RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[mike . witt]

People I have talked to who have posted jobs say they get 100's to 1000's 
of resumes, with about 1/3 locally.  I know that 5 years ago I was able to 
get $50/hr from a contract agency (analysts international), but now the rate
they are willing to pay is much less.  Companies are putting a lot of
pressure
on contracting companies to lower their rates.  I would suggest you look 
at Janet Ruhl's site (www.realrates.com) as there is usually some
interesting 
information there about rates and what companies are trying to do to get
them 
lowered.

Mike

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 1:34 PM
To: 'apachep2 '; ''Struts Users Mailing List' '
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


Not sure about why all are ranting about this economy, but there are
more
than enough jobs available in IT.  It's qualifications what set the ones
with a job apart from the ones without.  There are still over 100,000
reported unfilled jobs in the IT sector, as well as if you go to
monster.com, jobs.perl.org, and many other sites, you'll see daily
postings
of jobs.  So there are jobs, I guess the question is whether the
developers
we are speaking of are qualified for those jobs.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: apachep2
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Sent: 3/28/03 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his job
for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an entry
level job.

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
rates?

Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
$30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
then
there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
after
the work is done.

Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has
to
pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
now
were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
then
there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
higher
and that's just the average.

Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves
the
company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
billed
for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
done,
there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
consultants
always find ways to bill:-)

Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
usually
for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most
of
those rates are for shorter term projects.

I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
McDonald's
employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper
was
smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)

Ilya


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.

Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
elsewhere who get even less. 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?



Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
of low wages 

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote: 
30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years

Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Jeff Caddel]

On a side note related to contracting/consulting, do ya'll generally 
attempt to get the numbers on the table when you deal with 3rd party 
recruiting companies?  Are you usually aware of what the recruiting 
company is charging the firm you are working for?  Do you feel (like I 
do) that you have a right to know?  I've been on 5 contracts over the 
past 3+ years:
Pay Rate / Bill Rate / Duration
$55 hr / $77 hr / 13 months
$155 hr / $220 hr / 6 weeks
$83 hr / $100 hr / 13 months
$55 hr / $90 hr / 9 months
$155 hr / $165 hr / 1 week

Only once did a recruiting company initially refuse to divulge to me 
what the client was going to be charged.  That project ended up 
embroiled in some nasty infighting with the project manager fighting 
with the HR rep who was fighting with the recruiting firm that was doing 
everything it could to hide the ridiculous difference between pay 
rate/bill rate.  Nothing exposes the darker side of human nature better 
than a bare knuckled brawl over large chunks of cash. ;)  

After that experience one thing I do (if at all possible) is get the 
recruiter face to face, chat them up some, ask very pointedly what they 
are planning on charging the client for me, then sit back and watch the 
show.  Very rarely do they just come right out and say a number, but if 
they break into a cold sweat and act like they are hiding the secret 
location of Sadaam's private bunker, be forewarned, composing elegant 
Java code is most likely one of the easier challenges you have in front 
of you...

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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Sterin, Ilya]

I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
rates?

Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
$30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less, then
there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed after
the work is done.

Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has to
pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So now
were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see, then
there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and higher
and that's just the average.

Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves the
company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be billed
for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is done,
there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know, consultants
always find ways to bill:-)

Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are usually
for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most of
those rates are for shorter term projects.

I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag McDonald's
employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper was
smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)

Ilya


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.

Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
elsewhere who get even less. 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?



Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
of low wages 

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote: 
30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we
have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Brian Lee]

An employer's FICA contribution is only 7.5% (the employee pays the other 
7.5%).

BAL

From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Andrew Hill ' [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'Struts Users Mailing 
List ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 07:03:58 -0700

I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
rates?
Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
$30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less, then
there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed after
the work is done.
Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has to
pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So now
were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see, then
there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and higher
and that's just the average.
Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves 
the
company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be billed
for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is done,
there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know, consultants
always find ways to bill:-)

Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are usually
for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most of
those rates are for shorter term projects.
I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag McDonald's
employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper 
was
smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.
Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
elsewhere who get even less.
-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
of low wages
Scott
www.exergonic.com.au
On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote:
30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
India? Russia?
In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.
Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...
Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
balance,
whatver than means :-)
All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$
These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).
Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
an
expensive part of town.
NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[apachep2]

Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his job
for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an entry
level job.

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
rates?

Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
$30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
then
there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
after
the work is done.

Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has
to
pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
now
were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
then
there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
higher
and that's just the average.

Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves
the
company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
billed
for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
done,
there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
consultants
always find ways to bill:-)

Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
usually
for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most
of
those rates are for shorter term projects.

I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
McDonald's
employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper
was
smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)

Ilya


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.

Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
elsewhere who get even less. 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?



Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
of low wages 

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote: 
30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
22-40

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Andrew Hill]

Thats very much the case over here.

People with several years experience elbowing out grads for the $2000 to
$3000 a month (Thats 1100 - 1700 $USD approx (which is more than it was last
week hehe)) positions (that used to be entry positions - but theres none of
those now) and not just in IT...

