[RCSE] Words of Appreciation
Hey Team! I may have missed the opening thread to this topic, but Chuck must be chiming in on what we all appreciate about Gordy! What a nice thing to do for a fellow pilot! Thanks Chuck! I get really tired of the 'personal bashing' that goes on over RCSE. I was thinking of unsubscribing. Then Chuck comes along and restores my confidence in this chat group. There are so many people out there in soaring-land who I have met and would like to say something nice things about. I once learned that there is nothing in life which people appreciate more than hearing their name coming from the lips of another person. Simple words of appreciation are powerful. Gosh, I seemed to have gotten a bit carried away! While you and I may never meet personally, I just wanted to add that I value and appreciate all of you who share my interest in 'things which fly'. And I look forward to meeting you someday... at some flying field located somewhere on planet earth. And when I get to your location, I'll probably find these words carved in the trunk of a tree... Gordy was here! Epilogue: And what about Gordy? In my opinion, Gordy is a marketing genius. He's a one-man-brand whom we all instantly recognize only by his first name! Like Nike; Reebok; Dell; JR ... Gordy! And thanks to you and RCSE, we have made 'Gordy' a household word. You gotta love Gordy for who he is. I appreciate the fact that Gordy is willing to share his thoughts on a variety of topics, knowing he is going to take some heat. That takes some courage. Too much of anything will make you sick. But just a little 'Gordy' is like adding 'hot sauce' to a burrito! It makes the burrito worth eating! Bill Rakozy :) P.S. You can get some 'Gordy' today, at a chat group near you! -Original Message- From: Chuck Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:01 AM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] 14th Anniversary Today is the fourteenth anniversary of my meeting Gordy. It was on a cold January day in 1995 that I got a call from Gordy Stahl. He said that he was passing through and would like to meet me. I couldn't remember anybody named Gordy but said OK. I then looked into my records and found that a few years earlier I had sold him an early version of my Airfoil Plot program. It is almost impossible to give directions to my house to anybody not familiar with Tullahoma so I said to give me a call when he got off the Interstate and I would meet him at the model airplane field. Gordy was driving a pickup towing a long long trailer carrying some earth moving machinery. I live way back in the woods on a narrow driveway but some how Gordy made it my drive without hitting any oak trees. Fortunately I have a circle drive in front of my house so he didn't have to turn that rig around because I didn't have 40 acres. I assumed that Gordy wanted to talk about airfoils and plotting software but it turned out that he wanted to see my models. I had just finished restoring my Corvette and my shop was still cluttered with car tools so most of my models were in storage and I didn't have anything to show. We discussed flying and Gordy remarked that he didn't like contests because he didn't like spending a whole day for only a few flights. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Brain Fart Challenge
Thats pretty good, However, I think that 2 rounds of t-6 should be tossed in the mix. That way Gordy can demonstrate his calculating prowess while flying.. the mark of a true champion -- Jack Strother Granger, IN LSF 2948 LSF Level V #117 LSF Official 1996 - 2004 CSS Gold -- Original message -- From: dharban [EMAIL PROTECTED] All right boys, lets turn the talk into walk. How about a challenge match between the mouth and the mouth breather, Gordy and Darth? I will personally pay one night's motel and dinner for each of the protagonists (antagonists?) for the night prior to a match to be held in Amarillo (or some other mutually agreeable site) and furnish two matched 6V motor 12V winches and other necessary gear for a match with the following format: Round I -- Four Flights 1. First launch 15 minutes after official local sunrise. Subsequent flights follow 5 minutes after prior flight landing. (BTW I'll also pay for all the adult beverages either contestant wants the night prior to the match :) ) 2. Task AMA task T3 (Precision Duration) modified to 8 minutes. 3. MOM simultaneous launch immediately on launch signal (DSQ if still on line 10 seconds after launch signal.) 4. Simultaneous landing time (8 minutes after launch signal). Landing timing called out by contest official. 5. Landing task spot landing, 10 foot graduated landing tape, 100 point max. 6. Normalized scoring based on AMA Precision Duration Points -- Landing Points not normalized. 7. Turnaround distance 600 feet. 8. No skegs allowed. Round II - Four Flights 1. First launch 1 hour after last flight of Round I. Subsequent flights 5 minutes immediately after finish of prior landing. 