date:20121220

On 12/20/12 6:30 PM, NoOp wrote:
> On 12/19/2012 11:59 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
>> On 12/19/12 10:53 AM, Rob wrote:
> ...
>>> (I know I should join the development team instead of criticize,
>>> however while I have done a lot of C programming in the past this
>>> project is simply too large for me.  I tried finding the location
>>> of a bug before, but even knowing what I was looking for I could
>>> not locate the sourcefile where the function that I was looking
>>> for was being performed...)
>>>
>>
>> However, the problem is easily resolved by composing only
>> ASCII-formatted messages.
>>
> 
> I agree. However, I think that this is better discussed in another
> thread and/or mozilla.general... The responses to your post have
> absolutely *nothing* to do with the original OP's issue. In this case,
> SeaMonkey's 'Shift+k' works well.

I agree that the discussion has veered off the original topic.  All I
did was suggest the work-around of using ASCII-formatted messages.  I
might have added "until the bug is fixed."

-- 

David E. Ross

Anyone who thinks government owns a monopoly on inefficient, obstructive
bureaucracy has obviously never worked for a large corporation.
© 1997 by David E. Ross
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

2012-12-20 Thread NoOp

On 12/19/2012 11:59 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 12/19/12 10:53 AM, Rob wrote:
...
>> (I know I should join the development team instead of criticize,
>> however while I have done a lot of C programming in the past this
>> project is simply too large for me.  I tried finding the location
>> of a bug before, but even knowing what I was looking for I could
>> not locate the sourcefile where the function that I was looking
>> for was being performed...)
>> 
> 
> However, the problem is easily resolved by composing only
> ASCII-formatted messages.
> 

I agree. However, I think that this is better discussed in another
thread and/or mozilla.general... The responses to your post have
absolutely *nothing* to do with the original OP's issue. In this case,
SeaMonkey's 'Shift+k' works well.







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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


Ed Mullen wrote:




HTML email has become a de-facto standard for corporate email.  Look
around.



and we all know the the "corporate world" can do no wrong!! . *NOT*

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


Ed Mullen wrote:

Philip TAYLOR wrote:



Ed Mullen wrote:


Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where
are you text-only people coming from?


A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.

Philip Taylor



And with my 15Mbps download connection???  Who cares?  C'mon.  It's
2012, almost 2013.  Get real.



Says more about you than anything else, Ed!!

A large portion of web users are no where near capable of 15Mbps speeds!!

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


David E. Ross wrote:

On 12/19/12 5:09 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:

Rob wrote:

David E. Ross  wrote:

However, the problem is easily resolved by composing only
ASCII-formatted messages.


This is not realistic in today's world when using the program
in a company.  Most mail being processed is in HTML.
We even have HTML signatures.



Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are
you text-only people coming from?



Read my .  You will see
from where I come.  Then read my
.



David, I respect most of your posts but I did read both of your URLs and 
find them outdated and anachronistic.


MOST email sent today is HTML.  You can hew to text only if you like but 
you are out of date.  As I said, all email (not newsgroup posts) I have 
sent since the early 90s have been HTML.  That's company and personal.


Also, most of the arguments about plain text as a preferred format hinge 
on outdated bandwidth issues that haven't existed in a decade or more. 
Sure, a few people are living in the outer reaches and are using 
dial-up.  But, really?  How many?  Damned few.  Join the second decade 
of the new millenium.  Geez.



HTML email has become a de-facto standard for corporate email.  Look around.

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http://edmullen.net/
When God is amazed, does he say:  "Oh my Me!"?
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


David E. Ross wrote:

On 12/20/12 9:29 AM, Rob wrote:

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:



Rob wrote:


The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.

People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.


That means mail /can/ include markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.
But it does not have to.  As this message demonstrates.


What does this message demonstrate?


It deomonstrates that meaningful information can indeed be communicated
without HTML formatting.


That is NOT what this is about.

--
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When God is amazed, does he say:  "Oh my Me!"?
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


Philip TAYLOR wrote:



Rob wrote:


The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.

