Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Lead at all before giving it to some guy coming out of nowhere (which I completely understand). 4. Melinda was too kind when she mentioned I was a 'Stripes expert'. I am far from it. I installed Stripes when it was version 1.4.2 and have basically leveraged the magical ActionBean, some @CustomValidation methods, and a couple basic extensions. That's it. As I have been 'watching from the sidelines', I know there are far more knowledgable people in the community than I. Not just on Stripes, but on a lot of other Java EE-related topics as well. I wouldn't even consider attempting to provide leadership to a project I don't own (i.e. Stripes) if I wasn't going to be working with highly talented people who knew more than I did. What does Stripes need from a leader? Evan, Remi, and Freddy all have mentioned specific roles and responsibilities that need to be addressed. Who is going to perform all those tasks? I still agree with Brandon, someone who has been on the *inside* rather than the *outside* should step up. As for my part, because I am coming at this from a user point of view (plus my experience working as a consultant for a Professional Services group): - Serve the needs of the client first (in this case current and future Stripes users) - However, the client is not always right and their expectations need to be managed accordingly - For those of you familiar with the Time-Cost-Quality triangle (http://bit.ly/aOklOy), the old saying goes there are three choices and you can only pick two. Open source maximizes cost (as in zero) so it comes down to Time or Quality. I am much in the 'get it done right' over the 'get it done right now' camp so for me Quality trumps Time. I perceive the Stripes community holds that same philosophy. - Initially I would do a lot of listening in order to learn how to provide the best possible service to the community. Over time, though, I would gain an understanding of the 'big picture' along with a deeper knowledge of Stripes and govern accordingly. This sometimes means making decisions that are loved by some, loathed by others, and put some on the fence. That's just part of being a leader, making decisions that are not 'universally accepted' or have 'gained consensus'. A leader cannot make everybody happy all the time. - At the same time, if someone doesn't understand why I made a certain decision and asks about it, I will always be more than happy to explain what factors went into making the decision. - Decisions are based upon input, and sometimes decisions are made with incomplete, incorrect, or out-of-date information. If I ever make a decision and you feel it was the wrong one, step up and voice your concern. We can discuss it and if I'm in the wrong I will be the first to admit it and adjust accordingly. Anyway, for someone who is not a natural salesman or politician, that's about the best I can do at this juncture. Ed Edward Smith Senior Software Developer 214-272-5225 (direct) esm...@peopleanswers.commailto:esm...@peopleanswers.com PeopleAnswers(r) Better Insight. Better People. Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.comhttp://blog.peopleanswers.com/ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This email (including any attachments) is confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete this message in its entirety. Thank you for your cooperation. From: Ben Gunter [mailto:gunter...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 10:07 AM To: Stripes Users List Subject: Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX) Ed, it seems you have put a some people off and you have the support of some others. I'm on the fence at the moment. My main concern is that a few of the things you've said seem a little bit evasive. You declined to summarize your qualifications as project lead. You mentioned some plans you have for Stripes but again declined to disclose those. That seems especially odd since any contributions you make will be public anyway. And then when asked to elaborate on how you might manage the project you again declined, citing the probability that further comment from you would create confusion. Now, maybe I've misunderstood. Maybe when you said you had your own plans for Stripes, you meant you are planning to *use* Stripes in a project and you can't disclose the nature of that project. Maybe when you didn't speak of your qualifications, it was out of humility. And on the last point, maybe that was an attempt to keep from sinking further into the quicksand. What I like is that you stepped forward. I like that you have used Stripes for years and watched it evolve. I like that you got a +1 from Melinda, who has been active
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
this'. With that not being the case, I am *still* hoping someone who meets the qualifications and follows Brandon's advice steps up. It is safe to say that I would be the *last* resort, and I sense many would prefer there be no Project Lead at all before giving it to some guy coming out of nowhere (which I completely understand). 4. Melinda was too kind when she mentioned I was a 'Stripes expert'. I am far from it. I installed Stripes when it was version 1.4.2 and have basically leveraged the magical ActionBean, some @CustomValidation methods, and a couple basic extensions. That's it. As I have been 'watching from the sidelines', I know there are far more knowledgable people in the community than I. Not just on Stripes, but on a lot of other Java EE-related topics as well. I wouldn't even consider attempting to provide leadership to a project I don't own (i.e. Stripes) if I wasn't going to be working with highly talented people who knew more than I did. What does Stripes need from a leader? Evan, Remi, and Freddy all have mentioned specific roles and responsibilities that need to be addressed. Who is going to perform all those tasks? I still agree with Brandon, someone who has been on the *inside* rather than the *outside* should step up. As for my part, because I am coming at this from a user point of view (plus my experience working as a consultant for a Professional Services group): - Serve the needs of the client first (in this case current and future Stripes users) - However, the client is not always right and their expectations need to be managed accordingly - For those of you familiar with the Time-Cost-Quality triangle (http://bit.ly/aOklOy), the old saying goes there are three choices and you can only pick two. Open source maximizes cost (as in zero) so it comes down to Time or Quality. I am much in the 'get it done right' over the 'get it done right now' camp so for me Quality trumps Time. I perceive the Stripes community holds that same philosophy. - Initially I would do a lot of listening in order to learn how to provide the best possible service to the community. Over time, though, I would gain an understanding of the 'big picture' along with a deeper knowledge of Stripes and govern accordingly. This sometimes means making decisions that are loved by some, loathed by others, and put some on the fence. That's just part of being a leader, making decisions that are not 'universally accepted' or have 'gained consensus'. A leader cannot make everybody happy all the time. - At the same time, if someone doesn't understand why I made a certain decision and asks about it, I will always be more than happy to explain what factors went into making the decision. - Decisions are based upon input, and sometimes decisions are made with incomplete, incorrect, or out-of-date information. If I ever make a decision and you feel it was the wrong one, step up and voice your concern. We can discuss it and if I'm in the wrong I will be the first to admit it and adjust accordingly. Anyway, for someone who is not a natural salesman or politician, that's about the best I can do at this juncture. Ed Edward Smith Senior Software Developer 214-272-5225 (direct) esm...@peopleanswers.com PeopleAnswers® Better Insight. Better People. Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This email (including any attachments) is confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete this message in its entirety. Thank you for your cooperation. From: Ben Gunter [mailto:gunter...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 10:07 AM To: Stripes Users List Subject: Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX) Ed, it seems you have put a some people off and you have the support of some others. I'm on the fence at the moment. My main concern is that a few of the things you've said seem a little bit evasive. You declined to summarize your qualifications as project lead. You mentioned some plans you have for Stripes but again declined to disclose those. That seems especially odd since any contributions you make will be public anyway. And then when asked to elaborate on how you might manage the project you again declined, citing the probability that further comment from you would create confusion. Now, maybe I've misunderstood. Maybe when you said you had your own plans for Stripes, you meant you are planning to *use* Stripes in a project and you can't disclose the nature of that project. Maybe when you didn't speak of your qualifications
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
. The effort is commended, however taking the leadership role and dividing it up piecemeal just won't work. Who is the Stripes community supposed to go to when they have an issue, an idea or suggestion, or even want to contribute? And who is responsible for taking all of that community input and energy and make something happen? Right now I can't tell you who because I have no idea. 3. By 'throwing my hat into the ring' I just wanted to start a discussion on the future leadership of Stripes, not a Civil War or Revolution. I was hoping, Ben, you would come back and say 'Nah, man. I still got this'. With that not being the case, I am *still* hoping someone who meets the qualifications and follows Brandon's advice steps up. It is safe to say that I would be the *last* resort, and I sense many would prefer there be no Project Lead at all before giving it to some guy coming out of nowhere (which I completely understand). 4. Melinda was too kind when she mentioned I was a 'Stripes expert'. I am far from it. I installed Stripes when it was version 1.4.2 and have basically leveraged the magical ActionBean, some @CustomValidation methods, and a couple basic extensions. That's it. As I have been 'watching from the sidelines', I know there are far more knowledgable people in the community than I. Not just on Stripes, but on a lot of other Java EE-related topics as well. I wouldn't even consider attempting to provide leadership to a project I don't own (i.e. Stripes) if I wasn't going to be working with highly talented people who knew more than I did. What does Stripes need from a leader? Evan, Remi, and Freddy all have mentioned specific roles and responsibilities that need to be addressed. Who is going to perform all those tasks? I still agree with Brandon, someone who has been on the *inside* rather than the *outside* should step up. As for my part, because I am coming at this from a user point of view (plus my experience working as a consultant for a Professional Services group): - Serve the needs of the client first (in this case current and future Stripes users) - However, the client is not always right and their expectations need to be managed accordingly - For those of you familiar with the Time-Cost-Quality triangle ( http://bit.ly/aOklOy), the old saying goes there are three choices and you can only pick two. Open source maximizes cost (as in zero) so it comes down to Time or Quality. I am much in the 'get it done right' over the 'get it done right now' camp so for me Quality trumps Time. I perceive the Stripes community holds that same philosophy. - Initially I would do a lot of listening in order to learn how to provide the best possible service to the community. Over time, though, I would gain an understanding of the 'big picture' along with a deeper knowledge of Stripes and govern accordingly. This sometimes means making decisions that are loved by some, loathed by others, and put some on the fence. That's just part of being a leader, making decisions that are not 'universally accepted' or have 'gained consensus'. A leader cannot make everybody happy all the time. - At the same time, if someone doesn't understand why I made a certain decision and asks about it, I will always be more than happy to explain what factors went into making the decision. - Decisions are based upon input, and sometimes decisions are made with incomplete, incorrect, or out-of-date information. If I ever make a decision and you feel it was the wrong one, step up and voice your concern. We can discuss it and if I'm in the wrong I will be the first to admit it and adjust accordingly. Anyway, for someone who is not a natural salesman or politician, that's about the best I can do at this juncture. Ed *Edward Smith* *Senior Software Developer* *214-272-5225 (direct)* *esm...@peopleanswers.com*** *PeopleAnswers**®** ** ** *Better Insight. Better People.** *Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.com* CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This email (including any attachments) is confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete this message in its entirety. Thank you for your cooperation. *From:* Ben Gunter [mailto:gunter...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Thursday, September 23, 2010 10:07 AM *To:* Stripes Users List *Subject:* Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX) Ed, it seems you have put a some people off and you have the support of some others. I'm on the fence at the moment. My main concern is that a few of the things you've said seem a little bit evasive. You declined to summarize your qualifications as project lead. You mentioned some plans
