Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Matt Lind]

> On this I believe you are way too close to Softimage because it is not 
> trivial either to follow a complex scene,
> or a character? not saying it is not easier (it is) but it is not trivial 
> either.

I disagree.  A graph can be traversed and relevant nodes displayed in a 
view.  Softimage, Maya, Max, are all node graphs under the hood, but the 
data views such as the schematic merely display subsets of the nodes which 
contain certain characteristics (parent/child relationship).  Houdini has 
parent/child relationships too, but there isn't a convenient place where 
they are displayed in isolation of other properties of the scene.  Tools 
could be written to traverse and display only the nodes which define a 
parent/child relationship.  This is, in my opinion, a low hanging fruit that 
could be addressed.


>> As for networks and subnetworks. Great, you have a system. Most people do 
>> not,
>> or if they do, it will not be the same system as yours. THAT is the 
>> point.
>
>
> Same as with Passes, Partitions, Groups, Overrides and Layers in 
> Softimage?
> we build a consensus on how to use it (everything on the BG partition 
> hidden
> for example) and even tools to move things to the right partitions based 
> on
> one acting as template, etc..

Not quite the same thing.

With passes, partitions, groups, etc.. Softimage defines the structure and 
users merely label the parts in some way that is intuitive to them. 
Partitions can only appear inside of passes, overrides always appear 
immediately below the partition or object which it overrides, and so forth.

In Houdini, the networks are much more arbitrary.  The user does more than 
label things.  They also define structure of the assets.  The user can 
impose self restraint and stick to a naming scheme, template for arranging 
elements in the network view, etc.., but there is no consistent structure 
which all users will see uniformly imposed by Houdini in the manner you see 
with Softimage.  This can be disorienting to the non-technical user as the 
data and presentation can be radically different.



> It is strange because it is precisely the very sophisticated HDAs system 
> that allows
> Houdini to scale teams massively while keeping complexity under control.
>
> A good example;

You're comparing apples to oranges here.  The point is to get an intuitive 
understanding of the data you're working with.  You're talking about 
something completely different.


Matt








Message: 1 Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 10:16:35 +0100
From: Jordi Bares 
Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.


On 14 May 2018, at 00:01, Matt Lind  wrote: you're 
dissecting things at a more granular level than is intended, and as a result 
you're losing sight of the overall discussion.

a new user coming into Houdini doesn't have that historical background, nor 
does he/she care. He only sees a lot of special case tools that require 
inside knowledge to understand and use. That is the immediate point of 
frustration that isn't resolved well with documentation, and in many cases, 
not even discussed at all. This is one deterrent from adopting Houdini from 
the generalist's perspective.



You are right this could bring a lot of entry level comfort and easier 
transition. May comment it with the guys at SideFX.



Houdini doesn't have good tools for dealing with the macro view of a scene 
for the generalist. When you open a scene you're not familiar with, or one 
you haven't opened in a very long time, you want to get a general overview 
of it's structure in a few seconds. That is the purpose of mentioning the 
schematic view as it provides that overview at a glance. Does it tell you 
everything? No, of course not, but it doesn't have to either. It does tell 
you the links between nodes such as who is constrained to whom, where the 
envelopes reside, which nodes have shapes/lattices/etc. and very importantly 
? hierarchical relationships to understand how rigs are put together. Again, 
we're talking about the big picture. Explorer??? that?s for micro-level work 
when you want the dirty details on an object.



On this I believe you are way too close to Softimage because it is not 
trivial either to follow a complex scene, or a character? not saying it is 
not easier (it is) but it is not trivial either.



It's not good for the broader picture as you have to spending a lot of time 
clicking on nested node after node until you find what you're looking for, 
and even then there's often a lot more information displayed than you need 
leading to excessive noise. That's exactly the same problem with ICE 
compounds as digging into nested compound after nested compound you begin to 
lose sight over the bigger picture you're trying to grasp. This isn't a 
discussion about which is more powerful, it's about presenting information 
that is better suited for high level working for the non-technical user.



Indeed this is a byproduct of a node appro

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Andy Chlupka (Goehler)]

> On May 14, 2018, at 1:06 PM,   wrote:
> 
> I’ve only had a few weeks of Houdini, but I really want to learn it,  I do 
> however, think it needs some consolidating. I found it very hard to figure 
> stuff out here on my own. I’m trying to do deformation work with it, and I 
> found it hard to find advice from people doing that.

Hey Paul, have you checked into the Houdini discord server? There’re quite a 
few very helpful people there.
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__discordapp.com_invite_b8U5Hdy&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=9Z3zUtwUDC-k99YXocS91qSdtudg0-eMNM3T_fLAiwE&s=7P1S6xs2Kea1S8sUZQwJ9CwymBhiZaeSIGqJrKwz6sM&e=
 

> The kind of things that made me throw my toys out of the pram were having 
> different legacy ways of writing Expressions ( or was it accessing 
> attributes.. something like that, involving sometimes a dollar sign and 
> sometimes not) When I tried applying techniques I’d learnt from tutorials to 
> my own rudimentary tools, they just did not work. I asked on forums and got 
> back ‘try all the methods and see which one works’ and ‘You just have to 
> learn approach works where’
> They need to pick ONE way of doing things, and rewrite any old tools that use 
> the old method and keep them as legacy for a few versions until they die out. 
> Its hard enough trying to learn something new, without inconsistencies and 
> gotchas. 

Yes, you’re spot on old tutorials are neck breaking at this point. But 
consolidation is exactly what they are in the process of. They rid the $VARs 
and use @attribute syntax for everything. They are however overwhelmed by the 
mass of nodes.

> One thing I love about XSI is that it IS SO clear and consistent. 
> When I first purchased XSI I watched a 3 hour video on rigging. The 
> repetition of the same type of clear approach across the board, meant that, 
> by the end of watching that video, Not only did I feel like I knew exactly 
> what to do, I was spotting some inefficiencies in the (author of the) 
> tutorials approach. That same day, I could make a useful rig myself and I 
> never struggled to understand things, because of the highly consistent 
> approach from one panel to the next in XSI. Also when thinking ‘I wonder if I 
> can right click on that and do what I want’ or ‘Drag and drop’ that. The 
> answer was usually yes. You could smell the genius behind the design of it, 
> like it knew better than you, how to make life straightforward.

Yeah, it’s not going to be a smooth ride like that, I’m afraid.

Cheers,

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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Olivier Jeannel]

Fossilization, fossilisation everywhere !
Joke asside, this list rocks, each time someone is lost in a migrating
software this place is still one of the best place to ask.

2018-05-14 19:41 GMT+02:00 Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II] <
j.ponthi...@nasa.gov>:

> Speaking of jurassic, I was on Cubicomp for 5 years when the dinosaurs
> arrived in 93.
>
>
>
> Hard to believe its been 22 years that I’ve been on this list. Still using
> SI occasionally but less and less these days.
>
>
>
> What a blast to see all these names today! Glad to know you all are still
> out there.
>
>
>
> Joey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
> listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Marc-Andre Carbonneau
> *Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2018 10:40 AM
> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=Y_jjQF4kf1orVdW5r0Y8wHGnkccALt2uvutbK-xPbRc&s=duG564lnFG8wilj0y1gDwB_FMm4rNsPJxxJDQiQoXPo&e=
> forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
> *Subject:* RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?
>
>
>
> Hi jurassic community!
>
> I’m still here but haven’t dabbled in Softimage since 2010. I’m managing
> artists nowadays and they use ZBrush, Max and Maya…
>
> A lot of environment artists use Houdini 
> (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twvideo01.ubm-2Dus.net_&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=Y_jjQF4kf1orVdW5r0Y8wHGnkccALt2uvutbK-xPbRc&s=a5QHbLj-H1XEF-cuQcuHM6N3Bak_5Cdge6I8ySxguec&e=
> o1/vault/gdc2018/presentations/ProceduralWorldGeneration.pdf
> 
> ).
>
> VFX artists still mostly use Max but the senior ones are seriously
> learning and adding Houdini to their toolbox.
>
>
>
> I’ve been on this list since 1997 when I started studying 3D at the NAD
> Center… Although the list isn’t what it was, I still like to read you guys
> and I don’t plan on leaving until they shut it down…
>
>
>
> MAC
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com <
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com> *On Behalf Of *Ed Harriss
> *Sent:* May 14, 2018 9:50 AM
> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=Y_jjQF4kf1orVdW5r0Y8wHGnkccALt2uvutbK-xPbRc&s=duG564lnFG8wilj0y1gDwB_FMm4rNsPJxxJDQiQoXPo&e=
> forum/#!forum/xsi_list
> 

RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

Speaking of jurassic, I was on Cubicomp for 5 years when the dinosaurs arrived 
in 93.

Hard to believe its been 22 years that I’ve been on this list. Still using SI 
occasionally but less and less these days.

What a blast to see all these names today! Glad to know you all are still out 
there.

Joey



From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Marc-Andre 
Carbonneau
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 10:40 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=zHzkBTntCBQsiQZIify1qaPfJvnbmxk4n_igOuLpf_o&s=WVUvHbioWilFnyIG48z3ZxiF4KUEFKjkn1FePL7_z1w&e=
 
Subject: RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

Hi jurassic community!
I’m still here but haven’t dabbled in Softimage since 2010. I’m managing 
artists nowadays and they use ZBrush, Max and Maya…
A lot of environment artists use Houdini 
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twvideo01.ubm-2Dus.net_o1_vault_gdc2018_presentations_ProceduralWorldGeneration.pdf&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=zHzkBTntCBQsiQZIify1qaPfJvnbmxk4n_igOuLpf_o&s=eJ02SP0JqfTYYTUmisF-as_qZg3hUYqrvqcBm5YwKwo&e=
 ).
VFX artists still mostly use Max but the senior ones are seriously learning and 
adding Houdini to their toolbox.

