Re: Mental Ray Features, Integration & Autodesk's failure

[Stefan Andersson]

+1 to what Greg said.

If you want to go Old School, use the old tools. Dont try and make the new
tools act like the old tools.

/stefan


On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:

>  Screw legacy,  software will never be clean or robust if you keep adding
> new stuff while while keeping all the old krusty stuff around.
>
> If you need legacy tools use legacy software.
>
> Forward
>
>  --
> *Greg Punchatz*
>  *Sr. Creative Director*
> Janimation
> 214.823.7760
> www.janimation.com
>  On 11/9/2012 1:11 PM, Matt Lind wrote:
>
>  That’s great for productions with short timelines as they don’t have to
> worry about the legacy support. The project I’m on now has been going for
> nearly 8 years and is expected to go for another 5-10 years.  In such an
> environment it’s not unusual for an asset to be created and then not
> touched again for years at a time.  When it is touched again, it’s usually
> to fix a bug reported by QA or a customer playing our game.  We absolutely
> cannot afford to have entire systems such as the particle system pulled out
> from under our feet like that because if such an asset has to be exhumed
> for a bug fix, we cannot open the scene file anymore and essentially lose
> the asset.  Fortunately we weren’t using the particle system at the time so
> we weren’t affected, but the point remains.  If we had been using the old
> particle system and that switch were made today…that would effectively lock
> us into whatever version of the software we were using at the time for rest
> of the project.  I’m not too keen about spending the next 10 years in
> Softimage 7.5.  Not only for the lack of modern features, but the support
> issues that go with trying to maintain and keep an old product alive that
> nobody will support.  Just the other day our 7.5 licenses expired.  That’s
> right, ‘expired’.   It shut our production down for a day unexpectedly.
> I’m sure Autodesk would like to continue receiving subscription payments
> from us.  So there has to be a better path mapped out than what Softimage
> did with migrating to ICE cold turkey.  And that involves better planning
> of features from the get-go instead of frankensteining them on later.  If a
> cold turkey switch must be made, then the legacy support needs to remain
> now matter how painful it is to maintain as there are customers with a lot
> at stake.
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Matt
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [
> mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Meng-Yang Lu
> *Sent:* Friday, November 09, 2012 11:02 AM
> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> *Subject:* Re: Mental Ray Features, Integration & Autodesk's failure
>
> ** **
>
> Well, they did do this with ICE deprecating the old particles system.  I
> still remember reading "You know this day was coming." in the XSI docs.
> Now look at the huge forward leap that ICE has provided to FX in
> Softimage.
>
> I think when you have a huge number of artists willing to dump one system
> for a completely new system, the value of retaining legacy pretty much goes
> out the window does it not?  I would've taken that as a wake up call.  MR
> and Autodesk need to understand this, not just on rendering, but multiple
> aspects of cg production.
>
> -Lu
>
> 
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Matt Lind 
> wrote:
>
> The sad truth is the rendering integration is not as independent as one
> would think or like.  I’ve been writing mental ray shaders for a long time
> (10+ years), and even today am shocked how touchy Softimage is when loading
> a scene which uses custom shaders not installed on the current computer –
> 99% of the time it’s a hang and crash.  In order for me to load an old
> scene from, say XSI v2.0 when I was developing a particular shader, I have
> to have the shader from that era installed to get the scene open.
>
>  
>
> When you consider the rest of the rendering system is built like that,
> that’s why a lot of stagnation occurs.  Either AD has to be bold and say
> screw old content for the sake of progress, or we have a slow moving boat
> for the sake of compatibility.  There’s also the reality that when a system
> is iterated over the years, it requires more manpower to take it to the
> next level.  V1.0 may take 2 people, but v2.0 might require a 3rd to help
> out because the system has gotten larger, more complex and with more moving
> pieces which must all be done in sync.  There’s also the fact the system
> must integrate with other departments such as UI, animation, modeling, and
> whatever else comes in contact.  Over the years the trend has been to have
> fewer developers on staff.  This creates a situation where it’s not
> possible to roll out an iteration in a single release, but instead have to
> spread it out over two releases due to the constraints of resources.
>
>  
>
> Th

Re: Mental Ray Features, Integration & Autodesk's failure

[peter_b]

easy to say if your average project lifetime is weeks or months tops, and if 
going back into old projects is rarely, if ever, done.
This has nothing to do with being Old School, or “new tools having to act like 
old tools”, you’re quite missing the point.

Film and Games projects can span years. (I hadn’t imagined the amount of years 
Matt referred to – ouch) 
Studios can maintain a library over the years and projects.
Being able to save data to a specific version, being able to load (within 
reason) files from other versions, saving ascii data, more atomic data formats, 
preserving and encapsulating data for non-installed plugins and shaders, data 
licensing support for old versions... there are lots of aspects to this and 
Softimage is not very accommodating in any of them – substantially less so than 
the competition I might add.
Legacy support is the most viable option failing better solutions out of the 
box - if this hinders forwards progress, its about time some better data 
strategies were provided.



From: Stefan Andersson 
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:52 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com 
Subject: Re: Mental Ray Features, Integration & Autodesk's failure

+1 to what Greg said. 

If you want to go Old School, use the old tools. Dont try and make the new 
tools act like the old tools.

/stefan



On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:

  Screw legacy,  software will never be clean or robust if you keep adding new 
stuff while while keeping all the old krusty stuff around. 

  If you need legacy tools use legacy software. 

