RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
I guess this thread is mostly dead g, but I felt compelled to offer my 2c. I recently had to do an analysis of development software I'm using for my boss to ensure that our licenses are up to date and whatnot. I was blown away by the fact that there's not a single piece of software critical to my development efforts that costs a dime. All of the tools and platforms I'm using for development, with the exception of Windows 2000 and Office 2000 are free. Even the OS and Office software could be free if I just took the time to switch. Granted our integration and deployment efforts are another story. We have to keep multiple OS's and app servers maintained to ensure our deployment works, but when you think about some 100 - 150 developers using a minimum $1000 - $2000 worth of software apiece that can all be replaced with quality software that costs nothing -- that's a significant cost savings. Now, the other issue is the integrated drag drop development that is offered by MS. I personally wouldn't mind having that although it's not critical to me. In fact there's nothing more frustrating than being forced into workarounds because your tool doesn't give you low-level access to code. We used to do that crap in VB all the time. I don't know if .NET fixes that. The integrated thing seems more than possible for Java. Somebody just needs to do it. For me, the power of choice and platform independence that is offered by J2EE is worth the extra development effort it takes. In fact, I don't think we're expending any more effort with J2EE than we were with MS development a couple of years ago. Microsoft has always been good at taking someone else's idea and marketing it for themselves. I think .NET is the next iteration of that taken from J2EE. No doubt they'll be successful at it. But I think and hope that the Java community is large enough and strong enough to keep them from dominating the market like they have in other areas. If drag and drop, point and click integrated development is the only advantage they offer and it comes with the disadvantage of vendor lock-in, I'm certainly not going to switch for that... Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Greg, I started this thread about a week ago, because I was in need of sharing my experience, and think we had a lot of interesting comments pro and against .Net and J2EE. My personal view: corporate developers need to deliver production code faster and faster. In most occasions, these codes are disposable, since they are just providing a short term solution. In such arena, M$ is the master. That's why I see many companies in Brazil, that still use Access Excel based apps. Fast and easy. Open source software has the advantage of providing plenty of choice, however productivity is still not at its best level. Fact: it's a lot more difficult to get productive in Struts/Java/MySQL, than in .Net/SQL Server. Personally, I still need something that let me get home early to see my family during the whole week :) Java/J2EE/Struts tools are getting better, but VS.Net is still the better integrated environment. I should mention here that I'm for Open Source, not against :) Cheers, Elder On Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:11:16 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu : De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Data: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:11:16 -0500 Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assunto: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments I guess this thread is mostly dead g, but I felt compelled to offer my 2c. I recently had to do an analysis of development software I'm using for my boss to ensure that our licenses are up to date and whatnot. I was blown away by the fact that there's not a single piece of software critical to my development efforts that costs a dime. All of the tools and platforms I'm using for development, with the exception of Windows 2000 and Office 2000 are free. Even the OS and Office software could be free if I just took the time to switch. Granted our integration and deployment efforts are another story. We have to keep multiple OS's and app servers maintained to ensure our deployment works, but when you think about some 100 - 150 developers using a minimum $1000 - $2000 worth of software apiece that can all be replaced with quality software that costs nothing -- that's a significant cost savings. Now, the other issue is the integrated drag drop development that is offered by MS. I personally wouldn't mind having that although it's not critical to me. In fact there's nothing more frustrating than being forced into workarounds because your tool doesn't give you low-level access to code. We used to do that crap in VB all the time. I don't know if .NET fixes that. The integrated thing seems more than possible for Java. Somebody just needs to do it. For me, the power of choice and platform independence that is offered by J2EE is worth the extra development effort it takes. In fact, I don't think we're expending any more effort with J2EE than we were with MS development a couple of years ago. Microsoft has always been good at taking someone else's idea and marketing it for themselves. I think .NET is the next iteration of that taken from J2EE. No doubt they'll be successful at it. But I think and hope that the Java community is large enough and strong enough to keep them from dominating the market like they have in other areas. If drag and drop, point and click integrated development is the only advantage they offer and it comes with the disadvantage of vendor lock-in, I'm certainly not going to switch for that... Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
