Slave Pallets
I have been asked by an AHJ why if you use a slave pallet, basically a piece of plywood, you have to add 20% to the design density, but if you have solid shelving less than 20 square feet you do not have to do anything. Looking for input. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
NFPA #30
Looking for input NFPA #30 2008 ed. We are looking at a building where the tenant want to store motor oil in 1 quart to 5 gal plastic containers on single and double row racks. Motor oil is a class IIIB combustible liquid, flash point 460°F (some higher some lower) Stored in plastic containers so we use Table 16.5.2.5 and protect using scheme A Scheme A call for barriers and provides figures for the installation, but also allows the barriers to be eliminated if the flashpoint is greater than 450°F. This option calls for a roof density of 0.30 plus in-rack demand. Now my questions. If we eliminate the barriers, do we move the in-racks down one level or eliminate the top level? As for the in-racks, do we still require 50psi at the heads and is it just one level as there are no barriers? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Flammable Liquids
Looking for additional information on protecting flammable liquids in a high building, 45' clear height We have group 1C and II liquids in 5 gal relieving style metal containers stored on single row racks to 16' All the information I have found limits the building height to 30', any ideas? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
In-Rack Sprinkler Control Valve
I just came from a building where the in-rack sprinklers are connected into the adjacent roof system. The building has two roof zones, north and south, the in-racks are in the north zone but connected into the south zone (no control valve at the connection point) I have never ever thought of doing this as it would send two different signals in the event of a fire, but cannot seem to find anything that says you can't do this, with the exception of alarm signals. Any comments on this arrangement? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: In-Rack Sprinkler Control Valve
The building is 70,000 sq ft and a multi-tenant building Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2016 2:19 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: In-Rack Sprinkler Control Valve Why is it zoned? Just because it's bigger than 52K? One big open space? Not trying to be a smart ass (or maybe I am) but the FD won't fight a fire in zone 2 that is happening in Zone 1 bec aide an annunciation says here, not there, and it sounds like they'd be able too see the fire on entry. On Wednesday, October 12, 2016, James Crawford wrote: I just came from a building where the in-rack sprinklers are connected into the adjacent roof system. The building has two roof zones, north and south, the in-racks are in the north zone but connected into the south zone (no control valve at the connection point) I have never ever thought of doing this as it would send two different signals in the event of a fire, but cannot seem to find anything that says you can’t do this, with the exception of alarm signals. Any comments on this arrangement? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Spirits Storage
We are getting more craft beer and craft distilleries going up in our area and as they continue to grow they need space to store the spirits to age. I have been going through the codes and can't seem to find how to protect spirits (over 20% alcohol) stored in wooden barrels in single, double and multi row racks. Can someone point me in the right direction Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Compact Mobile Storage Shelves
We have a client in a retail mall that uses compact mobile storage shelves at the back of their unit for product storage, I have looked through NFPA #13 (2013) and can only find information for an office application. (sec 20.6) Is there something I have missed that would allow this type of storage in an Ordinary Hazard application, retail store? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
NFPA #30 Rack Storage
Reference NFPA #30 (2008ed) Table 16.5.2.1 for non-relieving style containers for 5-60 gal containers on single and double row racks to 20'-0" So we are using 0.40/3000 plus in-racks based on layout E Layout E shall mean one line of in-rack sprinklers in the flue space at every level beginning above the first storage level above the floor and face sprinklers at the first storage level at each upright. In-racks sprinklers shall be spaced not more than 9 ft on centre and shall be staggered vertically. As this option is for single and double row racks, I am unsure about the layout for the single row racks as we normally do not see face sprinklers on single row racks. NFPA #30 does not provide any details on this option. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Artifical Turf
We are looking at a client the stores artificial turf in rolls and would like to store on racking. The racking is multi row racking and the turf is made from polyethylene. My first thought is to protect the same as carpet storage, or can it be protected as non-expanded group ""A" plastics. The existing sprinkler system is ESFR K17 operating at 52 psi. Thoughts Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Paint Booth Exhaust Stack
NFPA #33 (2016 ed) section 9.4.6 (2) Horizontal Exhaust ducts shall have sprinklers located on 12'-0" centers beginning no more that 6'-0" from the duct entrance. If the horizontal run is only 2'-0" do you require a sprinkler head to protect this section of the duct, (is there a minimum distance) Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Paint Booth Exhaust Stack
We have a head at the top but as it comes down they had to offset to miss a joist so there are 2 90 degree bends and a small pup piece that make up 24” center to center, just trying to see if we need a head in the offset. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 2:53 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Paint Booth Exhaust Stack My read on this would be that if you gave a sprinkler in the middle of a 24" horizontal duct you have 12" on center. Don't you need one at the top of each vertical run? On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 1:47 PM James Crawford wrote: NFPA #33 (2016 ed) section 9.4.6 (2) Horizontal Exhaust ducts shall have sprinklers located on 12’-0” centers beginning no more that 6’-0” from the duct entrance. If the horizontal run is only 2’-0” do you require a sprinkler head to protect this section of the duct, (is there a minimum distance) Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -- Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Paint Booth Exhaust Stack
The exhaust stack has a total length of 20'-0", there is a head at the top of the stack and heads behind the filters, the fan is located at the base of the stack. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Art Tiroly Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 2:56 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Paint Booth Exhaust Stack Is that the total duct length or is there a riser to the roof? Are there heads in the plenum behind the filter? Where is the exhaust fan? Art Tiroly ATCO Fire Protection/Tiroly 24400 Highland Rd CLE 44143 216-621-8899 216-570-7030 cell From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:47 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Paint Booth Exhaust Stack NFPA #33 (2016 ed) section 9.4.6 (2) Horizontal Exhaust ducts shall have sprinklers located on 12'-0" centers beginning no more that 6'-0" from the duct entrance. If the horizontal run is only 2'-0" do you require a sprinkler head to protect this section of the duct, (is there a minimum distance) Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai gn=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campai gn=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link> www.avast.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Dry Horizontal sidewalls
Reliable has an extended coverage dry side wall with upto 28’ in width spray, light hazard only https://www.reliablesprinkler.com/sites/default/files/products/bulletins/055%20Model%20DH80%20Dry.pdf Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Monday, March 20, 2017 9:36 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Dry Horizontal sidewalls I have never been able to find a dry sidewall that could cover more than 16’ in width. As far as turning a sidewall to direct the spray – I don’t know… I would definitely contact the manufacturer to ask about it. If you install the head outside of its listing then any problem that comes up with its performance will land on you. Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mick Dugal Sent: Monday, March 20, 2017 11:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Dry Horizontal sidewalls no? On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 9:37 AM, Mick Dugal wrote: I've got a question about installation of dry horizontal sidewall sprinklers. Is it permitted to install them at an angle? Not aiming up or down but side to side? I have an odd shaped canopy that I'm trying to cover with dry sprinklers but one particular area is lacking coverage. If I could angle the sprinkler towards this location (on the horizontal plane) I could cover it. Or, as a side question, does anyone know of an extended coverage dry barrel sidewall sprinkler with 20 ft spacing on the width? This would also solve my problem but options are limited on the dry sprinklers with extended coverage. Thanks, Mick ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Rubber Tire Storage
We have an existing building protected with ESFR K17 sprinkler heads operating at 52 psi for 35' storage in a 40' high building. They want to store rubber tires and are asking what they can do, I am using NFPA #13 (2013ed) for reference. Table 18.4(d) ESFR sprinkler protection for maximum 40' building would allow rubber tire storage on side in palletized portable racks, and that is all. They would like to use fixed racks without solid shelves, but I do not see this as an option, any ideas why this has been removed as the building gets higher? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Rubber Tire Storage
I was sure that was the reason I just thought that fixed rack storage would have been the first test done as this is provided for the lower height building 30’ and 35’ and the same storage height. I guess it just come down to money for testing Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Verhei Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 3:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Rubber Tire Storage Full scale fire tests? On Apr 11, 2017, at 15:24, James Crawford wrote: We have an existing building protected with ESFR K17 sprinkler heads operating at 52 psi for 35’ storage in a 40’ high building. They want to store rubber tires and are asking what they can do, I am using NFPA #13 (2013ed) for reference. Table 18.4(d) ESFR sprinkler protection for maximum 40’ building would allow rubber tire storage on side in palletized portable racks, and that is all. They would like to use fixed racks without solid shelves, but I do not see this as an option, any ideas why this has been removed as the building gets higher? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR Sprinkler spacing
Jerry The 11 can be used in order to miss joist obstruction but there are other restrictions that must be met to ensure that the heads on either side are not over spaced also. So if you need to go to the 11 for one head the next one cannot be over 9 keeping the total spacing for these 2 heads at 20 or (110 ft² + 90 ft²)/2=100 ft² They would rather have one head over spaced then obstructed, just not every head Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 9:31 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: ESFR Sprinkler spacing Im designing a system using the ESFR sprinkler. This building is over 30-0 tall, and on the cut sheet it says the max. sprinkler spacing is 10-0. Does this mean I cannot use the spacing allowancing indicated in NFPA 13-8.12.3.1 (3) or (4) (2013 ed.) spacing the sprinkler up to 11-0? Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection Corp. 2950 San Luis Rey Rd. Oceanside, CA 92058 (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Dip tanks
I have been looking through NFPA #34 (2007) to find out if there is a minimum or maximum size for a dip tank and the requirements for them We have a client with a small dip tank for cleaning parts prior to powder coating, the tank holds less than 2 gallons of flammable liquid and has a surface area of less than 2 ft². The tank is metal and has a lid when not in use. The tank is in a ventilated area, inside a paint booth. This is a small operation and the bake oven is also in the paint booth, the concern I see is the electrical associated with the bake ovens and the proximity to the dip tank. All the dipping is manual. The sequence is dipping, drying, power coating then baking, like I said small operation Is there anything I am missing. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Rubber Tire Storage
