RE: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
If you have a good lead person on your team, that makes all the difference. Someone has to know what they are doing, and then everyone speeds up. That is especially true if you are using the pluses of the Xtremists. There are lots of good people out there to take these positions. I understand James Mitchell is looking for work and I would hire him at the drop of a hat, if I had a position, which I don't. My sense is that there are a lot of good people that can take Struts out the door, today, anywhere. Struts is not the problem. Struts is the solution. There are other simpler frameworks, like Maverick. You can even build your own framework. Struts is a pretty good framework (I take pretty good to be very good) that you can also tweak. I personally wish that the Struts people would just take the bull by the horns and make a big shift in the framework, using all the things that have been learned since its inception. I probably am not as smart as they are in this respect. There is a pretty huge change, however, in 1.1 which is really welcomed. At 01:54 AM 3/29/03 -0600, you wrote: I think you can do the kid in a candy store thing with Struts all too easily. As with any project, make sure you set your goals in a design doc, just because struts can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. I had a project hit a wall because my boss kept asking if I could do this and that, yeah, struts can allow me to do that... Okay, why don't we add that then... -Jacob | -Original Message- | From: Navjot Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:51 PM | To: Struts Users List | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | here are my 2 cents to this discussion ;-) | | Initially, the development with struts can be slow. I won't say Struts is | complex, it is easy but to create a simple form submission you got to have | quite a number of files in set up. But slowly the things get sunk into | your | mind and then it's real fast process. | However, the speed can be increased with tools like Easystruts and IDEs | giving extensive support to Struts. | | - navjot singh | | - Original Message - | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:26 AM | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | | | I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but it | can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that | backslash? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps | developers | to fight with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from functional | prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even | more, | so we see more demand for good tools. | | Once again, I do not to offend anybody. | | Thank you for answer, | Igor. | | On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different | environments. | | Igor, | | In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to | the | learning | curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be | getting | maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a | good | chance you | will be able to find talent if needed. | | Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory structure | for your | source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding | functionality as you | feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate users. | Before | implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will | find | that a lot | of problems were already discussed and solved) | | Mark. | | David Graham wrote: | | I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many | highly | paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average | developer | gets | $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. | | Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop | their | own | framework? | | David | | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List struts- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 | | | Hello, all! | Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or | decrease) | developer productivity. I mean, for example, â??using Strutsâ?? can | save up | to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort | (in | terms of number of lines of code) etc. | And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody | helps more | â?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else. | I | understand that depends too much from specific project â?? but I | need | just
Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
James Michell is out of work? Me too. How many good ppl are in the same situation these days? Sorry for breaking out of the rythm. -D - Original Message - From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:05 AM Subject: RE: Do Struts increase developer productivity? If you have a good lead person on your team, that makes all the difference. Someone has to know what they are doing, and then everyone speeds up. That is especially true if you are using the pluses of the Xtremists. There are lots of good people out there to take these positions. I understand James Mitchell is looking for work and I would hire him at the drop of a hat, if I had a position, which I don't. My sense is that there are a lot of good people that can take Struts out the door, today, anywhere. Struts is not the problem. Struts is the solution. There are other simpler frameworks, like Maverick. You can even build your own framework. Struts is a pretty good framework (I take pretty good to be very good) that you can also tweak. I personally wish that the Struts people would just take the bull by the horns and make a big shift in the framework, using all the things that have been learned since its inception. I probably am not as smart as they are in this respect. There is a pretty huge change, however, in 1.1 which is really welcomed. At 01:54 AM 3/29/03 -0600, you wrote: I think you can do the kid in a candy store thing with Struts all too easily. As with any project, make sure you set your goals in a design doc, just because struts can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. I had a project hit a wall because my boss kept asking if I could do this and that, yeah, struts can allow me to do that... Okay, why don't we add that then... -Jacob | -Original Message- | From: Navjot Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:51 PM | To: Struts Users List | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | here are my 2 cents to this discussion ;-) | | Initially, the development with struts can be slow. I won't say Struts is | complex, it is easy but to create a simple form submission you got to have | quite a number of files in set up. But slowly the things get sunk into | your | mind and then it's real fast process. | However, the speed can be increased with tools like Easystruts and IDEs | giving extensive support to Struts. | | - navjot singh | | - Original Message - | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:26 AM | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | | | I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but it | can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that | backslash? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps | developers | to fight with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from functional | prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even | more, | so we see more demand for good tools. | | Once again, I do not to offend anybody. | | Thank you for answer, | Igor. | | On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different | environments. | | Igor, | | In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to | the | learning | curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be | getting | maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a | good | chance you | will be able to find talent if needed. | | Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory structure | for your | source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding | functionality as you | feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate users. | Before | implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will | find | that a lot | of problems were already discussed and solved) | | Mark. | | David Graham wrote: | | I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many | highly | paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average | developer | gets | $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. | | Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop | their | own | framework? | | David | | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List struts- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 | | | Hello, all! | Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or | decrease) | developer productivity. I mean, for example, â??using Strutsâ?? can | save up | to xx% of development cost. Or save up
Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
On Sat, 2003-03-29 at 10:02, Dan Tran wrote: James Michell is out of work? Me too. How many good ppl are in the same situation these days? Well, I'm not actually out of work yet, but my current contract is almost over and I've been looking for months. As much as I love to evangelize Struts, there just aren't very many jobs out there. Sorry for breaking out of the rythm. -D - Original Message - From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:05 AM Subject: RE: Do Struts increase developer productivity? If you have a good lead person on your team, that makes all the difference. Someone has to know what they are doing, and then everyone speeds up. That is especially true if you are using the pluses of the Xtremists. There are lots of good people out there to take these positions. I understand James Mitchell is looking for work and I would hire him at the drop of a hat, if I had a position, which I don't. My sense is that there are a lot of good people that can take Struts out the door, today, anywhere. Struts is not the problem. Struts is the solution. There are other simpler frameworks, like Maverick. You can even build your own framework. Struts is a pretty good framework (I take pretty good to be very good) that you can also tweak. I personally wish that the Struts people would just take the bull by the horns and make a big shift in the framework, using all the things that have been learned since its inception. I probably am not as smart as they are in this respect. There is a pretty huge change, however, in 1.1 which is really welcomed. At 01:54 AM 3/29/03 -0600, you wrote: I think you can do the kid in a candy store thing with Struts all too easily. As with any project, make sure you set your goals in a design doc, just because struts can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. I had a project hit a wall because my boss kept asking if I could do this and that, yeah, struts can allow me to do that... Okay, why don't we add that then... -Jacob | -Original Message- | From: Navjot Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:51 PM | To: Struts Users List | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | here are my 2 cents to this discussion ;-) | | Initially, the development with struts can be slow. I won't say Struts is | complex, it is easy but to create a simple form submission you got to have | quite a number of files in set up. But slowly the things get sunk into | your | mind and then it's real fast process. | However, the speed can be increased with tools like Easystruts and IDEs | giving extensive support to Struts. | | - navjot singh | | - Original Message - | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:26 AM | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | | | I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but it | can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that | backslash? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps | developers | to fight with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from functional | prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even | more, | so we see more demand for good tools. | | Once again, I do not to offend anybody. | | Thank you for answer, | Igor. | | On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different | environments. | | Igor, | | In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to | the | learning | curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be | getting | maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a | good | chance you | will be able to find talent if needed. | | Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory structure | for your | source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding | functionality as you | feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate users. | Before | implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will | find | that a lot | of problems were already discussed and solved) | | Mark. | | David Graham wrote: | | I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many | highly | paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average | developer | gets | $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. | | Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop | their | own | framework? | | David | | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List struts- | [EMAIL
RE: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
There is a reality that new technology generally gets a honeymoon grace period during which it is generally agreed that the technology has promise but only the gurus truly understand it and everyone else simply throws buzzwords around about it and oversells/overuses it (it can solve all our problems!). Eventually, the technology is revealed for what it is (it can't solve all our problems?) and then the search is on for better understanding and the next new technologies. I think the Struts honeymoon is waning as the powers that be finally understand that Struts doesn't generally fix bad code, bad requirements, or unrealistic schedules and it definitely doesn't turn bad programmers into good ones. It is simply a good web architecture/framework product with a good name and some good resources behind it. Would I use Struts again? Probably, but I'll keep my eyes open for something better. -Original Message- From: James Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 2:50 PM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? On Sat, 2003-03-29 at 10:02, Dan Tran wrote: James Michell is out of work? Me too. How many good ppl are in the same situation these days? Well, I'm not actually out of work yet, but my current contract is almost over and I've been looking for months. As much as I love to evangelize Struts, there just aren't very many jobs out there. Sorry for breaking out of the rythm. -D - Original Message - From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:05 AM Subject: RE: Do Struts increase developer productivity? If you have a good lead person on your team, that makes all the difference. Someone has to know what they are doing, and then everyone speeds up. That is especially true if you are using the pluses of the Xtremists. There are lots of good people out there to take these positions. I understand James Mitchell is looking for work and I would hire him at the drop of a hat, if I had a position, which I don't. My sense is that there are a lot of good people that can take Struts out the door, today, anywhere. Struts is not the problem. Struts is the solution. There are other simpler frameworks, like Maverick. You can even build your own framework. Struts is a pretty good framework (I take pretty good to be very good) that