I’ve been on this list since 1997 when I started studying 3D at the NAD Center… 
Although the list isn’t what it was, I still like to read you guys and I don’t 
plan on leaving until they shut it down…

MAC


From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
 
mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>>
 On Behalf Of Ed Harriss
Sent: May 14, 2018 9:50 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=zHzkBTntCBQsiQZIify1qaPfJvnbmxk4n_igOuLpf_o&s=WVUvHbioWilFnyIG48z3ZxiF4KUEFKjkn1FePL7_z1w&e=
 mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>>
Subject: RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

I’m still here.
Don’t use XSI much anymore though…

I’m not dead!
I don’t want to go on the cart!
-Ed


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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[phil harbath]

I am still using Softimage exclusively, I am wondering if anyone would care to 
briefly describe the advantage and disadvantages of using Maya for character 
animation. I am hoping there are some advantages.
thanks
Phil--
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RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Marc Brinkley]

Still reading every now and then. Career changes lead me away from getting 
hands on software these days. Unless you count Excel as vital software for 
visual development.

Only feels like yesterday when Kim scolded me on the brand new XSI mailing 
list. And even prior on the old Softimage 3D mailing list too.

I do miss slapping on a pair of headphones and just modeling all day.



From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
 On Behalf Of Anthony Rossano
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 8:42 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=tudPQYbmC_Ysbs9uLepxC5y9dnET9T27T3Hr4RpAAWs&s=dagDckVGdLRi6lkqp7xdRB_pjE7JWBJQuHPRORwDRtc&e=
 
Subject: Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

I still watch the thread once in a while.  We had some good times virtually and 
a lot of us had good times in person.  Working at Omation in San Clemente was a 
blast!
- anthor

On May 12, 2018, at 9:00 AM, Alan Fregtman 
mailto:alan.fregt...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I read less and less but like Francois, I lurk over the subject lines from time 
to time. :)

How's everyone doing? I for one stopped rigging in Softimage and decided to 
focus full-time on Python pipeline work where I jump around in Maya, Nuke and 
sometimes Houdini.

I still miss ICE dearly.

On Sat, May 12, 2018, 7:40 AM Andi Farhall 
mailto:hack...@outlook.com>> wrote:




I still lurk...

but then i still use soft every day 😊

A>

From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
 
mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>>
 on behalf of Francois Lord mailto:flordli...@gmail.com>>
Sent: 12 May 2018 01:52:59
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?


I must admit I lurk less and less. I look at the emails subjects from time to 
time. This one called me. ;)

On 2018-05-11 01:53 PM, Bill Hinkson wrote:
I still lurk.

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 1:05 PM, patrick nethercoat 
mailto:patr...@brandtanim.co.uk>> wrote:
My hands are not yet cold and dead.

On 11 May 2018 at 18:01, Sandy Sutherland 
mailto:sandy.mailli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Yep still around as one of them 'from before'

S.

On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe 
mailto:witha...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Just curious?

Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old SIGGRAPHs 
on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage mailing lists, 
for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official social media.

San Antonio still owes me a camera! -- Softimage Mailing List. To 
unsubscribe, send a mail to 
softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
 with “unsubscribe” in the subject, and reply to confirm.



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 with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.


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www.brandtanim.co.uk

Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Anthony Rossano]

I still watch the thread once in a while.  We had some good times virtually and 
a lot of us had good times in person.  Working at Omation in San Clemente was a 
blast!

- anthor

> On May 12, 2018, at 9:00 AM, Alan Fregtman  wrote:
> 
> I read less and less but like Francois, I lurk over the subject lines from 
> time to time. :)
> 
> How's everyone doing? I for one stopped rigging in Softimage and decided to 
> focus full-time on Python pipeline work where I jump around in Maya, Nuke and 
> sometimes Houdini.
> 
> I still miss ICE dearly.
> 
> 
>> On Sat, May 12, 2018, 7:40 AM Andi Farhall  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I still lurk...
>> 
>> but then i still use soft every day 😊
>> 
>> A>
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>>  on behalf of Francois Lord 
>> 
>> Sent: 12 May 2018 01:52:59
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?
>>  
>> I must admit I lurk less and less. I look at the emails subjects from time 
>> to time. This one called me. ;)
>> 
>>> On 2018-05-11 01:53 PM, Bill Hinkson wrote:
>>> I still lurk.
>>> 
>>> On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 1:05 PM, patrick nethercoat 
>>>  wrote:
>>> My hands are not yet cold and dead.
>>> 
>>> On 11 May 2018 at 18:01, Sandy Sutherland  wrote:
>>> Yep still around as one of them 'from before'
>>> 
>>> S.
>>> 
>>> On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe  wrote:
>>> Just curious?
>>> 
>>> Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old 
>>> SIGGRAPHs on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage 
>>> mailing lists, for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official 
>>> social media.
>>> 
>>> San Antonio still owes me a camera! -- Softimage Mailing List. To 
>>> unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
>>> “unsubscribe” in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
>>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Brandt Animation
>>> www.brandtanim.co.uk
>>> 020 7734 0196
>>> 07717 38 39 40
>>>  
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
>>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> bill hinkson
>>> animator & designer
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__billhinksondesign.com&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=Ed93ec7b__HZaxgSwInPPBe-mL_3UlcBW7G08SbX72s&s=crp1NGrbme4eI3_rhisSvXdmWhWGQKLMOAvFR7YETrc&e=
>>>  
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
>>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> 
> --
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RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Marc-Andre Carbonneau]

Hi jurassic community!
I’m still here but haven’t dabbled in Softimage since 2010. I’m managing 
artists nowadays and they use ZBrush, Max and Maya…
A lot of environment artists use Houdini 
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twvideo01.ubm-2Dus.net_o1_vault_gdc2018_presentations_ProceduralWorldGeneration.pdf&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=4YKzIcIeeoK4LP5LJRDHrW5Ko--Eq6Rad8Eb0IgXhDA&s=g3KMEYTSDt7qAzobqRIEYiFBUy2T6lUksZi9aKFVI28&e=
 ).
VFX artists still mostly use Max but the senior ones are seriously learning and 
adding Houdini to their toolbox.

I’ve been on this list since 1997 when I started studying 3D at the NAD Center… 
Although the list isn’t what it was, I still like to read you guys and I don’t 
plan on leaving until they shut it down…

MAC


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
 On Behalf Of Ed Harriss
Sent: May 14, 2018 9:50 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=4YKzIcIeeoK4LP5LJRDHrW5Ko--Eq6Rad8Eb0IgXhDA&s=qqZmZyxaBqVCTbapsjI7UoXCyztL2sIvNcK2dDENItA&e=
 
Subject: RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

I’m still here.
Don’t use XSI much anymore though…

I’m not dead!
I don’t want to go on the cart!
-Ed

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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[wavo]

Still searching for a female Dinosaur!
Apart from that ,still not hit by a meteor and working satiesfied with XSI.

Walt

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*FIFTYEIGHT*3D
Animation & Digital Effects GmbH

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60314 Frankfurt am Main
Germany

Telefon +49 (0) 69.48 000 55.50
Telefax +49 (0) 69.48 000 55.15

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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

You only have to store new poses and the operation of bone influence 
subtraction seems to me easy given you can look at any part of the network.

Am I missing something?
jb


> On 14 May 2018, at 12:48, Andy Chlupka (Goehler) 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I believe the Edit SOP can create deltas, it should be in the manual. And 
> store shapes as point attributes as you like. Same goes for the rest P 
> attribute.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> On Mon 14. May 2018 at 11:35,  > wrote:
> In soft, you can make a shape in Secondary shape mode and have it reverse the 
> skinning and save the shape, and in Maya, the new Shape manager allows the 
> easy creation of corrective shapes in context of others.
>  
> How are blendshapes stored in Houdini? Are they always procedurally generated 
> from other meshes, or can the delta be saved somehow as an attribute.
>  
>  
> From: Jordi Bares 
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 10:19 AM
> To: Paul Smith  ; Official Softimage Users Mailing 
> List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=zBNU051U7hQeAxGXVSDjeKzUJJ099MooBwk2jJiRJVI&s=_R7WHD4IFCzYD8Fy7Sh-IpdwIw7b_ow02Xe3jGPEnHo&e=
>  
> Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?
>  
>  
>> On 14 May 2018, at 09:59, mailto:p...@bustykelp.com>> 
>> mailto:p...@bustykelp.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Anyway.  What I’m talking about is a tool that helps with the creation of 
>> shapes that are , for example in context of the current pose of the skinned 
>> mesh. Or making a shape that is a corrective, in context of 2 or more other 
>> shapes that are applied, and that kind of thing.
>> All this is doable without a shape manager of course, but it takes longer, 
>> and can become tedious when you have to keep doing it. Its very nice to have 
>> a tool to make this happen in a no-brainer way and not have workarounds that 
>> undermine and stall the flow of enthusiasm.
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong but this is not a standard thing in any package 
> actually… I wish it was though.
> jb
> 
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RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Ed Harriss]

I’m still here.
Don’t use XSI much anymore though…

I’m not dead!
I don’t want to go on the cart!
-Ed


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Rui Santos
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 9:20 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=j61CVKC8eceFD7Gblo8YZZuExqKop1QWVL5JaAaUyVk&s=aUE26AxcB6mUUIJG6EEZ988zFW71RfVQUj6mNdttNgs&e=
 
Subject: Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?
Yeah...another one over herei already was a dinossaur when xsi was 
released...hehehe...man!...been working with softimage since 1995...

2018-05-14 13:36 GMT+01:00 Tim Borgmann mailto:i...@bt-3d.de>>:

I'm still here and actually following the 'Houdini: non vfx jobs?' very 
interested. I added Houdini 2 and a half years ago to my daily weapons but 
still use SI on some projects. Some tasks are simply so much faster and easier 
to do in SI. It always depends on the project.