Reference is NFPA #13 (2013 ed) Table 18.4.(d) for a maximum 40'-0" high building there are 3 options. On side in palletized portable rack On tread or laced in open portable steel rack On tread, on side, and laced tires in open portable steel racks or palletized portable rack I was just wondering what happened to fixed steel racks or are they not allowed for buildings above 35'. I was checking in the FM data sheet and they do not seem to differentiate on the storage style, fixed, portable or palletized portable. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Flammable & Combustible storage
NFPA #30 (2008 ed) We have a client that has a Liquid warehouse (1,200 ft²) that did not require sprinkler protection by code, but did require sprinkler protection by the AHJ to get a building permit. The system is an Ordinary hazard group 2 dry system. They store class II and IIIB liquids in steel drums and Plastic IBC, originally storage was on the floor to 4-0 one drum or tote high. But as with all thing the company grows and they want to store higher. Table 12.6.2.2 Quantity Limitations for unprotected Liquid Warehouses will allow 10-0 of class II and 15-0 of class IIIB So my understanding is that unprotected is defined as not protected to NFPA #30, so based on Table 12.6.2.2 they can store these products to the heights noted even thou the area is sprinkled to NFPA #13 Ordinary hazard group 2. Am I missing something? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Flammable & Combustible storage
The maximum allowable quantities have been met, the storage is lower than the MAQ even with the increased storage height. If the building was not sprinkled or is sprinkled to light or ordinary hazard it would still be considered unprotected storage if I am reading the code right, and this is the problem that is stuck in my brain. Logic says that they should not be able to store this much flammable or combustible product in a building that is not sprinkled to allow it, but I cannot find anything that says they cannot. As long as the quantities are below the MAQ and the storage heights are below the maximum allowed I see nothing that requires the building to be sprinkled to NFPA #30 standard. Is my logic wrong? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 7:22 AM To: SprinklerFORUM Subject: Re: Flammable & Combustible storage ASSUMING that the maximum allowed limit has anything to do with defining the applicable design basis is flawed. Otherwise, this logic would mean that a light hazard classification is adequate. Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives On May 23, 2017, at 4:04 PM, James Crawford wrote: NFPA #30 (2008 ed) We have a client that has a Liquid warehouse (1,200 ft²) that did not require sprinkler protection by code, but did require sprinkler protection by the AHJ to get a building permit. The system is an Ordinary hazard group 2 dry system. They store class II and IIIB liquids in steel drums and Plastic IBC, originally storage was on the floor to 4’-0” one drum or tote high. But as with all thing the company grows and they want to store higher. Table 12.6.2.2 Quantity Limitations for unprotected Liquid Warehouses will allow 10’-0” of class II and 15’-0” of class IIIB So my understanding is that unprotected is defined as not protected to NFPA #30, so based on Table 12.6.2.2 they can store these products to the heights noted even thou the area is sprinkled to NFPA #13 Ordinary hazard group 2. Am I missing something? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email <mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web <http://www.phaserfire.ca/> www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list <mailto:Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
NFPA #30 In-Racks
NFPA #30 3008 ed. We have worked through the tables and have determined that we need layout F (6) Section 16.5.1.10 (6) Layout F shall mean one line of in-rack sprinklers in the flue space at every other storage level above the first storage level and face sprinklers at the first storage level at each upright, in-rack sprinklers shall be spaced not more than 10 ft on center and staggered vertically. So we have 5 levels of storage or 4 beam levels, based on the above I would normally put the flue and face sprinklers above the first level of storage and the second level of flue sprinklers at the 3rd beam level. But I find the wording in the code to suggest that the face are above the 1st level of storage and the flue sprinklers are at the 2nd and 4th storage level. As some of the layouts designs talk about the floor level and others talk about the first storage level, just looking for a little direction. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Lithium Batteries
We have someone that has a 20' x 8' x8' metal shipping container in their warehouse that they use to test lithium batteries, the AHJ want them to sprinkler this space, but the application of water to the batteries is not the best solution. Any ideas out there? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Whiskey in Wooden barrels
We have been asked to look at protecting a small distillery that will be storing or aging in wooden barrels stored on multi row racking. As whiskey is more than 20% alcohol I assume we go to flammable liquids NFPA #30, but they have nothing for protecting product stored in wooden barrels. Can someone point me in the right direction Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Server Rooms
We have an AHJ that we are dealing with, that when the architect names a small room as a server room, they are going to NFPA #13 (2016) section 22.14 Protection of Information Technology Equipment. Most of the concerns seem to be from a small business taking a space and have a room for a special computer or a small server bank, as most businesses now seem to require. NFPA #75 chapter 3 Definitions 3.3.10 Information Technology Equipment Systems: Any electronic digital or analog computer, along with all peripheral support, memory, programming, or other direct associated equipment, records, storage, and activities. Base on this definition every office that has a computer in it is an Information Technology Equipment room, where do we draw the line. So I guess my question is when is a room with a computer in it a server room and when is it just a room, or maybe when does a computer become a server? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Server Rooms
More when we need to use the separate valve Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 12:33 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Server Rooms Is the main concern the need for a separate valve? Matt From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 2:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Server Rooms We have an AHJ that we are dealing with, that when the architect names a small room as a server room, they are going to NFPA #13 (2016) section 22.14 Protection of Information Technology Equipment. Most of the concerns seem to be from a small business taking a space and have a room for a special computer or a small server bank, as most businesses now seem to require. NFPA #75 chapter 3 Definitions 3.3.10 Information Technology Equipment Systems: Any electronic digital or analog computer, along with all peripheral support, memory, programming, or other direct associated equipment, records, storage, and activities. Base on this definition every office that has a computer in it is an Information Technology Equipment room, where do we draw the line. So I guess my question is when is a room with a computer in it a server room and when is it just a room, or maybe when does a computer become a server? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: [EXTERNAL] Server Rooms
The room is normally unoccupied Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Server Rooms Well, a server room would be unoccupied the majority of the time, right? From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 12:20 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] Server Rooms We have an AHJ that we are dealing with, that when the architect names a small room as a server room, they are going to NFPA #13 (2016) section 22.14 Protection of Information Technology Equipment. Most of the concerns seem to be from a small business taking a space and have a room for a special computer or a small server bank, as most businesses now seem to require. NFPA #75 chapter 3 Definitions 3.3.10 Information Technology Equipment Systems: Any electronic digital or analog computer, along with all peripheral support, memory, programming, or other direct associated equipment, records, storage, and activities. Base on this definition every office that has a computer in it is an Information Technology Equipment room, where do we draw the line. So I guess my question is when is a room with a computer in it a server room and when is it just a room, or maybe when does a computer become a server? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Multi Row Racking Calculation
We are having a discussion in our office regarding the design area for multi row racking for the in-rack sprinklers We have aerosols stored in 3 deep multi row racks NFPA #30B (2007) Figure 6.3.2.7(b) We have 4 levels of in-racks spaced every 8' and in every flue space, with a line feeding each flue space or 4 lines. Design calls for 18 heads @ 30 gpm, 6 on each of the top 3 levels. Discussion is do we calculate 6 heads on one line for 3 levels or do we group them and do 2 heads on 3 lines for three levels? comments Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Multi Row Racking Calculation
But section 6.3.2.9.1 says the hydraulically most remote Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of fpdcdes...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 4:31 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Re: Multi Row Racking Calculation Hydraulically most demanding? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) On Aug 23, 2017 at 7:20 PM, mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca> > wrote: We are having a discussion in our office regarding the design area for multi row racking for the in-rack sprinklers We have aerosols stored in 3 deep multi row racks NFPA #30B (2007) Figure 6.3.2.7(b) We have 4 levels of in-racks spaced every 8’ and in every flue space, with a line feeding each flue space or 4 lines. Design calls for 18 heads @ 30 gpm, 6 on each of the top 3 levels. Discussion is do we calculate 6 heads on one line for 3 levels or do we group them and do 2 heads on 3 lines for three levels? comments Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: [FWD: CMSA Sprinklers and Isle Widths]
John I forgot to mention that you cannot use ESFR for this protection scheme as they are not allowed on dry systems, and this is a freezer Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of j...@crwnfire.com Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [FWD: CMSA Sprinklers and Isle Widths] Original Message Subject: CMSA Sprinklers and Isle Widths From: "John Paulsen" < <mailto:j...@crwnfire.com> j...@crwnfire.com> Date: Wed, August 23, 2017 5:33 pm To: "'Sprinklerforum'" < <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> Good Afternoon Foramites: We are working on a freezer food storage project utilizing K 16.8 CMSA sprinklers on double interlock pre-action systems. The deck height is 40’, max storage is 35’ and protecting a Class II commodity. Question #1: The owner wants to reduce the isle width from 10’-6” to 6’-6” and he believes this has an impact on the CMSA spacing. As far as I can tell from Table 16.3.1.1, isle widths greater than 4’ are permitted without changing the 10’X10” spacing, correct? Question #2: Now that I’ve starred at Table 16.3.1.1 (2013) for the last hour, it appears to me that a single row of rack sprinklers are required at 20’ with a horizontal barrier when using CMSA sprinklers, correct? Table 16.3.2.1 only serves to confuse me more. It looks like to me that rack sprinklers can be eliminated when you go to ESFR sprinklers in accordance with Table 16.3.3.1 Thanks, John Paulsen – SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P – 614-782-2438 F – 614-782-2374 C – 614-348-8206 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: [FWD: CMSA Sprinklers and Isle Widths]