And one in two taxi drivers I meet seems to have been an engineer only a few
months before...
(The other one usually being some old codger whose been driving cabs since
Model T's were all the rage)

-Original Message-
From: apachep2 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 22:51
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his job
for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an entry
level job.

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
rates?

Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
$30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
then
there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
after
the work is done.

Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has
to
pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
now
were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
then
there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
higher
and that's just the average.

Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves
the
company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
billed
for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
done,
there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
consultants
always find ways to bill:-)

Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
usually
for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most
of
those rates are for shorter term projects.

I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
McDonald's
employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper
was
smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)

Ilya


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.

Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
elsewhere who get even less.

-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?



Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
of low wages

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote:
30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures

Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Robert Leland]

FYI:

I have contracted twice once was for 4 months
full time at $100/hr. The other was as a consultant
at $110/hr, which was only for about 20 hours.
This may be atypical, but a
business will charge another company,goverment,
for an regular employee that would be paid only 40%-50% of that,
so $40/hr.
-Rob



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To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Sterin, Ilya]

Not sure about why all are ranting about this economy, but there are more
than enough jobs available in IT.  It's qualifications what set the ones
with a job apart from the ones without.  There are still over 100,000
reported unfilled jobs in the IT sector, as well as if you go to
monster.com, jobs.perl.org, and many other sites, you'll see daily postings
of jobs.  So there are jobs, I guess the question is whether the developers
we are speaking of are qualified for those jobs.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: apachep2
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Sent: 3/28/03 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his job
for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an entry
level job.

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
rates?

Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
$30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
then
there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
after
the work is done.

Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has
to
pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
now
were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
then
there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
higher
and that's just the average.

Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves
the
company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
billed
for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
done,
there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
consultants
always find ways to bill:-)

Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
usually
for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most
of
those rates are for shorter term projects.

I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
McDonald's
employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper
was
smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)

Ilya


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.

Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
elsewhere who get even less. 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?



Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
of low wages 

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote: 
30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[James Mitchell]

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 13:34, Sterin, Ilya wrote:
 Not sure about why all are ranting about this economy, but there are more
 than enough jobs available in IT.  It's qualifications what set the ones
 with a job apart from the ones without.  There are still over 100,000
 reported unfilled jobs in the IT sector, as well as if you go to
 monster.com, jobs.perl.org, and many other sites, you'll see daily postings
 of jobs.  So there are jobs, I guess the question is whether the developers
 we are speaking of are qualified for those jobs.

Oh, well that must explain why I can't find a job in Atlanta.  I'm not
qualifiedI see.

 
 Ilya
 
 -Original Message-
 From: apachep2
 To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
 Sent: 3/28/03 7:50 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his job
 for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
 whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
 developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an entry
 level job.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
 To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
 rates?
 
 Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
 $30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
 dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
 expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
 then
 there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
 after
 the work is done.
 
 Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has
 to
 pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
 now
 were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
 then
 there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
 higher
 and that's just the average.
 
 Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves
 the
 company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
 billed
 for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
 done,
 there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
 consultants
 always find ways to bill:-)
 
 Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
 usually
 for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
 subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
 past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
 developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most
 of
 those rates are for shorter term projects.
 
 I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
 McDonald's
 employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper
 was
 smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)
 
 Ilya
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hill
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 Half right. :-)
 
 I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
 apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.
 
 Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
 really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
 for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
 going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
 elsewhere who get even less. 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 
 
 Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
 of low wages 
 
 Scott
 www.exergonic.com.au
 
 On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote: 
 30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
 from?
 India? Russia?
 
 In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
 charge
 that most contractors will laugh at here.
 
 Ilya
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hill
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 These are USD per HOUR?
 
 Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
 Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
 by
 30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
 whole
 working life (4+ years). A lot more...
 
 Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?
 
 Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???
 
 Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Eva Sager]

Atlanta's job market sucks...  most of the jobs listed on Monster and other
such boards have been there for ages, they aren't filled because the
employer isn't filling them, not due to a lack of qualified developers.  I
know many extremely qualified developers who either aren't working or are
working for far less than they are worth because they have to get a pay
check.  I am glad that your job market is so good Ilya, but I don't think
you can speak for the economy in general.  

-Original Message-
From: James Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 1:45 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 13:34, Sterin, Ilya wrote:
 Not sure about why all are ranting about this economy, but there are more
 than enough jobs available in IT.  It's qualifications what set the ones
 with a job apart from the ones without.  There are still over 100,000
 reported unfilled jobs in the IT sector, as well as if you go to
 monster.com, jobs.perl.org, and many other sites, you'll see daily
postings
 of jobs.  So there are jobs, I guess the question is whether the
developers
 we are speaking of are qualified for those jobs.

Oh, well that must explain why I can't find a job in Atlanta.  I'm not
qualifiedI see.

 
 Ilya
 
 -Original Message-
 From: apachep2
 To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
 Sent: 3/28/03 7:50 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his job
 for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
 whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
 developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an entry
 level job.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
 To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
 rates?
 
 Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
 $30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
 dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
 expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
 then
 there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
 after
 the work is done.
 
 Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has
 to
 pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
 now
 were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
 then
 there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
 higher
 and that's just the average.
 
 Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves
 the
 company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
 billed
 for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
 done,
 there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
 consultants
 always find ways to bill:-)
 
 Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
 usually
 for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
 subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
 past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
 developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most
 of
 those rates are for shorter term projects.
 
 I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
 McDonald's
 employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper
 was
 smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)
 
 Ilya
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hill
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 Half right. :-)
 
 I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
 apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.
 
 Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
 really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
 for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
 going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
 elsewhere who get even less. 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 
 
 Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
 of low wages 
 
 Scott
 www.exergonic.com.au
 
 On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote: 
 30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
 from?
 India? Russia?
 
 In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
 charge
 that most contractors will laugh at here.
 
 Ilya
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Sterin, Ilya]

That's another great fact:-)

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Robert Leland
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/28/03 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

FYI:

I have contracted twice once was for 4 months
full time at $100/hr. The other was as a consultant
at $110/hr, which was only for about 20 hours.
This may be atypical, but a
business will charge another company,goverment,
for an regular employee that would be paid only 40%-50% of that,
so $40/hr.

-Rob



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Rick Reumann]

On 28 Mar 2003 13:44:52 -0500
James Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Oh, well that must explain why I can't find a job in Atlanta.  I'm not
 qualifiedI see.

I wasn't qualified for this one either James, don't feel bad

STRUTS DEVELOPER NEEDED

REQUIRED SKILLS:

Struts, Java, C++, XML, EJB, SQL, UML, Electrical Engineering, Expert
Horseback Rider, Must be able to shoot 85% from free throw line,
vegetarian, proficient in VCR repair, must be able to make a great pot
of coffee, must get along with Boss' wife and his pets.

PAY: 25-30/hr depending on experience


-- 
Rick Reumann

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[apachep2]

Let's all relocate to Ilya's country. I guess I have to pay for my
relocation cost as you can find on most of the job board postings (local
candidates only, no visa sponsorship, no relocation).

-Original Message-
From: Eva Sager [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 28, 2003 1:49 PM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Atlanta's job market sucks...  most of the jobs listed on Monster and
other
such boards have been there for ages, they aren't filled because the
employer isn't filling them, not due to a lack of qualified developers.
I
know many extremely qualified developers who either aren't working or
are
working for far less than they are worth because they have to get a pay
check.  I am glad that your job market is so good Ilya, but I don't
think
you can speak for the economy in general.  

-Original Message-
From: James Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 1:45 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 13:34, Sterin, Ilya wrote:
 Not sure about why all are ranting about this economy, but there are
more
 than enough jobs available in IT.  It's qualifications what set the
ones
 with a job apart from the ones without.  There are still over 100,000
 reported unfilled jobs in the IT sector, as well as if you go to
 monster.com, jobs.perl.org, and many other sites, you'll see daily
postings
 of jobs.  So there are jobs, I guess the question is whether the
developers
 we are speaking of are qualified for those jobs.

Oh, well that must explain why I can't find a job in Atlanta.  I'm not
qualifiedI see.

 
 Ilya
 
 -Original Message-
 From: apachep2
 To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
 Sent: 3/28/03 7:50 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his
job
 for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
 whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
 developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an
entry
 level job.
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
 To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing
those
 rates?
 
 Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
 $30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits,
madical,
 dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
 expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
 then
 there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
 after
 the work is done.
 
 Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer
has
 to
 pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
 now
 were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
 then
 there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
 higher
 and that's just the average.
 
 Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually
saves
 the
 company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
 billed
 for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
 done,
 there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
 consultants
 always find ways to bill:-)
 
 Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
 usually
 for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on
the
 subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...
Also
 past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
 developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also,
most
 of
 those rates are for shorter term projects.
 
 I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
 McDonald's
 employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger
flipper
 was
 smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)
 
 Ilya
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hill
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 Half right. :-)
 
 I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
 apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.
 
 Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
 really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but
as
 for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
 going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
 elsewhere who get even less. 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 
 
 Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Assenza, Chris]

That's really over-generalized.  Those statistics cannot be so broadly
applied to the market. 100,000 available jobs in IT can mean anything from
network admins to programmers or perhaps help desk / customer-support
people.  I also think you'd need to compare the number of tangible
programming positions and their technology demands (like Java or .NET,
Cobol, HTML, etc.) to the available market of potential workers with the
appropriate experience and interest.  Not everyone is going to want to, or
be able to, switch careers and go bang their head against Cobol for IBM
Mainframes if their interest and expertise is J2EE; unless, they physically
-must- do so for their own survival.  In that case, it may be true, perhaps
they are not qualified. 

The bottom line is that you can only talk about qualification within the
context of a single given programming position (or a number of like
programming positions), not the IT sector as a whole.  It's irrelevant and
even a bit gauche. 

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 1:34 PM
To: 'apachep2 '; ''Struts Users Mailing List' '
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


Not sure about why all are ranting about this economy, but there are more
than enough jobs available in IT.  It's qualifications what set the ones
with a job apart from the ones without.  There are still over 100,000
reported unfilled jobs in the IT sector, as well as if you go to
monster.com, jobs.perl.org, and many other sites, you'll see daily postings
of jobs.  So there are jobs, I guess the question is whether the developers
we are speaking of are qualified for those jobs.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: apachep2
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Sent: 3/28/03 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Have you guys ever think of a situation, when a developer loses his job
for a while, he will take whatever contract it is and being paid
whatever the employer will offer? In this economy condition, supply of
developers always exceeds demanding. I see seniors applying for an entry
level job.

