Re: SIGN for Backflow Prevention Assembly Forward Flow Test

[Douglas Hicks]

25-1998 9-6.2(a) A forward flow test shall be conducted at the system 
demand,including hose stream demand, where hydrants or inside hose station 
are located downstream of the backflow preventer.
  (b) A backflow performance test, as required by the 
AHJ, shall be conducted at he completion of the forward flow test.


So after 15 years, there is still lots of confusion about the forward flow 
and provision to do a forward flow test is still lacking in new systems.


-Original Message- 
From: djj8...@aol.com

Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:07 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: SIGN for Backflow Prevention Assembly Forward Flow Test

How new is this code?


In a message dated 7/29/2013 4:58:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
masorn...@kfi-eng.com writes:

Depends  on the edition of the standard a local jurisdiction has adopted,
as well as  any local amendments - but yes, forward flow tests of the
backflow assembly  are required by NFPA 13 and 25.

Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. |  Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct:  701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
http://www.kfiengineers.com

-Original Message-
From:  sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
djj8...@aol.com

Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 3:49 PM
To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: SIGN for Backflow  Prevention Assembly Forward Flow Test

Is this "forward flow test" now  part of the required code? I was just on a
job the other day. New  Construction. I noticed that all the systems had a
setup  with (2) 2 1/2"  hose valves after the backflow and alarm valve, in
addition to  the 2"  main drain. I take it that these 2 1/2's are for this
test?


In a  message dated 7/29/2013 3:57:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
g...@livingwaterfp.com writes:

That  isn't what the intent of the  code is as stated.just flow at
system demand. I can only speak for us, but  we do a LOT of risers with only 
a

250 gpm or so demand...sometimes even  less.

A 4" drain is well  over what we need to open it up enough  for system
demand. I would bet a 2"  drain gets really  close.


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 2:52 PM, David  Autry   wrote:


Wouldn't it be easier, if   you have a 4" backflow preventer you run 4"
out the wall, 3" BFP,  3"  out the wall, etc...
That should open her up all the   way.


David Autry

Meininger Fire   Protection Inc.
2521 W L St. Suite No.4
Lincoln, Ne   68522
Voice (402) 466-2616
Fax (402) 466-2617
  da...@mfp-inc.com

-Original Message-
 From:  sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf  Of

Greg

McGahan
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 2:35 PM
 To:  sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: SIGN for  Backflow  Prevention Assembly Forward Flow Test

What  would be simple and  helpful would be a table similar to the one
 used for sizing fire pump  Suction/Discharge/Relief Valve Piping  etc.

Since you are not  measuring pressure, you could say  2" up to X
gallons, 2.5" for Y  etc

A 2-1/2"  Main drain is much easier and cheaper than  some of the
 arrangments left / required on backflow  preventers.

 Greg


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013  at 12:46 PM, Ron  Greenman
 wrote:

 > Better but it is  still interpretable as requiring a measured  flow
> be established  (if using the main drain location then  the BOR
> design

data).

> Then  you'd need a  port that flowed that much, main drain or
> otherwise,  and  then measure your annual test against anticipated
> flow to  make
 > sure you are meeting or exceeding the required flow.  Or am I
missing
> something? I'm pretty certain that newer  fire service  rated
> backflows don't fail any more often than  normal FS checks,  and that
> that type of failure is either  catastrophic (doesn't  open or barely
> opens) wouldn't a  simple main drain test with  decent flow
> demonstrate that  the valve is working? just a Forum  question as
> this is a  done deal and I wasn't invited to join the  exclusive
> 25  club.
>
>
> On Mon,  Jul 29, 2013 at  7:11 AM, Roland Huggins
>   wrote:
>
> >  the  next edition has been cleaned-up on this issue.
>  >
>  >  ___
  > > 25-271
> Log
> > #CP15 Final Action:   Accept
> > (13.6.2.1, 13.6.2.2 (New))
> >   ___
 >  Submitter:
> > Technical Committee on Inspection,  Testing, and  Maintenance of
> Water-Based
> >  Systems,
 > >
> > Recommendation: Revise  13.6.2.1 to read as  follows:
> > 13.6.2.1 All backflow  preventers installed in fire  protection
> > system piping  shall be exercised annually by  conducting a forward
> >  flow test at a minimum flow rate of the  system design.
> >  Add new 13.6.2.2 and renumber subsequent  sections accordingly:
 > > 13.6.2.2 Where hydrants or inside hose  stations are  loc

Re: Shoulder Nipple

[Douglas Hicks]

I would grab my laptop, get online and ask the forum what a shoulder nipple 
is.


-Original Message- 
From: JSM Fire Pro

Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2013 7:12 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Shoulder Nipple

You’re a third party glancing over a bill of materials for an add/relocate
day job.  You notice one of the line items is calling for several ½”
shoulder nipples.



What goes through your mind?



J. Scott Mitchell, PE

B&W Technical Services Pantex

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Re: Central Recall

[Douglas Hicks]

We have a motel with the recalled heads.  I did the paper work and the owner 
refused to sign the authorization form.  When the new owners asked about the 
recall, they were informed the previous owner refused the service.   The QR 
sprinklers are now exceeding 10 years old and are due for the 10 year 
service.   There are also  painted heads in the pool area.   I like the grey 
paint they used because it hides the corrosion on the heads and the heat 
detectors.  They will get an estimate to replace the heads and the heats. 
Also someone removed a leaking dry head, and heads and piping in the pool 
maintance room.


Is there a chance to get the heads replaced now?  I don't really care if we 
do the replacement or if Tyco uses their own people.  I would like to get 
the heads replaced. One reason is selfish, I stay in that motel.


-Original Message- 
From: BF Blake

Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:13 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Central Recall

Chris,

No, all of the heads have NOT been replaced.  My last call with the VRP 
office (now closed) was 10M heads out of the 35M were not replaced - that 
was several years ago.


But, having worked as a sprinkler service manager for SimplexGrinnell and 
several other fire sprinkler companies that have done inspections work I 
know for a fact that o-ring and Omega heads are still frequently found in 
the field and owners have been interviewed to determine if claim forms were 
executed or not.


The reasons for this are:

1.  Non-Tyco ITM firms generally did NOT get paid to do the site surveys. 
Owners didn't have time, knowledge, skill or energy to fill out the  claim 
forms.
2.  A small number of ITM companies charged clients to conduct the field 
surveys and fill out the paperwork for the owners, but most ITM firms did 
not do this.  The forms didn't get filled out and didn't get turned in.
3.  The recalls were addressed under an Annex (A4.1.4) in NFPA 25 and not in 
the required section of 25.  As a result, except with limited exception and 
a few AHJs (notably Alexandria VA) no AHJs required their replacement.
4. The Omegas, in particular, were in residential apartments where 
individual fire sprinkler head inspections were not and are not generally 
enforced, lots and lots of locked doors.  Some AHJs, most notably, Florida, 
have and DO require individual head inspections per NFPA 25, most 
jurisdictions do not.  With limited access or a "Barrier" to access these 
heads didn't get documented.


There are thousands and thousands of recalls in the field.  Reagan 
International Airport DC is one high profile location where they exist.  I 
see them all of the time in my travels.


Byron

(I now work for Tyco Fire Protection Products as a Territory Manager - Fixed 
Systems - Americas) - but previously I served as an inspection/service 
manager with SimplexGrinnell in CT and Montana/Wyoming.  I also worked for 
several smaller firms in Colorado and Maryland and worked for Wayne 
Automatic in Florida.)



From: ccah...@burnsmcd.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 15:45:44 -0500
Subject: Central Recall

Yes, I know this expired back in '07.  Or at least Tyco paying for 
replacements expired, the heads are still recalled.  The question is have 
all submitted claims been replaced?  I know there are a lot of them still 
out there that were never claimed under the recall.


Chris Cahill, PE*
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
Burns & McDonnell
8201 Norman Center Drive
Bloomington, MN 55437
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com

Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
*Registered in: MN




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Re: Central Recall

[Douglas Hicks]

-Original Message- 
From: BF Blake

Sent: Friday, September 06, 2013 2:13 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Central Recall

Chris,

No, all of the heads have NOT been replaced.  My last call with the VRP 
office (now closed) was 10M heads out of the 35M were not replaced - that 
was several years ago.


But, having worked as a sprinkler service manager for SimplexGrinnell and 
several other fire sprinkler companies that have done inspections work I 
know for a fact that o-ring and Omega heads are still frequently found in 
the field and owners have been interviewed to determine if claim forms were 
executed or not.


The reasons for this are:

1.  Non-Tyco ITM firms generally did NOT get paid to do the site surveys. 
Owners didn't have time, knowledge, skill or energy to fill out the  claim 
forms.
2.  A small number of ITM companies charged clients to conduct the field 
surveys and fill out the paperwork for the owners, but most ITM firms did 
not do this.  The forms didn't get filled out and didn't get turned in.
3.  The recalls were addressed under an Annex (A4.1.4) in NFPA 25 and not in 
the required section of 25.  As a result, except with limited exception and 
a few AHJs (notably Alexandria VA) no AHJs required their replacement.
4. The Omegas, in particular, were in residential apartments where 
individual fire sprinkler head inspections were not and are not generally 
enforced, lots and lots of locked doors.  Some AHJs, most notably, Florida, 
have and DO require individual head inspections per NFPA 25, most 
jurisdictions do not.  With limited access or a "Barrier" to access these 
heads didn't get documented.


There are thousands and thousands of recalls in the field.  Reagan 
International Airport DC is one high profile location where they exist.  I 
see them all of the time in my travels.


Byron

(I now work for Tyco Fire Protection Products as a Territory Manager - Fixed 
Systems - Americas) - but previously I served as an inspection/service 
manager with SimplexGrinnell in CT and Montana/Wyoming.  I also worked for 
several smaller firms in Colorado and Maryland and worked for Wayne 
Automatic in Florida.)



From: ccah...@burnsmcd.com
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2013 15:45:44 -0500
Subject: Central Recall

Yes, I know this expired back in '07.  Or at least Tyco paying for 
replacements expired, the heads are still recalled.  The question is have 
all submitted claims been replaced?  I know there are a lot of them still 
out there that were never claimed under the recall.


Chris Cahill, PE*
Senior Fire Protection Engineer
Burns & McDonnell
8201 Norman Center Drive
Bloomington, MN 55437
Phone:  952.656.3652
Fax:  952.229.2923
ccah...@burnsmcd.com
www.burnsmcd.com

Proud to be one of FORTUNE's 100 Best Companies to Work For
*Registered in: MN




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Re: OSHA Tie off requrements

[Douglas Hicks]

How do you tie off a ladder, it you cannot climb the ladder until it is tied 
off?


-Original Message- 
From: BJ Newlin

Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 9:25 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: OSHA Tie off requrements

Hey everyone,

We have a general contractor's safety consultant requiring us to tie off if
our feet are more than 6'-0" above the ground when we are working off of a
step ladder (our fitters feet are at 8'-0" off the ground on a 10' ladder).
My recollection is this isn't an OSHA requirement, as they assert, but more
of a general contractors requirement, at least as it relates to step
ladders.  Does anyone know for sure one way or another if this specifically
required by OSHA and where I could find that text?

Thank you in advance!

BJ Newlin

bjnew...@bamfordfire.com

mobile:  913.208.1714
phone:   913.432.6688
fax:  913.432.5294

The secret of Change is to focus all of your energy not on fighting the old,
but on building the new.
— Socrates


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Re: "Sprinkler law dampens area construction"

[Douglas Hicks]

Teri, I got a 404 response.   Did Georges reputation get the newspaper to 
pull the story?



-Original Message- 
From: Terri S. Leyton

Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2013 3:35 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: "Sprinkler law dampens area construction"

Hi all,

Take a look at this article.
http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/news/article_8396d406-302d-11e3-a026-0019
bb2963f4.html

It comes from Calavaras, CA.  (NorCal)



Sprinkler law dampens area construction

Residential fire sprinklers have been required since 2011 and add thousands
of dollars to construction costs.



I encourage everyone to put on their George Church cap and write a response
to this article.  We are likely contacting the reporter through our CA Fire
Sprinkler Coalition.

Please shoot me a copy of any responses.

Thanks!

T



Terri S. Leyton

Terri Leyton Consulting, Inc. (TLC Fire)

1444 Nashville St.

San Diego, CA 92110

C:  619.871.8450

F:  619.768.2487

www.tlcfire.com 



Fire Sprinklers Save Lives, Property & Firefighters!



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Re: air maintenance device for a pressure vessel

[Douglas Hicks]

Riser Mount or Tank Mount?

-Original Message- 
From: Joel Chaim 
Sent: Monday, October 14, 2013 3:02 PM 
To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org 
Subject: air maintenance device for a pressure vessel 


Hi,



Anybody here can advise/recommend an air maintenance rated for 150 psi
working pressure?

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jockey pump runs intermittently

[Douglas Hicks]

That says it. The jockey pump runs at 5 minute intervals, for less than 30 
seconds.  Start pressure is 90 PSI, shutoff at 135 PSI.   The electric fire 
pump leaks about a drop at 2 minutes. The wet pipes are under insulation, and 
no leakage  through the sheetrock ceiling. The jockey pump does not leak, nor 
does the jockey pump or sensing lines leak. There is one check valve in the 
sensing line, about 3 years old. Shutting the wet and dry system off together 
or separately  makes no difference in the intermittent operation of the jockey 
pump.  The jockey pump piping is 2”and about 12 feet long. The sensing line is 
3/4” copper x 15 feet.  Would a leak in the 4” x  1’ pipe at the OS&Y valve be 
the problem? 
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Re: jockey pump runs intermittently

[Douglas Hicks]

The jockey is  2 or 3  years old, and is not leaking.   It was a cold 
winter, someone removed both electric heaters in the sprinkler room. 
At -15°F, things freeze, including jockey pumps.  And all 10 gauges, the 
air relief valve on the fire pump piping, the condensate drips, and other 
things I forgot.   I need to look at the check valve, the plumber did that. 
We don't solder copper pipes.


-Original Message- 
From: rongreenman .

Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:07 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: jockey pump runs intermittently

So the leak is before any valves you shut off downstream of the pump. And
there is a leak. If the check after the jockey pump discharge leaks the
loss could be through the jockey packing. If the check after the FP
discharge leaks the loss could be through the FP packing. You don't need
much of a leak to lose pressure quickly. There's no direct (1:1)
correlation. The check in the sensing line should have a hole in it, it's
to buffer surges, and there should be two in each sensing line. And, if
memory serves me, the pump is supposed to leak ten drops per minute so
loosen the packing a tad, but that may be a "best practices" idea I've
carried around for the past thirty years.


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Steve Leyton 
wrote:



Sounds like the JP is set to come on WAY too low, for starters.  Refer to
NFPA 20, A.14.2.6.4, which offers a recommended configuration of your JP
and FP settings for pump up/pump down.

Steve Leyton




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Douglas Hicks
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:36 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: jockey pump runs intermittently

That says it. The jockey pump runs at 5 minute intervals, for less than 30
seconds.  Start pressure is 90 PSI, shutoff at 135 PSI.   The electric 
fire

pump leaks about a drop at 2 minutes. The wet pipes are under insulation,
and no leakage  through the sheetrock ceiling. The jockey pump does not
leak, nor does the jockey pump or sensing lines leak. There is one check
valve in the sensing line, about 3 years old. Shutting the wet and dry
system off together or separately  makes no difference in the intermittent
operation of the jockey pump.  The jockey pump piping is 2”and about 12
feet long. The sensing line is 3/4” copper x 15 feet.  Would a leak in the
4” x  1’ pipe at the OS&Y valve be the problem?
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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Re: jockey pump runs intermittently

[Douglas Hicks]

My copy of 20 is in my van, which is at my shop..   But you can be sure 
tomorrow, while my driver is taking me to a couple of jobs, I will be 
looking at the sensing line requirements.


-Original Message- 
From: rongreenman .

Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: jockey pump runs intermittently

Plumb=ers don't get fire pumps. Learn to sweat, learn to braze. Both are
easy and keep plumbing hands off critical parts like FP sensing lines. And
both sensing lines are supposed to be attached to the main line between
discharge check and the main discharge control valve. Shut that control
valve jockey discharge control valve and if the same thing occurs you have
a leak in either one of those check valves, or, and sight unseen, I'm
betting the real problem is that sensing line check and it doesn't have a
hole.


