RE: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
-Original Message- From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:04 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Andrew Hill wrote: Incidentally, I recently ordered Applying UML and Patterns in hopes of actually finally understanding UML. Does anyone have anything to say about this book? The reviews at Amazon look _very_ good. The book I recommend is The Unified Software Development Process, it was required reading last year for software engineering. Btw, if you ever need books, go to bookpool.com, comparatively, books are anywhere from 5-15 dollars cheaper. Jacob Hookom Comprehensive Computer Science University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
It can backfire, but this one was less of a risk than I usually take, given that Struts is standards complient. My boss is pitifully grateful when I do ANYTHING that is standard, so permission was quite forthcoming. (I actually work in our standard group, so I am viewed as a rebel because I use Linux most of the time in a heavily M$ department) Simon - Simon P. Chappell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Java Programming Specialist www.landsend.com Lands' End, Inc. (608) 935-4526 -Original Message- From: Daniel Jaffa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:42 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Though some times this approach can back fire on you. Some companies would rather shot them selves is the foot then do something a person in management does not want to do (IF you did not ask first). I found that instead of trying to make the person hang themselves it is easier to make it look like you are following their rules, and that is why you went with struts. - Original Message - From: Eddie Bush [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 10:10 AM Subject: Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Chappell, Simon P wrote: Sometimes, the best technique is to just sit back and give people enough rope to hang themselves. I've done it in the past, I'm doing it right now on the contract I am on, and I'm sure I'll have to do it in the future. I don't even wait to see if they hang themselves, I usually just get on and do it and hope for their sakes that they try to catch up with me. On my current project, I started using Struts and got the rest of the team using Struts and then when we had enough work done that ripping it out would have been difficult, we asked if we could get approval from our architecture group for using Struts. :-) LOL - S M O O T H, man - really S M O O T H :-) I like that! LOL Eddie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
just to confuse you :-) I bought the bool called UML and the unified process and thought it to be very well structured and easy to learn. Regards, Michael - Original Message - From: Jacob Hookom [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Struts Users Mailing List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 7:01 PM Subject: RE: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns -Original Message- From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:04 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Andrew Hill wrote: Incidentally, I recently ordered Applying UML and Patterns in hopes of actually finally understanding UML. Does anyone have anything to say about this book? The reviews at Amazon look _very_ good. The book I recommend is The Unified Software Development Process, it was required reading last year for software engineering. Btw, if you ever need books, go to bookpool.com, comparatively, books are anywhere from 5-15 dollars cheaper. Jacob Hookom Comprehensive Computer Science University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.375 / Virus Database: 210 - Release Date: 7/10/2002 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
Jacob Hookom wrote: The book I recommend is The Unified Software Development Process, it was required reading last year for software engineering. Btw, if you ever need books, go to bookpool.com, comparatively, books are anywhere from 5-15 dollars cheaper. I always order through bookpool - but I check reviews at amazon :-) Thanks for the tip though - very sound advice! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
Hehe. I only learned enough to parse in my XHTML (which is just html with a few / in the right places) and get a DOM (which is basically a glorified tree with several types of nodes, and 90% of the time im just interested in the element node type)). So if my xhtml has input id=bob type=text value=blah/ I could use something like document.getElementById(bob).setAttribute(value,yada yada yada); (Actually I do a lot more and at an abstract level - but its still not very technically complicated - the complexity is all stuff Ive added. For example, if the bob element was a td or a span or a textarea etc... my code is smart enough to figure it out and modify the DOM in an appropriate manner, so I can fool around with the layout to a certain degree with no code changes required). Still havent learnt all that xPath, and xslt stuff... now THAT looks hard ;-) -Original Message- From: Eddie Bush [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 12:51 To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Andrew Hill wrote: C arrays start at one! rofl! Which book was that! I don't recall now. The dept chair was giving the computer club books to sell for funds at the time, and I think general consensus was that _that_ book should simply be burned - which we did, with great pleasure, while consuming large amounts of alcoholic beverages ;-) Ah - the joys of college. LOL Yep. One can certainly do very good code in JSPs, and one can do very bad code in Java, so in the end, as you say its up to the developer concerned. Personally I find JSPs somewhat ugly, and I dont like having to wait till deploytime or runtime to see if I made a stupid typo somewhere (I do this a lot), and I find normal java source code a lot easier to debug when I get exceptions or other such errors (which is also quite often!). I also didnt have time to learn JSP in depth when I started this project and found it quicker to develop using skills I already had (plain xhtml, and 'normal' java). Its really a matter of preference. Yes, it really is :-) I'm in your reverse position though. I found it much easier to pick up JSP than XML. To this day, I have an XML aversion that I hope to eventually cure. Ive implemented a simple caching mechanism, so I only have to parse the XML into a DOM once for a particular page (XMLC, which is also DOM based, takes another approach here and actually generates a java class file at compile time with code that will assemble the DOM at runtime), but of course the DOM still has to be written out as text at the end of the day. Im not sure how much slower this is than straight print() calls in the compiled jsp code. Shouldlnt be too bad I would think as its really just a case of the XHTMLSerializer walking the tree, but obviously theres somewhat more overhead there. I dont think the 2 second servlet folk would appreciate it ;-) Ahh - you probably don't suffer as much as I thought you did. PFT! You know - some companies think they are so bright. It's amazing to know that some of them are indoctorinating folks into such habits. ... sad really. Off topic, but still talking xml, I gather most modern browsers now support xml and xsl so you can return xml and have the stylesheet on your server where the broswer will pull it up and do the conversion. Your presentation code here would return xml and a neat opportunity this presents it that you could supply different stylesheets for different locales, client devices, etc... (For clients that cant do the conversion, you would do it for them of course and then return the final *ml). Theres a library for doing this sort of thing in struts (stxx I think its called?). Alas, I never had time to look into this. Seems pretty cool though. Love the concept - hate the XML ;-) No offense. As I said, I have an aversion to XML I need to overcome. I do see it's utility - lots of power. I just haven't had time to put forth brain-power actually trying to learn it well yet :-/ ... but I'm sure that day will come. Bed-time :-/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
Though some times this approach can back fire on you. Some companies would rather shot them selves is the foot then do something a person in management does not want to do (IF you did not ask first). I found that instead of trying to make the person hang themselves it is easier to make it look like you are following their rules, and that is why you went with struts. - Original Message - From: Eddie Bush [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 10:10 AM Subject: Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Chappell, Simon P wrote: Sometimes, the best technique is to just sit back and give people enough rope to hang themselves. I've done it in the past, I'm doing it right now on the contract I am on, and I'm sure I'll have to do it in the future. I don't even wait to see if they hang themselves, I usually just get on and do it and hope for their sakes that they try to catch up with me. On my current project, I started using Struts and got the rest of the team using Struts and then when we had enough work done that ripping it out would have been difficult, we asked if we could get approval from our architecture group for using Struts. :-) LOL - S M O O T H, man - really S M O O T H :-) I like that! LOL Eddie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
Andrew Hill wrote: Personally I think JSPs are the devils work (mixing code and layout/chrome like that. Yuck!) - but the idea of writing servlets with lots of printlns() is absolutely obscene. The sort of thing that would give HP Lovecraft nightmares! Hehehe - they'll have to hog-tie me and beat me into submission before I do it willingly ... ... but they save TWO SECONDS on each request!!! LOL - what justification ;-) Instead of JSP Im using XHTML and inserting my dynamic content into DOMs. No ugly mixing of code and layout. All the dynamic stuff is done in a good clean pure java classes, while the layout is in nice well formed xhtml. And yes! this IS a struts based application! - thats one of the great things about doing mvc with struts - you arent tied to using JSP as your presentation technology (though the wealth of tags struts provided makes it very tempting.) Yes, struts is super when it comes to flexibility :-) Personally, having the view that each developer is responsible for the quaity and correctness of whatever he turns out, I don't mind JSPs for presentation. I mean - I know what good and bad is - I choose good. It's kind of like when I was in college and one of my peers said something about arrays in C not having bounds-checking. This came up because there was a BOOK teaching people that ARRAYS IN C START AT 1! LOL What it comes down to is knowing your tools, knowing how to use them to the best of your ability, and being willing not to compromise on things that really matter. Scriplets in JSP, IMHO, really matter - they don't belong there. I'd rather have JSPs than have the overhead of having to dynamically translate XML into something else for each request (that _is_ how it works, right?) Just use them correctly and there's no issue :-) This is why organizations have policy - to enforce things like this. Make a policy :-) Peace, Eddie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
I appreciate all suggestions ;-) I'll start off with the book I mentioned and proceed from there as I feel the need. I love to learn about processes though - they are what enable us to do what we do easier/faster/better. I especially like to hear comments like Oh - that was a super read. It presented enough material I could apply the concepts right away! I think the end goal in reading any book (of a technical nature) is to improve your abilities by doing so. I know I have room for improvement :-) UML/UP is one (really quite large) thing that I think would help me out tons. Thanks :-) Eddie Michael Delamere wrote: just to confuse you :-) I bought the bool called UML and the unified process and thought it to be very well structured and easy to learn. Regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
