[Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
I would go further. Can we invite the children to give us their stories? They should be wikified, blogged, made the subject of articles in the geek and education press, and spread even more widely than that. Better still, can we invite the schools where this children are learning and sharing to celebrate them using Sugar tools to create interactive presentations? On Wed, September 19, 2012 10:52 am, James Simmons wrote: > Walter, > > First, congrats on the grandchild. > > Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of Sugar Activities were > written by children who grew up with Sugar. That is an incredible > accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO website had a > Collection > of those Activities. If something like that existed I could see what > kinds > of Activities they were doing, how many were programs written for other > environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely Sugar Activities, > who the developers are, what Sugar features are they using and not using, > how popular the Activities are, etc. > > It would also give our younger developers a way to stand up and be > counted. > > James Simmons -- Edward Mokurai (默雷/निशब्दगर्ज/نشبدگرج) Cherlin Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Replacing_Textbooks ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Walter, First, congrats on the grandchild. Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of Sugar Activities were written by children who grew up with Sugar. That is an incredible accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO website had a Collection of those Activities. If something like that existed I could see what kinds of Activities they were doing, how many were programs written for other environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely Sugar Activities, who the developers are, what Sugar features are they using and not using, how popular the Activities are, etc. It would also give our younger developers a way to stand up and be counted. James Simmons ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/19 James Simmons : > Walter, > > First, congrats on the grandchild. > > Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of Sugar Activities were > written by children who grew up with Sugar. That is an incredible > accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO website had a Collection > of those Activities. If something like that existed I could see what kinds > of Activities they were doing, how many were programs written for other > environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely Sugar Activities, > who the developers are, what Sugar features are they using and not using, > how popular the Activities are, etc. Hello James, I feel identified with what Walter described so I dare to answer. I'm from Uruguay and I'm thirteen years old. I'm one of the activity developers in transition to Sugar contributor. I don't know other young Sugar contributors outside Uruguay, so I'll tell you about the situation here. About one year ago, children made activities often as a hobbie, that activities had not a reasonable aim and they weren't very well integrated with Sugar. Some examples: Agubrowser by Agustin Zubiaga: This activity was based on webkit when Browse used python-hulahop (gecko). http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4419 Sugar File Manager by Ignacio Rodríguez and me: Based on Sugar Commander and JAMexplorer, with some improvements. http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4494 Actually, we make activities thinking in its utility, but our aim is still learn with what we do. I leave here some of the activities that make us feel proud: TerronesWeeper: A "mines" game for CeibalJAM!, the Uruguayan OLPC community, which is represented with a Terrón[1]. http://activities.sugarlabs.org//en-US/sugar/addon/4520 Chart: Made with help of adults and now available at the official OLPC build. http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4534 Graph Plotter: Mathematical function plotter. http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Graph_Plotter JAMath: Other game for CeibalJAM. I'm not sure, but I think this activity is only available in Spanish. http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4595 Sorry if I forget other activities. Cheers, Daniel. [1] http://ceibaljam.org/drupal/?q=node/741 ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
> From: fran...@sugarlabs.org > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:42:37 -0300 > To: nices...@gmail.com > CC: i...@lists.sugarlabs.org; sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org; > community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org; walter.ben...@gmail.com > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > > 2012/9/19 James Simmons : > > Walter, > > > > First, congrats on the grandchild. > > > > Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of Sugar Activities were > > written by children who grew up with Sugar. That is an incredible > > accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO website had a Collection > > of those Activities. If something like that existed I could see what kinds > > of Activities they were doing, how many were programs written for other > > environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely Sugar Activities, > > who the developers are, what Sugar features are they using and not using, > > how popular the Activities are, etc. > > Hello James, > I feel identified with what Walter described so I dare to answer. I'm > from Uruguay and I'm thirteen years old. I'm one of the activity > developers in transition to Sugar contributor. I don't know other > young Sugar contributors outside Uruguay, so I'll tell you about the > situation here. > > About one year ago, children made activities often as a hobbie, that > activities had not a reasonable aim and they weren't very well > integrated with Sugar. > > Some examples: > Agubrowser by Agustin Zubiaga: > This activity was based on webkit when Browse used python-hulahop (gecko). > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4419 > Sugar File Manager by Ignacio Rodríguez and me: > Based on Sugar Commander and JAMexplorer, with some improvements. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4494 > > Actually, we make activities thinking in its utility, but our aim is > still learn with what we do. > I leave here some of the activities that make us feel proud: > > TerronesWeeper: A "mines" game for CeibalJAM!, the Uruguayan OLPC > community, which is represented with a Terrón[1]. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org//en-US/sugar/addon/4520 > > Chart: Made with help of adults and now available at the official OLPC build. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4534 > > Graph Plotter: Mathematical function plotter. > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Graph_Plotter > > JAMath: Other game for CeibalJAM. I'm not sure, but I think this > activity is only available in Spanish. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4595 > > Sorry if I forget other activities. One more of Cristhoper Travieso; Convert: http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4597 > > Cheers, > Daniel. > > [1] http://ceibaljam.org/drupal/?q=node/741 > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Alan Jhonn Aguiar Schwyn wrote: >> From: fran...@sugarlabs.org >> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:42:37 -0300 >> To: nices...@gmail.com >> CC: i...@lists.sugarlabs.org; sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org; >> community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org; walter.ben...@gmail.com >> Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > >> >> 2012/9/19 James Simmons : >> > Walter, >> > >> > First, congrats on the grandchild. >> > >> > Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of Sugar Activities >> > were >> > written by children who grew up with Sugar. That is an incredible >> > accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO website had a >> > Collection >> > of those Activities. If something like that existed I could see what >> > kinds >> > of Activities they were doing, how many were programs written for other >> > environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely Sugar >> > Activities, >> > who the developers are, what Sugar features are they using and not >> > using, >> > how popular the Activities are, etc. >> >> Hello James, >> I feel identified with what Walter described so I dare to answer. I'm >> from Uruguay and I'm thirteen years old. I'm one of the activity >> developers in transition to Sugar contributor. I don't know other >> young Sugar contributors outside Uruguay, so I'll tell you about the >> situation here. >> >> About one year ago, children made activities often as a hobbie, that >> activities had not a reasonable aim and they weren't very well >> integrated with Sugar. >> >> Some examples: >> Agubrowser by Agustin Zubiaga: >> This activity was based on webkit when Browse used python-hulahop (gecko). >> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4419 >> Sugar File Manager by Ignacio Rodríguez and me: >> Based on Sugar Commander and JAMexplorer, with some improvements. >> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4494 >> >> Actually, we make activities thinking in its utility, but our aim is >> still learn with what we do. >> I leave here some of the activities that make us feel proud: >> >> TerronesWeeper: A "mines" game for CeibalJAM!, the Uruguayan OLPC >> community, which is represented with a Terrón[1]. >> http://activities.sugarlabs.org//en-US/sugar/addon/4520 >> >> Chart: Made with help of adults and now available at the official OLPC >> build. >> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4534 >> >> Graph Plotter: Mathematical function plotter. >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Graph_Plotter >> >> JAMath: Other game for CeibalJAM. I'm not sure, but I think this >> activity is only available in Spanish. >> http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4595 >> >> Sorry if I forget other activities. > > > One more of Cristhoper Travieso; Convert: > > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4597 > > >> >> Cheers, >> Daniel. >> >> [1] http://ceibaljam.org/drupal/?q=node/741 >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel There are some from outside of .UY as well... but if you look for http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/user/1862 (24 activities) or http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/user/5067 (8 activities) or http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/user/3643 (6 activities) or http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/user/283 (6 activities) regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/19 Walter Bender : > There are some from outside of .UY as well... Walter, Can you tell us about the activities outside of .UY, please? I never hear about them and would be of interest for some people in these mailing lists, including myself. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Daniel, I'm going to try these out when I get home. It looks like you guys have done some really good work. You may know that Sugar Commander was one of mine. I'm looking forward to seeing what you did with it. The other stuff looks impressive too. I agree with Walter that having young people work on Sugar Activities and on Sugar itself is an important demonstration that what we're trying to do with OLPC and Sugar actually works. James Simmons On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:42 AM, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > 2012/9/19 James Simmons : > > Walter, > > > > First, congrats on the grandchild. > > > > Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of Sugar Activities were > > written by children who grew up with Sugar. That is an incredible > > accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO website had a > Collection > > of those Activities. If something like that existed I could see what > kinds > > of Activities they were doing, how many were programs written for other > > environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely Sugar Activities, > > who the developers are, what Sugar features are they using and not using, > > how popular the Activities are, etc. > > Hello James, > I feel identified with what Walter described so I dare to answer. I'm > from Uruguay and I'm thirteen years old. I'm one of the activity > developers in transition to Sugar contributor. I don't know other > young Sugar contributors outside Uruguay, so I'll tell you about the > situation here. > > About one year ago, children made activities often as a hobbie, that > activities had not a reasonable aim and they weren't very well > integrated with Sugar. > > Some examples: > Agubrowser by Agustin Zubiaga: > This activity was based on webkit when Browse used python-hulahop (gecko). > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4419 > Sugar File Manager by Ignacio Rodríguez and me: > Based on Sugar Commander and JAMexplorer, with some improvements. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4494 > > Actually, we make activities thinking in its utility, but our aim is > still learn with what we do. > I leave here some of the activities that make us feel proud: > > TerronesWeeper: A "mines" game for CeibalJAM!, the Uruguayan OLPC > community, which is represented with a Terrón[1]. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org//en-US/sugar/addon/4520 > > Chart: Made with help of adults and now available at the official OLPC > build. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4534 > > Graph Plotter: Mathematical function plotter. > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Graph_Plotter > > JAMath: Other game for CeibalJAM. I'm not sure, but I think this > activity is only available in Spanish. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4595 > > Sorry if I forget other activities. > > Cheers, > Daniel. > > [1] http://ceibaljam.org/drupal/?q=node/741 > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 3:04 PM, James Simmons wrote: > Daniel, > > I'm going to try these out when I get home. It looks like you guys have > done some really good work. You may know that Sugar Commander was one of > mine. I'm looking forward to seeing what you did with it. The other stuff > looks impressive too. > > I agree with Walter that having young people work on Sugar Activities and on > Sugar itself is an important demonstration that what we're trying to do with > OLPC and Sugar actually works. > > James Simmons Daniel has been diligent about setting up i18n on his activities; but it would be wonderful if some of our more experienced activity developers could mentor some of these other young developers on setting their activities up for translation on Pootle. This will sometimes involve a switch to en_US strings in the code-base from Spanish originals, as English is generally the common language of our localizers. Please don't make me try to recruit Spanish-speaking Khmer translators :-) cjl Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
There is a write up explaining how to do 18n in Sugar Activities: http://en.flossmanuals.net/como-hacer-una-actividad-sugar/internacionalizarse-con-pootle-god-100/ Above is the Spanish version. I understand there is an English version too. James Simmons On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Chris Leonard wrote: > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 3:04 PM, James Simmons wrote: > > Daniel, > > > > I'm going to try these out when I get home. It looks like you guys have > > done some really good work. You may know that Sugar Commander was one of > > mine. I'm looking forward to seeing what you did with it. The other > stuff > > looks impressive too. > > > > I agree with Walter that having young people work on Sugar Activities > and on > > Sugar itself is an important demonstration that what we're trying to do > with > > OLPC and Sugar actually works. > > > > James Simmons > > Daniel has been diligent about setting up i18n on his activities; but > it would be wonderful if some of our more experienced activity > developers could mentor some of these other young developers on > setting their activities up for translation on Pootle. > > This will sometimes involve a switch to en_US strings in the code-base > from Spanish originals, as English is generally the common language of > our localizers. Please don't make me try to recruit Spanish-speaking > Khmer translators :-) > > cjl > Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Wed, 9/19/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > From: S. Daniel Francis > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > To: "James Simmons" > Cc: "iaep" , "Sugar-dev Devel" > , community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org, > "Walter Bender" > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 12:42 PM > 2012/9/19 James Simmons : > > Walter, > > > > First, congrats on the grandchild. > > > > Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of > Sugar Activities were > > written by children who grew up with Sugar. That > is an incredible > > accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO > website had a Collection > > of those Activities. If something like that > existed I could see what kinds > > of Activities they were doing, how many were programs > written for other > > environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely > Sugar Activities, > > who the developers are, what Sugar features are they > using and not using, > > how popular the Activities are, etc. > > Hello James, > I feel identified with what Walter described so I dare to > answer. I'm > from Uruguay and I'm thirteen years old. I'm one of the > activity > developers in transition to Sugar contributor. I don't know > other > young Sugar contributors outside Uruguay, so I'll tell you > about the > situation here. > > About one year ago, children made activities often as a > hobbie, that > activities had not a reasonable aim and they weren't very > well > integrated with Sugar. > Hearing from the kids who are making Sugar activities and more contributions, I'm really wanting to know what teaching environment made this possible? Are there activity hacking classes? Is this kind of experimentation part of a turtleart class? A math class? have kids 'goggled' about programming on their own time and wanted to know about programming? Are there computer programming classes and teachers that have assignments that ask the kids to explore? Is this material online? Are there self-assembled sugar hacking groups? I've love to have any of these answers. Cheers, Kev ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Hi Kevin, 2012/9/19 Kevin Mark : > Hearing from the kids who are making Sugar activities and more contributions, > I'm really wanting to > know what teaching environment made this possible? Summing my case all the cases I listened about, we usually learn by our self. Thinking about why Sugar, well, we could make desktop applications, but a free and decent way to share a program is difficult to find and there's not always a community where we can share what we make. Also I think Sugar needs activities, unlike desktops, where practically all is already made. Just Edward suggested us to tell our stories, but at the moment I'll not get into many details and only answer your questions. > Are there activity hacking classes? In Uruguay there is only one activity hacking teacher: Flavio Danesse. He is an IT teacher, and every year he organizes a workshop where he teaches volunteer students to program in Python. The group "Python Joven", in English "Young Python".. Currently, his students contributing here are Agustin Zubiaga and Cristhofer Travieso, they told me about another student who develops applications for Android. > Is this kind of experimentation part of a turtleart class? For my part I can say "yes and no"... When I received my XO with Sugar I liked very much TurtleArt, but the teachers don't teach it very often, I had to look for documentation. >Have kids 'goggled' about programming on their own time and wanted to know >about programming? Now you are right, I learn practically all 'googling'. Flavio's students told me they also learn(ed) a big part of what they know searching and investigating by them self. I think it's better because we can learn what we are interested in, also if it's not related with Sugar. > Are there computer programming classes and teachers that have assignments > that ask the kids to explore? Programming is not often a subject at the school. I know about optional workshops, like Flavio's. My parents are teachers, and about three-four years ago, when I was ten years old, I used to go to the highschool where my parents worked and I listened to a workshop about web design (basic HTML development) and graphic design (with GIMP). That workshop was not a way to get young programmers, but it removed me the fear of seeing a source code as something strange or made for be understood by non-human people. Cheers. ~danielf P.S: Sorry, I don't speak English very well. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Wed, 9/19/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > From: S. Daniel Francis > Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > To: "Kevin Mark" > Cc: "James Simmons" , "iaep" , > "Sugar-dev Devel" , > community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 11:27 PM > Hi Kevin, > > 2012/9/19 Kevin Mark : > > Hearing from the kids who are making Sugar activities > and more contributions, I'm really wanting to > > know what teaching environment made this possible? > > Summing my case all the cases I listened about, we usually > learn by our self. > Thinking about why Sugar, well, we could make desktop > applications, > but a free and decent way to share a program is difficult to > find and > there's not always a community where we can share what we > make. While I can't speak for Sugar Labs, this sound like a very good problems to address. "Scratch" has a website to 'upload' its programs. I would really love to see a way to help young sugar activity hacker have a place for them to 'hack' on their games/activities. Maybe Activities.sugarlabs.org or some website in .uy? And maybe a forum? (I'm not someone to do this sadly but would think that the very capable people around the sugar community would find this idea motivating) > Also I > think Sugar needs activities, unlike desktops, where > practically all > is already made. > > Just Edward suggested us to tell our stories, but at the > moment I'll > not get into many details and only answer your questions. > > > Are there activity hacking classes? > In Uruguay there is only one activity hacking teacher: > Flavio Danesse. OH wow. I have recently started to 'hack' on JAMedia and JAMediaTube. So I know his work. I wonder if making videos of his lecture would be something he could do and the kids could watch? > He is an IT teacher, and every year he organizes a workshop > where he > teaches volunteer students to program in Python. The group > "Python > Joven", in English "Young Python".. If you and others can make 'clubs' in your area, that would be great, maybe they can setup a web 'forum' for everyone to exchange ideas. > > Currently, his students contributing here are Agustin > Zubiaga and > Cristhofer Travieso, they told me about another student who > develops > applications for Android. > > > Is this kind of experimentation part of a turtleart > class? > For my part I can say "yes and no"... When I received my XO > with Sugar > I liked very much TurtleArt, but the teachers don't teach it > very > often, I had to look for documentation. Oh, that is sad, I'm surprised to read that. > > >Have kids 'goggled' about programming on their own time > and wanted to know about programming? > Now you are right, I learn practically all 'googling'. > Flavio's > students told me they also learn(ed) a big part of what they > know > searching and investigating by them self. > I think it's better because we can learn what we are > interested in, > also if it's not related with Sugar. yes that is true. learning what you want (being an auto-didact) is powerful. > > > Are there computer programming classes and teachers > that have assignments that ask the kids to explore? > > Programming is not often a subject at the school. > I know about optional workshops, like Flavio's. My parents > are > teachers, and about three-four years ago, when I was ten > years old, I > used to go to the highschool where my parents worked and I > listened to > a workshop about web design (basic HTML development) and > graphic > design (with GIMP). That workshop was not a way to get > young > programmers, but it removed me the fear of seeing a source > code as > something strange or made for be understood by non-human > people. Yes, many people have a fear of this 'scary' stuff. It something everyone who wants to learn about programming has to face. Turtleart and Scratch was suppose to help. > > Cheers. > ~danielf > > P.S: Sorry, I don't speak English very well. Thanks you very much for your answers. I think you write English very well! -Kevin aka kevix ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Daniel and others, This thread has really inspired me. I am going to work with my students to develop Sugar activities. I have James' book. Are there other resources I need? Thanks. Gerald On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Kevin Mark wrote: > > > --- On Wed, 9/19/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > >> From: S. Daniel Francis >> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 >> To: "Kevin Mark" >> Cc: "James Simmons" , "iaep" , >> "Sugar-dev Devel" , >> community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org >> Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 11:27 PM >> Hi Kevin, >> >> 2012/9/19 Kevin Mark : >> > Hearing from the kids who are making Sugar activities >> and more contributions, I'm really wanting to >> > know what teaching environment made this possible? >> >> Summing my case all the cases I listened about, we usually >> learn by our self. >> Thinking about why Sugar, well, we could make desktop >> applications, >> but a free and decent way to share a program is difficult to >> find and >> there's not always a community where we can share what we >> make. > > While I can't speak for Sugar Labs, this sound like a very good problems to > address. "Scratch" has a website to 'upload' its programs. I would really > love to see a way to help young sugar activity hacker have a place for them > to 'hack' on their games/activities. Maybe Activities.sugarlabs.org or some > website in .uy? And maybe a forum? (I'm not someone to do this sadly but > would think that the very capable people around the sugar community would > find this idea motivating) > >> Also I >> think Sugar needs activities, unlike desktops, where >> practically all >> is already made. >> >> Just Edward suggested us to tell our stories, but at the >> moment I'll >> not get into many details and only answer your questions. >> >> > Are there activity hacking classes? >> In Uruguay there is only one activity hacking teacher: >> Flavio Danesse. > > OH wow. I have recently started to 'hack' on JAMedia and JAMediaTube. So I > know his work. I wonder if making videos of his lecture would be something he > could do and the kids could watch? > >> He is an IT teacher, and every year he organizes a workshop >> where he >> teaches volunteer students to program in Python. The group >> "Python >> Joven", in English "Young Python".. > > If you and others can make 'clubs' in your area, that would be great, maybe > they can setup a web 'forum' for everyone to exchange ideas. > > >> >> Currently, his students contributing here are Agustin >> Zubiaga and >> Cristhofer Travieso, they told me about another student who >> develops >> applications for Android. >> >> > Is this kind of experimentation part of a turtleart >> class? >> For my part I can say "yes and no"... When I received my XO >> with Sugar >> I liked very much TurtleArt, but the teachers don't teach it >> very >> often, I had to look for documentation. > > Oh, that is sad, I'm surprised to read that. > > >> >> >Have kids 'goggled' about programming on their own time >> and wanted to know about programming? >> Now you are right, I learn practically all 'googling'. >> Flavio's >> students told me they also learn(ed) a big part of what they >> know >> searching and investigating by them self. >> I think it's better because we can learn what we are >> interested in, >> also if it's not related with Sugar. > > yes that is true. learning what you want (being an auto-didact) is powerful. > >> >> > Are there computer programming classes and teachers >> that have assignments that ask the kids to explore? >> >> Programming is not often a subject at the school. >> I know about optional workshops, like Flavio's. My parents >> are >> teachers, and about three-four years ago, when I was ten >> years old, I >> used to go to the highschool where my parents worked and I >> listened to >> a workshop about web design (basic HTML development) and >> graphic >> design (with GIMP). That workshop was not a way to get >> young >> programmers, but it removed me the fear of seeing a source >> code as >> something strange or made for be understood by non-human >> people. > > Yes, many people have a fear of this 'scary' stuff. It something everyone who > wants to learn about programming has to face. Turtleart and Scratch was > suppose to help. > >> >> Cheers. >> ~danielf >> >> P.S: Sorry, I don't speak English very well. > > Thanks you very much for your answers. I think you write English very well! > -Kevin aka kevix > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Dr. Gerald Ardito wrote: > Daniel and others, > > This thread has really inspired me. I am going to work with my > students to develop Sugar activities. > I have James' book. Are there other resources I need? I'd recommend using the Duplicate function in View Source. Have them make some changes to a favorite existing Sugar activity. regards. -walter > > Thanks. > Gerald > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Kevin Mark wrote: >> >> >> --- On Wed, 9/19/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: >> >>> From: S. Daniel Francis >>> Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 >>> To: "Kevin Mark" >>> Cc: "James Simmons" , "iaep" >>> , "Sugar-dev Devel" >>> , community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org >>> Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 11:27 PM >>> Hi Kevin, >>> >>> 2012/9/19 Kevin Mark : >>> > Hearing from the kids who are making Sugar activities >>> and more contributions, I'm really wanting to >>> > know what teaching environment made this possible? >>> >>> Summing my case all the cases I listened about, we usually >>> learn by our self. >>> Thinking about why Sugar, well, we could make desktop >>> applications, >>> but a free and decent way to share a program is difficult to >>> find and >>> there's not always a community where we can share what we >>> make. >> >> While I can't speak for Sugar Labs, this sound like a very good problems to >> address. "Scratch" has a website to 'upload' its programs. I would really >> love to see a way to help young sugar activity hacker have a place for them >> to 'hack' on their games/activities. Maybe Activities.sugarlabs.org or some >> website in .uy? And maybe a forum? (I'm not someone to do this sadly but >> would think that the very capable people around the sugar community would >> find this idea motivating) >> >>> Also I >>> think Sugar needs activities, unlike desktops, where >>> practically all >>> is already made. >>> >>> Just Edward suggested us to tell our stories, but at the >>> moment I'll >>> not get into many details and only answer your questions. >>> >>> > Are there activity hacking classes? >>> In Uruguay there is only one activity hacking teacher: >>> Flavio Danesse. >> >> OH wow. I have recently started to 'hack' on JAMedia and JAMediaTube. So I >> know his work. I wonder if making videos of his lecture would be something >> he could do and the kids could watch? >> >>> He is an IT teacher, and every year he organizes a workshop >>> where he >>> teaches volunteer students to program in Python. The group >>> "Python >>> Joven", in English "Young Python".. >> >> If you and others can make 'clubs' in your area, that would be great, maybe >> they can setup a web 'forum' for everyone to exchange ideas. >> >> >>> >>> Currently, his students contributing here are Agustin >>> Zubiaga and >>> Cristhofer Travieso, they told me about another student who >>> develops >>> applications for Android. >>> >>> > Is this kind of experimentation part of a turtleart >>> class? >>> For my part I can say "yes and no"... When I received my XO >>> with Sugar >>> I liked very much TurtleArt, but the teachers don't teach it >>> very >>> often, I had to look for documentation. >> >> Oh, that is sad, I'm surprised to read that. >> >> >>> >>> >Have kids 'goggled' about programming on their own time >>> and wanted to know about programming? >>> Now you are right, I learn practically all 'googling'. >>> Flavio's >>> students told me they also learn(ed) a big part of what they >>> know >>> searching and investigating by them self. >>> I think it's better because we can learn what we are >>> interested in, >>> also if it's not related with Sugar. >> >> yes that is true. learning what you want (being an auto-didact) is powerful. >> >>> >>> > Are there computer programming classes and teachers >>> that have assignments that ask the kids to explore? >>> >>> Programming is not often a subject at the school. >>> I know about optional workshops, like Flavio's. My parents >>> are >>> teachers, and about three-four years ago, when I was ten >>> years old, I >>> used to go to the highschool where my parents worked and I >>> listened to >>> a workshop about web design (basic HTML development) and >>> graphic >>> design (with GIMP). That workshop was not a way to get >>> young >>> programmers, but it removed me the fear of seeing a source >>> code as >>> something strange or made for be understood by non-human >>> people. >> >> Yes, many people have a fear of this 'scary' stuff. It something everyone >> who wants to learn about programming has to face. Turtleart and Scratch was >> suppose to help. >> >>> >>> Cheers. >>> ~danielf >>> >>> P.S: Sorry, I don't speak English very well. >> >> Thanks you very much for your answers. I think you write English very well! >> -Kevin aka kevix >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > __
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Walter, Sounds good. Thanks. Gerald P.S. And congratulations on the pending new arrival. On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Walter Bender wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Dr. Gerald Ardito > wrote: >> Daniel and others, >> >> This thread has really inspired me. I am going to work with my >> students to develop Sugar activities. >> I have James' book. Are there other resources I need? > > I'd recommend using the Duplicate function in View Source. Have them > make some changes to a favorite existing Sugar activity. > > regards. > > -walter > >> >> Thanks. >> Gerald >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 4:16 AM, Kevin Mark wrote: >>> >>> >>> --- On Wed, 9/19/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: >>> From: S. Daniel Francis Subject: Re: [IAEP] [Sugar-devel] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 To: "Kevin Mark" Cc: "James Simmons" , "iaep" , "Sugar-dev Devel" , community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 11:27 PM Hi Kevin, 2012/9/19 Kevin Mark : > Hearing from the kids who are making Sugar activities and more contributions, I'm really wanting to > know what teaching environment made this possible? Summing my case all the cases I listened about, we usually learn by our self. Thinking about why Sugar, well, we could make desktop applications, but a free and decent way to share a program is difficult to find and there's not always a community where we can share what we make. >>> >>> While I can't speak for Sugar Labs, this sound like a very good problems to >>> address. "Scratch" has a website to 'upload' its programs. I would really >>> love to see a way to help young sugar activity hacker have a place for them >>> to 'hack' on their games/activities. Maybe Activities.sugarlabs.org or some >>> website in .uy? And maybe a forum? (I'm not someone to do this sadly but >>> would think that the very capable people around the sugar community would >>> find this idea motivating) >>> Also I think Sugar needs activities, unlike desktops, where practically all is already made. Just Edward suggested us to tell our stories, but at the moment I'll not get into many details and only answer your questions. > Are there activity hacking classes? In Uruguay there is only one activity hacking teacher: Flavio Danesse. >>> >>> OH wow. I have recently started to 'hack' on JAMedia and JAMediaTube. So I >>> know his work. I wonder if making videos of his lecture would be something >>> he could do and the kids could watch? >>> He is an IT teacher, and every year he organizes a workshop where he teaches volunteer students to program in Python. The group "Python Joven", in English "Young Python".. >>> >>> If you and others can make 'clubs' in your area, that would be great, maybe >>> they can setup a web 'forum' for everyone to exchange ideas. >>> >>> Currently, his students contributing here are Agustin Zubiaga and Cristhofer Travieso, they told me about another student who develops applications for Android. > Is this kind of experimentation part of a turtleart class? For my part I can say "yes and no"... When I received my XO with Sugar I liked very much TurtleArt, but the teachers don't teach it very often, I had to look for documentation. >>> >>> Oh, that is sad, I'm surprised to read that. >>> >>> >Have kids 'goggled' about programming on their own time and wanted to know about programming? Now you are right, I learn practically all 'googling'. Flavio's students told me they also learn(ed) a big part of what they know searching and investigating by them self. I think it's better because we can learn what we are interested in, also if it's not related with Sugar. >>> >>> yes that is true. learning what you want (being an auto-didact) is powerful. >>> > Are there computer programming classes and teachers that have assignments that ask the kids to explore? Programming is not often a subject at the school. I know about optional workshops, like Flavio's. My parents are teachers, and about three-four years ago, when I was ten years old, I used to go to the highschool where my parents worked and I listened to a workshop about web design (basic HTML development) and graphic design (with GIMP). That workshop was not a way to get young programmers, but it removed me the fear of seeing a source code as something strange or made for be understood by non-human people. >>> >>> Yes, many people have a fear of this 'scary' stuff. It something everyone >>> who wants to learn about programming has to face. Turtleart and Scratch was >>> suppose to help. >>> Cheers. ~danielf P.S: Sorry, I don't
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/20 Kevin Mark : > > While I can't speak for Sugar Labs, this sound like a very good problems to > address. "Scratch" has a > website to 'upload' its programs. I would really love to see a way to help > young sugar activity hacker > have a place for them to 'hack' on their games/activities. Maybe > Activities.sugarlabs.org or some > website in .uy? And maybe a forum? (I'm not someone to do this sadly but > would think that the very > capable people around the sugar community would find this idea motivating) > ASLO is a good place to upload a Sugar Activity, also in Uruguay we have a deserted website for the ceibalJAM community: http://ceibaljam.org/drupal/?q=lista_descargas CeibalJAM is an organization made for volunteers with the aim of generate educational resources looking at what is needed by the children at Uruguay. I used to write at the CeibalJAM mailing list. (Olpc-Uruguay on lists.laptop.org) > OH wow. I have recently started to 'hack' on JAMedia and JAMediaTube. So I > know his work. I wonder if > making videos of his lecture would be something he could do and the kids > could watch? > He wants to do his code hackable by interested children, so he writes his programs in Spanish. It's a good way to learn, but it's not a good practice. At least he should setup i18n at JAMedia. > If you and others can make 'clubs' in your area, that would be great, maybe > they can setup a web 'forum' for everyone to exchange ideas. > We started a public google group one time, but we are too few, and at Olpc-Uruguay we could share, ask, etc. > Oh, that is sad, I'm surprised to read that. The first year when I received my XO, I had a teacher who requested as homework make some geometric forms with TA. At the next courses, the teachers preferred Scratch and Etoys because it was what they learned in their teaching courses. With the robots getting the schools, there are teachers learning TA and they liked it very much. Now at the highschool (from twelve years old to eighteen in .UY), teachers aren't formed to work with XOs, so the usage at highschools is very poor. So I'd say the expected educational implementation of OLPC and Sugar, is happening slowly at primary schools. Cheers, Daniel. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Daniel, I did remember to try out your Activities last night. In addition to my XO I have several computers running different versions of Fedora, and that was what I used because it was a bit more convenient. I ended up using two different computers because the latest Fedora won't run Sugar File Manager. Sugar File Manager was different than I expected it to be. It actually mounts the Journal on the GNOME desktop, although GNOME can't browse it and wouldn't let me unmount it. The File Manager seems to be more of a browser than what I would think of as a file manager. It doesn't look like you can copy files into the Journal or modify or delete Journal entries. I'm intrigued by the mounting of the Journal but I wouldn't call it an *improvement* over Sugar Commander, which does let you do these things. I didn't try Agubrowser. The other stuff was without exception really impressive. I had to wonder if you adapted existing Python programs to be Sugar Activities or if you wrote the whole Activities. The Graph Plotter was especially impressive. It looks like JAMMath does need the i18n treatment, but it shouldn't be difficult. I'm wondering if you've made any use of Como Hacer Una Actividad Sugar and if so if you found it helpful. It looks like the latest Python will break all the code samples in that book so at some point it will need to be revised. Perhaps you and the others might be persuaded to contribute some chapters to the new edition. The existing book has no chapter on Sugarizing existing applications, and a chapter about "Python Joven" might be a nice addition too. Any contributors are eligible to get their pictures on the back cover of the printed version. James Simmons ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/20 James Simmons : > Daniel, > > I did remember to try out your Activities last night. In addition to my XO > I have several computers running different versions of Fedora, and that was > what I used because it was a bit more convenient. I ended up using two > different computers because the latest Fedora won't run Sugar File Manager. > > Sugar File Manager was different than I expected it to be. It actually > mounts the Journal on the GNOME desktop, although GNOME can't browse it and > wouldn't let me unmount it. The File Manager seems to be more of a browser > than what I would think of as a file manager. It doesn't look like you can > copy files into the Journal or modify or delete Journal entries. I'm > intrigued by the mounting of the Journal but I wouldn't call it an > *improvement* over Sugar Commander, which does let you do these things. > Of course it's not an improvement, I don't feel proud of that creation. > > I didn't try Agubrowser. > > The other stuff was without exception really impressive. I had to wonder if > you adapted existing Python programs to be Sugar Activities or if you wrote > the whole Activities. The Graph Plotter was especially impressive. First I sugarized Lybniz Graph Plotter, and after understand all the code and see some defects I decided to create my own plotter called Graph Plotter and maintain it as myself. > > It looks like JAMMath does need the i18n treatment, but it shouldn't be > difficult. > > I'm wondering if you've made any use of Como Hacer Una Actividad Sugar and > if so if you found it helpful. I have a printed version (in English) of your book. I'd say it's helpful and I still read it for check about collaboration in activities. I have pending to implement it on Graph Plotter. > It looks like the latest Python will break > all the code samples in that book so at some point it will need to be > revised. A new version of your book would be great. But we are not at the best moment, Sugar is in a transition to GTK3. I'm also developing a desktop framework which provides compatibility between Sugar and other desktops, and reduces repetitive code. I think that framework finished, would be a new better way to develop a Sugar Activity. Cheers, Daniel Francis. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Great reply Daniel, We are proud of have you and other young hackers working in the project! Gonzalo On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:42 PM, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > 2012/9/19 James Simmons : > > Walter, > > > > First, congrats on the grandchild. > > > > Second, I am intrigued by the statement that 10% of Sugar Activities were > > written by children who grew up with Sugar. That is an incredible > > accomplishment, and it makes me wish that the ASLO website had a > Collection > > of those Activities. If something like that existed I could see what > kinds > > of Activities they were doing, how many were programs written for other > > environments using a Sugar wrapper, how many are purely Sugar Activities, > > who the developers are, what Sugar features are they using and not using, > > how popular the Activities are, etc. > > Hello James, > I feel identified with what Walter described so I dare to answer. I'm > from Uruguay and I'm thirteen years old. I'm one of the activity > developers in transition to Sugar contributor. I don't know other > young Sugar contributors outside Uruguay, so I'll tell you about the > situation here. > > About one year ago, children made activities often as a hobbie, that > activities had not a reasonable aim and they weren't very well > integrated with Sugar. > > Some examples: > Agubrowser by Agustin Zubiaga: > This activity was based on webkit when Browse used python-hulahop (gecko). > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4419 > Sugar File Manager by Ignacio Rodríguez and me: > Based on Sugar Commander and JAMexplorer, with some improvements. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4494 > > Actually, we make activities thinking in its utility, but our aim is > still learn with what we do. > I leave here some of the activities that make us feel proud: > > TerronesWeeper: A "mines" game for CeibalJAM!, the Uruguayan OLPC > community, which is represented with a Terrón[1]. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org//en-US/sugar/addon/4520 > > Chart: Made with help of adults and now available at the official OLPC > build. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4534 > > Graph Plotter: Mathematical function plotter. > http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Activities/Graph_Plotter > > JAMath: Other game for CeibalJAM. I'm not sure, but I think this > activity is only available in Spanish. > http://activities.sugarlabs.org/en-US/sugar/addon/4595 > > Sorry if I forget other activities. > > Cheers, > Daniel. > > [1] http://ceibaljam.org/drupal/?q=node/741 > ___ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > i...@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Hi, everybody. Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified with the Walter message. I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when I was ten, when I receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and it liked me a lot. About the young programmers: I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot but for obvious reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned english. But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they find it difficult to program. About sugar and the teachers: Unfortunately, when I was in primary school, no teacher was concerned with explaining how to use my XO, and the "logical sugar activities", such as Turtle Art and Scratch, but luckily their interfaces are very intuitive. And when I started the high school was the same, no teacher was interested in the XO, except Mr. Flavio Danesse :) For this reason the most of my classmates, only use their XO to browse in Facebook and other social networks. Regards, Agustin Zubiaga ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez : > Hi, everybody. > Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified with the Walter message. Hi Agustin! > I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when I was ten, when I > receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and it liked me a lot. > > About the young programmers: > I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot but for obvious > reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the > most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned > english.. > > But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they > find it difficult to program. I'd say now there's a lot of documentation in Spanish, but I agree with you in the language can be a barrier sometimes, specially for write e-mails and similar things. When Flavio said he doesn't understand why Spanish speakers write source code in English, I replied I don't write code in English, I write in Python, in C (not for Sugar) or in any programming language. > About sugar and the teachers: > Unfortunately, when I was in primary school, no teacher was concerned with > explaining how to use my XO, and the "logical sugar activities", such as > Turtle Art and Scratch, but luckily their interfaces are very intuitive. > And when I started the high school was the same, no teacher was interested > in the XO, except Mr. Flavio Danesse :) > For this reason the most of my classmates, only use their XO to browse in > Facebook and other social networks. Here One Laptop Per Child is promoted as an implementation with the aim of provide the children the possibility of access to the information and internet. Of course, when it's also an education project we expect an educational usage, I can say there is at least one teacher per school interested in implement XO computers in its classroom. Cheers, Daniel. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 3:53 PM, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > 2012/9/23 Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez : >> About the young programmers: >> I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot but for obvious >> reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the >> most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned >> english.. >> >> But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they >> find it difficult to program. > > I'd say now there's a lot of documentation in Spanish, but I agree > with you in the language can be a barrier sometimes, specially for > write e-mails and similar things. > When Flavio said he doesn't understand why Spanish speakers write > source code in English, I replied I don't write code in English, I > write in Python, in C (not for Sugar) or in any programming language. It is true that the language one speaks when programming is the computer's language. However, while is not important which language one uses for the UI strings as long as the users understand it, I would like to encourage all Sugar developers to write for an international audience by using gettext and generating English POT files. The argument for porting a stable branch of your UI strings to English and generating a POT from there is the simple and practical argument that English is the common language of our localization community. By all means, one should develop and test with Spanish UI strings if that is easiest, but please consider taking that next step to an internationalized activity (with English POT) when you have something you are proud of having developed and would like to share it with non-Spanish speakers. We are fortunate to have many developers that are "trilingual" (Spanish, English, Python) that are willing to help with this important step to make activities from Spanish-speaking developers available to children in any of the languages represented by our L10n community. I would love to see more of the Spanish-only activities present in ASLO take this step to i18n so that they can be used by other XO kids around the world in their mother tongues. Warmest Regards, cjl Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 Chris Leonard : > I would love to see more of the Spanish-only activities > present in ASLO take this step to i18n so that they can be used by > other XO kids around the world in their mother tongues. A good way would be if the ASLO editors request the authors to internationalize their activities. I know sometimes they do it, and leave a link to an article at wiki.sl.org where explains how to implement i18n. For my part, I can start to contact Spanish developers. Best regards, Daniel. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Hello Agustin from the US :) --- On Sun, 9/23/12, Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez wrote: From: Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 To: "Gonzalo Odiard" Cc: "James Simmons" , "iaep" , "Sugar-dev Devel" , community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org, "S. Daniel Francis" Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 3:16 PM Hi, everybody. Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified with the Walter message. I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when I was ten, when I receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and it liked me a lot. About the young programmers: I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a lot We need to 'clone' this person, we need more who can do what he is doing! but for obvious reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more information, where the most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, because I have learned english. Yes, access to the internet, a laptop and free time are VERY important in the global world and provides access to the largest library, but sadly 90% of the text is in English. But now there is more in other languages, and even better, almost anyone of any age can write a web page to add Spanish (or other langauge) text. But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't this luck, and they find it difficult to program. About sugar and the teachers: Unfortunately, when I was in primary school, no teacher was concerned with explaining how to use my XO, and the "logical sugar activities", such as Turtle Art and Scratch, but luckily their interfaces are very intuitive. That was the goal of Sugar Labs, to make it easy to use, its great that you agree and they need more kids to help them make it better. And when I started the high school was the same, no teacher was interested in the XO, except Mr. Flavio Danesse :) That is sad, more teaacher need to see what he is doing in High Schools. For this reason the most of my classmates, only use their XO to browse in Facebook and other social networks. That is useful, but its not as educational as learning about python or reading about world news or science or animals or something more about your interests or your future. Unless you are using facebook to talk about science and news and books. Thanks you for your great effort to explain how the XO is helping and how you use it.-KevinRegards, Agustin Zubiaga -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Sun, 9/23/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > From: S. Daniel Francis > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > To: "Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez" > Cc: "iaep" , "Sugar-dev Devel" > , community-n...@lists.sugarlabs.org > Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 3:53 PM > 2012/9/23 Agustin Zubiaga Sanchez > : > > Hi, everybody. > > Like Daniel, I'm from Uruguay and I feel identified > with the Walter message. > Hi Agustin! > > > I'm fourteen years old, and I started using sugar when > I was ten, when I > > receive my XO was the first time that I used linux and > it liked me a lot. > > > > About the young programmers: > > I was a student of Flavio Danesse, and he taught me a > lot but for obvious > > reasons I had to appeal the internet to found more > information, where the > > most are in english, for me it wasn't a problem, > because I have learned > > english.. > > > > But the most of the children in Latin America hasn't > this luck, and they > > find it difficult to program. > > I'd say now there's a lot of documentation in Spanish, but I > agree > with you in the language can be a barrier sometimes, > specially for > write e-mails and similar things. > When Flavio said he doesn't understand why Spanish speakers > write > source code in English, I replied I don't write code in > English, I > write in Python, in C (not for Sugar) or in any programming > language. There is a subtle thing that I experienced when I was working at a multilingual website where it was common to speak, write and program in English, Spanish and Italian. The program language might have been C, python or vb script but it was written not like you'd expect. - In the US, this is the norm: #!/usr/bin/python # this is how you compute the total total = sum1+sum2+sum3 print "This is the total" total - but where I worked, it was like this: #!/usr/bin/python # questo è il modo in cui il punteggio di corrispondenza viene calcolato partida = calcio101+calcio02 - They are both 'python' but most programmers are not going to be able to debug the 2nd example easily. -- Making all the comments and the variable names in Spanish is not what I expect for sugarlabs but maybe for the 'python joven' or similar. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
> but where I worked, it was like this: > #!/usr/bin/python > # questo è il modo in cui il punteggio di corrispondenza viene calcolato > partida = calcio101+calcio02 Ciao Mondo! :) # Just regarding the Sugar Paint activity mixes English and Portuguese of its original maintainers. Now # with all the changes and patches it conserves only some words, specially file names like "desenho" # instead design. > They are both 'python' but most programmers are not going to be able to debug > the 2nd example easily. > Making all the comments and the variable names in Spanish is not what I > expect for sugarlabs but maybe for the 'python joven' or similar. Small examples can be made in other langs, but not a big application. That doesn't teach for the real life. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 02:19:38PM -0700, Kevin Mark wrote: > We need to 'clone' this person, we need more who can do what he is > doing! Find out from this person what hindered them, and remove that hindrance from others? ;-) -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
> > > # Just regarding the Sugar Paint activity mixes English and Portuguese > of its original maintainers. Now > # with all the changes and patches it conserves only some words, > specially file names like "desenho" > # instead design. > > Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables had Portuguese names. Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. Gonzalo ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 07:53:35PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables > had Portuguese names. > Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files without built-in internationalisation. As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers who use that language. The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor application support. In the meanwhile, the source code moves slowly to the common language of the most frequent change directors. As it happens to be my language, I find it hard to object. ;-) -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Kevin Mark wrote: > They are both 'python' but most programmers are not going to be able to debug > the 2nd example easily. > -- > Making all the comments and the variable names in Spanish is not what I > expect for sugarlabs but maybe for the 'python joven' or similar. In my experience, programmers are typically able adept at thinking of variables in the abstract, thus the preponderance of "foo" and 'bar" when conversationally describing programming with variables. Comments in code are a little more challenging, but as long as a Google Translate window is handy, I would think that most basic algorithmic structures (loops, etc.) would be readily deciphered. Quozl's notion of a deeper abstraction layer so that variable names could be internationalized is interesting, but I'm pretty busy going only as deep as the UI strings as it is, so I'll pass on that for now. :-) cjl ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 James Cameron : > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files > without built-in internationalisation. > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers > who use that language. > > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and then there are needed translators, our translators cant translate source code... > I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor > application support. > > In the meanwhile, the source code moves slowly to the common language > of the most frequent change directors. As it happens to be my > language, I find it hard to object. ;-) Maybe because I don't speak Chinese or any other Asian language, I don't see difficult the task of understand/write source code in Python. I don't think it isn't inclusive or open, in this time we are able to translate from any language to our natural language using any translation program. I know about lots of English speakers writing in Spanish mailing lists thanks to Google Translate. And also the case of only-Spanish speakers writing in these mailing lists. If people can pass the barrier of the language at mails, source code is very easier. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 09:14:41PM -0300, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > 2012/9/23 James Cameron : > > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files > > without built-in internationalisation. > > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers > > who use that language. > > > > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a > > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. > > It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and then there are > needed translators, our translators cant translate source code... True, only bilingual programmers could translate source code ... and that was what I was suggesting. I doubt our string translators, or their infrastructure, could be any help whatsoever. It is a totally different problem. But I don't think it is impossible for bilingual programmers to collaborate in this way. Merely difficult. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
2012/9/23 James Cameron : > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 09:14:41PM -0300, S. Daniel Francis wrote: >> 2012/9/23 James Cameron : >> > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files >> > without built-in internationalisation. >> > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers >> > who use that language. >> > >> > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a >> > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. >> >> It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and then there are >> needed translators, our translators cant translate source code... > > True, only bilingual programmers could translate source code ... and > that was what I was suggesting. I doubt our string translators, or > their infrastructure, could be any help whatsoever. It is a totally > different problem. > > But I don't think it is impossible for bilingual programmers to > collaborate in this way. Merely difficult. There are many reasons for don't translate source code. Here two: - Other languages have non-ascii characters, and variable names can't be written with those characters. - Python is very similar to the natural language, but in other languages, where the order to use the words is different, the code leases concordance. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Now I know, I should stop reading this thread :) Gonzalo On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 8:40 PM, James Cameron wrote: > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 07:53:35PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > > Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables > > had Portuguese names. > > Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. > > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files > without built-in internationalisation. > > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers > who use that language. > > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. > > I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor > application support. > > In the meanwhile, the source code moves slowly to the common language > of the most frequent change directors. As it happens to be my > language, I find it hard to object. ;-) > > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Sun, 9/23/12, S. Daniel Francis wrote: > From: S. Daniel Francis > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > To: "James Cameron" > Cc: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > Date: Sunday, September 23, 2012, 9:24 PM > 2012/9/23 James Cameron : > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 09:14:41PM -0300, S. Daniel > Francis wrote: > >> 2012/9/23 James Cameron : > >> > It is irritating that we still store source > code in linear text files > >> > without built-in internationalisation. > >> > As you change these names, they become far > less useful to programmers > >> > who use that language. > >> > > >> > The development system would be more open and > inclusive if there was a > >> > way to keep variable names, and other text, in > multiple languages. > >> > >> It isn't possible, there is to implement l10n and > then there are > >> needed translators, our translators cant translate > source code... > > > > True, only bilingual programmers could translate source > code ... and > > that was what I was suggesting. I doubt our > string translators, or > > their infrastructure, could be any help > whatsoever. It is a totally > > different problem. > > > > But I don't think it is impossible for bilingual > programmers to > > collaborate in this way. Merely difficult. > > There are many reasons for don't translate source code. > Here two: > - Other languages have non-ascii characters, and variable > names can't > be written with those characters. Some language (might be Perl or Python) are moving to make variables Unicode (UTF-8), so it will be allowed in the future. > - Python is very similar to the natural language, but in > other > languages, where the order to use the words is different, > the code > leases concordance. Yes, I can see a direct translation would be a problem, but in most case, the people I knew just made a shortened version or shorthand of the full name. I didn't mean to disrupt the conversation, as I know most 'real' programmers will eventually use English. But the idea of kids learning python with Spanish variable names and comments as part of a hacking community to learn, I think is something to consider. When they go to High School or College, they will have learned more English, I assume, and they can change to English (if they program in a Company that uses that) -Kev ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
El tema del idioma, tiene muchas aristas, (desde mi punto de vista), pero en lo que refiere específicamente a enseñar a programar a los niños y adolescentes, la cuestión está en que aprender un lenguaje de programación es en si, aprender otro idioma, lo cual ya de por si es difícil para cualquiera. Cuando trabajas con niños y jóvenes que a veces, ni siquiera conocen bien su propio lenguaje materno, y mucho menos el inglés, debes facilitarle el aprendizaje del lenguaje que intentas enseñar, que en este caso es python, no inglés. Al esfuerzo de aprender python, no puedes agregarle el de aprender inglés que en este caso sería un aprendizaje previo, lo cual termina por aburrir y frustrar a aquellos que lo que desean en realidad es programar. Obviamente, hasta cierto punto, quien intenta programar termina aprendiendo algo de inglés, casi sin darse cuenta, lo cual es bueno, pero no es el objetivo de enseñar a programar en python. Tampoco es cierto que para programar se necesite saber inglés, yo soy la prueba de ello. Yo no puedo siquiera escribir una frase en inglés, mucho menos hablarlo, y si escucho a alguien hablando inglés, dificilmente le entienda la mitad de lo que dice, sin embargo, entiendo casi todo lo que leo en inglés y luego, lo que no entiendo lo traduzco con google. Obviamente, para programar en python, cuando tengo que hacer cosas complejas, se me complica bastante por el idioma, pero para las cosas que yo deseo hacer con python, mis conocimientos de inglés son suficientes. De modo que yo, a mis alumnos, trato de enseñarles python, solucionándoles lo mejor que puedo el tema del inglés, luego, ellos, verán que es necesario aprender inglés para superarse, pero tienen toda la vida por delante para solucionarlo. Mientras tanto, todas mis aplicaciones van con variables y comentarios en español, porque sé que ellos las leen y las hackean a medida que aprenden o tratan de aprender cosas nuevas sobre python. Además, de todo eso, siendo que soy de habla hispana, ¿por qué habría de escribir en otro idioma?. ¿Para que me entiendan otros que no hablan español?, y ¿por qué, si yo para entenderles a ellos tengo que traducir con google?. Por un tema de desarrollo colaborativo tampoco puede ser, porque en 4 años nadie a aportado una sola línea de código a mis aplicaciones, mientras que yo he portado, mejorado, expandido y hasta reescrito muchas aplicaciones de terceros, y, las veces que alguien me dio una mano con algo fue en forma de ideas o conceptos y, o bien fue en español (generalmente han sido comañeros de CeibalJAM), o bien tuve que traducirlo con google. Qué no se entienda esto último como un reproche ni nada parecido, simplemente trato de ilustrar mis motivos para utilizar lo menos posible el inglés en mis aplicaciones. Simplemente no encuentro motivos por los cuales no utilizar español, mientras que encuentro fuertes motivos para no utilizar inglés. Pero sin lugar a dudas, el tema del idioma es fundamental en la comunidad de sugar. Quienes no podemos sostener una charla en inglés, directamente no participamos de las discusiones. Es también un motivo por el cual los docentes, en general, no se acercan a la comunidad. Todos sabemos el poco conocimiento y manejo informático que tienen los docentes (de américa latina al menos), en general, no podemos pensar que hablen inglés y por ende, al momento de escribir una wiki por ejemplo, debemos hacerlo en español, no en inglés. Lo que pasa es que la comunidad de sugarlabs se ha ido conviertiendo en una comunidad casi exclusivamente de desarrolladores y desde mi punto de vista, cada vez, se convierte más en eso, no hay mucho espacio para los docentes, ni mecanismos de participación real y efectiva para ellos, a menos que hablen inglés. <= esto si es un reproche :) Bueno, pero en definitiva, supongo que debe ser tan complicado traducir del español al inglés como del inglés al español. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Flavio, Estoy de acuerdo que para enseñar programación, agregar la problemática de comprender otro idioma a la de comprender el lenguaje de programación en si, no tiene demasiado sentido. Lo que si creo que tiene sentido, y esto tu y yo lo hemos hablado varias veces, pero como has dado tu punto de vista, voy a dar el mio, es que usemos un lenguaje comun para tratar de compartir esfuerzos y no multiplicar el trabajo. Imaginate lo que pasaría si la gente de Nepal, de Rwanda, latino america, y ahora las islas Fiji, cada uno tuviera que hacer su reproductor de videos y audio, su actividad para sacar fotos, etc. El costo en esfuerzo y tiempo que se invierte es altísimo. En la práctica es mas alto del que podemos afrontar como comunidad, porque aun no hemos logrado todo lo que nos proponemos. Entonces, esta barbaro usar los lenguajes locales para enseñar y aprender, algunos miembros de esas comunidades y algunos proyectos creceran hasta poder compartirse y alli es mejor contar con un idioma comun. Hoy es el ingles, en cien años, veremos. - I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming language, does not have too much sense. But have sense (and we talked about this a few times, but you have your point, and I have my point too) use a common language to share efforts and avoid multiply the job. Imagine if people from Nepal, Rwanda, Latin America, and now Fiji, need create his own video player, record activity, etc. The cost in time and effort is too high. In fact, is higher than the effort we can do as a community, because we haven't reach all what we want. Then, is ok use local language to teach and learn, some of the community members and some projects will grow up until be shared and then is better use a common language. Today is english, in 100 years, will see. Gonzalo 2012/9/23 Flavio Danesse > El tema del idioma, tiene muchas aristas, (desde mi punto de vista), pero > en lo que refiere específicamente a enseñar a programar a los niños y > adolescentes, la cuestión está en que aprender un lenguaje de programación > es en si, aprender otro idioma, lo cual ya de por si es difícil para > cualquiera. > > Cuando trabajas con niños y jóvenes que a veces, ni siquiera conocen bien > su propio lenguaje materno, y mucho menos el inglés, debes facilitarle el > aprendizaje del lenguaje que intentas enseñar, que en este caso es python, > no inglés. > > Al esfuerzo de aprender python, no puedes agregarle el de aprender inglés > que en este caso sería un aprendizaje previo, lo cual termina por aburrir y > frustrar a aquellos que lo que desean en realidad es programar. > > Obviamente, hasta cierto punto, quien intenta programar termina > aprendiendo algo de inglés, casi sin darse cuenta, lo cual es bueno, pero > no es el objetivo de enseñar a programar en python. > > Tampoco es cierto que para programar se necesite saber inglés, yo soy la > prueba de ello. > Yo no puedo siquiera escribir una frase en inglés, mucho menos hablarlo, y > si escucho a alguien hablando inglés, dificilmente le entienda la mitad de > lo que dice, sin embargo, entiendo casi todo lo que leo en inglés y luego, > lo que no entiendo lo traduzco con google. > > Obviamente, para programar en python, cuando tengo que hacer cosas > complejas, se me complica bastante por el idioma, pero para las cosas que > yo deseo hacer con python, mis conocimientos de inglés son suficientes. > > De modo que yo, a mis alumnos, trato de enseñarles python, solucionándoles > lo mejor que puedo el tema del inglés, luego, ellos, verán que es necesario > aprender inglés para superarse, pero tienen toda la vida por delante para > solucionarlo. > > Mientras tanto, todas mis aplicaciones van con variables y comentarios en > español, porque sé que ellos las leen y las hackean a medida que aprenden o > tratan de aprender cosas nuevas sobre python. > > Además, de todo eso, siendo que soy de habla hispana, ¿por qué habría de > escribir en otro idioma?. > ¿Para que me entiendan otros que no hablan español?, y ¿por qué, si yo > para entenderles a ellos tengo que traducir con google?. > > Por un tema de desarrollo colaborativo tampoco puede ser, porque en 4 años > nadie a aportado una sola línea de código a mis aplicaciones, mientras que > yo he portado, mejorado, expandido y hasta reescrito muchas aplicaciones de > terceros, y, las veces que alguien me dio una mano con algo fue en forma de > ideas o conceptos y, o bien fue en español (generalmente han sido comañeros > de CeibalJAM), o bien tuve que traducirlo con google. > > Qué no se entienda esto último como un reproche ni nada parecido, > simplemente trato de ilustrar mis motivos para utilizar lo menos posible el > inglés en mis aplicaciones. Simplemente no encuentro motivos por los cuales > no utilizar español, mientras que encuentro fuertes motivos para no > utilizar inglés. > > Pero sin lugar a dudas, el tema del idioma es fundamental en
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Hola Flavio, I think you gave many excellent reasons for using Spanish, which is what i was saying. So I agree. I was recalling something about the OLPC project in Haiti. They have 2 'officlal' languages: Kreyol and French. 99% of the country learns Kreyol but the upper class/government know French. So the kids learn French for some reason in their early years along with Kreyol and I was confused by this. Why learn something that they will use very little and confuse learning while trying to learn it in a little used language, French. That may not be 100% correct, so any correction welcome. So I understand the idea of having kids try to learn Python and English at the same time as being difficult and not always useful.-K___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
--- On Mon, 9/24/12, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: From: Gonzalo Odiard Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 To: "Flavio Danesse" Cc: "Kevin Mark" , sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org, "James Cameron" , "S. Daniel Francis" Date: Monday, September 24, 2012, 1:08 AM Flavio,Estoy de acuerdo que para enseñar programación, agregar la problemática de comprender otro idioma a la de comprender el lenguaje de programación en si, no tiene demasiado sentido.Lo que si creo que tiene sentido, y esto tu y yo lo hemos hablado varias veces, pero como has dado tu punto de vista, voy a dar el mio, es que usemos un lenguaje comun para tratar de compartir esfuerzos y no multiplicar el trabajo. Imaginate lo que pasaría si la gente de Nepal, de Rwanda, latino america, y ahora las islas Fiji, cada uno tuviera que hacer su reproductor de videos y audio, su actividad para sacar fotos, etc. El costo en esfuerzo y tiempo que se invierte es altísimo. En la práctica es mas alto del que podemos afrontar como comunidad, porque aun no hemos logrado todo lo que nos proponemos.Entonces, esta barbaro usar los lenguajes locales para enseñar y aprender, algunos miembros de esas comunidades y algunos proyectos creceran hasta poder compartirse y alli es mejor contar con un idioma comun. Hoy es el ingles, en cien años, veremos. - I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming language, does not have too much sense. But have sense (and we talked about this a few times, but you have your point, and I have my point too) use a common language to share efforts and avoid multiply the job. Imagine if people from Nepal, Rwanda, Latin America, and now Fiji, need create his own video player, record activity, etc. The cost in time and effort is too high. In fact, is higher than the effort we can do as a community, because we haven't reach all what we want.Then, is ok use local language to teach and learn, some of the community members and some projects will grow up until be shared and then is better use a common language. Today is english, in 100 years, will see. Gonzalo I think a certain comparison comes to mind from learning about Debian-edu/OLPC. There are tools you use to learn learing and learn skills and tools you use to do work. To learn programming, you should use what is easiest and useful to do it (like python and Spanish comments), but when you are going to collaborate with many non-English people, then you turn to the common language, English.___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 02:08:03AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to > learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming > language, does not have too much sense. I couldn't read what Flavio said, but I agree that having to learn a foreign language before learning programming does increase the cost of learning considerably, to the point that the learning may not occur. This is one of the reasons why some learning areas are difficult. But knowledge of the implementation language can assist greatly. Know Latin, can learn medicine terminology more quickly. Know Italian, can learn opera or music terminology more quickly. -- James Cameron http://quozl.linux.org.au/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:40:13 +1000 > From: qu...@laptop.org > To: sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > Subject: Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18 > > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 02:08:03AM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: > > I agree with you when you say, to teach programming, add the need to > > learn a foreign language to the fact of learning the programming > > language, does not have too much sense. > > I couldn't read what Flavio said, but I agree that having to learn a > foreign language before learning programming does increase the cost of > learning considerably, to the point that the learning may not occur. > > This is one of the reasons why some learning areas are difficult. But > knowledge of the implementation language can assist greatly. > > Know Latin, can learn medicine terminology more quickly. > > Know Italian, can learn opera or music terminology more quickly. Know English, can learn programming more quickly. > > -- > James Cameron > http://quozl.linux.org.au/ > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
Know English, can learn programming more quickly. If there could be a study of young programming language learners who used,.say, spanish and those who learned at a similar age but used English, I'd love to see that done and see if using Spanish first made for similar/greater/lesser ability when they were involved in the future with English-only open source projects. Just a wish, but maybe in the future :) ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.com said: > In my experience, programmers are typically able adept at thinking of > variables in the abstract, thus the preponderance of "foo" and 'bar" when > conversationally describing programming with variables. I think that's misleading. I consider sensible names (variables and procedures) to be a key step in making code easy to understand. That's why we use names like "height" rather than "j13". "foo" and 'bar" are generally used for local variables. They are like pronouns. You have to know the context in order to figure out what they mean. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On 2012-09-24, at 01:40, James Cameron wrote: > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 07:53:35PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: >> Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables >> had Portuguese names. >> Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. > > It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files > without built-in internationalisation. > > As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers > who use that language. > > The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a > way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. > > I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor > application support. Tile-based programming systems like Etoys, Scratch, or Turtle Art make this a lot easier. They at least support switching the names of built-in functions and objects. Translating user-defined names is harder, but not impossible. I don't know of any deployment-ready system, but there have been at least demos, e.g. the 2004 TranSqueak project (details below, though I couldn't find a PDF online). - Bert - TranSqueak - making the world a smaller place: on-the-fly translation of Etoy projects and instant messaging AUTHORS: Michael Rüger, Yoshiki Ohshima (Viewpoints Research Institute, Glendale, CA, USA) PUBLISHED: Proceedings of Second International Conference on Creating, Connecting and Collaborating through Computing (C5), 2004. ABSTRACT: This work presents an extension to the existing multilingualization work (ml7n) which allows people to collaborate on Squeak Etoy projects across different natural languages. Squeak etoys support several languages, both ISO-Latin based ones (erg., English, German, French), and nonISO languages (e.g., Japanese). Switching between languages for the Etoy tiles is fairly easy to support as the tiles provide a predefined set of words and phrases, which only need to be translated once. There are two areas where we need to go beyond the predefined and pretranslated set of phrases: user supplied names and communication between collaborators. This work presents an approach based on online translation services. We demonstrate a working prototype and a first analysis of the feasibility of this approach. ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: > On 2012-09-24, at 01:40, James Cameron wrote: > >> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 07:53:35PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: >>> Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables >>> had Portuguese names. >>> Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. >> >> It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files >> without built-in internationalisation. >> >> As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers >> who use that language. >> >> The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a >> way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. >> >> I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor >> application support. > > > Tile-based programming systems like Etoys, Scratch, or Turtle Art make this a > lot easier. They at least support switching the names of built-in functions > and objects. > > Translating user-defined names is harder, but not impossible. I don't know of > any deployment-ready system, but there have been at least demos, e.g. the > 2004 TranSqueak project (details below, though I couldn't find a PDF online). > > - Bert - > > TranSqueak - making the world a smaller place: on-the-fly translation of Etoy > projects and instant messaging > > AUTHORS: Michael Rüger, Yoshiki Ohshima (Viewpoints Research Institute, > Glendale, CA, USA) > > PUBLISHED: Proceedings of Second International Conference on Creating, > Connecting and Collaborating through Computing (C5), 2004. > > ABSTRACT: This work presents an extension to the existing multilingualization > work (ml7n) which allows people to collaborate on Squeak Etoy projects across > different natural languages. Squeak etoys support several languages, both > ISO-Latin based ones (erg., English, German, French), and nonISO languages > (e.g., Japanese). Switching between languages for the Etoy tiles is fairly > easy to support as the tiles provide a predefined set of words and phrases, > which only need to be translated once. There are two areas where we need to > go beyond the predefined and pretranslated set of phrases: user supplied > names and communication between collaborators. This work presents an approach > based on online translation services. We demonstrate a working prototype and > a first analysis of the feasibility of this approach. > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel There seem to be three threads here: (1) should we teach children to program in their native language? (2) should we insist on English as the development language for Sugar development? (3) how can we encourage more programming as part of the elementary learning in schools? I've not seen studies regarding the merits of (1), but it seems that common sense would dictate that we not burden students with having to convolve natural language learning with programming. (One could make arguments to the contrary, but ultimately, it is a local decision.) Regarding Sugar, whereas it is a global project trying to service the needs of children of many languages and developers who do not all share a common language (other than Python), it is less clear that code base consisting of a mixture of variable names and comments in a variety of languages is a productive path. We chose English as the lingua franca of the project and it is certainly a reasonable choice. We have made an effort to support the multilingual developer community by providing automated chat translation (as per the recommendations of Yoshiki and Michael) and I have observed these services being used by developers as they hone their English skills. As far as getting more teachers to pick up on the powerful ideas associated with programming, it will take time, but already we see some progress, as evidenced by what has been happening in .UY. Paolo remains pessimistic and I remain optimistic. Perhaps our differences are differences of expectation about timescale. I remain hopeful that the children of the generation of Daniel and Agustine will bring different skills and expectations of school and school will change from the bottom up. Yes, that is a long view, but unless we start now, we will wait even longer. The cool thing is, .UY has already started!! Now, if I could only get my own country to move forward. regards. -walter -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
When I wrote the chapter on collaboration in Make Your Own Sugar Activities! I used a fairly complex example called Battalla Naval that was written using Spanish. I had to run a comment or two through Babel Fish but I was able to figure out what it did and why. I only speak English. I regret that some dedicated teachers wasted much time trying to teach me French. At least one reason we want to teach children to program is to give them some problem solving skills. They can do that in their native language. When they get older and want to do larger projects with students from other countries then English may be something they need to consider. James Simmons ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [IAEP] Sugar Digest 2012-09-18
On 2012-09-24, at 12:37, Bert Freudenberg wrote: > On 2012-09-24, at 01:40, James Cameron wrote: > >> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 07:53:35PM -0300, Gonzalo Odiard wrote: >>> Paint activity was developed by a Brazilian team and a lot of variables >>> had Portuguese names. >>> Whit the time, we changed a lot, but there are a few pending. >> >> It is irritating that we still store source code in linear text files >> without built-in internationalisation. >> >> As you change these names, they become far less useful to programmers >> who use that language. >> >> The development system would be more open and inclusive if there was a >> way to keep variable names, and other text, in multiple languages. >> >> I've seen nothing yet that achieves this. It would require editor >> application support. > > > Tile-based programming systems like Etoys, Scratch, or Turtle Art make this a > lot easier. They at least support switching the names of built-in functions > and objects. > > Translating user-defined names is harder, but not impossible. I don't know of > any deployment-ready system, but there have been at least demos, e.g. the > 2004 TranSqueak project (details below, though I couldn't find a PDF online). > > - Bert - PDF of this paper on the VPRI website: http://www.vpri.org/pdf/tr2004001_transqueak.pdf More papers: http://vpri.org/html/writings.php - Bert - ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
