I just hate downwind launches (my problem huh?) and tension 
>

[RCSE] Denny Zech

[mrmaserati]

Denny, I'm sure I've spelled your name wrong, but could you please contact me 
by e-mail or call me @ 248-515-2153 cell at your earliest convenience ?

Regards, Dave Corven.
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Re: [RCSE] Re JW/NZ Quake

[Chuck Anderson]

I last talked to Joe at the Nats last summer.  At that time, he said 
that they would be leaving for New Zealand the week after Visalia and 
I saw that his scores at Visalia were posted on the internet.


Chuck Anderson

At 09:23 AM 12/21/2007, you wrote:

His last main event in the US was at the June XC event at Montague 
this year.  He won everything.



I'm pretty sure I saw him at Visalia this year. I could be wrong, I 
spent a lot of time at the beer tent.
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Re: [RCSE] F3B winches??? Appropriate for TD purposes?

[Bill's Email]

Daryl does make an excellent point that a detuned TD winch with a narrow 
spool & braided line, might cause some issues with heavier stronger planes.



Isn't that the objective?? Keep lines from breaking and strong planes 
from launching high.


In the end what I know is that no matter what you do to the winches the 
same guys are still going to win. The sad and hurtful truth is that they 
are just better pilots than the rest of us.


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Re: [RCSE] Launching Sanity

[Jeff Steifel]

Without knowing for sure, I don't think we want the same resistance as 
the F3B winches.
The F3B winches use mono so they get power from that, and the FLS draws 
way more amperage, so if we resistor down to where the F3B winches are 
the resistors will probably get smoked...
I would think we would want a little less resistance to overcome the 
lack of mono, and higher draw of the FLS.


One of the Electrical engineers could probably come up with a decent 
resistance. I'd expect it to be a small , but as my F3B teacher has 
taught me a little change is a lot of power.


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Long, but read it anyway.

Tension limiter discussions come and go and even the simplest concepts not only 
add a substantial cost to each winch an more potential failure points which 
could put a winch in a contest situation down for the day, where a broken line 
can usually repaired within a few minutes.
Two things that we can do to stanardise winch power, minimize line breakage and 
make winches more user friendly are:

1 ) A simple 1/2 stainless steel threaded rod installed between the FLS and the power from the solenoid can be adjusted to provide the resistance specs for F3B winches. 


Remember that the resistor rod is threaded so adjustment is simple with a pair 
of jam nuts. There are a few checking devises for F3B winch certification that 
should be available to proof the setup. AMA has one.
 
The target setup should be the same as current (pun intended) requirements for F3B winches for a standard and then any winch could be used for all TD comps,an F3B comp and possibly to run an F3J comp also. The stainless rod is also unaffected by the heat generated by contest loads and cannot fail during heavy use.


Also the cost can't be more than $10 to $12 per winch. That reads CHEAP ! I have done this mod thee times and and can testify to it's ease of installation and cost. 

2 ) The slightly lower power achieved above, and I mean slightly, allows for lower lb test line which will cost less and more importantly allow some stretch at the launch release giving the pilot a better choice on the amount of line tension preferred, instead of jerking the sailplane out of his hand. Also could be an easier launch with the more fragile wood constructed sailplanes. 


This mod has been done 3 times by yours truly with successful results. I see 
where Mr Hands Off Retriever fame, Rick Botha is supplying the SWC comp with a 
winch resistor system and that will be the start of something. We have to quit 
talking about this and get it done.

I propose that we get the Soaring Nats winches resistorised for this years 
Soaring Nats and with lighter line than the 300 lb test line that we have 
migrated to this last year.

Regards, Dave Corven. 
Also Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.


 -- Original message --
From: Marc Gellart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  
From what I have seen in this thread, the two real simple, straight forward 
suggesions seem to be, lower capacity batteries like used in B, and lighter 
line, like 200# (which the Dayton club already uses and it works just fine for 
them except they have a great grass field and and no humps in it).


Personnally I just hate downwind launches (my problem huh?) and tension limiters 
sound worse than retrievers to keep working correctly.  I am really interested 
to hear how SWC goes to see how Rick's resistor set up works, that might work 
just fine.