  Forward 


--
  Greg Punchatz

  Sr. Creative Director
  Janimation
  214.823.7760
  www.janimation.com 
  On 11/9/2012 1:11 PM, Matt Lind wrote:

That’s great for productions with short timelines as they don’t have to 
worry about the legacy support. The project I’m on now has been going for 
nearly 8 years and is expected to go for another 5-10 years.  In such an 
environment it’s not unusual for an asset to be created and then not touched 
again for years at a time.  When it is touched again, it’s usually to fix a bug 
reported by QA or a customer playing our game.  We absolutely cannot afford to 
have entire systems such as the particle system pulled out from under our feet 
like that because if such an asset has to be exhumed for a bug fix, we cannot 
open the scene file anymore and essentially lose the asset.  Fortunately we 
weren’t using the particle system at the time so we weren’t affected, but the 
point remains.  If we had been using the old particle system and that switch 
were made today…that would effectively lock us into whatever version of the 
software we were using at the time for rest of the project.  I’m not too keen 
about spending the next 10 years in Softimage 7.5.  Not only for the lack of 
modern features, but the support issues that go with trying to maintain and 
keep an old product alive that nobody will support.  Just the other day our 7.5 
licenses expired.  That’s right, ‘expired’.   It shut our production down for a 
day unexpectedly.  I’m sure Autodesk would like to continue receiving 
subscription payments from us.  So there has to be a better path mapped out 
than what Softimage did with migrating to ICE cold turkey.  And that involves 
better planning of features from the get-go instead of frankensteining them on 
later.  If a cold turkey switch must be made, then the legacy support needs to 
remain now matter how painful it is to maintain as there are customers with a 
lot at stake.





Matt













From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Meng-Yang Lu
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2012 11:02 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Mental Ray Features, Integration & Autodesk's failure



Well, they did do this with ICE deprecating the old particles system.  I 
still remember reading "You know this day was coming." in the XSI docs.  Now 
look at the huge forward leap that ICE has provided to FX in Softimage.  

I think when you have a huge number of artists willing to dump one system 
for a completely new system, the value of retaining legacy pretty much goes out 
the window does it not?  I would've taken that as a wake up call.  MR and 
Autodesk need to understand this, not just on rendering, but multiple aspects 
of cg production.  

-Lu





On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Matt Lind  wrote:

The sad truth is the rendering integration is not as independent as one 
would think or like.  I’ve been writing mental ray shaders for a long time (10+ 
years), and even today am shocked how touchy Softimage is when loading a scene 
which uses custom shaders not installed on the current computer – 99% of the 
time it’s a hang and crash.  In order for me to load an old scene from, say XSI 
v2.0 when I was developing a part

Re: update on Creation integration to Softimage

[Sebastian Kowalski]

I am seeing myself in that same league, more as a technical driven 3d artist.
so far i couldn't dive into the creation platform that much, but i talk a lot 
to helge, and he is giving me confidence that this is an useful thing for 
people like me (us). 
for now I just have my "custom operator" thinking, keeping all in soft image 
and process all math via creation platform.
like having a custom ice node, besides i won't need to code that in c++ (and 
there is the catch, cause I can't code in C#). but i guess that won't stop 
there. (exciting!)
all these modules the guys from fabric come up with, build up a pretty toolbox 
so far.
for now i do not have an urgent need for a tool (maybe i have, the moment I 
really understand what all this is about), but i hope i can finally find some 
time to check that stuff out. 

helge will explain that better than I could. 
sebastian


Am 10.11.2012 um 04:06 schrieb Dan Yargici :

> This pretty much sums me up also, and I've found myself asking the very same 
> questions!
> 
> I've also been keenly following the development of FE but I'm not sure I have 
> the chops to put it to proper use...
> 
> Really looking forward to your response!
> 
> DAN
> On 10 Nov 2012 01:12, "Andy Moorer"  wrote:
> Helge, I find the creation platform both really exciting, and from what I've 
> seen as it grows its learning curve intimidating. 
> 
> I'm an artist-turned-TD and a script monkey largely educated by watching your 
> jscript videos and lectures at Barnyard, and later taking Raffaele's 
> workshop... plus self training, bothering folks like you, Graham and Brad, 
> and a (nasty) year spent in Mel. 
> 
> In other words, I'm (I think) a pretty typical non-developer technical artist.
> 
> Is the Creation Platform something for folks like me, who spends about 40% of 
> my time scripting and the rest in creating assets and reasonably complex 
> stuff in ICE? Or is it targeted squarely at TDs who spend the bulk of their 
> time scripting, ie more for those at the developer end of the scale? 
> 
> Not that I'm not willing to always be stretching my capabilities to grow as a 
> TD and artist. I'm just trying to figure out who you see as the typical 
> Fabric Creation Platform user.
> 
> Kudos to the regular outreach and amazingly fast and production-targeted 
> development of Fabric, it's been really awesome to watch it come to life.
> 
> On Nov 9, 2012, at 2:53 AM, Helge Mathee  wrote:
> 
>> yes - the CreationPlatformCAPI will be shipped working on all three 
>> operating systems.
>> 
>> On 08.11.2012 23:01, Xavier Lapointe wrote:
>>> Had the same question on my mind actually.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Eric Thivierge  wrote:
>>> So the integration with Softimage is working on Linux?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Eric Thivierge
>>> http://www.ethivierge.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Helge Mathee  wrote:
>>> Linux is fully supported for everything. As is OSX.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 08.11.2012 15:01, Raffaele Fragapane wrote:
 Hey Helge,
 This might be of enough general interest to post here rather than in 
 private.
 How are you guys faring on the linux front these days?
 
 On Nov 8, 2012 8:08 PM, "Helge Mathee"  wrote:
 Thanks guys!
 
 Now, I've stated that on the Creation Platform mailing list already:
 
 I am aware that people are impressed by the videos we publish and 
 interested in Creation
 Platform generally. We are doing workshops and user group both in Montreal 
 and London
 this month, but aside from that I would like to encourage people to start 
 evaluating 
 Creation Platform for production scenarios. I realize that there's a 
 learning curve attached to
 that, so I am willing to provide as much help as necessary and lead the 
 way for anybody
 interested in seriously evaluating CP. At this stage I am looking for 
 production references
 for certain features, so please mail me privately if you are interested in 
 collaborating.
 