2. Task AMA task T3 (Precision Duration) 10 minutes. 3. MOM simultaneous launch immediately on launch signal (DSQ if still on line 10 seconds after launch signal.) 4. Simultaneous landing time (10 minutes after launch signal). Landing timing called out by contest official. 5. Landing task AMA L6 6. Normalized scoring based on AMA Precision Duration Points -- Landing Points not normalized. 7. Turnaround distance 700 feet. 8. Skegs allowed Other general rules. 1. Pilots may use up to two planes in the match -- declared before the first launch. 2. No outside assistance of any kind while flying -- no Picolarios, no coaches, no verbal communication from anyone to the pilots except the time called out by the contest official. 3. Winch setup will have a 300# land line and a 200# pound air line. Air line will be at least 250 feet long. Pilots will fly out all pop offs and all line breaks. No reflights unless the land line breaks. All lines will be new at the start of the match. 4. The lowest round score will be thrown out for each pilot. 5. High points win. Loser buys dinner for the winner and up to two contest officials. Loser agrees to abide by winners comments on this thread for two years from the date of the contest.If Gordy loses, he will graciously present Darth with one of his infamous I beat Gordy pins and will include the phrase Darth Beat Me on any comments he posts on this thread for two years. If Darth loses he will include the phrase Gordy Beat Me on any comments he posts on this thread for two years. Come on curmudgeons, lets get down and have some FUN :) -- dharban dharban's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=31927 View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796852 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Re: Soaring V1 #10616
You received your mail late because your server was doing maintenance or some other work and saved it to another drive to send it to you when they finished. We are a commercial company selling used items retail and on the net and occasionally have to put up with this kind of crap as well. Customers simply do not understand or despond well to this type of inconvenience. Dennis Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:58:42 -0500 From: Jeff Steifel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: rcse soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: [RCSE] Re: Challenge... Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't know why but I just got a whole bunch of mail that should have been sent days ago. Reading thru the headers it should have left airage on the 3rd and 4th, but it just got forwarded. A bunch of you have already been playing with this thread... Can someone tell me why I just received all these days later. More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Looking for source wing rods
I need a wing rod 11/32 diameter with a prebent 8* dihedral. 12 3/4 overall length. Stan
Re: [RCSE] Looking for source wing rods
Try HilaunchClarence http://www.hilaunch.com/ Stan Myers wrote: I need a wing rod 11/32 diameter with a prebent 8* dihedral. 12 3/4 overall length. Stan RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Which Wing Rod?
Hi All, I'm in the process of desigining my wing for my road trip plane and would like to ask for recommendations on wing rods. I have 1/2 ID carbon tubes that I'll be using as spars but don't know what to use for the wing joiners (rods.) The wing will be 4 panels so I need to consider joiners for the inner panels as well as the tips. Thanks for your help, Jimmy RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] FOR SALE PIKE PERFECT
Second posting. Selling for a new project, Pike Perfect, Like new, with custom nose skeg, Jr 3421elevator, Airtronics 94761 rudder, flaps, aileron, 1200 mha 5 cell, wing bags, Jr 790 syn 7ch RX, all this costs $2150.00 Asking $1900.00 + shipping. If you fly on JR 9303 and you are local I can down load my flight program and you can go flying. Call for info Rick 562 421 4864. Photos at http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=784412 Regards Rick Briggs Web Director http://www.soaringissa.org RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Which Wing Rod?
Having had a carbon joiner (rod) snap on me without warning I'll never use one again. They're very strong but if they go they just snap -- there's no sign of trouble, just one second you're launching normally, the next you have a three piece sailplane. I've not heard of any problems with carbon tip joiners. Martin Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi All, I'm in the process of desigining my wing for my road trip plane and would like to ask for recommendations on wing rods. I have 1/2 ID carbon tubes that I'll be using as spars but don't know what to use for the wing joiners (rods.) The wing will be 4 panels so I need to consider joiners for the inner panels as well as the tips. Thanks for your help, RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...)