you can also tweak. I personally wish that the Struts people would just take the bull by the horns and make a big shift in the framework, using all the things that have been learned since its inception. I probably am not as smart as they are in this respect. There is a pretty huge change, however, in 1.1 which is really welcomed. At 01:54 AM 3/29/03 -0600, you wrote: I think you can do the kid in a candy store thing with Struts all too easily. As with any project, make sure you set your goals in a design doc, just because struts can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. I had a project hit a wall because my boss kept asking if I could do this and that, yeah, struts can allow me to do that... Okay, why don't we add that then... -Jacob | -Original Message- | From: Navjot Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:51 PM | To: Struts Users List | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | here are my 2 cents to this discussion ;-) | | Initially, the development with struts can be slow. I won't say Struts is | complex, it is easy but to create a simple form submission you got to have | quite a number of files in set up. But slowly the things get sunk into | your | mind and then it's real fast process. | However, the speed can be increased with tools like Easystruts and IDEs | giving extensive support to Struts. | | - navjot singh | | - Original Message - | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:26 AM | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | | | I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but it | can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that | backslash? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps | developers | to fight with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from functional | prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even | more, | so we see more demand for good tools. | | Once again, I do not to offend anybody. | | Thank you for answer, | Igor. | | On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different | environments. | | Igor, | | In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to | the | learning | curve. However, this will be time well spent
Do Struts increase developer productivity?
Hello, all! Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or decrease) developer productivity. I mean, for example, using Struts can save up to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort (in terms of number of lines of code) etc. And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody helps more tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else. I understand that depends too much from specific project but I need just raff estimations (or wild speculations) Thank at advance, Igor. -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many highly paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average developer gets $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop their own framework? David From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 Hello, all! Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or decrease) developer productivity. I mean, for example, â??using Strutsâ?? can save up to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort (in terms of number of lines of code) etc. And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody helps more â?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else. I understand that depends too much from specific project â?? but I need just raff estimations (or wild speculations) Thank at advance, Igor. -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different environments. Igor, In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to the learning curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be getting maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a good chance you will be able to find talent if needed. Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory structure for your source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding functionality as you feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate users. Before implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will find that a lot of problems were already discussed and solved) Mark. David Graham wrote: I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many highly paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average developer gets $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop their own framework? David From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 Hello, all! Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or decrease) developer productivity. I mean, for example, â??using Strutsâ?? can save up to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort (in terms of number of lines of code) etc. And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody helps more â?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else.I understand that depends too much from specific project â?? but I need just raff estimations (or wild speculations) Thank at advance, Igor. -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
Oh, my company already has one (MVC framework) :-) My concern is using Struts tags force me to write too much characters into JSP, then not using Struts tags. This is, of cause, mostly about html: logic: or bean: tags. So far I have much less transparent code in JSP, bigger (in terms of number of lines/characters) and I should read a lot of books to learn use all this. I wonder where my benefits are. Another concern is I think Struts controller implementation is too primitive. In particular I miss very much of good modular structure with ability to reuse modules. And I miss good debugger interface to let me follow web application page by page, action by action, and see what going on in my application. And I hate to write classes for actions I want to use same paradigm, like for JSP save and ready to go! May be Im a beginner in struts technologies and I do not want to offend anybody. Best, Igor. On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 15:02:32 -0700, David Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many highly paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average developer gets $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop their own framework? David From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 Hello, all! Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or decrease) developer productivity. I mean, for example, ??using Struts?? can save up to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort (in terms of number of lines of code) etc. And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody helps more ?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else. I understand that depends too much from specific project ?? but I need just raff estimations (or wild speculations) Thank at advance, Igor. -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but it can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that backslash? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps developers to fight with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from functional prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even more, so we see more demand for good tools. Once again, I do not to offend anybody. Thank you for answer, Igor. On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different environments. Igor, In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to the learning curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be getting maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a good chance you will be able to find talent if needed. Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory structure for your source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding functionality as you feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate users. Before implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will find that a lot of problems were already discussed and solved) Mark. David Graham wrote: I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many highly paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average developer gets $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop their own framework? David From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 Hello, all! Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or decrease) developer productivity. I mean, for example, ??using Struts?? can save up to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort (in terms of number of lines of code) etc. And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody helps more ?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else. I understand that depends too much from specific project ?? but I need just raff estimations (or wild speculations) Thank at advance, Igor. -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
