Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
maybe this could help you: https://www.xmos.com/download/private/AN00103%3A-Enabling-DSD256-in-the-USB-Audio-2.0-Device-Reference-Design-Software%281.0.2rc1%29.pdf SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
What I mean is "tell the DAC that the stream it receives is DSD, not PCM". And of course it's a bitstream, however it's packed, PCM I'd also a bitstream, just using a different encoding --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > . > I didn't know DoP was a dedicated USB transfer mode to be selected, I > was somehow under the impression that DoP uses normal PCM formats (and > announced the stream as such) and that a DoP-capable DAC will identify > it as DoP based on the upper 8 bit in the samples, the ones being used > not for audio data but as DSD markers. > > That's also what this specification says: > http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.WLMnJhI18UE > > It states that the output is sent as PCM raw and that the lower bits are > being used as markers. > It also specifically states that this was done this way because Apple > doesn't allow selection of a DSD mode on the USB bus. > > > Yes, sure. It was just that the DoP specification above specifically > claimed it's different and that the markers and only the markers are > being used to identify the stream as DSD. > I think both is true, all formats are DSD over PCM, but DOP is a special one and uses marker (first byte) on every frame. 'Sniffing' for DOP marker, you could detect is DSD and not PCM at any point in the stream, so it's correct they want you to use this method, also becouse you must trow away the marker from data. What you mean with "selection of a DSD mode on the USB bus"? No USB BUS can transfer DSD (bitstream), in any system. It should be packed someway, that's what 'native' formats does and for what i know, should work also in mac OsX with ASIO drivers, just becouse - as is per DOP - from the USB BUS point of view is always PCM. But this last point is not so clear to me and is "under investigation". SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote: > You (the user) could choose between supporte formars. At the moment DSF > or DFF, but SOX is adding formats, then you could choose also the new > ones, provvided are supportet by the client and communicated via > slimproto. > Ah, so you configure this in the plugin, server-side, correct? > > 1. LMS (-> C-3PO) -> DSF || DFF -> Player > > Player always know via slimproto what format is going to receive, and > here ends what LMS and C-3PO is concerned on. > > 2. Player -> (DOP || U32L || U32B || U24L || U24B || U16L || U16B) -> > Device driver. > > Here you have to look to output_alsa.c, dsd.c and pcm.c to see how the > device is opened, how is dsd data packed into pcm frames depending on > the selected output format. > OK, I'll check these files again. > > 1. call it as you want, but if the device (driver) do not announce > itself as DOP (or dsd native) capable, there is no way to send it DOP or > DSD 'native' formats, is not going to work. > Ah, ok, that's probably why Onkyo doesn't really work as well. I didn't know DoP was a dedicated USB transfer mode to be selected, I was somehow under the impression that DoP uses normal PCM formats (and announced the stream as such) and that a DoP-capable DAC will identify it as DoP based on the upper 8 bit in the samples, the ones being used not for audio data but as DSD markers. That's also what this specification says: http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard#.WLMnJhI18UE It states that the output is sent as PCM raw and that the lower bits are being used as markers. It also specifically states that this was done this way because Apple doesn't allow selection of a DSD mode on the USB bus. > > 2. It's not a matter of iOs touching the data, if the receiver do not > investigates the marker, it will handle the stream as PCM. Notes that we > have 2 versions of markers, maybe you should switch to the other one. > Yes, sure. It was just that the DoP specification above specifically claimed it's different and that the markers and only the markers are being used to identify the stream as DSD. > > Here is what I can't understand.. what would you like me to write? > I don't want you to write anything. I want to understand how all the existing things work so that I can write an iOS player that supports it. > > Again, have look to output_alsa.c, pcm.c and dsd.c for implementation > example, XMOS documentation repository / development platform, steiberg > ASIO documentation for more 'theoretical' explanation. > Yea, I'll probably have a closer look at that code again. > > Maybe XMOS development platform or documentation could help. Might also be a good idea --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > But how do you know which? I mean... if you resample to DSD you have to > know the output format, don't you? Is that normally DSF then? You (the user) could choose. pippin wrote: > > But that's all PCM. > It assumes the DSD bitstream is already packaged as PCM and then selects > the applicable PCM format to open ALSA and send. It doesn't know > anything about DSD. > Yes, it is. DSD over PCM, native is a very inappropriate name, DOP is just a (special) case. pippin wrote: > > If I know all this I can probably do the same, but what I'd like to do > is to understand the stream and then either send it directly to USB or > resample to PCM if I have to use the built-in DAC (e.g. if headphones > are connected). So I need to understand I'm getting DSD and what format > it is in and all of that. Probably it's me, but seem s to me you are confusing the moments: 1. LMS (-> C-3PO) -> DSF || DFF -> Player You always know via slimproto what format you are receiving and here ends what LMS and C-3PO is concerned on. 2. Player -> (DOP || U32L || U32B || U24L || U24B || U16L || U16B) -> Device driver. Here you have to look to output_alsa.c, dsd.c and pcm.c to see how the device is opened, how is dsd data packed into pcm frames depending on the selected output format. pippin wrote: > > Here are my topics: > > > > - For the life of me I can't get my DSD DAC to recognize DSD input > when connected to any iThingy. Not with my App, not with Onkyo one > (which claims to be able to do this but is still an iOS 6 app). Not > with DoP, not with native. All of that works fine with the DAC > connected to a Raspberry Pi. - I'm especially concerned that not even DoP works. I mean... This > is being generated server-side and I don't touch it yet the DAC > interprets it as high-sample-rate PCM. No idea whether iOS touches > the data but I wouldn't know how and why. - What I want to do is be able to announce DSD as a player > capability and just send it to a USB device. - But if no USB device is connected (this can switch on the fly in > iOS, if you e.g. pull out the cable), I need to switch to PCM. I > could ever re-announce the player to the server without the DSD > capability but that would probably reset all the playback. If I > understand the whole thing I could just as well re-sample to PCM. > > > > > > I didn't find any code for this. Do you have a pointer? To me it looks > like it just sends the data it gets from the server to ALSA. > 1. call it as you want, but if the device (driver) do not announce itself as DOP (or dsd native) capable, there is no way to senf it DOP or DSD 'native' formats, is not going to work. 2. It's not a matter of iOs tuching the data, if the receiver do not investigates the marker, it will handle the stream as PCM. Notes that we have 2 versions of markers, maybe you should switch to the other one. 3. First part is simple, using slimproto. Second is not, you should know if the DAC (or his interface driver) is capable to detect DOP OR 'native' dsd and in witch format, then you have to pack data according to the selected format. 4. This is completely up to the player, I could foresee some problems and I thing at least you have to restart the track playback, if using slimproto. Real time switching to pcm during playback is hard, with DOP you maybe could, with other 'native' formats you sure have to close and reopen the device while keeping 'alive' the server connection. pippin wrote: > > So if it's not ready-made then you have to have implemented it yourself > :) So you should know what format you implemented, shouldn't you? Here is what I can't undrstand.. what are you thinking I don't know? If you ask 'why' they decide to use those formats, I don't know (but I suppose is becouse it's easier) if you ask how they are implemented, the answer is look at output_alsa.c, dsd.c and pcm.c in squeezelite-R2 repo or in Daphile patches. pippin wrote: > > Or did Kimmo do all this? Sure, as I already wrote ALL the DSD for ALSA stuff in Squeezelite-R2 comes from Daphile, SOX is from Måns Rullgard (https://github.com/mansr/sox), the little in C-3PO is mine. Some of Måns mods to sox was suggested by Kimmo, few where suggeste by me. Both Måns and Kimmo gave me precious help to understand things and let it work. but daphile's squeezelite version is different form mine and Ralphy's one, then it was not a matter to use something 'ready made' but to adapt what has been done by Kimmo to a different version. Same I suggest you to do. pippin wrote: > > I'll ask him, too, I have already implemented a ton of Daphile support, > this feature is actually supposed to go along with that. Great idea, Kimmo sure know more than me about, my intent is to provvide to all lms / squeezelite users in any platforms same great quality level provvided by Daphile, it happened that something I've found was usefull also for Daphile and Kimmo adopted it, bu
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote:
> LMS via C-3PO plugin is sending DSF or DFF to the player.
>
But how do you know which? I mean... if you resample to DSD you have to
know the output format, don't you? Is that normally DSF then?
>
> They are not LMS native" they are so called "native", probably starting
> by steinberg people talking abiut ASIO formats.
>
Sorry, typo. Meant to say "native DSD".
>
> No, sorry, The only documentation I was able to find is the one i
> pointed to you AND the code by daphile patches that you could find in my
> repo in gitHub.
> I'm lookig for some better spec for ASIO formats to be used with PA.
>
> > > >
> > maybe you could try a search over the XMOS documentation:
> > https://www.xmos.com/search/content?term=DSD.
> > > >
> I _think_ I have been through all of these but will look again.
>
> > > >
> > header: I was talking about header, but is non a 'real' header, is the
> > way the device is opened by ALSA, see output_alsa.c
> > > >
> But that's all PCM.
> It assumes the DSD bitstream is already packaged as PCM and then
> selects the applicable PCM format to open ALSA and send. It doesn't
> know anything about DSD.
>
> If I know all this I can probably do the same, but what I'd like to do
> is to understand the stream and then either send it directly to USB or
> resample to PCM if I have to use the built-in DAC (e.g. if headphones
> are connected). So I need to understand I'm getting DSD and what
> format it is in and all of that.
>
> Here are my topics:
> > > >
- For the life of me I can't get my DSD DAC to recognize DSD input
> when connected to any iThingy. Not with my App, not with Onkyo one
> (which claims to be able to do this but is still an iOS 6 app). Not
> with DoP, not with native. All of that works fine with the DAC
> connected to a Raspberry Pi.
- I'm especially concerned that not even DoP works. I mean... This
> is being generated server-side and I don't touch it yet the DAC
> interprets it as high-sample-rate PCM. No idea whether iOS touches
> the data but I wouldn't know how and why.