RCSE sends posts from people directly subscribed to the list immediately to all those on the list. If you receive RCSE through a forwarder or post from a web based forum (such as rcgroups.com), those posts need to be screened by one of the moderators before it will be posted to the subscribers. This is all done to ensure that SPAM and other off-topic posts are sent to everyone on RCSE. The downside is that the moderators (Mike L and myself) have lives, and don't always get around to approving posts. When there is a delay, this is why. -l RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...)
Thanks for the screening. I appreciate it. And, by the way, I think you meant to say that screening is done to ensue that spam is NOT posted. :) But I got the message. Chuck Anderson At 11:28 AM 1/9/2008, you wrote: RCSE sends posts from people directly subscribed to the list immediately to all those on the list. If you receive RCSE through a forwarder or post from a web based forum (such as rcgroups.com), those posts need to be screened by one of the moderators before it will be posted to the subscribers. This is all done to ensure that SPAM and other off-topic posts are sent to everyone on RCSE. The downside is that the moderators (Mike L and myself) have lives, and don't always get around to approving posts. When there is a delay, this is why. -l RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...)
Yes Chuck, the screening is done to insure spam is NOT forwarded to the list. Amazing what a missed word can do to the intent of a message :-) -l -Original Message- From: Chuck Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:47 AM To: Lex Mierop Cc: soaring@airage.com Subject: Re: Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...) Thanks for the screening. I appreciate it. And, by the way, I think you meant to say that screening is done to ensue that spam is NOT posted. :) But I got the message. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest Format
This past November, I was contest director for a monthly contest of the Soaring League of North Texas at which I tried out a new format for Man-on-Man competition. It was well received. The format addresses a few of my pet peeves about soaring contests. I offer this description in the hopes that readers of the exchange may be interested. First, a few comments about my objectives: Fast paced contest. Scoring and judging must be easy and quick. Minimal luck factor. Everyone has a chance to succeed on each flight. A blown flight does not end your day. A blown landing does not end your day. No dropped rounds; all flights count. Emphasis on flying and consistency. A contest not won in the air, cannot be won in the landing circle. No sandbagging or air poaching. The format is seeded Man-on-Man, which addresses several of the objectives on its own. The task is duration; not precision. Scoring is based on points awarded for landing order, last down wins. Landing scores are for breaking ties only. Five winches were set up to launch flight groups of up to four flyers. The usual Man-on-Man procedures regarding pop-offs and line breaks are used. Winds were fifteen gusting to twenty-five MPH. The time target was set at nine minutes. Only one max flight was achieved. Lower winds would call for longer target times, but they need not be impossible, just challenging, for the format to be valid. Scoring is based on a ten (10) point scale. The last one down and everyone who achieves the target max gets first place in the flight group and scores ten (10) points. Second place gets nine (9) points, third place gets eight (8) points, and fourth place gets seven (7) points. If there are three making the max, the fourth flyer gets seven (7) points. If there are two making the max the other two get eight (8) and seven (7), respectively. In flight groups of three the lowest score is eight (8) and the lowest score in groups of two is nine (9) points. No groups of less than two are flown, except if someone scratches between rounds. A maximum of thirty seconds to land after the target is allowed or the flight is considered off field. Off field landings score last place points and all other flyers in the flight group move up a place if the off field flyer lands after them. You cannot beat anybody by landing off field no matter how long you flew. If two flyers get the same time, less than the target, they each get the points for the place they tied for. For example, if they tied for first, they get ten (10) points each, if for second, nine (9) points, etc. Landing points have no role in determining the outcome of individual rounds. Landing points are recorded and used to break ties in the final standings. If somebody does not score as well as you in the air, he cannot beat you with landing points. Landing points are also used to determine seeding and winch choice. The flyer with the higher landing points, if tied for last position in a flight group, gets the advantage of flying in the next lower scoring flight group. Winch choice, which is based on seeding, is resolved among tied contestants by landing scores. Coin flips and fist fights are secondary tie breakers in such cases, based on mutual agreement of the tied flyers. The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the seeding. Larger flight groups can be flown, but to keep everyone in the game, scores lower than seven (7) are not recommended. Small flight groups give more contestants a chance to succeed even if they do not win overall. This keeps interest and enjoyment up. This must be balanced against the time needed to fly a round. The more rounds the better. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE]
Hi RCSE Can you guys help in finding the best price for JR sailplane servos DS3421 and DS638BB Regards Aneil, Auckland - NZ No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1216 - Release Date: 9/01/2008 10:16 a.m.