Cheers

Tim


still here, cold dead hands and all that

i'll be the one to lock the door on the way out of this list and hang the 
closed sign on the outside of it

#sigh

a

Adrian Wyer
Fluid Pictures
4th Floor
4 Bath Place
Rivington Street
London
EC2A 3DR
++44(0) 207 684 5575

adrian.w...@fluid-pictures.com
www.fluid-pictures.com

Fluid Pictures Limited is registered in England and Wales.
Company number:5657815
VAT number: 872 6893 71

From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
 [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Laurence Dodd
Sent: 14 May 2018 09:29
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing 
List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIGaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=j61CVKC8eceFD7Gblo8YZZuExqKop1QWVL5JaAaUyVk&s=aUE26AxcB6mUUIJG6EEZ988zFW71RfVQUj6mNdttNgs&e=
Subject: Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

Still here,
Using Soft a bit less all of a sudden, but if I need to do something fast 
always.

laurence

On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe 
mailto:witha...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Just curious?

Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old SIGGRAPHs 
on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage mailing lists, 
for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official social media.

San Antonio still owes me a camera! -- Softimage Mailing List. To 
unsubscribe, send a mail to 
softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
 with “unsubscribe” in the subject, and reply to confirm.




--

Laurence Dodd
Porkpie Animation
E: laure...@porkpie.tv
W: 
www.porkpie.tv

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Anto Matkovic]

Pooby,
is there something specific you want to know.By my calculations, consolidation 
is going to happen between 2025 and 2007 (2007 because sometimes it's going 
backward :) ), we are somewhere in middle...From my small experience, VEX is a 
way to go, node or code whatever you like. So for rule of thumb, your way to 
build a push deformer is something with P and N inside Attribute VOP, before 
fighting with dollars an monkeys in Peak SOP - that is, rule of thumb. System 
is very well maintained, also, what loads H13 scene into H16  with zero 
problems, are exactly custom Attribute VOPs. There are few features not 
possible in ICE, probably interesting for building the deformations, like 
ability to filter closest distance query by polygon group, or ray-casting 
through multiple targets, ability to create groups (cluster in SI) directly in 
Attribute VOP, so on. While entire system is a bit stiff compared to ICE, for 
my taste.


  From: "p...@bustykelp.com" 
 To: Official Softimage Users Mailing 
List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=HwzDV6riYb8HOqcHAXR-9fVyhTIOfV7dB0SEwXLDPiA&s=XEHpLd2AqI7xgWIpzPzl3-sH_4paHvHtHRJua1Z_Ljg&e=
  
 Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 1:06 PM
 Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?
   
 I’ve only had a few weeks of Houdini, but I really want to learn it,  I do 
however, think it needs some consolidating. I found it very hard to figure 
stuff out here on my own. I’m trying to do deformation work with it, and I 
found it hard to find advice from people doing that.
 
   #yiv0429567471 a:link {color:#000;text-decoration:none;}#yiv0429567471 
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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Rui Santos]

Yeah...another one over herei already was a dinossaur when xsi was
released...hehehe...man!...been working with softimage since 1995...

2018-05-14 13:36 GMT+01:00 Tim Borgmann :

> I'm still here and actually following the 'Houdini: non vfx jobs?' very
> interested. I added Houdini 2 and a half years ago to my daily weapons but
> still use SI on some projects. Some tasks are simply so much faster and
> easier to do in SI. It always depends on the project.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> still here, cold dead hands and all that
>
>
>
> i'll be the one to lock the door on the way out of this list and hang
> the closed sign on the outside of it
>
>
>
> #sigh
>
>
>
> a
>
>
>
> Adrian Wyer
> Fluid Pictures
> 4th Floor
> 4 Bath Place
> Rivington Street
> London
> EC2A 3DR
> ++44(0) 207 684 5575
>
>
> adrian.w...@fluid-pictures.com
>
> www.fluid-pictures.com
>
>
>
> Fluid Pictures Limited is registered in England and Wales.
> Company number:5657815
> VAT number: 872 6893 71
> --
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
> listproc.autodesk.com ] *On
> Behalf Of *Laurence Dodd
> *Sent:* 14 May 2018 09:29
> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing 
> List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=rc1FY2SUoNFAwVXTV6I5_idX3QTCNPDrp-C1BF0bu4g&s=QhyJLoEU53hayW1VptC4-cO0V5-Baus7fX-ryXcymws&e=.
> com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list
> *Subject:* Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?
>
>
>
> Still here,
>
> Using Soft a bit less all of a sudden, but if I need to do something fast
> always.
>
>
>
> laurence
>
>
>
> On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe  wrote:
>
> Just curious?
>
> Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old
> SIGGRAPHs on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage
> mailing lists, for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official
> social media.
>
> San Antonio still owes me a camera! -- Softimage Mailing List. To
> unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
> “unsubscribe” in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Laurence Dodd*
> *Porkpie Animation*
>
> E: laure...@porkpie.tv
> W: www.porkpie.tv
> 
> M: 07570 702

Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Morten Bartholdy]

Now who would you be calling dinosaurs, Brad? ;-)

Morten Bartholdy



> Den 11. maj 2018 klokken 18:23 skrev Bradley Gabe :
> 
> 
> Just curious? 
> 
> Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old SIGGRAPHs 
> on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage mailing 
> lists, for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official social 
> media. 
> 
> San Antonio still owes me a camera! 
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Tim Borgmann]

I'm still here and actually following the 'Houdini: non vfx jobs?' very 
interested. I added Houdini 2 and a half years ago to my daily weapons 
but still use SI on some projects. Some tasks are simply so much faster 
and easier to do in SI. It always depends on the project.


Cheers

Tim



still here, cold dead hands and all that

i'll be the one to lock the door on the way out of this list and 
hang the closed sign on the outside of it


#sigh

a

Adrian Wyer
Fluid Pictures
4th Floor
4 Bath Place
Rivington Street
London
EC2A 3DR
++44(0) 207 684 5575


adrian.w...@fluid-pictures.com 

www.fluid-pictures.com 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.fluid-2Dpictures.com_&d=DwIF-g&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=4fvzIHMWEE7c3EY7bisMVu-zdEN_STfGFYU7T47WIb4&s=IVTDMUWTE0BLXH0HagjZK4-6IrydkWMFgFsM9FD7Y6o&e=>


Fluid Pictures Limited is registered in England and Wales.
Company number:5657815
VAT number: 872 6893 71



*From:*softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of 
*Laurence Dodd

*Sent:* 14 May 2018 09:29
*To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing 
List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIF-g&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=4fvzIHMWEE7c3EY7bisMVu-zdEN_STfGFYU7T47WIb4&s=cbz5M4Pl0l0domuwl14evQ-6ZQiGE24066-gcxMof10&e=

*Subject:* Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

Still here,

Using Soft a bit less all of a sudden, but if I need to do something 
fast always.


laurence

On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe > wrote:


Just curious?

Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old 
SIGGRAPHs on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the 
Softimage mailing lists, for me at least, were my Facebook before 
there was official social media.


San Antonio still owes me a camera! -- Softimage Mailing List. To 
unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com 
 with “unsubscribe” in 
the subject, and reply to confirm.




--

*Laurence Dodd*
*Porkpie Animation*

E: laure...@porkpie.tv 
W: www.porkpie.tv 


M: 07570 702 576
T: 01273 278 382



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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Alastair Hearsum]

Yes he has but mainly on the technology front, definitely not on the 
interaction with the software front.


On 14/05/2018 12:53, Andy Chlupka (Goehler) wrote:

I hope this isn't trolling, as I find it a very informative discussion.

But I wonder, if this hair pulling has an opposite to it? Has he not 
experienced anything that he liked?


Andy


On Mon 14. May 2018 at 11:32, Alastair Hearsum 
mailto:alast...@glassworks.co.uk>> wrote:


Is this trolling? I'm not sure. But I feel I have to keep shooting
this kind of thing down. Without naming names you know the guy
that created a very complex feather system in ICE here at
Glasswork, on the job. We have been using Houdini as you know for
a few years now, so with the combination of a technically minded
artist who operates at a high level exposed to Houdini for few
years who is still tearing his hair out in frustration points to
the issues with Houdini.
They need to seriously look at improving their user interaction.
Its not just about getting used to it.


On 12/05/2018 16:18, Jordi Bares wrote:

I would suggest to give it a proper go, if you have used ICE you
will see how easy it is.

jb




On 12 May 2018, at 10:48, Tom Kleinenberg mailto:zagan...@gmail.com>> wrote:

This is a really interesting discussion and covers thoughts from
all angles. There is an element to the discussion of technical
types telling the rest of us we just need to "git gud" which is
a bit disheartening though. (It's disheartening not because it's
patronising but because the only way to use Houdini is to master
it at fairly high technical level which will exclude a number of
people, myself included). I understand that there is a technical
learning curve to any piece of software but Houdini is a
different beast to the other big three (Max, Maya, eXSI). You
can drop a Maya artist in XSI and tell them to achieve a task
and they'll do it - maybe not the most efficient way, but a way
that works. I don't feel that's the same in Houdini. There's too
much "well, nobody really models in Houdini" or "you can, but
nobody really animates in Houdini". That's not necessarily bad,
Zbrush is probably the "best" software on the market in terms of
expectations to results but it's clear about it's narrow focus.

To put it in a personal way, I've worked to some level in 3DS
Max, Maya, Lightwave and XSI. I wouldn't consider myself
particularly artistically gifted or technically proficient but I
am good at understanding the needs of a non-technical person (eg
art-director), drawing up a list of requirements and achieving
them, getting support from concept artists are pipeline TD's if
needed. XSI was* the software that allowed me to go the furthest
independently (*was because I've had to move to Maya). I would
love to replace that and Houdini appears to be a good fit but
I'm not sure. Maybe the "uber-nodes" you're discussing are
anathematic to Houdini's overall workflow but would be
streamline the on-boarding process. XSI was excellent at getting
people into the software and then allowing you to get into the
more complex bits on your own; although ICE was the main weapon
in my arsenal, it's possible to work for years without ever
touching it.