People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.


That means mail /can/ include markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.
But it does not have to.  As this message demonstrates.


I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.


And how many of those business, and what fraction of that software,
addresses the vital issue of accessibility ?  When I send an e-mail,
there is not a blind computer user on this planet who does not have
access to its contents, if it reaches him or her.  90+% of the HTML
e-mails I receive are completely inaccessible to blind people : no "alt"
attributes, no "longdesc"s, no accommodation whatsoever to those who do
not have sight.  That world is not for me.

Philip Taylor



How many blind people are you sending email to, Philip?

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drives a race car not called a racist?

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


Rob wrote:

David E. Ross  wrote:

On 12/20/12 6:40 AM, Rob wrote:

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:



Ed Mullen wrote:


Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
text-only people coming from?


A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.


The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.

People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.

I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.



You describe a world where fluff is more important than information.


But that is the real world.  You can deny that, but it only describes
your (lack of) relation with the real world, not the actual situation
in the real world.



+1


--
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Why is a person who plays the piano called a pianist, but a person who 
drives a race car not called a racist?

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


Rob wrote:

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:



Ed Mullen wrote:


Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
text-only people coming from?


A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.


The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.

People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.

I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.



+1

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
Why is a person who plays the piano called a pianist, but a person who 
drives a race car not called a racist?

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


Philip TAYLOR wrote:



Ed Mullen wrote:


Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
text-only people coming from?


A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.

Philip Taylor



And with my 15Mbps download connection???  Who cares?  C'mon.  It's 
2012, almost 2013.  Get real.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


David E. Ross wrote:

On 12/20/12 6:40 AM, Rob wrote:

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:



Ed Mullen wrote:


Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
text-only people coming from?


A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.


The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.

People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.

I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.



You describe a world where fluff is more important than information.



Nonsense.  You are living in an outdated world.  HTML email has been the 
norm since the early to mid 90s.


I don't care if you choose to live that way, but the vast majority of us 
do not.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
Why is a person who plays the piano called a pianist, but a person who 
drives a race car not called a racist?

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

2012-12-20 Thread Ray_Net


Rob wrote, On 20/12/2012 19:31:

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:


Rob wrote:


What does this message demonstrate?

That information can be transmitted very successfully using e-mail
without requiring HTML, markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.

But I never denied that!
What I claim is that it requires HTML mail to transmit e-mail messages
as today's users want to see them.  And I am thankful that HTML made
its way into mail, because if that wouldn't have happened then all
marked-up mail would now be in Microsoft Rich Text or even Microsoft
Word document format.  After all, that is what Microsofts entry into
the e-mail market produced by default until others pushed HTML just
in time.

I know that there exist a group that is definately against all mail
formatting and especially against HTML in mail, and isist that text
mail is good enough, but I think the majority of them are autists.

I agree with you. I just add, that when mail was ONLY in pure text we 
were obliged to create this kind of mail;
"You will find a sample letter to be sent to the customer in the 
attached word document"

Because pure text mail CANNOT transfer a CORRECT letter to a customer.

The time where the customer letters are coming from
 http://www.janetcaldwell.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/old-typewriter.jpg
is an antediluvian time. but the geeks here saying that mail must be 
only text mail are in that time.

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

2012-12-20 Thread Ray_Net


Philip TAYLOR wrote, On 20/12/2012 11:57:


Ed Mullen wrote:


Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
text-only people coming from?

A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.

Philip Taylor
I suppose that you never use SM to look on the web for infos ... or you 
look ONLY this kind of pages:



Information page (to save bandwidth)



This is only pure text infos
This is only pure text infos
This is only pure text infos



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Re: A simple problem to some.