[RCSE] Maybe the Best 'Airframe' I Have Ever Seen on the Beach...EVER, Puerto V Today
Some of the goofy crap about lines and winches, making more 'challenging' contests, etc, finally lead to where they usually do...about someone just wanting to let everyone know that they 'beat' Gordy. While I was 'working' today at the Four Seasons Resort beach in Puerto Vallarta, I spied the what may have been the most beautiful 'airframe' I have ever seen in the world in the surf. :-) Which I only mention that because she distracted my thoughts about the topic of 'beating' other pilots...or the underlying ill will behind using that term in the context of us flying contests and the negative intimidating effect it has had on sport -soarers becoming involved in contests over the years. If you turn on the lights and really look at our hobby, (and it is just that) there is not any way for some pilot to 'beat' another pilot in a RC contest. The last beating I got was well deserved and handed to me by my father a bunch of years back. The best any of us can do is to do the task perfectly. If it is a 50 pilot competition, 49 guys aren't standing around bleeding from their nosesthey are usually standing around smiling from a day of flying their sailplanes with friends. Jack used the phrase 'I beat Gordy' when at TNT he ended up with a better score that Gordy got. And was really proud that he used what he felt was an inferior airframe. I guess we could speculate that he was embarrassed about flying it, so compensated by pointing out that in spite of flying a lesser model than a Supra (I only use Sharons at TNT's by the way, not the World's Heaviest Carbon Supra). His story implies that he has proven superior skills to Gordy's, which I guess implies that adds credibility to his winch, or task ideas. Often the last gasp way to reinforce a weak argument is to use dramatic statements. He doesn't mention that it was one of the most fun TNT's I'd ever flown. The incredible low landing zone area save for a max, or the great feeling of a good friend (Mike Lachowski) rushing over to my side to offer some suggestions for another save behind the corner tree line is crazy turbulent sink and lift pockets, which I wasn't good enough to pull off earning me the zero part of 'hero or zero' type flying. (He did pull off the same corner save earlier!). You see by us using a word to describe the result of a day of flying like 'beat', it changes things from fun to personal gain or reduction at the price of others. My goal is always to have all my flying buddies do well, get giant launches and perfect landings. Sure I want my flights to be perfect but less than that is still a fun day. I only bring up Shederman's pokes from way off on the site where nobody signs their names because it best points out what has been keeping most non contest pilots from getting involved. Is there anyone reading the RCSE that hasn't heard one of those guys respond to a contest invitation with the words...I only fly for fun...I'd never be competitive, or you need to have one of the expensive airplanes to win. You see they perceive contests as being about winning and losing, when in fact the most fun of our TD contests is the opportunity to fly with our friends, to see how our practice, study and skills ,compare against those of other pilots. Jack 'seems' to be a friendly guy who enjoys soaringbut I find that he like some of the others who whine about contest being too easy due to long strong winch lines are there for some other reason than flying sailplanes. Okay here's one more example: The I Beat Gordy buttons were started by Don Richmond as a joke during a Nats...Butch ended wearing a T shirt with that written on it (we all miss Butch by the way...well at least those who didn't lose a hot dog too him!:-). Louisville's own Ben Wilson (Nat on line real time correspondent and LSF 5' aspirant) came up with really nice buttons as part of a fund raising campaign to outfit our club's 'adopted' 11 year old pilot with sailplanes and radios). Pilots at events were given a chance earn a chance to contribute to the fund, by getting a better score as some contests around the country and also earning a button to show the contributed (by the way our little Lee didn't let those guys down, he raised his grade point average by almost double and is now working on LSF4..having won a JR event or two even!). I ended that campaign went I finished up my LSF 4 and needed to get my LSF5 wins out of the way, sure I love the kid but hey...LSF5 is LSF 5 ! ;-) Maybe there has been too much beating being done at contests by some... interestingly enough, I have never heard one of our current or past USA team members use the phrase I beat Maybe that's why I can't wait to help with raising funds to help get them to Turkey this year.. in American style, plenty of equipment and well prepared, so that they can all put up
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
At 02:40 PM 1/9/2008, Tim Bennett wrote: The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the seeding. Interesting twist on seeded MoM. But one of the things I always enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good burial in a contest. Getting away on a good group of pilots and getting a max when the others couldn't make it happen. It keeps some strategy in the game keeping an eye on other good pilots and not letting them break away on the pack. Flying it out with all eyes upon you, and hitting that landing with everyone watching is a LOT of fun. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
At 06:29 PM 1/9/2008, you wrote: Interesting twist on seeded MoM. But one of the things I always enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good burial in a contest. Jim This is the thing I hate most about MOM. I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor. It always seemed to me to be unethical. The other thing I don't like about seeded MOM is normalizing the scores. The idea of giving one man 1000 points for a flight while giving another flier half as many points for flying twice as long in a different group is morally wrong. I have seen this happen. In seeded MOM, normalizing isn't needed. That's already done by making you fly against your peers. Normalizing may be more beneficial when seeding isn't possible. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote: I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor. It always seemed to me to be unethical. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Beat Gordy? Hell no one's ever beat me!
