RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread Andrew Hill 
Well at least its got better hours...


I grew up on a farm & the 'farm management' elective I took in high school
was the only subject  I ever got straights 'A's in. - Come to think of it it
was the only subject I ever got 'A's in at all, but I digress...


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:45
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers


maybe the economic downturn should go on for a while and some of the lesser
talented will go back to farming...
--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Datum: 21.01.2003 17:18
Von: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

> Im surprised sich developers have jobs in todays market.
> Surely there must be a glut of more experienced developers that can be
> obtained at the same price?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:15
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>
>
> ok, I think it's time for us all, to lower our standards: Talking about
> newbies: The newbies I mean have just started Java. They think R/3 is a
> piece of good Software instead of a piece of crappy scripts. They asked
> things like: "What do you mean with Transaction?",  "Huh, why a
database
> *and* an applicationserver?". And if you ask them for their favourite
> tool, they show you a Chainsaw and a Screwdriver(ok, only the better
ones
> have screwdrivers). If you tell them: Use what makes you more
productive
> they stick to paper&pencil. I understand them, if you start there,
there
> is nothing you can decide upon. You have to tell them: But if you have
> more than one senior-coder, it would be nice if they agreed on what
they
> tell them...
>
>
> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> Datum: 21.01.2003 16:48
> Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>
> > This isn't about "expressing your individuality", it's about doing
what
> makes you -- the coder -- more productive. If it's your job to write
code,

> and you feel more comfortable using your favorite tool, then by all
means
> use it.
> >
> > As far as administrative costs are concerned: Coders are smart enough
to
> troubleshoot their own boxes, and if they're not then they damn well
> should be.
> >
> > Newbies? I challenge the notion that forcing new toolsets on them is
> productive in the long run. It is completely within the realm of
> possibility that they will have a shorter ramp-up time if they are able
to
> use tools they are already familiar with to integrate with existing
> standards.
> >
> > In short: I have never encountered a development environment where it
> would be better to standardize upon a single, monolithic work
environment
> for all developers. Some people like Emacs, some like Eclipse, some
like
> directly editing bytecode with a hex editor. Whatever. So long as the
> project gets done on time, on budget, and meets the requirements *it
> doesn't matter*.
> >
> > -= J
> >
> > PS: I am currently working on a team of 12 developers who each use
their
> own toolset. We are ahead of schedule and under budget.
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> > >
> > >
> > > I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
> > > individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.
> > >
> > > If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes
> > > it easier for
> > > administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to
another
> > > member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so
> > > on: Just think
> > > about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses
> > > Eclipse which
> > > has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on
using
> > > IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the
> > > Newbie-Coder
> > > comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of
> > > setting up
> > > your enviroment. No Sta

Re: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread David Geary 
Kenny Smith wrote:


Hi s.frank,

I think your first paragraph and second make different points. I 
completely disagree that choice of IDE is just an aesthetic choice. 
Your second point about the Perforce-Integration is talking about 
specific functionality. If your project requires specific 
functionality, then the choices of IDEs are limited. However, people 
think differently. Take NetBeans and Eclipse. They do the same job, 
but they do it in VASTLY different ways. Why? Because different people 
have different ideas. One person will be far more productive using 
Eclipse and a different person will be more productive with NetBeans.

Yes.


Seriously... who _cares_ if it's easier for an administrator to setup 
a new box. That is a one time event and completely gets lost in the 
amount of time a developer will spend using the machine. In addition, 
IDEs are pretty darn easy to install. My box at work came without one, 
I chose my favorite and installed that one.

Sure -- let each developer set up their own environment.


It's a myth that using one IDE improves team performance.


I agree. Consider Struts (and thus getting this thread somewhat back on 
topic). Who cares what IDE Craig or Ted or any of the other committers 
use? In an OO development environment, define the interfaces between 
subsystems, divie up the work, and integrate the work of different 
developers when the time comes. How each developer accomplishes his 
subsystem is immaterial as long as the functionality and interfaces are 
well-defined.


david



Kenny Smith
JournalScape.com

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B. 
If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier 
for
administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another
member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just 
think
about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse 
which
has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using
IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder
comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up
your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of
one...  
--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
 

I second this. Different people work in different ways; 
standardizing an


IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If
my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like,
they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity.


*shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can 
use


whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and
passes the unit tests.


I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away 
Vim I


would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea.


Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks



quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact 
that
I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do
regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me
married to Vim right now.

-= J



-Original Message-
From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:



My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, 


order is order.


I think his concern about this task is to improve 


productivity. So, what is more productive?

If he wants productivity then let the developers use the tools they 
are
familiar with.


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AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread s . frank 
maybe the economic downturn should go on for a while and some of the lesser
talented will go back to farming...
--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Datum: 21.01.2003 17:18
Von: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

> Im surprised sich developers have jobs in todays market.
> Surely there must be a glut of more experienced developers that can be
> obtained at the same price?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:15
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>
>
> ok, I think it's time for us all, to lower our standards: Talking about
> newbies: The newbies I mean have just started Java. They think R/3 is a
> piece of good Software instead of a piece of crappy scripts. They asked
> things like: "What do you mean with Transaction?",  "Huh, why a
database
> *and* an applicationserver?". And if you ask them for their favourite
> tool, they show you a Chainsaw and a Screwdriver(ok, only the better
ones
> have screwdrivers). If you tell them: Use what makes you more
productive
> they stick to paper&pencil. I understand them, if you start there,
there
> is nothing you can decide upon. You have to tell them: But if you have
> more than one senior-coder, it would be nice if they agreed on what
they
> tell them...
>
>
> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> Datum: 21.01.2003 16:48
> Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>
> > This isn't about "expressing your individuality", it's about doing
what
> makes you -- the coder -- more productive. If it's your job to write
code,

> and you feel more comfortable using your favorite tool, then by all
means
> use it.
> >
> > As far as administrative costs are concerned: Coders are smart enough
to
> troubleshoot their own boxes, and if they're not then they damn well
> should be.
> >
> > Newbies? I challenge the notion that forcing new toolsets on them is
> productive in the long run. It is completely within the realm of
> possibility that they will have a shorter ramp-up time if they are able
to
> use tools they are already familiar with to integrate with existing
> standards.
> >
> > In short: I have never encountered a development environment where it
> would be better to standardize upon a single, monolithic work
environment
> for all developers. Some people like Emacs, some like Eclipse, some
like
> directly editing bytecode with a hex editor. Whatever. So long as the
> project gets done on time, on budget, and meets the requirements *it
> doesn't matter*.
> >
> > -= J
> >
> > PS: I am currently working on a team of 12 developers who each use
their
> own toolset. We are ahead of schedule and under budget.
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> > >
> > >
> > > I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
> > > individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.
> > >
> > > If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes
> > > it easier for
> > > administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to
another
> > > member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so
> > > on: Just think
> > > about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses
> > > Eclipse which
> > > has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on
using
> > > IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the
> > > Newbie-Coder
> > > comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of
> > > setting up
> > > your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size
> of
> > > one...
> > >
> > > --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> > > Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
> > > Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I second this. Different people work in different ways;
>

RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread Andrew Hill 
Im surprised sich developers have jobs in todays market.
Surely there must be a glut of more experienced developers that can be
obtained at the same price?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:15
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers


ok, I think it's time for us all, to lower our standards: Talking about
newbies: The newbies I mean have just started Java. They think R/3 is a
piece of good Software instead of a piece of crappy scripts. They asked
things like: "What do you mean with Transaction?",  "Huh, why a database
*and* an applicationserver?". And if you ask them for their favourite
tool, they show you a Chainsaw and a Screwdriver(ok, only the better ones
have screwdrivers). If you tell them: Use what makes you more productive
they stick to paper&pencil. I understand them, if you start there, there
is nothing you can decide upon. You have to tell them: But if you have
more than one senior-coder, it would be nice if they agreed on what they
tell them...