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Ed, it seems you have put a some people off and you have the support of some others. I'm on the fence at the moment. My main concern is that a few of the things you've said seem a little bit evasive. You declined to summarize your qualifications as project lead. You mentioned some plans you have for Stripes but again declined to disclose those. That seems especially odd since any contributions you make will be public anyway. And then when asked to elaborate on how you might manage the project you again declined, citing the probability that further comment from you would create confusion. Now, maybe I've misunderstood. Maybe when you said you had your own plans for Stripes, you meant you are planning to *use* Stripes in a project and you can't disclose the nature of that project. Maybe when you didn't speak of your qualifications, it was out of humility. And on the last point, maybe that was an attempt to keep from sinking further into the quicksand. What I like is that you stepped forward. I like that you have used Stripes for years and watched it evolve. I like that you got a +1 from Melinda, who has been active on the mailing list for years. On the negative side, you don't seem to have been very active on the mailing list or IRC. Even though you have been watching the activity for a long time, to the rest of us you just sort of came out of nowhere to claim a leadership role. I admit that I no longer have the time or energy to provide proper leadership on this project. I think we do need someone who can coordinate things. What people are asking of you is just a little sales pitch. We want to know what you think the project needs and what you plan to do to provide that. I hope you'll indulge us. -Ben On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 4:07 PM, Freddy Daoud xf2...@fastmail.fm wrote: Just my 2c, I hope this doesn't make things worse in terms of misunderstandings. I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes needs most is leadership, plain and simple. Personally, I was thrilled when I read Ed's comment. I did not read any dictatorship into it. All I read was that someone was willing to step up to the plate, stating it clearly, no two ways about it. I respect that very much. I agree that Stripes needs leadership. Again, I don't see this as a synonym of dictatorship, nor an opposite to consensus. What I do see in this is someone, Ed, who has the skill and the will to assume the role of Stripes lead. This does not mean to rule out other participants. But, IMHO, we do *need* someone that decides and makes things happen. Sure, it's all teamwork, but at the end of the day, when someone submits a patch, asks when the next release will be, asks if a feature belongs in the framework, and so on, there has to be *someone* who is *committed* to addressing and responding. It's not a one-man show. But the problem with a team of contributors without someone who is the lead, is that for some issues, everyone looks at everyone else and no one responds. This is why I applaud Ed's statement that he is willing to take on this responsibility for Stripes. First on the list, I think, is to plan out the release of Stripes 1.5.x and Stripes 1.6, and work from there. Again, just my 2c. I hope I didn't create more than resolve conflict, and please also know that I don't mean to speak for you, Ed. I'm just expressing what I read into it, and I hope it rings true with your intentions. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that you would become a dictator, nor that you wouldn't encourage teamwork and healthy discussions about Stripes' future. Personally, I say thanks, Ed. You have my vote. Cheers, Freddy -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users -- Nokia and ATT present the 2010 Calling All Innovators-North America contest Create new apps games for the Nokia N8 for consumers in U.S. and Canada $10 million total in prizes - $4M cash, 500 devices, nearly $6M in marketing Develop with Nokia Qt SDK, Web Runtime, or Java and Publish to Ovi Store http://p.sf.net/sfu/nokia-dev2dev___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Ben, Good point, I would love to make a real contribution to Stripes (never knew how that could be done!). My background: As a web developer on a social web application I'm a Stripes user. So far I did not dig too much in the Stripes sources although I did build some Stripes extensions. My basic need is a more advanced URL mapping scheme (to map any URL schema), so that's an area I really like to invest. My contribution could be review, correct and improve the Javadoc of Stripes. Also I could write Unit tests to cover all sources. As a promotional Stripes effort I also try to answer and vote up Stripes question @ Stackoverflow.com. Kind regards, Karen From: Ben Gunter [mailto:gunter...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 21 September, 2010 16:16 To: Stripes Users List Subject: Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX) Well, it looks like life picked a bad time to get busy for me. I just now got around to catching up on this thread. I'm sure my silence caused some concern. Sorry about that. I completely agree with the sentiment that we need eager new developers to contribute to the project. Those who know me know that I'm not about politics or control or ego. I would love to bring some eager new developers in to help rejuvenate the project. There was a time a few years ago when I had that same enthusiasm for developing Stripes. I answered lots of questions on the mailing list with tons of code samples. I started the Stripes Extras project to add some security to the binding stage so developers wouldn't have to worry about evil stuff getting poked into their ActionBeans. I had bigger plans for Stripes Extras, but Tim took notice of my activity and invited me to contribute directly to the Stripes core. I accepted, and the features of Stripes Extras were merged in for Stripes 1.5. Freddy and Aaron and a few others joined in on the 1.5 effort, and we finally released what I think is a pretty nice product: binding security, clean URLs, DynamicMappingFilter, minimal configuration, improved type conversion and formatting. Not too shabby. What we were then was a great group of developers with a clear vision for what we wanted Stripes to be and a singular focus on making it happen. What we are now is a great group of developers who have a framework with which we're quite satisfied. I remember clearly that when Tim brought me in he said -- I think it was on IRC -- that he was happy with Stripes as it was. That is where I stand now. Like Tim was then, I am happy to hand over the reins to someone who can drive the project forward, while offering any help I can along the way. Over the last few years, I have heard time and time again the chorus of we should do this or we should do that. What I have learned, though, is that more often than not it really means you should do this or you should do that. I have poured hours and hours into finding and fixing bugs that do not affect me personally. Generally, it's very difficult to get cooperation from people in testing patches to ensure the bug they've reported is fixed. Complaints about how something works or does not work are rarely accompanied by a solution to the perceived problem. My point is that talk is cheap. Who out there is really willing to dig in and learn the Stripes code and dedicate a good chunk of time on a regular basis to make it better? Who is willing to design a new web site? Who is willing to review and correct and improve the documentation? Who is willing create and maintain a Stripes-centric blog with regular articles? If you are willing and able *right now* to start making a real contribution to the project, then respond to this email and commit to it. Let us know your name, your history with Stripes, how you want to contribute, and any other information that you think is relevant. If you can't contribute now but hope to be able to in the future, then please wait until that time comes to speak up. What I want is to know who we have in this group who can help breathe new life into Stripes starting today. Let's hear it. -Ben On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Jeppe Cramon je...@cramon.dk wrote: Hi guys I've been following this resurrection thread for a while and even though I contributed some core parts to Stripes in the early days I haven't really had the need for something like Stripes in a long time (for instance it lacks proper REST and Comet style support). IMO Stripes has faded because it has been too difficult to participate, add patches and features. I like that the core of Stripes is kept tight, with focus on extensibility and what's the core things for an Action based MVC framework. The low learning curve and the easy extensibility was what attracted me to Stripes in the first place, but the lack of progress new releases is hurting Stripes. Since this thread has appeared and have started a good discussion, I think it's important to reach a consensus on where to take Stripes. IMO
