RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-03 Thread Greg.Reddin

I guess this thread is mostly dead g, but I felt compelled to offer my
2c.

I recently had to do an analysis of development software I'm using for
my boss to ensure that our licenses are up to date and whatnot.  I was
blown away by the fact that there's not a single piece of software
critical to my development efforts that costs a dime.  All of the tools
and platforms I'm using for development, with the exception of Windows
2000 and Office 2000 are free.  Even the OS and Office software could be
free if I just took the time to switch.  

Granted our integration and deployment efforts are another story.  We
have to keep multiple OS's and app servers maintained to ensure our
deployment works, but when you think about some 100 - 150 developers
using a minimum $1000 - $2000 worth of software apiece that can all be
replaced with quality software that costs nothing -- that's a
significant cost savings.

Now, the other issue is the integrated drag  drop development that is
offered by MS.  I personally wouldn't mind having that although it's not
critical to me.  In fact there's nothing more frustrating than being
forced into workarounds because your tool doesn't give you low-level
access to code.  We used to do that crap in VB all the time.  I don't
know if .NET fixes that.  The integrated thing seems more than possible
for Java.  Somebody just needs to do it.  

For me, the power of choice and platform independence that is offered by
J2EE is worth the extra development effort it takes.  In fact, I don't
think we're expending any more effort with J2EE than we were with MS
development a couple of years ago.

Microsoft has always been good at taking someone else's idea and
marketing it for themselves.  I think .NET is the next iteration of that
taken from J2EE.  No doubt they'll be successful at it.  But I think and
hope that the Java community is large enough and strong enough to keep
them from dominating the market like they have in other areas.  If drag
and drop, point and click integrated development is the only advantage
they offer and it comes with the disadvantage of vendor lock-in, I'm
certainly not going to switch for that...

Greg


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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-03 Thread Elderclei R Reami

Greg,

I started this thread about a week ago, because I was in need of sharing my 
experience, and think we had a lot of 
interesting comments pro and against .Net and J2EE.

My personal view: corporate developers need to deliver production code faster and 
faster. In most occasions, these 
codes are disposable, since they are just providing a short term solution. In such 
arena, M$ is the master. That's why I 
see many companies in Brazil, that still use Access  Excel based apps. Fast and easy.

Open source software has the advantage of providing plenty of choice, however 
productivity is still not at its best level. 
Fact: it's a lot more difficult to get productive in Struts/Java/MySQL, than in 
.Net/SQL Server.

Personally, I still need something that let me get home early to see my family during 
the whole week :) 
Java/J2EE/Struts tools are getting better, but VS.Net is still the better integrated 
environment. I should mention here 
that I'm for Open Source, not against :)

Cheers,
Elder

On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:11:16 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu :

 De: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Data: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:11:16 -0500
 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Assunto: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 I guess this thread is mostly dead g, but I felt compelled to offer my
 2c.
 
 I recently had to do an analysis of development software I'm using for
 my boss to ensure that our licenses are up to date and whatnot.  I was
 blown away by the fact that there's not a single piece of software
 critical to my development efforts that costs a dime.  All of the tools
 and platforms I'm using for development, with the exception of Windows
 2000 and Office 2000 are free.  Even the OS and Office software could be
 free if I just took the time to switch.  
 
 Granted our integration and deployment efforts are another story.  We
 have to keep multiple OS's and app servers maintained to ensure our
 deployment works, but when you think about some 100 - 150 developers
 using a minimum $1000 - $2000 worth of software apiece that can all be
 replaced with quality software that costs nothing -- that's a
 significant cost savings.
 
 Now, the other issue is the integrated drag  drop development that is
 offered by MS.  I personally wouldn't mind having that although it's not
 critical to me.  In fact there's nothing more frustrating than being
 forced into workarounds because your tool doesn't give you low-level
 access to code.  We used to do that crap in VB all the time.  I don't
 know if .NET fixes that.  The integrated thing seems more than possible
 for Java.  Somebody just needs to do it.  
 
 For me, the power of choice and platform independence that is offered by
 J2EE is worth the extra development effort it takes.  In fact, I don't
 think we're expending any more effort with J2EE than we were with MS
 development a couple of years ago.
 
 Microsoft has always been good at taking someone else's idea and
 marketing it for themselves.  I think .NET is the next iteration of that
 taken from J2EE.  No doubt they'll be successful at it.  But I think and
 hope that the Java community is large enough and strong enough to keep
 them from dominating the market like they have in other areas.  If drag
 and drop, point and click integrated development is the only advantage
 they offer and it comes with the disadvantage of vendor lock-in, I'm
 certainly not going to switch for that...
 