 Best!
 
 -H
 
 On 08.11.2012 09:17, Andreas Böinghoff wrote:
> wow! this is getting more and more exciting!
> 
> On 11/7/2012 9:06 PM, Paul Doyle wrote:
>> Hi guys – this is a preview of the work that Helge is doing on the 
>> Creation Platform API: https://vimeo.com/groups/fabric/videos/53026583
>> 
>>  
>> The new API provides full access to all CP features in C++. This 
>> includes high performance data access (void * access to internal data) 
>> as well as SceneGraph level features such as Undo, Manipulation, Import 
>> / Export etc.
>> 
>>  
>> We’ll be presenting this in more detail at the Softimage London 
>> usergroup on Tuesday 13th November 
>> (http://www.softimagecreatives.com/siclondon/?page_id=1218).
>> 
>>  
>> We’ll be showing this running in Maya (as well as demoing on Softimage 
>> 

Re: OT: Anyone living in China?

[Paul Griswold]

Hey Chris!

Well, it would have involved calling a factory over there.  I think I've
managed to deal with the situation.  My wife and I have a small online shop
& we decided to try selling stuff from a vendor out of China.  We paid them
& then never heard back.  Finally just a couple of minutes after posting
that to the Softimage list I heard back from the manager of the place.
 Apparently the salesman who had our account took the money (and money from
all of his customers) and left.  Thankfully the company is honoring our
order & they say we'll get a confirmation on monday.

It was a fairly stressful week because we decided to defray the costs by
pre-selling things.  So we've already got a bunch of stuff sold & suddenly
the guy disappears!

Anyway, that's the status.  Hopefully it's ok and we won't need anyone to
call them.

Thanks!!

Paul



On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Chris Chia  wrote:

> Do u need a guy who is living in China?
> Or do you need a guy who can speak Chinese?
>
>
> Chris
>
> On 9 Nov, 2012, at 6:40 PM, "Paul Griswold" <
> pgrisw...@fusiondigitalproductions.com pgrisw...@fusiondigitalproductions.com>> wrote:
>
> Are there any Soft users on this list living in China currently (who can
> speak Chinese) that could help me out?
>
> Please contact me off-list.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
>
>

Re: update on Creation integration to Softimage

[Helge Mathee]

Andy, Dan, Sebastian,

Creation Platform is targeted at the TD level user, however you don't 
have to be a full time TD do be able to use it. I'll be showing the new 
Softimage integration next week in London, and will hopefully also put 
these videos online. With this new integration you can build an 
application purely in python, while we provide all of the major building 
blocks of course (such as camera, viewport, geomety etc) and on top of 
it you can inject your custom behaviour. May it be a custom painting 
tool, a custom deformer, a custom rig etc. Now using the integration you 
can then load this pyhton application into Softimage and start using it 
within Soft. you can use ICE to push data in and out, and you'll be able 
to use your custom interactive tools directly in the Softimage viewport.


I am pushing forward to provide more workshops and training. Phil just 
did a workshop on Montreal this week, I'll be hosting one in London next 
week, but I am also planning to do online workshops as well as more 
workshops in Europe.


Creation Platform is ready to be used in production, but more 
importantly I am absolutely willing to help turn around current projects 
to push Creation Platform out there. So if you are considering to use it 
for a certain project, ring me up. I'll be able to help you jump through 
the first hoops. You be jumping higher yourself before you know it.


I hope this helps. And oh Sebastian it is about time we start a local 
workshop in Hamburg. :)


-H

On 11/10/2012 11:02 AM, Sebastian Kowalski wrote:
I am seeing myself in that same league, more as a technical driven 3d 
artist.
so far i couldn't dive into the creation platform that much, but i 
talk a lot to helge, and he is giving me confidence that this is an 
useful thing for people like me (us).
for now I just have my "custom operator" thinking, keeping all in soft 
image and process all math via creation platform.
like having a custom ice node, besides i won't need to code that in 
c++ (and there is the catch, cause I can't code in C#). but i guess 
that won't stop there. (exciting!)
all these modules the guys from fabric come up with, build up a pretty 
toolbox so far.
for now i do not have an urgent need for a tool (maybe i have, the 
moment I really understand what all this is about), but i hope i can 
finally find some time to check that stuff out.


helge will explain that better than I could.
sebastian


Am 10.11.2012 um 04:06 schrieb Dan Yargici >:


This pretty much sums me up also, and I've found myself asking the 
very same questions!


I've also been keenly following the development of FE but I'm not 
sure I have the chops to put it to proper use...


Really looking forward to your response!

DAN

On 10 Nov 2012 01:12, "Andy Moorer" > wrote:


Helge, I find the creation platform both really exciting, and
from what I've seen as it grows its learning curve intimidating.

I'm an artist-turned-TD and a script monkey largely educated by
watching your jscript videos and lectures at Barnyard, and later
taking Raffaele's workshop... plus self training, bothering folks
like you, Graham and Brad, and a (nasty) year spent in Mel.

In other words, I'm (I think) a pretty typical non-developer
technical artist.

Is the Creation Platform something for folks like me, who spends
about 40% of my time scripting and the rest in creating assets
and reasonably complex stuff in ICE? Or is it targeted squarely
at TDs who spend the bulk of their time scripting, ie more for
those at the developer end of the scale?

Not that I'm not willing to always be stretching my capabilities
to grow as a TD and artist. I'm just trying to figure out who you
see as the typical Fabric Creation Platform user.

Kudos to the regular outreach and amazingly fast and
production-targeted development of Fabric, it's been really
awesome to watch it come to life.