I agree with you, Tiago. Since the tools are not well integrated, they must have one JVM each to run, what makes it very painful. I think 256MB is the least ammount of memory that makes it comfortable to delete. So we have a lot to do in terms of tools in order to make Java development more productive. The main advantage of .Net, and mainly of Visual Studio .Net is integration. Everything in one workspace. In VS.Net, you have access to all kinds of beasts, including SQL Server, IIS Server Control, and so on. However, the most important aspect IMHO is that I don't need to suffer creating dumb HTML, so web development is a lot easier with it. Certainly, it won't make it easier to plan security, scalability, performance, and won't create my application architecture, but VS helps a lot of repetitive tasks. Cheers, Elder On Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:34:55 -0300, Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu : De: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] Data: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 16:34:55 -0300 Para: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assunto: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for fun together At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-) Sorry, couldn´t help it! Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development... I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one. Have to open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc. my computer just hangs.. My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should have more than the basic features. Since that is one of the reason .NET is much faster to develop. This is according to friends who work with .NET. tiago At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development... I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one. Have to open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc. my computer just hangs . My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should have more than the basic features Since that is one of the reason .NET is much faster to develop. This is according to friends who work with .NET tiago At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-) Sorry, couldn´t help it! Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development... I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one. Have to open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc. my computer just hangs.. My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should have more than the basic features. Since that is one of the reason .NET is much faster to develop. This is according to friends who work with .NET. tiago At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for fun together At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-) Sorry, couldn´t help it! Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development... I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one. Have to open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc. my computer just hangs.. My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should have more than the basic features. Since that is one of the reason .NET is much faster to develop. This is according to friends who work with .NET. tiago At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
h. that´s not all that much! Mind you, I found that JBuilder was fairly slow (especially JBuilder6 - JB4 was ok) and caused everything else to slow down aswell. I don´t have this problem when using Eclipse... Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for fun together At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-) Sorry, couldn´t help it! Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development... I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one. Have to open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc. my computer just hangs.. My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should have more than the basic features. Since that is one of the reason .NET is much faster to develop. This is according to friends who work with .NET. tiago At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Depends how much RAM you have :) I tried JBuilder 7 and netbeans 3.4, both are slow starting, but after its alright, I dont do GUI work. Eclipse is nice also, the only problem I have is when you alt-tab alot, it seems to take a while going back to it, that doesnt happen with netbeans... plus the support for JSP in Eclipse is none existant, but there is a nice tomcat plugin that helps a lot... At 09:52 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: h. that´s not all that much! Mind you, I found that JBuilder was fairly slow (especially JBuilder6 - JB4 was ok) and caused everything else to slow down aswell. I don´t have this problem when using Eclipse... Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for fun together At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-) Sorry, couldn´t help it! Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development... I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one. Have to open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc. my computer just hangs.. My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should have more than the basic features. Since that is one of the reason .NET is much faster to develop. This is according to friends who work with .NET. tiago At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Yes, the Tomcat-Plugin is nice is 256 MB SDRAM enough? :-) Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:56 PM Subject: [OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Depends how much RAM you have :) I tried JBuilder 7 and netbeans 3.4, both are slow starting, but after its alright, I dont do GUI work. Eclipse is nice also, the only problem I have is when you alt-tab alot, it seems to take a while going back to it, that doesnt happen with netbeans... plus the support for JSP in Eclipse is none existant, but there is a nice tomcat plugin that helps a lot... At 09:52 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: h. that´s not all that much! Mind you, I found that JBuilder was fairly slow (especially JBuilder6 - JB4 was ok) and caused everything else to slow down aswell. I don´t have this problem when using Eclipse... Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Try opening JBuilder(or netbeans), tomcat, mysql, and just for fun together At 09:30 PM 9/1/2002 +0200, you wrote: sometimes you just need JBuilder open for the PC to hang :-) Sorry, couldn´t help it! Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Tiago Nodari [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 9:21 PM Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Bill, that is my point, with Visual Studio you get tons of good features in one IDE, which from my point of view helps speed development... I know what is out there, i have netbeans, eclipse, struts console, etc etc etc in my computer, I would rather have just one. Have to open various tools made in java, tomcat, browser and etc. my computer just hangs.. My point is if you buy an IDE like JBuilder the least it should have more than the basic features. Since that is one of the reason .NET is much faster to develop. This is according to friends who work with .NET. tiago At 09:38 PM 8/31/2002 -0400, you wrote: Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