See my comments below... -Original Message- From: Juan Alvarado (Struts List) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:45 PM To: Struts Subject: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Hello folks: Recently I had a discussion with an ex-colleague of mine regarding struts. I explained to him that it's an awesome framework and that it has everything for developing web applications using MVC. comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment His response was something to the effect of I'm sure struts is great but we are very happy with our architecture here and that it has all the benefits of struts and that they are 100% J2EE compliant and sun pattern compliant and blah blah blah He also made it a point to point out that his architecture is just J2EE and no third party libraries. I seecomment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment I tried telling him that struts was all J2EE also and that it was written in pure java. His response was that it was a third party package on top of J2EE. He then tried to tell me what patterns he uses for his architecture and those consisted of: Service to Work, with Servlet Front Strategy, Displatcher in Controller Strategy, and JSP View Strategy, Value Objects,and Data Access Objects. That's interesting. more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments more comments I tried to tell him that all that was nice and dandy, but with struts he could use all those patterns with struts and in the process save himself a ton of time in developing his application(s). Basically this was his response: I'm just against anything other than the base stuff. I don't like reallying on any pieces that are from other parties or that put layers on top of Java... to be honest, I'm just not interested. I'm sure that many of the people on there will have lots to say about why struts is great, but I already looked into it, along with all other options, and saw no benefits beyond adopting J2EE and Sun's core J2EE patterns. There isn't anything struts does that our architecture now doesn't do, and it doesn't do it any easier, so why would I bother? I only have one thing to say about that! comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment So my question is as follows... Isn't this person wrong in saying that struts puts layers on top of Java and that struts doesn't do anything easier than his sun based architecture?? If that was the case, why aren't we using his architecture/framework?? I mean as far as I know, sun doesn't have anything close to what struts is, and if truth be told, aren't they(Sun) using at least one of the struts creators for their own Java Server Faces framework. I would love to hear what the community's reaction to these comments are. comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment comment Sorry for the long post, but I think this one was worth it. That's ok. I only had a few comments to point out. ** Juan Alvarado Internet Developer -- Manduca Management (786)552-0504 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AOL Instant Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Juan Alvarado Internet Developer -- Manduca Management (786)552-0504 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AOL Instant Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] but seriously... You can lead a horse (err...Jackass) to water, but you can't make them drink. Having the power of persuasion over people is something I, unfortunately, was not born with. That's probably why I am not in Sales. I've also struggled to explain to people the benefits of building on top of what others have accomplished. And some people are just too proud to admit that someone else (whom they have deemed is beneath them) might know more (or at least more about something specific) than them. Sometimes, the best technique is to just sit back and give people enough rope to hang themselves. I've done it in the past, I'm doing it right now on the contract I am on, and I'm sure I'll have to do it in the future. For now, I'll just go on doing my thing here on the struts-users (and a few others) list. I'll keep donating my time and talents (what few I actually have ;) to help others grow and learn. I think I've learned more just hanging out on the jakarta lists than at all the jobs/contracts I've had. Well, I hope you've enjoyed my
RE: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
1. Is this framework he co-developed propietary (yes, I would think)? 2. Given 1, what does he plan to do when he changes jobs? Re-build the entire framework? 3. I seriously doubt that the architecture he espouses does everything Struts can do. It would basically have to mimic the entire tag library in addition to the architecture. 4. Struts is open source, so there's no layer here that's any different than the propietary layer they are using. Struts is also a sun-based architecture, b.t.w., though that means nothing, as anything written entirely in Java is sun-based. Basically, they have a pre-existing framework that is very similar to Struts, probably developed before Struts gained popularity. Good for them, they were riding the wave, and if their application works well, there's no point in strutifying it. To suggest that new applications be developed with their framework is ludicrous, however--why bother maintaining a propietary framework when there's a more feature-rich, widely used, free, open-source one that is maintained by many more developers? Finally, Java is founded on the notions of layers in the first place--API and layer are synonymous. I suppose your colleage would rather not use the Servlet API at all, since you can just work directly with the request/response in *Java*? JSP is a presentation layer--would he rather just stick to Servlets and write directly to the response? I could say more, but my fingers tire... :) peace, Joe -Original Message- From: Juan Alvarado (Struts List) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:45 PM To: Struts Subject: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns Hello folks: Recently I had a discussion with an ex-colleague of mine regarding struts. I explained to him that it's an awesome framework and that it has everything for developing web applications using MVC. His response was something to the effect of I'm sure struts is great but we are very happy with our architecture here and that it has all the benefits of struts and that they are 100% J2EE compliant and sun pattern compliant and blah blah blah He also made it a point to point out that his architecture is just J2EE and no third party libraries. I tried telling him that struts was all J2EE also and that it was written in pure java. His response was that it was a third party package on top of J2EE. He then tried to tell me what patterns he uses for his architecture and those consisted of: Service to Work, with Servlet Front