[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
Ο/Η Michael Bayer έγραψε: django was not available to the public until it was fully functional (youd go to the site and just get a coming soon-style splash page)..and even then it was already in production use in earlier forms. they knew that if you release something that wasnt polished and would lead to user frustration, people would get disinterested and leave. the strategy seems to have worked for them. I understand your elaborations. You should possibly close sqlalchemy, too - until it's fully functional and does not frustrate users. Same for turbogears and other open source projects (like django, which is still not fully functional, mainly due to it's deficient ORM layer). Or you can keep the development _open_, thus users and other developers can review the _source_ and contribute ideas, requirements, code etc.. its not your grandfather's open source community ! Please leave relatives out of the discussions. . -- http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Persist --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
after that post, ill never again doubt your trollish reputation. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
closing off posting for this thread. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
Ο/Η flyingfrog έγραψε: Ok, this is my first approach with python + ORM, and i must say i can't do what i want with it... Before that i used java Hibernate, think you should know about. Python fails in this discipline mainly due to: * the lack of collaboration between projects (mainly 'single-developer' centric) * user feed back is not tacke nin account as it should http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Persist#Requirements I've tried both SQLObject and SQLAlchemy but both have been a delusion :(, i'd like to share with you my considerations, hoping in some suggestions! SQLObject forces you to embed database code into your model classes, and i don't really want that. And it's really buggy! Too much for production usage. SQLAlchemy lets you define separately DB code and python classes, but then you hve a real duplication. And to use database functionalities you always need to access session objects or connections, making sql-like queries. And i don't want that. Thy're both good projects but none of them has catched the real objective: no more sql within the application logic. Hibernate does it, take a look! Anyway, maybe i didn't look so much into python world and there could be other tools, or other ways of using these tools for doing what i want to, please let me know if you know of any!! Bye --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
Ο/Η metaperl έγραψε: TurboEntity was quite sweet. Supposedly a complete rewrite as a new product is on its way though. the first major problem of this rewrite: it happens 'silently' (non-public) . -- http://case.lazaridis.com/wiki/Persist --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
django was not available to the public until it was fully functional (youd go to the site and just get a coming soon-style splash page)..and even then it was already in production use in earlier forms. they knew that if you release something that wasnt polished and would lead to user frustration, people would get disinterested and leave. the strategy seems to have worked for them. its not your grandfather's open source community ! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
SQLAlchemy lets you define separately DB code and python classes, but then you hve a real duplication. Duplication is bad, but you're never forced to duplicate anything.Pythonoffers all the tools you need to prevent duplication, and SA offers whatever you need to 'extract' metadata from tables in order to employ it. Take a look at what ActiveMapper does. I'll give you the example implementation of my system: I have defined my own database through sqlalchemy. Then I write the 'base' DB class for my system (which may vary depending on the software I'm working on) and I use a custom metaclass I've created to sort out all the object-related issues. In the end, I get a full-working set of mapped classes without ever duplicating a single line of code, unless I want to override a default behaviour. Of course, since SQLAlchemy can't know what are you doing if you use 'strange' naming (well, I guess this could be sorted out anyway by harvesting globals(), but it's a slow approach), you'll have to trade naming convention for 'singleness' - e.g., if have a table called 'place', its corresponding object will be named 'Place'. And if, in another class, I have a FK column called 'place_id' it will point (for sure!) at the place.idcolumn, and that class will have a 'place' property. Try it out, you'll find amazing how easy it's to write such code. -- Alan Franzoni [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Togli .xyz dalla mia email per contattarmi. Remove .xyz from my address in order to contact me. - GPG Key Fingerprint (Key ID = FE068F3E): 5C77 9DC3 BD5B 3A28 E7BC 921A 0255 42AA FE06 8F3E --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
On 12/16/06, Michael Bayer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: django was not available to the public until it was fully functional (youd go to the site and just get a coming soon-style splash page)..and even then it was already in production use in earlier forms. they knew that if you release something that wasnt polished and would lead to user frustration, people would get disinterested and leave. the strategy seems to have worked for them. its not your grandfather's open source community ! If you're responding to Ilias Lazaridis's comment, you should be aware that he appears to be a troll. His post set off all my trolling post, ignore sensors, plus I've seen him before. (Here, several months ago, if I recall correctly). Incidentally, there used to be a Wikipedia article on him, which was recently deleted. But you can still see it via Google's cache, at: http://72.14.221.104/search?q=cache:HnC3ass1Y9YJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilias_Lazaridis+ilias+lazaridishl=enct=clnkcd=1 I wasn't going to say anything unless someone responded to him, but in the interests of pro-actively heading off a possible flamewar: Please Don't Feed The Trolls. :-) -- Robin Munn [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG key 0x4543D577 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