2012-12-20 Thread Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Sandy wrote:

> Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
>> Sandy wrote:
>>> Hi Gals and Guys and firstly have a great Christmas and a greater New
>>> Year.  My simple problem is that I appear to have one unread message
>>> om m.s.seamonkey but no matter what I try I cannot find it.  Not a
>>> serious problem but I would like to remove it since it makes my
>>> maillist column look untidy.
>>
>> Have you tried setting the Inbox to Show Unread Only? Have you tried
>> right-click on Inbox and Mark Folder Read?
>>
> Thanks BTS.  I haven't tried either since it seems that they would both
> remove previous read messages and I don't want to do that.

No, it will not remove any messages, only control the visibility depending 
on the selection you make. If you change from Show Unread Only to Show 
All, there they all are.

Your erroneous count could be due to a mis-numbering in the control file. 
It could happen perhaps if a message was filtered (and still showing as 
Unread but you can't see it).

-- 
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   -This space for rent, but the price is high
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Re: A simple problem to some.

2012-12-20 Thread Paul B. Gallagher


Sandy wrote:


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Sandy wrote:


Hi Gals and Guys and firstly have a great Christmas and a greater New
Year.  My simple problem is that I appear to have one unread message om
m.s.seamonkey but no matter what I try I cannot find it.  Not a serious
problem but I would like to remove it since it makes my maillist column
look untidy.


Have you tried setting the Inbox to Show Unread Only?
Have you tried right-click on Inbox and Mark Folder Read?


Thanks BTS.  I haven't tried either since it seems that they would both
remove previous read messages and I don't want to do that.


Not to worry, display options in the newsreader don't remove messages, 
they only hide them. When you change your settings, a different subset 
of messages is shown, but the entire set is still available.


I would've said to set your options to display all messages, and then 
hit "N" to advance to the "Next unread message." If that doesn't do it, 
the program is confused like it used to be.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: Set the remember password checkmark by default?

2012-12-20 Thread Paul B. Gallagher


David E. Ross wrote:


On 12/20/12 7:33 AM, Mr. Cheese wrote:

Rob wrote:

When a mail account is accessed, the program asks for a password and
offers to remember this password.

Is it possible (via some pref?) to make the remember password checkmark
appear on by default?  (so the user can still uncheck it)


I'm on the latest SM update. SM never has asked me if I want to remember
an email account password. I wish it would. this is a source of great
irritation to me.



Your problem is that a growing number of Web sites use JavaScript to
handle logins, which is not supported by Password Manager.  See bug
#355063 at .
...


No, that wasn't his complaint.

I'm assuming since he didn't say either way that he's talking about 
downloading POP mail, not viewing it on a webmail site. In that case, 
SeaMonkey should ask for the password and ask whether it should remember 
it. And that's been my experience in the past.


--
War doesn't determine who's right, just who's left.
--
Paul B. Gallagher

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Re: A simple problem to some.

2012-12-20 Thread Sandy


Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Sandy wrote:


Hi Gals and Guys and firstly have a great Christmas and a greater New
Year.  My simple problem is that I appear to have one unread message om
m.s.seamonkey but no matter what I try I cannot find it.  Not a serious
problem but I would like to remove it since it makes my maillist column
look untidy.


Have you tried setting the Inbox to Show Unread Only?
Have you tried right-click on Inbox and Mark Folder Read?

Thanks BTS.  I haven't tried either since it seems that they would both 
remove previous read messages and I don't want to do that.


--
Sandy Morton
On the bicycle island
In the global village
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Re: A simple problem to some.

2012-12-20 Thread Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Sandy wrote:

> Hi Gals and Guys and firstly have a great Christmas and a greater New
> Year.  My simple problem is that I appear to have one unread message om
> m.s.seamonkey but no matter what I try I cannot find it.  Not a serious
> problem but I would like to remove it since it makes my maillist column
> look untidy.

Have you tried setting the Inbox to Show Unread Only?
Have you tried right-click on Inbox and Mark Folder Read?

-- 
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   -This space for rent, but the price is high
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A simple problem to some.

2012-12-20 Thread Sandy

Hi Gals and Guys and firstly have a great Christmas and a greater New 
Year.  My simple problem is that I appear to have one unread message om 
m.s.seamonkey but no matter what I try I cannot find it.  Not a serious 
problem but I would like to remove it since it makes my maillist column 
look untidy.