- What I want to do is be able to announce DSD as a player
> capability and just send it to a USB device.
- But if no USB device is connected (this can switch on the fly in
> iOS, if you e.g. pull out the cable), I need to switch to PCM. I
> could ever re-announce the player to the server without the DSD
> capability but that would probably reset all the playback. If I
> understand the whole thing I could just as well re-sample to PCM.
> > >
>
> > > >
> > See how Squeezelite pack the data into pcm formats.
> > > >
> I didn't find any code for this. Do you have a pointer? To me it looks
> like it just sends the data it gets from the server to ALSA.
>
> > > >
> > No, there is nothing 'ready made', we have sample implementation that
> > works and we could adapt them to work in our application too. I was
> > lucky that Daphile produced the patch to be applied to squeezelite in
> > ALSA, then I've to find out the way with ASIO.
> > > >
> So if it's not ready-made then you have to have implemented it
> yourself :) So you should know what format you implemented, shouldn't
> you?
> Or did Kimmo do all this? I'll ask him, too, I have already
> implemented a ton of Daphile support, this feature is actually
> supposed to go along with that.
>
> > > >
> > Is not like that, it wrap and pack DSD data into pcm frames, using
> > different formats (one of them is DOP) , depending on capabilities of
> > the audio device.
> > > >
> Hm, so SqueezeLite gets the capabilities from the audio device?
> Maybe I have to look closer at SqueezeLite but I didn't find any code
> that re-packages DSD into PCM, I only found (3rd party) code that
> re-samples DSD into PCM.
>
> > > >
> > It's just an open source work that Triode included in squeezelite AND
> > dsdPlay plugin long time ago. No needs to reinvent the wheel here, but I
> > preffer NOT to send DSD to squeezelite and let it convert back to PCM.
> > Since it knows what codecs the dac is capable and with slimpropo it
> > retunrs this info to LMS, C-3PO disable dsd output for that player, so
> > conversion - if needed -is applied server side.
> > > >
> Yes, I know, that's what I'd use, too, if I have to, it's an MIT
> license so that works ("open source" might also mean GPL which would
> prevent it from being usable on iOS, GPL forbids that).
>
> > > >
> > It' easy, source code is there and completely open, too bad is not like
> > that with ASIO or others.
> > > >
> Where? That's what I'm asking for all the time, for the life of me I
> can't find it.
> There doesn't seem to be any specification of what format these
> "native" DSD streams are actually sent in to the DAC. Sorry, might
> just be just me being dumb but I don't find it.
> And I've asked on this forum half a dozen times in different places
> and didn't get a pointer as well.
>
> > > >
> > Can't help here, but have a look to the XMOS site,
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > What does your plugin transcode to? > I mean... shouldn't you know? > DSF and DFF are documented formats, if you stream those I can read them > but I can't seem to find anything about what these "native" streaming > actually is, format wise. LMS via C-3PO plugin is sending DSF or DFF to the player. pippin wrote: > > > I do understand DoP (it's well documented) but not the XMOS stuff and > not what the "native" LMS formats are. They are not LMS native" they are so called "native", probably starting by steinberg people talking abiut ASIO formats. pippin wrote: > > Do you have a specification for that container and header? > Well, first of all you should know the format I couldn't find > anything- > Can you be more specific as to where I can find documentation there? > Because I looked and didn't find any. No, sorry, The only documentation I was able to find is the one i pointed to you AND the code by daphile patches that you could find in my repo in gitHub. I'm lookig for some better spec for ASIO formats to be used with PA. maybe you could try a search over the XMOS documentation: https://www.xmos.com/search/content?term=DSD. header: I was talking about header, but is non a 'real' header, is the way the device is opened by ALSA, see output_alsa.c pippin wrote: > > Playback. For control there's nothing special to do. > > I did find the USB specifics and while I don't have a good idea, yet, on > whether it's even possible to send stuff in USB raw mode in current iOS > versions at least I can't > find any specifics of _what_ to send. See how Squeezelite pack the data into pcm formats. pippin wrote: > > Everybody seems to just use ready-made components on both sides, hack > stuff together and hope they understand each other but nowhere seems to > be any documentation of what's actually supposed to be happening. No, there is nothing 'ready made', we have sample implementation that works and we could adapt them to work in our application too. I was lucky that Daphile produced the patch to be applied to squeezelite in ALSA, then I've to find out the way with ASIO. pippin wrote: > > As far as I can see SqueezeLite just sends the stream it gest directly > to ALSA which is then supposed to understand it... Err, well... Is not like that, it wrap and pack DSD data into pcm frames, using different formats (one of them is DOP) , depending on capabilities of the audio device. pippin wrote: > > Or to a 3rd party DSD-to-PCM converter - which I could use if I don't > find a DSD capable DAC It's just an open source work that Triode included in squeezelite AND dsdPlay plugin long time ago. No needs to reinvent the wheel here, but I preffer NOT to send DSD to squeezelite and let it convert back to PCM. Since it knows what codecs the dac is capable and with slimpropo it retunrs this info to LMS, C-3PO disable dsd output for that player, so conversion - if needed -is applied server side. pippin wrote: > > but I'd still prefer to understand what's actually happening there.. It' easy, source code is there and completely open, too bad is not like that with ASIO or others. pippin wrote: > > Not even that. For control I don't need to do anything, it's all handled > server-side. As I supposed. pippin wrote: > > There are no "drivers" in iOS. > I can either do anything myself