John I believe the testing of the CMDA heads for this Table are based on a 4’-0” aisle, so any aisle with more than 4’-0” would not change the spacing of the sprinkler heads. Table 16.3.1.1 is for CMDA sprinkler heads and depending on the option you choose there is a requirement for the solid shelf, but there are many options c to g . As in all design it is finding the one that works and is the most cost effective and meets the client’s requirements. They may not want a barrier in their racking. You mentioned CMSA sprinkler protection so you would not use Table 16.3.1.1 you would use Table 16.3.2.1 Table 16.3.2.1 is for CMSA single, double and multi row racks, you said you were protecting class II stored to 35’ in a 40’ high building in a freezer so I assume you are using the K16.8 head, this has no in-rack requirement but a delivery time is required. Good luck hope this helps Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of j...@crwnfire.com Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 5:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: [FWD: CMSA Sprinklers and Isle Widths] Original Message Subject: CMSA Sprinklers and Isle Widths From: "John Paulsen" < <mailto:j...@crwnfire.com> j...@crwnfire.com> Date: Wed, August 23, 2017 5:33 pm To: "'Sprinklerforum'" < <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> Good Afternoon Foramites: We are working on a freezer food storage project utilizing K 16.8 CMSA sprinklers on double interlock pre-action systems. The deck height is 40’, max storage is 35’ and protecting a Class II commodity. Question #1: The owner wants to reduce the isle width from 10’-6” to 6’-6” and he believes this has an impact on the CMSA spacing. As far as I can tell from Table 16.3.1.1, isle widths greater than 4’ are permitted without changing the 10’X10” spacing, correct? Question #2: Now that I’ve starred at Table 16.3.1.1 (2013) for the last hour, it appears to me that a single row of rack sprinklers are required at 20’ with a horizontal barrier when using CMSA sprinklers, correct? Table 16.3.2.1 only serves to confuse me more. It looks like to me that rack sprinklers can be eliminated when you go to ESFR sprinklers in accordance with Table 16.3.3.1 Thanks, John Paulsen – SET Crown Fire System Design 6282 Seeds Rd. Grove City, OH 43123 P – 614-782-2438 F – 614-782-2374 C – 614-348-8206 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Racking Question
We had a set of double row racks with a 12" flue space, this has been changed due to seismic requirements to 34". Is this still a double row rack or is it now multi row racking or is it two single row racks? Longitudinal space is over 24", but total racking width is less than 12'-0", the 34" is not an aisle as we have structural columns in this space. -- | | 28" 34" - | | 28" ----- Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Racking Question
The racking is for flammable and combustible liquids and are stored to 20'-0" Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Anthony Carrizosa [mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com] Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 7:15 AM To: 'James Crawford'; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Racking Question James Looking at your email it appears that you have 28" shelves separated by a 34" isle. Look at the definition of shelf storage 3.9.2.6. If this is the case then you would design for storage on shelving not racks. You don't say what your commodity is or how high the storage is but I would assume less than 12'. Perhaps you will find your storage arrangement in chapter 14. Good Luck. Anthony Carrizosa Fire Protection Division OFFICE: 253-872-7222 Cell: 206-679-5283 cid:703393518@19082013-11F7 From: James Crawford [mailto:jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 2:22 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Racking Question We had a set of double row racks with a 12" flue space, this has been changed due to seismic requirements to 34". Is this still a double row rack or is it now multi row racking or is it two single row racks? Longitudinal space is over 24", but total racking width is less than 12'-0", the 34" is not an aisle as we have structural columns in this space. -- | | 28" 34" - | | 28" ----- Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Commodities
We have a client the stores fresh fish in Styrofoam coolers for shipping.. The way I see it we are protecting the Styrofoam cooler more that the fish, but I see very little that provides protection for an expanded Group "A" plastic product stored on multi row racking in a refrigerated cooler. Suggestion Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Spacing EC heads per FM 3-26
You would use the 16'x16' once you go over the 14' mark Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken Sent: Friday, September 22, 2017 9:08 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Spacing EC heads per FM 3-26 I have a job where I'm using EC heads per FM 3-26 table 2 in a HC-3 hazard. When calc'n EC normally I've always used the design criteria recommendations per the cut sheet (ex. for 14x14 spacing use this psi / gpm etc.) But in this this situation would it be recommend to stick to the 14x14 or 16x16 spacing, or could I use the demand requirements for how the head is space, say 15x15? Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection Corp. 2950 San Luis Rey Rd. Oceanside, CA 92058 (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Barns & Stables
We were asked to have a look a sprinkling a horse barn and thought that should not be a problem, but when we got to site there was a large storage of hay. NFPA #13 has barns and stables as Ordinary hazard group 2, but I assume only a small amount of hay bales is expected. Hay bales are currently about 16'-0" high by about 30' deep and 20' wide. One pile. Anyone out there that has protected barns that could provide a little guidance. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
compressor size
Is there an easy equation out there to see how many CFM I require to fill a dry system, I am sizing an air compressor and would like to ensure I do not over or undersize it. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Obstructions with CMSA
Looking for some input as some of the wording does not make sense. NFPA #13 (2013 ed) CMSA Section 8.11.5.3.4 Where the bottom of the obstruction is located 24in or more below the sprinkler deflector, the following shall occur: This would seem to infer that all the items listed must be met, but for item 2b and 3b you require a sprinkler head under the obstruction, so if you put a head under the obstruction do you still need to meet Item 1 and center the obstruction between heads. This does not make sense. Opinions please as we have an AHJ that is asking for the obstruction to be relocated and for the head under it. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Cartoned Expanded Group "A" Plastics
There does not seem to be a protection scheme for cartoned expanded Group "A" plastics for buildings above 32'-0" ceiling heights, but there is now one for exposed expanded Group "A" plastics for building up to 40'-0" ceiling heights (NFPA #13 2016 ed). Have I missed something or do you used exposed expanded to protect cartoned expanded and if so why not state that. We have AHJs that if the code does not provide a protection scheme you cannot store that product even if there are schemes to protect a more hazardous product. Comments please. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Cartoned Expanded Group "A" Plastics
Thanks Craig I normally use FM data sheets as back up information or design criteria if there is nothing in the NFPA standards, I just found it strange that there was information for exposed but not for cartoned. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 12:14 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Cartoned Expanded Group "A" Plastics When the NFPA Standards do not specifically address a particular situation, it is common to reach out to other recognized industry standards for guidance. FM Data Sheets often provide that info or you may find other Standards or Industry Practices/Guidelines that address a unique condition that NFPA does not. Within the NFPA Standards is section 1.5, Equivalency. Within this section there is a provision for use of alternate methods or materials which can be substantiated to achieve an intended equal or better level of protection when presented and accepted by the AHJ. I have never had an AHJ reject an alternative methodology when citing a known industry resource. Another avenue is to research the various sprinkler manufacturers to see what new offering they may have recently had Listed and/or Approved. There are times when a new sprinkler is released for sale and it is not included in the current NFPA offering. Again, present that as your "equivalency" to the AHJ. As far as using a "higher hazard" criteria to protect a perceived "lesser hazard", well, could you unequivocally defend that decision? It's not a matter of logic or gut feelings, it has to have some basis in actual testing or calculations to prove the concept. The differentiating factor dealing with cartooned versus exposed is that, simply put, cartoned criteria will assume absorption of sprinkler discharge to help create a delay in ignition of the contents due to the soaked carton acting as somewhat of a heatsink, preventing direct contact of the plastic commodity with the flame front. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME CH2M 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 CH2MHILL Extension 77540 craig.pr...@ch2m.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Cartoned Expanded Group "A" Plastics [EXTERNAL] There does not seem to be a protection scheme for cartoned expanded Group "A" plastics for buildings above 32'-0" ceiling heights, but there is now one for exposed expanded Group "A" plastics for building up to 40'-0" ceiling heights (NFPA #13 2016 ed). Have I missed something or do you used exposed expanded to protect cartoned expanded and if so why not state that. We have AHJs that if the code does not provide a protection scheme you cannot store that product even if there are schemes to protect a more hazardous product. Comments please. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
S & L Rule
We have been having a discussion in the office about the S&L rule for spacing of sprinkler heads. We received a sprinkler drawing with some spacing that we do not agree with, see below, but can find no specific direction in NFPA #13 (2013) that says it is wrong. Basic situation we have a small building with a 20 bay and a 30 bay. Ordinary hazard spacing. For the 20 wide bay, we have2 lines spaced at 10 apart , so we have 5 off the wall then 10 between the next line and 5 to the beam line, the heads are spaced at 13 along these lines. Then we have a 30 bay where we have 2 lines spaced 15 apart, 76 off the beam then 15 between the heads then 76 to the wall, heads are spaced at 8 along the line So our discussion is the sprinkler lines along the beam line which would be 5-0 plus 7-6 for 12-6 between the line. The sprinkler heads in the 20 bay are spaced at 13-0, so if we use the S&L rule these heads are spaced at 12-6 x 13-0 or 162.6 ft². Is this correct? And yes I know we could space the 30 bay with 3 lines at 10 apart and that is what I would do but it is not our design. Comments Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: S & L Rule
Assumed a flat ceiling Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 2:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: S & L Rule Is the spacing along the branchline measured along the floor or the roof pitch? Best regards, Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS Burtell Fire_Small Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text 406-545-0784 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 Email: j...@burtellfire.com Web Site: <http://www.burtellfire.com/> http://www.burtellfire.com “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” NOTICE: The information contained in this e-mail transmission is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail transmission as well as its attachments without reading or saving it in any manner. Thank you. On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 3:00 PM, James Crawford wrote: We have been having a discussion in the office about the S&L rule for spacing of sprinkler heads. We received a sprinkler drawing with some spacing that we do not agree with, see below, but can find no specific direction in NFPA #13 (2013) that says it is wrong. Basic situation we have a small building with a 20’ bay and a 30’ bay. Ordinary hazard spacing. For the 20’ wide bay, we have2 lines spaced at 10’ apart , so we have 5’ off the wall then 10’ between the next line and 5’ to the beam line, the heads are spaced at 13’ along these lines. Then we have a 30’ bay where we have 2 lines spaced 15’ apart, 7’6 off the beam then 15’ between the heads then 7’6 to the wall, heads are spaced at 8’ along the line So our discussion is the sprinkler lines along the beam line which would be 5’-0” plus 7’-6” for 12’-6” between the line. The sprinkler heads in the 20’ bay are spaced at 13’-0”, so if we use the S&L rule these heads are spaced at 12’-6” x 13’-0” or 162.6 ft². Is this correct? And yes I know we could space the 30’ bay with 3 lines at 10’ apart and that is what I would do but it is not our design. Comments Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: S & L Rule
