[freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
On Friday 27 February 2009 21:17:21 bqz69 wrote: > Dennis Nezic wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:47:09 +0100, bqz69 wrote: > >> It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people. > > > > More details would help :P. In Gentoo Linux, I do "emerge freenet", and > > My main complain is, that is not possible to use Freenet anonymously for > individual persons (without "friends"), which really is the main idea of > Freenet. This is simply a matter of having enough users. It is not possible to use Facebook, or LinkedIn, or Orkut, without "friends". But they work. Whereas with Freenet, it is very much possible to use it without "friends", but its security (and especially survivability) is vastly enhanced if you can connect only to people you (marginally) know and (marginally) trust. Even Opennet-based (network seclevel = low/normal) Freenet is considerably more secure than the unencrypted web! Future versions of Freenet (particularly 0.9) will have higher security, probably including on opennet. However darknet (connecting to Friends only) will *always* be vastly more secure against most attacks, because it is simply much easier to get a connection to an opennet node (it's a normal part of the process of announcement and path folding), than to a darknet node (the user must manually agree to connect to you). It will also always be much harder to block, for similar reasons. Freenet's security in general is probably weaker than many people assume. But the same is true of Tor. They have different threat models and different attacks are useful against the two systems (see the FAQ for more detailed info on this). It will improve, but at the moment we are more concerned about ease of use, performance and getting 0.8.0 out. > > You are rigth, the very Freenet is very easy to install. > > But in order to use Freenet at fullest capabilities, you need tools like > jSite - to publish your freesites > FMS - to announce your freesites etc > Freemail - freenet e-mail system > > These functions could be an integrated part of Freenet, as they are > imperative to have - and they are not very easy to setup - I have made a > Freenet minihowto (www.minihowto.org), and I can assure you it was not > very easy for me to pin it all together about how to use a Freenet system. > > The Freenet program might be something like one combined GUI (Graphic > User Interface) where everything could be done, in order to use Freenet > at its maximum capabilities - that's my dream. In 0.8, Freetalk will be integrated into the web interface; this is being actively worked on and rapidly approaching usability (posting and reading messages/threads works now, but changing trust settings has not yet been implemented). A lot more people use webmail than use traditional standalone mail clients, so there is no reason a web interface can't be user friendly. Last year we tried to get a Summer of Code student to build a web interface for freemail, but that didn't pan out; it would certainly be helpful. I agree that we should include a freesite publishing wizard, this has been discussed but nothing has yet come of it. > > I like -and admire the people who have made Freenet, but it just seems > to me, as if the project is not developing very much at the moment - and > I had a small hope, that my thread might awaken some ideas - that's all! IMHO the db4o branch is worthwhile. It may not be worth the enormous effort it has taken, but it should greatly improve usability for many users by allowing bigger download/upload queues without crashing, resuming requests immediately on startup, and reducing resource usage. Other changes made during the development of 0.8 have helped to improve performance, which IMHO is critical if we want wider use of Freenet. On Friday 27 February 2009 23:18:37 Dennis Nezic wrote: > What you are dreaming of is an entire newbie-freenet-platform, complete > with newbie publishing tools (that power users would hate), and newbie > newsgroup tools, and a newbie email client, etc etc. The reason why > Toad et al will never do that is because it is simply too ambitious :) > --there is /plenty/ of work that needs to be done on the invisible > internals already. Moreover, why lock users into a single publishing > tool (like jSite), or a single newsreader/email client, etc? > > Nevertheless, I do realize that that is precisely what is necessary if > one wants to attract newbies. First of all, as long as it's all > modular, and I can strip away all the guis and have a lean and > barebones installation, I'm happy. But, second of all, you already can > do what you're looking for :). It's essentially a packaging issue. Just > make your own special B69FreenetPlatform installer that installs each > of those components all pre-configured and integrated with one > another :). I disagree. Freenet can and should include plugins implementing usable web-based chat, mail, and a freesite upload
Re: [freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
On Friday 27 February 2009 21:17:21 bqz69 wrote: Dennis Nezic wrote: On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:47:09 +0100, bqz69 wrote: It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people. More details would help :P. In Gentoo Linux, I do emerge freenet, and My main complain is, that is not possible to use Freenet anonymously for individual persons (without friends), which really is the main idea of Freenet. This is simply a matter of having enough users. It is not possible to use Facebook, or LinkedIn, or Orkut, without friends. But they work. Whereas with Freenet, it is very much possible to use it without friends, but its security (and especially survivability) is vastly enhanced if you can connect only to people you (marginally) know and (marginally) trust. Even Opennet-based (network seclevel = low/normal) Freenet is considerably more secure than the unencrypted web! Future versions of Freenet (particularly 0.9) will have higher security, probably including on opennet. However darknet (connecting to Friends only) will *always* be vastly more secure against most attacks, because it is simply much easier to get a connection to an opennet node (it's a normal part of the process of announcement and path folding), than to a darknet node (the user must manually agree to connect to you). It will also always be much harder to block, for similar reasons. Freenet's security in general is probably weaker than many people assume. But the same is true of Tor. They have different threat models and different attacks are useful against the two systems (see the FAQ for more detailed info on this). It will improve, but at the moment we are more concerned about ease of use, performance and getting 0.8.0 out. You are rigth, the very Freenet is very easy to install. But in order to use Freenet at fullest capabilities, you need tools like jSite - to publish your freesites FMS - to announce your freesites etc Freemail - freenet e-mail system These functions could be an integrated part of Freenet, as they are imperative to have - and they are not very easy to setup - I have made a Freenet minihowto (www.minihowto.org), and I can assure you it was not very easy for me to pin it all together about how to use a Freenet system. The Freenet program might be something like one combined GUI (Graphic User Interface) where everything could be done, in order to use Freenet at its maximum capabilities - that's my dream. In 0.8, Freetalk will be integrated into the web interface; this is being actively worked on and rapidly approaching usability (posting and reading messages/threads works now, but changing trust settings has not yet been implemented). A lot more people use webmail than use traditional standalone mail clients, so there is no reason a web interface can't be user friendly. Last year we tried to get a Summer of Code student to build a web interface for freemail, but that didn't pan out; it would certainly be helpful. I agree that we should include a freesite publishing wizard, this has been discussed but nothing has yet come of it. I like -and admire the people who have made Freenet, but it just seems to me, as if the project is not developing very much at the moment - and I had a small hope, that my thread might awaken some ideas - that's all! IMHO the db4o branch is worthwhile. It may not be worth the enormous effort it has taken, but it should greatly improve usability for many users by allowing bigger download/upload queues without crashing, resuming requests immediately on startup, and reducing resource usage. Other changes made during the development of 0.8 have helped to improve performance, which IMHO is critical if we want wider use of Freenet. On Friday 27 February 2009 23:18:37 Dennis Nezic wrote: What you are dreaming of is an entire newbie-freenet-platform, complete with newbie publishing tools (that power users would hate), and newbie newsgroup tools, and a newbie email client, etc etc. The reason why Toad et al will never do that is because it is simply too ambitious :) --there is /plenty/ of work that needs to be done on the invisible internals already. Moreover, why lock users into a single publishing tool (like jSite), or a single newsreader/email client, etc? Nevertheless, I do realize that that is precisely what is necessary if one wants to attract newbies. First of all, as long as it's all modular, and I can strip away all the guis and have a lean and barebones installation, I'm happy. But, second of all, you already can do what you're looking for :). It's essentially a packaging issue. Just make your own special B69FreenetPlatform installer that installs each of those components all pre-configured and integrated with one another :). I disagree. Freenet can and should include plugins implementing usable web-based chat, mail, and a freesite upload wizard. Being plugins, they can of course be removed. bzq's
[freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
Dennis Nezic wrote: > On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:47:09 +0100, bqz69 wrote: >> It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people. > > More details would help :P. In Gentoo Linux, I do "emerge freenet", and My main complain is, that is not possible to use Freenet anonymously for individual persons (without "friends"), which really is the main idea of Freenet. You are rigth, the very Freenet is very easy to install. But in order to use Freenet at fullest capabilities, you need tools like jSite - to publish your freesites FMS - to announce your freesites etc Freemail - freenet e-mail system These functions could be an integrated part of Freenet, as they are imperative to have - and they are not very easy to setup - I have made a Freenet minihowto (www.minihowto.org), and I can assure you it was not very easy for me to pin it all together about how to use a Freenet system. The Freenet program might be something like one combined GUI (Graphic User Interface) where everything could be done, in order to use Freenet at its maximum capabilities - that's my dream. I like -and admire the people who have made Freenet, but it just seems to me, as if the project is not developing very much at the moment - and I had a small hope, that my thread might awaken some ideas - that's all!
[freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:17:21 +0100, bqz69 wrote: > The Freenet program might be something like one combined GUI (Graphic > User Interface) where everything could be done, in order to use > Freenet at its maximum capabilities - that's my dream. What you are dreaming of is an entire newbie-freenet-platform, complete with newbie publishing tools (that power users would hate), and newbie newsgroup tools, and a newbie email client, etc etc. The reason why Toad et al will never do that is because it is simply too ambitious :) --there is /plenty/ of work that needs to be done on the invisible internals already. Moreover, why lock users into a single publishing tool (like jSite), or a single newsreader/email client, etc? Nevertheless, I do realize that that is precisely what is necessary if one wants to attract newbies. First of all, as long as it's all modular, and I can strip away all the guis and have a lean and barebones installation, I'm happy. But, second of all, you already can do what you're looking for :). It's essentially a packaging issue. Just make your own special B69FreenetPlatform installer that installs each of those components all pre-configured and integrated with one another :).
[freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
bqz69 wrote: > I was just wondering? > > I have tried out freenet for years, but it still seems not to be ready > for serious use by individual people, that is the huge group of ordinary > people out there on the Internet, who are in serious need for a Freenet. > > It can be used mostly only by small groups of smart people, who are more > or less programmers, really friends, closed groups or alike. > > I find freenet to be a very important project, for the freedom of speech > of the world, but freenet seems to have stopped up in its development. > > It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people, I find, > and not many people have "frinds" to exchange nodes with, in order to > become anonymous. > > The internet is in the middle of a very fast development phase, but > freenet just sits there more or less sleeping. > > I do not have any capabilities of programming myself, and is only a > possibly enduser of Freenet. > > Maybe some forces do not want Freenet to develop - or maybe it is really > only intended for small closed groups of people? > > Interested in hearing some comments *smile* Not many people having friends is really a weird comment seeing how social networking sites manage to gather people more and more. Even some anarchist sites that i know of are planning to release their social network portals, and that is incredible, seeing how you will have an argument with only two anarchists in the same room. - Volodya - -- http://eng.anarchopedia.org/ Anarchopedia, A Free Knowledge Portal http://www.freedomporn.org/ Freedom Porn, anarchist and activist smut "None of us are free until all of us are free."~ Mihail Bakunin
[freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:47:09 +0100, bqz69 wrote: > It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people. More details would help :P. In Gentoo Linux, I do "emerge freenet", and *done*. I have a running node ready to surf--err, maybe a quick wizard first :P. In Window$, I assume, you download the installer ball, double-click it, click Next a zillion times (as with any other installation), then you're done? So, if you're talking about the actual installation, how much easier would you like it to be? Have Micro$oft pre-package their OS with it? (I'm sure there are Linux distros that already do :P). If you mean using 3rd party programs on top of Freenet, well, that's a 3rd party issue :). But, again, you'll have to be more specific. I think you're /actually/ just frustrated that more people aren't using it yet, and need something to blame that on :P. I think tor is harder to setup and use, yet many more people seem to be using it. It could just be good (bad) ol' marketing--ie. tor has EFF behind it. Or perhaps most people don't yet see the benefits of the freenet approach, which does have substantial costs--slower surfing, more system resource load, until recently it required binary blobs (jvm), etc--in which case more government repression would certainly help us :). And since that is the natural inevitable cource of any coercive state, the future looks bright for freenet!
[freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
I was just wondering? I have tried out freenet for years, but it still seems not to be ready for serious use by individual people, that is the huge group of ordinary people out there on the Internet, who are in serious need for a Freenet. It can be used mostly only by small groups of smart people, who are more or less programmers, really friends, closed groups or alike. I find freenet to be a very important project, for the freedom of speech of the world, but freenet seems to have stopped up in its development. It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people, I find, and not many people have "frinds" to exchange nodes with, in order to become anonymous. The internet is in the middle of a very fast development phase, but freenet just sits there more or less sleeping. I do not have any capabilities of programming myself, and is only a possibly enduser of Freenet. Maybe some forces do not want Freenet to develop - or maybe it is really only intended for small closed groups of people? Interested in hearing some comments *smile*
Re: [freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
bqz69 wrote: I was just wondering? I have tried out freenet for years, but it still seems not to be ready for serious use by individual people, that is the huge group of ordinary people out there on the Internet, who are in serious need for a Freenet. It can be used mostly only by small groups of smart people, who are more or less programmers, really friends, closed groups or alike. I find freenet to be a very important project, for the freedom of speech of the world, but freenet seems to have stopped up in its development. It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people, I find, and not many people have frinds to exchange nodes with, in order to become anonymous. The internet is in the middle of a very fast development phase, but freenet just sits there more or less sleeping. I do not have any capabilities of programming myself, and is only a possibly enduser of Freenet. Maybe some forces do not want Freenet to develop - or maybe it is really only intended for small closed groups of people? Interested in hearing some comments *smile* Not many people having friends is really a weird comment seeing how social networking sites manage to gather people more and more. Even some anarchist sites that i know of are planning to release their social network portals, and that is incredible, seeing how you will have an argument with only two anarchists in the same room. - Volodya - -- http://eng.anarchopedia.org/ Anarchopedia, A Free Knowledge Portal http://www.freedomporn.org/ Freedom Porn, anarchist and activist smut None of us are free until all of us are free.~ Mihail Bakunin ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:47:09 +0100, bqz69 wrote: It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people. More details would help :P. In Gentoo Linux, I do emerge freenet, and *done*. I have a running node ready to surf--err, maybe a quick wizard first :P. In Window$, I assume, you download the installer ball, double-click it, click Next a zillion times (as with any other installation), then you're done? So, if you're talking about the actual installation, how much easier would you like it to be? Have Micro$oft pre-package their OS with it? (I'm sure there are Linux distros that already do :P). If you mean using 3rd party programs on top of Freenet, well, that's a 3rd party issue :). But, again, you'll have to be more specific. I think you're /actually/ just frustrated that more people aren't using it yet, and need something to blame that on :P. I think tor is harder to setup and use, yet many more people seem to be using it. It could just be good (bad) ol' marketing--ie. tor has EFF behind it. Or perhaps most people don't yet see the benefits of the freenet approach, which does have substantial costs--slower surfing, more system resource load, until recently it required binary blobs (jvm), etc--in which case more government repression would certainly help us :). And since that is the natural inevitable cource of any coercive state, the future looks bright for freenet! ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
Dennis Nezic wrote: On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 04:47:09 +0100, bqz69 wrote: It is still quite difficult to use and setup for normal people. More details would help :P. In Gentoo Linux, I do emerge freenet, and My main complain is, that is not possible to use Freenet anonymously for individual persons (without friends), which really is the main idea of Freenet. You are rigth, the very Freenet is very easy to install. But in order to use Freenet at fullest capabilities, you need tools like jSite - to publish your freesites FMS - to announce your freesites etc Freemail - freenet e-mail system These functions could be an integrated part of Freenet, as they are imperative to have - and they are not very easy to setup - I have made a Freenet minihowto (www.minihowto.org), and I can assure you it was not very easy for me to pin it all together about how to use a Freenet system. The Freenet program might be something like one combined GUI (Graphic User Interface) where everything could be done, in order to use Freenet at its maximum capabilities - that's my dream. I like -and admire the people who have made Freenet, but it just seems to me, as if the project is not developing very much at the moment - and I had a small hope, that my thread might awaken some ideas - that's all! ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 22:17:21 +0100, bqz69 wrote: The Freenet program might be something like one combined GUI (Graphic User Interface) where everything could be done, in order to use Freenet at its maximum capabilities - that's my dream. What you are dreaming of is an entire newbie-freenet-platform, complete with newbie publishing tools (that power users would hate), and newbie newsgroup tools, and a newbie email client, etc etc. The reason why Toad et al will never do that is because it is simply too ambitious :) --there is /plenty/ of work that needs to be done on the invisible internals already. Moreover, why lock users into a single publishing tool (like jSite), or a single newsreader/email client, etc? Nevertheless, I do realize that that is precisely what is necessary if one wants to attract newbies. First of all, as long as it's all modular, and I can strip away all the guis and have a lean and barebones installation, I'm happy. But, second of all, you already can do what you're looking for :). It's essentially a packaging issue. Just make your own special B69FreenetPlatform installer that installs each of those components all pre-configured and integrated with one another :). ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
[freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
bqz69 wrote: > I was just wondering? > I do not have any capabilities of programming myself, and is only a > possibly enduser of Freenet. I think that about sums it up right there. Most people involved in the project are end-users, and there seems to be only one paid and two or three volunteer coders working on it. While end-user feedback is very important in such a project, so is actual code weaving. Given that, I think they've been doing an excellent job. -- Fuzzy love, -CyberLeo Technical Administrator CyberLeo.Net Webhosting http://www.CyberLeo.Net Furry Peace! - http://.fur.com/peace/
Re: [freenet-support] Why is the development of the freenet project going so slow
bqz69 wrote: I was just wondering? snip I do not have any capabilities of programming myself, and is only a possibly enduser of Freenet. I think that about sums it up right there. Most people involved in the project are end-users, and there seems to be only one paid and two or three volunteer coders working on it. While end-user feedback is very important in such a project, so is actual code weaving. Given that, I think they've been doing an excellent job. -- Fuzzy love, -CyberLeo Technical Administrator CyberLeo.Net Webhosting http://www.CyberLeo.Net cyber...@cyberleo.net Furry Peace! - http://.fur.com/peace/ ___ Support mailing list Support@freenetproject.org http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.support Unsubscribe at http://emu.freenetproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/support Or mailto:support-requ...@freenetproject.org?subject=unsubscribe