yeah i know about the trollish reputation. the post that started this thread was more or less a troll as well IMHO but everyone seems to be responding to it anyway. but django's initial release strategy is on my mind regardless...i have something else im hopefully releasing soon but im purposely keeping it under wraps until its as done as I can get it. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
hibernate didn't magically appear, it was refined with input from users over many years. if you want to help make sqlalchemy better for yours and other usage. its much better to give concrete examples, that can be used to improve it, then making grandiose negative statements. the idea behind sa's orm is indeed to obviate the need for most common application sql, if it fails for some reason on a given example, it would be helpful to actually here what the usage scenario/example is, perhaps you can post a comparison of a simple model between hibernate and sa. for example.. usage complaints as relates to session, are typically things that can be handled by app server, via app agnostic appserver integration. sa exposes various session/txn layers for application flexibility and for easier integration into frameworks or different programming styles, in much the same way that hibernate does, and arguably sa is more flexible here for different usage modes (although hibernate's scaling/deployment options, ie. caches are much nicer). cheers, kapil On Dec 9, 11:35 am, flyingfrog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, this is my first approach with python + ORM, and i must say i can't do what i want with it... Before that i used java Hibernate, think you should know about. I've tried both SQLObject and SQLAlchemy but both have been a delusion :(, i'd like to share with you my considerations, hoping in some suggestions! SQLObject forces you to embed database code into your model classes, and i don't really want that. And it's really buggy! Too much for production usage. SQLAlchemy lets you define separately DB code and python classes, but then you hve a real duplication. And to use database functionalities you always need to access session objects or connections, making sql-like queries. And i don't want that. Thy're both good projects but none of them has catched the real objective: no more sql within the application logic. Hibernate does it, take a look! Anyway, maybe i didn't look so much into python world and there could be other tools, or other ways of using these tools for doing what i want to, please let me know if you know of any!! Bye --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
On 12/9/06, flyingfrog [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SQLAlchemy lets you define separately DB code and python classes, but then you hve a real duplication. And to use database functionalities you always need to access session objects or connections, making sql-like queries. And i don't want that. Unless Hibernate has changed almost entirely in the past two years (when I was last using it), you used session objects to control which of your objects were currently being managed by the ORM and you used OQL to query the database. I'd certainly be interested to see some examples of how it works now to see how it has changed... --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
On 12/11/06, Michael Bayer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hibernate is pretty SQL oriented as well, and as I use it every day for my job I can say it has little to nothing over SA...harder to configure, more complex and less consistent behavior with regards to relationships, poorer database support (like forget about quoting and stuff), its create schema support sucks, no reflection, only one eager loading relation at a time, no union-based polymorphic loading, self-referential relationships are barely supported, and of course its very hard to integrate plain SQL/result set logic with it since its only an ORM. the only compelling features it has over SA are extra lazy loading and a second-level cache, which while ive used neither, could be implemented for SA someday. Sounds like you should port SA to Java so you can use it in your day job :) Kevin --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sqlalchemy] Re: python ORM
Or get a day job at a company that uses nothing but sqlalchemy, like mine :). Python coder resumes always accepted, especially from Mike. -shoe On 12/11/06, Kevin Dangoor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/11/06, Michael Bayer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hibernate is pretty SQL oriented as well, and as I use it every day for my job I can say it has little to nothing over SA...harder to configure, more complex and less consistent behavior with regards to relationships, poorer database support (like forget about quoting and stuff), its create schema support sucks, no reflection, only one eager loading relation at a time, no union-based polymorphic loading, self-referential relationships are barely supported, and of course its very hard to integrate plain SQL/result set logic with it since its only an ORM. the only compelling features it has over SA are extra lazy loading and a second-level cache, which while ive used neither, could be implemented for SA someday. Sounds like you should port SA to Java so you can use it in your day job :) Kevin -- --- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. --- --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups sqlalchemy group. To post to this group, send email to sqlalchemy@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sqlalchemy?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