The building is 120’ long and has multiple bays, just using the 2 bays as an example of the spacing. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Charles Bamford Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:55 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: S & L Rule 30' x 20' = 600 sq ft 600/ 130 = 4.6 round up 6 sprinkler heads Run Branch lines perpendicular to what you are hanging from. 5' off wall 10' between heads for 100 sq ft per sprinkler head or 15' x 6'8" (3'4" off wall) with smaller sq.ft. spacing you get less GPM per head in calcs. so if its .20 density you flow 20 gpm/hd (if 120sqft/hd you would flow 24gpm) Merry Christmas Chuck Bamford On Thursday, December 21, 2017 02:01:03 PM PST, James Crawford wrote: We have been having a discussion in the office about the S&L rule for spacing of sprinkler heads. We received a sprinkler drawing with some spacing that we do not agree with, see below, but can find no specific direction in NFPA #13 (2013) that says it is wrong. Basic situation we have a small building with a 20’ bay and a 30’ bay. Ordinary hazard spacing. For the 20’ wide bay, we have2 lines spaced at 10’ apart , so we have 5’ off the wall then 10’ between the next line and 5’ to the beam line, the heads are spaced at 13’ along these lines. Then we have a 30’ bay where we have 2 lines spaced 15’ apart, 7’6 off the beam then 15’ between the heads then 7’6 to the wall, heads are spaced at 8’ along the line So our discussion is the sprinkler lines along the beam line which would be 5’-0” plus 7’-6” for 12’-6” between the line. The sprinkler heads in the 20’ bay are spaced at 13’-0”, so if we use the S&L rule these heads are spaced at 12’-6” x 13’-0” or 162.6 ft². Is this correct? And yes I know we could space the 30’ bay with 3 lines at 10’ apart and that is what I would do but it is not our design. Comments Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Rubber Tire Storage
NFPA #13 (2013) is my reference. I have an AHJ that is telling me that Rubber Tires are classified as a Group "A" plastic for the purpose of commodity classifications. I have informed him that Rubber Tires are a commodity classification on their own, but he disagrees, he says there are a synthetic rubber so are a Group "A" plastic. I have shown him the Table A5.6.3 for Commodity classifications in NFPA #13 where rubber tires are not mentioned and chapter 18 that deals with Rubber Tire storage but he still disagrees. Any suggestions? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Tank Storage
I was asked to do a review of a building that collects waste from commercial grease traps. They take this waste back to their warehouse and put it in large tanks (120,000 liters) to allow separation. 75% water, 20% vegetable oils and animal fats, 5% solids. Once separated the waste materials are then disposed of separately. I am trying to classify the mixture that is stored in the tanks, but can find no direction in NFPA #13, but due to the concentration of water to oils I am leaning toward a non-combustible liquid. But that being said I can find no direction on tank storage for a non-combustible liquid. Any help out there Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Glazing Protection with standard spray
We have always addressed this under an alternative solution as the glazing and doors are normally in a rated assembly and as such an alternative solution was required by the architect and provided by a fire protection engineer or code consultant. We would have WS on the glazing and QR pendants over the doors with baffles between the SSP and WS Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Stossel Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 3:17 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Glazing Protection with standard spray Not sure if this will help you in anyway, but what about section D.1.1.1.1 in NFPA 13. Mike Stossel SET 400dpiLogoCropped 36 Barren Road East Stroudsburg, PA 18302 Office: 973-670-2627 <mailto:m...@knssprinkler.com> m...@knssprinkler.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 6:11 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Glazing Protection with standard spray The door is part of the assembly but, I just found out this is the area where they were intending to Std Spray in lieu of WS. Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection (760) 722-2722 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 3:06 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Glazing Protection with standard spray There isn't any prescribed protection for door glazing. There is a window sprinkler, I think it was by Tyco that when installed per its listing was considered equivalent to 2-hour protection but that was for fixed glazing and with some restrictions. Is this door part of a fire rated assembly or area separation? Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 Direct Extension 77540 CH2M is now Jacobs. 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 craig.pr...@ch2m.com <http://www.jacobs.com/> http://www.jacobs.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Glazing Protection with standard spray [EXTERNAL] Okay, Is been about a decade since I've dealt glazing protection. Is there any information on protecting window with standard spray sprinklers. I've been told this was direction was approved by the AHJ. Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection (760) 722-2722 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Butane
I am looking at a space for a client that want to store butane, a lot of butane. I have been looking through NFPA #30 & #32 for some guidance but I am still unsure, as one of the MSDS sheets says to protect it as outlined in NFPA #30 but my brain is saying it is more like a Level 3 Aerosol. The building is protected with ESFR K17 @ 35psi Any words of wisdom out there? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180320/15b72ced/attachment.html> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Butane
Small metal containers in cardboard boxes on pallets then stored on single and double row racks Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 12:39 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Butane In what type of containers is the butane? How will it be packaged or stored? Cartoned, Racks, palletized, etc.? Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead/SME Direct - 864.920.7540 Fax - 864.920.7129 Direct Extension 77540 CH2M is now Jacobs. 200 Verdae Blvd. Greenville, SC 29607 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.jacobs.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of James Crawford Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 3:23 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Butane [EXTERNAL] I am looking at a space for a client that want to store butane, a lot of butane. I have been looking through NFPA #30 & #32 for some guidance but I am still unsure, as one of the MSDS sheets says to protect it as outlined in NFPA #30 but my brain is saying it is more like a Level 3 Aerosol. The building is protected with ESFR K17 @ 35psi Any words of wisdom out there? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20180320/15b72ced/attachment.html> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Butane
Yes they are pressurized Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Fpdcdesign Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 1:32 PM To: Sprinklerforum Subject: Re: Butane Are the containers pressurized? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 (ofc) 860-553-3553 (fax) 860-608-4559 (cell) > > On Mar 20, 2018 at 3:46 PM, mailto:rongreen...@gmail.com)> wrote: > > > > Not to sound like I'm diminishing the danger of large quantities of > stored butane, and in fact I might be suggesting it is more dangerous > than an aerosol, but the definition of aerosol is: A gaseous > suspension of fine solid or liquid particles. Butane boils at 30.2 F > so at near or above freezing loose butane would be a gas. That might help in yoir search. > > > > Ron Greenman > > rongreen...@gmail.com > > 253.576.9700 > > The Universe is monstrously indifferent to the presence of man. > -Werner Herzog, screenwriter, film director, author, actor and opera > director (1942-) > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 12:38 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL > > wrote: > > > In what type of containers is the butane? > > > > How will it be packaged or stored? Cartoned, Racks, palletized, etc.? > > > > > > > > > > Craig L. Prahl > > Fire Protection Group Lead/SME > > Direct - 864.920.7540 > > Fax - 864.920.7129 > > Direct Extension 77540 > > CH2M is now Jacobs. > > 200 Verdae Blvd. > > Greenville, SC 29607 > > craig.pr...@ch2m.com > > http://www.jacobs.com > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-bounces@lists.firesprinkler. > > org] On Behalf Of James Crawford > > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 3:23 PM > > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > Subject: Butane [EXTERNAL] > > > > I am looking at a space for a client that want to store butane, a > > lot of butane. > > > > > > > > I have been looking through NFPA #30 & #32 for some guidance but > > I am still unsure, as one of the MSDS sheets says to protect it as > > outlined in NFPA #30 but my brain is saying it is more like a Level 3 Aerosol. > > > > > > > > The building is protected with ESFR K17 @ 35psi > > > > > > > > Any words of wisdom out there? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > > > > > > > James Crawford > > > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > Web www.phaserfire.ca > > > > > > > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > > scrubbed... > > URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/ > > sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180320/ > > 15b72ced/attachment.html> > > ___ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > > org > > ___ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > > org > > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was > scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org/attachments/20180320/18030e92/attachment.html> > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org /attachments/20180320/bc50019b/attachment.html> ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Water Delivery Times
I have just been going through FM Data Sheet 8-9 for storage in a cooler/freezer system and they are asking for a 20 second water delivery time for a dry system, is this from the activation of the heads or the activation of the dry pipe valve? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca Web www.phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Listed Anti-freeze
Has anyone heard of a listed anti-freeze yet. We have a dust collection system with spark arrestors and cyclones that are all located outside. Normally we would use an anti-freeze system but as I cannot find a listed product, is the only option to heat trace and insulate the piping? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
NFPA #30 in-racks
We have a project that has one section of double row racking where they are storing motor oils in plastic containers, one side would be protected by scheme "A" and the other by scheme "B", based on size of containers being stored. Scheme "A" is every other row and scheme "B" is every row. My question is, because they are back to back would we then protect both sides as if they are scheme "B" and do every level, or do we protect each side based on the commodity being stored? Note beam heights are at different elevation for each side. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
NFPA #30 in-racks
We have a project that has one section of double row racking where they are storing motor oils in plastic containers, one side would be protected by scheme "A" and the other by scheme "B", based on size of containers being stored. Scheme "A" is every other row and scheme "B" is every row. My question is, because they are back to back would we then protect both sides as if they are scheme "B" and do every level, or do we protect each side based on the commodity being stored? Note beam heights are at different elevation for each side. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Rack storage question
