Re: Can anyone identify this Accucraft engine?

[tom leaton]

Brian==

Lovely model engine, there.   As to your queries:  Baldwin used crimson lake 
for a cab color.  All the D&RG C-16 photos I have seen have sand pipes.   If 
it looks like RGS  No. 9 then that is good as both were Baldwin C-16s.   It 
is perfectly stock, as far as I can see, and a good model of a c-16, too.   
I'd be proud of it.

Tom  Leaton

_
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*  
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Re: Can anyone identify this Accucraft engine?

[Kevin Strong]

Is that Vance Bass saying "mess with it only if you must?" You're not 
turning into a collector, are you??? (Must be the heat...) Certainly, 
there is an implied appreciation of history, but if it's not what you 
want, change it. I've got two locomotives that if left untouched would 
have "collector" value, but they weren't what I wanted. Now, they are. 
Will they make me rich when I go to sell them? No. However, since I put 
the time to make them what I want, I have no incentive to sell them. 
They're worth far more to me now than they ever would be as a 
"collector's piece."

The live steam hobby is perhaps at its most creative point ever on this 
side of the pond. No more are people just running what is commercially 
available. Modifications run the gamut from a simple coat of paint all 
the way to tearing everything apart and rebuilding it in a different 
form, if not completely scratchbuilding it. What's more, the price of 
the locomotive is having less and less of an effect on the amount of 
modifications. Granted, no one's tearing apart an Aster Big Boy...yet... 
but we are seeing some of the "cheaper" $3,000 asters being modified and 
kitbashed.

Moral of this missive, don't be afraid to take what you have and make it 
what you want. There's enough experience on this list to get you over 
any hump you may encounter along the way.

Later,

K

Re: NOT Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Steve Shyvers]

Richard,

I had a similar experience with Sta-Silv and brass. I had just bought 
the Sta-Silv and thought I'd get fancy and use it to do a soft soldering 
job (2% silver). I was soldering up a small tank, and as I proceeded to 
solder the sheet brass started to disappear. I wound up with an oval 
hole in the side of the tank where brass had been. I guarantee that the 
temperature was not hot enough to have melted the brass.

I switched to the recommended flux for the solder I was using and had no 
more trouble. I easily soldered a patch over the unplanned hole. I 
concluded that there had been a reaction between the Sta-Silv and the 
zinc in the brass.

Because I'd bought the Sta-Silv specifically for silver (hard) 
soldering, I've been leary about silver soldering brass fittings since. 
There's either a more benign flux to use for brass when silver 
soldering, or, as you suspect, the concentration of the flux needs to be 
just right.

Harry, are you listening?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I just soldered a new bushing into a fuel tank for a venting filler 
valve. I tossed all my old flux when I had to pack up my tools a few 
years ago. I remembered that Borax could be used for flux. Mixed some 
up. Cleaned all parts, fluxed, set bits of solder around... torched it 
up.

I think the flux ATE the brass bushing once it got hot. That little 
bushing just started disintegrating. I grab the tank with pliers and 
knocked the bushing out so I could regroup and start over. I used a 
much much lower concentration of borax to water on the 2nd try and it 
worked OK. Still ate just a tiny edge off the bushing.

So, did the borax actually eat the brass? Or is something else going 
on there? Is there a published way to make flux out of borax? Should I 
just go get some "proper" flux?

The nice thing about big steamups (National Summer Steamups, D'head) 
is that I usually get my tail end in gear and do some loco maintenance 
and improvements!

Regards,

-Richard

Re: Can anyone identify this Accucraft engine?

[Vance Bass]

Brian,

What you have is the original, as-built version of the C-16, 
characterized by the fluted domes, diamond stack, drop-shadow 
lettering on the tender, long pilot, etc.  It looks dead stock to me. Mess 
with it only if you must.  There's a photo of mine, for comparison, on 
my web site's main page.