sending stuff in USB raw mode or it > won't work at all. Some apps claim to be able to do that (OnkyoHF, for > example) but I could not get them to work here, but it might be my > setup. That's why I want to understand what to do. Can't help here, but have a look to the XMOS site, they claims support for iOs for their interfaces and have a development platform. BTW, Somehow the device should be opened, this is normally done by drivers call from applications via sound system (or operating system), don't know nothing about iOs, but how it open and talk with the sound device? SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote: > When you 'transcode' PCM to DSD you transcode to dsf, dff or other few > file/stream formats. > What does your plugin transcode to? I mean... shouldn't you know? DSF and DFF are documented formats, if you stream those I can read them but I can't seem to find anything about what these "native" streaming actually is, format wise. I do understand DoP (it's well documented) but not the XMOS stuff and not what the "native" LMS formats are. > > When we talk about 'native' (a wrong name if any) we reffer to pack > i.e. 5684800 DSD frames (1 second of music) into 88200 frames of 32 > bits, that look exactly like PCM 88200/32, adding just an header with > all the information (lenght included) about the stream at the really > beginning, with a negligeable overhead. > Do you have a specification for that container and header? > > One point is that different interfaces uses different 'native' formats, > where the difference is the endianess, so - depending on the format > required - the player should revert the order of bits in byte. > Well, first of all you should know the format I couldn't find anything- > > see https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd for refference and > details. > Can you be more specific as to where I can find documentation there? Because I looked and didn't find any. > > Wich support you want to add? > Playback. For control there's nothing special to do. I did find the USB specifics and while I don't have a good idea, yet, on whether it's even possible to send stuff in USB raw mode in current iOS versions at least I can't find any specifics of _what_ to send. Everybody seems to just use ready-made components on both sides, hack stuff together and hope they understand each other but nowhere seems to be any documentation of what's actually supposed to be happening. As far as I can see SqueezeLite just sends the stream it gest directly to ALSA which is then supposed to understand it... Err, well... Or to a 3rd party DSD-to-PCM converter - which I could use if I don't find a DSD capable DAC but I'd still prefer to understand what's actually happening there. > > To just controll LMS I'm quite sure you don't need anything more than > profiles defined and enabled via custom-convert.conf or C-3PO in LMS, > Not even that. For control I don't need to do anything, it's all handled server-side. > > maybe you could have a look > here:https://github.com/marcoc1712/squeezelite-R2 dsd.c, dop.c an > doutput_alsa.c is what you are looking for. Inside daphile_patches > folder you'll find the original patches to Triode's squeezelite, but > first be sure you have some non DOP DSD enabled dirvers to use in iOs. There are no "drivers" in iOS. I can either do anything myself sending stuff in USB raw mode or it won't work at all. Some apps claim to be able to do that (OnkyoHF, for example) but I could not get them to work here, but it might be my setup. That's why I want to understand what to do. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > I want to support native DSD in iOS. > I can't find anything about how that "native" format looks like. Is that > what you transcode to if you transcode to DSD? > What does the player do with it if it needs to convert back to e.g. DoP? When you 'transcode' PCM to DSD you transcode to dsf, dff or other few file/stream formats. Dsf and Dff are the two major format introduced by SONY and PHILIPS, but we have few others. In all we have 1 bit dept samples at very hight rate. dsf could have tags, dff could not just like wav. i.e. DSD64 = 2822400Hz = 64 * 44100Hz = 5.684.800 b/sec for a 2 channel stream. DSD128 is the double an so on. But as you well know there is nothing like 'bitstream' in computer world, we talk about bytes and structures, so when we need to 'move' form the disk (or the memory) to the driver and so on, we move bytes. Here comes "DSD over PCM", meaning you encapsulate somehow DSD RAW data inside PCM frames and move them allover. When we talk about 'native' (a wrong name if any) we reffer to pack i.e. 5684800 DSD frames (1 second of music) into 88200 frames of 32 bits, that look exactly like PCM 88200/32, adding just an header with all the information (lenght included) about the stream at the really beginning, with a negligeable overhead. What is called DOP, is just a specific 24bit format, where 16bit are data and 8 are reserved for a 'marker' always wth a fixed value. The standard says that is DOP when 5 consecutives frames has the marker, is not DOP anymore but PCM if just one frame is without marker. This could prevent problems when mixing DOP and PCM streams, but at the cost to double the bit rate, infact DSD64 converted to DOP become a 176KHz, 32 bit stream. That's why 'native' are prefered. In both cases the player receive a bit steam, then it has to pack the bits in bytes and in specific formats. One point is that different interfaces uses different 'native' formats, where the difference is the endianess, so - depending on the format required - the player should revert the order of bits in byte. that's almost all. Until few month ago, the only drivers capable of 'native' DSD where the originals and proprietary ASIO drivers both in Win and Mac Osx. Now ALSA could handle 'native' dsd too, but only for XMOS devices, see https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd for refference and details. Wich support you want to add? To just controll LMS I'm quite sure you don't need anything more than profiles defined and enabled via custom-convert.conf or C-3PO in LMS, For playback I don't know, but if I well recall you use some sort of squeezeplay arent you? maybe you could have a look here:https://github.com/marcoc1712/squeezelite-R2 dsd.c, dop.c an doutput_alsa.c is what you are looking for. Inside daphile_patches folder you'll find the original patches to Triode's squeezelite, but first be sure you have some non DOP DSD enabled dirvers to use in iOs. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