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Well, it looks like life picked a bad time to get busy for me. I just now got around to catching up on this thread. I'm sure my silence caused some concern. Sorry about that. I completely agree with the sentiment that we need eager new developers to contribute to the project. Those who know me know that I'm not about politics or control or ego. I would love to bring some eager new developers in to help rejuvenate the project. There was a time a few years ago when I had that same enthusiasm for developing Stripes. I answered lots of questions on the mailing list with tons of code samples. I started the Stripes Extras project to add some security to the binding stage so developers wouldn't have to worry about evil stuff getting poked into their ActionBeans. I had bigger plans for Stripes Extras, but Tim took notice of my activity and invited me to contribute directly to the Stripes core. I accepted, and the features of Stripes Extras were merged in for Stripes 1.5. Freddy and Aaron and a few others joined in on the 1.5 effort, and we finally released what I think is a pretty nice product: binding security, clean URLs, DynamicMappingFilter, minimal configuration, improved type conversion and formatting. Not too shabby. What we were then was a great group of developers with a clear vision for what we wanted Stripes to be and a singular focus on making it happen. What we are now is a great group of developers who have a framework with which we're quite satisfied. I remember clearly that when Tim brought me in he said -- I think it was on IRC -- that he was happy with Stripes as it was. That is where I stand now. Like Tim was then, I am happy to hand over the reins to someone who can drive the project forward, while offering any help I can along the way. Over the last few years, I have heard time and time again the chorus of we should do this or we should do that. What I have learned, though, is that more often than not it really means you should do this or you should do that. I have poured hours and hours into finding and fixing bugs that do not affect me personally. Generally, it's very difficult to get cooperation from people in testing patches to ensure the bug they've reported is fixed. Complaints about how something works or does not work are rarely accompanied by a solution to the perceived problem. My point is that talk is cheap. Who out there is really willing to dig in and learn the Stripes code and dedicate a good chunk of time on a regular basis to make it better? Who is willing to design a new web site? Who is willing to review and correct and improve the documentation? Who is willing create and maintain a Stripes-centric blog with regular articles? If you are willing and able *right now* to start making a real contribution to the project, then respond to this email and commit to it. Let us know your name, your history with Stripes, how you want to contribute, and any other information that you think is relevant. If you can't contribute now but hope to be able to in the future, then please wait until that time comes to speak up. What I want is to know who we have in this group who can help breathe new life into Stripes starting today. Let's hear it. -Ben On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Jeppe Cramon je...@cramon.dk wrote: Hi guys I've been following this resurrection thread for a while and even though I contributed some core parts to Stripes in the early days I haven't really had the need for something like Stripes in a long time (for instance it lacks proper REST and Comet style support). IMO Stripes has faded because it has been too difficult to participate, add patches and features. I like that the core of Stripes is kept tight, with focus on extensibility and what's the core things for an Action based MVC framework. The low learning curve and the easy extensibility was what attracted me to Stripes in the first place, but the lack of progress new releases is hurting Stripes. Since this thread has appeared and have started a good discussion, I think it's important to reach a consensus on where to take Stripes. IMO if this thread dies out with any clear forward action, then Stripes is going to whither. I agree with Rick, forking would be a good way to move forward. My suggestion is to put Stripes on GitHub and allow people for Fork it like crazy - see what the community can come up with and harvest the best ideas by pulling from the best contributers. But IMO it's important that someone like Ben, Aaron or Freddy be the one(s) maintaining the official Git Master and decide what gets pulled into the official Stripes release. Perhaps someone will come by and create a fork that blows everyone away - let's see what could happen ;) /Jeppe On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 20:27:21 +0200, Rick Grashel rgras...@gmail.com wrote: Evan, Regarding your comment about forking the code being a last resort, I'm not too sure about that. In fact, I think forks are absolutely
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Hi folks I've been following this thread not really knwoing how to responde, Ben, you took the words out of my mouth :) I'm also perfeclty happy with Stripes as is. Sure more developers would be agood thing. But forking like crazy etc... not sure this will help. Nothing prevents anyone to experiment with the codebase, and send their contribs. I have no doubts they will be accepted if they are worth it, and inline with the Stripes spirit. Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Ben Gunter gunter...@gmail.com Well, it looks like life picked a bad time to get busy for me. I just now got around to catching up on this thread. I'm sure my silence caused some concern. Sorry about that. I completely agree with the sentiment that we need eager new developers to contribute to the project. Those who know me know that I'm not about politics or control or ego. I would love to bring some eager new developers in to help rejuvenate the project. There was a time a few years ago when I had that same enthusiasm for developing Stripes. I answered lots of questions on the mailing list with tons of code samples. I started the Stripes Extras project to add some security to the binding stage so developers wouldn't have to worry about evil stuff getting poked into their ActionBeans. I had bigger plans for Stripes Extras, but Tim took notice of my activity and invited me to contribute directly to the Stripes core. I accepted, and the features of Stripes Extras were merged in for Stripes 1.5. Freddy and Aaron and a few others joined in on the 1.5 effort, and we finally released what I think is a pretty nice product: binding security, clean URLs, DynamicMappingFilter, minimal configuration, improved type conversion and formatting. Not too shabby. What we were then was a great group of developers with a clear vision for what we wanted Stripes to be and a singular focus on making it happen. What we are now is a great group of developers who have a framework with which we're quite satisfied. I remember clearly that when Tim brought me in he said -- I think it was on IRC -- that he was happy with Stripes as it was. That is where I stand now. Like Tim was then, I am happy to hand over the reins to someone who can drive the project forward, while offering any help I can along the way. Over the last few years, I have heard time and time again the chorus of we should do this or we should do that. What I have learned, though, is that more often than not it really means you should do this or you should do that. I have poured hours and hours into finding and fixing bugs that do not affect me personally. Generally, it's very difficult to get cooperation from people in testing patches to ensure the bug they've reported is fixed. Complaints about how something works or does not work are rarely accompanied by a solution to the perceived problem. My point is that talk is cheap. Who out there is really willing to dig in and learn the Stripes code and dedicate a good chunk of time on a regular basis to make it better? Who is willing to design a new web site? Who is willing to review and correct and improve the documentation? Who is willing create and maintain a Stripes-centric blog with regular articles? If you are willing and able *right now* to start making a real contribution to the project, then respond to this email and commit to it. Let us know your name, your history with Stripes, how you want to contribute, and any other information that you think is relevant. If you can't contribute now but hope to be able to in the future, then please wait until that time comes to speak up. What I want is to know who we have in this group who can help breathe new life into Stripes starting today. Let's hear it. -Ben On Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Jeppe Cramon je...@cramon.dk wrote: Hi guys I've been following this resurrection thread for a while and even though I contributed some core parts to Stripes in the early days I haven't really had the need for something like Stripes in a long time (for instance it lacks proper REST and Comet style support). IMO Stripes has faded because it has been too difficult to participate, add patches and features. I like that the core of Stripes is kept tight, with focus on extensibility and what's the core things for an Action based MVC framework. The low learning curve and the easy extensibility was what attracted me to Stripes in the first place, but the lack of progress new releases is hurting Stripes. Since this thread has appeared and have started a good discussion, I think it's important to reach a consensus on where to take Stripes. IMO if this thread dies out with any clear forward action, then Stripes is going to whither. I agree with Rick, forking would be a good way to move forward. My suggestion is to put Stripes on GitHub and allow people for Fork it like crazy - see what the community can come up with and harvest the best ideas by
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
I can offer some of my time in testing and fixing bugs and/or implementing new stuff - especially if they are on Glassfish. This will come for me as a small overhead because I use Stripes on a daily basis in my commercial projects and have been browsing its source code a few times already to fix some little annoyances I encountered. I can also review some of incoming patches and changes before they get merged into the trunk, I've quite a bit of experience in JavaEE and overall software development, even though I'm sure there are people way better than I am. From time to time I should be able to write blog posts about using Stripes, on my site or on Stripe's Blog. Best regards, Grzegorz -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Excellent. I'll be keeping a running log of volunteers, and when we've heard from everybody I'll post a summary to the list and start looking at getting people the access they need. 2010/9/21 Grzegorz Krugły g...@karko.net I can offer some of my time in testing and fixing bugs and/or implementing new stuff - especially if they are on Glassfish. This will come for me as a small overhead because I use Stripes on a daily basis in my commercial projects and have been browsing its source code a few times already to fix some little annoyances I encountered. I can also review some of incoming patches and changes before they get merged into the trunk, I've quite a bit of experience in JavaEE and overall software development, even though I'm sure there are people way better than I am. From time to time I should be able to write blog posts about using Stripes, on my site or on Stripe's Blog. Best regards, Grzegorz -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Hi RemiLong time :)IMO forking is a good thing, IF it's done in Git style where it easy to keep up with those who have forked the master and push/pull between those interested :)It makes it so much easier to experiment and do patches and leave them for everyone to see, including the Stripes comitter, if it's hosted in you own GitHub repository.Having to fetch Strips sourcecode from SVN, create a patch file and send it in and hope that someone will accept it, is just too 2000 ;)/JeppeOn Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:25:19 +0200, VANKEISBELCK Remi r...@rvkb.com wrote:Hi folksI've been following this thread not really knwoing how to responde, Ben, you took the words out of my mouth :)I'm also perfeclty happy with Stripes as is. Sure more developers would be agood thing. But forking like crazy etc... not sure this will help. Nothing prevents anyone to experiment with the codebase, and send their contribs. I have no doubts they will be accepted if they are worth it, and inline with the Stripes spirit. CheersRemi2010/9/21 Ben Gunter gunter...