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Douglas Hicks  wrote:


The jockey is  2 or 3  years old, and is not leaking.   It was a cold
winter, someone removed both electric heaters in the sprinkler room. At
-15°F, things freeze, including jockey pumps.  And all 10 gauges, the air
relief valve on the fire pump piping, the condensate drips, and other
things I forgot.   I need to look at the check valve, the plumber did 
that.

We don't solder copper pipes.

-Original Message- From: rongreenman .
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 7:07 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org

Subject: Re: jockey pump runs intermittently

So the leak is before any valves you shut off downstream of the pump. And
there is a leak. If the check after the jockey pump discharge leaks the
loss could be through the jockey packing. If the check after the FP
discharge leaks the loss could be through the FP packing. You don't need
much of a leak to lose pressure quickly. There's no direct (1:1)
correlation. The check in the sensing line should have a hole in it, it's
to buffer surges, and there should be two in each sensing line. And, if
memory serves me, the pump is supposed to leak ten drops per minute so
loosen the packing a tad, but that may be a "best practices" idea I've
carried around for the past thirty years.


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 5:44 PM, Steve Leyton 
**wrote:

 Sounds like the JP is set to come on WAY too low, for starters.  Refer to

NFPA 20, A.14.2.6.4, which offers a recommended configuration of your JP
and FP settings for pump up/pump down.

Steve Leyton




-Original Message-
From: 
sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.**firesprinkler.org[mailto:

sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.**firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Douglas Hicks
Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:36 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org

Subject: jockey pump runs intermittently

That says it. The jockey pump runs at 5 minute intervals, for less than 
30

seconds.  Start pressure is 90 PSI, shutoff at 135 PSI.   The electric
fire
pump leaks about a drop at 2 minutes. The wet pipes are under insulation,
and no leakage  through the sheetrock ceiling. The jockey pump does not
leak, nor does the jockey pump or sensing lines leak. There is one check
valve in the sensing line, about 3 years old. Shutting the wet and dry
system off together or separately  makes no difference in the 
intermittent

operation of the jockey pump.  The jockey pump piping is 2”and about 12
feet long. The sensing line is 3/4” copper x 15 feet.  Would a leak in 
the

4” x  1’ pipe at the OS&Y valve be the problem?
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/**fireprotection/<http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/>

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis 
Bacon,

essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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oven sets of sprinkler

[Douglas Hicks]

http://www.fireengineering.com/news/2013/10/24/oven-triggers-union-fire-alarm.html

Assuming the head was a 155°F, should opening the oven have tripped the head?  
If the head was replaced with a higher temp, what effect would that have on a 
fire in another area in the kitchen.  I thought the fire area was to have all 
the same temp heads. 
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NFPA25 scope

[Douglas Hicks]

http://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/november-december-2013/features/closer-look?order_src=C246

More on 25 and the scope of 25.
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Re: NFPA25 scope

[Douglas Hicks]

Wow, did not mean to get everyone so excited!

How do you verify the adequacy of the sprinkler system? It cannot be the 
average inspector, you would need to hire an FPE or NICET III.  And if you 
do not have the original prints, someone will have pay the have a new set of 
drawings done and new water calcs and new water availability testing.   How 
much will this cost?  We have customers that do not want to pay for painted 
and corroded sprinkler replacement.


-Original Message- 
From: Cahill, Christopher

Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2013 2:14 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: NFPA25 scope

I think all would agree with what you said.  I think the question asked was 
woulda, coulda, shoulda NFPA add system evaluation?


Roland's question was 'One of the question is should verifying the adequacy 
of the sprinkler system be part of an NFPA 25 inspection or some other NFPA 
document?'









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Cellophane bags

[Douglas Hicks]

OK, I come here and get educated  on using cellophane bags on paint booth 
heads.  Where do I get some?

Next to the paint booth is a blast booth where they use metal chips to prep the 
metal for painting.  I expect I should use the cellophane bags there also?
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Paint both heads

[Douglas Hicks]

I need to replace some SSU SR heads in a heated paint booth.  I am thinking 
280°F heads or 325°F.  All the existing heads failed when the power went off 
and the heads froze.  When the clean-up was done, all the little pieces of the 
metal links got swept up and tossed. 
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Re: Paint both heads

[Douglas Hicks]

Green, the same color of the pipes, the walls, the floor and the product 
being painted.  If there were bags on the heads, they also would be green. 
but if there were bags, I could pull one off and make note of the frame 
color.


There is no head box, in the spray booth area.  The only head box has 155°F 
White Recessed SSP and 155°F SSU.


Charles, I never thought about the high limit furnace cut-off switch.  That 
will be a question I ask when I speak to them next week.
When we do a heated booth with dry chemical, we use 280°F, and an unheated 
booth gets 212°F.  but those links get changed every 6 months, if they are 
fusible metal or glass bulb links.
-Original Message- 
From: Kenneth Berman

Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2014 7:24 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Paint both heads

Highest expected ambient temperature must be considered. You said the links
had been swept up. What's the color on the frames of the heads? What is in
the head box?


On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Charles Thurston  wrote:


Hello Scott,

When I was doing Dry Chem in heated spray booths. I would ask where the
"High Limit Safety Cutout" was set for the heater. Thn I would pick a link
from there. You would know the max that the booth could get to before it
shutdown.

Saturday, January 4, 2014, 9:32:13 AM, you wrote:

> Douglas,

> You really need to accurately determine what the highest ambient
> temperature will be in the paint booth before choosing a temperature
rating.

> Scott Futrell
>
> (763) 425-1001 x12 Office
> (612) 759-5556 Cell


> -Original Message-
> From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
Douglas Hicks
> Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2014 12:40 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Paint both heads

> I need to replace some SSU SR heads in a heated paint booth.  I am
> thinking 280°F heads or 325°F.  All the existing heads failed when
> the power went off and the heads froze.  When the clean-up was done,
> all the little pieces of the metal links got swept up and tossed.
> ___


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Paint Booth

[Douglas Hicks]

Can someone tell me what this head is?  It is an SSU, brass, SR, fusible link, 
3/4 pipe marked A584 on the deflector and marked MHX on the frame.  There is no 
paint on the arms. But I could have removed the frame paint when I removed the 
green paint.   I vaguely remember that as a Grinnell number.  What is the K 
factor?  I assume because the frame is not painted the temp rating is 155°F.   
The 3/4 pipe means it is an Extra Large Orifice? 

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Re: Paint Booth

[Douglas Hicks]

The heads in the sprinkler cabinet are not the same as those in the paint 
booth.  We had to move the soda pop machine, as it was blocking access to 
the head box.


My guys did bring the used parts back to the shop.  I brought one of the 
paint booth heads home with me.  I soaked the head in Coca Cola.  That 
dissolved most of the gunk on the head.  Then I put it on the wood stove. 
Ping!  Just like a toaster letting you know toast is done.  I was able to 
see the temp was 165°F.  I still don't see any markings except for those 
previously noted.


Central did have a center strut fusible link. This head has a fusible link 
made of 2 cups soldered to together.


-Original Message- 
From: Mike Cabral

Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:48 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Paint Booth

I remember now that the links where gone because they went off do to heat. 
Any parts? I can identify most sprinkler mfg by looking at the type of link. 
Central had at least 4 model A sprinklers at one time. I don't recall any 
Grinnell model A


Should be more info on the deflector than you are reporting. What was the 
make of heads in spare head cabinet?


Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2014, at 11:00 PM, Mike Cabral  
wrote:


Do you have a photo of the link?

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 12, 2014, at 10:41 PM, "Douglas Hicks"  wrote:

Can someone tell me what this head is?  It is an SSU, brass, SR, fusible 
link, 3/4 pipe marked A584 on the deflector and marked MHX on the frame. 
There is no paint on the arms. But I could have removed the frame paint 
when I removed the green paint.   I vaguely remember that as a Grinnell 
number.  What is the K factor?  I assume because the frame is not painted 
the temp rating is 155°F.   The 3/4 pipe means it is an Extra Large 
Orifice?


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Re: Paint Booth

[Douglas Hicks]

The date is 1992.  Isn't that after Tyco bought Grinnell?

-Original Message- 
From: David Autry

Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 6:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Paint Booth

Issue C Grinnell, temp and date should be on the rim of the inter "cup"


David Autry

Meininger Fire Protection Inc.
2521 W L St. Suite No.4
Lincoln, Ne 68522
Voice (402) 466-2616
Fax (402) 466-2617
da...@mfp-inc.com

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
Douglas Hicks
Sent: Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Paint Booth

Can someone tell me what this head is?  It is an SSU, brass, SR, fusible
link, 3/4 pipe marked A584 on the deflector and marked MHX on the frame.
There is no paint on the arms. But I could have removed the frame paint
when I removed the green paint.   I vaguely remember that as a Grinnell
number.  What is the K factor?  I assume because the frame is not painted
the temp rating is 155°F.   The 3/4 pipe means it is an Extra Large
Orifice?

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rg
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3/4" sprinkler head

[Douglas Hicks]

What determines the choice of an ELO head?  The sprinkler heads in the paint 
booth are 3/4” thread.  The height of the heads is 18 to 20’ above the floor.  
The blast booth next door has 1/2” thread, same height above the floor.  

Is the height a consideration?  At what height do we normally see the large 
orifice?  Or is the concern the amount of water for the fire?  Is the diameter 
of the water pattern the same as SR and QR heads. 

Are the water droplets larger than the standard response or quick response 
heads?  When I design a wet chem system for a resturant, I may use a nozzle 
with a large orifice so the chem gets through the heat plume to the fire.  If I 
use a small orifice nozzle, the chem may evaporate before reaching the fire.  
Is this the case with large orifice sprinklers? 

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10 year wet head testing

[Douglas Hicks]

What percentage of wet heads fail the UL 10 year test?  I have an account with 
head that were new in 1969.  They have not been tested or replaced yet.

This is a church with a kindergarten/day care in the basement. There are small 
classrooms with only 2 or 3 heads and some larger rooms with 10 heads. In 
addition, there are heads above and below dropped ceilings. What classifies 
different fire areas for sprinkler testing?  Each classroom with only 4 or 5 
heads?  Above and below the dropped ceiling?  
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Water damage from Sprinklers, again

[Douglas Hicks]

http://www.fireengineering.com/news/2014/02/11/fire-hurts-1-displaces-29-at-pleasantville-senior-complex.html

Water damage from a sprinkler system.  
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Re: Testing for Air Leaks in Dry Fire Sprinkler System

[Douglas Hicks]

Small dry system in a shop.  Is the shop air supply piped to the sprinkler 
system so as to fill the system after a trip test? If so, is the check valve 
leaking or is the isolation ball valve from the shop air completely closed?


-Original Message- 
From: Mike Cabral

Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 12:36 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Testing for Air Leaks in Dry Fire Sprinkler System

I would start with items that you can reach easily. The piping from the 
compressor to the system use soap type solution. The pressure relief valve 
on the trim is a low cost valve (cheep) cover it with a ballon and rubber 
band you will see it fill if leaking. Or just replace it. Same with the 
inspectors test outlet snug or repack packing gland. Check or snug all 
packing glands on the air side of the compressor.


Sounds like a small system so, if you can reach it easily just soap the 
joints you will find the leaks.


Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 12, 2014, at 1:44 PM, Roland Huggins  
wrote:


Sounds like he is not doing his NFPA 25 activities (one of which is a test 
to determine whether dry systems are leaking).


Roland

Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.   ---  Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
Dallas, TX
http://www.firesprinkler.org





On Feb 12, 2014, at 11:21 AM, James McHugh  
wrote:


Hi All,
A friend of mine has a busy (loud) automobile bay with a dry fire 
sprinkler system which is located near a highway.  He has complained that 
the compressor is running too often. I explained that usually means air 
leaks. He posed the question of what various ways can they detect air 
leaks. Can members of the forum reply with as many ways as possible?

Thanks
Jim McHugh
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Re: Testing for Air Leaks in Dry Fire Sprinkler System

[Douglas Hicks]

Tell us more about the colored smoke.  I have not heard of that before.

-Original Message- 
From: rongreenman .

Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 11:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Testing for Air Leaks in Dry Fire Sprinkler System

Drop the air and pump in colored smoke and you can see the leaks.


On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:21 AM, James McHugh 
wrote:



Hi All,
A friend of mine has a busy (loud) automobile bay with a dry fire
sprinkler system which is located near a highway.  He has complained that
the compressor is running too often. I explained that usually means air
leaks. He posed the question of what various ways can they detect air
leaks. Can members of the forum reply with as many ways as possible?
Thanks
Jim McHugh
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Butterfly valve, monitered or not?

[Douglas Hicks]

I am going to install a 4” butterfly valve on a sprinkler manifold.  This will 
give us an outlet to perform a Forward Flow.  Does the valve need to be 
monitored or will it be OK to use a chain to lock the valve in the closed 
position?   
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Re: Halon Disposal?

[Douglas Hicks]

http://www.remtec.net/

http://www.h3rcleanagents.com/buy_sell_halon.php?gclid=CJ_h8bvb-bwCFc5hfgod71kARQ

There may be others, but these are 2 that I know of.

-Original Message- 
From: Matt Grise

Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2014 12:08 PM
To: sprinklerfo...@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Halon Disposal?

I ran into a few tanks of Halon 1301 at a retrofit project. Is there anyone 
out there that buys or recycles halon? Not sure what to do with it.


Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
130 w 9th Ave.
North Kansas City, MO 64116

*Licensed in KS & MO

913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com

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Sprinkler Wrenches

[Douglas Hicks]

We have a job replacing sprinkler heads.  So I ordered the specified wrench, so 
we could change heads w/o damage to the new heads.  My guys changed 6 heads 
before the wrench wore out.  We have had the same problem with all the brands.  
What is the solution? The last wrench cost me $150.00, that is an additional 
cost of $25.00 per head.  I have been thinking of having the welding shop build 
up the wrench with hard face powder and then having the machine shop mill the 
wrench to the right size.  Any other options?
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dry head failure causes

[Douglas Hicks]

NFPA 25-2011 5.3.1.1.1.6 Dry sprinklers that have been in service for 10 years 
shall be replaced or representative samples shall be tested and then retested 
at 10 year intervals.  

Commentary states that at 10 years, 50% of the samples fail testing.  What is 
the failure referred to?  Does the heat element not work, is the plug at the 
end of the nipple stuck? I was asked today and I had to plead ignorance.  
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Re: Hibachi grills

[Douglas Hicks]

Someplace in the sprinkler code ( or maybe the mechanical code) sprinklers 
are not required under the hood because there is already a suppression 
system under the hood.  If sprinklers are in the plenum and the wet chemical 
is also in the plenum, the sprinklers will dilute the wet chem and the wet 
chem  will be ineffective.  Hood cleaners get nervous when they find 
sprinklers in the plenum.  If they hit a head and break the glass bulb, they 
really get nervous.  They cannot control that much water. A problem I have 
seen with sprinklers in the hood, is there is no way to test the flow switch 
to make sure the fuel  supply shuts off.  Of course you could get the 
inspector to pinch the bulb with pliers.


Anyway, sounds like you may have an inspector who does not know why UL 300 
was developed.


-Original Message- 
From: Steve Mackinnon

Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 11:49 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Hibachi grills

So I'm closer to that first drink of the weekend... nice :)

Steven MacKinnon
Fire Protection Division
Hartcorn Plumbing and Heating, Inc.
850 South Second Street
Ronkonkoma, NY 11779
Office 631-580-2300  Fax – 631-580-1090


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
On Behalf Of rongreenman .

Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 2:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Hibachi grills

Still morning here Steve.


On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Steve Mackinnon 
wrote:


Lol, love the comments on a Friday afternoon, thank you!!!

I think a call to the AHJ would help a lot and see if he'll except
this layout...