--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Datum: 21.01.2003 16:48
Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

> This isn't about "expressing your individuality", it's about doing what
makes you -- the coder -- more productive. If it's your job to write code,
and you feel more comfortable using your favorite tool, then by all means
use it.
>
> As far as administrative costs are concerned: Coders are smart enough to
troubleshoot their own boxes, and if they're not then they damn well
should be.
>
> Newbies? I challenge the notion that forcing new toolsets on them is
productive in the long run. It is completely within the realm of
possibility that they will have a shorter ramp-up time if they are able to
use tools they are already familiar with to integrate with existing
standards.
>
> In short: I have never encountered a development environment where it
would be better to standardize upon a single, monolithic work environment
for all developers. Some people like Emacs, some like Eclipse, some like
directly editing bytecode with a hex editor. Whatever. So long as the
project gets done on time, on budget, and meets the requirements *it
doesn't matter*.
>
> -= J
>
> PS: I am currently working on a team of 12 developers who each use their
own toolset. We are ahead of schedule and under budget.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> >
> >
> > I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
> > individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.
> >
> > If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes
> > it easier for
> > administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another
> > member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so
> > on: Just think
> > about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses
> > Eclipse which
> > has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using
> > IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the
> > Newbie-Coder
> > comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of
> > setting up
> > your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size
of
> > one...
> >
> > --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> > Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
> > Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> >
> > >
> > > I second this. Different people work in different ways;
> > standardizing an
> > IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human
> > nature. If
> > my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like,
> > they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing
> > productivity.
> > >
> > > *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company.
> > Everybody can use
> > whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles
and
> > passes the unit tests.
> > >
> > > I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to
> > take away Vim I
> > would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea.
> > >
> > > Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA latel

AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread s . frank 
ok, I think it's time for us all, to lower our standards: Talking about
newbies: The newbies I mean have just started Java. They think R/3 is a
piece of good Software instead of a piece of crappy scripts. They asked
things like: "What do you mean with Transaction?",  "Huh, why a database
*and* an applicationserver?". And if you ask them for their favourite
tool, they show you a Chainsaw and a Screwdriver(ok, only the better ones
have screwdrivers). If you tell them: Use what makes you more productive
they stick to paper&pencil. I understand them, if you start there, there
is nothing you can decide upon. You have to tell them: But if you have
more than one senior-coder, it would be nice if they agreed on what they
tell them...


--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Datum: 21.01.2003 16:48
Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

> This isn't about "expressing your individuality", it's about doing what
makes you -- the coder -- more productive. If it's your job to write code,
and you feel more comfortable using your favorite tool, then by all means
use it.
>
> As far as administrative costs are concerned: Coders are smart enough to
troubleshoot their own boxes, and if they're not then they damn well
should be.
>
> Newbies? I challenge the notion that forcing new toolsets on them is
productive in the long run. It is completely within the realm of
possibility that they will have a shorter ramp-up time if they are able to
use tools they are already familiar with to integrate with existing
standards.
>
> In short: I have never encountered a development environment where it
would be better to standardize upon a single, monolithic work environment
for all developers. Some people like Emacs, some like Eclipse, some like
directly editing bytecode with a hex editor. Whatever. So long as the
project gets done on time, on budget, and meets the requirements *it
doesn't matter*.
>
> -= J
>
> PS: I am currently working on a team of 12 developers who each use their
own toolset. We are ahead of schedule and under budget.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> >
> >
> > I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
> > individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.
> >
> > If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes
> > it easier for
> > administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another
> > member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so
> > on: Just think
> > about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses
> > Eclipse which
> > has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using
> > IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the
> > Newbie-Coder
> > comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of
> > setting up
> > your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size
of
> > one...
> >
> > --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
> > Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
> > Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> >
> > >
> > > I second this. Different people work in different ways;
> > standardizing an
> > IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human
> > nature. If
> > my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like,
> > they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing
> > productivity.
> > >
> > > *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company.
> > Everybody can use
> > whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles
and
> > passes the unit tests.
> > >
> > > I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to
> > take away Vim I
> > would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea.
> > >
> > > Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately,
> > and it looks
> > quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like
> > the fact that
> > I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And
> > it can do
> > regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping
me
> > married to Vim right now.
> > >
> > > -= J
> > >
>

Re: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread Kenny Smith 
Hi s.frank,

I think your first paragraph and second make different points. I 
completely disagree that choice of IDE is just an aesthetic choice. Your 
second point about the Perforce-Integration is talking about specific 
functionality. If your project requires specific functionality, then the 
choices of IDEs are limited. However, people think differently. Take 
NetBeans and Eclipse. They do the same job, but they do it in VASTLY 
different ways. Why? Because different people have different ideas. One 
person will be far more productive using Eclipse and a different person 
will be more productive with NetBeans.