No one has ever beat me. But boy have I spent many years in this hobby beating myself. I once said to a fellow group of fliers that I can beat JW on any given day, and so can they. They all laughed. But, how many contests have you flown 3 near-perfect rounds and then screwed the pooch on the 4th? I've done it many times. Who beat me? I did. It's about being consistent. And the top fliers are just that. I've placed less than 1st in most contests, and placed 1st in a few. But I still went home feeling good. 'Cause I had a damn good time doing it- Flying I mean. Gordy's right. It boils down to having fun with friends doing something we love.
[RCSE] Seeded MOM
(Original Message): ...I don't like...normalizing the scores. The idea of giving one man 1000 points for a flight while giving another flier half as many points for flying twice as long in a different group is morally wrongIn seeded MOM, normalizing isn't needed. That's already done by making you fly against your peers. If you don't normalize, it isn't MOM. It's called-flight-order, with all the ills of that ancient format that MOM was designed to cure (and does cure). The essence of MOM is that your skill is scored against the guys who launched at the same time. Ya know, this time of year there's always a lot of chatter about this or that contest rule. But the Nats, WSM, OVSS, F3J, and other big MOM contests have all settled on a pretty consistent format: 150 - 200 meter lines, seeded MOM, 10-minute targets, etc. Whether or not skegs are allowed never has the slightest impact on the scores of the top guys, although without skegs there can be some pretty scary landing dives and some damaged planes. The consistent growth of seeded MOM contests and the increasing standardization of the contest format is not necessarily a bad thing. The guys who fly a lot of contests seem pretty happy with the world of competition as they find it. The bottom line is, if you can outfly your group and you don't do too bad around the LZ, you'll do okay; and if not, not.
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Absolutely... I agree with Jim. Throwing dirt their way or being buried is part of the sport. What if you didn't have man on man, the results would be the same anyway. I'm not sure I understand why you would bring the pilots down early. You actually compress the groups scores. James V. Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote: I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor. It always seemed to me to be unethical. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Well Tim, you just lost me with your last comments. I guess the home town crowd has gotten soft in Texas (was raised in Arlington). Here in OVSS land you live and die to get the low save, downwind escape, faint read that no one else gets. We are flying 6 to 7 rounds a day of 10-13 minute flights at most of our contests, so we fly alot, and the guy who gets that fantastic flight is held up as the hero, not the zero. With our seeding, it is like watching golf, the last group is the big boys and literally, everyone watches and enjoys the battle. I wish we could seed out the Nats, but just too big to make the time work. This sounds way to politically correct for me, we do not fly outcome based soaring here. Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT when I finally get to come back. Marc ---BeginMessage--- Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format ---End Message---
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Tim, I appreciate all the thought you've put into the format. I'd side with Jim, however, on flying out the time. If someone puts the hurt on me I'm not mad at that person. I'm mad at myself for not hooking into that air. I don't think sportsmanship really comes into play. I've had the hurt put on me and then have the same guy come over and help with a broken wing rib or bad battery lead. That's sportsmanship. I also like to see when a beginning pilot sneaks out on their own ride while the experts are way off downwind and scratching. Nothing builds up your ego quicker when you're starting out than to have an expert pilot come poach some air you've been working. Your suggestion of coming down does move things along, but when the group is on the ground at 5 minutes and I've taken a big risk being off by myself and have a done a good job of working it, I don't think my effort should be worth just a single point more than one of the 5 minute guys. No matter what the format, it sure beats work :-) JE -- John Erickson LSF V #122 From: Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:52:53 -0600 To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
[RCSE] Contest format
Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs.