Thanks
Steven

Steven MacKinnon
Fire Protection Division
Hartcorn Plumbing and Heating, Inc.
850 South Second Street
Ronkonkoma, NY 11779
Office 631-580-2300  Fax – 631-580-1090


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman .
Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 2:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Hibachi grills

The plenum/duct interface is the most dangerous place in the
hood/plenum/duct assembly but it's a Class I Hood System
(combustible/flammable vapors) and so weld sealed along it's entire
length. Mechanical codes require that the duct be insulation wrapped
under certain circumstances (this is a Drucker  for sure, I've only
seen this wrapping in high-rise and within concealed spaces, but I
hesitate to say that's the "WHY" as I've never studied cod on this).
This sounds like you are required to either have sprinklers in the
plenum (which would necessitate a penetration--bad juju), or that they
want the area outside the duct/plenum interface protected for the
probably "happened once and we're damned sure not gonna have that
happen again" fire solution. The route of greasy vapors is collected
by the hood and then enters the hood duct system which is a separate
fire area until it encounters some sort of air scrubber or exits the
building (a minimum ten feet from any property line). I love cooking,
eating, cooking history, recipes, cooking fires, both controlled and
not, and cooking/restaurant fire protection. And a good shot of single
malt or a quality mezcal. That's a hint should any of you ever happen
to be where I am and there's a bar close by }:-P



On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 11:16 AM, Steve Mackinnon

wrote:

> Thank you Ron.
> The exhaust duct reduces to a third of its size within the plenum
> (above the grill hood), and the mechanical code is locating the
> upright heads outside of the duct in the cavity created by the
> reduction. These upright heads will be ineffective controlling a
> fire as
they are strangely located.
> I get the feeling that the mechanical code is looking for that last
> ditch effect to put water on an uncontrollable fire...
>
> Thank you
> Steven
>
> Steven MacKinnon
> Fire Protection Division
> Hartcorn Plumbing and Heating, Inc.
> 850 South Second Street
> Ronkonkoma, NY 11779
> Office 631-580-2300  Fax – 631-580-1090
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:
> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
rongreenman .
> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2014 2:03 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Re: Hibachi grills
>
> There's provision for sprinklers (and has always been as far back as
> I
> go) for sprinklers in hoods. This is an alternative to CO2, or wet
> or dry chem, or any other acceptable protection method for
> commercial
cooking hoods.
> Look at 13-10.Figure A.7.10.2. FYI: a hibachi in Japan is a box with
> charcoal that's placed under the table (think table at floor level
> with a hole under it for your feet and legs) that is then covered
> with a quilt that also covers the diners' legs and is used to keep
> the lower extremities warm during mealtimes on cold days (think
> paper walls and no heating system with snow outside). That morphed
> into a small table top grill simila

difference in grooved fittings

[Douglas Hicks]

What is the difference in the grooved fittings we use in fire sprinklers and 
the grooved fittings used in other  water piping?  I know that the material 
used in the gasket can be different for different fluids, i.e. water and oil.   
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Re: Cooler Calc

[Douglas Hicks]

Can this 38°F cooler be made into a freezer?  What would that do to this 
discussion? 


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book report

[Douglas Hicks]

In 2011, I purchased the 13-2010 and the 25-2011.  Not cheap, but worth every 
penny.  I used the 13-2011 so much, the binding is coming apart.

Last month, I ordered the 13-2013 and the 25-2014 as a set.  Mr. Klaus has done 
an even better job with the current edition.  25-14 has more color pictures, ( 
I like pictures) and the explanatory comments are in greater detail.  There are 
more diagrams than before. The current 25-2014 has 679 pages compared to the 
447 pages in 25-11.  I have already used 2 packets of Post It Tabs flagging 
areas where we can do a better job of inspecting our customers sprinkler 
systems, and selling our services.  

Both books, hard bound were about $200.00, + shipping.  

The only failing, if the books came in a 3 ring binder, I could add some of the 
information I get here to the books.  

Miss Brooks, I am finished. Can I go home now and ride my Road King this 
afternoon?
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copper pipe vs CPVC

[Douglas Hicks]

One of our group homes has leaking copper pipe.  The owner told me their 
experience is to replace the copper with CPVC.  I like that, faster and easier 
for us.  But, do I need to get the system re-engineered when changing to CPVC?  
Can I just replace size for like size?  

The system is 20+ years old so I am going to propose new sprinklers.  Besides, 
some of the heads are corroded and some have paint on them.  
We will also provide a means to test the antifreeze, at present there is no way 
to test the solution.  

I  am going to exclude sheet rock and painting from the job. 

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
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Re: copper pipe vs. CPVC

[Douglas Hicks]

What damage does glycol do to CPVC?  And is the damage visible?  Cracks, 
pitting or does it fail all at once, leading to extensive water damage? 
There is a sign stating the attic has plastic pipe. Can I flush the system 
with water several times, and then fill it with  glycerin?


Part of the attic is flat, with insulation batts on top of the plastic pipe. 
Those areas can be tented with sheet plastic and the batts layed over the 
pipe.   Part of the attic has a cathedral ceiling, with the pipe  hidden in 
the joist spaces, I do not know if it is 2 x 4  or 4 x 6 rafters.  I suppose 
using spray foam insulation on top of the plastic pipe is a violation of the 
listing.  Can I use pink or blue solid insulation?


-Original Message- 
From: Rod DiBona

Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 12:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: copper pipe vs CPVC

Better verify it is glycerin


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


 Original message 
From: Douglas Hicks
Date:08/08/2014 2:40 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: copper pipe vs CPVC

One of our group homes has leaking copper pipe.  The owner told me their 
experience is to replace the copper with CPVC.  I like that, faster and 
easier for us.  But, do I need to get the system re-engineered when changing 
to CPVC?  Can I just replace size for like size?


The system is 20+ years old so I am going to propose new sprinklers. 
Besides, some of the heads are corroded and some have paint on them.
We will also provide a means to test the antifreeze, at present there is no 
way to test the solution.


I  am going to exclude sheet rock and painting from the job.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
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Re: copper pipe vs. CPVC

[Douglas Hicks]

The copper is at least 20 years old. I can see 3 places in the riser room , 
where there are  leak patterns on the ceiling. The system control valve is 
open. The pressure gauge is holding at 60 PSI, and the leak patterns are 
dry.  The leak seems to have stopped by itself, but I expect it  to open 
again later.
That will give me time to figure what is needed and how to accomplish the 
goal of having a sprinkler system that will protect the occupants of the 
house.


The owners of the property have approximately 85 or 90 group homes, most of 
which have sprinkler systems.  They have had problems with the copper piping 
and tried to fix only the leaks.  Their experience has been it is less 
expensive to replace the copper with CPVC.  As to their awareness of 
problems with antifreeze, that is a question I have not addressed with them. 
Nor have I talked to the city FM or the State FM about this building.


I like to have some solutions before I go to the AHJ.

We service about 16 of these group homes, 8 have problems with the sprinkler 
systems.  Finally, we may be allowed to do repairs, and upgrades.
-Original Message- 
From: mphe...@aerofire.com

Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2014 6:49 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: copper pipe vs. CPVC

After watching this thread for a week and thinking about all the collateral 
issues with plastic, my next step would be to go back to the owner and 
question their motivation for the copper to plastic recommendation. It may 
on the surface appear cheaper to just change copper to plastic, but properly 
addressing all the issues associated with plastic may swing the deal back in 
favor of repairing the leaks in the copper system. How old is the system? 
Where is it leaking?  How many leaks? Is there an obvious cause for the 
leaks?  Questions are cheap.

Mark at Aero
Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org 


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Re: copper pipe vs CPVC

[Douglas Hicks]

The customer wants the copper replaced with CPVC


-Original Message- 
From: Duane Johnson

Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 5:17 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: copper pipe vs CPVC

Your statement earlier holds true only if portions of the system are being 
replaced. I was under the assumption the entire system was being replaced, 
in which increasing diameter will not be more demanding.


And yes, there is more to calcs...

Duane

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
On Behalf Of Matthew Willis

Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 7:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: copper pipe vs CPVC

There is more to a calc than just pressure. Flow is also part. Why do you 
think we are required to pick the sprinkler closer to the main on a tree 
calc?

R/
Matt
On Aug 11, 2014 7:23 AM, "Duane Johnson" 
wrote:


No, no, no.  As long as you are increasing the ID along the primary
path, you are not making the calc more demanding. Increasing the ID
reduces the friction loss per ft. and reduces the overall required
pressure of the system.

Duane



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Re: Shadowed area behind built in cabinet and in widow sill

[Douglas Hicks]

You will find the same message in the other NFPA Standards, 10, 72 17, 17A. 
It is part of the drive to bring conformity to NFPA standards.


-Original Message- 
From: rfletc...@aerofire.com

Sent: Monday, October 06, 2014 7:33 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Shadowed area behind built in cabinet and in widow sill

1.7 New Technology "Nothing in this standard shall be intended to restrict 
new technologies or alternate arrangements"... Based on the recently 
discussed conservative committee actions I would think that anything in the 
later editions of 13 should be allowed as an "alternate arrangement".  Say 
something in 2002 edition that was later proved to be wrong through full 
scale testing. Would you force a licensed contractor to install it wrong 
because the AHJ hasn't adopted the standard with the new data with the 
corrections? Or as a licensed contractor would you knowingly install 
something that has been proven to be wrong by today's standards because it 
was okay in the 2002 editionRon F


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E.

Sent: Monday, October 06, 2014 6:50 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Shadowed area behind built in cabinet and in widow sill

There are two lines of reasoning I have seen on matters such as this:
1."We aren't following the newer NFPA 13 - period."
2."The newer standard may have what the NFPA committee believes to be the 
best criteria, but the ICC and our local codes folks have not weighed in on 
the changes to the standard. Therefore, we cannot accept those 
'clarifications.'


WE may KNOW that the changes won't affect the future code revisions; but the 
AHJ doesn't know and most times won't take the chance.


Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection 
Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | 
http://www.kfiengineers.com


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
On Behalf Of svang...@aerofire.com

Sent: Friday, October 03, 2014 7:02 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Shadowed area behind built in cabinet and in widow sill

We are bound to NFPA 13 (2002).  We have an ECHSW above the door in a room. 
On the opposite wall is a window and sill that does not create an additional 
floor area.  There is a built in cabinet that partially obstructs the window 
sill and creates a shadow of 2 sq.ft. between the cabinet and the window 
over the window sill.  We informed the AHJ that per NFPA 13 (2007) 8.5.3.2.4 
sprinklers are spaced to walls and not windows if they do not create 
additional floor area.  We also pointed to NFPA 13 (2013) 8.1.1(3) & 
A.8.1.1(3) which indicate shadow areas are acceptable so long as the other 
obstruction guidelines are followed.  The AHJ stated they cannot accept the 
newer standard clarifications on this issue.


Is there something I am missing in NFPA 13 (2002) that states this design is 
acceptable?


 Thanks,

Sean




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Re: plain end fittings

[Douglas Hicks]

Are they listed for dry systems or wet systems only?  I have used them on 
wet systems, and had no problems.  I have found when using them in finished 
ceilings, a ratchet strap pulls the fittings together.


-Original Message- 
From: Dewayne Martinez

Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 8:54 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: plain end fittings

Wardlox
http://wardfittings.com/Assets/Content/Wardlox%20Sell%20Sheet.pdf

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd
- Work
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 10:01 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: plain end fittings

Does anyone make a listed plain end fitting for 1-1/2" pipe? I am working
on a retrofit where we have to deal with some 1-1/2" pipe that is
connected to a main that is partially buried in a wall.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com
860-535-2080 (ofc)
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No hydraulic name plate, no existing plans

[Douglas Hicks]

I have been asked to extend sprinkler coverage to an addition, 17.5’ long x 13’ 
across.  The ceiling is a cathedral ceiling, 13’ 2” at the ceiling and 9’ 3 “ 
high at the sidewall.  The existing sprinkler piping is behind the 13’ wall, 
pointing down the 17.5’ length.  No body can find plans from the original 
construction, there is not a hydraulic nameplate on the sprinkler system.  The 
Fire Chief remembers that during construction, the water supply was 
“questionable”.There is not a forward flow port so  I can not get a water 
GPM/psi measurement.  There is a 1.5 “ FDC at the front of the building. There 
is a fire hydrant across the parking lot, about 75 feet away.  The 5 year 
average for the static pressure is 34 psi and the residual is 27 psi, through 
the main drain.  

The building is about 13 years old and is a retirement home.  

My concern is the lack of information about the water supply.  The building is 
on a hill, about the level of the municipal water tank, which is on another 
hill.   

Can I get an accurate reading on the water supply from the fire hydrant, or the 
2” main drain?  Or should I put a Forward Flow test port in before doing 
anything else?  And if I do get a good water reading, I still will not know 
what the system demand is.  So then do I need to hire someone to crawl the 
attic and take measurements of the piping?  

 


   
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Re: No hydraulic name plate, no existing plans

[Douglas Hicks]

Response time

Jeff, most of the systems we service do not have hydraulic signs.  Makes 
getting adequate forward flow rates difficult. I have yet to see a sprinkler 
system with provision to test FF, not one.


Todd, the building  was built in 1999, probably not PS
There is a gauge on the riser, just before the backflow device.
I can get the hydrant flow using my Akron Brass flow tester.

Forest, I am trying to get all the info I need before I see the building 
official.
-Original Message- 
From: Jeff Bridges

Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 2:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: No hydraulic name plate, no existing plans

13 years old I highly doubt this is PS system and surprise! A missing 
Placard!

The 1.5" FDC means it's more than likely 13R
You have horrible pressure which I'm sure you are aware
Flow the hydrant & get the water supply info.  Map out the existing pipe 
(crawl the attic space) and determine the hydraulics.

All would need to be done anyways to calculate your added space.




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
On Behalf Of Todd - Work

Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2014 2:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: No hydraulic name plate, no existing plans

You can get an accurate flow test from the hydrant(s). If you need to, you 
can use a gauge on the riser ahead of any check valves for a pressure 
reading. Nothing else will give you an accurate reading.


Is the existing system pipe schedule? If so, you would need to do an 
analysis based on the water supply requirements for PS systems in 13. If it 
is PS, you can size the piping in the addition based on PS as long as PS is 
maintained throughout the total system.


If you have a PS system and cannot meet the PS water supply requirements, 
then you have to discuss remedies with the owner and AHJ.


Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com
860-535-2080 (ofc)


On Nov 5, 2014, at 4:21 PM, Forest Wilson  wrote:

Doesn't the AHJ tell you what you need to submit for a permit?
You'll have to calculate the addition.
Also, you can't get an accurate measurement of water supply from the 2" 
main drain. There have been formula's out there with different methods but 
they are not accepted as true.




On 11/5/2014 4:16 PM, Douglas Hicks wrote:
I have been asked to extend sprinkler coverage to an addition, 17.5’ long 
x 13’ across.  The ceiling is a cathedral ceiling, 13’ 2” at the ceiling 
and 9’ 3 “ high at the sidewall.  The existing sprinkler piping is behind 
the 13’ wall, pointing down the 17.5’ length.  No body can find plans 
from the original construction, there is not a hydraulic nameplate on the 
sprinkler system.  The Fire Chief remembers that during construction, the 
water supply was “questionable”.There is not a forward flow port so 
I can not get a water GPM/psi measurement.  There is a 1.5 “ FDC at the 
front of the building. There is a fire hydrant across the parking lot, 
about 75 feet away.  The 5 year average for the static pressure is 34 psi 
and the residual is 27 psi, through the main drain.


The building is about 13 years old and is a retirement home.

My concern is the lack of information about the water supply.  The 
building is on a hill, about the level of the municipal water tank, which 
is on another hill.


Can I get an accurate reading on the water supply from the fire hydrant, 
or the 2” main drain?  Or should I put a Forward Flow test port in before 
doing anything else?  And if I do get a good water reading, I still will 
not know what the system demand is.  So then do I need to hire someone to 
crawl the attic and take measurements of the piping?




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vacuums

[Douglas Hicks]

   
  We just got a job replacing 400 sprinkler heads. The time has come to get 
a vacuum/pumpout  to drain sprinkler systems. I have been looking at the 
Dropmaster and Dual Vac.  Which one works better?  One of the claims of 
Dropmaster is 
*Manufacturers of grooved couplings recommend not exceeding 10” Hg vacuum on a 
sprinkler line. Dropmaster is the only tool that will hold that margin of 
safety recommended by the grooved coupling manufacturers, ensuring that the 10” 
Hg vacuum is not exceeded.  