@gmail.com Well, it looks like life picked a bad time to get busy for me. I just now got around to catching up on this thread. I'm sure my silence caused some concern. Sorry about that.I completely agree with the sentiment that we need eager new developers to contribute to the project. Those who know me know that I'm not about politics or control or ego. I would love to bring some eager new developers in to help rejuvenate the project. There was a time a few years ago when I had that same enthusiasm for developing Stripes. I answered lots of questions on the mailing list with tons of code samples. I started the Stripes Extras project to add some security to the binding stage so developers wouldn't have to worry about evil stuff getting poked into their ActionBeans. I had bigger plans for Stripes Extras, but Tim took notice of my activity and invited me to contribute directly to the Stripes core. I accepted, and the features of Stripes Extras were merged in for Stripes 1.5. Freddy and Aaron and a few others joined in on the 1.5 effort, and we finally released what I think is a pretty nice product: binding security, clean URLs, DynamicMappingFilter, minimal configuration, improved type conversion and formatting. Not too shabby. What we were then was a great group of developers with a clear vision for what we wanted Stripes to be and a singular focus on making it happen. What we are now is a great group of developers who have a framework with which we're quite satisfied. I remember clearly that when Tim brought me in he said -- I think it was on IRC -- that he was happy with Stripes as it was. That is where I stand now. Like Tim was then, I am happy to hand over the reins to someone who can drive the project forward, while offering any help I can along the way. Over the last few years, I have heard time and time again the chorus of "we should do this" or "we should do that." What I have learned, though, is that more often than not it really means "you should do this" or "you should do that." I have poured hours and hours into finding and fixing bugs that do not affect me personally. Generally, it's very difficult to get cooperation from people in testing patches to ensure the bug they've reported is fixed. Complaints about how something works or does not work are rarely accompanied by a solution to the perceived problem. My point is that talk is cheap. Who out there is really willing to dig in and learn the Stripes code and dedicate a good chunk of time on a regular basis to make it better? Who is willing to design a new web site? Who is willing to review and correct and improve the documentation? Who is willing create and maintain a Stripes-centric blog with regular articles? If you are willing and able *right now* to start making a real contribution to the project, then respond to this email and commit to it. Let us know your name, your history with Stripes, how you want to contribute, and any other information that you think is relevant. If you can't contribute now but hope to be able to in the future, then please wait until that time comes to speak up. What I want is to know who we have in this group who can help breathe new life into Stripes starting today. Let's hear it. -BenOn Sun, Sep 19, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Jeppe Cramon je...@cramon.dk wrote: Hi guysI've been following this resurrection thread for a while and even though I contributed some core parts to Stripes in the early days I haven't really had the need for something like Stripes in a long time (for instance it lacks proper REST and Comet style support). IMO Stripes has faded because it has been too difficult to participate, add patches and features.I like that the core of Stripes is kept tight, with focus on extensibility and what's the core things for an Action based MVC framework. The low learning curve and the easy extensibility was what attracted me to Stripes in the first place, but the lack
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Ben, good to hear from you! As I mentioned before my concern mainly is that there's a well understood process for participating and contributing. I appreciate your points also about we should versus you should. Getting a list of available people, skills, and time is a good first step toward combating that. Here's a page on the new website group where a few people have volunteered already: http://groups.google.com/group/stripeswebsite/web/available-resources If I may make a suggestion, a good second step would be to list all the activities that need to happen. This list can be published on the site to show the open opportunities to jump in an contribute. The community can update this list as needed. We can then assign available people to each so that we know who to talk with when we have a question about any particular activity. And people can de-assign themselves or find a replacement when they can no longer fill the role. Here's the activities I've heard so far: * Triaging incoming issues * Reviewing patches maintaining Stripes focus * Fixing identified issues * Blogging about stripes * Publishing builds to Maven Central * Designing a new website (visual interaction design) * Building a new website (programming and deployment) * Updating documentation on website * Organizing extensions projects * Maintaining this activity list and associated assignments What have I missed? Oh, and here's what I can help with: I definitely would be on the list of people to fix some issues. I can write a blog post or two about my usage of Stripes. I can facilitate the maintenance the activities list and associated assignments. And I'm interested in discussing how to organize the extensions projects too. Evan On Sep 21, 2010, at 8:16 AM, Ben Gunter wrote: Well, it looks like life picked a bad time to get busy for me. I just now got around to catching up on this thread. I'm sure my silence caused some concern. Sorry about that. I completely agree with the sentiment that we need eager new developers to contribute to the project. Those who know me know that I'm not about politics or control or ego. I would love to bring some eager new developers in to help rejuvenate the project. There was a time a few years ago when I had that same enthusiasm for developing Stripes. I answered lots of questions on the mailing list with tons of code samples. I started the Stripes Extras project to add some security to the binding stage so developers wouldn't have to worry about evil stuff getting poked into their ActionBeans. I had bigger plans for Stripes Extras, but Tim took notice of my activity and invited me to contribute directly to the Stripes core. I accepted, and the features of Stripes Extras were merged in for Stripes 1.5. Freddy and Aaron and a few others joined in on the 1.5 effort, and we finally released what I think is a pretty nice product: binding security, clean URLs, DynamicMappingFilter, minimal configuration, improved type conversion and formatting. Not too shabby. What we were then was a great group of developers with a clear vision for what we wanted Stripes to be and a singular focus on making it happen. What we are now is a great group of developers who have a framework with which we're quite satisfied. I remember clearly that when Tim brought me in he said -- I think it was on IRC -- that he was happy with Stripes as it was. That is where I stand now. Like Tim was then, I am happy to hand over the reins to someone who can drive the project forward, while offering any help I can along the way. Over the last few years, I have heard time and time again the chorus of we should do this or we should do that. What I have learned, though, is that more often than not it really means you should do this or you should do that. I have poured hours and hours into finding and fixing bugs that do not affect me personally. Generally, it's very difficult to get cooperation from people in testing patches to ensure the bug they've reported is fixed. Complaints about how something works or does not work are rarely accompanied by a solution to the perceived problem. My point is that talk is cheap. Who out there is really willing to dig in and learn the Stripes code and dedicate a good chunk of time on a regular basis to make it better? Who is willing to design a new web site? Who is willing to review and correct and improve the documentation? Who is willing create and maintain a Stripes-centric blog with regular articles? If you are willing and able *right now* to start making a real contribution to the project, then respond to this email and commit to it. Let us know your name, your history with Stripes, how you want to contribute, and any other information that you think is relevant. If you can't contribute now but hope to be able to in the future, then please wait until that time comes to speak up. What I
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Yeah, been busy ! Well, I guess that (even at my young age !), I'm kinda old fashioned... :P Actually I wasn't speaking about the tool. What I meant is that whetever the hosting platform, you can always contribute in various ways. No need to have all privileges for that, it's only a matter of goodwill. We've had countless contribs in the past, using just SVN, patches, plus the good old mailing list. It's our dedication that paid off. Not the tools we used. For anyone interested in contributing : build that damn website, send patches for bug fixes, propose your ideas on the ML, advertise to your friends/colleagues, post in blogs... this is what will keep Stripes alive (when Ben will retire on a beach in Tahiti... :P). Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Jeppe Cramon je...@cramon.dk Hi Remi Long time :) IMO forking is a good thing, IF it's done in Git style where it easy to keep up with those who have forked the master and push/pull between those interested :) It makes it so much easier to experiment and do patches and leave them for everyone to see, including the Stripes comitter, if it's hosted in you own GitHub repository. Having to fetch Strips sourcecode from SVN, create a patch file and send it in and hope that someone will accept it, is just too 2000 ;) /Jeppe On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:25:19 +0200, VANKEISBELCK Remi r...@rvkb.com wrote: Hi folks I've been following this thread not really knwoing how to responde, Ben, you took the words out of my mouth :) I'm also perfeclty happy with Stripes as is. Sure more developers would be agood thing. But forking like crazy etc... not sure this will help. Nothing prevents anyone to experiment with the codebase, and send their contribs. I have no doubts they will be accepted if they are worth it, and inline with the Stripes spirit. Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Ben Gunter gunter...@gmail.com Well, it looks like life picked a bad time to get busy for me. I just now got around to catching up on this thread. I'm sure my silence caused some concern. Sorry about that. I completely agree with the sentiment that we need eager new developers to contribute to the project. Those who know me know that I'm not about politics or control or ego. I would love to bring some eager new developers in to help rejuvenate the project. There was a time a few years ago when I had that same enthusiasm for developing Stripes. I answered lots of questions on the mailing list with tons of code samples. I started the Stripes Extras project to add some security to the binding stage so developers wouldn't have to worry about evil stuff getting poked into their ActionBeans. I had bigger plans for Stripes Extras, but Tim took notice of my activity and invited me to contribute directly to the Stripes core. I accepted, and the features of Stripes Extras were merged in for Stripes 1.5. Freddy and Aaron and a few others joined in on the 1.5 effort, and we finally released what I think is a pretty nice product: binding security, clean URLs, DynamicMappingFilter, minimal configuration, improved type conversion and formatting. Not too shabby. What we were then was a great group of developers with a clear vision for what we wanted Stripes to be and a singular focus on making it happen. What we are now is a great group of developers who have a framework with which we're quite satisfied. I remember clearly that when Tim brought me in he said -- I think it was on IRC -- that he was happy with Stripes as it was. That is where I stand now. Like Tim was then, I am happy to hand over the reins to someone who can drive the project forward, while offering any help I can along the way. Over the last few years, I have heard time and time again the chorus of we should do this or we should do that. What I have learned, though, is that more often than not it really means you should do this or you should do that. I have poured hours and hours into finding and fixing bugs that do not affect me personally. Generally, it's very difficult to get cooperation from people in testing patches to ensure the bug they've reported is fixed. Complaints about how something works or does not work are rarely accompanied by a solution to the perceived problem. My point is that talk is cheap. Who out there is really willing to dig in and learn the Stripes code and dedicate a good chunk of time on a regular basis to make it better? Who is willing to design a new web site? Who is willing to review and correct and improve the documentation? Who is willing create and maintain a Stripes-centric blog with regular articles? If you are willing and able *right now* to start making a real contribution to the project, then respond to this email and commit to it. Let us know your name, your history with Stripes, how you want to contribute, and any other information that you think is relevant. If you can't contribute now but hope to be able to in the future, then please wait