--
Sandy Morton
On the bicycle island
In the global village
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

David E. Ross  wrote:
> On 12/20/12 9:29 AM, Rob wrote:
>> Philip TAYLOR  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Rob wrote:
>>>
 The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
 Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.

 People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
 like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
 That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.
>>>
>>> That means mail /can/ include markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.
>>> But it does not have to.  As this message demonstrates.
>> 
>> What does this message demonstrate?
>
> It deomonstrates that meaningful information can indeed be communicated
> without HTML formatting.

Not something that is interesting to demonstrate.
What needs to be demonstrated is that people can communicate in
business style, with company letterhead and logo, in text with markup.
That is what businesses want or need.

>> It appears the accessability software industry focusses heavily on
>> mainstream software and less on opensource products.  That is more
>> of an issue than the mail being HTML or text.
>> 
>
> Yes, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey do a relatively good job in composing
> valid HTML for E-mail.  As this thread reveals, however, the HTML is not
> totally valid.  Too often, it contains "tag soup".

It is caused by carelessness of the developers.  It was okay until
people made changes and did not do full testing.  Now it is difficult
to find the person who did this and ask him to fix or undo the changes,
and other people start uttering things like "let's rip out the editor
and start anew".  Not very constructive.

> Other E-mail applications are not as good in creating valid HTML.

Fortunately that is not really what the screen readers are looking for.
They really read what is shown on the screen, they don't particularly
care how it lands there (from a Word document, a text mail or a HTML mail).

The exception is the case where the program does all the rendering in
internal code and just outputs a pixel map.  Then the screen reader has
a more difficult job.  But that is mainly determined by the program
not by the mail format (the exception being those mails that send the
text as an image, but they normally are not worth reading anyway).
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:
>
>
> Rob wrote:
>
>> What does this message demonstrate?
>
> That information can be transmitted very successfully using e-mail
> without requiring HTML, markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.

But I never denied that!
What I claim is that it requires HTML mail to transmit e-mail messages
as today's users want to see them.  And I am thankful that HTML made
its way into mail, because if that wouldn't have happened then all
marked-up mail would now be in Microsoft Rich Text or even Microsoft
Word document format.  After all, that is what Microsofts entry into
the e-mail market produced by default until others pushed HTML just
in time.

I know that there exist a group that is definately against all mail
formatting and especially against HTML in mail, and isist that text
mail is good enough, but I think the majority of them are autists.

>> It appears the accessability software industry focusses heavily on
>> mainstream software and less on opensource products.  That is more
>> of an issue than the mail being HTML or text.
>
> No accessibility software in the world will help him all the while
> that e-mail authors believe that presenting text as image, with
> no or minimal ALT information, is "communicating", which is what
> e-mail is (or should be) all about.

What you discuss is spam.  Normal HTML e-mail is not in that format,
it uses plain text with HTML markup tags.  With some mailers there
are more tags then useful text, but that is not something that
bothers the end-user.   Seamonkey was fine until a year ago, then
the bad things started happening.   This is not the fault of HTML
mail, it is the fault of the developers.
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

On 12/20/12 9:29 AM, Rob wrote:
> Philip TAYLOR  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rob wrote:
>>
>>> The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
>>> Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.
>>>
>>> People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
>>> like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
>>> That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.
>>
>> That means mail /can/ include markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.
>> But it does not have to.  As this message demonstrates.
> 
> What does this message demonstrate?

It deomonstrates that meaningful information can indeed be communicated
without HTML formatting.