Is the 10” of vacuum important?  
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Re: vacuums

[Douglas Hicks]

James, your phone number is missing a digit.  Or you can try me at 
541.377.1143


-Original Message- 
From: James McHugh

Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 4:53 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org ; sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: vacuums

Hi Doug,
Give me call on my cell if you get chance to dicsuss the Vac systems. My 
cell 61-721-1853

Jim McHugh



From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org on behalf of Douglas Hicks
Sent: Sat 3/17/2012 2:01 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: vacuums




 We just got a job replacing 400 sprinkler heads. The time has come to 
get a vacuum/pumpout  to drain sprinkler systems. I have been looking at the 
Dropmaster and Dual Vac.  Which one works better?  One of the claims of 
Dropmaster is
*Manufacturers of grooved couplings recommend not exceeding 10" Hg vacuum on 
a sprinkler line. Dropmaster is the only tool that will hold that margin of 
safety recommended by the grooved coupling manufacturers, ensuring that the 
10" Hg vacuum is not exceeded.


Is the 10" of vacuum important?
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FM 74 Egress Sprinklre system?

[Douglas Hicks]

I am looking at 2 schools that have partial sprinkler systems, protecting the 
egress routes only.  The local Fire Marshal thinks they may be installed to 
FM74 standards.  The 2 that I have seen are wet systems, 1/2 inch drops to the 
heads, 1/2 garden hose fitting as an inspector’s test. The heads are pendant, 
and uprights,  as far  as 2 feet from the ceiling. Some of the heads are 
leaking, some of the heads look to be oriented improperly. No one seems to know 
what the year of installation was.  Is/was there a standard for that type of 
sprinkler system?
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Vermiculite insulation

[Douglas Hicks]

Next week we are replacing some dry heads. The attic is insulated with 
vermiculite insulation, some of which is 12” deep.  How do we keep the 
vermiculite from escaping to the floor below when we remove the heads?  This is 
a hospital, so we are trying to keep the work are clean.  

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Re: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

[Douglas Hicks]

To hijack part of George's fine hi jack.  I was at my first sprinkler class 
given by NFPA in Seattle.  The fire alarm went off.  Of all the AHJ's, 
contractor's, designer's, engineer's, only 1 or 2 left immediately.  An 
announcement was made from the podium and the rest of us left.  When the all 
clear was sounded, a person who had immediately left went to great detail to 
tell how disappointed he was that the rest of us sat in our chairs like 
fools.  He was right, we were fools.


-Original Message- 
From: George Church

Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 11:05 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

In our specialty freezer systems, we have less than 30 seconds to bring the 
four most remote sprinklers up to their operating pressure. Once they catch 
fire, the commodities in a freezer- and the freezer itself, depending on 
integrity of sheathing and interior insulation components, burn quite well. 
It would be tough to expect we'd be able to meet this performance-based 
design criteria with a manual system, BTW we've got trip time on the 
preaction valve down below 4 seconds.


Thom is fine, he routinely calls/emails to check my output. Its still 
strong.


I'll tell you why I don't trust manual systems. On the eve of 9/11 my wife 
and I were finishing up dinner at about 10 PM when the FA sounded. Now you'd 
think on this particularly day, we'd have the most awesome awareness of 
death and destruction, and maybe it would sink into people's heads that if 
you understand there could be a fire, it might be a good idea TO GET THE 
HECK OUT OF THE BUILDING!!! (or as Roland puts it, RUN LIKE HELL!!!)


Nope, we were the ONLY people to get up and walk out. Further, we were 
alone, from what we could see, in the area surrounding the hotel tower that 
was atop the restaurant. Granted, the resort was about empty since the 
incoming AFSA convention had been cancelled- or was about to be, not many 
had shown up when transportation became difficult-but nobody reacted except 
us and the maintenance dude we saw running one way, walking briskly another 
way, and when we settled down to a plain old walk we returned to our table 
and finished up, shaking our heads. It was tempting to discuss the situation 
with the other diners, but somehow, I refrained from frustrating my spouse 
and self.  It taught me that you can NEVER rely on anyone doing anything 
when an alarm or light or electric shock is presented as a stimulus.


I might relent and allow a cold-weather valve.maybe. Don't think I've 
ever designed one into a system in 37+ years.


I wonder if any of the fitters screwed up and pointed what had to be an 
obviously pendent hole toward the deck by mistake? That was way before even 
NASFCA.



George L.  Church, Jr., CET
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842
877-324-ROWE   570-837-6335 fax
g...@rowesprinkler.com


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of 
bcasterl...@fsc-inc.com

Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2012 4:59 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: History Lesson - Spray Sprinklers become the Standard

Fascinating stuff! The very first sprinkler had a pendent orientation- it 
was a hole in the bottom of a pipe ;). It might be that the value of a 
simple manual system is over-looked these days. (especially freezers where 
you have what, 3 or 4 days b4 the combustible even thaws out?)




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certified gauges

[Douglas Hicks]

We replace gauges every 5 years.  I have replaced the gauge and put the old 
gauge in the test port and compared readings.  The readings have always been 
the same.  I can reduce my inventory by purchasing certifed gauges and 
comparing the readings.  If I do this, should we install the certified gauge in 
the test port at the start of the inspection/test and remove the gauge only at 
the end of inspection?  

So, where do I get certified gauges?  
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Re: certified gauges

[Douglas Hicks]

I tried to do the Google earlier, and did not come up with local info.  I 
did the Google again, but this time I  added "as per Steve Leyton".   That 
got results!  I ordered 3 gauges, with calibration.  I will keep them in 
their own toolbox and keep the calibration papers also.


Thanks

-Original Message- 
From: Steve Leyton

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:48 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: certified gauges

You can purchase calibration equipment and do it in-house (expensive,
but pays over time if you have high-volume biz that regularly requires
calibration of gauges), you can send your gauges to a lab; you can hire
a mobile service.

Dude, it's 2012:  Google the key words "Pressure gauge calibration (your
city name)"


Steve Leyton




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Douglas
Hicks
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 10:28 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: certified gauges

We replace gauges every 5 years.  I have replaced the gauge and put the
old gauge in the test port and compared readings.  The readings have
always been the same.  I can reduce my inventory by purchasing certifed
gauges and comparing the readings.  If I do this, should we install the
certified gauge in the test port at the start of the inspection/test and
remove the gauge only at the end of inspection?

So, where do I get certified gauges?
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Hydraulic calcs for back-flow devices;

[Douglas Hicks]

We did a forward flow in a nursing home.  Our reading was 13 PSI with a 2.25 
inch straight nozzle. According to the chart that was supplied with the tester, 
that should give 536 gpm.  According to the State of Oregon FM, that is not 
enough flow, less than the 500 GPM required.   There are 2 back-flow devices 
for the sprinkler system.  One device works, the other does not.  How much 
improvement would we get by removing the non operational back flow device?  
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Re: 3/4" Pipe and Sprigs

[Douglas Hicks]

Especially since not all jurisdictions have adopted the same edition of the 
standards.  Oregon has adopted NFPA 13-2010, except for federally funded 
facilities.  Hospitals and nursing homes use NFPA 13-1999, because the Fed 
standard is NFPA 101-2000, which references 13-1999


-Original Message- 
From: Ron Greenman

Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 7:01 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: 3/4" Pipe and Sprigs

Not on your case particularly Duane, but I wish people here would reference
the edition they are quoting from. Two (10), three ('10), or four (2010)
more key strokes shouldn't kill anyone.

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Re: wax coated - quick response sprinkler

[Douglas Hicks]

We have used both wax and poly coated.  The poly coating did not rub off 
like the was coating did.  I ordered escutcheons with the heads.  I also 
ordered new wrenches with both types of coatings.  One wrench for me and one 
the the head box.


-Original Message- 
From: Matthew J. Willis

Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 11:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: wax coated - quick response sprinkler

Check with the Manf. One I used offered poly coated as standard. The problem
you are going to run into is the esch. They are not coated, and are listed
only with their respective manf. (semi-recessed of course).

R/
Matt

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Larrimer,
Peter A (CEOSH)
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 10:58 AM
To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'
Subject: wax coated - quick response sprinkler

Most learned forum.

Can anyone tell me if there is a wax coated - quick response sprinkler on
the market?  I have a facility looking for one for a swimming pool
application.

Thanks

Pete Larrimer
Dept of VA


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Re: Sprinklers in crawl spaces

[Douglas Hicks]

One of the Adult Living Facilities we service has a mechanical room in the 
daylight basement.  There is a door going into the  crawl space.  The crawl 
space is not protected with smokes, heats or sprinklers.  But now there is a 
sign "No Storage Permitted" I always look to make sure there is no storage 
on the other side of the door.


Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co
-Original Message- 
From: Rod DiBona

Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:19 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Sprinklers in crawl spaces

I believe that the crawl space does meet the intent as long as it meets the 
requirements on that section. I am going by memory but I believe that there 
can't be any storage or fuel fired equipment and maybe a couple of others. 
One key to this is that I believe that the space above then has to use a 
3,000 ft calc area. I think the 2013 is going to minimum of 8 heads (AFSA 
convention) in lieu of the 3,000 but for now it is 3,000.


Rod at Rapid

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Smith, Steven 
D. (CSFD)

Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 11:08 AM
To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org'
Subject: FW: Sprinklers in crawl spaces

Anyone have any insight on this?




We have an old commercial building that was previously not sprinkled that is 
going through a change in occupancy classification and is now retrofitting 
sprinklers.  This building has a very large crawl space with masonry walls 
and a dirt floor.  The floor assembly is combustible solid wood joist with a 
wood sub-floor. In looking in NFPA 13 (2010 Edition), there are two possible 
options in defining this space and determining if sprinklers are required. 
The first section is 8.15.1 for concealed spaces - in reviewing all the 
possible scenarios in this section I don't see where sprinklers can be 
omitted.  The second section is 8.15.6 for Spaces under ground floors, 
exterior docks, and platforms.  The question I have for the group is does 
"spaces under ground floors" meet the intent of a crawl space?  If not how 
would you define a space under a ground floor, and how are this different 
from a crawl space. If  section 8.15.6 is appropriate then it does allow for 
the omission of sp

rinklers.

I'd really like to know how other have addressed this situation.

Kris Cooper
Colorado Springs Fire Department
kcoo...@springsgov.com


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Re: Interesting Question

[Douglas Hicks]

Not a sprinkler system, but there was a case involving a restaurant in 
Boston.  The suppression system was a dry chem system. There may have been 
appliance changes, but I do not remember.  I do remember several suppression 
system companies serviced the system once and declined to service it again, 
because it did not meet UL 300.  The FM also wrote the restaurant up for not 
meeting local codes.  The fire in 2005 leveled the building, the insurance 
paid $15,000.00 immediately.  After becoming aware of the system 
deficiencies, the insurance declined to pay any more.  After 5 or 6 years of 
litigation, the Judge determined the owner was at fault and the insurance 
company was not liable for the claim and was to be repaid the $15,000.00.


-Original Message- 
From: Frank Herrick

Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:56 AM
To: 
Subject: Re: Interesting Question

Hopefully not !! ,

Your insurance rates are calculated on a properly installed and maintained 
sprinkler system. My question is: Where was the local fire department when 
this building had it's annual inspection, and did the FPC notify the AHJ 
that the system had failed, as required by most fire codes?


Accidents are a chain of failures, if all this is true, there is a lot of 
shared blame between all the parties involved.


If the insurance company did pay on this claim, I'd bet it was just a few 
cents on the dollar.




















My opinion only..

Capt. Frank J. Herrick
City of Leawood Fire Department
(Phone)  913-681-6788 x 26
(Fax). 913-681- 2399


On Nov 21, 2012, at 9:24, Bill Shipman  wrote:


A client posed an interesting question.
(1) Assume that your sprinklers were required by code.
(2) Your Insurance rate was based upon being fully sprinklered.
(3) Your system hadn't been inspected or properly maintained in several 
years.

(4) You have a fire and the building & contents are a total loss.

Would your insurance pay?
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Re: man-traps

[Douglas Hicks]

Matt, I thought the term "man-trap" reffered to the famale of the species. 
Some of the "man-traps" I have known did have warning devices.  Too bad I 
ignored the warning devices.


-Original Message- 
From: Matthew J. Willis

Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 5:04 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: man-traps

Hell, I'm interested in learning why something called a "Man-Trap" has no
sprinklers or warning devices


R/
Matt

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Low Air Switch

[Douglas Hicks]

On March 11, I got a call to investigate a low air signal.  I arrived on scene 
and found the water pressure at 225 pounds, air at 52 pounds.  The FACP showed 
normal.  I shut the main control valves off. I opened the main drain to relieve 
the water pressure, leaving the valve open 2 or 3 turns. I opened the priming 
water drain and got only air.  I opened the condensation drain and let the air 
bleed to 30 PSI.  I let the riser mount compressor build to 47 PSI, where the 
compressor shut off. I opened the butterfly valves, the water pressure was at 
80 PSI.  The compressor kicked on and shut off twice, in rapid sequence.   

The system is at the end of the city water line and at a low point. In 
September, the water pressure was 70 PSI, the air was 45 PSI.  The gauges were 
replaced or compared with certified gauges in September.  There is no backflow 
or pressure reducing valve on the system.  I have not contacted the water 
department to ask if there have been any pressure bumps.  But, another account 
a few blocks away did not show the 225 water PSI on their wet system.  We 
service 100% (all 3 ) of the sprinkler systems in the community.  

Any suggestions?  

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Obstruction test

[Douglas Hicks]

We have done a few obstruction tests.  At times we have made the hose 
connection in the attic, putting a 1/4 turn ball valve on the pipe, then using 
a 1” forestry  hose to get the water outside.  At other times we remove a 
sprinkler head from the ceiling and then putting 1/4 turn ball valve in place 
of the sprinkler head.   We have had to remove the hose, open the valve and use 
a screwdriver or wire to break up the rust that obstructs the valve.  We use a 
1” forestry hose, 25 ‘ lengths, at that seems to get us to a door or window to 
get the water outside.  If 25’ is not enough, it is easy to add a length or two 
to get outside.  I have used 1.5” hose, but it is more difficult to use in the 
attic.

Are we going to get enough flow and velocity to move rust and scale out of the 
pipes?  We see more 1”, 1.25” and 1.5 “ plugged pipes than 2” and above.  But 
it is sometimes hard to hold  hose connected to a 2” pipe.  
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Moving building

[Douglas Hicks]

An account is moving a pre-fab building.  The occupancy is classrooms and 
office space.  They want us to disconnect and connect the sprinkler piping in 
the attic.  But, as I am considering this, I keep coming up with more concerns. 
 Some of which, in not particular order,  are:
1. They will need to have a FPE run the supply calcs for the new location. 
2. The standard will be NFPA 13-2013, which will require a pit, an FDC, 
backflow devices, and a way to perform a Full Flow Test.  I think I should have 
someone experienced in underground do all that.  
3. The present water supply comes into the building from the floor.  Should we 
disconnect and remove the riser to protect it from damage during transport? 
4. The area has a history of water deposits in piping.  When we lived in that 
town, I would reverse flush the potable water lines using air.  I was  amazed 
at the debris that came out of the water piping. As a result, I never had the 
low water pressure my neighbors had, nor did I need to replace the piping.   I 
think the sprinkler piping should be flushed prior to shutting off the water 
and draining the piping. 
5. After the building is in place, the piping will need to be assembled.  I do 
not know if the attic piping is steel or plastic, I expect plastic.  Whatever 
the material, I think a hydro-test is a good idea. 

Any other suggestions?  
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Re: Moving building

[Douglas Hicks]

The sprinkler system was installed on-site, after the building was set-up.

-Original Message- 
From: Todd - Work

Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2013 5:26 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Moving building

but would branch lines need to be braced as well? the potential swaying 
motion in a move i would think would be greater than motion due to 
earthquakes


Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com

On May 25, 2013, at 11:46 PM, Ron Greenman  wrote:


Whether or not the system would sway during moving would be dependent on
how it's currently installed. If in earthquake country it wouldn't sway
since it would be braced against seismic events. Pre-fabs are designed to
be moved so swaying is minimized by sway bracing or hung in such a way as
to compensate.