On Nov 9, 2012, at 2:53 AM, Helge Mathee mailto:helge.mat...@gmx.net>> wrote:


yes - the CreationPlatformCAPI will be shipped working on all
three operating systems.

On 08.11.2012 23:01, Xavier Lapointe wrote:

Had the same question on my mind actually.

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Eric Thivierge
mailto:ethivie...@gmail.com>> wrote:

So the integration with Softimage is working on Linux?


Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com 


On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Helge Mathee
mailto:helge.mat...@gmx.net>> wrote:

Linux is fully supported for everything. As is OSX.


On 08.11.2012 15:01, Raffaele Fragapane wrote:


Hey Helge,
This might be of enough general interest to post here
rather than in private.
How are you guys faring on the linux front

Re: update on Creation integration to Softimage

[Christian Keller]

 Hey Helge,
a Hamburg Workshop Sounds really cool!
Cheers,
Chris

-- 
christian keller
visual effects|direction

m +49 179 69 36 248
f +49 40 386 835 33
chris3...@me.com

gesendet von meinem iDing

Am 10.11.2012 um 13:17 schrieb Helge Mathee :

> Andy, Dan, Sebastian,
> 
> Creation Platform is targeted at the TD level user, however you don't have to 
> be a full time TD do be able to use it. I'll be showing the new Softimage 
> integration next week in London, and will hopefully also put these videos 
> online. With this new integration you can build an application purely in 
> python, while we provide all of the major building blocks of course (such as 
> camera, viewport, geomety etc) and on top of it you can inject your custom 
> behaviour. May it be a custom painting tool, a custom deformer, a custom rig 
> etc. Now using the integration you can then load this pyhton application into 
> Softimage and start using it within Soft. you can use ICE to push data in and 
> out, and you'll be able to use your custom interactive tools directly in the 
> Softimage viewport.
> 
> I am pushing forward to provide more workshops and training. Phil just did a 
> workshop on Montreal this week, I'll be hosting one in London next week, but 
> I am also planning to do online workshops as well as more workshops in Europe.
> 
> Creation Platform is ready to be used in production, but more importantly I 
> am absolutely willing to help turn around current projects to push Creation 
> Platform out there. So if you are considering to use it for a certain 
> project, ring me up. I'll be able to help you jump through the first hoops. 
> You be jumping higher yourself before you know it.
> 
> I hope this helps. And oh Sebastian it is about time we start a local 
> workshop in Hamburg. :)
> 
> -H
> 
> On 11/10/2012 11:02 AM, Sebastian Kowalski wrote:
>> I am seeing myself in that same league, more as a technical driven 3d artist.
>> so far i couldn't dive into the creation platform that much, but i talk a 
>> lot to helge, and he is giving me confidence that this is an useful thing 
>> for people like me (us). 
>> for now I just have my "custom operator" thinking, keeping all in soft image 
>> and process all math via creation platform.
>> like having a custom ice node, besides i won't need to code that in c++ (and 
>> there is the catch, cause I can't code in C#). but i guess that won't stop 
>> there. (exciting!)
>> all these modules the guys from fabric come up with, build up a pretty 
>> toolbox so far.
>> for now i do not have an urgent need for a tool (maybe i have, the moment I 
>> really understand what all this is about), but i hope i can finally find 
>> some time to check that stuff out. 
>> 
>> helge will explain that better than I could. 
>> sebastian
>> 
>> 
>> Am 10.11.2012 um 04:06 schrieb Dan Yargici :
>> 
>>> This pretty much sums me up also, and I've found myself asking the very 
>>> same questions!
>>> 
>>> I've also been keenly following the development of FE but I'm not sure I 
>>> have the chops to put it to proper use...
>>> 
>>> Really looking forward to your response!
>>> 
>>> DAN
>>> On 10 Nov 2012 01:12, "Andy Moorer"  wrote:
 Helge, I find the creation platform both really exciting, and from what 
 I've seen as it grows its learning curve intimidating. 
 
 I'm an artist-turned-TD and a script monkey largely educated by watching 
 your jscript videos and lectures at Barnyard, and later taking Raffaele's 
 workshop... plus self training, bothering folks like you, Graham and Brad, 
 and a (nasty) year spent in Mel. 
 
 In other words, I'm (I think) a pretty typical non-developer technical 
 artist.
 
 Is the Creation Platform something for folks like me, who spends about 40% 
 of my time scripting and the rest in creating assets and reasonably 
 complex stuff in ICE? Or is it targeted squarely at TDs who spend the bulk 
 of their time scripting, ie more for those at the developer end of the 
 scale? 
 
 Not that I'm not willing to always be stretching my capabilities to grow 
 as a TD and artist. I'm just trying to figure out who you see as the 
 typical Fabric Creation Platform user.
 
 Kudos to the regular outreach and amazingly fast and production-targeted 
 development of Fabric, it's been really awesome to watch it come to life.
 
 On Nov 9, 2012, at 2:53 AM, Helge Mathee  wrote:
 
> yes - the CreationPlatformCAPI will be shipped working on all three 
> operating systems.
> 
> On 08.11.2012 23:01, Xavier Lapointe wrote:
>> Had the same question on my mind actually.
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Eric Thivierge  
>> wrote:
>>> So the integration with Softimage is working on Linux?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Eric Thivierge
>>> http://www.ethivierge.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 3:40 AM,

Re: Mental Ray Features, Integration & Autodesk's failure

[Stefan Andersson]

The thing is ( I have recently worked on a project that span over two years
) that once you start a project you will not upgrade until the project is
delivered. *If* you upgrade there *must be* a really damn good reason for
upgrading.

My thoughts,
The software versions that you use during this project should be backed up.
So if you need to open it up you should open it with those versions. If you
are making "my project 2.0", you have the ability to upgrade and also
"upgrade" your assets, or you can just use the old software.