I have always been under the assumption that it was up to the designer to pick the option that worked the best, as available water pressure, owner requirements and racking design would all play on which option to choose. Some work better than others. Just my opinion Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Dewayne Martinez Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 9:05 AM To: SprinklerFORUM Subject: FW: Rack storage question Any takers on this one? *From:* Dewayne Martinez [mailto:dmarti...@total-mechanical.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, January 13, 2015 3:43 PM *To:* 'sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org' *Subject:* Rack storage question NFPA 13 (07ed) Section 17.3.4.1 I have rack storage of plastic over 25ft high without solid shelves, double row racks,8ft wide aisles. It seems to comply with both 17.3.4.1.1 and 17.3.4.1.4, do I just pick which one works out best for me? Thanks, Dewayne ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Listed Anti-freeze
Spark detection system needs water instantly, there can be no delay. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 7:25 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Listed Anti-freeze What about a dry or preaction system? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 www.fpdc.com > On Jan 9, 2015, at 12:19 PM, James Crawford wrote: > > Has anyone heard of a listed anti-freeze yet. > > > > We have a dust collection system with spark arrestors and cyclones > that are all located outside. Normally we would use an anti-freeze > system but as I cannot find a listed product, is the only option to > heat trace and insulate the piping? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
NFPA #30 Rack Storage
Reference NFPA #30 2008 ed. We have class 1B & 1C in 45 gal metal drums non-relieving, stored on single row racks to 20' Table 16-5.2.1 Ceiling density of 0.40 over 3000 sq.ft plus in-racks following layout "E" Section 16-5.1.10(5) layout E shall mean one line of in-rack sprinklers in the flue space at every storage level above the floor and face sprinklers at the first storage level at each rack upright. In-racks sprinklers shall be spaced not more than 9 ft on center and staggered vertically. My question is if I have single row racks I have no flue space, so I would run the piping in the rack, but do I still need the face sprinklers? I have never done face sprinklers on single row racks. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Fit fittings
2" Fitt had 2 tightening nuts on each opening end. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2015 7:59 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Fit fittings Did 2" Fit fittings have 2 tightening nuts or 4? Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR Table 17.2.3.1 2013
Table 17.2.3.1 2013 ed 25' storage in a 30' high building has ESFR K25 @ 15 psi, if you go to the 40' high building only the K14 & K17 are listed Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: ESFR Table 17.2.3.1 2013 Forgot to add, I should have mentioned the heights in the first post. Thanks, Gregg Fontes Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. 209-334-9119 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 2:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: ESFR Table 17.2.3.1 2013 Turn the page Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 12, 2015, at 4:33 PM, "Gregg Fontes" wrote: > > Why does the table not list/show the K25 ESFR fire sprinkler protection of a exposed nonexpanded plastic and cartoned expanded plastics? > > Thanks, > Gregg Fontes > Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. > 209-334-9119 > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR Table 17.2.3.1 2013
My error looking at Cartoned not exposed Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Gregg Fontes Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 3:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: ESFR Table 17.2.3.1 2013 Forgot to add, I should have mentioned the heights in the first post. Thanks, Gregg Fontes Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. 209-334-9119 -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 2:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: ESFR Table 17.2.3.1 2013 Turn the page Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 12, 2015, at 4:33 PM, "Gregg Fontes" wrote: > > Why does the table not list/show the K25 ESFR fire sprinkler protection of a exposed nonexpanded plastic and cartoned expanded plastics? > > Thanks, > Gregg Fontes > Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. > 209-334-9119 > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
ESFR Sprinkler Heads
We are doing an addition to an existing warehouse, the existing warehouse is protected with ESFR K14 uprights, since the building was constructed the AHJ has dropped the water pressures in the area by 10 psi. Due to the pressure drop I cannot use the K14 heads for the addition, can you mix ESFR sprinkler heads in the same warehouse area, I would need K17 heads for the addition, The addition would be open to the existing warehouse space. Or do I need to change all the heads in the existing warehouse to match? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR Sprinkler Heads
Thanks Roland The AHJ has impose a greater reduction and if I use the new pressures the existing system is 3 psi short. My concern with using two different K factor heads is the overlap area where two different pressures would be required causing over discharge on the K17 heads. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 11:05 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: ESFR Sprinkler Heads you can have multiple design basis covering different portions of a building. They could present different K-factors or types of sprinklers. There are explicit requirements that address the interface between them. What do you mean the AHJ has dropped the pressure? Does that mean the water purveyor has dropped the pressure to the area or that the AHJ has imposed a greater reduction on the actual supply as a safety factor. In other words, is the existing system still providing adequate protection (not an issue for imposed reductions) ? Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Mar 19, 2015, at 9:40 AM, James Crawford wrote: > > We are doing an addition to an existing warehouse, the existing > warehouse is protected with ESFR K14 uprights, since the building was > constructed the AHJ has dropped the water pressures in the area by 10 psi. > > > > Due to the pressure drop I cannot use the K14 heads for the addition, > can you mix ESFR sprinkler heads in the same warehouse area, I would > need K17 heads for the addition, The addition would be open to the > existing warehouse space. Or do I need to change all the heads in the > existing warehouse to match? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Mattresses
Looking input We have a client that manufactures and stores mattresses, the raw material is straight forward. The finished product has always been a bit of a disagreement in our office. NFPA #13 Table A.5.6.3.2 has mattresses under class 3 (standard box spring) and group "A" plastics (foam in finished form) Having just purchased a new mattress and box spring I understand that most new mattresses have a small amount of foam in them and there are ones now that are all foam. So my question is would a standard box spring mattress with a foam top, be protected as a class 3 commodity or a Group "A" plastic? I have always protected as an expanded Group "A" plastic. Agree or disagree Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
PODs Storage
I know this has been discussed before but I am looking for assistance. We have a client that want to store personal storage bins, they are 6 sided plywood boxes, 7'8"'x7'8"x7'8"', they are used to store customer's personal belongings. So could contain almost anything. (no flammable liquids allowed) They want to store them 4 high The building is currently protected with ESFR K25 @ 25 psi Due to the construction of the boxes and storage arrangement, I am unsure that the ESFR will provide the required protection, but am unable to find anything in the code about a protection scheme. Any help is appreciated Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: absorbant in plastic drums
Powder in a paper bag is a class 2 Put it into a plastic barrel, similar to a plastic pallet you would increase two classes to a class 4 commodity Class 4 contains within itself or it's packaging an appreciable amount (5 to 15% by weight or 5 to 25% by volume) of group A plastics. What is the weight of an empty barrel? Seems to fall in this range. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 9:02 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: absorbant in plastic drums The plastic drum will end up driving the design criteria, so treat it like Group A plastics. Craig L. Prahl Fire Protection Group Lead CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29303 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 craig.pr...@ch2m.com -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd - Work Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 11:09 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: absorbant in plastic drums I am looking at a job where the product being stored is a granulated absorbent (think stuff to put on concrete to absorb oil) in 55 gallon plastic drums. New product, not used. I am teetering between Class IV and Group A Plastic. Has anyone else working on something like this? Sent from my iPad ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: flue space sprinkler spacing
For storage upto 25' use table 16.2.1.4.2.1 and for storage over 25' use table 16.3.1.1 Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jamie Seidl Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 2:04 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: flue space sprinkler spacing For the life of me I cannot find the maximum horizontal spacing for in rack flue sprinklers. The project is under NFPA 13 2013, Commodity Class III single & double row racks no solid shelves storage to 30', building height to 36' and I am using table 16.3.4.1.1.1(c). I know the diagram states that the storage cube is 4 to 5 feet, and shows sprinklers at every other cube, which would be 10' on center, but I thought there was something in black and white, or actual words about that. I'd prefer not to infer. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks again for your help, Jamie Seidl ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
ESFR & QR heads
We have a large manufacturing building, no interior walls, we are looking at and the owner has asked for OH2, then they have come back and requested an area that they now wish to store 30' high with no in-rack protection. Storage can be done with ESFR, the remainder of the building can be done with QR brass uprights. Question is do I require a draft curtain between the ESFR and the QR heads. NFPA #13 (2013) 8.4.6.4 states the requirement for standard response heads, Just want to confirm. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: ESFR & QR heads
I would like to have them do the entire warehouse 430,000 ft2 but they only have 20,000 ft2 of storage so probably won't happen Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 2:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: ESFR & QR heads What Cecil said for NFPA 13. Their insurance carrier may whack you since last time I checked (BEFORE THE BIG REVISION), FM required said separation from all other sprinkler types and not just those with SR. You can also do the whole building as ESFR so they can move their racks around at their pleasure. ESFR applies to LH and OH too. Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Apr 24, 2015, at 1:51 PM, Sprinkler Academy - C Bilbo wrote: > > It's all good. No barrier required in your case. > > It should be recognized that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA, and has not been processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the the NFPA, nor any of their technical committees. > > Sincerely, > > > Cecil Bilbo ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Standpipe design pressure