 Greg
 
 
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Elderclei R Reami
Vertis Tecnologia
+55 11 3887-0835
www.vertisnet.com.br


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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-02 Thread Elderclei R Reami

I agree with you, Tiago. Since the tools are not well integrated, they must have one 
JVM each to run, what 
makes it very painful. I think 256MB is the least ammount of memory that makes it 
comfortable to delete. So we 
have a lot to do in terms of tools in order to make Java development more productive.

The main advantage of .Net, and mainly of Visual Studio .Net is integration. 
Everything in one workspace. In 
VS.Net, you have access to all kinds of beasts, including SQL Server, IIS Server 
Control, and so on. However, the 
most important aspect IMHO is that I don't need to suffer creating dumb HTML, so web 
development is a lot 
easier with it.

Certainly, it won't make it easier to plan security, scalability, performance, and 
won't create my application 
architecture, but VS helps a lot of repetitive tasks.

Cheers,
Elder

On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:34:55 -0300, Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu :

 De: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Data: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:34:55 -0300
 Para: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Assunto: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 
  Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for fun 
 together
 
 At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote:
 sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-)
 
 Sorry, couldn´t help it!
 
 Regards,
 
 Michael
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM
 Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 
 
   Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good
 features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development...
   I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts
 console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one.  Have to
 open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc.  my computer just
 hangs..
   My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should
 have more than the basic features.  Since that is one of the reason .NET is
 much faster to develop.  This is according to friends who work with .NET.
 
   tiago
 
 
 At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
  Hi Tiago,
  
  ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support
  for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
  integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...
  
  That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc.
  Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
  different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the
  Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get
  deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for
  mediocre Struts support. :-)
  
  Regards,
  Bill
  
  
  
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 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Elderclei R Reami
Vertis Tecnologia
+55 11 3887-0835
www.vertisnet.com.br


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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Tiago Nodari


 Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good 
features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development...
 I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts 
console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one.  Have to 
open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc.  my computer just 
hangs….
 My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should 
have more than the basic features…  Since that is one of the reason .NET is 
much faster to develop.  This is according to friends who work with .NET…

 tiago


At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Tiago,

... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support
for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...

That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc.
Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the
Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get
deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for
mediocre Struts support. :-)

Regards,
Bill



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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Michael Delamere

sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-)

Sorry, couldn´t help it!

Regards,

Michael


- Original Message -
From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments



 Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good
features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development...
 I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts
console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one.  Have to
open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc.  my computer just
hangs..
 My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should
have more than the basic features.  Since that is one of the reason .NET is
much faster to develop.  This is according to friends who work with .NET.

 tiago


At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Tiago,

... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support
for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...

That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc.
Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the
Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get
deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for
mediocre Struts support. :-)

Regards,
Bill



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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Tiago Nodari


 Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for fun 
together

At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote:
sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-)

Sorry, couldn´t help it!

Regards,

Michael


- Original Message -
From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments



  Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good
features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development...
  I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts
console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one.  Have to
open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc.  my computer just
hangs..
  My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should
have more than the basic features.  Since that is one of the reason .NET is
much faster to develop.  This is according to friends who work with .NET.

  tiago


At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
 Hi Tiago,
 
 ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support
 for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
 integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...
 
 That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc.
 Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
 different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the
 Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get
 deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for
 mediocre Struts support. :-)
 
 Regards,
 Bill
 
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Michael Delamere

h. that´s not all that much!  Mind you, I found that JBuilder was
fairly slow (especially JBuilder6 - JB4 was ok) and caused everything else
to slow down aswell.  I don´t have this problem when using Eclipse...

Regards,

Michael


- Original Message -
From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments



  Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for
fun
 together

 At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote:
 sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-)
 
 Sorry, couldn´t help it!
 
 Regards,
 
 Michael
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM
 Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 
 
   Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good
 features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed
development...
   I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts
 console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one.  Have
to
 open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc.  my computer
just
 hangs..
   My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should
 have more than the basic features.  Since that is one of the reason .NET
is
 much faster to develop.  This is according to friends who work with .NET.
 
   tiago
 
 
 At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
  Hi Tiago,
  
  ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support
  for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
  integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...
  
  That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc.
  Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
  different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the
  Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get
  deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for
  mediocre Struts support. :-)
  
  Regards,
  Bill
  
  
  
  --
  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For additional commands, e-mail:
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 --
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[OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Tiago Nodari


 Depends how much RAM you have :)
 I tried JBuilder 7 and netbeans 3.4, both are slow starting, but 
after its alright, I dont do GUI work.  Eclipse is nice also, the only 
problem I have is when you alt-tab alot, it seems to take a while going 
back to it, that doesnt happen with netbeans... plus the support for JSP in 
Eclipse is none existant, but there is a nice tomcat plugin that helps a lot...