here are my 2 cents to this discussion ;-) Initially, the development with struts can be slow. I won't say Struts is complex, it is easy but to create a simple form submission you got to have quite a number of files in set up. But slowly the things get sunk into your mind and then it's real fast process. However, the speed can be increased with tools like Easystruts and IDEs giving extensive support to Struts. - navjot singh - Original Message - From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:26 AM Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but it can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that backslash? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps developers to fight with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from functional prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even more, so we see more demand for good tools. Once again, I do not to offend anybody. Thank you for answer, Igor. On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different environments. Igor, In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to the learning curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be getting maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a good chance you will be able to find talent if needed. Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory structure for your source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding functionality as you feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate users. Before implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will find that a lot of problems were already discussed and solved) Mark. David Graham wrote: I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many highly paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average developer gets $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop their own framework? David From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 Hello, all! Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or decrease) developer productivity. I mean, for example, ??using Struts?? can save up to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort (in terms of number of lines of code) etc. And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody helps more ?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else. I understand that depends too much from specific project ?? but I need just raff estimations (or wild speculations) Thank at advance, Igor. -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. Sender does not waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
I think you can do the kid in a candy store thing with Struts all too easily. As with any project, make sure you set your goals in a design doc, just because struts can do it, doesn't mean you should do it. I had a project hit a wall because my boss kept asking if I could do this and that, yeah, struts can allow me to do that... Okay, why don't we add that then... -Jacob | -Original Message- | From: Navjot Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:51 PM | To: Struts Users List | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | here are my 2 cents to this discussion ;-) | | Initially, the development with struts can be slow. I won't say Struts is | complex, it is easy but to create a simple form submission you got to have | quite a number of files in set up. But slowly the things get sunk into | your | mind and then it's real fast process. | However, the speed can be increased with tools like Easystruts and IDEs | giving extensive support to Struts. | | - navjot singh | | - Original Message - | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:26 AM | Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | | | | I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but it | can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that | backslash? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps | developers | to fight with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from functional | prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even | more, | so we see more demand for good tools. | | Once again, I do not to offend anybody. | | Thank you for answer, | Igor. | | On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | | Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different | environments. | | Igor, | | In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to | the | learning | curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be | getting | maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a | good | chance you | will be able to find talent if needed. | | Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory structure | for your | source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding | functionality as you | feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate users. | Before | implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will | find | that a lot | of problems were already discussed and solved) | | Mark. | | David Graham wrote: | | I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many | highly | paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average | developer | gets | $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000. | | Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop | their | own | framework? | | David | | From: Igor Shabalov [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List struts- | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity? | Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800 | | | Hello, all! | Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or | decrease) | developer productivity. I mean, for example, â??using Strutsâ?? can | save up | to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development effort | (in | terms of number of lines of code) etc. | And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts technolody | helps more | â?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything else. | I | understand that depends too much from specific project â?? but I | need | just | raff estimations (or wild speculations) | | Thank at advance, | Igor. | | | -- | Igor Shabalov | Director of Engineering | Exadel Inc. | http://www.exadel.com | | | - | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | | _ | MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* | http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus | | - | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | -- | NOTICE: If received in error, please destroy and notify sender. | Sender | does not | waive confidentiality or privilege, and use is prohibited. | | | | - | To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED