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Yeah the dedication is the necessary ingredient for sure! Once we've got that, tools can help though :-) Personally, I'm a fan of Mercurial, for much of the same reason that Google Code is: http://googlecode.blogspot.com/2009/04/mercurial-support-for-project-hosting.html Evan On Sep 21, 2010, at 9:57 AM, VANKEISBELCK Remi wrote: Yeah, been busy ! Well, I guess that (even at my young age !), I'm kinda old fashioned... :P Actually I wasn't speaking about the tool. What I meant is that whetever the hosting platform, you can always contribute in various ways. No need to have all privileges for that, it's only a matter of goodwill. We've had countless contribs in the past, using just SVN, patches, plus the good old mailing list. It's our dedication that paid off. Not the tools we used. For anyone interested in contributing : build that damn website, send patches for bug fixes, propose your ideas on the ML, advertise to your friends/colleagues, post in blogs... this is what will keep Stripes alive (when Ben will retire on a beach in Tahiti... :P). Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Jeppe Cramon je...@cramon.dk Hi Remi Long time :) IMO forking is a good thing, IF it's done in Git style where it easy to keep up with those who have forked the master and push/pull between those interested :) It makes it so much easier to experiment and do patches and leave them for everyone to see, including the Stripes comitter, if it's hosted in you own GitHub repository. Having to fetch Strips sourcecode from SVN, create a patch file and send it in and hope that someone will accept it, is just too 2000 ;) /Jeppe On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:25:19 +0200, VANKEISBELCK Remi r...@rvkb.com wrote: Hi folks I've been following this thread not really knwoing how to responde, Ben, you took the words out of my mouth :) I'm also perfeclty happy with Stripes as is. Sure more developers would be agood thing. But forking like crazy etc... not sure this will help. Nothing prevents anyone to experiment with the codebase, and send their contribs. I have no doubts they will be accepted if they are worth it, and inline with the Stripes spirit. Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Ben Gunter gunter...@gmail.com Well, it looks like life picked a bad time to get busy for me. I just now got around to catching up on this thread. I'm sure my silence caused some concern. Sorry about that. I completely agree with the sentiment that we need eager new developers to contribute to the project. Those who know me know that I'm not about politics or control or ego. I would love to bring some eager new developers in to help rejuvenate the project. There was a time a few years ago when I had that same enthusiasm for developing Stripes. I answered lots of questions on the mailing list with tons of code samples. I started the Stripes Extras project to add some security to the binding stage so developers wouldn't have to worry about evil stuff getting poked into their ActionBeans. I had bigger plans for Stripes Extras, but Tim took notice of my activity and invited me to contribute directly to the Stripes core. I accepted, and the features of Stripes Extras were merged in for Stripes 1.5. Freddy and Aaron and a few others joined in on the 1.5 effort, and we finally released what I think is a pretty nice product: binding security, clean URLs, DynamicMappingFilter, minimal configuration, improved type conversion and formatting. Not too shabby. What we were then was a great group of developers with a clear vision for what we wanted Stripes to be and a singular focus on making it happen. What we are now is a great group of developers who have a framework with which we're quite satisfied. I remember clearly that when Tim brought me in he said -- I think it was on IRC -- that he was happy with Stripes as it was. That is where I stand now. Like Tim was then, I am happy to hand over the reins to someone who can drive the project forward, while offering any help I can along the way. Over the last few years, I have heard time and time again the chorus of we should do this or we should do that. What I have learned, though, is that more often than not it really means you should do this or you should do that. I have poured hours and hours into finding and fixing bugs that do not affect me personally. Generally, it's very difficult to get cooperation from people in testing patches to ensure the bug they've reported is fixed. Complaints about how something works or does not work are rarely accompanied by a solution to the perceived problem. My point is that talk is cheap. Who out there is really willing to dig in and learn the Stripes code and dedicate a good chunk of time on a regular basis to make it better? Who is willing to design a new web site? Who is willing to review and correct and improve the documentation? Who is willing
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Hi Ben and others I have recently become a Stripes user and have joined the users list. I must say that I am very impressed by the framework and the users mailing list. Seldom have I used a framework which is so intuitive to understand and use, and there is a lot of good answers on the list. At the moment I am working to introduce Stripes as the new framework in a very heavy webapplication with several hundred thousand of users. To do this I need to hook into an old CMS that handles the layout of the pages and create hooks to other parts of the old framework which contains functionality that we still have a need for, even though we use Stripes. Totally we are about 20-30 developers who will use Stripes once we are done. Until now, the ride with Stripes has been smooth and elegant and the need for extending Stripes has been fulfilled with ease and with a fealing of hahhaa, this is cool... :-) - whoouuw, it can also do that Just as promised in Freddys book :-) A little about myself will be that I have been working with J2EE/JEE since 2000 and I have created a lot of large systems with heavy database backends. I consider myself to be quite experienced, although I may not be able at cite all JEE specs while sleeping. I will be delighted to blog about my experience with integrating Stripes into a large legacy web application. I will also be glad to help chasing bugs in Stripes, and if I get the chance, help implementing features. With deep respect for the work that the community has done in developing Stripes... Thank you Søren 2010/9/21 Ben Gunter gunter...@gmail.com Excellent. I'll be keeping a running log of volunteers, and when we've heard from everybody I'll post a summary to the list and start looking at getting people the access they need. 2010/9/21 Grzegorz Krugły g...@karko.net I can offer some of my time in testing and fixing bugs and/or implementing new stuff - especially if they are on Glassfish. This will come for me as a small overhead because I use Stripes on a daily basis in my commercial projects and have been browsing its source code a few times already to fix some little annoyances I encountered. I can also review some of incoming patches and changes before they get merged into the trunk, I've quite a bit of experience in JavaEE and overall software development, even though I'm sure there are people way better than I am. From time to time I should be able to write blog posts about using Stripes, on my site or on Stripe's Blog. Best regards, Grzegorz -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
I must admit I'm confused as well... starts with a new website and ends up in a dictatorship ? This thread's really getting more and more interesting :P Until now we (stripes users) always have reached consensus. I think the whole core team and other usual suspects are legit to speak on any decision, because they have proven dedication over the years. Even like this, nobody never abused, people were always ok to discuss things and not impose anything to others by force. Until then, this system has had an excellent impact on the quality of the framework. Now why would Stripes suddenly need a single responsible person as THE project lead ? Don't get me wrong, again, all efforts are appreciated. But just to get things clear, what would you do exactly as THE project lead ? What's the void you're trying to fill ? And most of all, why do you think you need to be the only lead ? What's your problem in sharing this responsibility ? Ain't this kind of proposal at the opposite of the Open Source philosophy (groups of people sharing common interests and working together to get things done) ? Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Edward Smith esm...@peopleanswers.com Evan, I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes needs most is leadership, plain and simple. If you or anyone else has the capability to lead a project, then great. Go for it. Knock yourself out. It sounds like you have some leadership acumen so it wouldn't bother me a bit if *you* want to take the reigns. If not, then I'm offering my services free of charge to the Stripes community. All I'm interested in is that *somebody* do it. Period. This ad hoc crap just ain't gonna cut it. Ed *Edward Smith* *Senior Software Developer* *214-272-5225 (direct)* *esm...@peopleanswers.com** * *PeopleAnswers**®** ** ** *Better Insight. Better People. ** *Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.com* -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
I must admit I'm confused as well... starts with a new website and ends up in a dictatorship ? This thread's really getting more and more interesting :P +1 to that. Love the drama :) Any transfer in stewardship should probably be to a committer, or a regular submitter at the very least. Otherwise, just fork, and let the best team win. On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:28 PM, VANKEISBELCK Remi r...@rvkb.com wrote: I must admit I'm confused as well... starts with a new website and ends up in a dictatorship ? This thread's really getting more and more interesting :P Until now we (stripes users) always have reached consensus. I think the whole core team and other usual suspects are legit to speak on any decision, because they have proven dedication over the years. Even like this, nobody never abused, people were always ok to discuss things and not impose anything to others by force. Until then, this system has had an excellent impact on the quality of the framework. Now why would Stripes suddenly need a single responsible person as THE project lead ? Don't get me wrong, again, all efforts are appreciated. But just to get things clear, what would you do exactly as THE project lead ? What's the void you're trying to fill ? And most of all, why do you think you need to be the only lead ? What's your problem in sharing this responsibility ? Ain't this kind of proposal at the opposite of the Open Source philosophy (groups of people sharing common interests and working together to get things done) ? Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Edward Smith esm...@peopleanswers.com Evan, I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes needs most is leadership, plain and simple. If you or anyone else has the capability to lead a project, then great. Go for it. Knock yourself out. It sounds like you have some leadership acumen so it wouldn't bother me a bit if *you* want to take the reigns. If not, then I'm offering my services free of charge to the Stripes community. All I'm interested in is that *somebody* do it. Period. This ad hoc crap just ain't gonna cut it. Ed *Edward Smith* *Senior Software Developer* *214-272-5225 (direct)* *esm...@peopleanswers.com** * *PeopleAnswers**®** ** ** *Better Insight. Better People. ** *Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.com* -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Any transfer in stewardship should probably be to a committer, or a regular submitter at the very least +1 from me. Anything else I say on the matter will just confuse things even more. Edward Smith Senior Software Developer 214-272-5225 (direct) esm...