Re: [RCSE] Contest format
Maybe we should just do politically correct soaring contests and not keep score, like many kids sports programs these days. We wouldn't want to hurt any ones feelings, now would we? On Jan 9, 2008 10:53 PM, tony estep [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs. -- Steve Schneider Buffalo Grove, IL SOAR Club
RE: [RCSE] Contest format
There is some validity to your point about penalizing the 6 except that in a real contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900 or less out of 1000, is a low score. Once the issue is decided lets start the next flight group. -Original Message- From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:53 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: [RCSE] Contest format Original message: Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this at TNT... === Marc is right on. At a real contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs.
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Why don't we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest. sj - Original Message - From: Tim Bennettmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: soaring@airage.commailto:soaring@airage.com Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:52 PM Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format Jim Bacus wrote: Shafting the other fellow competitors by completing the task time? Unethical? ;-) I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score. Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to bury someone who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address. By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance of any competitor. I guess a key objective I left out was: Respect for the dignity of all participants. I also think ...maximizing available flying time during a contest... is better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown. Tim Bennett LSF IV RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]. Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Tim, Thanks for bringing some new ideas concepts to our beloved sport. I don't agree with everything you said, but you presented your case well. Open dialog without egos and emotion based responses will do us all well. Jon Stone PS. Yeah, I know egos and emotion based responses are par for the course on RCSE. :) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
Joe, What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my My child was prisoner of the month Bumper Sticker... Craig Joe Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Why dont we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest. sj -
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock, determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. Just jumping in and pokin some fun. Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-) Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com Original Message Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format From: Craig Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, January 09, 2008 10:18 pm To: Joe Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com soaring@airage.com Joe, What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my My child was prisoner of the month Bumper Sticker... Craig Joe Rodriguez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Why don't we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest. sj - RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four minutes. Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to meet at the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said Ready, Go. and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at him. The guy said, What are you doing? My friend said, Let me know when it's four minutes and I will run the mile as I said. The guy laughed, OK you got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole mile. My friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years. It is all in the format of the contest. Tim -Original Message- From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock, determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. Just jumping in and pokin some fun. Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-) Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
I'd pay to see Daryl try and run a mile!! Sorry, D ... couldn't resist. Mark Sent via IPhone On Jan 9, 2008, at 9:47 PM, Tim Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four minutes. Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to meet at the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said Ready, Go. and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at him. The guy said, What are you doing? My friend said, Let me know when it's four minutes and I will run the mile as I said. The guy laughed, OK you got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole mile. My friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years. It is all in the format of the contest. Tim -Original Message- From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM To: soaring@airage.com Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock, determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. Just jumping in and pokin some fun. Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-) Darylperkins.com LLC. 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403 www.darylperkins.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to soaring- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
Marc, Thanks for the comments. In answer to your questions, we have only tried this once, but we have been doing something similar for years for class A sailplanes using upstarts with scoring on a four point scale. We use head-to-head results rather than landings for tie breaking and rarely have to go beyond that. In really good weather, this contest format becomes a landing contest at the top just like any TD contest. The difference is that there is more emphasis on consistent flying than on times less than max. The course granularity of the scoring separates the competitors pretty quickly so you end up with a group with all tens and the rest pretty spread out. The landings decide the issue for those with the tens and any other ties as well. The one time we did it one guy had all tens and there were only two other ties. We didn't get in very many rounds, though. -Original Message- From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:11 PM To: Tim Bennett Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format Tim, Good idea, and you had the perfect conditions for this format of MOM, but would this have worked so well if the conditions were near perfect? I realize that you can break ties and such, but in the summer up here, even doing seeded MOM in our normal fashion, after six to eight rounds we will have the top five in a twenty point spread sometimes. I would think that this would get so tight that you would have a knot at the top so close that it might not break. Have you done it when it was nmicer or was this your first time out? Marc RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in text format