On 12 May 2018 at 09:34, Jordi Baresmailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>>wrote:

@Matt, Exactly my thoughts (but clearly better explained)

I would certainly advocate to improve things in terms of
node functionality or assisting better in certain aspects
(blend shape manager, exporting bundles in and out, or
adding hierarchical overrides in takes, or adding certain
tools we use every single day, or bringing more “uber nodes”
to VOPs so we don’t have to be so granular) but always
without sacrificing proceduralism or breaking their core design.

Jb




On 11 May 2018, at 22:04, Matt Lind mailto:speye...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Given Houdini is a node based system, there is a simple
paradox at play that in order to get the level of
cohesiveness Softimage employed, tools need to share
information and work together. A node based system, by
design, requires each node to act independently. To get the
Softimage workflow in Houdini requires either monolithic
nodes with enough intelligence to cover all the bases of a
particular task, or the UI needs to take control and hide
the nodes behind the scenes slapping user's wrists if they
attempt to fiddle with the nodes involved. In either case,
it works against a node based system's mantra.

In short, I don't think it's possible for Houdini to ever
become another Softimage. You'll have to settle for
something that has great power but some degree of
cumbersome

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Andy Chlupka (Goehler)]

I hope this isn't trolling, as I find it a very informative discussion.

But I wonder, if this hair pulling has an opposite to it? Has he not
experienced anything that he liked?

Andy


On Mon 14. May 2018 at 11:32, Alastair Hearsum 
wrote:

> Is this trolling? I'm not sure. But I feel I have to keep shooting this
> kind of thing down. Without naming names you know the guy that created a
> very complex feather system in ICE here at Glasswork, on the job. We have
> been using Houdini as you know for a few years now, so with the combination
> of a technically minded artist who operates at a high level exposed to
> Houdini for few years who is still tearing his hair out in frustration
> points to the issues with Houdini.
> They need to seriously look at improving their user interaction. Its not
> just about getting used to it.
>
>
> On 12/05/2018 16:18, Jordi Bares wrote:
>
> I would suggest to give it a proper go, if you have used ICE you will see
> how easy it is.
>
> jb
>
>
>
> On 12 May 2018, at 10:48, Tom Kleinenberg  wrote:
>
> This is a really interesting discussion and covers thoughts from all
> angles. There is an element to the discussion of technical types telling
> the rest of us we just need to "git gud" which is a bit disheartening
> though. (It's disheartening not because it's patronising but because the
> only way to use Houdini is to master it at fairly high technical level
> which will exclude a number of people, myself included). I understand that
> there is a technical learning curve to any piece of software but Houdini is
> a different beast to the other big three (Max, Maya, eXSI). You can drop a
> Maya artist in XSI and tell them to achieve a task and they'll do it -
> maybe not the most efficient way, but a way that works. I don't feel that's
> the same in Houdini. There's too much "well, nobody really models in
> Houdini" or "you can, but nobody really animates in Houdini". That's not
> necessarily bad, Zbrush is probably the "best" software on the market in
> terms of expectations to results but it's clear about it's narrow focus.
>
> To put it in a personal way, I've worked to some level in 3DS Max, Maya,
> Lightwave and XSI. I wouldn't consider myself particularly artistically
> gifted or technically proficient but I am good at understanding the needs
> of a non-technical person (eg art-director), drawing up a list of
> requirements and achieving them, getting support from concept artists are
> pipeline TD's if needed. XSI was* the software that allowed me to go the
> furthest independently (*was because I've had to move to Maya). I would
> love to replace that and Houdini appears to be a good fit but I'm not sure.
> Maybe the "uber-nodes" you're discussing are anathematic to Houdini's
> overall workflow but would be streamline the on-boarding process. XSI was
> excellent at getting people into the software and then allowing you to get
> into the more complex bits on your own; although ICE was the main weapon in
> my arsenal, it's possible to work for years without ever touching it.
>
> On 12 May 2018 at 09:34, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>
>> @Matt, Exactly my thoughts (but clearly better explained)
>>
>> I would certainly advocate to improve things in terms of node
>> functionality or assisting better in certain aspects (blend shape manager,
>> exporting bundles in and out, or adding hierarchical overrides in takes, or
>> adding certain tools we use every single day, or bringing more “uber nodes”
>> to VOPs so we don’t have to be so granular) but always without sacrificing
>> proceduralism or breaking their core design.
>>
>> Jb
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11 May 2018, at 22:04, Matt Lind  wrote:
>>
>> Given Houdini is a node based system, there is a simple paradox at play
>> that in order to get the level of cohesiveness Softimage employed, tools
>> need to share information and work together. A node based system, by
>> design, requires each node to act independently. To get the Softimage
>> workflow in Houdini requires either monolithic nodes with enough
>> intelligence to cover all the bases of a particular task, or the UI needs
>> to take control and hide the nodes behind the scenes slapping user's wrists
>> if they attempt to fiddle with the nodes involved. In either case, it works
>> against a node based system's mantra.
>>
>> In short, I don't think it's possible for Houdini to ever become another
>> Softimage. You'll have to settle for something that has great power but
>> some degree of cumbersome workflow.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>> Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 18:44:10 +0100 From: Alastair Hearsum <
>> alast...@glassworks.co.uk> Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs? To:
>> softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>
>> I think there is real danger in pinning all this grumbling on lack of
>> familiarity and not acknowledging that there are some fundamental design
>> issues . The first step to recovery is to admit that there a problem. As
>> everyone knows there is some fantastic technology in there but it

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Andy Chlupka (Goehler)]

Hi Paul,

I believe the Edit SOP can create deltas, it should be in the manual. And
store shapes as point attributes as you like. Same goes for the rest P
attribute.

Cheers,

Andy

On Mon 14. May 2018 at 11:35,  wrote:

> In soft, you can make a shape in Secondary shape mode and have it reverse
> the skinning and save the shape, and in Maya, the new Shape manager allows
> the easy creation of corrective shapes in context of others.
>
> How are blendshapes stored in Houdini? Are they always procedurally
> generated from other meshes, or can the delta be saved somehow as an
> attribute.
>
>
> *From:* Jordi Bares 
> *Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2018 10:19 AM
> *To:* Paul Smith  ; Official Softimage Users Mailing
> List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=-h99jeUsw_seAT5zRRXB-_TzsXsfULcbxbl0JjeX-mc&s=x0UkxBWOmWdCVChSxeSXdL3TUaTSDdYhJpi0nfE3c54&e=
> 
> *Subject:* Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?
>
>
>
> On 14 May 2018, at 09:59,   wrote:
>
>
> Anyway.  What I’m talking about is a tool that helps with the creation of
> shapes that are , for example in context of the current pose of the skinned
> mesh. Or making a shape that is a corrective, in context of 2 or more other
> shapes that are applied, and that kind of thing.
> All this is doable without a shape manager of course, but it takes longer,
> and can become tedious when you have to keep doing it. Its very nice to
> have a tool to make this happen in a no-brainer way and not have
> workarounds that undermine and stall the flow of enthusiasm.
>
>
> Correct me if I am wrong but this is not a standard thing in any package
> actually… I wish it was though.
> jb
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

Misunderstood it, sorry

:-)

Well, it makes sense to carry on telling them so and showcase things that you 
like… they are very responsive and have changed countless UI things already

jb

> On 14 May 2018, at 10:41, Alastair Hearsum  wrote:
> 
> I didnt mean you were trolling I meant is what I am doing trolling? I'm 
> popping up and shooting everything down. 
> I'm just trying to get an aknowledgement that there is a huge gap to be 
> filled in the user experience of Houdini and its something they dont take 
> seriously enough
> 
> 
> On 14/05/2018 10:37, Jordi Bares wrote:
>> The opposite of trolling actually, I hope it is obvious I only mean to share 
>> my experiences and ideas on how to get the best possible Houdini ride.
>> 
>> But I won’t insist any more on the “try it” part…
>> jb
>> 
>> 
>>> On 14 May 2018, at 10:32, Alastair Hearsum >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is this trolling? I'm not sure. But I feel I have to keep shooting this 
>>> kind of thing down. Without naming names you know the guy that created a 
>>> very complex feather system in ICE here at Glasswork, on the job. We have 
>>> been using Houdini as you know for a few years now, so with the combination 
>>> of a technically minded artist who operates at a high level exposed to 
>>> Houdini for few years who is still tearing his hair out in frustration 
>>> points to the issues with Houdini.  
>>> They need to seriously look at improving their user interaction. Its not 
>>> just about getting used to it.
>>> 
>>> On 12/05/2018 16:18, Jordi Bares wrote:
 I would suggest to give it a proper go, if you have used ICE you will see 
 how easy it is.
 
 jb
 
 
 
> On 12 May 2018, at 10:48, Tom Kleinenberg  > wrote:
> 
> This is a really interesting discussion and covers thoughts from all 
> angles. There is an element to the discussion of technical types telling 
> the rest of us we just need to "git gud" which is a bit disheartening 
> though. (It's disheartening not because it's patronising but because the 
> only way to use Houdini is to master it at fairly high technical level 
> which will exclude a number of people, myself included). I understand 
> that there is a technical learning curve to any piece of software but 
> Houdini is a different beast to the other big three (Max, Maya, eXSI). 
> You can drop a Maya artist in XSI and tell them to achieve a task and 
> they'll do it - maybe not the most efficient way, but a way that works. I 
> don't feel that's the same in Houdini. There's too much "well, nobody 
> really models in Houdini" or "you can, but nobody really animates in 
> Houdini". That's not necessarily bad, Zbrush is probably the "best" 
> software on the market in terms of expectations to results but it's clear 
> about it's narrow focus.
> 
> To put it in a personal way, I've worked to some level in 3DS Max, Maya, 
> Lightwave and XSI. I wouldn't consider myself particularly artistically 
> gifted or technically proficient but I am good at understanding the needs 
> of a non-technical person (eg art-director), drawing up a list of 
> requirements and achieving them, getting support from concept artists are 
> pipeline TD's if needed. XSI was* the software that allowed me to go the 
> furthest independently (*was because I've had to move to Maya). I would 
> love to replace that and Houdini appears to be a good fit but I'm not 
> sure. Maybe the "uber-nodes" you're discussing are anathematic to 
> Houdini's overall workflow but would be streamline the on-boarding 
> process. XSI was excellent at getting people into the software and then 
> allowing you to get into the more complex bits on your own; although ICE 
> was the main weapon in my arsenal, it's possible to work for years 
> without ever touching it.
> 
> On 12 May 2018 at 09:34, Jordi Bares  > wrote:
> @Matt, Exactly my thoughts (but clearly better explained)
> 
> I would certainly advocate to improve things in terms of node 
> functionality or assisting better in certain aspects (blend shape 
> manager, exporting bundles in and out, or adding hierarchical overrides 
> in takes, or adding certain tools we use every single day, or bringing 
> more “uber nodes” to VOPs so we don’t have to be so granular) but always 
> without sacrificing proceduralism or breaking their core design.
> 
> Jb
> 
> 
> 
>> On 11 May 2018, at 22:04, Matt Lind > > wrote:
>> 
>> Given Houdini is a node based system, there is a simple paradox at play 
>> that in order to get the level of cohesiveness Softimage employed, tools 
>> need to share information and work together. A node based system, by 
>> design, requires each node to a