You're probably aware that I've been evaluating IDEs recently. I finally wound up deciding that Netbeans 3.4 suited my needs/wants more closely than any other IDE. Yes, you're kind of locked in to whatever Tomcat installation they packaged with it, but, other than that, it's really nice. That, plus a locally (in my user directory) installed TC 4.1.19 (the beta2) with a browser (Mozilla kicks!) having a tab opened to the admin and a tab opened to the manager works super. I ... would like to see better support for other Tomcat versions in Netbeans, but, overall, I find it very satisfactory. One of the biggest things I disliked was the fact that you can't specify a heirarchy as a source heirarchy - and can't specify where it would compile to. I get around this using a (very) simple ant script. Overall, I really think Netbeans is the ideal web-app IDE. Yes, it's missing some nice features of the other IDEs, but ... it doesn't bother me too bad. I may try Sun ONE Studio again once they've got Netbeans 3.4 under it ... but the previous version (bundled with JDK 1.4) was an absolute beast - and had many problems on my machine. Regards, Eddie Michael Delamere wrote: Yes, the Tomcat-Plugin is nice is 256 MB SDRAM enough? :-) Regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AW: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Hi Vic, Also, C# is a ECMA standard and here is the open source version: http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/07/22/020722hnoreilly.xml ..and currently it does not work on Linux, SunOS, HPUX and Mac. Java is desinged to run on a huge portion of OS and so it's the best joice if you want deal with a hetrogene network _now_. And most important, MS is MUCH cheaper than BEA or IBM J2EE servers. (Sun does not care about this. Sun is interested in selling $500,000 SlowLaris machines that are slower sometimes than $2,000 Linux machines. See tpc.org.) ...than choose JBoss. It's really a good J2EE-Appserver. :-) a. Worst part of J2EE is EJB, not Java Server Faces. Look at M$ ADO, it is so much faster and easier. Much poeple don't like EJB because auf EnityBeans and the persistence mechanism. But EJB CMP 2.0 Entites are straightforward if you use XDoclet. What I really like are MessageDrivenBeans. Is there anything comparable in .NET Components Model? EJB = Enytity + Session + MDB's I aggree with you that M$ is good a simplifying and cutting down complexity. But whenever I remember the completly odd desing of VB 6.x I can't believe that there tools genereate good code. At the end .NET is just a copy of Java (J2SE, J2ME and J2EE) with a couple of improvements and desing flaws (why no generics, why pointers and unsafe blocks?, single plattforms are eager to get infected especially if M$ don't care about security). It would be better if M$ concrentrate on Intential Programming. Althoug object orientation is good it's just like a gard - you have take care of it to get a japanies garden of desing. So generative programming - intentional or ascpet orientet - would be a step forward in software development. At the end I think that OpenSource makes Java valuable and Java is strong through its comunity process althoug such comunities tend to became debatty clubs with no production I guess the .NET hype will prevent this :). Regards Toby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
e config files. I saw one (can't recall the name) that was commercial and offered page flow mgmt as well - nice addition, but still not where I want to be. My preferred way of working would be simliar to the old days of NetDynamics (before Sun bought them and closed them up - yeah, yeah, became part of iPlanet - whatever!). Define your project, define your datasource(s), define your pages, define your page fields, bind the data fields from your sources to your page fields. Its sort of like Powerbuilder or M$ tools, but would use the appropriate design patterns. NetD wrote their own app server, since j2ee wasn't out until they were bought by Sun, and servlets were just something cute. Toward the end, they started to support EJB 1.0 and even allowed your page fields to bind to EJB methods (!) rather than to your datasource - viola! Instant data binding to your business methods. They offered page templates (before JSP) with the option of diving into the action and page code to fix things, and offered many ways for most sites (esp intranets that need to publish data quickly) to get going very fast. Now, can this fix everything? No! Can this get rid of your expense developers? No! There are still hard problems to solve, and right/wrong ways to do things.. Can this help your developers spend less time messing with config files, page workflows (wizards, etc), and simple data binding tasks and more time working on the application at hand? I believe so.. Oh, and if there is someone out there who is writing, has written, or intends to write something like this - contact me, I really would like to help or be a beta tester! Enjoy the weekend! James -Original Message- From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