I want to support native DSD in iOS. How do you know the DAC's capability? --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > What format do you stream DSD in? LMS -> [transcoding->] dsf || dff -> Player -> DOP || 'native (*)' -> XMOS DAC. If the player is squeezelite-R2 it will stream DOP or 'native' depending on the capability of the DAC. With XMOS on ALSA it will use speciific 'native' formats, that still are 'wrapped' dsd in pcm frames, but are much similar to ASIO/DSD formats than DOP (don't have marker in words but headers). (*) see here: https://github.com/lintweaker/xmos-native-dsd. Goal is to support 'native' ASIO DSD in win and macOsx via portaudio, but I'm still investigating. Remember, if you start from DSD files and just want DOP playback, better use DSDPLAY plugin. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
What format do you stream DSD in? --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > So what you are saying is that as long as you don't change the format or > sample rate it will work with any player? Yes, but also that if you output any format other than raw pcm any player should (I can't say this for sure) work. To be clear: nothing differend than using 'correct' custom-convert.conf commands is involved here, point is this is just a sort of 'compiler' for that commands, capable to load them directly to LMS table without restart the system. pippin wrote: > > BTW: what do you send DSD as? DoP? PLEASE NOTE: DSD handling is now in beta testing (http://www.marcoc1712.it/downloads/repository_beta.xml ), the current version (http://www.marcoc1712.it/downloads/repository.xml ) can't handle DSD at all. Assuming we are talking about the new beta version: No, for that you could/should use dsdPlay plugin. I've decided to not overlap others. You could read any file or stream coming in any of the supported format (AIF,ALAC,WAV,AIFF,FLAC,DSF,DFF at the monent), convert it to DSD at the rate you choose and your player (and server) is capabe of. Is the player is not capable to read dsf or dff format, you could convert dsf or dff to pcm applying a low pass filter, then handle this result as you like before send it to the player. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote: > R2 patch (-w option in squeezelite) is necessary to inspect the wav > header instead to 'believe' slimptoto command that is always reporting > the sample rate of the origin file or stream. > > Al the other is working in any SBs. So what you are saying is that as long as you don't change the format or sample rate it will work with any player? BTW: what do you send DSD as? DoP? --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > But does that work with SBs, too, or only with SqueezeLite-R2? R2 patch (-w option in squeezelite) is necessary to inspect the wav header instead to 'believe' slimptoto command that is always reporting the sample rate of the origin file or stream. Al the other is working in any SBs. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > > LMS can not transcode FLAC streams to PCM. It can transcode FLAC files > to PCM. > The OP wants to use FLAC streams from Qobuz, for that to work, FLAC > native playback needs to be enabled. That's not true. Is enought to enable "I" Capabilities, then you could transcode flac to pcm from file or stream as you like. There is a 'strange' feature in TranscodingHelper.pm when calculating capabilities, preventing I to be used when T/U are selected, at least in windows, so you need to remove T/U from the transcoding profile, that meaning you could not use cue files. I think this is a bug, but that is. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote: > That's exacltly why I wrote C-3PO plugin: becouse was already feasible > in LMS 'as is' but somehow complicated, with the plugin I hope to just > make it easier. > > Don't like it? dont' use it. But it works. But does that work with SBs, too, or only with SqueezeLite-R2? --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > Exactly my point. If your music plays at wrong speed or cuts out or > doesn't play at all, no speaker will ever correct that That's exacltly why I wrote C-3PO plugin: becouse was already feasible in LMS 'as is' but somehow complicated, with the plugin I hope to just make it easier. Don't like it? dont' use it. But it works. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote: > > > I agree Tweeking dac and speakers is easier, but what you lost at the > sourse is lost... no matter how much you tweek speakers and dac. Exactly my point. If your music plays at wrong speed or cuts out or doesn't play at all, no speaker will ever correct that --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Mnyb wrote: > English is not my first language . Nor mine, I apologize for that. Mnyb wrote: > > However I like your idea to make something better than the current way > of setting transcoding and file format. > The menus as they exist today are quite incomprehensible . It's my hope and the goal of C-3PO, preserving the way LMS works in all supported platforms. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote: > I should miss something: > > Is LMS not intended to output pcm? > > p.s. > > Are you blaiming people as 'believers' using a 'should' as a proof of > evidence? English is not my first language . Is using LMS in an unnecessary complicated way for nothing better ? Non standard setup and a transcoding process running ? By use as intended , I mean not use the file types setting or convert conf as tweak options and just leave them as delivered and enjoy the music . Less work and you get a setup that works predictable . You can create more problems with file types and convert-conf . You have written your own plugin and thus figured how the transcoding really work so you can probably predict setup problems better than most . The existence of this tread proves a point a user stuck in this trying to solve a non existing problem. And also engages others to help . My honest advice is that there migth not be a problem to begin with ? Now I've done that. However I like your idea to make something better than the current way of setting transcoding and file format. The menus as they exist today are quite incomprehensible . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Mnyb wrote: > Yes the real solution is to stop believing this makes a difference and > use LMS as intended . > > OP to this tread has quite good hardware so the "problem" should not be > a real one . > > It can take some emotional and mental effort to get over it but a series > well done double blind tests should be convincing ? > > One is just making having a digital music collection harder than it > needs to be a lot work for nothing. I should miss something: Is LMS not intended to output pcm? p.s. Are you blaiming people as 'believers' using a 'should as a proof of evidence? SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > Oh, the bandwidth is not. > But all your traffic over WiFi is AES encrypted, an algorithm that is > much more complex and creates a lot more load than FLAC... > And with PCM you have to decrypt twice the data. > > It wouldn't be my main concern, though. My experience is simply that PCM > creates lots of trouble as you can see in this thread and others. And > music cutting out, playing with the wrong speed, not at all... all these > things don't really "sound better" to me, but yea, that's just me, I > feel to have the music work in the first place more important, for the > sound tweaking I use the speakers and maybe the DAC I'm not going to debate this topig again but let mi remind you that it has already been investigated here and was prooved that CPU usage added by network overhead is less than converting flac to pcm. BTW I've not said it's becouse of CPU usage. I agree Tweeking dac and speakers is easier, but what you lost at the sourse is lost... no matter how much you tweek speakers and dac. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Yes the real solution is to stop believing this makes a difference and use LMS as intended . OP to this tread has quite good hardware so the "problem" should not be a real one . It can take some emotional and mental effort to get over it but a series well done double blind tests should be convincing ? One is just making having a digital music collection harder than it needs to be a lot work for nothing. Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
marcoc1712 wrote: > That's an old story... > We could discuss it once again or admit that someone is feeling better > with wav, as I do with all of my players (classic, duet, SB+ and > squeezelite on various hw and OS) and that's why I wrote squeezelite-R2 > and C-3PO. > > Flac is indeed very good for storing and tagging, so a convenient > solution is to store flac, convert it on the fly server side and stream > pcm to clients. Cost is 50% more of bandwidht, but nowaday, sure, is not > a big deal even with wifi connected players. Oh, the bandwidth is not. But all your traffic over WiFi is AES encrypted, an algorithm that is much more complex and creates a lot more load than FLAC... --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > I mean... FLAC is such a low-impact codec that you have to do a lot > wrong in your system or software design to make it have any impact on > sound. That's an old story... We could discuss it once again or admit that someone is feeling better with wav, as I do with all of my players (classic, duet, SB+ and squeezelite on various hw and OS) and that's why I wrote squeezelite-R2 and C-3PO. Flac is indeed very good for storing and tagging, so a convenient solution is to store flac, convert it on the fly server side and stream pcm to clients. Cost is 50% more of bandwidht, but nowaday, sure, is not a big deal even with wifi connected players. SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
bpa wrote: > OP says "In my system I find that PCM sounds better than flac.". > > What do you mean by remote tracks ? I can set up http/AAC strreams not > use Flac i.e. sent as PCM/WAv (not sure which) > > Usual problem about PCM is no header so that non 44khz/16 have a > problem. IIRC I think user marcoc has a special fix for squeelite > players to play PCM at non CD rates. Yep, that fix originated in squeezelite-R2 (a minilalist version, see here: https://github.com/marcoc1712/squeezelite-R2) to be used with C-3PO (a plugin aimed first to replace the usage of file type and custom-convert.conf, but soon turned to be a 'transcoding central', adding more capabilities, last on the fly DSD conversion that is non in test stage, see here: https://github.com/marcoc1712/C-3PO) That fix is now included in the 'community' version of squeezelite, maintained by Ralphy, using option -W and in Daphile (no option). SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Hi, I come across the very same problem in writing C-3PO plugin and I solved introducing I capabilities in the flac to pcm transcode command. That way even the stream from Qobuz is transcoded to PCM and then resamped tho whatever samplerate you want. You could even choose to decode to DSD. Only cavet: in windows you could not enable both I and T/U Capabilities, so can't use cue files on flac anymore. You could see here for code and examples: https://github.com/marcoc1712/C-3PO/releases SB+, Klimo Merlino + Kent Gold, Monitor Audio Studio 20 Gold SE+, Klimo reference and DIS Interconnect. marcoc1712's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=34842 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Hi Pippin, No wired LAN. MANY moons ago I set up a CMP(2) PC which I used to play my digital files. With that, mainly NAIM, system I heard NO difference between WAV and FLAC. About ten years ago a bought a Naim NS01. this was before they produced 'streamers'. This worked well for me, but WAV was now better than FLAC. A few months ago my NS01 died and I decided to try the Sonore microRendu. In some ways a big step forward. But, a few weeks ago I