Our building code allows the pressure be lower if the building is sprinklered and you do not require a fire pump to get the sprinkler system to work, no minimum pressure is specified. If a fire pump is required then you must meet the minimum of 100 psi as per NFPA #14 Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of mphe...@aerofire.com Sent: Monday, June 08, 2015 7:00 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Standpipe design pressure I have a question for the forum at large, and specifically for the NFPA 14 Committee Members. For the forum community "what is the minimum design pressure required for a new class I automatic wet standpipe in your location?" I know what the un-amended code says, but it includes the catch-all qualification about the AHJ being consulted for specific needs. So what I'm looking for is, in your region/area; 1- Does the local fire code accept the NFPA14 requirement for 100 psi minimum operating pressure at the required flow rate? 2 - Does the local fire code amend the NFPA14 requirement from 100 psi to something higher or lower? 3 - Does the local Fire Code Official regulate the NFPA14 requirements without having amended the current fire code, ie, require a higher or lower pressure than the written code? Also, from the NFPA 14 committee, any comments on discussions leading up to the change from 65psi to 100 psi, and your thoughts on the matter will be appreciated. In addition, related comments from the Fire Fighters among us, on actual experience in the "heat of the battle", are most welcome. And lastly, in respect of the Forum Traffic Control officials, please respond to me directly "off forum" at mphe...@aerofire.com<mailto:mphe...@aerofire.com>. Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 Sent from my iPad ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Aircraft Hanger
We have a client in a Group 2 hanger protected with a closed head wet system, that services helicopters and they drain the tank (100 gallons) but there is still about 1 gallon left in the tank (1%) NFPA 409 definitions for unfueled aircraft: An aircraft whose fuel system has flammable or combustible liquid removed such that no tank, cell, or piping contains more than ½ percent of its volumetric capacity. Does this mean that they would not be allowed to use this space as a service area because of ½ gallon of fuel. I would assume that the ½% was based on larger quantities of fuel but have not been able to get any answers, any comments. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Multi row racking
Does Miscellaneous storage cover multi-row racking when the storage is less than 12'-0". NFPA #13 Table 13.2.1 only says rack storage. If yes then OH2 would protect class 2 commodities on multi row racking to 12'-0" We have a client whose aisles are less than 3'-6" between single row racks, so by definition they are multi row racking, used for pick shelving, the option is to move them farther apart. Comments Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
High Temp ESFR
As they do not manufacture high temperature ESFR sprinkler heads, what is being done around unit heaters if the head is located within the 7'-0" high temp area? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: High Temp ESFR
With a 10' x 10' spacing and the unit heater in the middle a head will always be in the high temp zone, just wondering how others deal with this situation. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Denhardt Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2015 11:10 AM To: Subject: Re: High Temp ESFR Move the heater. Sprinklers Save > On Jul 9, 2015, at 1:41 PM, Mike Hairfield wrote: > > Use the 214 degree ones > >> From: jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca >> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> Subject: High Temp ESFR >> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2015 10:44:17 -0700 >> >> As they do not manufacture high temperature ESFR sprinkler heads, >> what is being done around unit heaters if the head is located within >> the 7'-0" high temp area? >> >> >> >> >> >> Thank you >> >> >> >> >> >> James Crawford >> >> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. >> >> Phone 604-888-0318 >> >> Fax 604-888-4732 >> >> Cel 604-790-0938 >> >> Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca >> >> >> >> ___ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> ler.org > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Plastics
NFPA #13 2013ed defines furniture with foam plastic cushions as Group "A" plastics. Would this be treated as an expanded Group "A" plastics because of the foam cushions? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Plastics
Thanks Roland This is good information on how NFPA is looking at it. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 12:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Plastics You can go through the exercise of the percentage allowed for Class IV but it’s hard to imagine the foam not being greater than 25% of the volume (using the 2013 ed). So that pushed it into a Group A plastic. In the 2016 ed it will be further divided into expanded and non-expanded such that you can only have 5% of exposed expanded as a Class IV. IF the exposed expanded is between %5 and 25% then it is classified as a Group A Unexpanded. Beyond that it is a exposed expanded. Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Jul 28, 2015, at 11:36 AM, James Crawford wrote: > > NFPA #13 2013ed defines furniture with foam plastic cushions as Group "A" > plastics. > > > > Would this be treated as an expanded Group "A" plastics because of the > foam cushions? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Plastics
Roland Has NFPA #13 provided any protection schemes for exposed expanded Group "A" plastics in the new edition? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2015 12:45 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Plastics You can go through the exercise of the percentage allowed for Class IV but it’s hard to imagine the foam not being greater than 25% of the volume (using the 2013 ed). So that pushed it into a Group A plastic. In the 2016 ed it will be further divided into expanded and non-expanded such that you can only have 5% of exposed expanded as a Class IV. IF the exposed expanded is between %5 and 25% then it is classified as a Group A Unexpanded. Beyond that it is a exposed expanded. Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Jul 28, 2015, at 11:36 AM, James Crawford wrote: > > NFPA #13 2013ed defines furniture with foam plastic cushions as Group "A" > plastics. > > > > Would this be treated as an expanded Group "A" plastics because of the > foam cushions? > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Anti-freeze
My understanding is that there are no new systems unless you use a listed anti-freeze and as there are none, so no new systems, you can service existing systems but must use a factory pre-mix solution. My understanding Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2015 4:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Anti-freeze A bit of a discussion with an engineer on a project: Is it permitted to install anti-freeze in a system (NFPA 13, 2013 and IBC 2012 are governing documents) employing standard spray uprights and pendents using a factory pre-mix anti-freeze solution in a car dealership occupancy? My answer is no because TIA says only use listed mixture, and to my knowledge, none is available at this date. Engineer states that the TIA permits it (but it is only allowed in 13D), so we can use pre-mix. What does the forum collective think? -- Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Crowley
We still use the Crowley program and you do have to manually input the fire pump boost into your water supply, we try to get four points when ever possible, we use the static boost plus city and two residuals (100% & 150%) as well as the maximum city supply. Hope this helps Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Parsley Consulting Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2015 11:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Crowley Does anyone on the forum use the Crowley calculation program? A client of mine is having an awful time figuring out how to include a pump into that software, and I've never used it. Anyone have a manual or notes? Respond off forum if so, please. *Ken Wagoner, SET *Parsley Consulting*** *350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206 *Escondido, California 92025 *Phone 760-745-6181* Visit our website <http://www.parsleyconsulting.com/> *** ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: "HANGING"
It also states that the pipe needs to be secured to the structure to prevent movement. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Friday, August 28, 2015 11:30 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: "HANGING" When installing piping through TJI, are you required to provide a hanger on the piping? For years in this area, guys drill the TJI and run CPVC through them without a hanger. A new inspector is now requiring the fitter to go back and add hangers on a large 4 story building. What are your thoughts? I was under the impression that installing in this manner, you are laying the piping on the structure and the structure is essentially your hanger, so no additional hangers are needed. -- Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
In-Rack Sprinkler
We have a row of single row racking and we are protecting with two levels of in-rack sprinklers, the levels of the beams are not standard, there is a difference of 12" between some of the levels. My question is if we are installing heads every transverse flue space (4' to 5' apart) what do you do when there is a step down or step up in the beam levels? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Multi Row Racks & In-racks
We are looking at a project with multi row racks, some 4 deep and some 5 deep, all over 25' high (38' high) Reference is NFPA #13 (2013 ed) figure 16.3.1.3.1.3(A)(b) The drawing indicated that the face sprinklers are at the end of the racking not the loading side and this seems wrong to me. Exhibit 16.23 in the handbook shows the same thing. To me it make more sense to have the face sprinklers on the loading aisle not the end of the racking. Am I looking at this wrong or have the sketches been rotated? On the same matter we would have one level at the 15' elevation and the 30' elevation with face sprinklers at the 30' elevation, for 4 deep this works great for 5 deep a little different, do I end up with a face sprinkler at the 15' level as I need 3 heads across the rack, 2 in the flue space and then I run out of flue space. Looking for info Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Existing sprinklers
We have a building that was built about 30 years ago the sprinkler system was designed to NFPA 231C with a ceiling density of 0.45 gpm over 2000 square feet. There is good water pressure and the sprinkler heads are 5.6K and 286°F We have a new tenant and they require 0.45/2000 and the AHJ says the heads need to be changed to 11.2K because the density is above 0.34, I said that NFPA 25 (2008ed) section 4.1.6 Addressing Changes in Hazard, indicates that the system needs to be evaluated and if the system provides the required protection then no changes are required. Comments please I seem to be hitting a wall. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Existing sprinklers
This is a sprinkler system that was designed to have in-rack sprinklers installed at a future date if required, and for this tenant we were planning on installing two levels of in-racks with a ceiling density of 0.45, this is what is currently in this building. I see no need to change the roof system heads if they work. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cahill, Christopher Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 12:35 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Existing sprinklers If the density didn't changed how did the hazard change? Although at 0.45 with 5.6 do you have a sprinkler system or a mist system, lol. Chris Cahill, PE* Associate Fire Protection Engineer Burns & McDonnell Phone: 952.656.3652 Fax: 952.229.2923 ccah...@burnsmcd.com www.burnsmcd.com *Registered in: MN Proud to be #14 on FORTUNE's 2014 List of 100 Best Companies to Work For -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Friday, October 02, 2015 2:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Existing sprinklers Hitting a wall how? I Thing The AHJ is on point, unless there's something else to the story. Steve Leyton Original message ---- From: James Crawford Date: 10/02/2015 2:01 PM (GMT-06:00) To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Existing sprinklers We have a building that was built about 30 years ago the sprinkler system was designed to NFPA 231C with a ceiling density of 0.45 gpm over 2000 square feet. There is good water pressure and the sprinkler heads are 5.6K and 286°F We have a new tenant and they require 0.45/2000 and the AHJ says the heads need to be changed to 11.2K because the density is above 0.34, I said that NFPA 25 (2008ed) section 4.1.6 Addressing Changes in Hazard, indicates that the system needs to be evaluated and if the system provides the required protection then no changes are required. Comments please I seem to be hitting a wall. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Existing sprinklers