At 09:52 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote:
h. that´s not all that much!  Mind you, I found that JBuilder was
fairly slow (especially JBuilder6 - JB4 was ok) and caused everything else
to slow down aswell.  I don´t have this problem when using Eclipse...

Regards,

Michael


- Original Message -
From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments


 
   Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for
fun
  together
 
  At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote:
  sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-)
  
  Sorry, couldn´t help it!
  
  Regards,
  
  Michael
  
  
  - Original Message -
  From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM
  Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
  
  
  
Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good
  features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed
development...
I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts
  console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one.  Have
to
  open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc.  my computer
just
  hangs..
My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should
  have more than the basic features.  Since that is one of the reason .NET
is
  much faster to develop.  This is according to friends who work with .NET.
  
tiago
  
  
  At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
   Hi Tiago,
   
   ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support
   for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
   integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...
   
   That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc.
   Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
   different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the
   Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get
   deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for
   mediocre Struts support. :-)
   
   Regards,
   Bill
   
   
   
   --
   To unsubscribe, e-mail:
  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Michael Delamere

Yes, the Tomcat-Plugin is nice
is 256 MB SDRAM enough?

:-)

Regards,

Michael

- Original Message -
From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:56 PM
Subject: [OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments



  Depends how much RAM you have :)
  I tried JBuilder 7 and netbeans 3.4, both are slow starting, but
 after its alright, I dont do GUI work.  Eclipse is nice also, the only
 problem I have is when you alt-tab alot, it seems to take a while going
 back to it, that doesnt happen with netbeans... plus the support for JSP
in
 Eclipse is none existant, but there is a nice tomcat plugin that helps a
lot...



 At 09:52 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote:
 h. that´s not all that much!  Mind you, I found that JBuilder was
 fairly slow (especially JBuilder6 - JB4 was ok) and caused everything
else
 to slow down aswell.  I don´t have this problem when using Eclipse...
 
 Regards,
 
 Michael
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:34 PM
 Subject: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 
  
Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just
for
 fun
   together
  
   At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote:
   sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-)
   
   Sorry, couldn´t help it!
   
   Regards,
   
   Michael
   
   
   - Original Message -
   From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM
   Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
   
   
   
 Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of
good
   features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed
 development...
 I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts
   console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one.
Have
 to
   open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc.  my
computer
 just
   hangs..
 My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it
should
   have more than the basic features.  Since that is one of the reason
.NET
 is
   much faster to develop.  This is according to friends who work with
.NET.
   
 tiago
   
   
   At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote:
Hi Tiago,

... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with
support
for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...

That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console,
etc.
Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of
the
Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and
get
deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around
for
mediocre Struts support. :-)

Regards,
Bill



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Re: [OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Eddie Bush

You're probably aware that I've been evaluating IDEs recently.  I 
finally wound up deciding that Netbeans 3.4 suited my needs/wants more 
closely than any other IDE.  Yes, you're kind of locked in to whatever 
Tomcat installation they packaged with it, but, other than that, it's 
really nice.  That, plus a locally (in my user directory) installed TC 
4.1.19 (the beta2) with a browser (Mozilla kicks!) having a tab opened 
to the admin and a tab opened to the manager works super.  I ... would 
like to see better support for other Tomcat versions in Netbeans, but, 
overall, I find it very satisfactory.

One of the biggest things I disliked was the fact that you can't specify 
a heirarchy as a source heirarchy - and can't specify where it would 
compile to.  I get around this using a (very) simple ant script. 
 Overall, I really think Netbeans is the ideal web-app IDE.  Yes, it's 
missing some nice features of the other IDEs, but ... it doesn't bother 
me too bad.  I may try Sun ONE Studio again once they've got Netbeans 
3.4 under it ... but the previous version (bundled with JDK 1.4) was an 
absolute beast - and had many problems on my machine.

Regards,

Eddie

Michael Delamere wrote:

Yes, the Tomcat-Plugin is nice
is 256 MB SDRAM enough?

:-)

Regards,

Michael




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AW: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-09-01 Thread Rademacher Tobias

Hi Vic,

Also, C# is a ECMA standard and here is the open source version:
http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/07/22/020722hnoreilly.xml

..and currently it does not work on Linux, SunOS, HPUX and Mac.
Java is desinged to run on a huge portion of OS and so it's the best
joice if you want deal with a hetrogene network _now_.

And most important, MS is MUCH cheaper than BEA or IBM J2EE servers.
(Sun does not care about this. Sun is interested in selling $500,000
SlowLaris machines that are slower sometimes than $2,000 Linux machines.
See
tpc.org.)

...than choose JBoss. It's really a good J2EE-Appserver. :-)

a. Worst part of J2EE is EJB, not Java Server Faces. Look at M$ ADO, it is
so much faster and easier.

Much poeple don't like EJB because auf EnityBeans and the persistence
mechanism.
But EJB CMP 2.0 Entites are straightforward if you use XDoclet. What I
really like
are MessageDrivenBeans. Is there anything comparable in .NET Components
Model?

EJB = Enytity + Session + MDB's

I aggree with you that M$ is good a simplifying and cutting down complexity.
But whenever I remember the completly odd desing of VB 6.x I can't believe
that there tools genereate good code. 

At the end .NET is just a copy of Java (J2SE, J2ME and J2EE) with a couple
of
improvements and desing flaws (why no generics, why pointers and unsafe
blocks?, single plattforms are 
eager to get infected especially if M$ don't care about security).

It would be better if M$ concrentrate on Intential Programming. Althoug
object orientation is
good it's just like a gard - you have take care of it to get a japanies
garden of desing.
So generative programming - intentional or ascpet orientet - would be a step
forward in software
development.

At the end I think that OpenSource makes Java valuable and Java is strong
through its comunity 
process althoug such comunities tend to became debatty clubs with no
production I guess the .NET 
hype will prevent this :).

Regards
Toby

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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-31 Thread Vic
e config files. I saw one
(can't recall the name) that was commercial and offered page flow mgmt
as well - nice addition, but still not where I want to be.

My preferred way of working would be simliar to the old days of
NetDynamics (before Sun bought them and closed them up - yeah, yeah,
became part of iPlanet - whatever!). Define your project, define your
datasource(s), define your pages, define your page fields, bind the data
fields from your sources to your page fields. Its sort of like
Powerbuilder or M$ tools, but would use the appropriate design patterns.
NetD wrote their own app server, since j2ee wasn't out until they were
bought by Sun, and servlets were just something cute. Toward the end,
they started to support EJB 1.0 and even allowed your page fields to
bind to EJB methods (!) rather than to your datasource - viola! Instant
data binding to your business methods. They offered page templates
(before JSP) with the option of diving into the action and page code to
fix things, and offered many ways for most sites (esp intranets that
need to publish data quickly) to get going very fast.

Now, can this fix everything? No! Can this get rid of your expense
developers? No! There are still hard problems to solve, and right/wrong
ways to do things.. Can this help your developers spend less time
messing with config files, page workflows (wizards, etc), and simple
data binding tasks and more time working on the application at hand? I
believe so..

Oh, and if there is someone out there who is writing, has written, or
intends to write something like this - contact me, I really would like
to help or be a beta tester!

Enjoy the weekend!
James

 -Original Message-
 From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments


 Hi,

 I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a
 great experience on how to do and not to do things. This
 list has been of great help, as well.

 Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me,
 because it's just a view someone that needs
 to be productive.

 I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework
 and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very
 much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter
 of point and click. First impression: that's what I
 need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill'
 cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls,
 integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like
 Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn
 and use.

 About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools,
 but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts
 has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to
 be made easier to use, what means: GUI
 development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts,
 StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none
 of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are
 more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet.

 Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize:
 M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than
 Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB
 app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I
 mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach
 is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$
 approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.

 I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the
 tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make
 programming UI interface much easier than Struts.

 Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get
 home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and
 online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :)

 Cheers,
 Elderclei R Reami
 Vertis Tecnologia
 +55 11 3887-0835
 www.vertisnet.com.br


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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-31 Thread James Higginbotham

 1. NetDynamics is alive and well, see: 
 http://developer.iplanet.com/tech/appserver/framework/index.jsp
 They have a nice sample app as well.
 But since I Planet has a bad rap, so does the Sun framework.

Ummm... What am I missing? Sounds like they are using Jato instead of
Struts, but I'm not seeing a GUI environment, just a really crude
NetBeans integration... Did I miss a link or something? 
 
 My conclusion: If .NET or C# or anything becomes more 
 prodctive than Struts with DAO, I will switch. I chase 
 profit, and profit to me is showing clients how they can 
 develop fast and productive for very low cost, and operate 
 high volume at low cost. Open Source beats .NET. However is 
 there is more high end consulting in .NET... I have to switch.
 
 

Interesting comments. As for this one above - I agree. You have to go
where the money is when you are consulting. I co-founded a Java-focused
consulting company and have since pursued other things, but have noticed
that they are starting to do .Net training (internal and external) just
as we did Java training back in '97, '98 when Java 1.0 and 1.1 was
starting to gain favor. It's the only smart thing to do. Hope all goes
well with your business.. 

Best Regards,
James

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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-31 Thread V. Cekvenich


James Higginbotham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message
[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
 1. NetDynamics is alive and well, see:
 http://developer.iplanet.com/tech/appserver/framework/index.jsp
 They have a nice sample app as well.
 But since I Planet has a bad rap, so does the Sun framework.

