RE: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[Jim Monaco]

There has been much talk about discriminating the scores more.  There is a
new F3J rule where the last 2 meters of the landing tape are graduated.
Instead of the in/out hundred landing requirement, there will be more
emphasis on the precision of the landing.  It will be interesting to see if
there is much leeway taken on the timing in order to get a better landing.

Jim

 

  _  

From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 3:32 PM
To: soaring@airage.com
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD?

 

- Original Message 

From: Mike Lachowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
...F3j with the current rules is broken.  It is very much the luck of the 
timer.  I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was 
good for a 1 second difference in flight time
==
Mike's point may sound arcane, but it is actually central to ensuring the
fairness of this event. I made this point after the 2006 and especially the
2004 WCs. An awful lot is decided by a few tenths of a second. There is an
inherent error band in the timing of stopping the watch, and an even far
greater error band in starting it. And there is the judgment call with
respect to overflying the window, which Larry Jolly pointed out as a source
of errors this year. In 2004, the WC top places were decided by an amount
less than the possible timing error. The FAI rules committee should spend a
little time talking to experts in statistics and quality control about how
to tweak the rules so that the difference in pilot performance will be much
greater than differences occasioned by the nerve pathways of the timer.

Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[tony estep]

- Original Message 

From: Mike Lachowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
...F3j with the current rules is broken.  It is very much the luck of the 
timer.   I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was 
good for a 1 second difference in flight time
==
Mike's point may sound arcane, but it is actually central to ensuring the 
fairness of this event. I made this point after the 2006 and especially the 
2004 WCs. An awful lot is decided by a few tenths of a second. There is an 
inherent error band in the timing of stopping the watch, and an even far 
greater error band in starting it. And there is the judgment call with respect 
to overflying the window, which Larry Jolly pointed out as a source of errors 
this year. In 2004, the WC top places were decided by an amount less than the 
possible timing error. The FAI rules committee should spend a little time 
talking to experts in statistics and quality control about how to tweak the 
rules so that the difference in pilot performance will be much greater than 
differences occasioned by the nerve pathways of the timer.

Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[Jo Grini]

A very good answer Mike!
I have been wanting shorter lines in F3J since 2002...
But I have to go with the pack as the CIAM meeting said no this year to 
shorter lines.

But to me it seems like more and more competitions in US are now both 
shorter lines and group scoring?
That sounds like a good and good way to go for me.
I like a good thermal contest. Maybe pilots will beat me more often but 
that's cool.

Hilsen (regards) Jo Grini
Gamleveien
2910 Aurdal
Norway
mob +47 90898709
www.jojoen.no
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> --
>
> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:04:28 -0400
> From: Mike Lachowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD?
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Oh, cool, I can get my ultra high tech model with super expensive high
> modulus carbon to keep the weight down and have real fun  Or I'll
> just pop off with my Bubble Dancer at .1 second.
>
> Shorter winch lines usually work better. Plus it gives the ligher models
> a better chance since they no longer have to lift up the ton of line
> required to keep the big models from breaking it all the time.  Plus, if
> you break it, you fly it  That always encourages everyone to stop
> abusing the winch.  And if that doesn't work, go for longer times.
>
> Actually, the launch discussion is kind of silly.  You must all be
> talking to electric guys who can't define a launch because they all use
> different launch equipment.  Electric sailplanes are in competition are
> a total turnoff for me because your launch equipment goes obsolete so 
> fast.
>
> AMA TD (or basically Unlimited these days) is what it is because of the
> Ford Long Shaft motor and 300lb line.  Everyone has somewhat similar
> launch equipment, and we can all agree on what to fly.   F3b is also
> working  (except for the denial that it exists in the US) because it has
> a well defined launch system.  Everyone can go out and practice and try
> to design better flying models instead of better launching equipment.
>
> F3j with the current rules is broken.  It is very much the luck of the
> timer.   I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was
> good for a 1 second difference in flight time. It's basically a launch
> race and timer reaction time event where you take yourself out of the
> competition by missing the 100 landing. Models and launch technique are
> a long way from what was created.   And shorter launches will only
> introduce more luck with being on the wrong side of the field.
>
>
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Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[Mike Lachowski]

Oh, cool, I can get my ultra high tech model with super expensive high 
modulus carbon to keep the weight down and have real fun  Or I'll 
just pop off with my Bubble Dancer at .1 second.


Shorter winch lines usually work better. Plus it gives the ligher models 
a better chance since they no longer have to lift up the ton of line 
required to keep the big models from breaking it all the time.  Plus, if 
you break it, you fly it  That always encourages everyone to stop 
abusing the winch.  And if that doesn't work, go for longer times.


Actually, the launch discussion is kind of silly.  You must all be 
talking to electric guys who can't define a launch because they all use 
different launch equipment.  Electric sailplanes are in competition are 
a total turnoff for me because your launch equipment goes obsolete so fast.