(Hint: If you do feel the need to mess with it, I make laser-cut 
replacement cab and pilot kits for it.  See link.)

best regards,
  -Vance-

Vance Bass
FH&PB Railroad Supply Co.
6933 Cherry Hills Loop NE
Albuquerque, NM 87111 USA
http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/fhpb/
 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Michael Martin]

Yes, I went through three oxygen cylinders at about $8 each (and that was about
7 or 8 years ago) when silver soldering a 1 5/8" dia. x 6" long copper boiler
with a 7/8" dia. steam dome.  I managed to get the job done, albeit somewhat
sloppy, i.e. way too much alloy.  I also melted the corner of the brass
filler/safety valve bushing.  (Hey Richard, It never occurred to me to blame it
on the flux...  :-) )

To sum it up - the tiny flame burns at a very high temperature (over 5,000' F) -
but the total heat content is rather low.  I'd pass on it.

Mike Martin



Check out my steam related pages at:
http://www.panyo.com/steamups 

Can anyone identify this Accucraft engine?

[Brian Scott]

Hello fellow listers.

I've been lurking on this group for about a year now and have learned many
things. Mostly that there's a lot to learn. I'm exiting lurk mode with an
announcement and a question.
Firstly, the Copperhead & Prickly Pear RR is a reality. (It was going to be
the Copper Ridge & Prickly Pear RR but the acronym didn't look good.) I've
just finished laying the last piece of track and will post pics on my
website on Sunday. For anyone interested.
Secondly, like the subject line says, I just got an Accucraft
live steam D&RGW C-16 through an online supplier and it doesn't look right.
To me, that is. If anyone here would care to drop by
http://home.cogeco.ca/~scott3013/  and let me know what this is I would rest
easier.

TIA
and I'll be steaming soon.

Brian Scott
 

Re: NOT Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Harry Wade]

At 05:03 PM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
>I just soldered a new bushing into a fuel tank for a venting filler 
>I think the flux ATE the brass bushing

Richard,
 Not knowing any more than I do about the conditions/materials I'd say
the bushing got too hot.  The line between silver solder flow temperature
and brass meltdown temperature can be a very fine one.

Regards,
Harry
 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Harry Wade]

At 04:33 PM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Thanks, Harry. I bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge,
>Steve

 Well, all I'll admit to is having read or been told a bit more about
other's experiences than the average bear, being able to remember and
regurgitate it on demand, and then having tried them a few times, with
mixed results.  Like most people, I'm not all that chatty about my
failures.  :-)  Re statement #1, 95% of my time is still spent reading and
listening to other people's experiences.

Regards,
Harry
 

Re: NOT Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Richard Finlayson]

I just soldered a new bushing into a fuel tank for a venting filler 
valve. I tossed all my old flux when I had to pack up my tools a few 
years ago. I remembered that Borax could be used for flux. Mixed some 
up. Cleaned all parts, fluxed, set bits of solder around... torched 
it up.

I think the flux ATE the brass bushing once it got hot. That little 
bushing just started disintegrating. I grab the tank with pliers and 
knocked the bushing out so I could regroup and start over. I used a 
much much lower concentration of borax to water on the 2nd try and it 
worked OK. Still ate just a tiny edge off the bushing.

So, did the borax actually eat the brass? Or is something else going 
on there? Is there a published way to make flux out of borax? Should 
I just go get some "proper" flux?

The nice thing about big steamups (National Summer Steamups, D'head) 
is that I usually get my tail end in gear and do some loco 
maintenance and improvements!

Regards,

-Richard


Thanks, Harry. I bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge, and, 
most of all, to your willingness to share it.

Regards,
Steve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

At 03:43 PM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:

Harry, would it be more correct to say that you were trying to break the
  

surface tension of the molten solder blob in order to make it run along the
joint?
Theoretically solders won't flow, or rather wet, because the flux has
broken down or was inadequate to begin with or a contaminate, usually an
oxide of some sort, has formed on the target surfaces.  The idea of
scratching is to attempt to remove or at least displace some of that oxide
in order to encourage the solder to stick.  The failure of scratching in
silver soldering is due to the high temps involved and the quick formation
of hard oxides or burnt contaminates.  Another hopeless non-starter is
attempting to add a fluid flux to a joint at brazing temp.
Regards,
Harry

--
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. 
Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://shopnow.netscape.com/


--
==
Richard Finlayson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Steve Shyvers]

Thanks, Harry. I bow to your superior wisdom and knowledge, and, most of 
all, to your willingness to share it.