On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 8:35 PM, David Canham  wrote:


They put the sprinklers in off site for manufactured buildings all the
time, is this that different? All the other trades get installed before
shipping as well.   I was doing some work for a company a whole back that
built all the building in there factory and they had sprinklers installed
during fabrication then shipped the units to the site for final assembly.
They connected piping from one module to the next in the field. It seemed
to work fine. All calculations were done based on the local supply.
Plumbing and gas was done the same way. Drop it on the foundation and
connect the utilities.

David Canham
Fire Systems Solutions

Sent from my iPhone

On May 25, 2013, at 4:57 PM, Todd - Work  wrote:


In addition to those, my concern would be that if the pipe is suspended

from the structure, it will probably sway back and forth during the move
and could possibly damage heads or pipe.


Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
www.fpdc.com

On May 25, 2013, at 12:54 PM, "Douglas Hicks"  wrote:


 An account is moving a pre-fab building.  The occupancy is classrooms

and office space.  They want us to disconnect and connect the sprinkler
piping in the attic.  But, as I am considering this, I keep coming up 
with

more concerns.  Some of which, in not particular order,  are:

1. They will need to have a FPE run the supply calcs for the new

location.

2. The standard will be NFPA 13-2013, which will require a pit, an FDC,
backflow devices, and a way to perform a Full Flow Test.  I think I 
should

have someone experienced in underground do all that.

3. The present water supply comes into the building from the floor.
Should we disconnect and remove the riser to protect it from damage 
during

transport?

4. The area has a history of water deposits in piping.  When we lived

in that town, I would reverse flush the potable water lines using air.  I
was  amazed at the debris that came out of the water piping. As a result, 
I

never had the low water pressure my neighbors had, nor did I need to
replace the piping.   I think the sprinkler piping should be flushed 
prior

to shutting off the water and draining the piping.

5. After the building is in place, the piping will need to be
assembled.  I do not know if the attic piping is steel or plastic, I 
expect

plastic.  Whatever the material, I think a hydro-test is a good idea.


Any other suggestions?
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis 
Bacon,

essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)
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Re: Lighter NFPA 13

[Douglas Hicks]

Not to date myself, but the first firefighting I saw was a bucket brigade, 
starting at the ditch.  I don't know how to figure friction loss, but by the 
time the bucket got to the fire, it was almost empty.


-Original Message- 
From: Ron Greenman

Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2013 8:17 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Lighter NFPA 13


or a stack of buckets by the well (an actual viable, and proven, strategy
in a low tech, low relative wealth situation).


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Forward flow test results

[Douglas Hicks]

We a forward flow at a church last week.  When we did the  main drain flow test 
we got 30 PSI.   We tested through a single snoot FDC, with the FDC check valve 
turned around, the clapper valve was not removed. 
#1  forward flow test with 1.5” nozzle.  We got 24 PSI, 337 GPM
#2 forward flow test with 2” nozzle, 16 PSI and 493 GPM
# 3 forward flow test with 2.25” nozzle, 12 PSI and 536 GPM
The above results were with a straight fixed nozzle

The hydraulic name plate 
Design Density .10 GPM
Area of operation 917 Sq Ft (the sprinkler protects the basement, which houses 
a day care, 2 bathrooms, janitor closet, mechanical room, elevator room, and a 
hallway. 
System demand at bottom of riser 242.8 GPM at 59.95 PSI
Water supply flow test, 84 PSI static, 70 PSI residual flowing 981 GPM


The water flow comes through the wall, 6 inches off the floor, makes a 90°, up 
through the backflow device, through the 2.5 inch alarm check valve, 3 more 90° 
to the single snoot FDC. Then through the wall and our flow tester.  The water 
was clean after 1 minute.  We did not do a comparison with a certified gauge, 
nor did we replace the gauges on the wet pipe. 

The chart is supplied with the flow tester. 

Do these results look legitimate?  A larger nozzle = more GPM and less PSI?
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Re: George L. Church, Jr.

[Douglas Hicks]

Arguing with St Peter? I think it is more likely he is contemplating why 
Hell is not sprinklered.  Satan best be forewarned.


-Original Message- 
From: David Autry

Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 9:27 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: George L. Church, Jr.

"standing at the Pearly Gates arguing with St. Peter about why they are
not self-closing!"

AMEN to that.


RIP and God speed George L. Church, Jr.


David Autry

Meininger Fire Protection Inc.
2521 W L St. Suite No.4
Lincoln, Ne 68522
Voice (402) 466-2616
Fax (402) 466-2617
da...@mfp-inc.com

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
mphe...@aerofire.com
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:22 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: George L. Church, Jr.

AMEN Duane! Whether you knew him for a minute or a lifetime, if you knew
George L. Church, Jr. you'd know, he is right now... standing at the
Pearly Gates arguing with St.  Peter about why they are not self-closing!
Mark at Aero


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of
Johnson, Duane (NIH/OD/ORS) [C]
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 8:30 AM
To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org'
Subject: RE: George L. Church, Jr.

Like many, I only met him once, but will never forget him.

In memory of glc (from a few archives):

" I'm not a FPE but I can see water spray in front of my nose"
" As I'm reminded often, its not what you know... it's what you can prove,
which may be a lot more difficult."
" That and about $75, would be the difference"
" Now we'll limit that to lazy."
" I may have learned something!"
" If it is in YOUR best interests to have em trained, and they aren't
being trained, then its YOUR job to train them. Now, if you're butting
heads with a badge-heavy moron, I'd suggest forget the training and go
over his head."
" If he doesn't get it, send him a link to water supply school at the
Academy or one of the Associations."
" tell them they need to keep walls a minimum of 6" off the heads"
" Another benefit is knowing how to gently stop folks from doing something
stupid."
"That's a lotta truckloads of fertilizer"
" If I'd known how much time it was going to take, I may have declined,
but now I wouldn't have missed it- great group of people"
" A FIRE-SAFE Christmas to all, and if you don't have sprinklers, don't
have candles."
"That, my friend, is the type of negligence that pierces the corporate
veil and puts you where you belong."
"Believe me, if I had a reason to bitch, I would. I don't."
" Hopefully I positively influenced some change here or there. Improved at
least the way some people do things, or at least got them thinking."
" There are instances on this Forum where advice is given to run in
opposite directions. In either direction you run, follow Roland's advice"

" I'd like to thank Steve and the gang for again presenting us with a
memorable experience that combined fun with a ton of educational
offerings."



Duane Johnson, PE
Program Manager
Division of the Fire Marshal (Contractor) Office of Research Services
National Institutes of Health
301-496-0487

"Protecting Science - One Sprinkler at a Time"

-Original Message-
From: Ken Holsopple [mailto:k...@rowesprinkler.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:10 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: George L. Church, Jr.

Dear Forumites,

It is with great sorrow that I bear the news that George L. Church, Jr.
past away last evening after a 16 month battle with lung cancer.
George was 58 years old. George leaves behind a wife Cathy, daughter
Margaret (Meg) Ames, son-in law Dave Ames, his mother and four sisters.

George's sprinkler career started in 1974 with Automatic Sprinkler
Corporation of America (Philly) and in 1998 started Rowe Sprinkler with
his wife Cathy.
As many of you know, he was a fan of this forum and an huge advocate for
the fire sprinkler industry. He served on several NFPA committees and
valued the many friends he made along his journey.
His humor, enthusiasm, and passion for the sprinkler business will be a
great loss for all of us.

I will post funeral arrangements here on the forum when they become
available.

But in true George Church fashion and as a tribute and continuation of his
last forum postI know he is licking (kicking) himself in a better
place.
(Sorry Mr. Muncy, but I know he wouldn't have passed this one up.)

Wiping away tears as I hit the send button.

Ken Holsopple
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
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Paint booth

[Douglas Hicks]

I have been asked by a local school district about protecting an automotive 
paint booth.  The catch, the booth is 2 x 4 framed, covered with sheet rock.  
The exhaust duct work does not have filters, and the exhaust fan may not be 
rated for hazardous paint fumes.  The booth does not meet any UL standards, so 
I cannot install a dry chemical suppression system.  Will a  water based 
sprinkler work? 
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Re: Paint booth

[Douglas Hicks]

Hi School, Sophomore to Senior
Permit?  Not a chance, No Way.  Does that cost more?
This is the third sheet rock booth I have seen.  None were permitted or 
inspected.
-Original Message- 
From: bver...@comcast.net

Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 5:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Paint booth

Is this a K-12 school, or a community college. Adult education usually 
defaults to a B-occupancy, then goes to special occupancies or uses. If it 
is a high school it should be an E-occupancy.


Spraying in an E-occupancy normally requires a paint spray room. Booths are 
not an option in E occupancies. See IFC 2404.2, IBC, IMC, and adopted 
electrical code.


Was the booth installed under benefit of permit?

bv

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Leyton" 
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 12:14:37 PM
Subject: RE: Paint booth

Not sure there's a recognized 90 minute assembly. There are one and two
hour, but I think the architect would have a hard time gaining approval
for a 90 minute assembly without an appeal or approval of alternative
means and methods of construction. For this type of booth (we've done 3 in
high schools recently) the industry standard for pre manufactured is
either one or two hour.

Steve

"J.P. Merlino"  wrote:

Can the room design method be applied provided the walls of the room in
which the paint booth is located, are 90 min fire rated ?

If the room is under 2500 sq ft it will make a big difference in the water
supply and storage.

J.P. Merlino

-Mensaje original- 
De: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org

[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] En nombre de Steve
Leyton
Enviado el: viernes, 26 de julio de 2013 02:10 p.m.
Para: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Asunto: RE: Paint booth

Yes, but if it's not rated I would say you need to do a design for EH II
that encompasses the booth, the mixing room, and adjacent spaces (assuming
no 2-hour separations from adjacent uses) up to the required design area
in
11.2.3.1.1.

Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA


-Original Message- 
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org on behalf of Douglas

Hicks
Sent: Fri 7/26/2013 10:09 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Paint booth

I have been asked by a local school district about protecting an
automotive
paint booth. The catch, the booth is 2 x 4 framed, covered with sheet
rock.
The exhaust duct work does not have filters, and the exhaust fan may not
be
rated for hazardous paint fumes. The booth does not meet any UL
standards,
so I cannot install a dry chemical suppression system. Will a water
based
sprinkler work?
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rg

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- 
No se encontraron virus en este mensaje.

Comprobado por AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2904 / Base de datos de virus: 3209/6522 - Fecha de
publicacion: 07/26/13

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Re: Paint booth

[Douglas Hicks]

Charles, Ron, this is off topic.  I can beat the story about the cardboard 
box.  There is a resturant here in Eastern Oregon,   I serviced the Ansul 
once.  The Ansul defiencies bothered me enough so I would not do the service 
again. The hood was made of alumiminum and single wall duct, not grease 
tight.  A few years later, a class reunion was held in the resturant.  We 
went, and I noticed the exhaust hood and appliances were gone!  The kitchen 
was moved into the back room.  I went over and peaked in the back room and 
there was a new hood over the appliances.  I was disappointed to see the new 
exhaust hood was not protected by a fire suppression system.  But the lack 
of a suppression system was not the real problem.  The hood did not meet any 
UL, NFPA or IMC standards.  It was made of cardboard!Yes, the hood was 
made of cardboard.  The duct tape that held the cardboard to the wall and 
the duct probably did not meet code either.  But, they did not have to worry 
about grease build-up in the hood, they just replaced the cardboard box.


You just cannot make this stuff up!

-Original Message- 
From: Charles Thurston

Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 10:57 AM
To: Ron Greenman
Subject: Re: Paint booth

Hello Ron,

Actually happened in a body shop here after the city inspector told them 
they needed "Sprinklers" in the spray booth (non sprinkled building) 3/8" 
poly from the saddle tap under the water cooler ran 50' across the building, 
Then split to the 2 heads in the spray booth. City inspector "approved" 
their installation 5-6 years ago and is still like that.


Sunday, July 28, 2013, 11:03:49 AM, you wrote:


so just
increase that to a really big pipe like 1" after tapping the line that 
goes

to the water cooler.




On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 12:55 AM, Douglas Hicks  wrote:



Hi School, Sophomore to Senior
Permit?  Not a chance, No Way.  Does that cost more?
This is the third sheet rock booth I have seen.  None were permitted or
inspected.
-Original Message- From: bver...@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 5:30 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org

Subject: Re: Paint booth



Is this a K-12 school, or a community college. Adult education usually
defaults to a B-occupancy, then goes to special occupancies or uses. If 
it

is a high school it should be an E-occupancy.



Spraying in an E-occupancy normally requires a paint spray room. Booths
are not an option in E occupancies. See IFC 2404.2, IBC, IMC, and adopted
electrical code.



Was the booth installed under benefit of permit?



bv



- Original Message -
From: "Steve Leyton" 
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org

Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 12:14:37 PM
Subject: RE: Paint booth



Not sure there's a recognized 90 minute assembly. There are one and two
hour, but I think the architect would have a hard time gaining approval
for a 90 minute assembly without an appeal or approval of alternative
means and methods of construction. For this type of booth (we've done 3 
in

high schools recently) the industry standard for pre manufactured is
either one or two hour.



Steve



"J.P. Merlino"  wrote:



Can the room design method be applied provided the walls of the room in
which the paint booth is located, are 90 min fire rated ?


If the room is under 2500 sq ft it will make a big difference in the 
water

supply and storage.



J.P. Merlino



-Mensaje original- De: sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.**
firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-**bounces@lists.firesprinkler.**org]
En nombre de Steve
Leyton
Enviado el: viernes, 26 de julio de 2013 02:10 p.m.
Para: 
sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org

;
sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org
Asunto: RE: Paint booth



Yes, but if it's not rated I would say you need to do a design for EH II
that encompasses the booth, the mixing room, and adjacent spaces 
(assuming

no 2-hour separations from adjacent uses) up to the required design area
in
11.2.3.1.1.



Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
San Diego, CA




-Original Message----- From: sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.**
firesprinkler.org  on
behalf of Douglas
Hicks
Sent: Fri 7/26/2013 10:09 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org

Subject: Paint booth



I have been asked by a local school district about protecting an
automotive
paint booth. The catch, the booth is 2 x 4 framed, covered with sheet
rock.
The exhaust duct work does not have filters, and the exhaust fan may not
be
rated for hazardous paint fumes. The booth does not meet any UL
standards,
so I cannot install a dry chemical suppression system. Will a water
based
sprinkler work?
__**_
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Sprinklerforum@lists.**firesprinkler.org
http://lists.firesprinkler.**org/listinfo.cgi/**
sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.o<h

Re: Deep Hole Saws

[Douglas Hicks]

I have drilled similar holes with a ship’s auger.  If you cannot find one that 
will drill to that depth, there is an extension available. The brand was 
Milwaukee.  I think the cost was about $100.00 10 years ago, from Home Depot

From: 321 
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 2:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Deep Hole Saws

I am starting a Freezer/Cooler installation and looking for a hole saw that 
will cut a 2.25" diameter hole 6" deep. I need it that deep with a matching 
pilot drill/mandrel. The cooler panels are 6" thick and I am dropping Dry 
Pendants from above. I prefer to do this in one step and not drill from both 
sides.


I have found on source on line ...but hoping to beat the price ($250 + ea).


Any thoughts?


Thanks 


John W. Farabee
VP Fire Sprinkler Division
Atlantic Realty and Building, LLC
Jupiter, Fl
561-707-5150
Florida License No.
FPC16-000106




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Re: FM and Concealed Sprinklers

[Douglas Hicks]

At hospital request, we installed concealed heads in the psycho hold room.  The 
concern was someone would hang their self from the heads.  I looked, but did 
not find a ladder in the area that would allow them to reach the head and use 
it as a tie-off. But  I did order extra escutcheons for those heads.  

Now about those racoons, did you use UL listed glue?

From: Brad Casterline 
Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2016 12:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: FM and Concealed Sprinklers

If you glue them right Ron, as I'm sure you know, racoons neither stay silent 
nor squeal-- they sort of trill.

On Oct 7, 2016 3:35 PM, "rongreenman ."  wrote:

  I don't think what the value of the rule is, or how it's determined or any 
other thing than what's required is germane to the discussion. If the AHJ wants 
squealing raccoons glued to the ceiling and FM wants quiet ones you have the 
problem of serving two masters. When they've both already decided what type of 
raccoon they demand logic entreaties to them will get a nod of acceptance from 
the one you agree with and  an harrumph from the other. you just need one to 
back off this time. That's it. After that you can go present your arguments to 
the International Raccoon Society and/or Raccoon Underwriters and try to get 
them to agree to a common requirement under all circumstances.  

  I heard that FM changed their co-effcients for hydrant test to coincide with 
NFPA's. How did that get fixed and why not the other way. It would be easiest 
to just use FM as it met the needs of both masters but what if doing so was the 
difference between a pump or not. You'd be best serving your other master, the 
owner, by getting a waiver from FM.


  On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Larrimer, Peter A  
wrote:

Interesting topic.



In my humble opinion, the UL 199 tests to qualify concealed sprinklers as 
quick response is extremely questionable!  On the other hand, what do you think 
you are getting when you install a quick response sprinkler anyway?  
Effectively, the UL 199 test requires the concealed sprinkler to be plunged 
into the test chamber exactly like the pendent sprinkler to get the RTI rating. 
 As far as I know, another test used by UL to measure the response time for a 
concealed sprinkler is to seal up a test room and force the heat of the test 
fire up through the sprinkler cover plate to measure response time.  Neither of 
those tests used by UL to qualify a concealed head as quick response reflect 
the conditions in the field that a concealed head would likely encounter.


I am not suggesting that concealed sprinklers won’t operate, but I would be 
willing to bet that they won’t go off any faster than a standard response 
sprinkler unless the conditions are such that the heat will be forced up 
through the cover plate, and that won’t often be the case.



In addition, concealed sprinklers are not permitted by their listing to be 
installed in rooms where the space above the ceiling is at a higher pressure 
than the pressure in the room below.  One manufacture states “NOTE: Concealed 
sprinklers must be installed in neutral or negative pressure plenums only.”  
That requirement can significantly limit the installation opportunities for 
those of us in the healthcare industry because we have many negative pressure 
rooms that are required for infection control purposes and installing a 
concealed head would be inappropriate (though it happens quite often).  Have 
the installers out there ever asked which rooms were designed to negative 
pressure requirements prior to installing the sprinkler system?



We had one instance where we found out after the fact, that we evidently 
had leaking duct work in the plenum space above a ceiling and the pressure in 
the space above the ceiling was enough to have the soot line from a patient bed 
fire blacken the walls down to a foot off the floor even though we had a quick 
response sprinkler in the room.  The air leaking from the plenum space left a 
little white line around the cover plate of the concealed sprinkler and the 
quick response sprinkler didn’t operate at all.  



I am not saying concealed sprinklers are especially bad, but I would not 
consider them to be quick response even when listed as such by UL.  Maybe that 
is why there aren’t any FM Approved quick response sprinklers?  When somebody 
makes a concealed sprinkler that gets an FM Approval for quick response, then I 
would feel more comfortable that the sprinkler will actually operate faster 
than a standard response.  There are FM Approved standard response sprinklers, 
and FM has a test for quick response concealed sprinklers, but since nobody has 
a FM Approved concealed sprinkler on the market, it might make you wonder if 
their test might be more realistic.  



VA sprinkler specifications require FM approved quick response sprinklers 
(not UL listed) for new projects.  Thus, no concealed sprin

Move noisy air compressor?

[Douglas Hicks]

A customer has received complaints about the air compressor being too noisy.  
The compressor is bolted to a concrete floor, no rubber pads used.  I have used 
rubber pads (55-56 small block Chevy motor mounts) to control the noise.  
Sometimes that works, sometimes not.  Grainger also has square pads for noise 
control.  Any feed back as to which is better, motor mounts jor the squasre 
pads.

If the motor mounts do not control the noise, can we move the compressor? If 
so, how far away?Is there a max distance?  They are looking at 60 feet 
away, using 3/4”  or 1” pipe.  ___
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Antifreeze loops

[Douglas Hicks]

I have  a guest lodge, with 3 glycerine antifreeze loops.  The building is 
about 15 years old, and has a history of leaking heads.All of the heads 
were replaced about 5 years ago.  We  replaced 2 leaking horizontal heads and 2 
leaking pendants, and the leaking FDC check valve in Oct of 2015.  At that time 
we removed and flushed the antifreeze.  We installed the removed antifreeze. 

I learned 6 things that day. 
1. When you are told there are 2 antifreeze loops, make sure there is not a 3rd 
loop.   
2. Tell your helper too slwly remove the leaking  head in the bathroom. 
When you remove the head too fast, the water/antifreeze will blow the head 
completely out of your fingers and that a 5 gallon bucket fills real fast.
3. Explain how fast the bucket fills up & when I start to holler  “Empty the 
bucket in the bath tub!”  I really mean to empty the bucket into the bath tub. 
Do all the above  before you start.  
4. Glycerine antifreeze really smells bad and your clothing gets  really 
sticky.  
5. It takes at least 5 times running your clothes through the laundry before 
they do not stink.  
6. Most important, it helps if the maintance supervisor has done stupid things 
himself.  

This year, we replaced 2 more leaking heads, installed new antifreeze and 
installed a couple of 1/2 ball valves to bleed off the air, when we filled the 
antifreeze loops.  I did not need to change clothing part-way through the job

Our Antifreeze now is at 11°F.  I would like a lower temp.  Temps in that area 
can range between -15°F and 125°F in the attic.  They measured those temps last 
year.  Can we remove the one-way check valves and make the whole system just 
one antifreeze system.  I understand when the system was installed, 40 gallons 
was the max antifreeze system.  
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Lost coupon

[Douglas Hicks]

We had a system with the flow switch downstream from the test and drain.  Space 
was at premium  We shut off the antifreeze loop and the incoming OS & Y, and 
drained the system.  We used  the Ridgid HC 450.  They broke the pilot bit,  I 
was not told, so they crew kept going.  They cut the hole, and the coupon 
dropped into the pipe.  Problem was the pipe was vertical.  Now we have the 
coupon down in the pipe, at the bottom.  My guys found out that turning on the 
water,  did not work.  The coupon did not rise to the hole. Luckily, we had a 
plumber close by and he came to see what the problem was.  He said he could 
retrieve the coupon.  He took   a piece of pex and heated it, then poked a cow 
magnet into the pex.  Then he taped the magnet and pex together.  At the bottom 
of the vertical pipe was a 90 °.  He pulled the pex and made a bend and tried 
again.  The magnet found the coupon and he pulled it out.  I had visions of us 
taking the OS & Y apart trying to find the coupon.  ___
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SR/QR Heads

[Douglas Hicks]

We have a child care in the basement of a church, fully wet sprinkled (except 
for a couple of closets).  When we first did the service a couple of years ago, 
I noted the sprinkler heads in the basement were getting close to 50 years old, 
and they should think about budgeting for the replacement/testing. So, a 
competitor got the job.  All the SR fusible heads replaced were replaced with 
QR heads.   I thought we were to use the same type of replacement heads, as 
were originally installed.  Am I wrong?   
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Re: Excessive air leak rate

[Douglas Hicks]

I must be the only person working today.  Did I miss a holiday?  

25-2014 13.4.4.2.9 . Page 436 of NFPA 25-2014 Handbook
(1) Air at 40 PSI for 2 hours, 3 PSI loss or less is OK
(2) Normal air pressure, with air source off for 4 hours.  If low pressure 
alarm goes off within the 4 hours period, the leaks shall be fixed. 
   

From: Mike Henke 
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2016 12:40 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Excessive air leak rate

Since I only received one response, I’ll try this one last time.

 

What do you consider to be an excessive air leak for dry or preaction systems 
or at what point do you go searching for the cause of the leak?

 

How do you know that you have an excessive air leak?

When someone complains about the compressor running all the time?

When the compressor burns out?

When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test?

When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals?

Something else?

 

Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or 
approaching the maximum allowable rate?

 

Feel free to email me off line.

 

 

Kind Regards,

 

mike

 

Mike Henke CET

Sprinkler Product Manager

___

  



  

Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC

1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042

phone: 800-325-3936   |   direct: 314-595-6740

  

mi...@pottersignal.com   |   www.pottersignal.com

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Mike Henke
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 1:22 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Excessive air leak rate

 

What would you consider to be an excessive air leak rate for dry or preaction 
systems?

How many psi per day?

 

An acceptance test for a new system requires less than 1.5 psi in 24 hours. 
That’s pretty tight.

 

NFPA 25 allows 36 psi in 24 hours for the 3 year test. That seems pretty loose.

 

It looks like NFPA 25 changed it in 2008 from 10 psi per week, which is 1.5 psi 
per day, to 36 psi per day. That’s a pretty drastic change.

 

Would it help if you were notified that the air leak rate is increasing or 
approaching the maximum allowable rate?

 

How do you know that you have an excessive air leak?

When someone complains about the compressor running all the time?

When the compressor burns out?

When/if you conduct a 3 year leak rate test?

When you go to investigate low air supervisory signals?

 

Kind Regards,

 

mike

 

Mike Henke CET

Sprinkler Product Manager

___

  



  

Potter Electric Signal Company, LLC

1609 Park 370 Place, St. Louis, MO 63042

phone: 800-325-3936   |   direct: 314-595-6740

  

mi...@pottersignal.com   |   www.pottersignal.com

 




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Re: Swimming pool Environments

[Douglas Hicks]

Tyco has the TY-B polyester heads that seem to work well in pools.  After 10 
years, there is no corrosion visible.  But the TY-B are only available in 1/2”

I found this head available in stainless, stainles-molybenumand or titanium.   
I am afraid to ask the cost of the heads.  
  a.. TY-B: 5 mm diameter heat sensitive glass bulb, standard response 
  b.. TY-FRB: 3 mm diameter heat sensitive glass bulb, quick response 
  c.. Corrosion resistant, standard coverage spray sprinklers designed for use 
in commercial occupancies where corrosive atmospheres may exist 
  d.. Alternate materials of construction (Stainless Steel, SMO, or Titanium) 
are utilized to extend the life of a sprinkler beyond that which might be 
expected of copper alloy sprinklers exposed to corrosive atmospheres 
  e.. (SMO = stainless-molybdenum alloyed)
Hazard: All
Temperature: 135, 155, 175, 200, 286, 360
Thread: 1/2",3/4"
Approval: UL, C-UL, LPCB, Lloyds,LPCB
Response: Standard Response,Quick Response
SIN Numbers: 
TY8191,TY8181,TY8281,TY8681,TY8381,TY8481,TY8182,TY8282,TY8682,TY8382,TY8482,TY8183,TY8283,TY8683,TY8383,TY8493,TY8393,TY8693,TY8291,TY8691,TY8391,TY8491,TY8192,TY8292,TY8692,TY8392,TY8293,TY8193,TY8483,TY8492,TY9181,TY9281,TY9291,TY9191,TY9681,TY9691
Wrench: W6
Wrench [Recessed]: ,W7
Tech Data Sheet: TFP680 View |  PDF 924kb 
From: Travis Mack 
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 7:23 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Swimming pool Environments

When in hotels and pipe above ceiling we see cpvc pipe. When exposed it has 
been powder coated. 

Sprinklers have been the white polyester corrosion resistant. 

Zinc plated rod and hangers. 


Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
"Follow" us on Facebook: 
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 6, 2016, at 8:12 AM, Mark Phillips  wrote:


  Steel pipe and Powder coated Red

   

  From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
On Behalf Of Tim Stone
  Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 10:06 AM
  To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Swimming pool Environments

   

  I was approached by an Architect as to what is the best pipe material to use 
in a closed in swimming pool area. Black Steel or galvanized? 2” Schedule 
branchline piping and smaller only.

  What do people think about galvanized? 

  What about Epoxy Painted Black pipe?

  Ventilated or Non-ventilated space? 

   

  Cheers,

  G. Tim Stone

   

  G. Tim Stone Consulting, LLC

  NICET Level III Engineering Technician

  Fire Protection Sprinkler Design

  and Consulting Services

   

  117 Old Stage Rd. - Essex Jct., VT. 05452

  CELL: (802) 373-0638   TEL: (802) 434-2968   Fax: (802) 434-4343

 tston...@comcast.net

   

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Re: Wet Pipe Above Breezeway

[Douglas Hicks]

We have had freeze breaks when the insulation is batts under the dry pipes and 
when the blown-in insulation gets moved by winds coming under soffits and in 
gable-end vents.  After fixing the pipes and having other contractors fix the 
sheet rock, the insurance company will not pay to have plastic sheeting stapled 
over the dry pipe.  If that is done, and blown-in insulation used, there seems 
to be no more freeze damage.  People do not seem to realize that insulation 
around the pipe does stop/slow the transfer of heat from below to the pipe.  

We had a plastic pipe break in an ALF.  I sent a crew to  fix the break, but my 
people did not investigate why the break happened. Two years later, another 
break.  At that time, my alarm tech and I were at the building doing the annual 
sprinkler/alarm service.  We smoked a detector, but could not silence the 
alarm.  The maintenece man & I headed for the sprinkler room and shut down the 
system.  We found a break in the same room as before.  We  moved the pipe away 
from the soffit vents, making sure the head was in the original position.  I 
made sure there was 10 mil plastic used, then the insulation was blown in. I 
also had cardboard stapled to the bottom of the rafters to keep the wind from 
moving the blown in insulation. The cardboard was not stapled in place, but 
roofing nails were used.  The first break was 20 years after the building was 
built. The second break was 2 years later.  We are now at year 3 or 4 after the 
second incident, no breaks yet, but the temps are still below 0°F. The customer 
gladly paid to have extra to have the pipe location changed. 

We have another ALF that has a wet system in the building.  Never a problem.  
But, the insulation batts are stapled to the bottom of the trusses, so the 
attic is warm.  

Ever notice how we can afford fix the problem, and not be concerned about the 
cost, but the cheapest bidder gets the original contract? 
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 3:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Wet Pipe Above Breezeway

 

So there’s no insulation covering the pipe?

 


Craig L. Prahl 
Fire Protection Group Lead/SME
CH2M
200 Verdae Blvd. 
Greenville, SC  29607
Direct - 864.920.7540

Fax - 864.920.7129

CH2MHILL Extension  77540
craig.pr...@ch2m.com

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Brian Harris
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 3:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Wet Pipe Above Breezeway [EXTERNAL]

 

I went to look at an apartment building near our office because they keep 
having issues with pipe freezing in the attic. I’ve attached a link to a 
dropbox that has a picture of the pipe (wet) as it’s currently installed above 
the breezeway. The insulation you see is all there is. Any thoughts? I looked 
through my BlazeMaster stuff but didn’t see anything about heat trace. Is that 
even an option with CPVC?

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hz7l7e1eg5grzyx/IMG_1944.JPG?dl=0

 

Brian Harris, CET

BVS Systems Inc.

Design Manager

bvssystemsinc.com

Phone: 704.896.9989

Fax: 704.896.1935

 


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Re: DI Piping

[Douglas Hicks]

I am sure DI does not mean De-ionized, so what is Di pipe?  Schedule 10. 7.  5? 
 I do know I cannot thread 10 with my 300 Ridgid, but I can crush 5, 7 and 10 
with the threader. 

From: rongreenman . 
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2017 10:23 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: DI Piping

Yes I meant fittings. Haven't found any DI pipe that can be threaded. 

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 10:20 AM Tom Duross  wrote:

  What Ron said (I think he meant fittings) and I’ve seen many instances of 
grooved unlined DI piping within pump rooms (talk about heavy!) but if used on 
the potable side, I believe like Dave said, cement lined CL52.

  TD





  In many companies DI has replaced CI for small screwed piping. Grooved 
fittings are DI. The only problem I could see is the connection method and 
restraint, and small leakage if using PE fittings on the pipe. 

  On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 9:24 AM å...   wrote:



I don't know of a many good reasons to deny this design.  If anyone calls 
you on your judgment, preempt their question by caveatting your decision using 
Section 1.5.



Scot Deal

Excelsior Fire & Risk Engineering

gsm:  +420 722 141 478

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Re: Static pressure after backflow preventer

[Douglas Hicks]

Are we talking your building, or my building?

From: Brad Casterline 
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 6:01 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Static pressure after backflow preventer

But if only one head activates, there is not much of an emergency, no?

Brad

On Jan 17, 2017 7:53 PM, "Timothy Goins"  wrote:

  Fine and good into you have a fire with only one had that activates.

  Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, 
or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the 
life more than meat, and the body than raiment? 
  MAT 6:25

  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of 
water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. JHN 3:5

  On Jan 17, 2017, at 3:16 PM, Steve Leyton  wrote:


Okay, great and wonderful but you what that does is flatten the curve and 
potentially makes higher flow rate residual pressures plot HIGHER than they 
would otherwise be.   S … as a designer-of-record charged with (among 
myriad other things) anticipating worst case scenario, methinks it makes sense 
to keep as much tilt in that flow data curve as possible.



Steve L.

(My opinion only, based on numerous cases served as an expert witness and 
somebody who buys a lot of liability insurance every year.)



From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne 
Martinez
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 1:13 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Static pressure after backflow preventer



Ames got back to me and said “Yes there is a pressure loss at static flow. 
It will depend on which type backflow youre looking at. A RPZ will usually show 
a 10-15 PSI drop. A double check is usually 8-10.”





From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Brad 
Casterline
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 12:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Static pressure after backflow preventer



Matt,



I think your example of sliding friction is excellent. Pressure is force 
divided by area, and force is mass times acceleration.

With sliding friction the force required to give a mass an acceleration is 
greater than the force required to keep it going a constant velocity.

With fluid friction viscosity comes into play and is actually related to 
sliding friction in that the constant force required to slide a steel plate 
across the surface of a fluid, imparting a certain constant velocity to the 
plate is a measure of the viscosity of the fluid.



But the question is regarding friction loss when the flow is 0 GPM, and at 
0 GPM the velocity of the water = 0.

Near the end of what I pasted you see:

mgh=1/2mv^2.

This is the Conservation of Energy formula for going from Potential Energy 
(static), to Kinetic Energy (residual).

In a closed system no mass is gained or lost (it is the same on both sides 
so it cancels out), so,

h=v^2/2g, and,

v=SQRT(2gh).

But if the velocity is 0 on both sides the only way to get a different 
force measurements is with different h measurements (elevations).



I know you and others know all this, so please excuse my didactic tone.



Brad  












From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:33 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Static pressure after backflow preventer



Of course – if you are super close to a pressure limit – the BFP might also 
lock in some unusually high pressure spike that occurs in the system. Then the 
sprinkler system could sit around locked at a pressure that is greater than 
even the typical measured static.



Matt 





From: Sprinklerforum 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Thursday, January 12, 2017 6:30 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Static pressure after backflow preventer



Just to think out loud – I don’t have a perfect understanding of how very 
low flow works through backflows… but:



It seems like the system static that is locked in is usually pretty close 
to the flow test static. I wonder if the noticeable pressure loss to initially 
open the BFP, that goes down once flow starts, if that pressure drop might 
approach zero as the flow goes from positive back to zero.



That is – the pressure drop seen at a flow that is just barely over zero 
depends on whether you are approaching that flow from zero, or from [more than 
zero].



For example: if you slide a block across a table – the force it takes to 
move the block at a very low speed will depend a lot o

Check valves on Antifreeze loops

[Douglas Hicks]

We have a building with 2 outside canopies, each is protected by an antifreeze 
loop.  The sprinkler system has a backflow in a pit.  Do each of  the 2 
antifreeze loops need a one way swing check valve, with a hole in the clapper? 
I will put a test port at each end of both loops, even though the loops are not 
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Head wrench

[Douglas Hicks]

I have about 40 of 246G ASCOA recessed heads to replace.  I don’t have any 
wrenches that will fit, without rounding the corners off of the heads.  Anyone 
have one or two for sale?  

Has anyone tried the Argco universal wrench?  I looks like they took an 
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Re: Polybutylene

[Douglas Hicks]

Give them the name of your most hated competitor

From: j...@jbfireprotection.com 
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 8:47 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Polybutylene




Jeff
JB Fire Protection
Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 28, 2017, at 09:26, fpdcdes...@gmail.com wrote:


  A client of mine has a system that was installed with polybutylene pipe. Now 
some sprinklers need to be relocated. Is there any kind of adapter that would 
allow you to modify one of these?


  Todd G Williams, PE 
  Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  Stonington, CT
  860-535-2080 (ofc)
  860-553-3553 (fax)
  860-608-4559 (cell)
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Re: Tyco DPV-1 Dry valves

[Douglas Hicks]

We have upgraded several dry valves to the DPV-1 valve. They trip faster, & use 
less air pressure.  Normally, we do not use the inspectors by-pass valve, doing 
a full or partial trip instead. Does there seem to be a problem when doing a 
full or a partial trip?

When you clean the orifice, do you use a screwdriver or a brush to remove the 
water deposits?

From: Scott Futrell 
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 7:36 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Tyco DPV-1 Dry valves

To any of you that do IT&M on these dry valves that were manufactured sometime 
between 2003 and current (I don’t know the exact timeframe yet), we took the 
second one apart that has had the two small orifices in the back, in the ¾’ 
alarm port, plugged. When these are plugged water doesn’t flow to the pressure 
switch and no waterflow alarm signal is sent.

 

If you are doing annual IT&M on Tyco dry valves I would recommend you take the 
¾” trim apart in the back and thoroughly clean these two small orifices and the 
small slot intermediate chamber leading to them. I understand this is not easy 
or quick, but using the alarm bypass test generates the waterflow signal from 
the pressure switch and waterflow through the alarm port, during dry pipe valve 
operation, will not generate the signal if the orifices are plugged.

 

It is my understanding that Tyco has not issued any technical advice on this, 
but that may be wrong. I’ve been told they haven’t by others.

 

I can provide more information offline if interested.

 

Scott

 

Office: (763) 425-1001 x 2

Cell: (612) 759-5556

 

 




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Re: Central sprinkler butterfly valve

[Douglas Hicks]

I have sheets for Butterfly Valve-A  and Butterfly Valve-BFV, dated 6-94.   
But, there is no parts listing.   I can send what I have.  

From: Dewayne Martinez 
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2017 11:27 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Cc: dmarti...@total-mechanical.com 
Subject: Central sprinkler butterfly valve

Does anyone have a cut sheet for an old Central sprinkler butterfly valve. 

I’m looking for parts for it. 

Thanks,



Dewayne Martinez

Fire Protection Design Manager



TOTAL Mechanical

Building Integrity
W234 N2830 Paul Rd.
Pewaukee, WI  53072

dmarti...@total-mechanical.com

Ph:  262-522-7110

Cell: 414-406-5208

http://www.total-mechanical.com/



   








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Anti freeze pump

[Douglas Hicks]

The sump pump I have been using to pump antifreeze died.  It did not do a very 
good job anyway.  I would barley pump to the attic in a 1 story building.  Any 
thoughts on what GPM and what pressure I should be looking for?  110V of 
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Re: Anti freeze pump

[Douglas Hicks]

Thank you.  I will be by a Harbor Freight tomorrow.  

From: John Paulsen 
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:41 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: Anti freeze pump

Doug:

 

We use a Pacific Hydrostar (Item #65836) 25 GPM/60 PSI Transfer Pump. It has an 
800 Watt motor that we still have yet to wear out. I think we bought it at 
Harbor Freight for $125. It will pump to a 4th story attic with no issues

 

Hope that helps.

 

Merry Christmas!

 

John Paulsen – SET

Crown Fire System Design

6282 Seeds Rd.

Grove City, OH 43123

P – 614-782-2438

F – 614-782-2374

C – 614-348-8206

 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Douglas Hicks
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 4:19 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Anti freeze pump

 

The sump pump I have been using to pump antifreeze died.  It did not do a very 
good job anyway.  I would barley pump to the attic in a 1 story building.  Any 
thoughts on what GPM and what pressure I should be looking for?  110V of 
course.  




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Re: Sprinkler in vertical duct

[Douglas Hicks]

https://www.flamegard.com/products/subcategoryproductlist/?subcategory=29  OK,  
not listed for paint booths.  But they are listed for commercial kitchen 
exhaust ducts.  Easy to install and they do not leak.  Not cheap either.  

https://www.flamegard.com/products/subcategoryproductlist/?subcategory=8  They 
claim t be grease tight.  They are not grease tight.  When I cleaned hoods, I 
would not remove them, because the gaskets leaked so bad. 
From: Bruce Verhei 
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 12:50 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Sprinkler in vertical duct

I accepted a lot of dry pendants. Is there a requirement other than 1/2” or 
9/16”? As long as you can meet than 7psi when all the heads in the both and 
plenum are operating. Does that 15psi you see in horizontal ducts apply?  

If you’ve ever seen one of these heads operating it is a lot of water. Instead 
spraying out over 150 sf it’s in maybe 7 sf. 


Even in a really large, 48” ID duct (12 1/2 sf) this is a lot of water. And few 
are that large.

Much bigger concern is access for inspection, replacement of bag and ability 
replace head. Oh and duct offsets.

Best.

Bruce Verhei 




On Feb 7, 2018, at 12:34, Fpdcdesign  wrote:


  I am working on a project with a small spray booth with an exhaust duct 
coming out vertically and up through the roof. I need to install a dry 
sprinkler in the duct. SHould this be a horizontal sidewall or would a pendent 
be sufficient. I am dealing with a low water pressure situation and would like 
to use a K11.2 sprink, but can't find a sidewall approved for an EH occupancy.

  Todd G Williams, PE 
  Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  Stonington, CT
  860-535-2080 (ofc)
  860-553-3553 (fax)
  860-608-4559 (cell)
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Re: threaded union fitting - follow up

[Douglas Hicks]

I don’t know about water, but gas piping is not allowed to have unions hidden 
in a wall.  

From: Matt Grise 
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 8:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: RE: threaded union fitting - follow up

Just to follow up with this – after reviewing with the code inspector, it was 
the plumbing code requirement they were thinking of – not applicable to 
sprinklers. (I know you all have been on pins and needles!)

 

Matt 

 

 

From: Matt Grise 
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 1:33 PM
To: 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' 

Subject: threaded union fitting

 

I recently had an inspector say that all threaded union fittings must be 
accessible (access panel provided for union behind sheet rock). I have hear 
that this is a requirement for domestic water piping, but I have never heard 
about this for fire sprinklers. Does this ring a bell with anyone? 

 

Thanks!

 

Matt 

 




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Re: Draining System below ground....

[Douglas Hicks]

www.haroldallencompany.com/dualvac-p/dv.htm

This vacuum sucks and blows water.  It is especially usefull when changing 
heads.  But once we used it to drain water below grade


-Original Message- 
From: Brian Harris

Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:29 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Draining System below ground

Any suggestions on draining a system located in a basement below grade?

Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935

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Re: Elevators types and sprinkler omissions

[Douglas Hicks]

2014 oregon 
From: å...  

We removed the smoke and sprnklers in the shaft and mechanical room

Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 5:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Elevators types and sprinkler omissions



I typically would NOT advice a sprinkler at a top of an elevator shaft, but I 
see what is for me, far too many going in anyway.

With a sprinkler at the top of an elevator shaft typically we would need:
  a smoke detector to initiate recall of elevator before shunt-trip
  a heat detector to initiate shunt-trip power drop
   Then after that gauntlet of consequences that looks good on paper I suppose, 
your sprinkler activates.

I would like to hear from the forum the frequency with which we know that smoke 
detectors at the top of an elevator shaft are inspected, let alone replaced?
Sometimes the smokes are installed center of shaft, so some lucky maintenance 
guy gets to hang his body out over floors of clear air space...  scares most of 
the ITM people away.
Sometimes the designers put a note to install the detector near a wall of the 
shaft (but not too near the wall for fear of the smoke flow dead zone...which 
in this case is all but splitting hairs).

How many fires occur in elevators?  Elevators are one of the safest forms of 
vertical transportation going...
And even if a fire did occur in the elevator shaft/car, most modern elevator 
cars are non-combustible or limited combustible if they comply with ASTM A17.1  
or EN 81-72 or equivalent
And even if the contents of the freight elevator did ignite, it is in a 1- or 
2-hour fire rated elevator shaft.Is there enough fuel in that freight 
elevator to burn for even 45 minutes?

I would apply a risk based judgment  upon the elevator-car, elevator shaft fire 
scenario, and factor in the consequences of installing sprinklers (and all the 
recall/shut-trip detection that becomes impaired within a few years).
What if the sprinkler goes off and there is someone in the freight car.  Now we 
have an entirely new set of issues that come into play:
   what will happen to the elevator controls after they are soaked with water?
   the emergency and fail-safe brake mechanisms should work despite the water 
from the sprinkler, but not as reliably as the  ruggedized  'fire service 
access elevators' .
   And the 'fire service access' qualified elevators are another league of 
expense and effort


I would just say 'No" to sprinklers at the top of elevators shafts, if given 
any freedom in the decision.  

I don't think many lawyers or building owners have enough design details at 
their fingertips to realize they could take the designer to court if  water 
from an elevator-shaft-top sprinkler causes elevator  damage, 
but if they did, they could.

Sometimes simpler is better.  

I am all in, for sprinklers.  I will put sprinklers over most servers and 
electrical gear 9 out 10 instances.  But I won't put a sprinkler at the top of 
an non-combustible elevator shaft in 99 out of a 100 instances.




Scot Deal  
​Excelsior Risk and Fire Engineering​
gms:  +420 606 981 266 ​   GMT + 1




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Removal of FDC check valve

[Douglas Hicks]

Automatic Sprinkler Handbook, 2013 edition Page 454 tells us we cannot reverse 
the check valve in the FDC as a means to perform a forward flow,  except for 
those systems that did not have backflow devices at the time of sprinkler 
installation.   

Question # 1.  Can we replace the check valve with a pipe, and then do the 
forward flow?

Question # 2 Can we tie the clapper in the open position, and then do the 
forward flow? 

Question # 3 Can we have a licensed plumber remove the checks in the backflow 
device, and then do the forward flow?  (In Oregon, sprinkler people are not 
smart enough to work on backflow devices, even if we are licensed to test 
back-flows)
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expansion tanks

[Douglas Hicks]

An account has had the wet sprinkler system changed to antifreeze. Too bad the 
alarm guy did not know about the antifreeze.  Maybe there is a reason for 
signs.  When I checked the antifreeze solution at the far end, it was at 10°F. 
We will install an isolation valve so the system can be flow tested w/o loosing 
the antifreeze solution, and install a test port at the far end.  The system is 
about 50 gallons, so we do not need to test the antifreeze except at both ends. 
 

And isn’t the expansion tank  supposed to be listed?  The tank does not have 
any ID as to manufacturer or listing or capacity.  Other tanks I have seen were 
mounted vertically, this one is horizontal. 

There are at least 2 places where the wet sprinkler piping goes vertically 
about 15 feet.  Do we need to loosen the sprinkler heads to allow air to escape?

We now get our antifreeze pre-mixed in 5 gallon buckets.  Any leftover 
antifreeze will be left on site. And signs will be installed.  One sign we make 
by cutting an empty bucket so the label becomes the sign.  

What did I miss?  
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Re: Test Certificates

[Douglas Hicks]

I do not have a very good opinion of the fire suppression business.  I see 
too many occasions when obvious short cuts are taken or the work was not 
even done, but was invoiced.  I want to thank you guys for responding to Mr 
Cooks question dealing with ethics.  I think all of us are tempted to cut 
corners, or to do less than the code calls for.  Especially when we see 
competitors expanding and make more money than we do.  Thank you for setting 
a good example.  You are helping me keep to the high road.  Our common goal 
is a fire safe community.