Ummm... What am I missing? Sounds like they are using Jato instead of
Struts, but I'm not seeing a GUI environment, just a really crude
NetBeans integration... Did I miss a link or something?

Vic:
James, I Think NetDynamics became Jato.
A previous poster mentioned NetD in the thread, so I just said here is where
it lives.

V.





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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-31 Thread Tiago Nodari


The thing with .NET and Microsoft is that you normally have little choice 
on how to do things; you have all in one IDE, which is something I wish we 
had.  As with J2EE you have tons of choices, is that good or 
bad?  Sometimes I think its what makes developing in java a pain, you have 
tons of IDEs, but none are complete, instead of working together we have 
tons of different open source tools for the same purpose, and each one 
lacks something the other has, which makes me wonder why dont they just 
join forces and create something with the best of the two solutions, and I 
come up with the answer that this is a democracy, and like a democracy, all 
we do is argue, as for .NET you get what they ship out :)  J2EE containers 
have been fighting against each other while .NET has been growing its 
impossible that they didnt see that.

How many frameworks like struts are there?(no need to answer, I now there 
are tons) And now we have JSF, from which I have seen overlaps with Struts, 
and yet its different, here is my point why not use a framework that is 
already out, to make life easier for developers.  The constant changes in 
Java are a real pain, when you finally get the hang of something they 
something comes out that is sometimes totally different.  I like new 
things, but there has to be a limit, we have JSP 2, JSTL, JSF, and etc etc 
etc.  It seems that we need to spend more time finding out what is new and 
out there and less time developing.
And we don’t have a all-in-one-to-everything IDE, we have to hope some 
really nice developer takes the time to develop a plug-in, I don’t 
understand why IDE like Jbuilder don’t come with support for frameworks 
like struts.
In version 8 or 9  maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 
will be out….

Pls don’t flame me :) just my opinion, I know a lot ppl put really hard 
work into Struts, JSF, JSTL, JSP, J2EE and etc.

tiago

  -Original Message-
  From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 
  Hi,
 
  I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a
  great experience on how to do and not to do things. This
  list has been of great help, as well.
 
  Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me,
  because it's just a view someone that needs
  to be productive.
 
  I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework
  and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very
  much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter
  of point and click. First impression: that's what I
  need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill'
  cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls,
  integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like
  Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn
  and use.
 
  About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools,
  but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts
  has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to
  be made easier to use, what means: GUI
  development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts,
  StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none
  of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are
  more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet.
 
  Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize:
  M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than
  Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB
  app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I
  mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach
  is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$
  approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.
 
  I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the
  tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make
  programming UI interface much easier than Struts.
 
  Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get
  home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and
  online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :)
 
  Cheers,
  Elderclei R Reami
  Vertis Tecnologia
  +55 11 3887-0835
  www.vertisnet.com.br
 
 
  --
  To unsubscribe, e-mail:
  mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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  additional commands,
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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-31 Thread Bill Willis

Hi Tiago,

... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support
for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be
integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out...

That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc.
Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion
different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the
Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get
deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for
mediocre Struts support. :-)

Regards,
Bill



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Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-30 Thread Elderclei R Reami

Hi,

I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to 
do and not to do things. This 
list has been of great help, as well.

Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view 
someone that needs 
to be productive.

I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. 
Wonderful experience, very very 
much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. 
First impression: that's what I 
need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components 
do keep state during calls, 
integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi 
traditional dev. Really easy to learn 
and use.

About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of 
pure JSP development. Struts 
has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, 
what means: GUI 
development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, 
StrutsConsole - great tools, but none 
of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need 
a lot of work yet.

Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI 
development a lot easier than 
Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java 
app, knows what I 
mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and 
conceptually beautiful. M$ 
approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.

I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I 
understand it, JSF does not make 
programming UI interface much easier than Struts.

Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 
4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and 
online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :)

Cheers,
Elderclei R Reami
Vertis Tecnologia
+55 11 3887-0835
www.vertisnet.com.br


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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-30 Thread Robert J. Sanford, Jr.

In regards to your comments that Microsoft makes your life easier I have to
generally agree. They learned a lot from the PowerBuilder and Borland people
for their Visual C++ and Visual Basic applications. And they have continued
to evolve that into more than just writing standalone apps - Microsoft ties
application development together so that having their stuff work with their
stuff is very easy.

In my mind the issue is one of incentive - Microsoft has a very large
incentive to make their stuff work very well with their stuff because sales
of one bit of their stuff leads to sales of other bits of their stuff. Most
of the work in the OpenSource world is directed at scratching an itch
which is generally not an itch of integration.

