Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Michael Chapman]

> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
>

I'd try looking at Graz* publications.

It won't help me, but may help other responders:
What is ear height ?

I.e. are the listeners at ground level?
Standing or sitting?

Michael

*Whilst they have done half spheres ... I think they avoided contending
with reflections ... ;-(>



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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Neil Waterman]

Listeners could be anywhere from more or less prone (floor level), through 
seated to standing, but located at the center of the dome. 

The main focus will be the front 90 degree arc, if that helps.

Thanks, Neil

On Feb 18, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Michael Chapman  wrote:

>> Greetings,
>> 
>> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
>> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
>> 
> 
> I'd try looking at Graz* publications.
> 
> It won't help me, but may help other responders:
> What is ear height ?
> 
> I.e. are the listeners at ground level?
> Standing or sitting?
> 
> Michael
> 
> *Whilst they have done half spheres ... I think they avoided contending
> with reflections ... ;-(>
> 
> 
> 
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> 

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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Ben Bloomberg]

We did the American Museum of Natural History planetarium. It's
a perforated, painted 70ft aluminum dome with 24 Meyer boxes behind it and
a cluster of CQ2's and subs at the top splayed out pointing in 360 degrees
audience (sort of like a front fill).

The reflections made it really difficult to have any kind of coherence and
this was the best possible scenario, with the speakers outside the dome
pointing in.

What I noticed was the ambisonic material felt very "high" compared to
other spaces. It would have been nice to have speakers below the dome,
especially subs to pull the image downward a bit by having sources below
the audience as well as above.

There wasn't enough time to be particularly scientific about the whole
thing, but those were my impressions. The audience seemed to like it quite
a bit other than that.

Ben


On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Michael Chapman  wrote:

> > Greetings,
> >
> > Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> > sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
> >
>
> I'd try looking at Graz* publications.
>
> It won't help me, but may help other responders:
> What is ear height ?
>
> I.e. are the listeners at ground level?
> Standing or sitting?
>
> Michael
>
> *Whilst they have done half spheres ... I think they avoided contending
> with reflections ... ;-(>
>
>
>
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> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>
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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi there -
I did several large  (about 4 acres) walk through  sound installations in
the dome shaped tropical biome at the Eden project in Cornwall . I guess my
application would be very different from yours. I designed the sound
installation in an adjacent dome first - there were the weirdest
reflections ever - for example at certain frequencies the sound pooled and
was louder in one tiny patch on the other side of the building than 3 m
away from the speaker etc etc. When I got it in the main biome it sounded
completely different of course.
The only thing I can advise you is not to go in with a set idea of how your
going to do it but to try different configurations and see what sounds best
once your in there - I know its a pain in the neck but these things usually
need to be tuned to acoustic peculiarities that are impossible to predict.
Its why I always like to have at elast three days before an event to do
this.
You can read about some the installations
here
Hope this helps !



On 18 February 2013 16:47, Neil Waterman  wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
>
> Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
>
> The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made of
> fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
> bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
>
> All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not full
> spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
>
> My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
> nightmare to put sound into…
>
> One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of directional
> speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a
> virtual speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My concern
> with this is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these
> dome areas) will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and end-up
> with a confused mess.
>
> For all of these domes there will be an 18" skirt area below the dome that
> could be used for loudspeakers around the periphery - is it better to try
> to beam the sound directly at the listeners position, or perhaps use a more
> diffuse speaker, facing up into the dome face? There will be space to get
> at least one speaker overhead for all configurations.
>
> Regards, Neil
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>



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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Dave Malham]

The guys you need to talk to are  Dave Worrall  and Kimmo Vennonen who
have one a lot of things in Geodesic domes down in Oz. Dave, at least,
was a member of this group- he as a website at
http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/


 Dave

On 18 February 2013 17:35, Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> Hi there -
> I did several large  (about 4 acres) walk through  sound installations in
> the dome shaped tropical biome at the Eden project in Cornwall . I guess my
> application would be very different from yours. I designed the sound
> installation in an adjacent dome first - there were the weirdest
> reflections ever - for example at certain frequencies the sound pooled and
> was louder in one tiny patch on the other side of the building than 3 m
> away from the speaker etc etc. When I got it in the main biome it sounded
> completely different of course.
> The only thing I can advise you is not to go in with a set idea of how your
> going to do it but to try different configurations and see what sounds best
> once your in there - I know its a pain in the neck but these things usually
> need to be tuned to acoustic peculiarities that are impossible to predict.
> Its why I always like to have at elast three days before an event to do
> this.
> You can read about some the installations
> here
> Hope this helps !
>
>
>
> On 18 February 2013 16:47, Neil Waterman  wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
>> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
>>
>> Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
>>
>> The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made of
>> fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
>> bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
>>
>> All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not full
>> spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
>>
>> My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
>> nightmare to put sound into…
>>
>> One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of directional
>> speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a
>> virtual speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My concern
>> with this is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these
>> dome areas) will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and end-up
>> with a confused mess.
>>
>> For all of these domes there will be an 18" skirt area below the dome that
>> could be used for loudspeakers around the periphery - is it better to try
>> to beam the sound directly at the listeners position, or perhaps use a more
>> diffuse speaker, facing up into the dome face? There will be space to get
>> at least one speaker overhead for all configurations.
>>
>> Regards, Neil
>>
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>>
>
>
>
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>
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-- 
As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University, so this
disclaimer is redundant


These are my own views and may or may not be shared by my employer

Dave Malham
Ex-Music Research Centre
Department of Music
The University of York
Heslington
York YO10 5DD
UK

'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio'
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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Augustine Leudar]

Please let us know anything you find out 

On 18 February 2013 17:50, Dave Malham  wrote:

> The guys you need to talk to are  Dave Worrall  and Kimmo Vennonen who
> have one a lot of things in Geodesic domes down in Oz. Dave, at least,
> was a member of this group- he as a website at
> http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/
>
>
>  Dave
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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[David Worrall]

On 19/02/2013, at 4:50 AM, Dave Malham wrote:

> The guys you need to talk to are  Dave Worrall  and Kimmo Vennonen who
> have one a lot of things in Geodesic domes down in Oz. Dave, at least,
> was a member of this group- he as a website at
> http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/
> 
> 
> Dave

Hi Dave (hope you're family is enjoying your retirement too :-) , All...
I'm still a member of this group - not much time ATM so just mostly lurking 
these days :-(  (*)

To hone Dave's reference: 
http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/index.php/polymedia-event-theatres
+ I'm in the design phase of a new one:
http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/index.php/polymedia-event-theatres/pet-3-dome-cluster

2 thoughts:
1. Comments by Ben and Augustine are excellent. The height 'cluister' that Ben 
mentions
> What I noticed was the ambisonic material felt very "high" compared to
> other spaces. It would have been nice to have speakers below the dome,
> especially subs to pull the image downward a bit by having sources below
> the audience as well as above.

is a known phenomena/problem. I guess it is related to whether you're playing 
recorder or synthesised material.
 If the latter, which was mostly our case, when loudspeakers are evenly placed 
on the surface of the hemisphere, then the speakers overhead seem to be too 
close together i.e cluster. This together w. the known coherence-death-zone 
(the centre of the spheroid), was somewhat overcome by eliminating the 
loudspeaker at the very top of the dome.

I concur that low-placed subs - even under the audience if possible, help to 
ground the sound. I couldn't work out from Ben's post whether his only subs 
were "at the top splayed out pointing in 360 degrees". If so, that would seem 
to be counter to one's sense of most low sounds being 'near the ground' ( low 
frequencies are heard more through the feet that the top of the head).

2. The reflective nature of the surface-to-surface and surface-to-floor 
couplings are critical. We used large projection screens and mounted 
acoustically absorbent material on the back of them to reduce the 
dome-as-resonator effect.

Hope this helps. Some photos might be useful, as they often reveal things we 
forget to mention.

-David
(*) Actually, I've been doing 24 hour recordings w. Len's TetraMic. Just 
finished the summer version. I was using his binaural set in parallel, but it 
mysteriously gave up the ghost. Been meaning to write to him 
The project is: 
http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/index.php/current-projects/34-on-turner-sump
(no sound online yet)


> 
> On 18 February 2013 17:35, Augustine Leudar  wrote:
>> Hi there -
>> I did several large  (about 4 acres) walk through  sound installations in
>> the dome shaped tropical biome at the Eden project in Cornwall . I guess my
>> application would be very different from yours. I designed the sound
>> installation in an adjacent dome first - there were the weirdest
>> reflections ever - for example at certain frequencies the sound pooled and
>> was louder in one tiny patch on the other side of the building than 3 m
>> away from the speaker etc etc. When I got it in the main biome it sounded
>> completely different of course.
>> The only thing I can advise you is not to go in with a set idea of how your
>> going to do it but to try different configurations and see what sounds best
>> once your in there - I know its a pain in the neck but these things usually
>> need to be tuned to acoustic peculiarities that are impossible to predict.
>> Its why I always like to have at elast three days before an event to do
>> this.
>> You can read about some the installations
>> here
>> Hope this helps !
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 18 February 2013 16:47, Neil Waterman  wrote:
>> 
>>> Greetings,
>>> 
>>> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
>>> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
>>> 
>>> Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
>>> 
>>> The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made of
>>> fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
>>> bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
>>> 
>>> All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not full
>>> spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
>>> 
>>> My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
>>> nightmare to put sound into…
>>> 
>>> One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of directional
>>> speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a
>>> virtual speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My concern
>>> with this is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these
>>> dome areas) will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and end-up
>>> with a confused mess.
>>> 
>>> For all of these domes t

Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Ben Bloomberg]

In our case we were unfortunately unable to put subs on the floor or under
the audience (this was not ideal). However, there were several seat-rumble
channels that we were able to use to fake some of the super LF feeling from
below.
Ben


On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 1:43 PM, David Worrall wrote:

> On 19/02/2013, at 4:50 AM, Dave Malham wrote:
>
> > The guys you need to talk to are  Dave Worrall  and Kimmo Vennonen who
> > have one a lot of things in Geodesic domes down in Oz. Dave, at least,
> > was a member of this group- he as a website at
> > http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/
> >
> >
> > Dave
>
> Hi Dave (hope you're family is enjoying your retirement too :-) , All...
> I'm still a member of this group - not much time ATM so just mostly
> lurking these days :-(  (*)
>
> To hone Dave's reference:
> http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/index.php/polymedia-event-theatres
> + I'm in the design phase of a new one:
>
> http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/index.php/polymedia-event-theatres/pet-3-dome-cluster
>
> 2 thoughts:
> 1. Comments by Ben and Augustine are excellent. The height 'cluister' that
> Ben mentions
> > What I noticed was the ambisonic material felt very "high" compared to
> > other spaces. It would have been nice to have speakers below the dome,
> > especially subs to pull the image downward a bit by having sources below
> > the audience as well as above.
>
> is a known phenomena/problem. I guess it is related to whether you're
> playing recorder or synthesised material.
>  If the latter, which was mostly our case, when loudspeakers are evenly
> placed on the surface of the hemisphere, then the speakers overhead seem to
> be too close together i.e cluster. This together w. the known
> coherence-death-zone (the centre of the spheroid), was somewhat overcome by
> eliminating the loudspeaker at the very top of the dome.
>
> I concur that low-placed subs - even under the audience if possible, help
> to ground the sound. I couldn't work out from Ben's post whether his only
> subs were "at the top splayed out pointing in 360 degrees". If so, that
> would seem to be counter to one's sense of most low sounds being 'near the
> ground' ( low frequencies are heard more through the feet that the top of
> the head).
>
> 2. The reflective nature of the surface-to-surface and surface-to-floor
> couplings are critical. We used large projection screens and mounted
> acoustically absorbent material on the back of them to reduce the
> dome-as-resonator effect.
>
> Hope this helps. Some photos might be useful, as they often reveal things
> we forget to mention.
>
> -David
> (*) Actually, I've been doing 24 hour recordings w. Len's TetraMic. Just
> finished the summer version. I was using his binaural set in parallel, but
> it mysteriously gave up the ghost. Been meaning to write to him
> The project is:
> http://www.avatar.com.au/worrall/index.php/current-projects/34-on-turner-sump
> (no sound online yet)
>
>
> >
> > On 18 February 2013 17:35, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> >> Hi there -
> >> I did several large  (about 4 acres) walk through  sound installations
> in
> >> the dome shaped tropical biome at the Eden project in Cornwall . I
> guess my
> >> application would be very different from yours. I designed the sound
> >> installation in an adjacent dome first - there were the weirdest
> >> reflections ever - for example at certain frequencies the sound pooled
> and
> >> was louder in one tiny patch on the other side of the building than 3 m
> >> away from the speaker etc etc. When I got it in the main biome it
> sounded
> >> completely different of course.
> >> The only thing I can advise you is not to go in with a set idea of how
> your
> >> going to do it but to try different configurations and see what sounds
> best
> >> once your in there - I know its a pain in the neck but these things
> usually
> >> need to be tuned to acoustic peculiarities that are impossible to
> predict.
> >> Its why I always like to have at elast three days before an event to do
> >> this.
> >> You can read about some the installations
> >> here<
> http://web.archive.org/web/20110719132826/http://www.edenproject.com/come-and-visit/whats-on/heart-of-darkness.php
> >
> >> Hope this helps !
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 18 February 2013 16:47, Neil Waterman 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Greetings,
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> >>> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
> >>>
> >>> Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
> >>>
> >>> The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome
> made of
> >>> fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
> >>> bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
> >>>
> >>> All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not
> full
> >>> spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
> >>>
> >>> My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
> >>> 

Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Peter Lennox]

Just a quick one:

It seems to me that a dome could be interesting used as a kind of wavefield 
synthesis device.

Domes have the interesting property of focussing sound at a point that is 
opposite the source, as it were. So you can create a 'holosonic' point source 
right next to someone's ear

Dr. Peter Lennox

School of Technology,
Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
t: 01332 593155


-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On 
Behalf Of Neil Waterman
Sent: 18 February 2013 16:47
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

Greetings,

Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D sound 
into 'dome' shaped replay environments? 

Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc. 

The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made of 
fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much bigger 
40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass. 

All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not full 
spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.

My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a 
nightmare to put sound into...

One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of directional 
speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a virtual 
speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My concern with this 
is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these dome areas) 
will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and end-up with a confused 
mess. 

For all of these domes there will be an 18" skirt area below the dome that 
could be used for loudspeakers around the periphery - is it better to try to 
beam the sound directly at the listeners position, or perhaps use a more 
diffuse speaker, facing up into the dome face? There will be space to get at 
least one speaker overhead for all configurations.

Regards, Neil

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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Augustine Leudar]

You need LOTS of very closely aligned speakers and the software will take a
while to install/learn, then rendering the  channels also takes time if you
do it that way. The "holosonic" point source next to the ear is my holy
grail - I havent got it yet -  but I am told IRcams system can do this. I
have heard stories of weird phase effects next to the ear in other systems,
and have got that working - but thats not quite the same. The truth is you
could probably get something more spectacular going with quarter the amount
of speakers and Vbap.

On 19 February 2013 11:39, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Just a quick one:
>
> It seems to me that a dome could be interesting used as a kind of
> wavefield synthesis device.
>
> Domes have the interesting property of focussing sound at a point that is
> opposite the source, as it were. So you can create a 'holosonic' point
> source right next to someone's ear
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox
>
> School of Technology,
> Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
> University of Derby, UK
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
> On Behalf Of Neil Waterman
> Sent: 18 February 2013 16:47
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?
>
> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
>
> Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
>
> The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made of
> fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
> bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
>
> All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not full
> spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
>
> My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
> nightmare to put sound into...
>
> One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of directional
> speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a
> virtual speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My concern
> with this is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these
> dome areas) will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and end-up
> with a confused mess.
>
> For all of these domes there will be an 18" skirt area below the dome that
> could be used for loudspeakers around the periphery - is it better to try
> to beam the sound directly at the listeners position, or perhaps use a more
> diffuse speaker, facing up into the dome face? There will be space to get
> at least one speaker overhead for all configurations.
>
> Regards, Neil
>
> ___
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>
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> The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was
> sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email.
> Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk.
> ___
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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Peter Lennox]