With proper asset management you can also (hopefully) batch convert a lot
of your assets to fit the "new". And you can also save assets that are
version dependent (to save the old version).

There are just as many thoughts and angles on this matter as there are
studios and people. The above are my views, taken from my reality.

peace love understanding and all of that...

/stefan



On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 10:42 AM,  wrote:

>   easy to say if your average project lifetime is weeks or months tops,
> and if going back into old projects is rarely, if ever, done.
> This has nothing to do with being Old School, or “new tools having to act
> like old tools”, you’re quite missing the point.
>
> Film and Games projects can span years. (I hadn’t imagined the amount of
> years Matt referred to – ouch)
> Studios can maintain a library over the years and projects.
> Being able to save data to a specific version, being able to load (within
> reason) files from other versions, saving ascii data, more atomic data
> formats, preserving and encapsulating data for non-installed plugins and
> shaders, data licensing support for old versions... there are lots of
> aspects to this and Softimage is not very accommodating in any of them –
> substantially less so than the competition I might add.
> Legacy support is the most viable option failing better solutions out of
> the box - if this hinders forwards progress, its about time some better
> data strategies were provided.
>
>
>
>  *From:* Stefan Andersson 
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 10, 2012 9:52 AM
> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> *Subject:* Re: Mental Ray Features, Integration & Autodesk's failure
>
> +1 to what Greg said.
>
> If you want to go Old School, use the old tools. Dont try and make the new
> tools act like the old tools.
>
> /stefan
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:31 PM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:
>
>>  Screw legacy,  software will never be clean or robust if you keep
>> adding new stuff while while keeping all the old krusty stuff around.
>>
>> If you need legacy tools use legacy software.
>>
>> Forward
>>
>>  --
>> *Greg Punchatz*
>> *Sr. Creative Director*
>> Janimation
>> 214.823.7760
>> www.janimation.com
>>  On 11/9/2012 1:11 PM, Matt Lind wrote:
>>
>>  That’s great for productions with short timelines as they don’t have to
>> worry about the legacy support. The project I’m on now has been going for
>> nearly 8 years and is expected to go for another 5-10 years.  In such an
>> environment it’s not unusual for an asset to be created and then not
>> touched again for years at a time.  When it is touched again, it’s usually
>> to fix a bug reported by QA or a customer playing our game.  We absolutely
>> cannot afford to have entire systems such as the particle system pulled out
>> from under our feet like that because if such an asset has to be exhumed
>> for a bug fix, we cannot open the scene file anymore and essentially lose
>> the asset.  Fortunately we weren’t using the particle system at the time so
>> we weren’t affected, but the point remains.  If we had been using the old
>> particle system and that switch were made today…that would effectively lock
>> us into whatever version of the software we were using at the time for rest
>> of the project.  I’m not too keen about spending the next 10 years in
>> Softimage 7.5.  Not only for the lack of modern features, but the support
>> issues that go with trying to maintain and keep an old product alive that
>> nobody will support.  Just the other day our 7.5 licenses expired.  That’s
>> right, ‘expired’.   It shut our production down for a day unexpectedly.
>> I’m sure Autodesk would like to continue receiving subscription payments
>> from us.  So there has to be a better path mapped out than what Softimage
>> did with migrating to ICE cold turkey.  And that involves better planning
>> of features from the get-go instead of frankensteining them on later.  If a
>> cold turkey switch must be made, then the legacy support needs to remain
>> now matter how painful it is to maintain as there are customers with a lot
>> at stake.
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [
>> mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
>> *On Behalf Of *Meng-Yang Lu
>> *Sent:* Friday, November 09, 2012 11:02 AM
>> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> *

Automatic application of thousands of Rendermaps

[Eric Deren]

Happy Saturday (except for folks where it's already Sunday):

I've got a scene with thousands of stationary objects, and I want to take 
the current lighting/material/texturing solution of the entire scene and 
bake it into constant-shaded texture(s) for render optimization.   Is there 
an easy way to do that?  I can easily generate a directory full of 
rendermaps for every object, but applying each of them to each object as a 
constant-shaded texture seems like something I'd have to script.  I'd love 
to be wrong here.


It seems like this is something the real-time folks would need to do all 
the time, so I was surprised when the solution wasn't readily apparent.


Does anyone have experience with this?   Thank you in advance!

-Eric

Re: update on Creation integration to Softimage

[Sebastian Kowalski]

oh boy, i can see how this gonna end ;)
but yeah, fabric selbsthilfegruppe.. i like

sebastian

Am 10.11.2012 um 13:25 schrieb Christian Keller :