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Anto Matkovic]

Shape editor in Maya 2017 has a Bay Raitt style shape fixers. Some comments are 
here:https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.chrisevans3d.com_pub-5Fblog_adsk-2Dships-2Dposespacedeformer-2Dignores-2Dclavicle_Also&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=Oi1qugY6fZ6AJuzQ1pbLbZyc_wNFT9O-y4ZI4De--fE&s=ztfEQgefeDBGm2aZCURV0Zo409qpTRT7ES2LINxIN9Q&e=,
 Blender addon called Animation Nodes (kind of nodal control of everything in 
Blender, plus per-point deformations) technically allows to build dependent 
shape keys, so sooner or later, there will be some interface on top, I guess.

  

Anyway.  What I’m talking about is a tool that helps with the creation of 
shapes that are , for example in context of the current pose of the skinned 
mesh. Or making a shape that is a corrective, in context of 2 or more other 
shapes that are applied, and that kind of thing.All this is doable without a 
shape manager of course, but it takes longer, and can become tedious when you 
have to keep doing it. Its very nice to have a tool to make this happen in a 
no-brainer way and not have workarounds that undermine and stall the flow of 
enthusiasm.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is not a standard thing in any package 
actually… I wish it was though.jb--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
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   --
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To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Alastair Hearsum]

I didnt mean you were trolling I meant is what I am doing trolling? I'm 
popping up and shooting everything down.
I'm just trying to get an aknowledgement that there is a huge gap to be 
filled in the user experience of Houdini and its something they dont 
take seriously enough



On 14/05/2018 10:37, Jordi Bares wrote:
The opposite of trolling actually, I hope it is obvious I only mean to 
share my experiences and ideas on how to get the best possible Houdini 
ride.


But I won’t insist any more on the “try it” part…
jb


On 14 May 2018, at 10:32, Alastair Hearsum > wrote:


Is this trolling? I'm not sure. But I feel I have to keep shooting 
this kind of thing down. Without naming names you know the guy that 
created a very complex feather system in ICE here at Glasswork, on 
the job. We have been using Houdini as you know for a few years now, 
so with the combination of a technically minded artist who operates 
at a high level exposed to Houdini for few years who is still tearing 
his hair out in frustration points to the issues with Houdini.
They need to seriously look at improving their user interaction. Its 
not just about getting used to it.


On 12/05/2018 16:18, Jordi Bares wrote:
I would suggest to give it a proper go, if you have used ICE you 
will see how easy it is.


jb



On 12 May 2018, at 10:48, Tom Kleinenberg > wrote:


This is a really interesting discussion and covers thoughts from 
all angles. There is an element to the discussion of technical 
types telling the rest of us we just need to "git gud" which is a 
bit disheartening though. (It's disheartening not because it's 
patronising but because the only way to use Houdini is to master it 
at fairly high technical level which will exclude a number of 
people, myself included). I understand that there is a technical 
learning curve to any piece of software but Houdini is a different 
beast to the other big three (Max, Maya, eXSI). You can drop a Maya 
artist in XSI and tell them to achieve a task and they'll do it - 
maybe not the most efficient way, but a way that works. I don't 
feel that's the same in Houdini. There's too much "well, nobody 
really models in Houdini" or "you can, but nobody really animates 
in Houdini". That's not necessarily bad, Zbrush is probably the 
"best" software on the market in terms of expectations to results 
but it's clear about it's narrow focus.


To put it in a personal way, I've worked to some level in 3DS Max, 
Maya, Lightwave and XSI. I wouldn't consider myself particularly 
artistically gifted or technically proficient but I am good at 
understanding the needs of a non-technical person (eg 
art-director), drawing up a list of requirements and achieving 
them, getting support from concept artists are pipeline TD's if 
needed. XSI was* the software that allowed me to go the furthest 
independently (*was because I've had to move to Maya). I would love 
to replace that and Houdini appears to be a good fit but I'm not 
sure. Maybe the "uber-nodes" you're discussing are anathematic to 
Houdini's overall workflow but would be streamline the on-boarding 
process. XSI was excellent at getting people into the software and 
then allowing you to get into the more complex bits on your own; 
although ICE was the main weapon in my arsenal, it's possible to 
work for years without ever touching it.


On 12 May 2018 at 09:34, Jordi Bares>wrote:


@Matt, Exactly my thoughts (but clearly better explained)

I would certainly advocate to improve things in terms of node
functionality or assisting better in certain aspects (blend
shape manager, exporting bundles in and out, or adding
hierarchical overrides in takes, or adding certain tools we use
every single day, or bringing more “uber nodes” to VOPs so we
don’t have to be so granular) but always without sacrificing
proceduralism or breaking their core design.

Jb




On 11 May 2018, at 22:04, Matt Lind mailto:speye...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Given Houdini is a node based system, there is a simple
paradox at play that in order to get the level of cohesiveness
Softimage employed, tools need to share information and work
together. A node based system, by design, requires each node
to act independently. To get the Softimage workflow in Houdini
requires either monolithic nodes with enough intelligence to
cover all the bases of a particular task, or the UI needs to
take control and hide the nodes behind the scenes slapping
user's wrists if they attempt to fiddle with the nodes
involved. In either case, it works against a node based
system's mantra.

In short, I don't think it's possible for Houdini to ever
become another Softimage. You'll have to settle for something
that has great power but some degree of cumbersome workflow.

Matt

Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 18:44:10 +0100 Fro

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

The opposite of trolling actually, I hope it is obvious I only mean to share my 
experiences and ideas on how to get the best possible Houdini ride.

But I won’t insist any more on the “try it” part…
jb


> On 14 May 2018, at 10:32, Alastair Hearsum  wrote:
> 
> Is this trolling? I'm not sure. But I feel I have to keep shooting this kind 
> of thing down. Without naming names you know the guy that created a very 
> complex feather system in ICE here at Glasswork, on the job. We have been 
> using Houdini as you know for a few years now, so with the combination of a 
> technically minded artist who operates at a high level exposed to Houdini for 
> few years who is still tearing his hair out in frustration points to the 
> issues with Houdini.  
> They need to seriously look at improving their user interaction. Its not just 
> about getting used to it.
> 
> On 12/05/2018 16:18, Jordi Bares wrote:
>> I would suggest to give it a proper go, if you have used ICE you will see 
>> how easy it is.
>> 
>> jb
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 12 May 2018, at 10:48, Tom Kleinenberg >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is a really interesting discussion and covers thoughts from all 
>>> angles. There is an element to the discussion of technical types telling 
>>> the rest of us we just need to "git gud" which is a bit disheartening 
>>> though. (It's disheartening not because it's patronising but because the 
>>> only way to use Houdini is to master it at fairly high technical level 
>>> which will exclude a number of people, myself included). I understand that 
>>> there is a technical learning curve to any piece of software but Houdini is 
>>> a different beast to the other big three (Max, Maya, eXSI). You can drop a 
>>> Maya artist in XSI and tell them to achieve a task and they'll do it - 
>>> maybe not the most efficient way, but a way that works. I don't feel that's 
>>> the same in Houdini. There's too much "well, nobody really models in 
>>> Houdini" or "you can, but nobody really animates in Houdini". That's not 
>>> necessarily bad, Zbrush is probably the "best" software on the market in 
>>> terms of expectations to results but it's clear about it's narrow focus.
>>> 
>>> To put it in a personal way, I've worked to some level in 3DS Max, Maya, 
>>> Lightwave and XSI. I wouldn't consider myself particularly artistically 
>>> gifted or technically proficient but I am good at understanding the needs 
>>> of a non-technical person (eg art-director), drawing up a list of 
>>> requirements and achieving them, getting support from concept artists are 
>>> pipeline TD's if needed. XSI was* the software that allowed me to go the 
>>> furthest independently (*was because I've had to move to Maya). I would 
>>> love to replace that and Houdini appears to be a good fit but I'm not sure. 
>>> Maybe the "uber-nodes" you're discussing are anathematic to Houdini's 
>>> overall workflow but would be streamline the on-boarding process. XSI was 
>>> excellent at getting people into the software and then allowing you to get 
>>> into the more complex bits on your own; although ICE was the main weapon in 
>>> my arsenal, it's possible to work for years without ever touching it.
>>> 
>>> On 12 May 2018 at 09:34, Jordi Bares >> > wrote:
>>> @Matt, Exactly my thoughts (but clearly better explained)
>>> 
>>> I would certainly advocate to improve things in terms of node functionality 
>>> or assisting better in certain aspects (blend shape manager, exporting 
>>> bundles in and out, or adding hierarchical overrides in takes, or adding 
>>> certain tools we use every single day, or bringing more “uber nodes” to 
>>> VOPs so we don’t have to be so granular) but always without sacrificing 
>>> proceduralism or breaking their core design.
>>> 
>>> Jb
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 11 May 2018, at 22:04, Matt Lind >>> > wrote:
 
 Given Houdini is a node based system, there is a simple paradox at play 
 that in order to get the level of cohesiveness Softimage employed, tools 
 need to share information and work together. A node based system, by 
 design, requires each node to act independently. To get the Softimage 
 workflow in Houdini requires either monolithic nodes with enough 
 intelligence to cover all the bases of a particular task, or the UI needs 
 to take control and hide the nodes behind the scenes slapping user's 
 wrists if they attempt to fiddle with the nodes involved. In either case, 
 it works against a node based system's mantra.
 