Regards,
Steve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

At 03:43 PM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
 

Harry, would it be more correct to say that you were trying to break the
   

surface tension of the molten solder blob in order to make it run along the
joint?
Theoretically solders won't flow, or rather wet, because the flux has
broken down or was inadequate to begin with or a contaminate, usually an
oxide of some sort, has formed on the target surfaces.  The idea of
scratching is to attempt to remove or at least displace some of that oxide
in order to encourage the solder to stick.  The failure of scratching in
silver soldering is due to the high temps involved and the quick formation
of hard oxides or burnt contaminates.  Another hopeless non-starter is
attempting to add a fluid flux to a joint at brazing temp.
Regards,
Harry
 

--
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. 
Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://shopnow.netscape.com/

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Harry Wade]

At 03:43 PM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Harry, would it be more correct to say that you were trying to break the
surface tension of the molten solder blob in order to make it run along the
joint?

 Theoretically solders won't flow, or rather wet, because the flux has
broken down or was inadequate to begin with or a contaminate, usually an
oxide of some sort, has formed on the target surfaces.  The idea of
scratching is to attempt to remove or at least displace some of that oxide
in order to encourage the solder to stick.  The failure of scratching in
silver soldering is due to the high temps involved and the quick formation
of hard oxides or burnt contaminates.  Another hopeless non-starter is
attempting to add a fluid flux to a joint at brazing temp.

Regards,
Harry
 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Steve Shyvers]

Royce and Harry,

Thanks for the explanation about "scratch". Harry, would it be more 
correct to say that you were trying to break the surface tension of the 
molten solder blob in order to make it run along the joint?

I understand Royce's comment about the process failing if you have to 
scratch it. I did a little bit of silver soldering the other day and had 
just about given up on one joint. The solder blob had partially melted 
and had an uneven surface and a slightly darker color. If I'd had a 
scratch rod I'd have used it. As it was I turned up the Mapp gas a 
little bit and held the torch steadier adjacent to the joint and the 
solder, most of it anyway, eventually wicked along the joint.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

At 09:01 AM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
 

Well, maybe that's not the correct term,
   

  It absolutely is the correct term, in fact there is such an animal as a
"scratch rod" for soft soldering.  This is nothing more than a piece of
steel rod with a crook and a pointy end on it.  It's used to scratch
through the solder puddle to encourage it to adhere where it refuses to
adhere.  Royce is also pretty much correct when he says that in silver
soldering if you need to use a scratch rod the process has failed.  But
every once in a while I try using scratch to save a joint and it sometimes
helps, sometimes not.
Regards,
Harry
 

--
Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. 
Experience the convenience of buying online with [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
http://shopnow.netscape.com/

RE: Running our way

[Dave Cole]

chad:

yes, i've participated in some of jack verducci's all-afternoon 
operating sessions and they definitely require goodall valves and 
water pumps (jack has a pressurized tank at his roundhouse in 
addition to various water bottles). a little too stressful for me 
(hey, i'm in this hobby to relax), but it is great to see actual 
operations in live steam.


btw, jack will be giving a clinic at the summer steamup july 19, on 
how these events work ... probably worth the $75 to come in on 
saturday alone.


\dmc


Harry,
No these guys are great just like most people in the hobby.
I've tried it a couple of times and my engines usually run out of steam in
the middle of a run so it clogs up the track.
The layout that we have access to is large and the track often disappears
behind things like the garage and house. If I could get a decent water pump
and extend out the run times then it would be better.
Chad
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Harry Wade
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:07 PM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: Running our way
At 11:42 AM 7/7/03 -0700, you wrote:
we have a club here in Arizona that like to run schedules and do switching
and
whatnot. It's looks fun but because of the short run times and the fact
that
my engine usually run out of steam in the middle of a run, I can't
participate.
Chad
Chad,
  I'm wondering if you've been told by someone in the club that you
can't partcipate, or if you just decided for yourself not to try?
Regards,
Harry



--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003
For more information, visit the web site at 
^^^ 

RE: Running our way

[Chad]

Harry,
No these guys are great just like most people in the hobby.
I've tried it a couple of times and my engines usually run out of steam in
the middle of a run so it clogs up the track.
The layout that we have access to is large and the track often disappears
behind things like the garage and house. If I could get a decent water pump
and extend out the run times then it would be better.
Chad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Harry Wade
Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 12:07 PM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: Running our way


At 11:42 AM 7/7/03 -0700, you wrote:
>we have a club here in Arizona that like to run schedules and do switching
and
>whatnot. It's looks fun but because of the short run times and the fact
that
>my engine usually run out of steam in the middle of a run, I can't
participate.
>Chad

Chad,
  I'm wondering if you've been told by someone in the club that you
can't partcipate, or if you just decided for yourself not to try?