AMA TD (or basically Unlimited these days) is what it is because of the 
Ford Long Shaft motor and 300lb line.  Everyone has somewhat similar 
launch equipment, and we can all agree on what to fly.   F3b is also 
working  (except for the denial that it exists in the US) because it has 
a well defined launch system.  Everyone can go out and practice and try 
to design better flying models instead of better launching equipment.


F3j with the current rules is broken.  It is very much the luck of the 
timer.   I know the past few team selections, which timer you had was 
good for a 1 second difference in flight time. It's basically a launch 
race and timer reaction time event where you take yourself out of the 
competition by missing the 100 landing. Models and launch technique are 
a long way from what was created.   And shorter launches will only 
introduce more luck with being on the wrong side of the field.




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Craig,

What is with messing around with winch time  All minimizing winch
time does is make planes go up faster, and have them built like
composite bullets.  


Why not do something simple, like take the weight of the plane, mulitply
it by seconds and get a max time you have to fly??

We once talked about this , way back, when people used to fly scale, or
really stand off scale in the LSF tounaments and SSOAR NAT (that dates
me!)  Pilots often chose unique projects that could not compete with the
"slicker" ships.  A Schul Glider had a L/D of 15: or so.  If you took
the L/D and multiply it by say 10 seconds, that meant that your max time
had to be 150 seconds (2.5 minutes), which was reasonable for draggy,
early gliders.  If you had a Kestral, with an L/D of 36:1, that meant
360 seconds, or 6 minutes.  That was reasonable for a slick glider. 
That kept scale gliders of all vintages competitive.


So...let me ask this:

What happens if the launch is a discus launch of a 100" glider  NO
TOW TIME

Think about it.  If you know you can hand launch into a thermal, why
loose 4-5 seconds every time  Hello JW!!

Personally, any time you try to do this stuff, it always ends up with a
conclusion no one wants to fly!

Chris






  

 Original Message ----
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, July 15, 2008 6:03 am
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com
In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...
Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format.
You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write 
that time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and you 
towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a 
perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was 
a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would 
throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest

Suggestions ? Comments?
Craig

 
Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device 
that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and 
deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and take 
their time doing so without incurring the "time on tow" penalty. The penalty 
would then be for "time using power on tow."
 
Bill Wingstedt
 
**Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music 
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!  
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112)

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Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[David Webb]

That would be interesting. It could force short tows even in conditions that
are nominal. It's also good discipline for learning short launches and low
alt recovery.

I think the added man power requirement and potential for human error would
kill this if you added a launch time keeper at each station.

Each club would need a PA system and working times other wise individual
timers would be required for each launch. If they use a PA system thent he
time just starts and stops when the plane comes off the hook and
landssame outcome.

DW









On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Craig Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...
>
> Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD
> format.
>
> You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write
> that time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and you
> towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you
> flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if
> it was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it
> would throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest
>
> Suggestions ? Comments?
>
> Craig
>
>
>

Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[Jack Iafret]

Wow, another how you launch discussion! Check out the 18 pages of "stuff" on
RCGroups-Electric Sailplanes if you want to get all the in's and out's of
launching in a TD contest with motors. It is under the "F5J" thread
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883683.

It is a worthwhile discussion on how to save the Electric Sailplane Nat's by
getting winch launched TD pilots involved in using electric motors to launch
F3J style to a specific altitude and making it a real sailplane contest.

Our club is experimenting with this a little and I hope to organize a demo
sometime during the WL Nat's to generate some interest. So far our club
likes both launch methods but the impromptu MOM contest with electrics is
winning. No winch problems and almost any plane or power system works. I am
still tweaking some of the little differences we will need for F5J but hope
to have a rules set built within the next year and tested over the next
couple of years (maybe at the Nat's like I did with Nostalgia) before
submitting a rules change proposal to AMA.

Jack

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:03 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...
>
> Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD
> format.
>
> You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write
> that time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and
> you
> towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you
> flew a
> perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it
> was
> a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would
> throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest
>
> Suggestions ? Comments?
>
> Craig
> 
>
> Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a
> device
> that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and
> deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top
> and take
> their time doing so without incurring the "time on tow" penalty. The
> penalty
> would then be for "time using power on tow."
>
> Bill Wingstedt
>
>
>
>
> **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live
> music
> scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!
> (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112)
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and
> "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that
> subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with
> MIME turned off.  Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL
> are generally NOT in text format
>



-- 
Jack Iafret
Home and Hobbies

RE: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[chris]

Craig,

What is with messing around with winch time  All minimizing winch
time does is make planes go up faster, and have them built like
composite bullets.  

Why not do something simple, like take the weight of the plane, mulitply
it by seconds and get a max time you have to fly??