Strategy, Displatcher in Controller Strategy, and JSP View Strategy, Value Objects,and Data Access Objects. I tried to tell him that all that was nice and dandy, but with struts he could use all those patterns with struts and in the process save himself a ton of time in developing his application(s). Basically this was his response: I'm just against anything other than the base stuff. I don't like reallying on any pieces that are from other parties or that put layers on top of Java... to be honest, I'm just not interested. I'm sure that many of the people on there will have lots to say about why struts is great, but I already looked into it, along with all other options, and saw no benefits beyond adopting J2EE and Sun's core J2EE patterns. There isn't anything struts does that our architecture now doesn't do, and it doesn't do it any easier, so why would I bother? So my question is as follows... Isn't this person wrong in saying that struts puts layers on top of Java and that struts doesn't do anything easier than his sun based architecture?? If that was the case, why aren't we using his architecture/framework?? I mean as far as I know, sun doesn't have anything close to what struts is, and if truth be told, aren't they(Sun) using at least one of the struts creators for their own Java Server Faces framework. I would love to hear what the community's reaction to these comments are. Sorry for the long post, but I think this one was worth it. ** Juan Alvarado Internet Developer -- Manduca Management (786)552-0504 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AOL Instant Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Juan Alvarado Internet Developer -- Manduca Management (786)552-0504 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AOL Instant Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
-Original Message- From: Joe Barefoot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] snip 2. Given 1, what does he plan to do when he changes jobs? Re-build the entire framework? snip This is an excellent point. At my last job we used a proprietary app framework (for various valid reasons), but when I moved across country and tried to find a new job, I realized just how little I knew about Java. Our framework had encapsulated both the persistence and presentation layers, so all I had to concentrate on was the business logic. Which is good, but when it came time to move on, I really had to scramble (still scrambling, actually) to learn all this stuff that a good Java programmer is supposed to know. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
Joe Barefoot wrote: Finally, Java is founded on the notions of layers in the first place--API and layer are synonymous. I suppose your colleage would rather not use the Servlet API at all, since you can just work directly with the request/response in *Java*? JSP is a presentation layer--would he rather just stick to Servlets and write directly to the response? You know what's insane? People do that! They think saving 2 seconds (some do) is worth all the extra hassle of actually coding HTML as out.println(...) statements. Now, don't ask about maintenance, as speed is of the utmost concern. Why? I have no clue! LOL My wife actually works for a shop that went away from JSPs for presentation - has no MVC ideas at all - and ... man I'm glad I don't have her job :-) I'd probably get the boot after I told them what I thought about their approach. She's not as forward as am I though, so she just plucks along churning out things lol. Be scared - people do this :-O Later, Eddie -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Vs. Sun J2EE Compliance and Design Patterns
The pre-release Chapter 1 of Chuck's book has a section on this... about 15 pages down or so and explains the syndrome that your ex-colleague is demonstrating. ...Tell him that it's curable though :) Juan Alvarado (Struts List) wrote: Hello folks: Recently I had a discussion with an ex-colleague of mine regarding struts. I explained to him that it's an awesome framework and that it has everything for developing web applications using MVC. His response was something to the effect of I'm sure struts is great but we are very happy with our architecture here and that it has all the benefits of struts and that they are 100% J2EE compliant and sun pattern compliant and blah blah blah He also made it a point to point out that his architecture is just J2EE and no third party libraries. I tried telling him that struts was all J2EE also and that it was written in pure java. His response was that it was a third party package on top of J2EE. He then tried to tell me what patterns he uses for his architecture and those consisted of: Service to Work, with Servlet Front Strategy, Displatcher in Controller Strategy, and JSP View Strategy, Value Objects,and Data Access Objects. I tried to tell him that all that was nice and dandy, but with struts he could use all those patterns with struts and in the process save himself a ton of time in developing his application(s). Basically this was his response: I'm just against anything other than the base stuff. I don't like reallying on any pieces that are from other parties or that put layers on top of Java... to be honest, I'm just not interested. I'm sure that many of the people on there will have lots to say about why struts is great, but I already looked into it, along with all other options, and saw no benefits beyond adopting J2EE and Sun's core J2EE patterns. There isn't anything struts does that our architecture now doesn't do, and it doesn't do it any easier, so why would I bother? So my question is as follows... Isn't this person wrong in saying that struts puts layers on top of Java and that struts doesn't do anything easier than his sun based architecture?? If that was the case, why aren't we using his architecture/framework?? I mean as far as I know, sun doesn't have anything close to what struts is, and if truth be told, aren't they(Sun) using at least one of the struts creators for their own Java Server Faces framework. I would love to hear what the community's reaction to these comments are. Sorry for the long post, but I think this one was worth it. ** Juan Alvarado Internet Developer -- Manduca Management (786)552-0504 [EMAIL PROTECTED] AOL Instant Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: For additional commands, e-mail: - Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