@peopleanswers.commailto:esm...@peopleanswers.com PeopleAnswers® Better Insight. Better People. Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.comhttp://blog.peopleanswers.com/ CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This email (including any attachments) is confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete this message in its entirety. Thank you for your cooperation. From: Brandon Atkinson [mailto:brandon.n.atkin...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 1:54 PM To: r...@rvkb.com; Stripes Users List Subject: Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX) I must admit I'm confused as well... starts with a new website and ends up in a dictatorship ? This thread's really getting more and more interesting :P +1 to that. Love the drama :) Any transfer in stewardship should probably be to a committer, or a regular submitter at the very least. Otherwise, just fork, and let the best team win. On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:28 PM, VANKEISBELCK Remi r...@rvkb.commailto:r...@rvkb.com wrote: I must admit I'm confused as well... starts with a new website and ends up in a dictatorship ? This thread's really getting more and more interesting :P Until now we (stripes users) always have reached consensus. I think the whole core team and other usual suspects are legit to speak on any decision, because they have proven dedication over the years. Even like this, nobody never abused, people were always ok to discuss things and not impose anything to others by force. Until then, this system has had an excellent impact on the quality of the framework. Now why would Stripes suddenly need a single responsible person as THE project lead ? Don't get me wrong, again, all efforts are appreciated. But just to get things clear, what would you do exactly as THE project lead ? What's the void you're trying to fill ? And most of all, why do you think you need to be the only lead ? What's your problem in sharing this responsibility ? Ain't this kind of proposal at the opposite of the Open Source philosophy (groups of people sharing common interests and working together to get things done) ? Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Edward Smith esm...@peopleanswers.commailto:esm...@peopleanswers.com Evan, I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes needs most is leadership, plain and simple. If you or anyone else has the capability to lead a project, then great. Go for it. Knock yourself out. It sounds like you have some leadership acumen so it wouldn't bother me a bit if *you* want to take the reigns. If not, then I'm offering my services free of charge to the Stripes community. All I'm interested in is that *somebody* do it. Period. This ad hoc crap just ain't gonna cut it. Ed Edward Smith Senior Software Developer 214-272-5225 (direct) esm...@peopleanswers.commailto:esm...@peopleanswers.com PeopleAnswers® Better Insight. Better People. Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.comhttp://blog.peopleanswers.com/ -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.netmailto:Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Edward, Really I didn't mean to be harshe. My poor english + all this story... Anyway. I just want to know what you mean by project lead. If it's about coordinating things, managing releases, organizing bugs, doing some marketing, keeping people up-to-date and organized, well, we certainly need that. Freddy did some of that job very well, he's been quite a good representative for us, and the book has made Stripes a lot more popular than it's ever been. Yes, we might need other profiles than coding monkeys like the core team currently is (no pun intended), if we want Stripes to be really popular. Note that I don't really understand why everyone wants this to happen so badly, but anyway... On the other hand, if it's about deciding of the future of the framework without commonn agreement (I'm expecially concerned about the design and APIs, I don't really care about the markting aspect - again, it works for me), then we have a problem. As I already said, I believe in consensus. And if you really need to be the only one deciding for the choices made in the framework, then fork and do whatever you like. Who knows ? Maybe you'll eventually come up with a better Stripes, and I'll use yours. Until then, well, I personally refer sticking to the good old community way, where everyone has his word to say, and we all try to understand each other's view. Not only it's productive, I find it very enjoyable :) Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Edward Smith esm...@peopleanswers.com Any transfer in stewardship should probably be to a committer, or a regular submitter at the very least +1 from me. Anything else I say on the matter will just confuse things even more. *Edward Smith* *Senior Software Developer* *214-272-5225 (direct)* *esm...@peopleanswers.com** * *PeopleAnswers**®** ** ** *Better Insight. Better People. ** *Check out our blog: blog.peopleanswers.com* CONFIDENTIALITY NOTE: This email (including any attachments) is confidential and may be protected by legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein is prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and then delete this message in its entirety. Thank you for your cooperation. *From:* Brandon Atkinson [mailto:brandon.n.atkin...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, September 21, 2010 1:54 PM *To:* r...@rvkb.com; Stripes Users List *Subject:* Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX) I must admit I'm confused as well... starts with a new website and ends up in a dictatorship ? This thread's really getting more and more interesting :P +1 to that. Love the drama :) Any transfer in stewardship should probably be to a committer, or a regular submitter at the very least. Otherwise, just fork, and let the best team win. On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:28 PM, VANKEISBELCK Remi r...@rvkb.com wrote: I must admit I'm confused as well... starts with a new website and ends up in a dictatorship ? This thread's really getting more and more interesting :P Until now we (stripes users) always have reached consensus. I think the whole core team and other usual suspects are legit to speak on any decision, because they have proven dedication over the years. Even like this, nobody never abused, people were always ok to discuss things and not impose anything to others by force. Until then, this system has had an excellent impact on the quality of the framework. Now why would Stripes suddenly need a single responsible person as THE project lead ? Don't get me wrong, again, all efforts are appreciated. But just to get things clear, what would you do exactly as THE project lead ? What's the void you're trying to fill ? And most of all, why do you think you need to be the only lead ? What's your problem in sharing this responsibility ? Ain't this kind of proposal at the opposite of the Open Source philosophy (groups of people sharing common interests and working together to get things done) ? Cheers Remi 2010/9/21 Edward Smith esm...@peopleanswers.com Evan, I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes needs most is leadership, plain and simple. If you or anyone else has the capability to lead a project, then great. Go for it. Knock yourself out. It sounds like you have some leadership acumen so it wouldn't bother me a bit if *you* want to take the reigns. If not, then I'm offering my services free of charge to the Stripes community. All I'm interested in is that *somebody* do it. Period. This ad hoc crap just ain't gonna cut it. Ed *Edward Smith* *Senior Software Developer* *214-272-5225 (direct)* *esm...@peopleanswers.com
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Just my 2c, I hope this doesn't make things worse in terms of misunderstandings. I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes needs most is leadership, plain and simple. Personally, I was thrilled when I read Ed's comment. I did not read any dictatorship into it. All I read was that someone was willing to step up to the plate, stating it clearly, no two ways about it. I respect that very much. I agree that Stripes needs leadership. Again, I don't see this as a synonym of dictatorship, nor an opposite to consensus. What I do see in this is someone, Ed, who has the skill and the will to assume the role of Stripes lead. This does not mean to rule out other participants. But, IMHO, we do *need* someone that decides and makes things happen. Sure, it's all teamwork, but at the end of the day, when someone submits a patch, asks when the next release will be, asks if a feature belongs in the framework, and so on, there has to be *someone* who is *committed* to addressing and responding. It's not a one-man show. But the problem with a team of contributors without someone who is the lead, is that for some issues, everyone looks at everyone else and no one responds. This is why I applaud Ed's statement that he is willing to take on this responsibility for Stripes. First on the list, I think, is to plan out the release of Stripes 1.5.x and Stripes 1.6, and work from there. Again, just my 2c. I hope I didn't create more than resolve conflict, and please also know that I don't mean to speak for you, Ed. I'm just expressing what I read into it, and I hope it rings true with your intentions. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that you would become a dictator, nor that you wouldn't encourage teamwork and healthy discussions about Stripes' future. Personally, I say thanks, Ed. You have my vote. Cheers, Freddy -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Freddy, I hear what you're saying. I think I may have steering things in the wrong direction using words like autocratic. I actually agree with what you're saying here, that there is a need for a lead. My question to Ed should probably be restated more simply as, Would you tell us a little bit about how you would run things? That seems like a fair question to ask I think before voting or anything like that. Not to mention that Ben still seems invested from his email this morning as well. (Correct me if I'm wrong Ben). Evan On Sep 21, 2010, at 2:07 PM, Freddy Daoud wrote: Just my 2c, I hope this doesn't make things worse in terms of misunderstandings. I am not interested in taking a leading role, I am interested in taking *the lead*. Yes, I am aware of how this comes across and no I will not apologize for it. As I have stated before, what Stripes needs most is leadership, plain and simple. Personally, I was thrilled when I read Ed's comment. I did not read any dictatorship into it. All I read was that someone was willing to step up to the plate, stating it clearly, no two ways about it. I respect that very much. I agree that Stripes needs leadership. Again, I don't see this as a synonym of dictatorship, nor an opposite to consensus. What I do see in this is someone, Ed, who has the skill and the will to assume the role of Stripes lead. This does not mean to rule out other participants. But, IMHO, we do *need* someone that decides and makes things happen. Sure, it's all teamwork, but at the end of the day, when someone submits a patch, asks when the next release will be, asks if a feature belongs in the framework, and so on, there has to be *someone* who is *committed* to addressing and responding. It's not a one-man show. But the problem with a team of contributors without someone who is the lead, is that for some issues, everyone looks at everyone else and no one responds. This is why I applaud Ed's statement that he is willing to take on this responsibility for Stripes. First on the list, I think, is to plan out the release of Stripes 1.5.x and Stripes 1.6, and work from there. Again, just my 2c. I hope I didn't create more than resolve conflict, and please also know that I don't mean to speak for you, Ed. I'm just expressing what I read into it, and I hope it rings true with your intentions. I'm pretty sure you didn't mean that you would become a dictator, nor that you wouldn't encourage teamwork and healthy discussions about Stripes' future. Personally, I say thanks, Ed. You have my vote. Cheers, Freddy -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Hi Nikolaos, Simply put, I agree