1. NetDynamics is alive and well, see: http://developer.iplanet.com/tech/appserver/framework/index.jsp They have a nice sample app as well. But since I Planet has a bad rap, so does the Sun framework. Ummm... What am I missing? Sounds like they are using Jato instead of Struts, but I'm not seeing a GUI environment, just a really crude NetBeans integration... Did I miss a link or something? My conclusion: If .NET or C# or anything becomes more prodctive than Struts with DAO, I will switch. I chase profit, and profit to me is showing clients how they can develop fast and productive for very low cost, and operate high volume at low cost. Open Source beats .NET. However is there is more high end consulting in .NET... I have to switch. Interesting comments. As for this one above - I agree. You have to go where the money is when you are consulting. I co-founded a Java-focused consulting company and have since pursued other things, but have noticed that they are starting to do .Net training (internal and external) just as we did Java training back in '97, '98 when Java 1.0 and 1.1 was starting to gain favor. It's the only smart thing to do. Hope all goes well with your business.. Best Regards, James -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
James Higginbotham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... 1. NetDynamics is alive and well, see: http://developer.iplanet.com/tech/appserver/framework/index.jsp They have a nice sample app as well. But since I Planet has a bad rap, so does the Sun framework. Ummm... What am I missing? Sounds like they are using Jato instead of Struts, but I'm not seeing a GUI environment, just a really crude NetBeans integration... Did I miss a link or something? Vic: James, I Think NetDynamics became Jato. A previous poster mentioned NetD in the thread, so I just said here is where it lives. V. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
The thing with .NET and Microsoft is that you normally have little choice on how to do things; you have all in one IDE, which is something I wish we had. As with J2EE you have tons of choices, is that good or bad? Sometimes I think its what makes developing in java a pain, you have tons of IDEs, but none are complete, instead of working together we have tons of different open source tools for the same purpose, and each one lacks something the other has, which makes me wonder why dont they just join forces and create something with the best of the two solutions, and I come up with the answer that this is a democracy, and like a democracy, all we do is argue, as for .NET you get what they ship out :) J2EE containers have been fighting against each other while .NET has been growing its impossible that they didnt see that. How many frameworks like struts are there?(no need to answer, I now there are tons) And now we have JSF, from which I have seen overlaps with Struts, and yet its different, here is my point why not use a framework that is already out, to make life easier for developers. The constant changes in Java are a real pain, when you finally get the hang of something they something comes out that is sometimes totally different. I like new things, but there has to be a limit, we have JSP 2, JSTL, JSF, and etc etc etc. It seems that we need to spend more time finding out what is new and out there and less time developing. And we dont have a all-in-one-to-everything IDE, we have to hope some really nice developer takes the time to develop a plug-in, I dont understand why IDE like Jbuilder dont come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out . Pls dont flame me :) just my opinion, I know a lot ppl put really hard work into Struts, JSF, JSTL, JSP, J2EE and etc. tiago -Original Message- From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Hi Tiago, ... I don't understand why IDE like Jbuilder don't come with support for frameworks like struts. In version 8 or 9 maybe there will be integration with JSF, by then JSF 2 will be out... That support already exists. Try ObjectAssembler, Struts Console, etc. Remember that most IDEs will give you okay support for ten zillion different things but rarely deep support for anything. Try one of the Struts tools that plugs into JBuilder and other IDEs seamlessly and get deep, intelligent support for Struts. You won't have to wait around for mediocre Struts support. :-) Regards, Bill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
In regards to your comments that Microsoft makes your life easier I have to generally agree. They learned a lot from the PowerBuilder and Borland people for their Visual C++ and Visual Basic applications. And they have continued to evolve that into more than just writing standalone apps - Microsoft ties application development together so that having their stuff work with their stuff is very easy. In my mind the issue is one of incentive - Microsoft has a very large incentive to make their stuff work very well with their stuff because sales of one bit of their stuff leads to sales of other bits of their stuff. Most of the work in the OpenSource world is directed at scratching an itch which is generally not an itch of integration. In order to win over the hearts and minds of Microsoft's end users the OpenSource community will have to develop an office suite that is just as integrated as Office. It doesn't matter if it is just as good, it has to behave the same way. You have to be able to drag-and-drop a spreadsheet into a memo to display the quarterly results in a pie chart and have it automatically emailed to a distribution list every month with the pie chart automatically updated every month based on the contents of the sales database. And, it has to be readable without extra effort by everyone that did NOT convert away from MS Office. I think that I see progress is being made on this front, especially with OpenOffice, and I am grateful. In order to win over the hearts and minds of Microsoft's developers the OpenSource community will have to develop an IDE that will integrate component development with desktop application development and web-based application development using some fancy drag-and-drop GUI. What I see here is a decent fragmentation of the market because every developer has their own idea of what is good and is willing to go off and write their own. That is both the strength and the weakness of the OpenSource development process. Microsoft wins developers because they have one IDE that can do _everything_ you need to do to develop an app on any Microsoft platform. That isn't here yet for OpenSource. Personally, I've moved over to Java and the use of OpenSource tools because of the options they provide to me. But I know waaay too many developers who won't move over because there is no single tool to choose that they can get all of their work done with. rjsjr Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