Regards,
Harry

 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Harry Wade]

At 09:01 AM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Well, maybe that's not the correct term,

   It absolutely is the correct term, in fact there is such an animal as a
"scratch rod" for soft soldering.  This is nothing more than a piece of
steel rod with a crook and a pointy end on it.  It's used to scratch
through the solder puddle to encourage it to adhere where it refuses to
adhere.  Royce is also pretty much correct when he says that in silver
soldering if you need to use a scratch rod the process has failed.  But
every once in a while I try using scratch to save a joint and it sometimes
helps, sometimes not.

Regards,
Harry
 

Re: Silver soldering Stainless Steel

[Harry Wade]

At 09:05 AM 7/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Harry, take note of the above.  THAT's the $10-20 cost I was talking about.

OK, flea market . . not new.  Minor difference in prices.  :-)

Regards,
Harry
 

RE: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Terry Griner]

Steve,
  I had one of those when I worked as a maintenance man for a popular Pizza restaurant 
chain (rhymes with mutt). The oxygen seamed to run out really fast. If you could get a 
small refillable oxygen bottle to attach instead of the disposable one it might be 
worth it.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Terry Griner
Columbus Ohio
 
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/10/03 11:22AM >>>
Has anyone tried the Bernzomatic Mapp/oxygen torch it retails for 50 USD
with disposable cylinders.  For the amount of Silversoldering I do in a year
even if I bought a couple of cylinders a year it would still be cost
effective.  I know the cost of the gas would be higher in the little
cylinders but not much is really required for hobby boilers.   I have silver
soldered a 1 ½ inch boiler with a single Mapp torch.
I do not know what the cylinder gas requirements are in Southern California
but I am sure/maybe is has become a painfully difficult process.  Hazardous
Material, AQMD, Fire Marshal, City Permit???
Steve
 

 

Re: Silver soldering Stainless Steel

[Royce Woodbury]

Terry Griner wrote:

Now  I have a Presto-lite Air Acetylene torch that works for all my silver soldering needs. I got it at a flea market for 20.00 USD and here in Columbus Ohio, I got a tank swap out for around 35.00 USD.

Harry, take note of the above.  THAT's the $10-20 cost I was talking 
about.  (But you don't get the bubble pack.)  ;  )

royce in SB

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Royce Woodbury]

Steve Shyvers wrote:

Royce,

What is the operation that you refer to as "scratch"? 
Well, maybe that's not the correct term, but it would refer to 
"encouraging" the silver solder to flow  where it doesn't seem inclined 
to go by means of a wire used to "scratch" or push the solder around.

PS   haven't gotten around to getting an appropriate photo to post.

royce in SB

Re: Silver soldering Stainless Steel

[Terry Griner]

Robb,
  I tried once to use Mapp gas to silver solder a boiler. I almost got the right temp. 
but not quite. When I added a propane torch heating the boiler body, then the solder 
flowed under the Mapp gas torch.
I just lit the Propane torch, pointed it at the boiler tube and blocked it into place 
with fire brick, that way I had 1 hand to hold the Mapp gas torch, and 1 hand to hold 
the solder against the joint.

Now  I have a Presto-lite Air Acetylene torch that works for all my silver soldering 
needs. I got it at a flea market for 20.00 USD and here in Columbus Ohio, I got a tank 
swap out for around 35.00 USD.

I'd say Royce has the right of it, put down the flux, unite the parts and put the 
solder along the joint, then heat the joint on the backside (away from the 
flux/solder) and wait for the solder to melt and flow into the joint.

Good luck 
Terry Griner
Columbus Ohio


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 07/10/03 10:23AM >>>
Hi Robb.


> Can an Oxy/acetylene torch be used to make a 2 ½" boiler? 

 From what I have read, oxy/acetylene is too much heat for our purposes 
unless you are welding.