 In short, I don't think it's possible for Houdini to ever become another 
 Softimage. You'll have to settle for something that has great power but 
 some degree of cumbersome workflow.
 
 Matt
 
 Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 18:44:10 +0100 From: Alastair Hearsum 
 mailto:alast...@glassworks.co.uk>> Subject: 
 Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs? To: softimage@listpr

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[paul]

In soft, you can make a shape in Secondary shape mode and have it reverse the 
skinning and save the shape, and in Maya, the new Shape manager allows the easy 
creation of corrective shapes in context of others.

How are blendshapes stored in Houdini? Are they always procedurally generated 
from other meshes, or can the delta be saved somehow as an attribute.


From: Jordi Bares 
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 10:19 AM
To: Paul Smith ; Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=HQQzmvrJp_c6r0aZWeyiloxvslTHShSoKpfCa_wa3Pk&s=DhQiSuNc7MDO8HWz2nJODhvQdQaHEhA5-tbawWabp0o&e=
 
Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?


  On 14 May 2018, at 09:59,   wrote:


  Anyway.  What I’m talking about is a tool that helps with the creation of 
shapes that are , for example in context of the current pose of the skinned 
mesh. Or making a shape that is a corrective, in context of 2 or more other 
shapes that are applied, and that kind of thing.
  All this is doable without a shape manager of course, but it takes longer, 
and can become tedious when you have to keep doing it. Its very nice to have a 
tool to make this happen in a no-brainer way and not have workarounds that 
undermine and stall the flow of enthusiasm.


Correct me if I am wrong but this is not a standard thing in any package 
actually… I wish it was though.
jb--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Alastair Hearsum]

Is this trolling? I'm not sure. But I feel I have to keep shooting this 
kind of thing down. Without naming names you know the guy that created a 
very complex feather system in ICE here at Glasswork, on the job. We 
have been using Houdini as you know for a few years now, so with the 
combination of a technically minded artist who operates at a high level 
exposed to Houdini for few years who is still tearing his hair out in 
frustration points to the issues with Houdini.
They need to seriously look at improving their user interaction. Its not 
just about getting used to it.


On 12/05/2018 16:18, Jordi Bares wrote:
I would suggest to give it a proper go, if you have used ICE you will 
see how easy it is.


jb



On 12 May 2018, at 10:48, Tom Kleinenberg > wrote:


This is a really interesting discussion and covers thoughts from all 
angles. There is an element to the discussion of technical types 
telling the rest of us we just need to "git gud" which is a bit 
disheartening though. (It's disheartening not because it's 
patronising but because the only way to use Houdini is to master it 
at fairly high technical level which will exclude a number of people, 
myself included). I understand that there is a technical learning 
curve to any piece of software but Houdini is a different beast to 
the other big three (Max, Maya, eXSI). You can drop a Maya artist in 
XSI and tell them to achieve a task and they'll do it - maybe not the 
most efficient way, but a way that works. I don't feel that's the 
same in Houdini. There's too much "well, nobody really models in 
Houdini" or "you can, but nobody really animates in Houdini". That's 
not necessarily bad, Zbrush is probably the "best" software on the 
market in terms of expectations to results but it's clear about it's 
narrow focus.


To put it in a personal way, I've worked to some level in 3DS Max, 
Maya, Lightwave and XSI. I wouldn't consider myself particularly 
artistically gifted or technically proficient but I am good at 
understanding the needs of a non-technical person (eg art-director), 
drawing up a list of requirements and achieving them, getting support 
from concept artists are pipeline TD's if needed. XSI was* the 
software that allowed me to go the furthest independently (*was 
because I've had to move to Maya). I would love to replace that and 
Houdini appears to be a good fit but I'm not sure. Maybe the 
"uber-nodes" you're discussing are anathematic to Houdini's overall 
workflow but would be streamline the on-boarding process. XSI was 
excellent at getting people into the software and then allowing you 
to get into the more complex bits on your own; although ICE was the 
main weapon in my arsenal, it's possible to work for years without 
ever touching it.


On 12 May 2018 at 09:34, Jordi Bares>wrote:


@Matt, Exactly my thoughts (but clearly better explained)

I would certainly advocate to improve things in terms of node
functionality or assisting better in certain aspects (blend shape
manager, exporting bundles in and out, or adding hierarchical
overrides in takes, or adding certain tools we use every single
day, or bringing more “uber nodes” to VOPs so we don’t have to be
so granular) but always without sacrificing proceduralism or
breaking their core design.

Jb




On 11 May 2018, at 22:04, Matt Lind mailto:speye...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Given Houdini is a node based system, there is a simple paradox
at play that in order to get the level of cohesiveness Softimage
employed, tools need to share information and work together. A
node based system, by design, requires each node to act
independently. To get the Softimage workflow in Houdini requires
either monolithic nodes with enough intelligence to cover all
the bases of a particular task, or the UI needs to take control
and hide the nodes behind the scenes slapping user's wrists if
they attempt to fiddle with the nodes involved. In either case,
it works against a node based system's mantra.

In short, I don't think it's possible for Houdini to ever become
another Softimage. You'll have to settle for something that has
great power but some degree of cumbersome workflow.

Matt

Message: 2 Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 18:44:10 +0100 From: Alastair
Hearsum mailto:alast...@glassworks.co.uk>> Subject: Re: Houdini : non
VFX jobs? To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com


I think there is real danger in pinning all this grumbling on
lack of familiarity and not acknowledging that there are some
fundamental design issues . The first step to recovery is to
admit that there a problem. As everyone knows there is some
fantastic technology in there but its strung together in an
awful way. Its like putting the organs of a 20 year old in an
octagenarian; each organ very capable in its 

Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Mirko Jankovic]

Guess wil have to wait for that closing signa bit more hehe
Unfortunately I'm not spending much time in SI lately, more on freelancing
tasks for animation which is *argh* all maya,
learning character animation in Houdini is a bit on long stick as industry
looking for char animation in Houdini is practically non existent.
Even with my small gpuoven farm there is less and less Softiamge render
tasks to help people with  that are closer to statistical error then real
thing.

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 11:19 AM adrian wyer 
wrote:

> still here, cold dead hands and all that
>
>
>
> i'll be the one to lock the door on the way out of this list and hang
> the closed sign on the outside of it
>
>
>
> #sigh
>
>
>
> a
>
>
>
> Adrian Wyer
> Fluid Pictures
> 4th Floor
> 4 Bath Place
> Rivington Street
> London
> EC2A 3DR
> ++44(0) 207 684 5575
>
>
> adrian.w...@fluid-pictures.com
>
> www.fluid-pictures.com
>
>
>
> Fluid Pictures Limited is registered in England and Wales.
> Company number:5657815
> VAT number: 872 6893 71
> --
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Laurence Dodd
> *Sent:* 14 May 2018 09:29
> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwIFaQ&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=fC_hpKZsIuS7sCfuW4Z8yjUaEYW7xf27YYVb9uQsmxo&s=-ue1bEmE6dXH-FdQiTe21DgeW-JYBeLJuBf8X8Ry1HA&e=
> *Subject:* Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?
>
>
>
> Still here,
>
> Using Soft a bit less all of a sudden, but if I need to do something fast
> always.
>
>
>
> laurence
>
>
>
> On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe  wrote:
>
> Just curious?
>
> Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old
> SIGGRAPHs on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage
> mailing lists, for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official
> social media.
>
> San Antonio still owes me a camera! -- Softimage Mailing List. To
> unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
> “unsubscribe” in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> *Laurence Dodd*
> *Porkpie Animation*
>
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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

> On 14 May 2018, at 09:59,   wrote:

> Anyway.  What I’m talking about is a tool that helps with the creation of 
> shapes that are , for example in context of the current pose of the skinned 
> mesh. Or making a shape that is a corrective, in context of 2 or more other 
> shapes that are applied, and that kind of thing.
> All this is doable without a shape manager of course, but it takes longer, 
> and can become tedious when you have to keep doing it. Its very nice to have 
> a tool to make this happen in a no-brainer way and not have workarounds that 
> undermine and stall the flow of enthusiasm.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is not a standard thing in any package 
actually… I wish it was though.
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RE: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[adrian wyer]

still here, cold dead hands and all that

 

i'll be the one to lock the door on the way out of this list and hang
the closed sign on the outside of it

 

#sigh

 

a

 

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From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Laurence Dodd
Sent: 14 May 2018 09:29
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing
List.https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist&d=DwICAg&c=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA&r=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA&m=CJMmpibyrHJqV3Q0vGUOeuySysL0qyTrQ_HR_BQWpHc&s=GG-Qa9qqh2rfVZ2ZAKrpI3YazuYu9o6elE-smG9B6Ok&e=
Subject: Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

 

Still here,

Using Soft a bit less all of a sudden, but if I need to do something fast
always.

 

laurence

 

On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe  wrote:

Just curious?

Now that I'm a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old
SIGGRAPHs on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage
mailing lists, for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official
social media.