Seriously... who _cares_ if it's easier for an administrator to setup a 
new box. That is a one time event and completely gets lost in the amount 
of time a developer will spend using the machine. In addition, IDEs are 
pretty darn easy to install. My box at work came without one, I chose my 
favorite and installed that one.

It's a myth that using one IDE improves team performance.

Kenny Smith
JournalScape.com

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.  

If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier for
administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another
member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just think
about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse which
has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using
IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder
comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up
your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of
one... 
 
--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- 
Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
 

I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an


IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If
my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like,
they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity.


*shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use


whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and
passes the unit tests. 

I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I


would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea.


Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks


quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that
I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do
regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me
married to Vim right now.


-= J



-Original Message-
From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:



My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, 

order is order.


I think his concern about this task is to improve 

productivity. So, what is more productive?

If he wants productivity then let the developers use the 
tools they are
familiar with.


--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:  

<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


For additional commands, e-mail:


<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




 


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To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




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To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread James Childers 
This isn't about "expressing your individuality", it's about doing what makes you -- 
the coder -- more productive. If it's your job to write code, and you feel more 
comfortable using your favorite tool, then by all means use it. 

As far as administrative costs are concerned: Coders are smart enough to troubleshoot 
their own boxes, and if they're not then they damn well should be. 

Newbies? I challenge the notion that forcing new toolsets on them is productive in the 
long run. It is completely within the realm of possibility that they will have a 
shorter ramp-up time if they are able to use tools they are already familiar with to 
integrate with existing standards.

In short: I have never encountered a development environment where it would be better 
to standardize upon a single, monolithic work environment for all developers. Some 
people like Emacs, some like Eclipse, some like directly editing bytecode with a hex 
editor. Whatever. So long as the project gets done on time, on budget, and meets the 
requirements *it doesn't matter*. 

-= J 

PS: I am currently working on a team of 12 developers who each use their own toolset. 
We are ahead of schedule and under budget. 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> 
> 
> I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
> individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.  
> 
> If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes 
> it easier for
> administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another
> member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so 
> on: Just think
> about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses 
> Eclipse which
> has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using
> IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the 
> Newbie-Coder
> comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of 
> setting up
> your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of
> one... 
>  
> --- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- 
> Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
> Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>  
> > 
> > I second this. Different people work in different ways; 
> standardizing an
> IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human 
> nature. If
> my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like,
> they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing 
> productivity.
> > 
> > *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. 
> Everybody can use
> whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and
> passes the unit tests. 
> > 
> > I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to 
> take away Vim I
> would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea.
> > 
> > Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, 
> and it looks
> quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like 
> the fact that
> I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And 
> it can do
> regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me
> married to Vim right now.
> > 
> > -= J
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM
> > > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > > Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> > > 
> > > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:
> > > 
> > > > My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, 
> > > order is order.
> > > >  I think his concern about this task is to improve 
> > > productivity. So, what is more productive?
> > > 
> > > If he wants productivity then let the developers use the 
> > > tools they are
> > > familiar with.
> > > 
> > 

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RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread Chappell, Simon P 
The IDE is important to the developer, but not to the team. Therefore the developer 
should pick their own IDE.

The build system is important to the team, so the team should pick the build system.

The Source Code Management system is important to the company, so let the company pick 
the SCM.

I have no objection to standards that help a given situation, but standards don't help 
when they are used like duct tape to bind your hands.

I actually prefer to use text editors instead of IDE's, but if the developer in the 
next cube wants to use an IDE, then that is fine. As long as they produce good code 
that meets the project need and passes it's unit tests, what do I care how it was 
brought into being.

Simon

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:30 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>
>
>I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
>individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.  
>
>If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it 
>easier for
>administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another
>member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so 
>on: Just think
>about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses 
>Eclipse which
>has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using
>IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the 
>Newbie-Coder
>comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of 
>setting up
>your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of
>one... 
> 
>--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --- 
>Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
>Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> 
>> 
>> I second this. Different people work in different ways; 
>standardizing an
>IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human 
>nature. If
>my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like,
>they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing 
>productivity.
>> 
>> *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. 
>Everybody can use
>whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and
>passes the unit tests. 
>> 
>> I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to 
>take away Vim I
>would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea.
>> 
>> Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks
>quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like 
>the fact that
>I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do
>regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me
>married to Vim right now.
>> 
>> -= J
>> 
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM
>> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
>> > Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>> > 
>> > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:
>> > 
>> > > My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, 
>> > order is order.
>> > >  I think his concern about this task is to improve 
>> > productivity. So, what is more productive?
>> > 
>> > If he wants productivity then let the developers use the 
>> > tools they are
>> > familiar with.
>> > 
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail:
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> 
>>
> 
>
>
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AW: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread s . frank 
I think there exist many and more fruitful ways to express your
individuality than using IDE A rather than that ide B.

If the IDE is not important, why not standardize one: Makes it easier for
administrators to setup new boxes, allows to pass the box to another
member of your team, allows to use the same plug-ins and so on: Just think
about Integration with version-Control: Cowboy-Coder A uses Eclipse which
has a bug with Perforce-Integration, Cowboy-Coder B insists on using
IntelliJ, which has no Perforce-Integration at all: And the Newbie-Coder
comes in and is totally confused as there exist three ways of setting up
your enviroment. No Standards at all are ok if you have a team-size of
one...

--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Datum: 21.01.2003 16:20
Von: "James Childers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Betreff: RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

>
> I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an
IDE for every developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If
my company were to standardize on an IDE that some people don't like,
they're just going to be frustrated and bitter, decreasing productivity.
>
> *shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use
whatever development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and
passes the unit tests.
>
> I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I
would have to tell them to... well... You get the idea.
>
> Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks
quite promising. Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that
I can do everything within it without using the keyboard. And it can do
regexp search and replaces, which is one of the main things keeping me
married to Vim right now.
>
> -= J
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM
> > To: Struts Users Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> >
> > On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:
> >
> > > My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So,
> > order is order.
> > >  I think his concern about this task is to improve
> > productivity. So, what is more productive?
> >
> > If he wants productivity then let the developers use the
> > tools they are
> > familiar with.
> >
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>



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RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread James Childers 

I second this. Different people work in different ways; standardizing an IDE for every 
developer ignores this rather key fact of human nature. If my company were to 
standardize on an IDE that some people don't like, they're just going to be frustrated 
and bitter, decreasing productivity.

*shudder* Thank Baal they don't do that at my company. Everybody can use whatever 
development tools they want, so long as the code compiles and passes the unit tests. 

I use Eclipse and Vim, primarily. If management tried to take away Vim I would have to 
tell them to... well... You get the idea.

Speaking of which, I've been tinkering with IDEA lately, and it looks quite promising. 
Tight, and as fast as Eclipse. Plus I like the fact that I can do everything within it 
without using the keyboard. And it can do regexp search and replaces, which is one of 
the main things keeping me married to Vim right now.

-= J

> -Original Message-
> From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
> 
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:
> 
> > My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, 
> order is order.
> >  I think his concern about this task is to improve 
> productivity. So, what is more productive?
> 
> If he wants productivity then let the developers use the 
> tools they are
> familiar with.
> 

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RE: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread Chappell, Simon P 

>-Original Message-
>From: Alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 9:16 AM
>To: Struts Users Mailing List
>Subject: Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers
>
>
>
>
>On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:
>
>> My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, 
>order is order.
>>  I think his concern about this task is to improve 
>productivity. So, what is more productive?
>
>If he wants productivity then let the developers use the tools they are
>familiar with.

You are so right, but also so not going to get that. Sorry. See the "Standardised 
Environments" thread for this very point.

Simon

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Re: [OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread Alex 


On Tue, 21 Jan 2003, Daniel H. F. e Silva wrote:

> My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, order is order.
>  I think his concern about this task is to improve productivity. So, what is more 
>productive?

If he wants productivity then let the developers use the tools they are
familiar with.


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[OT] Eclipse IDE - The Two Towers

2003-01-21 Thread Daniel H. F. e Silva 
Hi all,
 I do appreciate all feedback posted here in this list.
 Well, i am only executing orders. I don't intend to obligate everybody to adopt my
recomendations.
My boss wants a standard environment to all developers. So, order is order.
 I think his concern about this task is to improve productivity. So, what is more 
productive?
 Following our discussion, does someone have experience writing Eclipse plugins? How 
difficult is
this kind of task?

Best regards,
 Daniel.
 


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