I've had my arse chewed on privitaly about somethings here, heh, these are just 
ideas, right?  Still wished we all had the B winches though, then there is no 
problem.


Marc

Have a great Christmas, and holiday with your families!
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--
Jeff Steifel

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Re: [RCSE] F3B winches??? Appropriate for TD purposes?

[Jon Stone]

OTOH...

I would say "real" F3B winches are quite good for TD, especially for 
woody planes, if .. (BIG IF) the pilot does not load up a lot of 
tension on the line.  We've found my F3B winch a perfect for launching 
Oly 2's in my club, as the power is low and the line is stretchy.


Daryl does make an excellent point that a detuned TD winch with a narrow 
spool & braided line, might cause some issues with heavier stronger planes.



Daryl Perkins wrote:

On the subject of resisting down to F3B "strength":

  

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RE: [RCSE] F3B winches??? Appropriate for TD purposes?

[Daryl Perkins]

On the subject of resisting down to F3B "strength":

I understand the argument and rationale. But This is a problem. F3B
winches are very well built and designed. They are very efficient. The
motors selected for use are already very close to the resisted number.
We play all kinds of games with drum size to keep the motor/drum
turning. If it weren't for the mono, we'd get virtually no launch at
all. 

The typical club winch with all kinds of slop in the drum, and about 4
miles of braided nylon (creating about a 6 inch drum, and a very short
drum making the line buildup quickly, the line pulling up on the draggy
fan belt style brake, and a retriever dragging the whole thing down...
resisted all the way down to F3B resistance Well...can you say
stalled winch?

Again - I understand the rationale, and it is very logical. But not
practical. I think you'll find that some testing is in order to figure
out what the resistance numbers should be for a typical club winch
configuration. 

I do hope that the SWC guys took this into account. 



Darylperkins.com LLC.
1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403

www.darylperkins.com








>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] F3B winches???
> From: Jon Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, December 22, 2007 8:21 am
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Soaring@airage.com
> This link should be helpful
> http://www.google.com/search?q=f3b+winch
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > During the discussion about limiting winch strength and reducing line 
> > breaks there have been several references to F3B winches. 
> >  
> > I am not familiar with F3B flying or the winch specs.  Can someone 
> > explain F3B or point me to a site where I can read about it? 
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Ed Anderson
> >
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> text format

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Re: [RCSE] F3B winches???

[Jon Stone]

This link should be helpful

http://www.google.com/search?q=f3b+winch

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
During the discussion about limiting winch strength and reducing line 
breaks there have been several references to F3B winches. 
 
I am not familiar with F3B flying or the winch specs.  Can someone 
explain F3B or point me to a site where I can read about it? 


Best Regards,
Ed Anderson


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Re: [RCSE] Post curing West System 105/206

[Anker Berg-Sonne]

Bill,

I use Pro Set and it has all the post curing information right on it. 
Its a two phase curing process and I don't remember exactly what the 
times are, but I seem to remember 105 degrees for 24 hours. It does 
depend on the brand and "model".


As far as I remember, West Systems doesn't really benefit from a post 
cure under heat.


Have fun/Anker

Anker

Bill & Bunny Kuhlman wrote:


Granddaughter Alyssa and I are involved in vacuum bagging processes: 
carbon fiber spar caps, fiberglass over foam flying surfaces, and a 
molded all glass fuselage pod and boom.


We're using West System 105/206 for all of the components.

We know that post curing - higher than room temperature heat over 
several hours to a full day - will make the epoxy matrix stronger, but 
after a long web search have been unable to get firm numbers for 
either the temperature required or the recommended time period.


If anyone can pass on this information, we'd very much appreciate it. 
We have our "hot box" made and can take it up to 160 degrees F.


Many thanks in advance!


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Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting

[Darwin N. Barrie]

How about, "Popovratti."

- Original Message - 
From: "S Meyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Jerry Shape" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Soaring Exchange" 
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 11:55 PM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting



At 08:00 PM 12/21/2007, Jerry Shape wrote:
Dayton CDs (me)also threaten contestants at every pilots meeting not to 
break my lines or pop off .


Does that work for Gordy!?!?  :-)  Mr Popovalot.