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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

> On 14 May 2018, at 00:01, Matt Lind  wrote:
> you're dissecting things at a more granular level than is intended, and as a 
> result you're losing sight of the overall discussion.
> 
> a new user coming into Houdini doesn't have that historical background, nor 
> does he/she care. He only sees a lot of special case tools that require 
> inside knowledge to understand and use. That is the immediate point of 
> frustration that isn't resolved well with documentation, and in many cases, 
> not even discussed at all. This is one deterrent from adopting Houdini from 
> the generalist's perspective.
> 
You are right this could bring a lot of entry level comfort and easier 
transition. May comment it with the guys at SideFX.
> Houdini doesn't have good tools for dealing with the macro view of a scene 
> for the generalist. When you open a scene you're not familiar with, or one 
> you haven't opened in a very long time, you want to get a general overview of 
> it's structure in a few seconds. That is the purpose of mentioning the 
> schematic view as it provides that overview at a glance. Does it tell you 
> everything? No, of course not, but it doesn't have to either. It does tell 
> you the links between nodes such as who is constrained to whom, where the 
> envelopes reside, which nodes have shapes/lattices/etc. and very importantly 
> – hierarchical relationships to understand how rigs are put together. Again, 
> we're talking about the big picture. Explorer??? that’s for micro-level work 
> when you want the dirty details on an object.
> 
On this I believe you are way too close to Softimage because it is not trivial 
either to follow a complex scene, or a character… not saying it is not easier 
(it is) but it is not trivial either.
> It's not good for the broader picture as you have to spending a lot of time 
> clicking on nested node after node until you find what you're looking for, 
> and even then there's often a lot more information displayed than you need 
> leading to excessive noise. That's exactly the same problem with ICE 
> compounds as digging into nested compound after nested compound you begin to 
> lose sight over the bigger picture you're trying to grasp. This isn't a 
> discussion about which is more powerful, it's about presenting information 
> that is better suited for high level working for the non-technical user.
> 
Indeed this is a byproduct of a node approach, hence my personal preference for 
VEX Wrangles instead of VOPs (no wire, fully defined in one single node under 
the SOPs roof)
> As for networks and subnetworks. Great, you have a system. Most people do 
> not, or if they do, it will not be the same system as yours. THAT is the 
> point.
> 
Same as with Passes, Partitions, Groups, Overrides and Layers in Softimage… we 
build a consensus on how to use it (everything on the BG partition hidden for 
example) and even tools to move things to the right partitions based on one 
acting as template, etc..
> I'm not suggesting Houdini be rebuilt from the ground up. I'm highlighting 
> sticking points between it's current state and why more generalists don't 
> adopt it. When you get into a larger production pipeline, as much as you need 
> the low level power Houdini provides with assets and such, there is just as 
> much need at the opposite end of the spectrum with getting users into the 
> pipeline to do work.
> 
It is strange because it is precisely the very sophisticated HDAs system that 
allows Houdini to scale teams massively while keeping complexity under control.

A good example;

- I am developing a character, export the asset to disk and animators start to 
use it.
- They discover a problem with one control…
- I pick the asset, fix it and export the same version
- These users (let’s say rather than 1 there are 20 animators) get the asset 
WHILE THEY ARE WORKING, without interruption.

No scripts, not nothing.. bang.

Imagine the change is enormous, just add a version and they can choose the 
version they want to use… again, all dynamically.


Now scale this to *everything is an asset* where the city buildings are all 
being modelled live, the cars rigged, the characters updated… and you have to 
do NOTHING to get the latest and greatest version.

And now go further assets contain assets that contain assets, all versioned 
based where.

- City v1.0 contains BuildingA v1, BuildingB v1 and BuildingC v1
- City v2.0 contains BuildingA v2 and , BuildingB v1 and BuildingC v1

And those buildings indeed contain the windows as assets, the doors, the roof 
furniture… all versioned of course

You get it… no pipeline required, no scripts, no nothing.

Very very quickly you can see that may be, just may be, having the best f-curve 
editor is not even important in the big scheme of things.

cheers
Jb

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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Alastair Hearsum]

I think this is the overarching issue. It still feels like separate 
developers with their own sphere of interest not being unified into a 
cohesive product. As I said before they really really need someone like 
Steve Jobs who won't take no for an answer to knock some heads together 
and really get them to take the user experience as seriously as they do 
their technology.
The task seems clear to me. How its done is for someone who thinks abou 
this stuff for a living.


On 13/05/2018 22:48, Jordi Bares wrote:
There are historic reasons for this to be the case, in the very early 
days those were completely different programs, that was then unified 
and finally new contexts appeared (like VOPs) and lately MATs


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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[paul]

Hi Andreas,

When I say a shape manager, I don’t mean the part that applies the shapes as a 
deformer. I know that’s very easy to do and I never really use that part in 
Softimage I mostly use ICE. I do a lot of stuff with the deltas of Blendshapes 
that aren’t necessarily using them in a ‘traditional’ way.

(When I do mix blendshapes together in ICE, I dont just mix them in a linear 
additive way. I might have multiple streams that override other streams using 
the power of the nodal network ICE allows.  I know I can do the same in VOPS. 
However often I’m using the difference in the angle of surfaces to Rotate 
shapes. This is nowhere near as easy in Houdini as there aren’t many inbuilt 
geometry attributes to look up( like Point reference frame) and Matrices didn’t 
appear to be allowed as attributes. I found my trees were 4 times the size to 
achieve the same results as I had to keep manually constructing things like 
Point reference frame and found I couldn’t just make it as a freestanding 
‘compound node’ as it needed input wires ( although you probably can with VEX)

Anyway.  What I’m talking about is a tool that helps with the creation of 
shapes that are , for example in context of the current pose of the skinned 
mesh. Or making a shape that is a corrective, in context of 2 or more other 
shapes that are applied, and that kind of thing.
All this is doable without a shape manager of course, but it takes longer, and 
can become tedious when you have to keep doing it. Its very nice to have a tool 
to make this happen in a no-brainer way and not have workarounds that undermine 
and stall the flow of enthusiasm. 


From: Andreas Böinghoff 
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 4:35 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com 
Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

On 5/11/2018 5:21 PM, p...@bustykelp.com wrote:

  Is it possible to make something like a ‘Shape Manager’ in Houdini? 
On SOP level you can use the Blend shape node. Or you make your own one. 
Blendshapes are just an linear interpolation between two meshes with the same 
topo. 


If you want to make your custom deformer use the mix node in VOPs or the lerp 
function in vex. For weighting you can use any float attribute.

Andy

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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

It is interesting to note that your OBJ context is meant to show the “big 
picture” like Softimage could never do. My suggestion is to avoid using the 
given contexts (SHOPs, MATs, CHOPs, etc…) and do everything as a CHOP network, 
a MAT network, etc… _inside_ the OBJ, this way you get;

- The full picture
- Full modular design (assets embedding all the nuts and bolts for example)
- The ability to build HDAs and version up and down those…

etc…

Hope that helps… ultimately I still remember having to explain Softimage users 
the norms and conventions on using the Passes system, Partitions, Groups and 
Layers in Softimage the “company way” so we all worked the same way because the 
Softimage does not guide here either… and rightly so it _should not_.

cheers
jb


> On 14 May 2018, at 06:50, Andy Chlupka (Goehler) 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 14, 2018, at 1:01 AM, Matt Lind > > wrote:
>> 
>> Houdini doesn't have good tools for dealing with the macro view of a scene 
>> for the generalist. When you open a scene you're not familiar with, or one 
>> you haven't opened in a very long time, you want to get a general overview 
>> of it's structure in a few seconds. That is the purpose of mentioning the 
>> schematic view as it provides that overview at a glance.
>> 
> I think it does… Using Subnetworks, allows you to keep the top level very 
> simple, just like collapsed nodes in the schematic. Tools like network boxes 
> allow for documentation right there, same as icetrees. Color coding nodes can 
> group them in a visual way. These all aid to reduce complexity and provide 
> overview. 
>> Does it tell you everything? No, of course not, but it doesn't have to 
>> either. It does tell you the links between nodes such as who is constrained 
>> to whom, where the envelopes reside, which nodes have shapes/lattices/etc. 
>> and very importantly – hierarchical relationships to understand how rigs are 
>> put together.
>> 
> Again, this is fine for people who are proficient at those tasks. You make it 
> sound so simple, yet understanding someone else's rig is never done in a 
> matter of seconds. Not to other riggers, and especially to generalists. I 
> would agree, that there’s more help in Soft finding the details, but not in a 
> first glance overview.
> 
>> Again, we're talking about the big picture. Explorer??? that’s for 
>> micro-level work when you want the dirty details on an object. It's not good 
>> for the broader picture as you have to spending a lot of time clicking on 
>> nested node after node until you find what you're looking for, and even then 
>> there's often a lot more information displayed than you need leading to 
>> excessive noise. That's exactly the same problem with ICE compounds as 
>> digging into nested compound after nested compound you begin to lose sight 
>> over the bigger picture you're trying to grasp. This isn't a discussion 
>> about which is more powerful, it's about presenting information that is 
>> better suited for high level working for the non-technical user.
>> 
> And where exactly do we draw the line between ‘technical’ and 'non-technial’ 
> users? At the macro level shouldn’t it benefit both? I guess I’m failing in 
> grasping the broad term of generalist. I strongly believe, all of our staff 
> would fail so hard if they had to use Max or Maya tomorrow coming from Soft.
>> As for networks and subnetworks. Great, you have a system. Most people do 
>> not, or if they do, it will not be the same system as yours. THAT is the 
>> point. There is no consistent or uniform way of having information presented 
>> to you to get the high level picture of what's going on in the scene. There 
>> needs to be some base level of communicating to the user where things are 
>> placed, how they relate to each other, and so on, and not require the user 
>> to dig, dig, dig, dig, to get oriented to find ‘basic’ information.
>> 
> Are you still refering to the schematic? Because I’d generally describe them 
> just as messy, unorganized ;)
>> Someone can easily build a forest and hide 50,000 trees and other 
>> geographical features inside of a single network or subnetwork which appears 
>> as a single node in the network view, and even build it recursively. That is 
>> not informative. This is where Houdini needs to improve. In contrast, 
>> although it can be done, it's pretty difficult to hide those details in 
>> Softimage's Schematic view. You open the scene, BAM! you see the complexity 
>> right away.
>> 
> :) Honestly? It’s just as easy to shoot someone else in the foot with said 
> scenario in softimage (nesting point clouds, instancing groups) In the end 
> you’re dealing with complexity and I fail to see how the schematic helps to 
> decipher that in seconds.
>> I'm not suggesting Houdini be rebuilt from the ground up. I'm highlighting 
>> sticking points between it's current state and why more generalists don't 
>> adopt it. When you get into a larger pro

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Alastair Hearsum]

Good stuff Matt. Couldn't find anything to disagree with there.