Thanks Roland Existing heads are spaced at 72 sq.ft. so end head pressure is 33.5 psi, but we are also looking at adding one more row of in-racks to reduce the ceiling demand to 0.30/2000 to further reduce the end head pressure. If there are grey areas we normally discuss with the AHJ, but I thought it was spelled out nicely in NFPA #13. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, October 08, 2015 1:24 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Existing sprinklers The 65 psi end head pressure is a bitter pill but NFPA 13 allows them to be retained for modifications to existing systems. That clause is part of the current standard so bringing the system up to current standards does not exclude it’s application. Mediocre fire protection at best but allowed. A discussion with the AHJ at the BEGINNING beats a fight after the fact since interpretation enters the fray. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Oct 2, 2015, at 12:41 PM, James Crawford wrote: > > This is a sprinkler system that was designed to have in-rack sprinklers > installed at a future date if required, and for this tenant we were planning > on installing two levels of in-racks with a ceiling density of 0.45, this is > what is currently in this building. > > I see no need to change the roof system heads if they work. > > > > Thank you > > > James Crawford ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements
See NFPA #13 2013 ed section 16.2.2.3 in the handbook give a good explanation on this and it would be 4x4. The square root of your total square footage time 1.2 divided by the distance between the heads. 47.41 divided by 13.42 = 3.54 or 4 heads Trust this helps Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:10 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements When using the EC-25 as a CMSA sprinkler (current spacing 10-5 X 13-5), the criteria for our application is 8 sprinklers at 40 psi. When calculating, do you calculate 4+4 or do you do 3+3+2? Tyco's data sheet does not give guidance, nor does NFPA 13, Chap 21. I've been told use 1.2 * Sqrt (area). But is that the area based on max coverage of 14x14 (8*196 = 1568) or do you use area per sprinkler (140*8 = 1120). The difference is that at 1568, my length down remote area is 48' which requires 4x2. The 1120 is 40. This is a weird configuration, so my heads are spaced at 13-5 on center. As such, that puts me at 3 sprinklers per line. In this particular project, much of the piping is existing, and the difference is 17 psi between the 4+4 and 3+3+2. That difference requires removing existing 6" piping and replacing with existing 8" piping. Does anyone have any guidance on this? My gut is that it is 4+4. My customer is saying it is 3+3+2. -- Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements
Section 16.2.2.3 send you to 24.4.4.2.1 and in the hand book it says to use the maximum allowable spacing per sprinklers. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:51 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements Yes..that is exactly it. The area of the remote area is the driving factor. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign On 10/13/2015 9:49 AM, Cliff Whitfield wrote: > The question is - what is your 'total sq footage' based on? The sq > footage of the actual sprinkler spacing (1120 sf) or of the spacing > based on 14 x 14 coverage per head (1568)? > > Cliff > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of James Crawford > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:44 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: RE: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements > > See NFPA #13 2013 ed section 16.2.2.3 in the handbook give a good > explanation on this and it would be 4x4. > > The square root of your total square footage time 1.2 divided by the > distance between the heads. > > 47.41 divided by 13.42 = 3.54 or 4 heads > > Trust this helps > > Thank you > > > James Crawford > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > Phone 604-888-0318 > Fax 604-888-4732 > Cel 604-790-0938 > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:10 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements > > When using the EC-25 as a CMSA sprinkler (current spacing 10-5 X > 13-5), the criteria for our application is 8 sprinklers at 40 psi. > When calculating, do you calculate 4+4 or do you do 3+3+2? Tyco's > data sheet does not give guidance, nor does NFPA 13, Chap 21. > > I've been told use 1.2 * Sqrt (area). But is that the area based on > max coverage of 14x14 (8*196 = 1568) or do you use area per sprinkler > (140*8 = 1120). > > The difference is that at 1568, my length down remote area is 48' > which requires 4x2. The 1120 is 40. This is a weird configuration, > so my heads are spaced at 13-5 on center. As such, that puts me at 3 > sprinklers per line. > > In this particular project, much of the piping is existing, and the > difference is 17 psi between the 4+4 and 3+3+2. That difference > requires removing existing 6" piping and replacing with existing 8" piping. > > Does anyone have any guidance on this? My gut is that it is 4+4. My > customer is saying it is 3+3+2. > > -- > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > email:tm...@mfpdesign.com > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements
2013 edition handbook Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:19 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements What edition of 13 are you using? From 2013 edition, nothing is 16.2.2.3 gets you to maximum areas that I can see: *16.2.2.3 *Protection shall be provided as specified in Table 16.2.2.1 or appropriate NFPA standards in terms of minimum operating pressure and the number of sprinklers to be included in the design area. And Chapter 24 only goes to 24.2 I agree with the information you are stating to use maximum area. I just need to be able to provide it to the customer. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign On 10/13/2015 10:08 AM, James Crawford wrote: > Section 16.2.2.3 send you to 24.4.4.2.1 and in the hand book it says > to use the maximum allowable spacing per sprinklers. > > > > > > Thank you > > > James Crawford > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > Phone 604-888-0318 > Fax 604-888-4732 > Cel 604-790-0938 > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > > -Original Message- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] > On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:51 AM > To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > Subject: Re: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements > > Yes..that is exactly it. The area of the remote area is the driving factor. > > Travis Mack, SET > MFP Design, LLC > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > 480-505-9271 > fax: 866-430-6107 > email:tm...@mfpdesign.com > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > On 10/13/2015 9:49 AM, Cliff Whitfield wrote: >> The question is - what is your 'total sq footage' based on? The sq >> footage of the actual sprinkler spacing (1120 sf) or of the spacing >> based on 14 x 14 coverage per head (1568)? >> >> Cliff >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Sprinklerforum >> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] >> On Behalf Of James Crawford >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 10:44 AM >> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> Subject: RE: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements >> >> See NFPA #13 2013 ed section 16.2.2.3 in the handbook give a good >> explanation on this and it would be 4x4. >> >> The square root of your total square footage time 1.2 divided by the >> distance between the heads. >> >> 47.41 divided by 13.42 = 3.54 or 4 heads >> >> Trust this helps >> >> Thank you >> >> >> James Crawford >> Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. >> Phone 604-888-0318 >> Fax 604-888-4732 >> Cel 604-790-0938 >> Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca >> >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Sprinklerforum >> [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] >> On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET >> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:10 AM >> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org >> Subject: Tyco EC-25 CMSA requirements >> >> When using the EC-25 as a CMSA sprinkler (current spacing 10-5 X >> 13-5), the criteria for our application is 8 sprinklers at 40 psi. >> When calculating, do you calculate 4+4 or do you do 3+3+2? Tyco's >> data sheet does not give guidance, nor does NFPA 13, Chap 21. >> >> I've been told use 1.2 * Sqrt (area). But is that the area based on >> max coverage of 14x14 (8*196 = 1568) or do you use area per sprinkler >> (140*8 = 1120). >> >> The difference is that at 1568, my length down remote area is 48' >> which requires 4x2. The 1120 is 40. This is a weird configuration, >> so my heads are spaced at 13-5 on center. As such, that puts me at 3 >> sprinklers per line. >> >> In this particular project, much of the piping is existing, and the >> difference is 17 psi between the 4+4 and 3+3+2. That difference >> requires removing existing 6" piping and replacing with existing 8" > piping. >> Does anyone have any guidance on this? M
Composite Wood Joists
We have a project that is using TJI wood joist (composite wood Joists), they are 16 deep spaces 18 on center and are 20 long. There is gypsum board attached directly to the bottom of the joists along with 3 of insulation at the bottom to reduce sound transmission. The area is about 1400 sq.ft. Reference is NFPA #13 2013 edition section 11.2.3.1.4(4)(j) Light or ordinary hazard occupancies where noncombustible or limited combustible ceilings are attached to the bottom of composite wood joists either directly or on to metal channels not exceeding 1 in depth, provided the adjacent joist space channels are firestopped into volumes not exceeding 160 cubic feet using materials equivalent to ½ gypsum board and at least 3 ½ of batt insulation is installed at the bottom of the joist channels when the ceiling is attached utilizing metal channels. If each channel space formed by two joist is 40 cubic feet, so the adjacent space is 40 cubic feet, I see no need to fire stop them into volumes less than 160 cubic feet as they are already less than 160. The AHJ is saying that we must firestop every 4th joist space with gypsum to create spaces of 160 cubic feet, so we would need to break the space into 12 spaces of 160 cubic feet for the 1400 sq ft area. Am I reading this correctly or do we need to break the space into sections of 160 cubic feet? Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Composite Wood Joists
Thanks Roland But my coffee has not kicked in, So I agree with 8.15.1.2.6 allows the omission of the sprinkler heads as we meet those requirements, and 11.2.3.1.4(4)(j) allows us to not use a 3000 sf design area if we firestop the joist channels into 160 cu ft blocks, or in our case about every fourth joist channel and the firestop material needs to be 1/2" gypsum or equal Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2015 9:23 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Composite Wood Joists Allow me a bit of a long winded response instead of a simple yes or no. First off, although your question is not about whether you can omit sprinklers but whether you have to have a 3,000 sf remote area (not stated but understood since you are referencing chap 11), let’s start in 8.15.1.2.6 that allow the omission. It states - the joist channels are firestopped into volumes EACH not exceeding 160 cu ft. Obviously the volume is per individual channel. Now jumping to 11.2.3.1.4(4)(j) it states - provide the adjacent joist space channels are firestopped into volumes not exceeding 160 cubic feet. I could stop here but the coffee is kicking in. IF it were meant to be a single channel, the text would have been copied as stated in 8.15.1.2.6. Stating “adjacent channels” when read without the preconception from 8.15 is pretty plain but it was known that the per channel was well ingrained so Annex material was provided. It states - restrict the ability for fire to spread beyond 160 cu ft zones covering MULTIPLE joist channels. Prior to the 2010 edition, you ALWAYS had to use a 3,000 sf remote area with unprotected spaces of composite wood joists. By breaking the overall space into volumes of NMT 160 cu ft, it presents a similar risk that that of solid wood joists with bigger individual channels. For our sprinkler scientist, yes it is a slightly bigger risk since TJI's burn more vigorously and fail more quickly than solid wood joist (thus the prior difference) but for driving the need for a bigger remote area, the difference is insignificant. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Oct 21, 2015, at 5:08 PM, James Crawford wrote: > > We have a project that is using TJI wood joist (composite wood > Joists), they are 16” deep spaces 18” on center and are 20’ long. > There is gypsum board attached directly to the bottom of the joists > along with 3” of insulation at the bottom to reduce sound transmission. The > area is about 1400 sq.ft. > > > > Reference is NFPA #13 2013 edition section 11.2.3.1.4(4)(j) > > > > Light or ordinary hazard occupancies where noncombustible or limited > combustible ceilings are attached to the bottom of composite wood > joists either directly or on to metal channels not exceeding 1” in > depth, provided the adjacent joist space channels are firestopped into > volumes not exceeding > 160 cubic feet using materials equivalent to ˝” gypsum board and at > least 3 ˝” of batt insulation is installed at the bottom of the joist > channels when the ceiling is attached utilizing metal channels. > > > > If each channel space formed by two joist is 40 cubic feet, so the > adjacent space is 40 cubic feet, I see no need to fire stop them into > volumes less than 160 cubic feet as they are already less than 160. > The AHJ is saying that we must firestop every 4th joist space with > gypsum to create spaces of > 160 cubic feet, so we would need to break the space into 12 spaces of > 160 cubic feet for the 1400 sq ft area. > > > > Am I reading this correctly or do we need to break the space into > sections of 160 cubic feet? > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Electrical Equipment room