found myself becoming unsatisfied. A few days ago I realised that in solving one problem I had changed my config and now the WAV files were being streamed as FLAC. The effect was to introduce a general feel of edge and cymbals lost the sound of sheen and metal but became edgy splash. Changing the config restored order .but, it made me hope that I could listen to Qobuz streamed as PCM and hear whether this gave me a similar lift. Depending on the recording Qobuz can still sound very good, but I suspect that in my system I might be able to get a bit better - if there is a way to transcode the FLAC. I have started an email exchange with Phillipe. That bridge looks like a significant amount of work. Reading the support page I suspect the bridge won't solve this for me. I have read as many threads on this subject as I can find, for most this problem is a tangent. Not come across anything yet. Thx, M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Well, you could try to find one of those other threads where they discussed the issue to see whether there is a workaround. What kind of system is that? I mean... FLAC is such a low-impact codec that you have to do a lot wrong in your system or software design to make it have any impact on sound. You are not on WiFi, I assume? --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Hi Pippin, That is precisely what I do have. However, PCM sounds better in my system. Therefore I would LOVE to try streaming Q as PCM .which it would appear I cannot. M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Hm, wait. In this case you should be able to just set both FLAC and PCM to native and neither should be converted. That way your WAV files get streamed as PCM and Qobuz as FLAC --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Hi Apes, The rule wouldn't be invoked locally as all my files are stored as WAV. M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Just curious, did your local 16/44 FLAC files show up at the DAC as 24/96 using this CUSTOM-CONVERT.CONF? Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Hi bpa, Thanks for replying. It has got me looking under the hood far more. Shame this isn't possible. M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
There are several threads on the FLAC-to-PCM thing for streams here in the forum because it comes up from time to time. I think phillipe44 has found some workaround for his plugins (the bridging plugins) where he needed the capability because UPnP requires a PCM stream to be available but I don't remember what he did to get this to work, a plugin is probably more flexible WRT finding a solution than a simple user setup --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Mr Underhill wrote:
> I just did install LAME, to discover your point - allows MP3, something
> in which I have no interest!
Not "allow"s but supports encoding into MP3 for user who need minimum
bitrate for remote players or which to play via a browser.
I know nothing about Qobuz.
In your log the message says
>
> [17-02-13 11:25:11.4105]
> Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::getConvertCommand2 (361) Rejecting
> [flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t wav - -b 24
> -r 96k because no available stream mode supported: I,R
>
You have indicated in the convert file that input is from a file ("# F")
but Qobuz seems to be a streaming service or remote which is usually a
type "R" but I think it is doing something special as it is a subcriber
service.
I suspect you'll have to look deeper into the plugin to get the
conversion you want. How about posting on Qobuz thread and get
developers opinion ?
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Ok. Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
bpa wrote: > OP says "In my system I find that PCM sounds better than flac.". > I got that. But he has wrong pitch on some tracks, Qobuz doesn't play at all, that's the price for using PCM. Better get a system that can properly handle FLAC if the sound is so bad. > > What do you mean by remote tracks ? I can set up http/AAC strreams not > use Flac i.e. sent as PCM/WAv (not sure which) > AAC is not FLAC. LMS can not transcode FLAC streams to PCM. It can transcode FLAC files to PCM. The OP wants to use FLAC streams from Qobuz, for that to work, FLAC native playback needs to be enabled. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
pippin wrote: > LMS doesn't support transcoding to PCM for remote tracks. > Your playback-pitch problem is also a typical PCM issue due to the lack > of format information. > > Use FLAC. OP says "In my system I find that PCM sounds better than flac.". What do you mean by remote tracks ? I can set up http/AAC strreams not use Flac i.e. sent as PCM/WAv (not sure which) Usual problem about PCM is no header so that non 44khz/16 have a problem. IIRC I think user marcoc has a special fix for squeelite players to play PCM at non CD rates. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
LMS doesn't support transcoding to PCM for remote tracks. Your playback-pitch problem is also a typical PCM issue due to the lack of format information. Use FLAC. --- learn more about iPeng, the iPhone and iPad remote for the Squeezebox and Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, at penguinlovesmusic.com *New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch* pippin's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13777 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