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: March 28, 2003 9:04 AM
To: 'Andrew Hill '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

I'm still not understanding why you are having problems believing those
rates?

Here, an average IT employee salary for full time staff employee, is
$30+/hour.  An employer, spends about another 20% on benefits, madical,
dental, etc...  So the employer, really faces about a $36-$40 average
expense on an employee.  Now, if this contract is say 1 year or less,
then
there is a drawback of having someone stay, when they are not needed
after
the work is done.

Now, $40 dollars, is just per employee expense.  Now, each employer has
to
pay FICA tax, for each on staff employee, which is about 15% more.  So
now
were are up to about the $50 round about figure per hour.  Lets see,
then
there is office expenses, etc... so the figure is getting higher and
higher
and that's just the average.

Now, an average rate for a contractor is about $50, which actually saves
the
company money, for outsourcing it, then also allows them to only be
billed
for hours as needed, so if one week there is a break, and no work is
done,
there is no bill, at least some of the time, since as we know,
consultants
always find ways to bill:-)

Now, getting to higher figures of say $75/hour-$150/hour, those are
usually
for expert consultants.  Say, I know people who've written books on the
subject, and they have the credibility to charge that much, etc...  Also
past experience, thorough knowledge of technology, being a core team
developer of this particular technology or similar ranking.  Also, most
of
those rates are for shorter term projects.

I hope this helps you understand this a bit better.  An averag
McDonald's
employee is costing the company about $25/hour, so if the burger flipper
was
smart, he or she would break a deal of $20/hour and call it a day:-)

Ilya


-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 9:02 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing
apples  oranges (or salary  contract) ;-.

Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they
really so high?  - still have trouble believing those figures!), but as
for those in India, Russia, etc... they would get a fraction of the
going rate here, and there are probably folk doing the same stuff
elsewhere who get even less. 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?



Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land
of low wages 

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya

Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Simon Kelly]

These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about 22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon


- Original Message -
From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts
Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired was
 not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it is
 really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what we are
 doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better
 now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.

 At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
   general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
   scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
   be?  Thanks.
 
 First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
 mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
 another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
 from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
 amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the courts,
 which is illegal.
 
 That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
 your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
 point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
 that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
 
 Tammy
 
 
 
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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Andrew Hill]

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about 22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon


- Original Message -
From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts
Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired was
 not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it is
 really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what we are
 doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better
 now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.

 At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
   general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
   scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
   be?  Thanks.
 
 First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
 mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
 another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
 from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
 amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the courts,
 which is illegal.
 
 That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
 your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
 point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
 that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
 
 Tammy
 
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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 This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents contain
 information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally
 privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
 individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as
 indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
 copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the
 information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If you
 have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.
Thank
 you



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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Simon Kelly]

Not a word of a lie Andy.  The senior architect (There can be only one!! ;-)
is on a little under 200K uk pounds, but note this is a *wage* not an hourly
rate he gets that a year plus bonuses, only the gardes 1 and 2 get the OT
and *only* if it is absolutely necessary and I think one of the grade 3s got
it once one mad weekend but that would have been a very special case.  And
remember this is London, not Chiswick (Look it up in a map book, I can't
remeber where it is) and a one bedroom flat can set you back the best part
of 150K+ and that's not in the best bits.

You could probably knock the best part of 40% off outside of London,
although Bristol pay is heading in that direction if you get in the right
company.

Cheers

Simon

- Original Message -
From: Andrew Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 These are USD per HOUR?

 Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
 Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
 30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
 working life (4+ years). A lot more...

 Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

 Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

 Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

 -Original Message-
 From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
 for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
 included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
OT
 on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a week
 that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
balance,
 whatver than means :-)

 All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

 Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
 Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
 Grade three (Designer) - 55$
 Grade four (Architect) - 90$
 Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

 These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
 500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
week-day/sat --
 2*hourly sun).

 Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
22-40%
 on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in an
 expensive part of town.

 NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we
have
 set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If you've
 been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about anything!!
 =]:0)

 Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

 Cheers

 Simon


 - Original Message -
 From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts
 Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


  I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired
was
  not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it is
  really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what we
are
  doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better
  now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.
 
  At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable
request
be?  Thanks.
  
  First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
  mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
  another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
  from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
  amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the
courts,
  which is illegal.
  
  That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
  your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
  point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
  that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
  
  Tammy
  
  
  
  -
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
  LEGAL NOTICE
 
  This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents
contain
  information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and
legally
  privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
  individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent
as
  indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
  copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance

Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Simon Kelly]

DAMN and blast my grade school math!!!

I messed up a couple of the calculations, so from 1 to 5 it is in US dollars
(Rounded up to the nearest dollar) 20, 28, 40, 80, 172.  And the employee
count (roughly); 20( grade 1  2), 4, 3, 1.

And just as a rough guesstimate at the first quater of a liftimes earnings
will be about 400,000 uk pounds in about 16 years for a standard worker (no
uni education) working from 18 years old started work in 1987 (Based on uk
average wage) which is about 14 uk pounds an hour. Senior executive, same
time line (last quater of working life) would be looking at anything from
1.6M to 82.5M+

As you may have guessed, I have nothing to do at the moment (waiting on an
executive decission)  =]:0)

Cheers

Simon


- Original Message -
From: Simon Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 Not a word of a lie Andy.  The senior architect (There can be only one!!
;-)
 is on a little under 200K uk pounds, but note this is a *wage* not an
hourly
 rate he gets that a year plus bonuses, only the gardes 1 and 2 get the OT
 and *only* if it is absolutely necessary and I think one of the grade 3s
got
 it once one mad weekend but that would have been a very special case.  And
 remember this is London, not Chiswick (Look it up in a map book, I can't
 remeber where it is) and a one bedroom flat can set you back the best part
 of 150K+ and that's not in the best bits.

 You could probably knock the best part of 40% off outside of London,
 although Bristol pay is heading in that direction if you get in the right
 company.

 Cheers

 Simon

 - Original Message -
 From: Andrew Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 9:32 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


  These are USD per HOUR?
 
  Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
  Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
 by
  30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
 whole
  working life (4+ years). A lot more...
 
  Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?
 
  Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???
 
  Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
  To: Struts Users Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 
  These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
 company,
  for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
  included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
 OT
  on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
week
  that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
 balance,
  whatver than means :-)
 
  All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)
 
  Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
  Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
  Grade three (Designer) - 55$
  Grade four (Architect) - 90$
  Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$
 
  These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
  500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
 week-day/sat --
  2*hourly sun).
 
  Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
 22-40%
  on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
an
  expensive part of town.
 
  NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we
 have
  set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
you've
  been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
anything!!
  =]:0)
 
  Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!
 
  Cheers
 
  Simon
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
'Struts
  Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
  Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
 
 
   I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired
 was
   not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it is
   really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what we
 are
   doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better
   now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.
  
   At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with
Linux,
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable
 request
 be?  Thanks.
   
   First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
   mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
   another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
   from a lawyer

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Mark Galbreath]

Those are typical rates for the DC-Northern VA area

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 3:33 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about 22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon


- Original Message -
From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts
Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired 
 was not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think 
 it is really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate 
 what we are doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and 
 better now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the 
 lyrics.

 At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
   general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with 
   Linux, scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a 
   reasonable request be?  Thanks.
 
 First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a 
 mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on 
 another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion 
 from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar 
 amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the 
 courts, which is illegal.
 
 That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide 
 your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a 
 starting point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd 
 need to adjust that for your local market, but that's not a bad 
 starting point.
 
 Tammy
 
 
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 LEGAL NOTICE

 This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents 
 contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential 
 and legally privileged.  This information is intended only for the use 
 of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission 
 was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, 
 any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on 
 the contents of the information contained in this transmission is 
 strictly prohibited.  If you have received this transmission in error, 
 please delete the message.
Thank
 you



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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Greg Reddin]

The senior architect (There can be only one!! ;-)

Try to tell our people that... :-)

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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Thomas T. Veldhouse]

Are you on your own or with a company (third party consulting)?  Remember
that you have to pay your own social security, insurance, travel costs and
other administrative maintenance.  $75 might be a good place to start.
California expects a higher bill rate too, the cost of living in the Bay
area, in particular, is simply outrageous.

Tom Veldhouse

- Original Message -
From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 6:28 PM
Subject: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 I have been offered a contract job and asked what I wanted per hour.  I am
 in Washington state and the client (a web development company) is in
 California.  I am an experienced Java (certified) programmer that knows
the
 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
 be?  Thanks.


 LEGAL NOTICE

 This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents contain
 information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally
 privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
 individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as
 indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
 copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the
 information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If you
 have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.
Thank you



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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Thomas T. Veldhouse]

Price fixing wouldn't apply to one person. Courts be damned.

Tom Veldhouse

- Original Message - 
From: Tammy Cravit [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


  general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux, 
  scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request 
  be?  Thanks.
 
 First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
 mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
 another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
 from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
 amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the courts,
 which is illegal.
 
 That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
 your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
 point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
 that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
 
 Tammy
 
 
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Thomas T. Veldhouse]

And those are not that hot of rates either, excluding perhaps the senior
arch.

Tom Veldhouse

- Original Message -
From: Mark Galbreath [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 4:46 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


Those are typical rates for the DC-Northern VA area

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 3:33 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly week-day/sat --

2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about 22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon


- Original Message -
From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts
Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired
 was not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think
 it is really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate
 what we are doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and
 better now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the
 lyrics.

 At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
   general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with
   Linux, scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a
   reasonable request be?  Thanks.
 
 First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
 mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
 another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
 from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
 amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the
 courts, which is illegal.
 
 That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
 your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a
 starting point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd
 need to adjust that for your local market, but that's not a bad
 starting point.
 
 Tammy
 
 
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 LEGAL NOTICE

 This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents
 contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential
 and legally privileged.  This information is intended only for the use
 of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission
 was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient,
 any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on
 the contents of the information contained in this transmission is
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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Sterin, Ilya]

30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we
have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon


- Original Message -
From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
'Struts
Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired
was
 not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it is
 really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what we
are
 doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better
 now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.

 At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
   general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with
Linux,
   scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable
request
   be?  Thanks.
 
 First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
 mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
 another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
 from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
 amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the
courts,
 which is illegal.
 
 That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
 your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a
starting
 point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to
adjust
 that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
 
 Tammy
 
 
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 LEGAL NOTICE

 This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents
contain
 information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and
legally
 privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
 individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was
sent as
 indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any
disclosure,
 copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of
the
 information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited.  If
you
 have received this transmission in error, please delete the message.
Thank
 you



 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




-
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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Scott Barr]

Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land of low wages 

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote:

30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we
have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon

Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Alexandre Jaquet]

or maybe he will get more job's than the others ...

less the rathing he's more client will came ...

I'm a student but I take lots of contracts from
clients who believe compagnies offer service so
expensive for the same job.

That's why I'm so busy lol.
--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Andrew Hill ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts Users
Mailing List ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
 India? Russia?

 In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
 that most contractors will laugh at here.

 Ilya

 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hill
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

 These are USD per HOUR?

 Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
 Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
 by
 30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
 whole
 working life (4+ years). A lot more...

 Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

 Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

 Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

 -Original Message-
 From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
 company,
 for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
 included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
 OT
 on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
 week
 that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
 balance,
 whatver than means :-)

 All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

 Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
 Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
 Grade three (Designer) - 55$
 Grade four (Architect) - 90$
 Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

 These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
 500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
 week-day/sat --
 2*hourly sun).

 Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
 22-40%
 on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
 an
 expensive part of town.

 NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we
 have
 set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
 you've
 been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
 anything!!
 =]:0)

 Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

 Cheers

 Simon


 - Original Message -
 From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 'Struts
 Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


  I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired
 was
  not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it is
  really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what we
 are
  doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better
  now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.
 
  At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with
 Linux,
scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable
 request
be?  Thanks.
  
  First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
  mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
  another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
  from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
  amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the
 courts,
  which is illegal.
  
  That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
  your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a
 starting
  point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to
 adjust
  that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
  
  Tammy
  
  
  
  -
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
  LEGAL NOTICE
 
  This electronic mail  transmission and any accompanying documents
 contain
  information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and
 legally
  privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
  individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was
 sent as
  indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any
 disclosure,
  copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of
 the
  information

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Sterin, Ilya]

But you are a student, there are many benefits to a company choosing a
developer that comes with years of developing enterprise grade, scalable
applications.  For small web app projects, true, for enterprises, I doubt
they'll want to save $40 an hour, to later have to redo the whole project,
due to the fact that who ever developed it to begin with, had little
experience with developing such apps.

As you see, many US and other high wage countries, are in a way effected by
people from India, Russia, China, etc... bidding on project, but not too
many companies are willing to take the rist.  Go to any bidding site, and
see how it effects the bids.  Elance is a great place to look at this bid
process.

Project A

US Contractor bid: $45,000 USD
UK Contractor bid: $40,000 USD
Indian Contractor bid: $2,500 USD

You'd think why wouldn't a corp go with the lower bid, well, there are many
cons, that outweight the pros.  Go to elance, and see which bids are being
awarded the projects, and you'll see.

Nothing against the folks in those countries or their bids, as they bid
equivalent of what it's worth there.  I myself, own a business, and had at
some point thought about outsourcing stuff to India, in the process, I make
the difference, and do no work, and do not have to pay my employees $40+ an
hour, but on 95% of projects, the downsides of this, prevented us from
outsourcing.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Alexandre Jaquet
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

or maybe he will get more job's than the others ...

less the rathing he's more client will came ...

I'm a student but I take lots of contracts from
clients who believe compagnies offer service so
expensive for the same job.

That's why I'm so busy lol.
--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Andrew Hill ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts Users
Mailing List ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
 India? Russia?

 In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
 that most contractors will laugh at here.

 Ilya

 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hill
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

 These are USD per HOUR?

 Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
 Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year,
multiply
 by
 30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
 whole
 working life (4+ years). A lot more...

 Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

 Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

 Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

 -Original Message-
 From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
 company,
 for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
 included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company
pays
 OT
 on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
 week
 that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
 balance,
 whatver than means :-)

 All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

 Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
 Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
 Grade three (Designer) - 55$
 Grade four (Architect) - 90$
 Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

 These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged
from
 500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
 week-day/sat --
 2*hourly sun).

 Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
 22-40%
 on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
 an
 expensive part of town.

 NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that
we
 have
 set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
 you've
 been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
 anything!!
 =]:0)

 Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

 Cheers

 Simon


 - Original Message -
 From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 'Struts
 Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:08 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


  I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be
fired
 was
  not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it
is
  really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what
we
 are
  doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better
  now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.
 
  At 08:49 PM 3/26/03

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Sterin, Ilya]

Just to reiterate, there are many downsides, too many to list.