>>> I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
>>> but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.
>>
>> And how many of those business, and what fraction of that software,
>> addresses the vital issue of accessibility ?  When I send an e-mail,
>> there is not a blind computer user on this planet who does not have
>> access to its contents, if it reaches him or her.  90+% of the HTML
>> e-mails I receive are completely inaccessible to blind people : no "alt"
>> attributes, no "longdesc"s, no accommodation whatsoever to those who do
>> not have sight.  That world is not for me.
> 
> We have a blind user in the company.  He uses Seamonkey with special
> software that reads the contents of his mails using a voice synthesizer.
> It is kind of a pain because the software must be told after every
> Seamonkey release that Seamonkey is really Firefox, but aside from
> that it works OK.  There really is no performance difference between
> HTML and text mail while doing this text to speech.
> 
> But he keeps insisting that the support for mainstream software like
> Internet Explorer, Outlook and Adobe Reader (we use an alternative PDF
> reader as well) is much much better than for the software we have.
> 
> It appears the accessability software industry focusses heavily on
> mainstream software and less on opensource products.  That is more
> of an issue than the mail being HTML or text.
> 

Yes, Thunderbird and SeaMonkey do a relatively good job in composing
valid HTML for E-mail.  As this thread reveals, however, the HTML is not
totally valid.  Too often, it contains "tag soup".

Other E-mail applications are not as good in creating valid HTML.
Businesses that use such applications in the U.S. risk running afoul of
the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) because their E-mail -- and
their Web sites -- cannot be processed with audio browsers for the
blind.  In 2008, this situation cost Target Stores $6,000,000 in damages
plus a requirement for Target to have the National Federation of the
Blind monitor -- at Target's expense -- the future evolution of Target's
Web site.

ASCII-formatted E-mail and W3C-validation of Web pages avoid such
problems, problems that sometimes appear even in E-mail messages
generated by Thunderbird and SeaMonkey.

-- 

David E. Ross

Anyone who thinks government owns a monopoly on inefficient, obstructive
bureaucracy has obviously never worked for a large corporation.
© 1997 by David E. Ross
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

2012-12-20 Thread Philip TAYLOR

Rob wrote:

> What does this message demonstrate?

That information can be transmitted very successfully using e-mail
without requiring HTML, markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.

> It appears the accessability software industry focusses heavily on
> mainstream software and less on opensource products.  That is more
> of an issue than the mail being HTML or text.

No accessibility software in the world will help him all the while
that e-mail authors believe that presenting text as image, with
no or minimal ALT information, is "communicating", which is what
e-mail is (or should be) all about.  I opened my junk e-mail folder
and took the very first entry.  The sighted user will see the
contents of

http://www.videoprint.cl/news/feb12/videoprint.jpg

and read "Videoprint.cl (Tel) 02 2253413 Bruno Mars La fusion
definitiva entre el video y la publicacion impresa".  The blind
user will be presented with the contents of the ALT attribute
(no LONGDESC present) and be told "videoprint.cl".

This is the relevant part of the e-mail :

http://www.videoprint.cl/news/feb12/videoprint.jpg";
width="550" border="0">

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Re: Set the remember password checkmark by default?

Mr. Cheese  wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>> When a mail account is accessed, the program asks for a password and
>> offers to remember this password.
>>
>> Is it possible (via some pref?) to make the remember password checkmark
>> appear on by default?  (so the user can still uncheck it)
>>
> I'm on the latest SM update. SM never has asked me if I want to remember 
> an email account password. I wish it would. this is a source of great 
> irritation to me.

Are you (like me) talking about email accounts in the "Mail and Newsgroups"
section of Seamonkey, or about webmail accounts that you access using
the browser?
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:
>
>
> Rob wrote:
>
>> The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
>> Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.
>>
>> People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
>> like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
>> That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.
>
> That means mail /can/ include markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.
> But it does not have to.  As this message demonstrates.

What does this message demonstrate?

>> I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
>> but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.
>
> And how many of those business, and what fraction of that software,
> addresses the vital issue of accessibility ?  When I send an e-mail,
> there is not a blind computer user on this planet who does not have
> access to its contents, if it reaches him or her.  90+% of the HTML
> e-mails I receive are completely inaccessible to blind people : no "alt"
> attributes, no "longdesc"s, no accommodation whatsoever to those who do
> not have sight.  That world is not for me.