On 14/05/2018 00:01, Matt Lind wrote:


you're dissecting things at a more granular level than is intended, 
and as a result you're losing sight of the overall discussion.


a new user coming into Houdini doesn't have that historical 
background, nor does he/she care. He only sees a lot of special case 
tools that require inside knowledge to understand and use. That is the 
immediate point of frustration that isn't resolved well with 
documentation, and in many cases, not even discussed at all. This is 
one deterrent from adopting Houdini from the generalist's perspective.


Houdini doesn't have good tools for dealing with the macro view of a 
scene for the generalist. When you open a scene you're not familiar 
with, or one you haven't opened in a very long time, you want to get a 
general overview of it's structure in a few seconds. That is the 
purpose of mentioning the schematic view as it provides that overview 
at a glance. Does it tell you everything? No, of course not, but it 
doesn't have to either. It does tell you the links between nodes such 
as who is constrained to whom, where the envelopes reside, which nodes 
have shapes/lattices/etc. and very importantly – hierarchical 
relationships to understand how rigs are put together. Again, we're 
talking about the big picture. Explorer??? that’s for micro-level work 
when you want the dirty details on an object. It's not good for the 
broader picture as you have to spending a lot of time clicking on 
nested node after node until you find what you're looking for, and 
even then there's often a lot more information displayed than you need 
leading to excessive noise. That's exactly the same problem with ICE 
compounds as digging into nested compound after nested compound you 
begin to lose sight over the bigger picture you're trying to grasp. 
This isn't a discussion about which is more powerful, it's about 
presenting information that is better suited for high level working 
for the non-technical user.


As for networks and subnetworks. Great, you have a system. Most people 
do not, or if they do, it will not be the same system as yours. THAT 
is the point. There is no consistent or uniform way of having 
information presented to you to get the high level picture of what's 
going on in the scene. There needs to be some base level of 
communicating to the user where things are placed, how they relate to 
each other, and so on, and not require the user to dig, dig, dig, dig, 
to get oriented to find ‘basic’ information. Someone can easily build 
a forest and hide 50,000 trees and other geographical features inside 
of a single network or subnetwork which appears as a single node in 
the network view, and even build it recursively. That is not 
informative. This is where Houdini needs to improve. In contrast, 
although it can be done, it's pretty difficult to hide those details 
in Softimage's Schematic view. You open the scene, BAM! you see the 
complexity right away.


I'm not suggesting Houdini be rebuilt from the ground up. I'm 
highlighting sticking points between it's current state and why more 
generalists don't adopt it. When you get into a larger production 
pipeline, as much as you need the low level power Houdini provides 
with assets and such, there is just as much need at the opposite end 
of the spectrum with getting users into the pipeline to do work. Many 
of whom are not thoroughly trained and need to learn on the fly, and 
probably won't have a great deal of interest learning all the ins and 
outs beyond the bare necessities to get their job done to 
satisfaction. As production scales up, the quality of your users tends 
to drop because you have the matter of filling seats to crank out work 
by a specific deadline, and each seat has a salary cap. Therefore, 
whatever pipeline you have, it must accommodate these less than ideal 
users. Many generalists struggle with learning and/or forming good 
habits even when given good instruction as you're forcing 
non-technical people into a technical environment. It's alien to them 
in a migraine headache creating type of way because an artist is 
generally right-brained while technical users are generally 
left-brained. A schematic view is right-brained approach. 
Explorer/networks is a left-brained approach. While Houdini has a 
functional equivalent of a schematic view in the network view, it 
doesn't provide the same information the generalist seeks because it 
requires additional attention to detail to dissect the graphs in a 
more left-brained approach. Houdini needs more right-brained tools and 
interfaces to accommodate the generalist.


Matt

Message: 2 Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 22:48:16 +0100 From: Jordi Bares 
 Subject: Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs? To: 
"Official Softimage Users Mailing List.


This thread is getting really really useful, thanks Matt?

More comments below.

On 13 May 2018, at 21:00, Matt Lind  wrote: 
Anothe

Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Laurence Dodd]

Still here,
Using Soft a bit less all of a sudden, but if I need to do something fast
always.

laurence

On 11 May 2018 at 17:23, Bradley Gabe  wrote:

> Just curious?
>
> Now that I’m a resident in San Antonio, I was reminiscing about old
> SIGGRAPHs on the Riverwalk, and came to the realization that the Softimage
> mailing lists, for me at least, were my Facebook before there was official
> social media.
>
> San Antonio still owes me a camera! -- Softimage Mailing List. To
> unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
> “unsubscribe” in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>



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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Jens Lindgren]

Hi!
I'm still here…
Doing mainly pipeline and supervising but still uses Softimage with Arnold
as main DCC when I need to dig in with my own hands.
Still haven't decided what to learn after Softimage but I'm most excited
about Unreal and Houdini.

/Jens

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 10:12 AM, Juan Brockhaus 
wrote:

> hi,
>
> also still lurking around ;-)
> but hardly used Softimage in the last two years now... missing ICE and the
> general workflow a lot though...
>
> Maya...
> Houdini really only once on a bigger show. but trying to get my hands on
> it whenever I can...
>
> cheers,
>
> Juan
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Graham D. Clark <
> mailgrahamdcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Glad you mentionend Touch Ed. I stopped using Touch for a decade or so
>> and now I use it for as much as possible before committing to Houdini Maya
>> or Nuke.
>> It’s GLSL support is outstanding. I use Touch osc to present in no way
>> that PowerPointers could dream of. Greg and his team created such a
>> wonderful tool. It’s what Houdini should have become years ago. Real-time,
>> and as mentioned on this list circa 2002, a visible heterogeneous scene
>> graph. That’s my dinosaur talk.
>> Cheers Brad,
>> Graham
>>
>> On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:49 PM Ed Manning  wrote:
>>
>>> I still read the list pretty regularly, but have found the S/N ratio
>>> degraded compared to a few years ago.
>>>
>>> I still use Softimage a lot, along with Unreal and Touchdesigner.
>>> Real-time is getting to the fun creative exploration place that VFX was in
>>> for so many decades (for me at least).
>>>
>>> Touchdesigner is getting more and more capable, and is very ICE-like in
>>> a lot of ways (which is not really surprising given its roots in Houdini).
>>> It's really becoming my tool of first resort for a lot of things. And many
>>> important parts have already been moved onto the GPU, so performance for
>>> certain things is insane. Particle counts in the millions in real-time or
>>> near-real-time, for example.
>>>
>>> Dinosaurs are still around in IRL, anyway -- we call them "birds" now.
>>>
>>> :-)
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>>>
>>
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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Juan Brockhaus]

hi,

also still lurking around ;-)
but hardly used Softimage in the last two years now... missing ICE and the
general workflow a lot though...

Maya...
Houdini really only once on a bigger show. but trying to get my hands on it
whenever I can...

cheers,

Juan



On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Graham D. Clark  wrote:

> Glad you mentionend Touch Ed. I stopped using Touch for a decade or so and
> now I use it for as much as possible before committing to Houdini Maya or
> Nuke.
> It’s GLSL support is outstanding. I use Touch osc to present in no way
> that PowerPointers could dream of. Greg and his team created such a
> wonderful tool. It’s what Houdini should have become years ago. Real-time,
> and as mentioned on this list circa 2002, a visible heterogeneous scene
> graph. That’s my dinosaur talk.
> Cheers Brad,
> Graham
>
> On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:49 PM Ed Manning  wrote:
>
>> I still read the list pretty regularly, but have found the S/N ratio
>> degraded compared to a few years ago.
>>
>> I still use Softimage a lot, along with Unreal and Touchdesigner.
>> Real-time is getting to the fun creative exploration place that VFX was in
>> for so many decades (for me at least).
>>
>> Touchdesigner is getting more and more capable, and is very ICE-like in a
>> lot of ways (which is not really surprising given its roots in Houdini).
>> It's really becoming my tool of first resort for a lot of things. And many
>> important parts have already been moved onto the GPU, so performance for
>> certain things is insane. Particle counts in the millions in real-time or
>> near-real-time, for example.
>>
>> Dinosaurs are still around in IRL, anyway -- we call them "birds" now.
>>
>> :-)
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>
> --
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Re: Any Dinosaurs Still Lurking?

[Graham D. Clark]

Glad you mentionend Touch Ed. I stopped using Touch for a decade or so and
now I use it for as much as possible before committing to Houdini Maya or
Nuke.
It’s GLSL support is outstanding. I use Touch osc to present in no way that
PowerPointers could dream of. Greg and his team created such a wonderful
tool. It’s what Houdini should have become years ago. Real-time, and as
mentioned on this list circa 2002, a visible heterogeneous scene graph.
That’s my dinosaur talk.
Cheers Brad,
Graham

On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:49 PM Ed Manning  wrote:

> I still read the list pretty regularly, but have found the S/N ratio
> degraded compared to a few years ago.
>
> I still use Softimage a lot, along with Unreal and Touchdesigner.
> Real-time is getting to the fun creative exploration place that VFX was in
> for so many decades (for me at least).
>
> Touchdesigner is getting more and more capable, and is very ICE-like in a
> lot of ways (which is not really surprising given its roots in Houdini).
> It's really becoming my tool of first resort for a lot of things. And many
> important parts have already been moved onto the GPU, so performance for
> certain things is insane. Particle counts in the millions in real-time or
> near-real-time, for example.
>
> Dinosaurs are still around in IRL, anyway -- we call them "birds" now.
>
> :-)
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.