In order to win over the hearts and minds of Microsoft's end users the
OpenSource community will have to develop an office suite that is just as
integrated as Office. It doesn't matter if it is just as good, it has to
behave the same way. You have to be able to drag-and-drop a spreadsheet into
a memo to display the quarterly results in a pie chart and have it
automatically emailed to a distribution list every month with the pie chart
automatically updated every month based on the contents of the sales
database. And, it has to be readable without extra effort by everyone that
did NOT convert away from MS Office. I think that I see progress is being
made on this front, especially with OpenOffice, and I am grateful.

In order to win over the hearts and minds of Microsoft's developers the
OpenSource community will have to develop an IDE that will integrate
component development with desktop application development and web-based
application development using some fancy drag-and-drop GUI. What I see here
is a decent fragmentation of the market because every developer has their
own idea of what is good and is willing to go off and write their own. That
is both the strength and the weakness of the OpenSource development process.
Microsoft wins developers because they have one IDE that can do _everything_
you need to do to develop an app on any Microsoft platform. That isn't here
yet for OpenSource.

Personally, I've moved over to Java and the use of OpenSource tools because
of the options they provide to me. But I know waaay too many developers who
won't move over because there is no single tool to choose that they can get
all of their work done with.

rjsjr

 Hi,

 I've just finished my first Struts project, and
 it's been a great experience on how to do and
 not to do things. This list has been of great
 help, as well.

 Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please,
 don't flame me, because it's just a view
 someone that needs to be productive.

 I've developed a project some time ago using
 .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful
 experience, very very much productive. Creation
 of a web interface is just a matter of point and
 click. First impression: that's what I need for
 mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill'
 cycles. Graphical components do keep state
 during calls, integration is event-oriented,
 which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi
 traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use.

 About Struts: hard to use, lack of good
 development tools, but years light ahead of pure
 JSP development. Struts has all the chances of
 being the way to go. It just needs to be made
 easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've
 seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts,
 StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but
 none of them really make GUI+Struts integration
 easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot
 of work yet.

 Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to
 recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot
 easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If
 you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java
 app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach
 is make it easy, our approach is make it generic,
 and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell
 it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.

 I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen
 the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF
 does not make programming UI interface much easier
 than Struts.

 Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and
 want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of
 philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY,
 but... :)

 Cheers,
 Elderclei R Reami
 Vertis Tecnologia
 +55 11 3887-0835
 www.vertisnet.com.br


 --
 To unsubscribe, e-mail:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-30 Thread Dan Cancro

I agree.  I'm really glad someone finally brought this up.  Microsoft
products make development a lot easier.  All religious bias aside, I think
most opensource advocates are pragmatically banking on opensource eventually
becoming as easy to use as Microsoft stuff, but without the downsides of
Microsoft software, like cost and vendor lock-in for example.  Opensource
products have just focused on functionality first, and ease of use second.
I think the ease of use part won't really take off until a victor emerges
from the functionality phase, and there are still a bunch of contenders
competing for that title.  Or maybe I'm wrong and folks just think GUI tools
for building GUI apps are for sissies.

 -Original Message-
 From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:36 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 
 Hi,
 
 I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a 
 great experience on how to do and not to do things. This 
 list has been of great help, as well.
 
 Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, 
 because it's just a view someone that needs 
 to be productive.
 
 I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework 
 and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very 
 much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter 
 of point and click. First impression: that's what I 
 need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' 
 cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, 
 integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like 
 Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn 
 and use.
 
 About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, 
 but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts 
 has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to 
 be made easier to use, what means: GUI 
 development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, 
 StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none 
 of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are 
 more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet.
 
 Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: 
 M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than 
 Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB 
 app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I 
 mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach 
 is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ 
 approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.
 
 I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the 
 tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make 
 programming UI interface much easier than Struts.
 
 Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get 
 home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and 
 online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :)
 
 Cheers,
 Elderclei R Reami
 Vertis Tecnologia
 +55 11 3887-0835
 www.vertisnet.com.br
 
 
 --
 To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: 
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-30 Thread Joe Barefoot

No flames, but here's my .02:  
 
Sure, some M$ development tools shorten the cycle for creating GUI widgets, and 
apparently web interfaces as well according to the email below.  But here's my 
(different) experience with Visual Studio and MFC whilst creating a windows 
application a couple of years ago:  There's a finite number of ways to create any 
particular GUI, and you better make sure you know what the 'right' way is, because the 
development environment doesn't give a damn how you want to piece the GUI framework 
together, and is not at all forgiving.  Also, if you make a mistake somewhere along 
the way in your wizard or visual dev. environment, and want to make a spot manual 
change, good luck.  Do it through the interface or suffer the consequences.  Finally, 
the MFC classes' API just plain sucks, IMHO.  It may have improved lately, and I know 
.NET has better interfaces, but frankly debugging my MFC app. was a real pain in part 
because the APIs were not intuitive, and I found myself reading usage docs for the 
most trivial of function calls.  I have rarely found this to be the case with Java's 
core APIs, J2EE, or Jakarta's projects.  That experience has jaded me quite a bit 
towards M$ development, I'm afraid.
 