We once talked about this , way back, when people used to fly scale, or
really stand off scale in the LSF tounaments and SSOAR NAT (that dates
me!)  Pilots often chose unique projects that could not compete with the
"slicker" ships.  A Schul Glider had a L/D of 15: or so.  If you took
the L/D and multiply it by say 10 seconds, that meant that your max time
had to be 150 seconds (2.5 minutes), which was reasonable for draggy,
early gliders.  If you had a Kestral, with an L/D of 36:1, that meant
360 seconds, or 6 minutes.  That was reasonable for a slick glider. 
That kept scale gliders of all vintages competitive.

So...let me ask this:

What happens if the launch is a discus launch of a 100" glider  NO
TOW TIME

Think about it.  If you know you can hand launch into a thermal, why
loose 4-5 seconds every time  Hello JW!!

Personally, any time you try to do this stuff, it always ends up with a
conclusion no one wants to fly!

Chris






>  Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Tue, July 15, 2008 6:03 am
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], soaring@airage.com
> In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...
> Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format.
> You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write 
> that time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and you 
> towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you 
> flew a 
> perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was 
> a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would 
> throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest
> Suggestions ? Comments?
> Craig
> 
>  
> Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device 
> that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and 
> deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and 
> take 
> their time doing so without incurring the "time on tow" penalty. The penalty 
> would then be for "time using power on tow."
>  
> Bill Wingstedt
>  
> **Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music 
> scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!  
> (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112)
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
> "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that subscribe and 
> unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.  
> Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in 
> text format

RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
"unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that subscribe and 
unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.  
Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in 
text format

Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[Wwing]

In a message dated 07/14/2008 8:21:54 PM Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...

Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format.

You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write 
that time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and you 
towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you 
flew a 
perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was 
a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would 
throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest

Suggestions ? Comments?

Craig

 
Having read the other replies, I think the solution would be to have a device 
that timed the length of time the winch motor was on for the launch and 
deduct that from the score. That would allow a woody to tap up to the top and 
take 
their time doing so without incurring the "time on tow" penalty. The penalty 
would then be for "time using power on tow."
 
Bill Wingstedt
 



**Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music 
scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com!  
(http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus0005000112)
RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
"unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that subscribe and 
unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.  
Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in 
text format

Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[winchdoc]

So for DP and JW to beat us, they would have the shortest time on the tow, and 
a hunski landing. The TD portion would bury those that did not get their time. 
I predict some folks might stress the equipment in order to gain advantage.
AMA TD rules have the CD responsible for the launch equipment. If you think 
there are line break issues now, wait till a speedy as well as high launch 
becomes the strategy. 
Not saying it's bad or good, just that's how I would play by those rules.

F3J requires you to bring your own launch equipment. If you break a line, or 
sprain a linebacker towman, it's your issue, not the CD's.


WinchDoc
...back to lurking...

-- Original message -- 
From: Craig Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...

Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format.

You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that 
time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed 
for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a 
perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 
6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw 
more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest

Suggestions ? Comments?

Craig

Re: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[DAN FINK]

And you are going to handle line breaks on the winches how?  There isn't a line 
used that can't be busted on a full-go-for-it-screw-the-abuse-of-winch launch.  
Been seeing it for nearly 30 years and doing for nearly as long.

Dan Fink 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Craig Allen 
  To: soaring@airage.com 
  Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:21 PM
  Subject: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD?


  After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...

  Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format.

  You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write 
that time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and you 
towed for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you 
flew a perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it 
was a 6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would 
throw more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest

  Suggestions ? Comments?

  Craig

RE: [RCSE] Contest idea....Time on tow penalty for TD?

[Craig Allen]

Gospodarek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  0   DocumentEmail  And then another approach:
   
  How about adding the time on tow as a bonus so you don’t penalize the 
non-moldy pilots that know how to use a winch. Maybe we could stop the no skill 
full pedal strength wars.
   
  John


As someone who knows how to Tap Tap Tap then pedal and zoom.. I like that idea 
:-).. It works for moldies too :-)

   
  -Original Message-
 From: Craig Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:21 PM
 To: soaring@airage.com
 Subject: [RCSE] Contest ideaTime on tow penalty for TD?
   
  After watching the World F3J  I had an idea for a contest...
 
 Incorporate the time penalty on tow that they have in F3J but in a TD format.
 
 You would have a timer at each winch who would time your launch and write that 
time down on your card...  For example if it were a 10 min task and you towed 
for 6 sec the best time you could get would be a 9:54 even though you flew a 
perfect 10... Or even better... Double the time on tow penalty, so if it was a 
6 sec tow the best time you could get would be 9:48. Seems to me it would throw 
more strategy and fun into a normal TD contest
 
 Suggestions ? Comments?
 
 Craig