We have a blind user in the company.  He uses Seamonkey with special
software that reads the contents of his mails using a voice synthesizer.
It is kind of a pain because the software must be told after every
Seamonkey release that Seamonkey is really Firefox, but aside from
that it works OK.  There really is no performance difference between
HTML and text mail while doing this text to speech.

But he keeps insisting that the support for mainstream software like
Internet Explorer, Outlook and Adobe Reader (we use an alternative PDF
reader as well) is much much better than for the software we have.

It appears the accessability software industry focusses heavily on
mainstream software and less on opensource products.  That is more
of an issue than the mail being HTML or text.
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

David E. Ross  wrote:
> On 12/20/12 6:40 AM, Rob wrote:
>> Philip TAYLOR  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Ed Mullen wrote:
>>>
 Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are 
 you text-only people coming from?
>>>
>>> A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
>>> not 2500.
>> 
>> The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
>> Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.
>> 
>> People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
>> like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
>> That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.
>> 
>> I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
>> but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.
>> 
>
> You describe a world where fluff is more important than information.

But that is the real world.  You can deny that, but it only describes
your (lack of) relation with the real world, not the actual situation
in the real world.
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

2012-12-20 Thread Philip TAYLOR

Rob wrote:

> The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
> Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.
>
> People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
> like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
> That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.

That means mail /can/ include markup, letter-heads, signatures, etc.
But it does not have to.  As this message demonstrates.

> I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
> but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.

And how many of those business, and what fraction of that software,
addresses the vital issue of accessibility ?  When I send an e-mail,
there is not a blind computer user on this planet who does not have
access to its contents, if it reaches him or her.  90+% of the HTML
e-mails I receive are completely inaccessible to blind people : no "alt"
attributes, no "longdesc"s, no accommodation whatsoever to those who do
not have sight.  That world is not for me.

Philip Taylor

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Re: Set the remember password checkmark by default?

On 12/20/12 7:33 AM, Mr. Cheese wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>> When a mail account is accessed, the program asks for a password and
>> offers to remember this password.
>>
>> Is it possible (via some pref?) to make the remember password checkmark
>> appear on by default?  (so the user can still uncheck it)
>>
> I'm on the latest SM update. SM never has asked me if I want to remember 
> an email account password. I wish it would. this is a source of great 
> irritation to me.
> 

Your problem is that a growing number of Web sites use JavaScript to
handle logins, which is not supported by Password Manager.  See bug
#355063 at .

In other cases, the user ID and password are entered on separate pages.
 While the Password Manager can supply the password in this case, the
password had to be saved when the Web site had both user ID and password
on the same page.  That is, it cannot save the password in this case.
This is bug #348941 at
.

Then there are Web sites that actively block the saving of passwords.
There used to be an easy tweak to defeat most (but not all) such blocks,
but a change in the Password Manager eliminated our ability to do that
tweak.  This is bug #425145 at
.  Installing the
Remember Passwords extension from

is a good work-around for this.

-- 

David E. Ross

Anyone who thinks government owns a monopoly on inefficient, obstructive
bureaucracy has obviously never worked for a large corporation.
© 1997 by David E. Ross
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

On 12/20/12 6:40 AM, Rob wrote:
> Philip TAYLOR  wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ed Mullen wrote:
>>
>>> Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are 
>>> you text-only people coming from?
>>
>> A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
>> not 2500.
> 
> The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
> Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.
> 
> People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
> like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
> That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.
> 
> I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
> but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.
> 

You describe a world where fluff is more important than information.

-- 

David E. Ross

Anyone who thinks government owns a monopoly on inefficient, obstructive
bureaucracy has obviously never worked for a large corporation.
© 1997 by David E. Ross
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

On 12/19/12 5:09 PM, Ed Mullen wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>> David E. Ross  wrote:
>>> However, the problem is easily resolved by composing only
>>> ASCII-formatted messages.
>>
>> This is not realistic in today's world when using the program
>> in a company.  Most mail being processed is in HTML.
>> We even have HTML signatures.
>>
> 
> Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are 
> you text-only people coming from?
> 

Read my .  You will see
from where I come.  Then read my
.