If you want to create a nice desktop app. quickly, sure, go with Visual Studio.  For 
enterprise development, I just don't endorse M$'s one-size-fits-all approach.  I'd 
much rather have choices. :)
 
peace,
Joe

-Original Message- 
From: Dan Cancro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Fri 8/30/2002 10:37 AM 
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' 
Cc: 
Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments



I agree.  I'm really glad someone finally brought this up.  Microsoft
products make development a lot easier.  All religious bias aside, I think
most opensource advocates are pragmatically banking on opensource eventually
becoming as easy to use as Microsoft stuff, but without the downsides of
Microsoft software, like cost and vendor lock-in for example.  Opensource
products have just focused on functionality first, and ease of use second.
I think the ease of use part won't really take off until a victor emerges
from the functionality phase, and there are still a bunch of contenders
competing for that title.  Or maybe I'm wrong and folks just think GUI tools
for building GUI apps are for sissies.

 -Original Message-
 From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:36 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments


 Hi,

 I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a
 great experience on how to do and not to do things. This
 list has been of great help, as well.

 Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me,
 because it's just a view someone that needs
 to be productive.

 I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework
 and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very
 much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter
 of point and click. First impression: that's what I
 need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill'
 cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls,
 integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like
 Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn
 and use.

 About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools,
 but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts
 has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to
 be made easier to use, what means: GUI
 development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts,
 StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none
 of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are
 more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet.

 Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize:
 M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than
 Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB
 app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I
 mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach
 is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$
 approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.

 I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the
 tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make
 programming UI interface much easier than Struts.

 Any comments? The matter is: I

RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-30 Thread James Higginbotham

I have to agree with your assessment: Struts is a fabulous framework,
and now we need a real application development environment to sit on top
of it. Kudos to all those writing graphical interfaces to struts, but
most of them are just GUI panels on top of the config files. I saw one
(can't recall the name) that was commercial and offered page flow mgmt
as well - nice addition, but still not where I want to be. 

My preferred way of working would be simliar to the old days of
NetDynamics (before Sun bought them and closed them up - yeah, yeah,
became part of iPlanet - whatever!). Define your project, define your
datasource(s), define your pages, define your page fields, bind the data
fields from your sources to your page fields. Its sort of like
Powerbuilder or M$ tools, but would use the appropriate design patterns.
NetD wrote their own app server, since j2ee wasn't out until they were
bought by Sun, and servlets were just something cute. Toward the end,
they started to support EJB 1.0 and even allowed your page fields to
bind to EJB methods (!) rather than to your datasource - viola! Instant
data binding to your business methods. They offered page templates
(before JSP) with the option of diving into the action and page code to
fix things, and offered many ways for most sites (esp intranets that
need to publish data quickly) to get going very fast. 

Now, can this fix everything? No! Can this get rid of your expense
developers? No! There are still hard problems to solve, and right/wrong
ways to do things.. Can this help your developers spend less time
messing with config files, page workflows (wizards, etc), and simple
data binding tasks and more time working on the application at hand? I
believe so.. 

Oh, and if there is someone out there who is writing, has written, or
intends to write something like this - contact me, I really would like
to help or be a beta tester!

Enjoy the weekend!
James

 -Original Message-
 From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
 Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 
 Hi,
 
 I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a 
 great experience on how to do and not to do things. This 
 list has been of great help, as well.
 
 Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, 
 because it's just a view someone that needs 
 to be productive.
 
 I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework 
 and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very 
 much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter 
 of point and click. First impression: that's what I 
 need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' 
 cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, 
 integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like 
 Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn 
 and use.
 
 About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, 
 but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts 
 has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to 
 be made easier to use, what means: GUI 
 development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, 
 StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none 
 of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are 
 more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet.
 
 Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: 
 M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than 
 Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB 
 app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I 
 mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach 
 is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ 
 approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.
 
 I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the 
 tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make 
 programming UI interface much easier than Struts.
 
 Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get 
 home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and 
 online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :)
 
 Cheers,
 Elderclei R Reami
 Vertis Tecnologia
 +55 11 3887-0835
 www.vertisnet.com.br
 
 
 --
 To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
 mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For 
 additional commands, 
 e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 

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Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-30 Thread David Geary

Elderclei R Reami wrote:

Hi,

Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI 
development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a 
VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean.