I agree. I'm really glad someone finally brought this up. Microsoft products make development a lot easier. All religious bias aside, I think most opensource advocates are pragmatically banking on opensource eventually becoming as easy to use as Microsoft stuff, but without the downsides of Microsoft software, like cost and vendor lock-in for example. Opensource products have just focused on functionality first, and ease of use second. I think the ease of use part won't really take off until a victor emerges from the functionality phase, and there are still a bunch of contenders competing for that title. Or maybe I'm wrong and folks just think GUI tools for building GUI apps are for sissies. -Original Message- From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
No flames, but here's my .02: Sure, some M$ development tools shorten the cycle for creating GUI widgets, and apparently web interfaces as well according to the email below. But here's my (different) experience with Visual Studio and MFC whilst creating a windows application a couple of years ago: There's a finite number of ways to create any particular GUI, and you better make sure you know what the 'right' way is, because the development environment doesn't give a damn how you want to piece the GUI framework together, and is not at all forgiving. Also, if you make a mistake somewhere along the way in your wizard or visual dev. environment, and want to make a spot manual change, good luck. Do it through the interface or suffer the consequences. Finally, the MFC classes' API just plain sucks, IMHO. It may have improved lately, and I know .NET has better interfaces, but frankly debugging my MFC app. was a real pain in part because the APIs were not intuitive, and I found myself reading usage docs for the most trivial of function calls. I have rarely found this to be the case with Java's core APIs, J2EE, or Jakarta's projects. That experience has jaded me quite a bit towards M$ development, I'm afraid. If you want to create a nice desktop app. quickly, sure, go with Visual Studio. For enterprise development, I just don't endorse M$'s one-size-fits-all approach. I'd much rather have choices. :) peace, Joe -Original Message- From: Dan Cancro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Fri 8/30/2002 10:37 AM To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' Cc: Subject: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments I agree. I'm really glad someone finally brought this up. Microsoft products make development a lot easier. All religious bias aside, I think most opensource advocates are pragmatically banking on opensource eventually becoming as easy to use as Microsoft stuff, but without the downsides of Microsoft software, like cost and vendor lock-in for example. Opensource products have just focused on functionality first, and ease of use second. I think the ease of use part won't really take off until a victor emerges from the functionality phase, and there are still a bunch of contenders competing for that title. Or maybe I'm wrong and folks just think GUI tools for building GUI apps are for sissies. -Original Message- From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
I have to agree with your assessment: Struts is a fabulous framework, and now we need a real application development environment to sit on top of it. Kudos to all those writing graphical interfaces to struts, but most of them are just GUI panels on top of the config files. I saw one (can't recall the name) that was commercial and offered page flow mgmt as well - nice addition, but still not where I want to be. My preferred way of working would be simliar to the old days of NetDynamics (before Sun bought them and closed them up - yeah, yeah, became part of iPlanet - whatever!). Define your project, define your datasource(s), define your pages, define your page fields, bind the data fields from your sources to your page fields. Its sort of like Powerbuilder or M$ tools, but would use the appropriate design patterns. NetD wrote their own app server, since j2ee wasn't out until they were bought by Sun, and servlets were just something cute. Toward the end, they started to support EJB 1.0 and even allowed your page fields to bind to EJB methods (!) rather than to your datasource - viola! Instant data binding to your business methods. They offered page templates (before JSP) with the option of diving into the action and page code to fix things, and offered many ways for most sites (esp intranets that need to publish data quickly) to get going very fast. Now, can this fix everything? No! Can this get rid of your expense developers? No! There are still hard problems to solve, and right/wrong ways to do things.. Can this help your developers spend less time messing with config files, page workflows (wizards, etc), and simple data binding tasks and more time working on the application at hand? I believe so.. Oh, and if there is someone out there who is writing, has written, or intends to write something like this - contact me, I really would like to help or be a beta tester! Enjoy the weekend! James -Original Message- From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Elderclei R Reami wrote: Hi, Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. FWIW, I agree that .NET is a great deal easier to use than any open source J2EE combo pack currently available. Last fall, I was invited to a 3-day, all expenses paid workshop that introduced .NET to Java authors, (since when would Sun do anything like that for MS authors?) and I was blown away by the simplicity and elegance of .NET. Also, I noticed that Scott McNealy himself made a comment in a recent interview to the effect that whoever advertises the most wins. I'm an avid reader of the New York Times and I've noticed numerous full-page .NET advertisements in that newspaper over the past few months and zero adds for Java or J2EE. One degree of freedom. Indeed. Finally, as a Java author, I've watched in abject horror as Java book sales have plummeted over the past year and .NET books have gradually gained ground. Watch out, J2EE, the .NET juggernaut is at your back and coming up fast. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Actually, it's much worse than that. After reading through the JSF tutorial, JSF makes developing UIs *more difficult* than Struts. As it's currently spec'd, JSF can't hold a candle to Struts, even though it's obviously a blatant, inelegant Struts imitation. Want to use form beans with JSF? You've got to create them yourself with jsp:useBean. Want validation with JSF? Get ready to write some Java code and plug it into the framework. All that for what -- 2 years of development (not to mention a year late)? I just sent feedback to the JSF expert group stating my concerns with JSF and I suggest that others on this mailing list read the tutorial and spec and do the same. In the spirit of the Friday biere messages: c'est dommage! david Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments
Hi James, I guess you were talking about Avalon, which is a nice tool to model functional flow, but it's not exactly what we want. Hope we have easier life soon, or M$ will surely dominate other development niche. People using WSAD says it's extremely slow, but I've never used it. Regards, Elder PS: Now it's time for [Beer] On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:35:52 -0500, James Higginbotham [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu : De: James Higginbotham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Data: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:35:52 -0500 Para: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Assunto: RE: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments I have to agree with your assessment: Struts is a fabulous framework, and now we need a real application development environment to sit on top of it. Kudos to all those writing graphical interfaces to struts, but most of them are just GUI panels on top of the config files. I saw one (can't recall the name) that was commercial and offered page flow mgmt as well - nice addition, but still not where I want to be. My preferred way of working would be simliar to the old days of NetDynamics (before Sun bought them and closed them up - yeah, yeah, became part of iPlanet - whatever!). Define your project, define your datasource(s), define your pages, define your page fields, bind the data fields from your sources to your page fields. Its sort of like Powerbuilder or M$ tools, but would use the appropriate design patterns. NetD wrote their own app server, since j2ee wasn't out until they were bought by Sun, and servlets were just something cute. Toward the end, they started to support EJB 1.0 and even allowed your page fields to bind to EJB methods (!) rather than to your datasource - viola! Instant data binding to your business methods. They offered page templates (before JSP) with the option of diving into the action and page code to fix things, and offered many ways for most sites (esp intranets that need to publish data quickly) to get going very fast. Now, can this fix everything? No! Can this get rid of your expense developers? No! There are still hard problems to solve, and right/wrong ways to do things.. Can this help your developers spend less time messing with config files, page workflows (wizards, etc), and simple data binding tasks and more time working on the application at hand? I believe so.. Oh, and if there is someone out there who is writing, has written, or intends to write something like this - contact me, I really would like to help or be a beta tester! Enjoy the weekend! James -Original Message- From: Elderclei R Reami [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 9:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Java Server Faces and Developer Life Comments Hi, I've just finished my first Struts project, and it's been a great experience on how to do and not to do things. This list has been of great help, as well. Anyway, I have some comments to make. Please, don't flame me, because it's just a view someone that needs to be productive. I've developed a project some time ago using .Net framework and Visual Studio. Wonderful experience, very very much productive. Creation of a web interface is just a matter of point and click. First impression: that's what I need for mass production, short 'sell, implement, bill' cycles. Graphical components do keep state during calls, integration is event-oriented, which makes it easy like Visual Basic or Delphi traditional dev. Really easy to learn and use. About Struts: hard to use, lack of good development tools, but years light ahead of pure JSP development. Struts has all the chances of being the way to go. It just needs to be made easier to use, what means: GUI development. I've seen some options: Eclipse+EasyStruts, StrutsBuilder, StrutsConsole - great tools, but none of them really make GUI+Struts integration easy, they are more like wizards, and need a lot of work yet. Even though, I'm passionate about Java, I need to recognize: M$ really makes UI development a lot easier than Sun/Java/Open Source Community. If you ever developed a VB app and a Swing-based Java app, knows what I mean. The point is: M$ approach is make it easy, our approach is make it generic, and conceptually beautiful. M$ approach is sell it, do it fast with small costs, have more profit. I haven't read the entire JSF spec, but I've seen the tutorial, and as far as I understand it, JSF does not make programming UI interface much easier than Struts. Any comments? The matter is: I have a family, and want to get home earlier, not 4:00AM. A lot of philosophy and online psychoterapy for FRIDAY, but... :) Cheers, Elderclei R Reami Vertis Tecnologia +55 11 3887-0835 www.vertisnet.com.br -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-user- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional
