Re: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[@Basebeans.com]

Subject: Re: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 ===
EJBs, as I have said before sometimes have negative impact on design, 
productivity and performance.

SHURTLEFF,ROBERT (HP-FtCollins,ex1) wrote:

> Joseph,
> 
> Have you done any testing against HP Application Server?
> 
> It is also free.
> 
> I would be interested in any comments that you may have!
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Joseph Barefoot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tue, April 16, 2002 11:29 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't
>>
> so we're using Struts
> 
>>since it's free.  But we've found out that it's very powerful and very
>>
> easy to work with.
> 
> Struts is cool, eh?  If you want to use a free app server, check out
> www.jboss.org
> It's open-source, fast as hell, infinitely configurable, deployment is
> simplicity itself, and you can download an install zip with Tomcat already
> fully integrated.  You can also configure it use your preferred JSP
> engine/web server.  JBoss's auto-deployer will take an EAR file, deploy the
> EJB jar file(s) within it in its EJB container, and deploy the war file(s)
> contained within it to the integrated web server, faster than you can say
> "No way!".  It support runtime re-deployment of EJBs and uses a
> no-compilation .class file generation mechanism to generate the necessary
> container-specific EJB stub & skeleton classes (very fast).  You can deploy
> 'vanilla' EJB jars, or customize them with JBoss-specific deployment
> descriptors, your choice.  Compare THAT with Weblogic, or, horror of
> horrors, WebSphere.
> 
> b.t.w, I have tested direct client integration (not web-based) using EJBs
> with Weblogic, WebSphere, JBoss, and IPlanet, and JBoss wins hands down in
> all categories, except for clustering, which is where Weblogic shines.
> Porting from JBoss to another server is also simplicity itself, since you
> can use generic EJB jars for deployment in JBoss, none of this app
> server-specific required crap you have to do with the others.
> 
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Joe Barefoot
> 
> 
> plug from JBoss's site:
> 
> 'JBoss beat out BEA and IBM to sweep the JavaWorld Editors' Choice 2002
> Award for Best Java Application Server. "JBoss stopped being an application
> server long time ago -- it is now officially a phenomenon," says ECA judge
> Humphrey Sheil. Discover for yourself why JBoss gets more monthly downloads
> than any other app-server.'
> 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[SHURTLEFF,ROBERT (HP-FtCollins,ex1)]

Joseph,

Have you done any testing against HP Application Server?

It is also free.

I would be interested in any comments that you may have!

Robert


-Original Message-
From: Joseph Barefoot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tue, April 16, 2002 11:29 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?



> Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't
so we're using Struts
> since it's free.  But we've found out that it's very powerful and very
easy to work with.

Struts is cool, eh?  If you want to use a free app server, check out
www.jboss.org
It's open-source, fast as hell, infinitely configurable, deployment is
simplicity itself, and you can download an install zip with Tomcat already
fully integrated.  You can also configure it use your preferred JSP
engine/web server.  JBoss's auto-deployer will take an EAR file, deploy the
EJB jar file(s) within it in its EJB container, and deploy the war file(s)
contained within it to the integrated web server, faster than you can say
"No way!".  It support runtime re-deployment of EJBs and uses a
no-compilation .class file generation mechanism to generate the necessary
container-specific EJB stub & skeleton classes (very fast).  You can deploy
'vanilla' EJB jars, or customize them with JBoss-specific deployment
descriptors, your choice.  Compare THAT with Weblogic, or, horror of
horrors, WebSphere.

b.t.w, I have tested direct client integration (not web-based) using EJBs
with Weblogic, WebSphere, JBoss, and IPlanet, and JBoss wins hands down in
all categories, except for clustering, which is where Weblogic shines.
Porting from JBoss to another server is also simplicity itself, since you
can use generic EJB jars for deployment in JBoss, none of this app
server-specific required crap you have to do with the others.


cheers,

Joe Barefoot


plug from JBoss's site:

'JBoss beat out BEA and IBM to sweep the JavaWorld Editors' Choice 2002
Award for Best Java Application Server. "JBoss stopped being an application
server long time ago -- it is now officially a phenomenon," says ECA judge
Humphrey Sheil. Discover for yourself why JBoss gets more monthly downloads
than any other app-server.'




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RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[Joseph Barefoot]

> Heck, we'd love it if our employer would buy an App Server but they won't
so we're using Struts
> since it's free.  But we've found out that it's very powerful and very
easy to work with.

Struts is cool, eh?  If you want to use a free app server, check out
www.jboss.org
It's open-source, fast as hell, infinitely configurable, deployment is
simplicity itself, and you can download an install zip with Tomcat already
fully integrated.  You can also configure it use your preferred JSP
engine/web server.  JBoss's auto-deployer will take an EAR file, deploy the
EJB jar file(s) within it in its EJB container, and deploy the war file(s)
contained within it to the integrated web server, faster than you can say
"No way!".  It support runtime re-deployment of EJBs and uses a
no-compilation .class file generation mechanism to generate the necessary
container-specific EJB stub & skeleton classes (very fast).  You can deploy
'vanilla' EJB jars, or customize them with JBoss-specific deployment
descriptors, your choice.  Compare THAT with Weblogic, or, horror of
horrors, WebSphere.

b.t.w, I have tested direct client integration (not web-based) using EJBs
with Weblogic, WebSphere, JBoss, and IPlanet, and JBoss wins hands down in
all categories, except for clustering, which is where Weblogic shines.
Porting from JBoss to another server is also simplicity itself, since you
can use generic EJB jars for deployment in JBoss, none of this app
server-specific required crap you have to do with the others.


cheers,

Joe Barefoot


plug from JBoss's site:

'JBoss beat out BEA and IBM to sweep the JavaWorld Editors' Choice 2002
Award for Best Java Application Server. "JBoss stopped being an application
server long time ago -- it is now officially a phenomenon," says ECA judge
Humphrey Sheil. Discover for yourself why JBoss gets more monthly downloads
than any other app-server.'




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RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[Cakalic, James]

I obviously missed part of this discussion -- a negative side effect of
trying to do my job while keeping up with this list. And I don't have a lot
of time to respond to this fully. However, I find it necessary to disagree
with the contention that JavaBeans are Session Beans, DAO classes are Entity
Beans, and JMS is Message Beans. What I think you've missed by this
over-simplification is the intended role of the EJB container in providing
services and capabilities that you would otherwise be developing yourself:
transactions, security, resource connectivity (e.g. Naming, Mail, Database),
distribution, failover, caching, scaling, and declaritive configuration.
Could you write these? Sure. Would use use available specifications and
implementations of JDBC, JTA, JTS, JNDI, JavaMail, etc. You bet. But that is
exactly what the specification is about -- ensuring a choice of robust
compliant container implementations which can be used to host your
application components. And while EJBs aren't necessarily the hardest thing
to ever come along in application development, I wouldn't so easily dismiss
them. There is a _lot_ to know if one is to make effective use of the
technology.

Perhaps a re-reading of some of the J2EE docs, including the J2EE Tutorial
and the Patterns section of the BluePrints, will emphasize the breadth and
depth of the technology. That is, if you are interested in learning more.

The question ultimately isn't "Struts vs. EJB" but whether you intend to
construct using "Struts with EJB" or "Struts without EJB". Both are
possible. Both are valid. Both have pros and cons. Each may be a valid (or
invalid) architectural decision depending on the problem and environment.

Best regards,
Jim Cakalic

> -Original Message-
> From: Kousek, Theron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 11:18 AM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> > As for whether EJBs is going to be required in the near 
> future for you
> > to get a job, who's to say? 
> 
> Sadly, companies are very biased towards people who don't 
> have specific
> product experience in many cases.  Don't take this the wrong 
> way but EJB's
> are not all that difficult.  I have read a book on them and tried some
> things with the reference implementation.  No big deal.  So 
> you have a home
> and a remote interface.  So you have session beans (our 
> struts Java beans
> are basically the same thing), entity beans (We wrote a bunch 
> of db-bind
> classes to be used within our struts application to perform this) and
> message beans (I used JMS in cases to simulate message 
> beans).  Ok...  So
> why do so many companies discredit individuals who lack a 
> specific product
> experience even if they have decent OO skills?  :-)   A 
> friend of ours who
> has done EJB for a year says EJB's are very easy.  What's difficult is
> understanding how they all work together.  But that's OO and 
> not EJB.  I
> guess since this is an Employer's market (at least in the 
> Phoenix and Denver
> area), they can put tight strict requirements around.  Heck, 
> we'd love it if
> our employer would buy an App Server but they won't so we're 
> using Struts
> since it's free.  But we've found out that it's very powerful 
> and very easy
> to work with.
> 
> thanks for your insight...
> 
> Theron
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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> 

RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[Kousek, Theron]

> As for whether EJBs is going to be required in the near future for you
> to get a job, who's to say? 

Sadly, companies are very biased towards people who don't have specific
product experience in many cases.  Don't take this the wrong way but EJB's
are not all that difficult.  I have read a book on them and tried some
things with the reference implementation.  No big deal.  So you have a home
and a remote interface.  So you have session beans (our struts Java beans
are basically the same thing), entity beans (We wrote a bunch of db-bind
classes to be used within our struts application to perform this) and
message beans (I used JMS in cases to simulate message beans).  Ok...  So
why do so many companies discredit individuals who lack a specific product
experience even if they have decent OO skills?  :-)   A friend of ours who
has done EJB for a year says EJB's are very easy.  What's difficult is
understanding how they all work together.  But that's OO and not EJB.  I
guess since this is an Employer's market (at least in the Phoenix and Denver
area), they can put tight strict requirements around.  Heck, we'd love it if
our employer would buy an App Server but they won't so we're using Struts
since it's free.  But we've found out that it's very powerful and very easy
to work with.

thanks for your insight...

Theron

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RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[Maris Orbidans]

> for the last 4 months and don't mind it.  I see it as a "poor 
> mans" EJB.  

"Poor man's" EJB   ?   :-)

No, EJB deals with very different problems.

> Also, seems like Struts is more useful for "smaller 
> companies" and EJB is
> more suitable for large corporations.  Is this pretty much a valid
> statement?

We use STRUTS and EJBs.   I think that the best approach is to use STRUTS and EJB 
together.

Maris

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RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[Brett Porter]

I prefer apples to oranges because they don't take their name from their
colour.

FYI, we use Struts with EJBs. EJBs are the M of MVC, Struts is the VC. There
is little to no overlap. If you don't need the container support provided
for EJBs (remote invocation, pooling, transactions, etc), then you use plain
JBs as the M and struts as the VC.

(That may be simplifying it somewhat, but you get my drift).

Cheers,
Brett

-Original Message-
From: Kousek, Theron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, 13 April 2002 10:03 AM
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?


Not that I am looking for a job (I am not), I have been working with struts
for the last 4 months and don't mind it.  I see it as a "poor mans" EJB.  I
have no EJB experience but I don't think transitioning over to EJB after
working with struts as a big deal.  After all, they both act on server-side
beans.  Yeah, EJB has entity beans and session beans but you can easily
simulate both of those types of beans using JSP/Struts/tomcat.  Since
there's a gazillion people on the planet now that know how to program in
Java, getting an EJB position will be next to impossible (I guess) if you
don't have EJB experience.  Companies now have so many available Java
programmers to pick and choose from and are in a position to require salary
cuts for existing Java programmers on staff due to the plethoria of Java
developers available to work who would be willing to work for less$Being
a Java programmer is no longer an elite skill.   Now it's as common as
coding in Cobol once was  :-(   I have already read about the salaries of
Java programmers declining and I expect the trend to continue due to the bad
economy and the oversupply of qualified Java programmers in the market
place.  This is why so many companies can now demand specific product
experience with Java (ie, "if you don't have 1 year of Bea Weblogic
experience, see you later!!  Next person please...")...

SO back to the Struts vs EJB issue:
If one is comfortable with struts, how much more difficult would EJB be to
get comfortable with?  

Also, seems like Struts is more useful for "smaller companies" and EJB is
more suitable for large corporations.  Is this pretty much a valid
statement?

thanks...

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RE: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[James Higginbotham]

EJB and Struts are not the same thing. Struts is an "open source
framework for building Web applications that integrates with standard
technologies like Java Servlets, JavaBeans, and JavaServer Pages (JSP)."
Its goal is to do the mundane work of converting HTTP parameter
information into more Java-friendly models, as well as provide an MVC
architecture for your J2EE application. While you can construct an
application using struts and without EJBs, you can also construct an
application using both struts and EJBs. (For that matter, you can create
a J2EE application without struts and without EJBs, but why would you?
:). 

I would suggest you pick up a printed or online copy of the J2EE
Blueprints from Sun. There, it will outline the fundamental principles
of the J2EE architecture, the different tiers, where servlets, JSPs, web
frameworks, and EJBs fit in, and even some best practices and patterns.
>From there, you can determine if EJBs fit your applications' needs. 

As for whether EJBs is going to be required in the near future for you
to get a job, who's to say? But, I have found that many companies in the
Austin area have to make this decision before they begin their project,
so knowing at least how EJBs work and what the decision points are for
using or staying away from EJBs is necessary for any good software
designer (and a requirement for architects, of course). Just like any
distributed component architecture, EJBs require careful planning and
can be a painful decision to a project if the early architecture
decisions and daily decisions you make in your design are not well
thought out. I've seen projects die a horrible death from poor planning
and lack of overall architectural planning. When done right, EJBs can
make your life must easier, since there are many benefits provided to
your application that you gain for free from J2EE that you would have
had to build by hand otherwise.

HTH,
James

> -Original Message-
> From: Kousek, Theron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 7:03 PM
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?
> 
> 
> Not that I am looking for a job (I am not), I have been 
> working with struts for the last 4 months and don't mind it.  
> I see it as a "poor mans" EJB.  I have no EJB experience but 
> I don't think transitioning over to EJB after working with 
> struts as a big deal.  After all, they both act on 
> server-side beans.  Yeah, EJB has entity beans and session 
> beans but you can easily simulate both of those types of 
> beans using JSP/Struts/tomcat.  Since there's a gazillion 
> people on the planet now that know how to program in Java, 
> getting an EJB position will be next to impossible (I guess) 
> if you don't have EJB experience.  Companies now have so many 
> available Java programmers to pick and choose from and are in 
> a position to require salary cuts for existing Java 
> programmers on staff due to the plethoria of Java
> developers available to work who would be willing to work for 
> less$Being
> a Java programmer is no longer an elite skill.   Now it's as common as
> coding in Cobol once was  :-(   I have already read about the 
> salaries of
> Java programmers declining and I expect the trend to continue 
> due to the bad economy and the oversupply of qualified Java 
> programmers in the market place.  This is why so many 
> companies can now demand specific product experience with 
> Java (ie, "if you don't have 1 year of Bea Weblogic 
> experience, see you later!!  Next person please...")...
> 
> SO back to the Struts vs EJB issue:
> If one is comfortable with struts, how much more difficult 
> would EJB be to get comfortable with?  
> 
> Also, seems like Struts is more useful for "smaller 
> companies" and EJB is more suitable for large corporations.  
> Is this pretty much a valid statement?
> 
> thanks...
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:struts-user-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 

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Re: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[Francisco Hernandez]

I dont think you can directly compare Struts to EJB since both solve
different problems.. but you can use EJB with Struts..

- Original Message -
From: "Kousek, Theron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:03 PM
Subject: Struts vs EJB, thoughts?


> Not that I am looking for a job (I am not), I have been working with
struts
> for the last 4 months and don't mind it.  I see it as a "poor mans" EJB.
I
> have no EJB experience but I don't think transitioning over to EJB after
> working with struts as a big deal.  After all, they both act on
server-side
> beans.  Yeah, EJB has entity beans and session beans but you can easily
> simulate both of those types of beans using JSP/Struts/tomcat.  Since
> there's a gazillion people on the planet now that know how to program in
> Java, getting an EJB position will be next to impossible (I guess) if you
> don't have EJB experience.  Companies now have so many available Java
> programmers to pick and choose from and are in a position to require
salary
> cuts for existing Java programmers on staff due to the plethoria of Java
> developers available to work who would be willing to work for less$
Being
> a Java programmer is no longer an elite skill.   Now it's as common as
> coding in Cobol once was  :-(   I have already read about the salaries of
> Java programmers declining and I expect the trend to continue due to the
bad
> economy and the oversupply of qualified Java programmers in the market
> place.  This is why so many companies can now demand specific product
> experience with Java (ie, "if you don't have 1 year of Bea Weblogic
> experience, see you later!!  Next person please...")...
>
> SO back to the Struts vs EJB issue:
> If one is comfortable with struts, how much more difficult would EJB be to
> get comfortable with?
>
> Also, seems like Struts is more useful for "smaller companies" and EJB is
> more suitable for large corporations.  Is this pretty much a valid
> statement?
>
> thanks...
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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Struts vs EJB, thoughts?

[Kousek, Theron]

Not that I am looking for a job (I am not), I have been working with struts
for the last 4 months and don't mind it.  I see it as a "poor mans" EJB.  I
have no EJB experience but I don't think transitioning over to EJB after
working with struts as a big deal.  After all, they both act on server-side
beans.  Yeah, EJB has entity beans and session beans but you can easily
simulate both of those types of beans using JSP/Struts/tomcat.  Since
there's a gazillion people on the planet now that know how to program in
Java, getting an EJB position will be next to impossible (I guess) if you
don't have EJB experience.  Companies now have so many available Java
programmers to pick and choose from and are in a position to require salary
cuts for existing Java programmers on staff due to the plethoria of Java
developers available to work who would be willing to work for less$Being
a Java programmer is no longer an elite skill.   Now it's as common as
coding in Cobol once was  :-(   I have already read about the salaries of
Java programmers declining and I expect the trend to continue due to the bad
economy and the oversupply of qualified Java programmers in the market
place.  This is why so many companies can now demand specific product
experience with Java (ie, "if you don't have 1 year of Bea Weblogic
experience, see you later!!  Next person please...")...

SO back to the Struts vs EJB issue:
If one is comfortable with struts, how much more difficult would EJB be to
get comfortable with?  

Also, seems like Struts is more useful for "smaller companies" and EJB is
more suitable for large corporations.  Is this pretty much a valid
statement?

thanks...

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