FWIW, I agree that .NET is a great deal easier to use than any open 
source J2EE combo pack currently available. Last fall, I was invited to 
a 3-day, all expenses paid workshop that introduced .NET to Java 
authors, (since when would Sun do anything like that for MS authors?) 
and I was blown away by the simplicity and elegance of .NET.

Also, I noticed that Scott McNealy himself made a comment in a recent 
interview to the effect that whoever advertises the most wins. I'm an 
avid reader of the New York Times and I've noticed numerous full-page 
.NET advertisements in that newspaper over the past few months and zero 
adds for Java or J2EE. One degree of freedom. Indeed.

Finally, as a Java author, I've watched in abject horror as Java book 
sales have plummeted over the past year and .NET books have gradually 
gained ground. Watch out, J2EE, the .NET juggernaut is at your back and 
coming up fast.

I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I 
understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts.

Actually, it's much worse than that. After reading through the JSF 
tutorial, JSF makes developing UIs *more difficult* than Struts. As it's 
currently spec'd, JSF can't hold a candle to Struts, even though it's 
obviously a blatant,  inelegant Struts imitation. Want to use form beans 
with JSF? You've got to create them yourself with jsp:useBean. Want 
validation with JSF? Get ready to write some Java code and plug it into 
the framework. All that for what -- 2 years of development (not to 
mention a year late)?

I just sent feedback to the JSF expert group stating my concerns with 
JSF and I suggest that others on this mailing list read the tutorial and 
spec and do the same.

In the spirit of the Friday biere messages: c'est dommage!


david



Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 
4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and 
online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :)

Cheers,
Elderclei R Reami
Vertis Tecnologia
+55 11 3887-0835
www.vertisnet.com.br


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For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments

2002-08-30 Thread Elderclei R Reami

Hi James,

I guess you were talking about Avalon, which is a nice tool to model functional flow, 
but it's not exactly what we 
want.

Hope we have easier life soon, or M$ will surely dominate other development niche. 
People using WSAD says it's 
extremely slow, but I've never used it.

Regards,
Elder
PS: Now it's time for [Beer]

On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:35:52 -0500, James Higginbotham 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu :

 De: James Higginbotham [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Data: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:35:52 -0500
 Para: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Assunto: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
 
 I have to agree with your assessment: Struts is a fabulous framework,
 and now we need a real application development environment to sit on top
 of it. Kudos to all those writing graphical interfaces to struts, but
 most of them are just GUI panels on top of the config files. I saw one
 (can't recall the name) that was commercial and offered page flow mgmt
 as well - nice addition, but still not where I want to be. 
 
 My preferred way of working would be simliar to the old days of
 NetDynamics (before Sun bought them and closed them up - yeah, yeah,
 became part of iPlanet - whatever!). Define your project, define your
 datasource(s), define your pages, define your page fields, bind the data
 fields from your sources to your page fields. Its sort of like
 Powerbuilder or M$ tools, but would use the appropriate design patterns.
 NetD wrote their own app server, since j2ee wasn't out until they were
 bought by Sun, and servlets were just something cute. Toward the end,
 they started to support EJB 1.0 and even allowed your page fields to
 bind to EJB methods (!) rather than to your datasource - viola! Instant
 data binding to your business methods. They offered page templates
 (before JSP) with the option of diving into the action and page code to
 fix things, and offered many ways for most sites (esp intranets that
 need to publish data quickly) to get going very fast. 
 
 Now, can this fix everything? No! Can this get rid of your expense
 developers? No! There are still hard problems to solve, and right/wrong
 ways to do things.. Can this help your developers spend less time
 messing with config files, page workflows (wizards, etc), and simple
 data binding tasks and more time working on the application at hand? I
 believe so.. 
 
 Oh, and if there is someone out there who is writing, has written, or
 intends to write something like this - contact me, I really would like
 to help or be a beta tester!
 
 Enjoy the weekend!
 James
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
  Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
  
  
  Hi,
  
  I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a 
  great experience on how to do and not to do things. This 
  list has been of great help, as well.
  
  Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, 
  because it's just a view someone that needs 
  to be productive.
  
  I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework 
  and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very 
  much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter 
  of point and click. First impression: that's what I 
  need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' 
  cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, 
  integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like 
  Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn 
  and use.
  
  About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, 
  but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts 
  has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to 
  be made easier to use, what means: GUI 
  development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, 
  StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none 
  of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are 
  more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet.
  
  Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: 
  M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than 
  Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB 
  app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I 
  mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach 
  is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ 
  approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit.
  
  I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the 
  tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make 
  programming UI interface much easier than Struts.
  
  Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get 
  home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and 
  online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :)
  
  Cheers,
  Elderclei R Reami
  Vertis Tecnologia
  +55 11 3887-0835
  www.vertisnet.com.br
  
  
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  To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
  mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For 
  additional