I just did install LAME, to discover your point - allows MP3, something in which I have no interest! File attached - thx. M +---+ |Filename: LMSlog.txt | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22115| +---+ Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Lame is not relevant as you are not transcoding MP3 This convert problem is within LMS - it may not be your original problem. To see what "rules" have been accepted (e.g. it is p[ossible your custom convert file has a typo such as using spaces instead of a tab) you should look at the Setting/Advanced/FileTypes and detail what rules are available and their current settings./ Post complete log (note time start of test, do test, copy all entries from start of test to end of test into text file, zip text file and then attach to a post) as sometimes the lines that are missing are important - and if you are not familiar you cannot knwo what is missing. Fragments pf a log are generally useless. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Thx for the help. Looking in the log with player.source set to debug I see: -[17-02-13 09:40:26.0510] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::enabledFormat (212) Testing flc-aif-*-* vs flc-aif-*-* [17-02-13 09:40:26.0516] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::enabledFormat (216) ** flc-aif-*-* Disabled ** [17-02-13 09:40:26.0521] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::checkBin (231) Checking formats for: flc-pcm-squeezelite-00:52:1c:61:ac:76 [17-02-13 09:40:26.0527] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::checkBin (231) Checking formats for: flc-pcm-*-00:52:1c:61:ac:76 [17-02-13 09:40:26.0532] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::checkBin (231) Checking formats for: flc-pcm-squeezelite-* [17-02-13 09:40:26.0538] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::checkBin (231) Checking formats for: flc-pcm-*-* [17-02-13 09:40:26.0543] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::enabledFormat (198) Checking to see if flc-pcm-*-* is enabled [17-02-13 09:40:26.0549] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::enabledFormat (206) There are 3 disabled formats... [17-02-13 09:40:26.0554] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::enabledFormat (212) Testing flc-aif-*-* vs flc-pcm-*-* [17-02-13 09:40:26.0559] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::enabledFormat (212) Testing flc-flc-*-* vs flc-pcm-*-* [17-02-13 09:40:26.0565] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::enabledFormat (212) Testing wav-flc-*-* vs flc-pcm-*-* [17-02-13 09:40:26.0570] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::checkBin (239) enabled [17-02-13 09:40:26.0575] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::checkBin (241) Found command: [flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t wav - -b 24 -r 96k [17-02-13 09:40:26.0581] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::getConvertCommand2 (361) Rejecting [flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t wav - -b 24 -r 96k because no available stream mode supported: R- Before noting: - [17-02-13 09:40:26.0651] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::checkBin (264) couldn't find binary for: lame [17-02-13 09:40:26.1100] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::getConvertCommand2 (425) Error: Didn't find any command matches for type: flc- It then runs round a similar loop ending with: -[17-02-13 09:40:26.1025] Slim::Player::TranscodingHelper::getConvertCommand2 (361) Rejecting [flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t wav - -b 24 -r 96k because no available stream mode supported: I,R- THOUGHTS LAME is not installed on the Synology as part of the LMS package. Is this a problem on the Synology OR within the Squeezelite client on the microRendu? Any pointers gratefully received. M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Do the local hi-res FLAC files play? Apesbrain's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=738 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
The server.log shows: Slim::Player::Song::open (409) Error: Couldn't create command line for flc playback for [qobuz://6451400.flac] I'll look at the config and see whether I can increase verbosity. M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
"Playing" for 4-6 sec only with no audio usually means the convert rule failed and LMS timed out. Enable logging player.source to debug to see what conversion rules are being applied. bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
OK. Created and edited the custom-convert.conf and changed the LMS settings. The tracks are not playing. They try for 4 sec before moving to the next track. I will contact Jesus at Sonore and try and confirm what is happening on the mR before reading the documentation and playing with the options. Th for your help. M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
I'll report back. Cheers, M Mr Underhill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=66596 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106956 ___ Squeezecenter mailing list Squeezecenter@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/squeezecenter
Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] Streaming Remote FLAC > PCM & Local 24/192
Giving you an untested starting point:
1. Paste the code below into CUSTOM-CONVERT.CONF (make sure there is no
.TXT at the end) and put the file in same folder as CONVERT.CONF
2. Restart LMS or reboot your server/NAS
3. In LMS "Settings", go to "Advanced" tab and "File Types" drop-down:
- Set FLAC - FLAC to "Disabled"
- Confirm FLAC - PCM is set to "flac/sox"
- Click "Apply" at bottom right. LMS will restart and you're ready
to test.
NOTE: You can't break anything so long as you don't edit CONVERT.CONF.
(Make a backup copy first if you're concerned.) If things go wrong,
just delete/rename CUSTOM-CONVERT.CONF and restart LMS.
Code:
# Convert all FLAC to 24/192 PCM/WAV
flc pcm * *
# FT:{START=--skip=%t}U:{END=--until=%v}
[flac] -dcs $START$ $END$ -- $FILE$ | [sox] -q -t wav - -t wav - -b 24
-r 192k
If that does not work, here is more information:
FLAC Manual -
https://xiph.org/flac/documentation_tools_flac.html#decoding_options
SoX Manual - http://sox.sourceforge.net/sox.html
Mr Underhill wrote:
> I have a number of 24/192 WAV files. If I try and stream them they play
> like 45s being played at 33. I do not think this is an issue with the
> microRendu as I can stream them with no problems via upnp.
This part bothers me though. The microRendu may want the WAV files in a
particular format (e.g. RAW, big/little endian); I have no idea. You
may need to play around with options in the last line of your
CUSTOM-CONVERT.CONF. You'll find some hints in CONVERT.CONF. If you
get this to work with FLAC, you can add to the CUSTOM-CONVERT.CONF to
fix the WAV issue.
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