>  Hey Helge,
> a Hamburg Workshop Sounds really cool!
> Cheers,
> Chris
> 
> -- 
> christian keller
> visual effects|direction
> 
> m +49 179 69 36 248
> f +49 40 386 835 33
> chris3...@me.com
> 
> gesendet von meinem iDing
> 
> Am 10.11.2012 um 13:17 schrieb Helge Mathee :
> 
>> Andy, Dan, Sebastian,
>> 
>> Creation Platform is targeted at the TD level user, however you don't have 
>> to be a full time TD do be able to use it. I'll be showing the new Softimage 
>> integration next week in London, and will hopefully also put these videos 
>> online. With this new integration you can build an application purely in 
>> python, while we provide all of the major building blocks of course (such as 
>> camera, viewport, geomety etc) and on top of it you can inject your custom 
>> behaviour. May it be a custom painting tool, a custom deformer, a custom rig 
>> etc. Now using the integration you can then load this pyhton application 
>> into Softimage and start using it within Soft. you can use ICE to push data 
>> in and out, and you'll be able to use your custom interactive tools directly 
>> in the Softimage viewport.
>> 
>> I am pushing forward to provide more workshops and training. Phil just did a 
>> workshop on Montreal this week, I'll be hosting one in London next week, but 
>> I am also planning to do online workshops as well as more workshops in 
>> Europe.
>> 
>> Creation Platform is ready to be used in production, but more importantly I 
>> am absolutely willing to help turn around current projects to push Creation 
>> Platform out there. So if you are considering to use it for a certain 
>> project, ring me up. I'll be able to help you jump through the first hoops. 
>> You be jumping higher yourself before you know it.
>> 
>> I hope this helps. And oh Sebastian it is about time we start a local 
>> workshop in Hamburg. :)
>> 
>> -H
>> 
>> On 11/10/2012 11:02 AM, Sebastian Kowalski wrote:
>>> I am seeing myself in that same league, more as a technical driven 3d 
>>> artist.
>>> so far i couldn't dive into the creation platform that much, but i talk a 
>>> lot to helge, and he is giving me confidence that this is an useful thing 
>>> for people like me (us). 
>>> for now I just have my "custom operator" thinking, keeping all in soft 
>>> image and process all math via creation platform.
>>> like having a custom ice node, besides i won't need to code that in c++ 
>>> (and there is the catch, cause I can't code in C#). but i guess that won't 
>>> stop there. (exciting!)
>>> all these modules the guys from fabric come up with, build up a pretty 
>>> toolbox so far.
>>> for now i do not have an urgent need for a tool (maybe i have, the moment I 
>>> really understand what all this is about), but i hope i can finally find 
>>> some time to check that stuff out. 
>>> 
>>> helge will explain that better than I could. 
>>> sebastian
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Am 10.11.2012 um 04:06 schrieb Dan Yargici :
>>> 
 This pretty much sums me up also, and I've found myself asking the very 
 same questions!
 
 I've also been keenly following the development of FE but I'm not sure I 
 have the chops to put it to proper use...
 
 Really looking forward to your response!
 
 DAN
 On 10 Nov 2012 01:12, "Andy Moorer"  wrote:
 Helge, I find the creation platform both really exciting, and from what 
 I've seen as it grows its learning curve intimidating. 
 
 I'm an artist-turned-TD and a script monkey largely educated by watching 
 your jscript videos and lectures at Barnyard, and later taking Raffaele's 
 workshop... plus self training, bothering folks like you, Graham and Brad, 
 and a (nasty) year spent in Mel. 
 
 In other words, I'm (I think) a pretty typical non-developer technical 
 artist.
 
 Is the Creation Platform something for folks like me, who spends about 40% 
 of my time scripting and the rest in creating assets and reasonably 
 complex stuff in ICE? Or is it targeted squarely at TDs who spend the bulk 
 of their time scripting, ie more for those at the developer end of the 
 scale? 
 
 Not that I'm not willing to always be stretching my capabilities to grow 
 as a TD and artist. I'm just trying to figure out who you see as the 
 typical Fabric Creation Platform user.
 
 Kudos to the regular outreach and amazingly fast and production-targeted 
 development of Fabric, it's been really awesome to watch it come to life.
 
 On Nov 9, 2012, at 2:53 AM, Helge Mathee  wrote:
 
> yes - the CreationPlatformCAPI will be shipped working on all three 
> operating systems.
> 
> On 08.11.2012 23:01, Xavier Lapointe wrote:
>> Had the same question on my mind actually.
>> 
>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Eric Thivierge  
>>

Re: Automatic application of thousands of Rendermaps

[Stephen Blair]

Maybe this?
http://www.sajjadamjad.com/plugins.html#Mapify

On 10/11/2012 9:36 AM, Eric Deren wrote:

Happy Saturday (except for folks where it's already Sunday):

I've got a scene with thousands of stationary objects, and I want to 
take the current lighting/material/texturing solution of the entire 
scene and bake it into constant-shaded texture(s) for render 
optimization.   Is there an easy way to do that?  I can easily 
generate a directory full of rendermaps for every object, but applying 
each of them to each object as a constant-shaded texture seems like 
something I'd have to script.  I'd love to be wrong here.


It seems like this is something the real-time folks would need to do 
all the time, so I was surprised when the solution wasn't readily 
apparent.


Does anyone have experience with this?   Thank you in advance!

-Eric

Re: update on Creation integration to Softimage

[Helge Mathee]

yep - I am considering to do a workshop on the saturday,
24th of november. I'll try to get some of the hamburg based
devs and TDs in, if that would work for you guys.

I will send an official email next week.

On 11/10/2012 1:25 PM, Christian Keller wrote:

 Hey Helge,
a Hamburg Workshop Sounds really cool!
Cheers,
Chris

--
christian keller
visual effects|direction

m +49 179 69 36 248
f +49 40 386 835 33
chris3...@me.com 

gesendet von meinem iDing

Am 10.11.2012 um 13:17 schrieb Helge Mathee >:



Andy, Dan, Sebastian,

Creation Platform is targeted at the TD level user, however you don't 
have to be a full time TD do be able to use it. I'll be showing the 
new Softimage integration next week in London, and will hopefully 
also put these videos online. With this new integration you can build 
an application purely in python, while we provide all of the major 
building blocks of course (such as camera, viewport, geomety etc) and 
on top of it you can inject your custom behaviour. May it be a custom 
painting tool, a custom deformer, a custom rig etc. Now using the 
integration you can then load this pyhton application into Softimage 
and start using it within Soft. you can use ICE to push data in and 
out, and you'll be able to use your custom interactive tools directly 
in the Softimage viewport.


I am pushing forward to provide more workshops and training. Phil 
just did a workshop on Montreal this week, I'll be hosting one in 
London next week, but I am also planning to do online workshops as 
well as more workshops in Europe.


Creation Platform is ready to be used in production, but more 
importantly I am absolutely willing to help turn around current 
projects to push Creation Platform out there. So if you are 
considering to use it for a certain project, ring me up. I'll be able 
to help you jump through the first hoops. You be jumping higher 
yourself before you know it.