-- 

David E. Ross

Anyone who thinks government owns a monopoly on inefficient, obstructive
bureaucracy has obviously never worked for a large corporation.
© 1997 by David E. Ross
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Re: Set the remember password checkmark by default?

2012-12-20 Thread Mr. Cheese


Rob wrote:

When a mail account is accessed, the program asks for a password and
offers to remember this password.

Is it possible (via some pref?) to make the remember password checkmark
appear on by default?  (so the user can still uncheck it)

I'm on the latest SM update. SM never has asked me if I want to remember 
an email account password. I wish it would. this is a source of great 
irritation to me.

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Bookmark Tags

2012-12-20 Thread JohnW-Mpls

Bookmark Tags
(Follow-on to "A Suggestion About Bookmarks")

I finally got CheckPlaces 2.6.2 installed in my SM (2.14.1 under XP). It
checked out my bookmarks by removing some dupes, etc., but not much else.

I have the impression that bookmark's tags is, our could be, the key to
managing bookmarks - they show up nicely with the bookmark URLs in searches.
However, editing of tags seems to be limited to manual editing of each
bookmark individually - a major task for my over 100 bookmarks that don't
have a tag.  I would like:- after revising a group's tag, to then have that
revision copied into the tag field of each bookmark in that group.

Editing tags by groups seemed like something I could do in the bookmark.htm
file that SM exports and imports.  However, there is no tag field in those
htm files.

Any suggestions?

-- 
 JohnW-Mpls
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

Philip TAYLOR  wrote:
>
>
> Ed Mullen wrote:
>
>> Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
>> text-only people coming from?
>
> A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
> not 2500.

The world today is no longer about bytes or kilobytes.
Today we calculate in megabytes, gigabytes or terabytes.

People no longer treat mail as a novelty that can transfer messages
like a telex did in the past.   They use it like a fax or letter.
That means mail includes mark-up, letterhead, vcard-like signatures, etc.

I have no problem if you want to aleniate yourself from that world,
but it is the world that businesses and software operates in.
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

Rob wrote:

Philip Chee wrote:

I think some priority has to be given to fix both bugs.
The pretty-printing should at least be made optional, defaulting
to off, and the change that introduced the problem should
be reverted or looked at.

I had to disable font size preselection (by lockPref) temporarily
to work around the issues it causes. But I know of no way to turn
off the pretty-printing.

Bug 812638 - Thunderbird is inserting random and incorrect tags in the middle of words throughout my email message. (edit)

I know about that bug, but I think the discussion is wandering off
into a "let's replace the editor" megaproject instead of making sure
this bug is fixed before the next release.

That is (I wrote before) what I sometimes find disturbing. People work
on the code, that is fine. They sometimes break things, that can happen.
But then it should be their responsability to fix what they have broken
and introduce the fix in the release process as soon as possible, not
to fix it in the trunk and wait two more major releases before it is
finally fixed for the end-users, and certainly not going off into a
major redevelopment program that may take years to finish while leaving
the existing users fighting the problems.

I sometimes wonder if "Block Diagrams" are used much when programming
now-a-days!! If they were, and were kept accurate, the programmers
should be able to see, if they make a change in one block to suit a
particular function, which other functions might also be effected!!

--
Daniel

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)


Philip TAYLOR wrote:



Ed Mullen wrote:


Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
text-only people coming from?


A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.

Philip Taylor



Amen, Philip!

--
Daniel

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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)

2012-12-20 Thread Philip TAYLOR



Ed Mullen wrote:

> Amen.  The last job I had was in 1996 and ALL email was HTML.  Where are you 
> text-only people coming from?

A world that recognises that it takes only 10 bytes to say "Thank you.",
not 2500.

Philip Taylor
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Re: Nasty font tag bug in newish versions (maybe since 2.13)