I was talking about a whole lot cruder approach - not actually rendering into 
WFS - let the dome physically do that. Position a sound at point A, get an 
image at point B. for more image-locations, use more speakers, to move the 
image, pan from one to t'other, and live with the slight imprecision during 
movement. 

Oh, the point was, especially at HF, - point the speaker at the dome, let the 
dome do the rest... ;)
 - cheap to try out

Dr. Peter Lennox

School of Technology,
Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
t: 01332 593155


-Original Message-
From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On 
Behalf Of Augustine Leudar
Sent: 19 February 2013 11:50
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

You need LOTS of very closely aligned speakers and the software will take a 
while to install/learn, then rendering the  channels also takes time if you do 
it that way. The "holosonic" point source next to the ear is my holy grail - I 
havent got it yet -  but I am told IRcams system can do this. I have heard 
stories of weird phase effects next to the ear in other systems, and have got 
that working - but thats not quite the same. The truth is you could probably 
get something more spectacular going with quarter the amount of speakers and 
Vbap.

On 19 February 2013 11:39, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Just a quick one:
>
> It seems to me that a dome could be interesting used as a kind of 
> wavefield synthesis device.
>
> Domes have the interesting property of focussing sound at a point that 
> is opposite the source, as it were. So you can create a 'holosonic' 
> point source right next to someone's ear
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox
>
> School of Technology,
> Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
> On Behalf Of Neil Waterman
> Sent: 18 February 2013 16:47
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?
>
> Greetings,
>
> Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
>
> Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
>
> The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made of
> fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
> bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
>
> All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not full
> spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
>
> My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
> nightmare to put sound into...
>
> One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of directional
> speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a
> virtual speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My concern
> with this is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these
> dome areas) will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and end-up
> with a confused mess.
>
> For all of these domes there will be an 18" skirt area below the dome that
> could be used for loudspeakers around the periphery - is it better to try
> to beam the sound directly at the listeners position, or perhaps use a more
> diffuse speaker, facing up into the dome face? There will be space to get
> at least one speaker overhead for all configurations.
>
> Regards, Neil
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>
> _
> The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was
> sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email.
> Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk.
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
>



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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[umashankar manthravadi]

i think it will work - have heard enough phantom sources in archaeological 
sites - but ideally your dome should be a hemisphere - that is when you will 
get precise reflected points.  umashankar

i have published my poems. read (or buy) at http://stores.lulu.com/umashankar
 > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 11:50:04 +
> From: augustineleu...@gmail.com
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?
> 
> You need LOTS of very closely aligned speakers and the software will take a
> while to install/learn, then rendering the  channels also takes time if you
> do it that way. The "holosonic" point source next to the ear is my holy
> grail - I havent got it yet -  but I am told IRcams system can do this. I
> have heard stories of weird phase effects next to the ear in other systems,
> and have got that working - but thats not quite the same. The truth is you
> could probably get something more spectacular going with quarter the amount
> of speakers and Vbap.
> 
> On 19 February 2013 11:39, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> 
> > Just a quick one:
> >
> > It seems to me that a dome could be interesting used as a kind of
> > wavefield synthesis device.
> >
> > Domes have the interesting property of focussing sound at a point that is
> > opposite the source, as it were. So you can create a 'holosonic' point
> > source right next to someone's ear
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox
> >
> > School of Technology,
> > Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
> > University of Derby, UK
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Neil Waterman
> > Sent: 18 February 2013 16:47
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group
> > Subject: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> > sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
> >
> > Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
> >
> > The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made of
> > fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
> > bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
> >
> > All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not full
> > spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
> >
> > My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
> > nightmare to put sound into...
> >
> > One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of directional
> > speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a
> > virtual speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My concern
> > with this is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these
> > dome areas) will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and end-up
> > with a confused mess.
> >
> > For all of these domes there will be an 18" skirt area below the dome that
> > could be used for loudspeakers around the periphery - is it better to try
> > to beam the sound directly at the listeners position, or perhaps use a more
> > diffuse speaker, facing up into the dome face? There will be space to get
> > at least one speaker overhead for all configurations.
> >
> > Regards, Neil
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> >
> > _
> > The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and
> > reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was
> > sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email.
> > Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk.
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> >
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> augustine.leudar.com
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Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?