> I see in my
> local paper a fellow has a used one for sale tomorrow at his garage
> sale.  

And I think that the turbo torch (acetylene only) torches are different 
than O/A torches.  You can't just turn off the oxygen.

>
> I have tried the two fisted Mapp gas method

Well, I had acetylene in my right hand.

> but I need about two more
> hands for flux and solder. 

And I use the method of fluxing (with black for boilers), laying on 
snippets (or rings) of silver solder, and heating until the solder flows 
into the heat (joint).  You don't need to "scratch".  In my experience, 
if you've reached the "scratch" point, the process has failed.

royce in SB
 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Steve Shyvers]

Royce,

What is the operation that you refer to as "scratch"?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You don't need to "scratch".  In my experience, if you've reached the 
"scratch" point, the process has failed.

Steve

RE: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Ciambrone, Steve @ OS]

Has anyone tried the Bernzomatic Mapp/oxegen torch it retails for 50 USD
with disposable cylinders.  For the amount of silversolderng I do in a year
even if I bought a couple of cylinders a year it would still be cost
effective.  I know the cost of the gas would be higher in the little
cylinders but not much is really required for hobby boilers.   I have silver
soldered a 1 1/2 inch boiler with a single Mapp torch.
I do not know what the cyclinder gas requirements are in Southern California
but I am sure/maybe is has become a painfully difficult process.  Hazardous
Material, AQMD, Fire Marshal, City Permit???
Steve
 

 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Tag Gorton]

On 10/7/03 8:05 am, "Mike Chaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>> I can explain volts / amps.
>> Volts = how fast the river is flowing
>> Amps = how wide it is
> 
> I used to teach electronics to adults using the "water analogy" to explain the
> relationship between voltage, current, resistance etc..  On one occasion,
> having
> spent about twenty minutes going through my spiel, a voice from the back (why
> is
> it always the back?) asked, "I understand the electricity bit, but what's all
> this stuff about water?"


In the Royal Navy I was taught to use the mnemonic "Virgins Are Rare" which
most young sailors found very easy to remember.  Some of the other mnemonics
were not only highly politically incorrect but unsuitable for the ears of
respectable young steamologists such as ourselves.  The resistor colour code
I have always remembered, the phrase taught for this purpose by a grizzled
old Chief Electrician would nowadays get him sacked
-- 

Yours Aye

Tag Gorton
Longlands & Western Railway
Trematon Office
Saltash

Cornwall

Directors: T. Gorton, Madame E. Lash
 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Royce Woodbury]

Hi Robb.


Can an Oxy/acetylene torch be used to make a 2 1/2" boiler? 
From what I have read, oxy/acetylene is too much heat for our purposes 
unless you are welding.

I see in my
local paper a fellow has a used one for sale tomorrow at his garage
sale.  
And I think that the turbo torch (acetylene only) torches are different 
than O/A torches.  You can't just turn off the oxygen.

I have tried the two fisted Mapp gas method
Well, I had acetylene in my right hand.

but I need about two more
hands for flux and solder. 
And I use the method of fluxing (with black for boilers), laying on 
snippets (or rings) of silver solder, and heating until the solder flows 
into the heat (joint).  You don't need to "scratch".  In my experience, 
if you've reached the "scratch" point, the process has failed.

royce in SB

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[steve boylan]

Robb wrote:

> I can explain volts / amps.
> Volts = how fast the river is flowing
> Amps = how wide it is

But ... but ... isn't volts the analogue of head, and amps the analogue of
flow rate?  (volume per unit time?)

I'm tempted to delve deeper (how fast <=> propogation speed, how wide <=>
diameter of conductor, area vs. ampacity), but I don't want to get in over
my head.

:-)

- - Steve

 

Re: Silversoldering Stainless Steel

[Mike Chaney]

> I can explain volts / amps.
> Volts = how fast the river is flowing
> Amps = how wide it is

I used to teach electronics to adults using the "water analogy" to explain the
relationship between voltage, current, resistance etc..  On one occasion, having
spent about twenty minutes going through my spiel, a voice from the back (why is
it always the back?) asked, "I understand the electricity bit, but what's all
this stuff about water?"

I've given up teaching now - steam engines don't ask questions.

Mike

p.s.  the explanation at the top of the page is incorrect.