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[RCSE] Re: Post curing West System 105/206

[lincolnr]

Are you completely set on using West? As I recall (although I don't recall 
where 
the numberrs come from) West System doesn't develop properties with post 
curing as nice as some other epoxies. For instance, I have an epoxy mix picked 
up from a boatbuilder I know which has a considerably higher glass transition 
temperature after post cure. ( but again, it's been so long I don't recall 
exactly 
what those properties or cure temps are). 

For a small job like this, I'd probably use Phase Two from an outfit called 
System 
Three. You will get a paper telling you exactly how to postcure it. (Two hours 
at 
140F, but it has to be that warm all the way through). An unusual property is 
that it becomes relatively opaque because of the two phases, which are 
supposed to make it tougher than a singly phase epoxy. Not sure if this works 
in terms of strength and toughness, but it handles ok. Heat deflection temp 
claimed as 64C (147F)

For a big job I'd go back to that boatbuilder I know or else look into Raka as 
mentioned below. 

If I thought the volume was going to be pretty high I'd definitely look into 
prepregs. Probably save a lot of labor and get better properties too, although 
I 
haven't played with prepregs yet. Your oven might not be enough for them, 
though.

I seem to recall MGS (sp?) epoxies are made for postcure as well.

You might try Raka. The proprieter is willing to talk to you on the phone, and 
can recommend temperatures etc. for various epoxies he has. 

If you pick the right materials and cure it right, you can use colors other 
than 
white, although I certainly wouldn't do it with West.

If you must use West, it sounds like 120F for 4 to 8 hours is good. I found it 
in 
the following newsletter from West:
http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/18/pdf/tanks.pdf
Now, some of that epoxy is mixed slightly different, but not much.
Don't exceed 140F:
http://westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/moreinfo/coldtemp.htm
(that's a clue that you may not get great thermal properties)

Note that, according to the physical properties on the West site, 105/206 is 
only 
good for 123F heat deflection temperature. That's why we need to keep it white!

I think, given the labor involved, that if the results are important it's a 
false 
economy to use the epoxy on hand. Nothing wrong with WEST if you aren't 
going to use the result in high temps or need really high properties in the 
resin. 
In that case I'd use the ordinary version of RAKA because I've used it with 
good 
results in the past and it was cheaper.

I realize that you probably have 10X the practical experience laying up glass 
stuff that I have, but I've looked into the post curing thing a little bit.

Even if you stick with WEST, if you get it to 100F overnight it will be 
reasonably 
well cured overnight. But I understand post curing works best AFTER the initial 
cure.

Bill & Bunny Kuhlman wrote:

Granddaughter Alyssa and I are involved in vacuum bagging processes: 
carbon fiber spar caps, fiberglass over foam flying surfaces, and a 
molded all glass fuselage pod and boom. 

We're using West System 105/206 for all of the components. 

We know that post curing - higher than room temperature heat over 
several hours to a full day - will make the epoxy matrix stronger, 
but after a long web search have been unable to get firm numbers for 
either the temperature required or the recommended time period. 

If anyone can pass on this information, we'd very much appreciate it. 
We have our "hot box" made and can take it up to 160 degrees F. 

Many thanks in advance! 

-- 
Bill & Bunny Kuhlman 
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Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting

[rmong]

At the Nats last year Jim Thomas takes the
mic and settles the crowd for a big  announcement,
most pause to listen - he say's ' Gordy is on the field '
not more than 2 seconds later someone utters --
' has he popped off yet '. I guess these are the times I
remember about the Nats.

Sorry Gordy - couldn't resist - we love ya !!

Ron Mong
Columbus, OH


- Original Message - 
From: "S Meyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Jerry Shape" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Soaring Exchange" 
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 1:55 AM
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Launch Limiting



At 08:00 PM 12/21/2007, Jerry Shape wrote:
Dayton CDs (me)also threaten contestants at every pilots meeting not to 
break my lines or pop off .


Does that work for Gordy!?!?  :-)  Mr Popovalot.





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[RCSE] F3B winches???

[aeajr]

During the discussion about limiting winch strength and reducing line breaks 
there have been several references to F3B winches.  
 
I am not familiar with F3B flying or the winch specs.  Can someone explain F3B 
or point me to a site where I can read about it? 

Best Regards, 
Ed Anderson