with what you've said. However, I haven't the power (in terms of user permissions, nor in terms of authority) to hand over the keys to the Stripes framework to someone who is willing and able to take over the role. I do agree that someone actively involved needs to take the lead, and also that everyone who has manifested their enthusiasm to contribute to the framework should have an easy way to submit their patches, with previously mentioned leader promptly supervising the acceptance or not of submissions (the framework still needs someone to keep Stripes true to its tight focus). Cheers, Freddy -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Evan, Regarding your comment about forking the code being a last resort, I'm not too sure about that. In fact, I think forks are absolutely critical when an OSS project is at a plateau. Forking gets a really bad name, but I think it is critical to a project's evolution. Some of the most successful OSS projects out there were a result of forks. Especially when you look at a Linux distribution like Ubuntu. Ubuntu really was forked just to get more frequent and fresh releases. Even today, it still maintains the Debian base. It has a couple of add-on features. I could easily see Stripes doing this. All it really takes is a few people who are willing to prioritize some goals (usually high-impact defects or enhancement requests)... and then the fork is done. In my opinion, a fork is necessary with Stripes right now. No release in 9 months. A growing backlog of high-impact items. A community that is expressing serious concern. Code that is committed or offered to be committed without review or response. Nobody who can really hands the keys over. Sounds like the makings of a fork to me. Someone just needs to step forward and do it. Personally, I would hope one of the original code contributors would do it -- and then take a passive role. But usually for political or personal reasons, that isn't done. -- Rick On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Evan Leonard evan.leon...@gmail.comwrote: Nikolaos, Thank you for the thoughtful summary of the state of things. Since I just popped up here recently with my opinions, I thought it might be useful to introduce myself briefly, so people know where I'm coming from. Starting in 2003, I began working at a startup in the SOAP/SOA world. We built a product using Struts 1.1 which was the best thing at the time. And I worked to overcoming its warts. I added flash scope, view models, and a number of other things by extending the core struts processor. I started down the road of creating some fancy-pants UI controls that would maintain their state seemlessly across request cycles using a viewstate concept like ASP.NET. (I abandoned this idea later, but want to give you an idea of the experiments I did working with struts). By the time the app was done we had a 1400+ line struts.config file. I know the pains of struts well. Since then I've gone looking for something better. While still at that company we tried Grails, by bringing in the old app under a new grails app using the grails-struts plugin. Grails was, well, disappointing. You never can get away from the fact that groovy compiles to java before compiling to bytecode. The amount of reflection that happens to make a single method call is astounding. And then there's the magic stuff that appears in context somehow, and you have noway of knowing without digging through the documentation. Which brings me to rails. I've tried to prototype a number of things in Rails, and for all its buzz about being fast to develop, it never felt fast to me. The amount of time I spent going through documentation to understand what's in context was frustrating. I'm sure its super fast once you've spent a thousand hours learning it, but the ramp-up time is deceiving. There are a number of good things to learn from the design of the platform and the organization of community ecosystem however. ( (I won't bother covering my opinions about Springsource. Others have stated the situation there well already) So, when recently I needed to select a new web framework and was pointed to Stripes by a former colleague and friend of mine I liked what I saw. The ability to customize Stripes is great (for the most part), the way it can be made to work with other frameworks is great (for the most part). But before committing to using it for the next year or more, I would really like to see an active community around it. Where there is a clear process for giving feedback, submitting patches, and generally contributing. This is the one area that is currently lacking. Yes, there are all the perception problems too that people have discussed. But if those are solved and there is still no clear way to contribute to the project, then the new interest won't turn into new activity. Stripes isn't perfect, I'm looking at integrating a different db layer other than hibernate, and I've found a few places I would like to be able to hook that are not currently hookable. I would like to be able to have my validations on my model classes and have them carried through to the view by Stripe's validation layer. But I don't know who to talk with to make these things happen. I've seen other projects come to forking the code when the current owners of the project aren't able to continue or turn things over to others. That's usually the last resort. I certainly don't have the time to become a core maintainer on a project. But I do have time (and experience) to help a community organize itself around a
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Hi guysI've been following this resurrection thread for a while and even though I contributed some core parts to Stripes in the early days I haven't really had the need for something like Stripes in a long time (for instance it lacks proper REST and Comet style support).IMO Stripes has faded because it has been too difficult to participate, add patches and features.I like that the core of Stripes is kept tight, with focus on extensibility and what's the core things for an Action based MVC framework.The low learning curve and the easy extensibility was what attracted me to Stripes in the first place, but the lack of progress new releases is hurting Stripes.Since this thread has appeared and have started a good discussion, I think it's important to reach a consensus on where to take Stripes.IMO if this thread dies out with any clear forward action, then Stripes is going to whither.I agree with Rick, forking would be a good way to move forward.My suggestion is to put Stripes on GitHub and allow people for Fork it like crazy - see what the community can come up with and harvest the best ideas by pulling from the best contributers.But IMO it's important that someone like Ben, Aaron or Freddy be the one(s) maintaining the "official" Git Master and decide what gets pulled into the official Stripes release.Perhaps someone will come by and create a fork that blows everyone away - let's see what could happen ;)/JeppeOn Sun, 19 Sep 2010 20:27:21 +0200, Rick Grashel rgras...@gmail.com wrote:Evan,Regarding your comment about forking the code being a last resort, I'm not too sure about that. In fact, I think forks are absolutely critical when an OSS project is at a plateau. Forking gets a really bad name, but I think it is critical to a project's evolution. Some of the most successful OSS projects out there were a result of forks. Especially when you look at a Linux distribution like Ubuntu. Ubuntu really was forked just to get more frequent and fresh releases. Even today, it still maintains the Debian base. It has a couple of add-on features. I could easily see Stripes doing this. All it really takes is a few people who are willing to prioritize some goals (usually high-impact defects or enhancement requests)... and then the fork is done. In my opinion, a fork is necessary with Stripes right now. No release in 9 months. A growing backlog of high-impact items. A community that is expressing serious concern. Code that is committed or offered to be committed without review or response. Nobody who can really hands the keys over. Sounds like the makings of a fork to me. Someone just needs to step forward and do it. Personally, I would hope one of the original code contributors would do it -- and then take a passive role. But usually for political or personal reasons, that isn't done. -- RickOn Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Evan Leonard evan.leon...@gmail.com wrote: Nikolaos, Thank you for the thoughtful summary of the state of things. Since I just popped up here recently with my opinions, I thought it might be useful to introduce myself briefly, so people know where I'm coming from. Starting in 2003, I began working at a startup in the SOAP/SOA world. We built a product using Struts 1.1 which was "the best thing at the time". And I worked to overcoming its warts. I added flash scope, view models, and a number of other things by extending the core struts processor. I started down the road of creating some fancy-pants UI controls that would maintain their state seemlessly across request cycles using a viewstate concept like ASP.NET. (I abandoned this idea later, but want to give you an idea of the experiments I did working with struts). By the time the app was done we had a 1400+ line struts.config file. I know the pains of struts well. Since then I've gone looking for something better. While still at that company we tried Grails, by bringing in the old app under a new grails app using the grails-struts plugin. Grails was, well, disappointing. You never can get away from the fact that groovy compiles to java before compiling to bytecode. The amount of reflection that happens to make a single method call is astounding. And then there's the magic stuff that appears in context somehow, and you have noway of knowing without digging through the documentation. Which brings me to rails. I've tried to prototype a number of things in Rails, and for all its buzz about being fast to develop, it never felt fast to me. The amount of time I spent going through documentation to understand what's in context was frustrating. I'm sure its super fast once you've spent a thousand hours learning it, but the ramp-up time is deceiving. There are a number of good things to learn from the design of the platform and the organization of community ecosystem however. ( (I won't bother covering my opinions about Springsource. Others have stated the situation there well already) So, when recently I needed to select a
[Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Ben, You have made it clear that you needed to get away from the code back in June after having made a flurry of commits. Everyone understands and appreciates what you have done for Stripes as you have single handedly maintained Stripes for quite some time (I assume since its beginnings with Tim) and have been an incredible driving force IMO. But the time of a single developer cobbling together code OR merely accepting patches that are ready and tested from the community - but not having the time to integrate them - must be over. At some point in time we need to stand aside to see a project grow otherwise we will - and not to be dramatic - smother it and indeed it will die... . There are developers like Evan, Nicolai, myself (down the road) and others in the wings (whose names I don't have readily with me but have voiced themselves already) that are ready to get involved **today** and / or contribute their extensions that they have built for their real world projects... and yet the lack of response to requests on how to get involved is quite unsettling to say the least. Another area... 1.5.3 was released on December 16, 2009 yet a full 9 months later it still does not appear in Maven Central. One suggested solution was to setup a Sonatype repo for Stripes so that it automatically syncs to Maven Central. In STS-738 back in May of this year you said In case you missed my note on the mailing list the other day, I'm working on getting this going through Sonatype. I'll resolve this issue when it's done. The fact that it isn't setup is not my biggest concern and is not a problem as in the end you volunteer your efforts / time. However since then others including Samuel Santos and Nathan Maves have offered to help setup a Sonatype repo for Stripes - which they both have stated they have experience doing - yet once again no reply to their offers to help. Once again this is unsettling... . This thread is by no means meant to be critical of your contributions... as they most likely overshadow everyone else's in this community for their extent and dedication. This is meant more as a wake up call to all those that hold the keys to Stripes. I assume that includes yourself, Freddy and Aaron but don't know for sure... . In my mind 3 things need to happen for Stripes to prosper: 1) Getting Stripes automatically sync'd up through Sonatype will deflect the perception that the project is stale i.e. 9 months since its last release is no big deal... not having its latest release out there where it can be *effortlessly consumed* *IS* IMO. 2) Some process needs to be setup to allow others to get into the ground floor as contributors. This OSS at its best. There are numerous talented people on this list alone that not letting go of the keys WILL kill Stripes. Period. As I personally have not led any OSS projects I am not sure what the best procedure / process to follow is nor do I know where to start but I'm sure others can chime in on how to properly initiate this. If this was truly difficult then OSS would not exist. This is *CRITICAL*. 3) All the other good initiatives that have been started need to continue like setting up a new web site, a better place for forums (mailing lists are wonderful but people search the web more often than mailing lists for quick answers), deciding on how to partition extensions, stacks, etc... (of course there is debate here), etc... But if 1) and 2) don't happen then yes not to sound dramatic Stripes will surely die... not b/c it isn't a great product... but b/c people like myself and others in the community will feel that they are beating a dead horse in trying to get involved... and will simply give up and look elsewhere. If you alienate those that the early adopters / sneezers then 3) won't matter at all. Ben, Freddy and / or Aaron... its time to step up to the plate... to if anything hand over the keys and take on a reviewer / advisor role in the future of this wonderful framework. Regards, --Nikolaos Evan Leonard wrote: Nicolai, Absolutely. This is a must. I am starting to use Stripes for a project and want to participate in the community. However, its not clear how to do so! Is it clear in the community how decisions are made about these things? Are there certain core developers with some level of authority? Forgive me as I'm just coming up to speed. Evan -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Stripes-users mailing list Stripes-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/stripes-users
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Thank you Nikolaos. You made an important statement. I think too that we need a way to let other people get involved. Those who are holding the keys to Stripes please let us in :))) Regards Søren Den 18/09/2010 kl. 18.09 skrev Nikolaos Giannopoulos nikol...@brightminds.org: Ben, You have made it clear that you needed to get away from the code back in June after having made a flurry of commits. Everyone understands and appreciates what you have done for Stripes as you have single handedly maintained Stripes for quite some time (I assume since its beginnings with Tim) and have been an incredible driving force IMO. But the time of a single developer cobbling together code OR merely accepting patches that are ready and tested from the community - but not having the time to integrate them - must be over. At some point in time we need to stand aside to see a project grow otherwise we will - and not to be dramatic - smother it and indeed it will die... . There are developers like Evan, Nicolai, myself (down the road) and others in the wings (whose names I don't have readily with me but have voiced themselves already) that are ready to get involved **today** and / or contribute their extensions that they have built for their real world projects... and yet the lack of response to requests on how to get involved is quite unsettling to say the least. Another area... 1.5.3 was released on December 16, 2009 yet a full 9 months later it still does not appear in Maven Central. One suggested solution was to setup a Sonatype repo for Stripes so that it automatically syncs to Maven Central. In STS-738 back in May of this year you said In case you missed my note on the mailing list the other day, I'm working on getting this going through Sonatype. I'll resolve this issue when it's done. The fact that it isn't setup is not my biggest concern and is not a problem as in the end you volunteer your efforts / time. However since then others including Samuel Santos and Nathan Maves have offered to help setup a Sonatype repo for Stripes - which they both have stated they have experience doing - yet once again no reply to their offers to help. Once again this is unsettling... . This thread is by no means meant to be critical of your contributions... as they most likely overshadow everyone else's in this community for their extent and dedication. This is meant more as a wake up call to all those that hold the keys to Stripes. I assume that includes yourself, Freddy and Aaron but don't know for sure... . In my mind 3 things need to happen for Stripes to prosper: 1) Getting Stripes automatically sync'd up through Sonatype will deflect the perception that the project is stale i.e. 9 months since its last release is no big deal... not having its latest release out there where it can be *effortlessly consumed* *IS* IMO. 2) Some process needs to be setup to allow others to get into the ground floor as contributors. This OSS at its best. There are numerous talented people on this list alone that not letting go of the keys WILL kill Stripes. Period. As I personally have not led any OSS projects I am not sure what the best procedure / process to follow is nor do I know where to start but I'm sure others can chime in on how to properly initiate this. If this was truly difficult then OSS would not exist. This is *CRITICAL*. 3) All the other good initiatives that have been started need to continue like setting up a new web site, a better place for forums (mailing lists are wonderful but people search the web more often than mailing lists for quick answers), deciding on how to partition extensions, stacks, etc... (of course there is debate here), etc... But if 1) and 2) don't happen then yes not to sound dramatic Stripes will surely die... not b/c it isn't a great product... but b/c people like myself and others in the community will feel that they are beating a dead horse in trying to get involved... and will simply give up and look elsewhere. If you alienate those that the early adopters / sneezers then 3) won't matter at all. Ben, Freddy and / or Aaron... its time to step up to the plate... to if anything hand over the keys and take on a reviewer / advisor role in the future of this wonderful framework. Regards, --Nikolaos Evan Leonard wrote: Nicolai, Absolutely. This is a must. I am starting to use Stripes for a project and want to participate in the community. However, its not clear how to do so! Is it clear in the community how decisions are made about these things? Are there certain core developers with some level of authority? Forgive me as I'm just coming up to speed. Evan -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify
Re: [Stripes-users] IMPORTANT:: Developing stripes (Future... Part DEUX)
Nikolaos, Thank you for the thoughtful summary of the state of things. Since I just popped up here recently with my opinions, I thought it might be useful to introduce myself briefly, so people know where I'm coming from. Starting in 2003, I began working at a startup in the SOAP/SOA world. We built a product using Struts 1.1 which was the best thing at the time. And I worked to overcoming its warts. I added flash scope, view models, and a number of other things by extending the core struts processor. I started down the road of creating some fancy-pants UI controls that would maintain their state seemlessly across request cycles using a viewstate concept like ASP.NET. (I abandoned this idea later, but want to give you an idea of the experiments I did working with struts). By the time the app was done we had a 1400+ line struts.config file. I know the pains of struts well. Since then I've gone looking for something better. While still at that company we tried Grails, by bringing in the old app under a new grails app using the grails-struts plugin. Grails was, well, disappointing. You never can get away from the fact that groovy compiles to java before compiling to bytecode. The amount of reflection that happens to make a single method call is astounding. And then there's the magic stuff that appears in context somehow, and you have noway of knowing without digging through the documentation. Which brings me to rails. I've tried to prototype a number of things in Rails, and for all its buzz about being fast to develop, it never felt fast to me. The amount of time I spent going through documentation to understand what's in context was frustrating. I'm sure its super fast once you've spent a thousand hours learning it, but the ramp-up time is deceiving. There are a number of good things to learn from the design of the platform and the organization of community ecosystem however. ( (I won't bother covering my opinions about Springsource. Others have stated the situation there well already) So, when recently I needed to select a new web framework and was pointed to Stripes by a former colleague and friend of mine I liked what I saw. The ability to customize Stripes is great (for the most part), the way it can be made to work with other frameworks is great (for the most part). But before committing to using it for the next year or more, I would really like to see an active community around it. Where there is a clear process for giving feedback, submitting patches, and generally contributing. This is the one area that is currently lacking. Yes, there are all the perception problems too that people have discussed. But if those are solved and there is still no clear way to contribute to the project, then the new interest won't turn into new activity. Stripes isn't perfect, I'm looking at integrating a different db layer other than hibernate, and I've found a few places I would like to be able to hook that are not currently hookable. I would like to be able to have my validations on my model classes and have them carried through to the view by Stripe's validation layer. But I don't know who to talk with to make these things happen. I've seen other projects come to forking the code when the current owners of the project aren't able to continue or turn things over to others. That's usually the last resort. I certainly don't have the time to become a core maintainer on a project. But I do have time (and experience) to help a community organize itself around a good purpose. And it sounds like continuing the spirit of Stripes is a good purpose. So with that, I hope to hear from the folks in the core currently. I hope we can engage in some discussion about what the next steps are with respect to code ownership and the contribution process. Thanks so much for all the work that been put into this project so far. All the best, Evan Leonard On Sep 18, 2010, at 10:09 AM, Nikolaos Giannopoulos wrote: Ben, You have made it clear that you needed to get away from the code back in June after having made a flurry of commits. Everyone understands and appreciates what you have done for Stripes as you have single handedly maintained Stripes for quite some time (I assume since its beginnings with Tim) and have been an incredible driving force IMO. But the time of a single developer cobbling together code OR merely accepting patches that are ready and tested from the community - but not having the time to integrate them - must be over. At some point in time we need to stand aside to see a project grow otherwise we will - and not to be dramatic - smother it and indeed it will die... . There are developers like Evan, Nicolai, myself (down the road) and others in the wings (whose names I don't have readily with me but have voiced themselves already) that are ready to get involved **today** and / or contribute their extensions that