The major one, at least that effected our decisions, is no legal
juridistiction and no local support presence.  The legal one, far outweighs
the local support, but then add the bunch of other cons, and you'll see
exactly why.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Sterin, Ilya
To: 'Alexandre Jaquet '; 'Struts Users Mailing List '
Sent: 3/27/03 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

But you are a student, there are many benefits to a company choosing a
developer that comes with years of developing enterprise grade, scalable
applications.  For small web app projects, true, for enterprises, I
doubt
they'll want to save $40 an hour, to later have to redo the whole
project,
due to the fact that who ever developed it to begin with, had little
experience with developing such apps.

As you see, many US and other high wage countries, are in a way effected
by
people from India, Russia, China, etc... bidding on project, but not too
many companies are willing to take the rist.  Go to any bidding site,
and
see how it effects the bids.  Elance is a great place to look at this
bid
process.

Project A

US Contractor bid: $45,000 USD
UK Contractor bid: $40,000 USD
Indian Contractor bid: $2,500 USD

You'd think why wouldn't a corp go with the lower bid, well, there are
many
cons, that outweight the pros.  Go to elance, and see which bids are
being
awarded the projects, and you'll see.

Nothing against the folks in those countries or their bids, as they bid
equivalent of what it's worth there.  I myself, own a business, and had
at
some point thought about outsourcing stuff to India, in the process, I
make
the difference, and do no work, and do not have to pay my employees $40+
an
hour, but on 95% of projects, the downsides of this, prevented us from
outsourcing.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Alexandre Jaquet
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

or maybe he will get more job's than the others ...

less the rathing he's more client will came ...

I'm a student but I take lots of contracts from
clients who believe compagnies offer service so
expensive for the same job.

That's why I'm so busy lol.
--
Alexandre Jaquet

- Original Message -
From: Sterin, Ilya [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Andrew Hill ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Struts Users
Mailing List ' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you
from?
 India? Russia?

 In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a
charge
 that most contractors will laugh at here.

 Ilya

 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew Hill
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
 Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

 These are USD per HOUR?

 Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
 Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year,
multiply
 by
 30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
 whole
 working life (4+ years). A lot more...

 Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

 Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

 Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

 -Original Message-
 From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
 To: Struts Users Mailing List
 Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


 These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
 company,
 for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
 included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company
pays
 OT
 on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
 week
 that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
 balance,
 whatver than means :-)

 All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

 Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
 Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
 Grade three (Designer) - 55$
 Grade four (Architect) - 90$
 Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

 These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged
from
 500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
 week-day/sat --
 2*hourly sun).

 Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
 22-40%
 on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
 an
 expensive part of town.

 NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that
we
 have
 set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
 you've
 been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
 anything!!
 =]:0)

 Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

 Cheers

 Simon


 - Original Message -
 From: Micael [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 'Struts
 Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent

RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Andrew Hill]

Half right. :-)

I guess low is a distinctly relative term. Especially when comparing apples  oranges 
(or salary  contract) ;-.

Rates here may be low compared to US or UK contract rates (are they really so high?  - 
still have trouble believing those figures!), but as for those in India, Russia, 
etc... they would get a fraction of the going rate here, and there are probably folk 
doing the same stuff elsewhere who get even less. 

-Original Message-
From: Scott Barr [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 28 March 2003 07:44
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?



Yeah, but we both (i think Andrew is an Aussie) live in Australia. Land of low wages 

Scott
www.exergonic.com.au

On Fri, 2003-03-28 at 06:26, Sterin, Ilya wrote: 
30*3000 is more than your whole entire career earnings?  Where are you from?
India? Russia?

In US that's an average developer contract salary, and $30/hour is a charge
that most contractors will laugh at here.

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Hill
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Sent: 3/27/03 1:32 AM
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

These are USD per HOUR?

Crikey! You could retire after a couple of years on that!
Nah that cant be right. I did a bit under 3000 hours last year, multiply
by
30 and convert to local currency adds up to more than Ive earned in my
whole
working life (4+ years). A lot more...

Are those fair dinkum rates or are you just having us on?

Five weeks holiday??? OT pay???

Yeh. Thought so. Its a joke. hehe. You had me going there mate!

-Original Message-
From: Simon Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 27 March 2003 16:08
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?


These are some going full time rates for a London based e-learning
company,
for an average of 1880 hrs worked in one year (Five weeks holiday not
included in the figures, but you'd get the same rate).  The company pays
OT
on projects that need it, but actually limit the number of hours in a
week
that an employee can be in the office. (Something about a work/life
balance,
whatver than means :-)

All in US dollars (converted from blighty pounds)

Grade one (Whipping boy) - 30$
Grade two (Code monkey) - 40$
Grade three (Designer) - 55$
Grade four (Architect) - 90$
Grade five (Senior Architect) - 150$

These don't include the options and bonuses (last xmas bonus ranged from
500$ to 6000$) and the OT isn't in there (Usually 1.5*hourly
week-day/sat --
2*hourly sun).

Contractor have to pay all the insurance and stuff, so I'd dap about
22-40%
on top of each of these + a little extra if your gonna have to live in
an
expensive part of town.

