Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
--On 28 October 2012 20:00 -0700 Robert Greene gre...@math.ucla.edu wrote: I think compressed surround stuff is a nonstarter in the real world. You would be looking for a person who cared a lot about surround but did not give a darn about sound quality. I doubt that there are many such! DTS is still by far the easiest way to get decoded ambisonic content out there. As for compression... decently applied compression isn't that bad, really. And since I consider the reduction of surround to stereo another form of damaging compression, it may be a matter of swings and roundabouts. In time, all compression will go away, but we're not quite there yet. Paul -- Paul Hodges ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
On 28 Oct 2012, at 22:34, Stefan Schreiber st...@mail.telepac.pt wrote: When Ambi VLC happens, I predict the re-surrection of UHJ. Simple 2 channels will remain the most important distribution format in the forseable future. This is real surround sound? Why not Dolby Surround...:-D Despite a lot of stupid badmouthing, UHJ works, Dolby Surround does not; and things like SACD, DVD-Audio etc. have been sunk effectively by the cost of playback systems and the greed of the record industry which was unable to read the signs of the times (more things competing for the same little bit of disposable income) and thus insisted on premium pricing rather than at price levels that would have pitched the new formats as CD replacements. As I said countless times before it's about REALISTIC AMBIENCE, I'm not trying to train my sniper rifle on any musician while listening to music, so I could care less if the localization isn't as accurate as some full B-format or HOA recording as compared to the real layout of the people. I wasn't at the concert, and 99.99% of listeners weren't there either, and nobody knows or cares if the first violin was indeed 2 feet to the left of where we think it is. What realistic people care about, that there's a distribution channel for stereo, and that UHJ is stereo compatible, meaning that the audience is bigger, and the few people who are interested in surround sound actually have a chance of getting a reasonably sized catalog of stereo recordings that are also surround compatible; and for the foreseeable future, that's as good as it's going to get, because the music industry doesn't produce music for less than 1% of the market. So you get some stereo compatible music, or you get nothing. Frankly, who cares about the 3 dozen high-end surround recordings being made? For the most part they are esoteric pieces, and rarely do they have the type of world-class musicians that major labels attract, and even if they did, I don't care to listen to the same 50 recordings over and over again. Surround sound will not progress as long as the people involved refuse to be part of a process that on the commercial side takes baby steps, and instead insist on certain minimal standards that constitute too big of a leap of ever being considered by commercial interests, both in the music industry and in consumer electronics. Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
On 28 Oct 2012, at 03:11, Richard Lee rica...@justnet.com.au wrote: This will be a lossy compressed format probably based on the public domain Vorbis. Unless things have changed a lot, last I checked lossy compression messes up phase relationships, and that would be an issue for things like UHJ, which as long as portable stereo players with limited battery life (and thus limited CPUs), is the only viable, because stereo compatible, distribution format. At this point in time, not only is most music listened on mobile devices, most music is even purchased on mobile devices, and that's strictly a stereo (or maybe binaural) world. Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Here! Here! (Goes back under stone. Now, where's my old Minim and my relatively uncompressed CD's?) On 29 Oct 2012, at 14:28, Ronald C.F. Antony r...@cubiculum.com wrote: On 28 Oct 2012, at 22:34, Stefan Schreiber st...@mail.telepac.pt wrote: When Ambi VLC happens, I predict the re-surrection of UHJ. Simple 2 channels will remain the most important distribution format in the forseable future. This is real surround sound? Why not Dolby Surround...:-D Despite a lot of stupid badmouthing, UHJ works, Dolby Surround does not; and things like SACD, DVD-Audio etc. have been sunk effectively by the cost of playback systems and the greed of the record industry which was unable to read the signs of the times (more things competing for the same little bit of disposable income) and thus insisted on premium pricing rather than at price levels that would have pitched the new formats as CD replacements. As I said countless times before it's about REALISTIC AMBIENCE, I'm not trying to train my sniper rifle on any musician while listening to music, so I could care less if the localization isn't as accurate as some full B-format or HOA recording as compared to the real layout of the people. I wasn't at the concert, and 99.99% of listeners weren't there either, and nobody knows or cares if the first violin was indeed 2 feet to the left of where we think it is. What realistic people care about, that there's a distribution channel for stereo, and that UHJ is stereo compatible, meaning that the audience is bigger, and the few people who are interested in surround sound actually have a chance of getting a reasonably sized catalog of stereo recordings that are also surround compatible; and for the foreseeable future, that's as good as it's going to get, because the music industry doesn't produce music for less than 1% of the market. So you get some stereo compatible music, or you get nothing. Frankly, who cares about the 3 dozen high-end surround recordings being made? For the most part they are esoteric pieces, and rarely do they have the type of world-class musicians that major labels attract, and even if they did, I don't care to listen to the same 50 recordings over and over again. Surround sound will not progress as long as the people involved refuse to be part of a process that on the commercial side takes baby steps, and instead insist on certain minimal standards that constitute too big of a leap of ever being considered by commercial interests, both in the music industry and in consumer electronics. Ronald ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
At this point in time, not only is most music listened on mobile devices, most music is even purchased on mobile devices, and that's strictly a stereo (or maybe binaural) world. With a custom iPhone/Android app that employs headtracking (+ headsets) on iPhone/Android devices ... you have a *huge* market capable of accessing a quality spatial audio experience. Better yet ... the quality of experience is consistent. No stuffing around with speaker positions, different decodes, file formats, or even higher order ambisonics (there's a paper by n.mariette that shows that with head tracking listeners are just as capable of pinpointing sound sources with b-format as they are with higher res spatialisations). B-format is enough. Etienne ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: On 28 Oct 2012, at 22:34, Stefan Schreiber st...@mail.telepac.pt wrote: When Ambi VLC happens, I predict the re-surrection of UHJ. Simple 2 channels will remain the most important distribution format in the forseable future. This is real surround sound? Why not Dolby Surround...:-D Despite a lot of stupid badmouthing, UHJ works, Dolby Surround does not; and things like SACD, DVD-Audio etc. have been sunk effectively by the cost of playback systems and the greed of the record industry which was unable to read the signs of the times (more things competing for the same little bit of disposable income) and thus insisted on premium pricing rather than at price levels that would have pitched the new formats as CD replacements. As I said countless times before it's about REALISTIC AMBIENCE, I'm not trying to train my sniper rifle on any musician while listening to music, so I could care less if the localization isn't as accurate as some full B-format or HOA recording as compared to the real layout of the people. I wasn't at the concert, and 99.99% of listeners weren't there either, and nobody knows or cares if the first violin was indeed 2 feet to the left of where we think it is. What realistic people care about, that there's a distribution channel for stereo, and that UHJ is stereo compatible, meaning that the audience is bigger, and the few people who are interested in surround sound actually have a chance of getting a reasonably sized catalog of stereo recordings that are also surround compatible; and for the foreseeable future, that's as good as it's going to get, because the music industry doesn't produce music for less than 1% of the market. So you get some stereo compatible music, or you get nothing. Frankly, who cares about the 3 dozen high-end surround recordings being made? For the most part they are esoteric pieces, and rarely do they have the type of world-class musicians that major labels attract, and even if they did, I don't care to listen to the same 50 recordings over and over again. Surround sound will not progress as long as the people involved refuse to be part of a process that on the commercial side takes baby steps, and instead insist on certain minimal standards that constitute too big of a leap of ever being considered by commercial interests, both in the music industry and in consumer electronics. Ronald Ronald, most if not all (classical) recordings where I am participating are done in a way that they could be issued in 5.1 (or say 5.0) surround, namely several Pentatone recordings, and even the more recent television/radio stuff. I would guess that every good orchestra recording is done in this way (which means could be issued in 2.0/stereo, 5.1 or other formats). My hint to Dolby Surround was ironic (as many guys on this list oppose anything from Dolby), but you have to admit that there exist many (matrixed) Dolby surround mixes for film use. (And also and very obviously discrete 5.1 surround mixes, which are superior.) UHJ works, but it is also a matrixed format and arguably not a complete surround format, because 2 cannels are not enough. (I would say 5.1 is better, this doesn't seem to be an opinion.) Secondly, the UHJ system should have some issues even in stereo, because of the matrix. Write to Apple that they should publish 5.1 (and maybe .AMB files etc.), and forget about old compromises. (You can continue to promote UHJ, but I am sure this won't fly because you say people ideally would have to record via soundfield mics. If you mix a UHJ recording from spot mics, you also could mix to 5.1 ...) Frankly, who cares about the 3 dozen high-end surround recordings being made? This is exactly the attitude which is the road to nowhere. There are real progresses in surround sound/audio, a 3D Audio codec (codecs) should be part of MPEG-H by 2013 or 2014. (At least cinema use, I gave them my opinion that there should be more areas.) I wasn't at the concert, and 99.99% of listeners weren't there either, and nobody knows or cares if the first violin was indeed 2 feet to the left of where we think it is. But that is not the point or sense of surround. Reveals several wrong assumptions from your part. (A surround recording can sound way more realistic than any stereo recording. The question of exact localization within the recording is for musicians - I am one - probably not the most important issue. It is still utmost important to have a credible soundstage at all, because it helps to separate instruments/voices.) Surround sound will not progress as long as the people involved refuse to be part of a process that on the commercial side takes baby steps, and instead insist on certain minimal standards that constitute too big of a leap of ever being considered by commercial interests, both in the music industry and in consumer electronics. Ronald
Re: [Sursound] Patent application: Data structure for HOA
Ronald C.F. Antony wrote: On 29 Oct 2012, at 18:47, etienne deleflie edelef...@gmail.com wrote: At this point in time, not only is most music listened on mobile devices, most music is even purchased on mobile devices, and that's strictly a stereo (or maybe binaural) world. With a custom iPhone/Android app that employs headtracking (+ headsets) on iPhone/Android devices ... you have a *huge* market capable of accessing a quality spatial audio experience. No, you don't have a huge market, because nobody want's to LOOK LIKE A DORK when wearing headphones. Unless you can convince Apple to make a special headphone cable, or adopt a special BT protocol, and have a super-slim, stylish, fashionable head set that is available in every Apple Store, your market is just as small as for any other decent system: the tiny fan base of decent surround sound. Oh yes, go to Apple and look if they listen to your ideas, and let others do their stuff instead of doing some promotion for some stylish, fahionable campany offering super slim products. (Samsung and Amazon sell also a lot of smartphones and tablets, by the way. If it i just about numbers, Samsungs sells actually more mobile phones...) I am really angry about these postings. Look for surround in your local Apple store, and if you find somen give us some news about. Otherwise, Apple and their fashionable products are offtopic. (I don't see any relationship to this thread, and even not to this audio list.) Good night, Stefan Schreiber ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