I hope this helps. And oh Sebastian it is about time we start a local 
workshop in Hamburg. :)


-H

On 11/10/2012 11:02 AM, Sebastian Kowalski wrote:
I am seeing myself in that same league, more as a technical driven 
3d artist.
so far i couldn't dive into the creation platform that much, but i 
talk a lot to helge, and he is giving me confidence that this is an 
useful thing for people like me (us).
for now I just have my "custom operator" thinking, keeping all in 
soft image and process all math via creation platform.
like having a custom ice node, besides i won't need to code that in 
c++ (and there is the catch, cause I can't code in C#). but i guess 
that won't stop there. (exciting!)
all these modules the guys from fabric come up with, build up a 
pretty toolbox so far.
for now i do not have an urgent need for a tool (maybe i have, the 
moment I really understand what all this is about), but i hope i can 
finally find some time to check that stuff out.


helge will explain that better than I could.
sebastian


Am 10.11.2012 um 04:06 schrieb Dan Yargici >:


This pretty much sums me up also, and I've found myself asking the 
very same questions!


I've also been keenly following the development of FE but I'm not 
sure I have the chops to put it to proper use...


Really looking forward to your response!

DAN

On 10 Nov 2012 01:12, "Andy Moorer" > wrote:


Helge, I find the creation platform both really exciting, and
from what I've seen as it grows its learning curve intimidating.

I'm an artist-turned-TD and a script monkey largely educated by
watching your jscript videos and lectures at Barnyard, and
later taking Raffaele's workshop... plus self training,
bothering folks like you, Graham and Brad, and a (nasty) year
spent in Mel.

In other words, I'm (I think) a pretty typical non-developer
technical artist.

Is the Creation Platform something for folks like me, who
spends about 40% of my time scripting and the rest in creating
assets and reasonably complex stuff in ICE? Or is it targeted
squarely at TDs who spend the bulk of their time scripting, ie
more for those at the developer end of the scale?

Not that I'm not willing to always be stretching my
capabilities to grow as a TD and artist. I'm just trying to
figure out who you see as the typical Fabric Creation Platform
user.

Kudos to the regular outreach and amazingly fast and
production-targeted development of Fabric, it's been really
awesome to watch it come to life.

On Nov 9, 2012, at 2:53 AM, Helge Mathee mailto:helge.mat...@gmx.net>> wrote:


yes - the CreationPlatformCAPI will be shipped working on all
three operating systems.

On 08.11.2012 23:01, Xavier Lapointe wrote:

Had the same question on my mind actually.

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 8:58 AM, Eric Thivierge
mailto:ethivie...@gmail.com>> wrote:

So the integration with Softimag

Re: polygon island attributes

[Alan Fregtman]

You may wanna try Guillaume's "Polygon Islands Transformation" ICE addon:
http://frenchdog.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/polygon-islands-transformation-using-ice/

Once you have your islands as particles, then it's quite trivial to
offset them with noise and such.

There may be smarter ways to do what you're after, however. I'm just
throwing out what came to mind first.
Hope it helps.
Cheers,

  -- Alan


On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Simon van de Lagemaat
 wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> A while ago I asked how to assign random attributes to polygon islands and
> I've recently revisited that task and used a couple of methods using the get
> array minimum technique.
>
> Currently I'm just assigning purely random values using a random value node
> which has my custom poly island indices plugged into it.  What I'd like to
> do is find a way to drive each islands value via a worley noise or turbulise
> node so I can get a more patterned, less random change to the values from
> island to island.  The issue is finding a way to sample the noise at one
> point for each island and I'm not sure how to go about that.
>
> If you have any ideas or could point me to something I'd love to hear from
> you.
>
> Cheers.

Re: polygon island attributes

[Ciaran Moloney]

Dive inside the turbulence compound and replace any instances of
pointposition with polygonposition. Also, swap polygonindex for point ID.


On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Simon van de Lagemaat <
si...@theembassyvfx.com> wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> A while ago I asked how to assign random attributes to polygon islands and
> I've recently revisited that task and used a couple of methods using the
> get array minimum technique.
>
> Currently I'm just assigning purely random values using a random value
> node which has my custom poly island indices plugged into it.  What I'd
> like to do is find a way to drive each islands value via a worley noise or
> turbulise node so I can get a more patterned, less random change to the
> values from island to island.  The issue is finding a way to sample the
> noise at one point for each island and I'm not sure how to go about that.
>
> If you have any ideas or could point me to something I'd love to hear from
> you.
>
> Cheers.
>

Re: polygon island attributes

[Alan Fregtman]

Hi Ciaran,

That would work for polygons individually, but Simon seems to be
asking about polygon islands (so multiple polys per island.) That's
quite tricky to get via ICE alone without scripted help.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Ciaran Moloney
 wrote:
> Dive inside the turbulence compound and replace any instances of
> pointposition with polygonposition. Also, swap polygonindex for point ID.
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Simon van de Lagemaat
>  wrote:
>>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> A while ago I asked how to assign random attributes to polygon islands and
>> I've recently revisited that task and used a couple of methods using the get
>> array minimum technique.
>>
>> Currently I'm just assigning purely random values using a random value
>> node which has my custom poly island indices plugged into it.  What I'd like
>> to do is find a way to drive each islands value via a worley noise or
>> turbulise node so I can get a more patterned, less random change to the
>> values from island to island.  The issue is finding a way to sample the
>> noise at one point for each island and I'm not sure how to go about that.
>>
>> If you have any ideas or could point me to something I'd love to hear from
>> you.
>>
>> Cheers.
>
>

Re: polygon island attributes

[Simon van de Lagemaat]

Ya I'm looking for a poly island solution which I had kind of thought
wouldn't be straight forward.  I'm pretty slow when it comes to putting
around ICE but I've been thinking of some hacky conceptual methods of doing
it.