NOTE to the lawer.  It only becomes illegal if it can be proven that we
have
set a level of pay *and* have all agreed to follow this level.  If
you've
been on here long enough, you'd know *noone* ever agrees about
anything!!
=]:0)

Good luck with the job, I hear California is nice this time of year!!

Cheers

Simon


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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[James Mitchell]

On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 21:28, Micael wrote:
 I have been offered a contract job and asked what I wanted per hour.  I am 
 in Washington state and the client (a web development company) is in 
 California.  I am an experienced Java (certified) programmer that knows the 
 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux, 
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request 
 be?  Thanks.

$50/hr

 
 
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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Jeff Kyser]

That seems pretty low to me...

On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 09:02  PM, James Mitchell wrote:

On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 21:28, Micael wrote:
I have been offered a contract job and asked what I wanted per hour.  
I am
in Washington state and the client (a web development company) is in
California.  I am an experienced Java (certified) programmer that 
knows the
general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
be?  Thanks.
$50/hr



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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Micael]

You the man, James.  Thanks.

At 10:02 PM 3/26/03 -0500, you wrote:
On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 21:28, Micael wrote:
 I have been offered a contract job and asked what I wanted per hour.  I am
 in Washington state and the client (a web development company) is in
 California.  I am an experienced Java (certified) programmer that knows 
the
 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
 be?  Thanks.

$50/hr



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 information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally
 privileged.  This information is intended only for the use of the
 individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as
 indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure,
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message.  Thank you



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Re: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Micael]

Sorry, James, you the man, Jeff.  LOL.  Thanks to both of you for your input.

At 09:12 PM 3/26/03 -0600, you wrote:
That seems pretty low to me...

On Wednesday, March 26, 2003, at 09:02  PM, James Mitchell wrote:

On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 21:28, Micael wrote:
I have been offered a contract job and asked what I wanted per hour.
I am
in Washington state and the client (a web development company) is in
California.  I am an experienced Java (certified) programmer that knows the
general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
be?  Thanks.
$50/hr



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Thank you


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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Tammy Cravit]

 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux, 
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request 
 be?  Thanks.

First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the courts,
which is illegal.

That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.

Tammy



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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[David Graham]

I never thought we'd have lawyers telling use what we can and can't discuss 
on *our* mailing list.

David



From: Tammy Cravit [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:49:31 -0800
 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
 be?  Thanks.
First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the courts,
which is illegal.
That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
Tammy



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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Sterin, Ilya]

Well, all depends, experience, quality, references, etc...

Also, a lot depends on the length of the project.  For a short term, you can
charge about twice as much, where long term, they usually expect regular
employment rates

It's hard to estimate, also depends on who the client is.  Larger clients,
can pay a lot more, smaller clients are cheap and look for best price.

Short term contract $75/hour-$125/hour
Long term $50/hour-$100/hour

Also, look at competition.  Do they have other prospects, etc... You really
have to get a feeling for the project.  You say contract work, but sounds
more like regular employment on contract basis.  To me, contract work means
more on the basis of building a system and leaving.  Since you are looking
to relocate, I take it that this is a long term contract, so look at it as a
regular employment type, then add what ever you'll need for benefits, if
they are not paying them for you, like medical/dental insurance, vacation,
etc...

Ilya

-Original Message-
From: Micael
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 3/26/03 7:28 PM
Subject: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

I have been offered a contract job and asked what I wanted per hour.  I
am 
in Washington state and the client (a web development company) is in 
California.  I am an experienced Java (certified) programmer that knows
the 
general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux, 
scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request 
be?  Thanks.


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individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent
as 
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the 
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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Micael]

This is funny.  Price fixing!  Fire that lawyer.  I AM a lawyer.  That is 
ridiculous.

At 10:03 PM 3/26/03 -0700, you wrote:
I never thought we'd have lawyers telling use what we can and can't 
discuss on *our* mailing list.

David



From: Tammy Cravit [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:49:31 -0800
 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
 be?  Thanks.
First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the courts,
which is illegal.
That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
Tammy



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RE: [OT] Contract Work: Going Rate?

[Micael]

I hope you know that my prior response that the lawyer should be fired was 
not aimed at you, Tammy.  I appreciate your assistance.  I think it is 
really funny, however, that a lawyer would actually associate what we are 
doing with antitrust behavior.  Heck, I feel bigger and better 
now.  LOL!  That lawyer needs to get the tune to match the lyrics.

At 08:49 PM 3/26/03 -0800, Tammy Cravit wrote:
 general landscape well (Tomcat, Struts, Ant, etc., etc., with Linux,
 scripting, various databases, etc.).  What would a reasonable request
 be?  Thanks.
First of all, I would caution about asking questions like this on a
mailing list, as the discussion of hourly rates and stuff came up on
another list I belong to and the moderators there obtained an opinion
from a lawyer that discussing pricing in terms of specific dollar
amounts in a group like this could be deemed price-fixing by the courts,
which is illegal.
That having been said, one common rule of thumb seems to be to divide
your annual salary as an employee by 1000, and using that as a starting
point for figuring out your hourly rate. Obviously you'd need to adjust
that for your local market, but that's not a bad starting point.
Tammy



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