[Augustine Leudar]

Yeah - I would definately agree with that. You will find the dome has some
freakish totally unepected reflective properties pooling the sound in odd
places which 100 years of research would struggle to emulate artificially.
The trick is to find these weird spots and then take advantage of them -
all the while pretending that you had it planned from the beginning ;)

On 19 February 2013 12:06, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> I was talking about a whole lot cruder approach - not actually rendering
> into WFS - let the dome physically do that. Position a sound at point A,
> get an image at point B. for more image-locations, use more speakers, to
> move the image, pan from one to t'other, and live with the slight
> imprecision during movement.
>
> Oh, the point was, especially at HF, - point the speaker at the dome, let
> the dome do the rest... ;)
>  - cheap to try out
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox
>
> School of Technology,
> Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology
> University of Derby, UK
> e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> t: 01332 593155
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
> On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar
> Sent: 19 February 2013 11:50
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?
>
> You need LOTS of very closely aligned speakers and the software will take
> a while to install/learn, then rendering the  channels also takes time if
> you do it that way. The "holosonic" point source next to the ear is my holy
> grail - I havent got it yet -  but I am told IRcams system can do this. I
> have heard stories of weird phase effects next to the ear in other systems,
> and have got that working - but thats not quite the same. The truth is you
> could probably get something more spectacular going with quarter the amount
> of speakers and Vbap.
>
> On 19 February 2013 11:39, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> > Just a quick one:
> >
> > It seems to me that a dome could be interesting used as a kind of
> > wavefield synthesis device.
> >
> > Domes have the interesting property of focussing sound at a point that
> > is opposite the source, as it were. So you can create a 'holosonic'
> > point source right next to someone's ear
> >
> > Dr. Peter Lennox
> >
> > School of Technology,
> > Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK
> > e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk
> > t: 01332 593155
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:
> sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]
> > On Behalf Of Neil Waterman
> > Sent: 18 February 2013 16:47
> > To: Surround Sound discussion group
> > Subject: [Sursound] Any experience with dome acoustics?
> >
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Does anyone on the list have prior experience installing ambi-based 3D
> > sound into 'dome' shaped replay environments?
> >
> > Any tips, specifically on speaker placement, approaches, etc.
> >
> > The problems I am facing include a 12 foot 240 degree partial dome made
> of
> > fabric, an 18 foot 240 degree partial dome using fiberglass and a much
> > bigger 40 foot 360 degree full dome in fiberglass.
> >
> > All of the above will actually be 1/2 domes in the sense they are not
> full
> > spheres, but 1/2 a sphere resting on the ground.
> >
> > My only prior experience was with a full sphere, fibre dome that was a
> > nightmare to put sound into...
> >
> > One option for the 40 foot dome is to use a central cluster of
> directional
> > speakers, hung in a "chandelier" that would use the dome surface as a
> > virtual speaker through reflection, but I have never tried this. My
> concern
> > with this is that the listeners (who will be roughly central in all these
> > dome areas) will hear both the direct sound and reflected sound and
> end-up
> > with a confused mess.
> >
> > For all of these domes there will be an 18" skirt area below the dome
> that
> > could be used for loudspeakers around the periphery - is it better to try
> > to beam the sound directly at the listeners position, or perhaps use a
> more
> > diffuse speaker, facing up into the dome face? There will be space to get
> > at least one speaker overhead for all configurations.
> >
> > Regards, Neil
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
> >
> > _