1.  creating a particle at the center of every island, getting that
particle to sample a turbulence noise and then passing that value to the
island.

2. mapping only one point on the island then passing that value to the
other island points.

I'm sure there are better ways to do it but those are what my artist brain
came up with so far.  I'm not sure about what would require scripting and
what wouldn't

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Alan Fregtman wrote:

> Hi Ciaran,
>
> That would work for polygons individually, but Simon seems to be
> asking about polygon islands (so multiple polys per island.) That's
> quite tricky to get via ICE alone without scripted help.
>
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Ciaran Moloney
>  wrote:
> > Dive inside the turbulence compound and replace any instances of
> > pointposition with polygonposition. Also, swap polygonindex for point ID.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Simon van de Lagemaat
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> A while ago I asked how to assign random attributes to polygon islands
> and
> >> I've recently revisited that task and used a couple of methods using
> the get
> >> array minimum technique.
> >>
> >> Currently I'm just assigning purely random values using a random value
> >> node which has my custom poly island indices plugged into it.  What I'd
> like
> >> to do is find a way to drive each islands value via a worley noise or
> >> turbulise node so I can get a more patterned, less random change to the
> >> values from island to island.  The issue is finding a way to sample the
> >> noise at one point for each island and I'm not sure how to go about
> that.
> >>
> >> If you have any ideas or could point me to something I'd love to hear
> from
> >> you.
> >>
> >> Cheers.
> >
> >
>

Re: polygon island attributes

[phil harbath]

topolizer has this functionality and much more for those of us who like things 
gift wrapped.

From: Simon van de Lagemaat 
Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2012 11:57 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com 
Subject: Re: polygon island attributes

Ya I'm looking for a poly island solution which I had kind of thought wouldn't 
be straight forward.  I'm pretty slow when it comes to putting around ICE but 
I've been thinking of some hacky conceptual methods of doing it. 

1.  creating a particle at the center of every island, getting that particle to 
sample a turbulence noise and then passing that value to the island.

2. mapping only one point on the island then passing that value to the other 
island points.

I'm sure there are better ways to do it but those are what my artist brain came 
up with so far.  I'm not sure about what would require scripting and what 
wouldn't

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Alan Fregtman  wrote:

  Hi Ciaran,

  That would work for polygons individually, but Simon seems to be
  asking about polygon islands (so multiple polys per island.) That's
  quite tricky to get via ICE alone without scripted help.


  On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Ciaran Moloney
   wrote:
  > Dive inside the turbulence compound and replace any instances of
  > pointposition with polygonposition. Also, swap polygonindex for point ID.
  >
  >
  > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Simon van de Lagemaat
  >  wrote:
  >>
  >> Hey all,
  >>
  >> A while ago I asked how to assign random attributes to polygon islands and
  >> I've recently revisited that task and used a couple of methods using the 
get
  >> array minimum technique.
  >>
  >> Currently I'm just assigning purely random values using a random value
  >> node which has my custom poly island indices plugged into it.  What I'd 
like
  >> to do is find a way to drive each islands value via a worley noise or
  >> turbulise node so I can get a more patterned, less random change to the
  >> values from island to island.  The issue is finding a way to sample the
  >> noise at one point for each island and I'm not sure how to go about that.
  >>
  >> If you have any ideas or could point me to something I'd love to hear from
  >> you.
  >>
  >> Cheers.
  >
  >

Re: polygon island attributes

[Simon van de Lagemaat]

I love anything with a bow on it... plus supporting Eric is always a good
thing and topolizer has a TON of other cool stuff in it, even those cleanup
tools are awesome.  I did notice that emtools also has some poly island
tools.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 9:01 PM, phil harbath
wrote:

>   topolizer has this functionality and much more for those of us who like
> things gift wrapped.
>
>  *From:* Simon van de Lagemaat 
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 10, 2012 11:57 PM
> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> *Subject:* Re: polygon island attributes
>
> Ya I'm looking for a poly island solution which I had kind of thought
> wouldn't be straight forward.  I'm pretty slow when it comes to putting
> around ICE but I've been thinking of some hacky conceptual methods of doing
> it.
>
> 1.  creating a particle at the center of every island, getting that
> particle to sample a turbulence noise and then passing that value to the
> island.
>
> 2. mapping only one point on the island then passing that value to the
> other island points.
>
> I'm sure there are better ways to do it but those are what my artist brain
> came up with so far.  I'm not sure about what would require scripting and
> what wouldn't
>
> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:39 PM, Alan Fregtman wrote:
>
>> Hi Ciaran,
>>
>> That would work for polygons individually, but Simon seems to be
>> asking about polygon islands (so multiple polys per island.) That's
>> quite tricky to get via ICE alone without scripted help.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Ciaran Moloney
>>  wrote:
>> > Dive inside the turbulence compound and replace any instances of
>> > pointposition with polygonposition. Also, swap polygonindex for point
>> ID.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Simon van de Lagemaat
>> >  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hey all,
>> >>
>> >> A while ago I asked how to assign random attributes to polygon islands
>> and
>> >> I've recently revisited that task and used a couple of methods using
>> the get
>> >> array minimum technique.
>> >>
>> >> Currently I'm just assigning purely random values using a random value
>> >> node which has my custom poly island indices plugged into it.  What
>> I'd like
>> >> to do is find a way to drive each islands value via a worley noise or
>> >> turbulise node so I can get a more patterned, less random change to the
>> >> values from island to island.  The issue is finding a way to sample the
>> >> noise at one point for each island and I'm not sure how to go about
>> that.
>> >>
>> >> If you have any ideas or could point me to something I'd love to hear
>> from
>> >> you.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>