Opinions please NFPA #13 2013 ed section 8.15.11 Electrical Equipment. Room is used as a server room, only the server and the UPS are in the room, the room is 2 hour fire rated. Section 8.15.11.3 Sprinklers shall not be required in electrical equipment room where all of the following conditions are met: (1)Room is dedicated to electrical equipment onlyyes (2)Only dry-type electrical equipment is used.Yes (3)Electrical equipment is installed in a 2 hour rated enclosure including protection of penetrations yes (4)No combustibles storage is permitted to be stored in the room. yes Based on this can the sprinkler heads be eliminated from this room? Would still have to get it by the AHJ. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Electrical Equipment room
I agree and I always provide protection in a server room, note a SERVER ROOM not electrical equipment room, this was suggested by an architect to help his client. Just wanted to get some feed back on this matter before I give him the bad news. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 12:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Electrical Equipment room BULLSEYE Sounds like someone is doing the A/E dance. Not the first time one has attempted to say this means equipment that uses electricity. If the value of the data or continuity of business warrants it, suggest they do a double interlock preaction system. Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:47 AM, wrote: > > A server and a UPS is not an electrical room nor considered "electrical equipment". > > "Electrical Rooms" house Transformers, MCCs and Switchgear. The clue is the mention of dry type equipment. You haven't seen any oil cooled computers have you? > > So technically this doesn't apply but it depends on what you convince the AHJ it means. > > > If they are adamant about not putting sprinklers in the room, the better argument is found in the Fire Code in 903.3.1.1.1 EXEMPT LOCATIONS where you could use exemption (2)"Any room or space where sprinklers are considered undesirable because of the nature of the contents, when approved by the fire code official." Now the room will require the installation of smoke detectors if you omit the sprinklers. Run that by the AHJ and see if it flies. > > > > Craig L. Prahl ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Storage Tanks
Looking for input as I have not come across this before. Looking for a protection scheme to protect a 65' tall storage tank filled with water and coffee beans (decaffeinating) Just not sure what code would cover this. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Storage Tanks
My wife would agree that this is wrong but that’s the way life is. I am just thinking that due to the height of the building and the commodity being stored, that it is not a normal protection scheme. I don't feel that the metal tanks full of water is much of a fire hazard, so having one that is 65' tall does not change a lot but what I think and what I can prove are often two separate items. So I was just looking for back up when I address the local AHJ. Is there something in the code that would provide some additional information on sprinkler protection for this situation. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 3:52 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Storage Tanks First off I have to say it’s just wrong to decaffeinate coffee What exactly do you mean protect? A tank full of water (even with beans) poses what kind of risk? Confused Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Nov 20, 2015, at 3:44 PM, James Crawford wrote: > > Looking for input as I have not come across this before. > > > > Looking for a protection scheme to protect a 65' tall storage tank > filled with water and coffee beans (decaffeinating) > > > > Just not sure what code would cover this. > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Canopies Over gads Pumps
Looking for some direction on the protection of a Gas Service station canopy over the gas pumps. We have an AHJ that want the canopy protected, but I can't find anything that outlines the protection requirements for this area. My first thought is Extra Hazard group 1. Can someone point me in the right direction Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Canopies Over gads Pumps
Richard Yes it is in Canada and as always the AHJ will not say what they want only that they want it protected. I have never seen one protected here in the lower mainland of BC, just fire extinguishers. I have assumed a water based system, but have been unable to find any direction in the codes, so thought I would through it out there and see who takes a swing. Always interesting discussions. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lindner Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:44 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists firesprinkler. org Subject: Re: Canopies Over gads Pumps James, I am going to assume you're talking about something in Canada? You also don't state what type of system the AHJ is looking for, as others are assuming water-based. Based on what I have seen on inspections of gas stations (due diligence reports), I have seen several with a system that would be typical of the one found here: http://www.pyrochem.com/html/prodatten.html Worth a phone call at least to the company to get a better explanation. Richard On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 1:04 PM, James Crawford wrote: > Looking for some direction on the protection of a Gas Service station > canopy over the gas pumps. > > > > We have an AHJ that want the canopy protected, but I can't find > anything that outlines the protection requirements for this area. My > first thought is Extra Hazard group 1. > > > > Can someone point me in the right direction > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Locker Rooms
We have always protected locker rooms as light hazard, we have been advised by a local AHJ that they see these rooms as storage areas and will need to be protected as ordinary hazard group 1. Any thoughts Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Mixing ESFR Heads
Looking at a 400,000 sq.ft. building with multiple storage arrangements, on the floor, on single and double row racks. Each about half the building. Can you use K25 ESFR heads for the rack storage (exposed expanded Group A plastics) and K17 heads for the storage on the floor (class 4 commodities)? Thoughts as I cannot find anything that says you can't. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Mixing ESFR Heads
Ceiling elevation is the same across the entire building Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 3:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Mixing ESFR Heads We do it when we have high bays that require the larger k-factor and then lower roof areas that the smaller works. Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign On 1/5/2016 4:11 PM, James Crawford wrote: > Looking at a 400,000 sq.ft. building with multiple storage > arrangements, on the floor, on single and double row racks. Each about half the building. > > > > Can you use K25 ESFR heads for the rack storage (exposed expanded > Group A > plastics) and K17 heads for the storage on the floor (class 4 commodities)? > > > > Thoughts as I cannot find anything that says you can't. > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: Mixing ESFR Heads
Thanks all I always discuss any restrictions that may be required with the owner and if the flexibility is required or future growth would be anticipated, then the entire building will be designed to the higher hazard. Just looking at options. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 1:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Mixing ESFR Heads AS Mark and Duane have already flagged, it is addressed by 13. Although 13 says 15 ft, check the cut sheet regarding the possible 20 ft. I seem to remember there is something on ESFR (a very hazy recollection). The point I want to make is to ensure you have something in writing showing the owner is aware that they can not later change the contents of the lower hazard area by expanding their higher hazard stuff (done without a second thought). The flexibility may be worth the cost difference to the owner. The CYA for you down the road - priceless. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. --- Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org <http://www.firesprinkler.org/> > On Jan 5, 2016, at 3:11 PM, James Crawford wrote: > > Looking at a 400,000 sq.ft. building with multiple storage > arrangements, on the floor, on single and double row racks. Each about half the building. > > > > Can you use K25 ESFR heads for the rack storage (exposed expanded > Group A > plastics) and K17 heads for the storage on the floor (class 4 commodities)? > > > > Thoughts as I cannot find anything that says you can't. > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
max Load of Influence Chart
Trying to locate a chart for Maximum load of influence for Sch. 7 pipe. Can someone point me in the right direction Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
RE: max Load of Influence Chart
Thanks, I had found this one but noticed that some of the numbers are lower that the sch 5 chart in NFPA 13, would have thought they would be somewhere in the middle due to the thicker wall on sch 7 pipe. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca -Original Message- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:46 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: max Load of Influence Chart There is one in this packet from AFSA seminar https://www.firesprinkler.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/0929_0930_Seismic.p df Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 2508 E Lodgepole Drive Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:tm...@mfpdesign.com http://www.mfpdesign.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign On 1/14/2016 1:43 PM, James Crawford wrote: > Trying to locate a chart for Maximum load of influence for Sch. 7 pipe. > > > > Can someone point me in the right direction > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > James Crawford > > Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. > > Phone 604-888-0318 > > Fax 604-888-4732 > > Cel 604-790-0938 > > Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca > > > > ___ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
Wooden Pallet Storage
We have a client that will be storing wooden pallets inside the warehouse, building is protected with ESFR sprinkler heads which would allow 25'-0" storage of wooden pallets on the floor. What I cannot seem to find is the pile size requirement, reference is NFPA #13 2013 ed. Can someone point me in the right direction or is there no restriction on the pile size. Thank you James Crawford Phaser Fire Protection Ltd. Phone 604-888-0318 Fax 604-888-4732 Cel 604-790-0938 Email jcrawf...@phaserfire.ca ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