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Re: Antifreeze in systems

[Douglas Hicks]

25-2014 edition 5.3.4 If you do not have a copy, go to 
http://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/document-information-pages.  You can 
look at the codes as  "read only".  But you really need to get the book.  Or 
better, get 13 and 25 with the commentary.




-Original Message- 
From: rongreenman .

Sent: Friday, January 09, 2015 5:28 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Antifreeze in systems

Try reading NFPA 25.

On Fri, Jan 9, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Jody Massey 
wrote:


Gentlemen,
Concerning existing systems (in general):

   - Are these required to be inspected? If so, where is it noted?
   - When are antifreeze systems used and can you look at the system and
   see when/if the antifreeze was put in?
   - How often, if ever, does the antifreeze need to be replaced/tested?

Thank you and happy 2015,

*Jody*
ᐧ
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Antifreeze, not enough

[Douglas Hicks]

We was called to install an isolation valve in a wet system, and replace the 
antifreeze. Another company made the wet system into an antifreeze system.  No 
signage, indicating the system was not a wet system but was an antifreeze 
system.   I was told the system held about 50 to 55 gallons of glycol.  I 
ordered 12 of the 38% 5 gallon pre-mixed buckets, 60 gallons.  I also had some 
straight glycol, that we mixed, for a total of 80 gallons .We got to the 
job site and drained the system, getting about 75 gallons of fluid. The old 
antifreeze was dirty, but no lumps, no scale.   After installing the isolation 
valve, and test ports at each end of the system, we flushed and drained the 
system. We filled the system with fresh water and held the pressure for 10 
minutes and had no visible leaks. Again we drained the system, using the vacuum 
to make sure we got all the old fluid out. We put in 80 gallons, of pre-mix.  
Our pressure reading was about 5 PSI.  I went into the highest att
 ic, loosened 2 heads and we had antifreeze leaking out.  At least it tasted 
like antifreeze, nasty tasting stuff. I tightened the heads and we went to the 
sprinkler room.  We added 12 gallons of straight water.  Still not enough 
pressure, so we opened the main control valve.  That is when I found out the 
50-60 gallon estimate came from the alarm guy, when he flowed water for his 
annual test.  So the maintenance guy & I went to his office and finally found 
some information that noted there was 110 gallons of water in the system.   So 
now I have a mix of antifreeze and straight water.   My thought is to drain 
15/20 gallons, then test the solution, and keep draining and testing until I 
get to 38% glycol.  Then we will add 38% until the system is full.  Or do we 
need to dump all the antifreeze and start over?  

We did have a problem filling the system with the pump.  Should we go to the 
highest accessible head and remove it, replacing it with a ball valve that we 
can open  and relieve the pressure?  Our pump has filled other systems without 
any problems.  

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc

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Insurance discount for a sprinkler system

[Douglas Hicks]

At the risk of being off topic:

Irish Fire Insurance

A man and his wife moved back home to Cork , from London.

The wife had a wooden leg and to insure it in Britain was £2000.00 a year!

When they arrived in Cork , they went to an Insurance agency to see

how much it would cost to insure the wooden leg.

The agent looked it up on the computer and said to the couple, '€39.00.'

The husband was shocked and asked why it was so cheap here in Ireland

to insure, because it cost him £2000.00 in England!

The agent turned his computer screen to the couple and said, 'Well, here it is 
on

the screen, it says:

*Any wooden structure, with a sprinkler system over it, is €39.00.*'


I always did find the Irish Logic far superior to most others.

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Residential Antifreeze systems

[Douglas Hicks]

I recently tested and inspected a church camp with 15 sprinkler systems.  I 
found problems with all of them. Some had a lack of proper signage, some had no 
inspection tests ports, and some do not send a signal to the fire alarm system. 
  All of the residential units have CPVC piping, steel piping, and  antifreeze. 
 All the antifreeze systems have expansion tanks, most with about a 2.5 gallon 
non-UL listed tanks and only 4 have UL listed tanks.  At least 2 of the units 
have leaks at present.  One with a UL listed Amtrol tank and 1 with a non-UL 
plumbing expansion tank.  The system with a Non-UL tank has had heads and CPVC 
replaced in the last 2 or 3 years.  It now has more leaks.  The system with a 
UL listed tank has one sprinkler head starting to leak.  I do not know if the 
head or the fitting is leaking.  Nor do I know if more leaks are in the attic 
or concealed spaces.   I do not know the volume of the systems.   I do know the 
outside temperature ranges from 0° to 115°F.  Staff has told me they expect 
200°F in the attic in the summer.  

I have been asked what the  difference between plumbing and fire expansion 
tanks is.  All I know is the UL Listed tanks are much heavier and are sized as 
per temperature differential and volume of the system, and a lot more 
expensive!  Is the bladder thicker on the UL listed product?  Does  the bladder 
on the Non-UL tank have an adverse reaction to the glycerin  antifreeze?  Water 
pressure is about 50-60 PSI.  We did put 40 PSI of Nitrogen in some of the 
expansion tanks.  Too much or not enough?  So far, the maintenance director is 
more concerned with the cost of water damage or a sprinkler system that does 
not work than saving a few bucks.  He did not flinch when I quoted a price on 
UL listed tanks.  Should I think about replacing all of the CPVC piping or just 
the leaking CPVC?  Or go to steel pipe?  Are all antifreeze systems or loops 
required to have expansion tanks?  If so, when did that go into effect?

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Re: Type of fire protection system for detention centers RETORT

[Douglas Hicks]

I heard that the city jail in Walla Walla had problems with the inmates 
breaking sprinklers. This was in the intake area, not the jail proper.  They 
went to open heads.  The pipe supply had a solenoid operated water valve, 
that was controlled by a manual switch at the control station.   Staff found 
the open heads not only controlled a fire, but controlled inmates.  Flip the 
switch, water flowed from the open heads until the problem inmate decided to 
act like an adult.  Problem solved.


-Original Message- 
From: Art Tiroly

Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 9:08 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Type of fire protection system for detention centers RETORT

A rural detention center I worked on found one inmate that did not fear the
rule, activated the sprinkler next to the upper bunk and sent him to the
floor when the fire pump doused him with pond water. Word spread > don't
mess with the sprinklers.
Art
-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E.
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 10:40 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Type of fire protection system for detention centers RETORT

Nadeem,  just to expound further on Jerrys use of quotations around "tamper
proof:"

Institutional sprinklers are designed to prevent occupants form using them
for self-harm, such as hanging. They CAN be somewhat more resistant to
tampering than typical non-institutional sprinklers.  But they are not
tamper-proof, per se.  If an occupant wants to damage or activate an
institutional sprinkler, they will be able to find a way; it will just be
more difficult than a standard sprinkler. There are no truly tamper-proof
sprinklers.

Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection
Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 |
http://www.kfiengineers.com

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of accentf...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2015 9:27 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Type of fire protection system for detention centers RETORT

Ladies/Gentlemen (and Roland):

Preferably wet-pipe fire sprinkler system in heated (40+ F.)  areas -
dry-pipe system in unheated areas..."Institutional" sprinklers
("tamper-proof") in areas accessible to 'residents' - in areas
non-accessible, quick-response sprinklers in all Light Hazard areas...

Best to All-

Jerry
_accentfire@aol.com_ (mailto:accentf...@aol.com)

Jerry D. Watts, SFPE
President & Co-Founder
ACCENT FIRE ENGINEERING INT'L. Ltd.
Santa Fe, New Mexico USA
(800) 503.1961 nationwide



In a message dated 4/16/2015 12:18:10 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time,
nadeem...@gmail.com writes:

Dears

Can anybody advise me the type of fire protection  system required for
detention centers.


--
Regards

Nadeem Ahmed
Mechanical  Engineer
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Re: 3 Year Air Test

[Douglas Hicks]

 I list the deficiencies  on the report.   Then I reference  the reasons 
behind the requirement, quoting 13 & 25.  I may copy a page or two from  the 
commentaries of 13 & 25. It also helps to enclose a copy of the service 
report with the job estimate.   We forget the people who make the decisions, 
have no concept of what we do.


-Original Message- 
From: rongreenman .

Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 10:26 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: 3 Year Air Test

Does the owner pay you to do it annually, every three years, or at all.
Whatever you contract to do is what you do. You use the appropriate form
and if it's a due item you mark it as not done, or if it fails If he
doesn't want to pay for any part you handle it the same way. it's his
responsibility to have things done. It's yours to do what he asks you to
do. You can advise him but ultimately it's his prerogative to take or leave
your advice.

On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Jay Stough  wrote:


I have a question about the 3 year air test required for dry, deluge and
preaction systems by NFPA 25 (2011 or 2014) 13.4.3.2.6 (preaction, deluge)
or 13.4.4.2.9 (dry systems).  I know I probably have the only customer 
that
does not address the leaks after a failed test, so how would you handle 
the

test?  We record it as a failed test.  Do you repeat the test annually
until you get a satisfactory test; or just repeat the test in three years?
After reading the above paragraphs, I could not find any guidance, in the
standard or the handbook.

*Jay Stough*
NICET IV LAYOUT
NICET III ITM
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon,
essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: 3 Year Air Test

[Douglas Hicks]

Some day, I may make my own forms.  NFPA 25-2011 Supplement 4 has a nice 
inspection format. NFPA 25-2014 Page 613 has commentary about the forms. 
AFSA and NFSA also have forms.  We usually ask for previous reports at new 
accounts.  There are things we do not do because they are not listed on the 
inspection report.  Things like checking the air compressor for oil, or 
water in the  tank, adequate signs, wrenches that fit the sprinkler heads. I 
send a copy of the previous report, so we can make sure all problems that 
are not fixed, get noted/   Our customers are willing to pay more for our 
work because we do not stop at the sprinkler room.


-Original Message- 
From: Dave

Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 3:48 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: 3 Year Air Test

Where do you find the forms for this inspection?

Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 18, 2015, at 3:52 AM, "Douglas Hicks"  wrote:

I list the deficiencies  on the report.   Then I reference  the reasons 
behind the requirement, quoting 13 & 25.  I may copy a page or two from 
the commentaries of 13 & 25. It also helps to enclose a copy of the 
service report with the job estimate.   We forget the people who make the 
decisions, have no concept of what we do.


-Original Message- From: rongreenman .
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2015 10:26 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: 3 Year Air Test

Does the owner pay you to do it annually, every three years, or at all.
Whatever you contract to do is what you do. You use the appropriate form
and if it's a due item you mark it as not done, or if it fails If he
doesn't want to pay for any part you handle it the same way. it's his
responsibility to have things done. It's yours to do what he asks you to
do. You can advise him but ultimately it's his prerogative to take or 
leave

your advice.


On Wed, Apr 15, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Jay Stough  wrote:

I have a question about the 3 year air test required for dry, deluge and
preaction systems by NFPA 25 (2011 or 2014) 13.4.3.2.6 (preaction, 
deluge)
or 13.4.4.2.9 (dry systems).  I know I probably have the only customer 
that
does not address the leaks after a failed test, so how would you handle 
the

test?  We record it as a failed test.  Do you repeat the test annually
until you get a satisfactory test; or just repeat the test in three 
years?

After reading the above paragraphs, I could not find any guidance, in the
standard or the handbook.

*Jay Stough*
NICET IV LAYOUT
NICET III ITM
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering Technology
Bates Technical College
1101 So. Yakima Ave.
Tacoma, WA 98405

rgreen...@bates.ctc.edu

http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/

253.680.7346
253.576.9700 (cell)

Member:
ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC

They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis 
Bacon,

essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626)

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering,
inventor and engineer (1876-1958)
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Re: Testing Questions

[Douglas Hicks]

Clarifications please Tom.  "Testing" as in Inspection, Testing and 
Maintenance or testing as in those who test the sprinkler heads, valves, 
pipe fittings and such.   If the former, I am guilty, as that is what we do.


-Original Message- 
From: Tom Duross

Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 4:35 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Testing Questions



Are there many testing companies belonging to this forum?
I took a brief hiatus so I'm not so sure currently.
I have some questions for the masses, some #14, #13 but mostly #25.
I don't want to waste the forum's time if this is really off-topic.

LGRS
Tom Duross

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ASCOA heads

[Douglas Hicks]

Is ASCOA  out of business?  I have an account with ASCOA painted/corroded heads 
that need replacement.  
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Flushing piping

[Douglas Hicks]

We have removed the end of line fittings on dry systems and found rust and 
other foreign material.  We have then flushed the lines.  Is there also a need 
to remove end of line fittings on wet systems?   

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Residential sprinkler IT&M ?

[Douglas Hicks]

We have several Residential group homes we inspect. The residents are 
developmentally challanged.  Some of these homes have basements , ground floor 
only, 2 story and 2 story with a basement.  Basements may or may not be 
occupied by residents at different times.   One has a fire alarm systems,  the 
rest have single station alarms.   About 1/2 have antifreeze systems, and no 
way to test the antifreeze protection.  Piping is plastic and copper, plastic 
and iron, or all copper.  None have isolation valves between the backflows and 
the downstream piping. 

  Is there a standard other than 25 for testing and inspection? 

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
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Re: False Ceiling formed by soffits (29" in height) has gratedpaneling to HVAC ductwork above regular ceiling.

[Douglas Hicks]

Is the egg-crate made of plastic?  If so, does that make a difference in the 
fire load? And is the fire considered a fire in motion?


-Original Message- 
From: AKS-Gmail-IMAP

Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2015 9:01 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: False Ceiling formed by soffits (29" in height) has 
gratedpaneling to HVAC ductwork above regular ceiling.


The center area of egg-crate is essentially not a ceiling. It is a large 
area of missing ceiling. You have a pocket which you would evaluate if the 
ceiling at the edge of the opening turned up as a vertical closure surface 
to meet the deck above. But in this case I bet there is no vertical closure. 
What you really have is the ceiling at the deck above with a series of 
obstructions for the sprinklers that should be up at the deck, including 
that perimeter ceiling. You have the exception for return air openings but 
there is no rule for quantifying the allowed size. Say you are the AHJ 
standing underneath this opening looking up through this large void where 
there is not a sprinkler in sight. There will be trouble if the first thing 
that comes to mind is, “Something is wrong here.” , instead of, “Oh I get 
it. It is an exempt return air opening.”.


What really is going on? Is this the ceiling solution for not replacing the 
grid on one side because the grids in the two rooms did not line up after 
the wall was removed? “Lets just leave a big hole with some crating like it 
was intended to be that way. Nobody will notice."


Allan Seidel
St. Louis, MO


On Oct 14, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Travis Mack, SET  wrote:

If I understand your question correctly, you can have sprinklers at the 
lower ceiling as long as it is protecting the floor space, since your 
space is <36" deep.  However, I would argue that you have an unprotected 
ceiling pocket and therefore, the QR reduction would not be applicable in 
that area.  I believe the grated panels you are mentioning are referred to 
as an egg-crate ceiling.


Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

http://www.mfpdesign.com
https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692
Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

On 10/14/2015 1:40 PM, Easter, Timothy wrote:
The facility is a non-combustible business occupancy. Basically, two 
office areas were converted into a small work out area by removing a wall 
and raising a section of the ceiling. The section that is higher has no 
sprinkler heads in it leaving a void above all other lower sprinkler 
heads. The sprinkler heads in the lower corners meet coverage on the 
horizontal space but leaves a 29" gap above the water spray to the 
ceiling above. The square measures 15'x10'x29" above the rest of the 
ceiling the room. Contractor has used grated panels leaving the space 
above the ceiling open to mechanical duct work above, all other walls go 
to the roof deck. My questions are:

1- DO WE NEED TO ADD SPRINKLER HEADS AT THE CEILING IN THE VOID?
My answer is per NFPA 13 section 8.6.4.1.1.3(B) a sprinkler head is not 
needed since can be considered flat ceiling.


2-CAN THE SPACE BE OPEN LIKE THAT TO THE MECHANICAL DUCT WORK?
My answer is the grated panels should be replaced with regular panels, 
however I cannot find a code reference.


Feel free to contact me with any questions.
Regards,

Timothy Easter, E.I.T.
Graduate Fire Protection Engineer
Direct: (757) 383-6217
timothy.eas...@aecom.com

AECOM
11832 Rock Landing Drive Suite, 306, Newport News, Virginia 23606
www.aecom.com



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