[biofuel] What is "hyson"
This is quoted from the "reverse fuel cell" article posted earlier: "-- dividing hydrogen isotopes to remove deuterium and hyson out of cooling circuits of nuclear reactors" what the heck is "hyson?" Has tritium been renamed? Marc de Piolenc Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Still Plans
>What size pot and what size column would one need to >produce 5 gallons of ethanol per day? It depends on how long you want to spend making that 5 gallons ! eg: my 1380W heating element is well suited to 40 mL/min (0.6 gal/hour), so that would take you about 8.5 hours to run off 5 gallons. However, if you had a 3 kW element, you'd half the time and only take 4+ hours. A 6kW element 2+ hours etc. You can predict the flowrate from the calculator at http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller/dtw.htm#use_fract Note that you'll want a reflux ratio of around 2-5. If you make the column taller, or use better packing, then the reflux ratio can be less. Each time you double the heat input, you need to double the cross-sectional area of the column. Note though that this doesn't mean doubling the diameter.. cos it gets squared.. so if a 1.5 inch column is fine at 1380W then at 3kW you'd be looking at around 2-2.5 inch diameter (minimum) and, the 3+ inch diameter (mimimum) for a 6kW setup. I have an interactive design calculator at http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller/reflux_calc.htm which does this for you. The sizes it predicts are sorta on the little side - it would pay to beef up any predictions a tad just to be safe (it won't cost any more) The size of the pot is basically irrelevant. It doesn't change the performance of the column greatly. So ... if you wanted to do all 5 gallons in one hit, and assuming your mash is around 10% alcohol, then you're looking at a 50 gallon pot. Fairly big huh ? How about a 25 gallon one you fill twice, or a 10 gallon one you fill 5 times ... etc. the choice is yours. The advantage of doing a bigger volume is that once its up and running there's less messing around - eg you only need to fine tune the column once, and then watch & adjust as it goes, rather than 5 times say ... In your pot, you also want to allow a bit of headroom - for foaming, etc. Leave about 1/4 to 1/3 of it spare. This is where anything you can do to increase the % during fermentation can be an advantage, eg a 20% mash would only take up half as much room, but a 5% mash will be 100 gallons ! A big pot (50 gallons) will take a long time to get up to distilling temperature. You may want to consider using additional heating to get it up to temperature. This is where you can get to thinking about making a more continuous set-up. Then the pot doesn't need to be so large (only a couple of litres/quarts ?), and all you'll need is say another meter or so of column to act as a stripping/analysing section below the feed point (haven't done it myself, but have a few ideas). The height of the column, its type of packing, and the amount/ratio of reflux that you use will determine the purity that you achieve. (Notice that heat input and pot size don't factor). Using a high-surface area packing such as stainless steel scrubbers will let you get about 93-95% purity with a 1m column. To get the same, using say marbles or glass pieces or raschig rings, you'll need a taller column - say 1.5m+ This is all explained at http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller/refluxdesign.htm Have a good look through the pages at http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller/ , then please do ask any more questions. I don't always have the answers, but there is generally someone in the "Distillers" newsgroup at YahooGroups who has "been-there, done that" and can offer some advice. Tony Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Reverse Fuel Cell
http://biz.yahoo.com/ccn/010522/gqjutaajys8m_hj_wmx23q.html Tuesday May 22, 1:30 pm Eastern Time Press Release Greenvolt Power's Unique Reverse Fuel Cell Makes Hydrogen on the Spot-Fits in with Bush-Cheney Energy Plan ORILLIA, ONTARIO-- Refcell(TM) uses less energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen from water and alleviates need for costly, inefficient transport of hydrogen gas Greenvolt Power Corp (OTCBB:GVLT - news), a development stage company specializing in alternative energy sources, today announced its new Refcell(TM), a reverse fuel cell that can be energized by wind or photovoltaic power sources and is capable of splitting water into its component gasses (hydrogen and oxygen) for multiple, cross-industry needs. Whereas fuel cells catalytically combine hydrogen and oxygen into water to generate electricity, the Refcell(TM) separates the two gasses, essentially releasing them for other purposes. The advent of the Refcell(TM), which can also supply the hydrogen needed to fuel other fuel cells, has cross-industry implications and answers the fuel needs of any company that needs hydrogen and oxygen. The Greenvolt announcement is serendipitous in light of President Bush's recent energy plan, which, though controversial, points to a near-future need for a ``hydrogen economy''. The plan also mentions possible use of hydrogen in furnaces, as well as fuel for all major modes of transport. In addition, the report suggests tax breaks for buyers of fuel cell-powered and hybrid gas-electric vehicles. ``We're very pleased that the Bush government has recognized the value of hydrogen as an ecologically convenient and efficient fuel,'' stated Thomas Faul, President and CEO of Greenvolt Power Corp, whose new Refcell(TM) produces hydrogen from water, the earth's most abundant natural resource, and alleviates the need for costly, inefficient transport of liquid and/or highly compressed hydrogen. Bush's attention to hydrogen, he continued, ``is a great boon to the whole question of reduction of carbon dioxide emissions and we are very encouraged that the government is considering supporting such activities.'' As a result of the energy task force's recommendations, fuel cell companies' stock has shown a sharp rise in the past few days. FuelCell Energy (FCEL:Nasdaq) was up $5.41, or 6.3% to $90.69, while PlugPower (PLUG:Nasdaq) jumped $4.32 or 14.8%, to $33.46. Ballard Power Systems (BLDP:Nasdaq) was up 0.7% to $57.84 while H Power Corp. stock rose $2.32 to $12.97, a 22% increase. How Greenvolt Refcell(TM) Meets Energy Demand Typically, hydrogen and oxygen are electrically separated from water with water-alkali electrolyzer devices. The GVLT Refcell(TM) requires 20% less electrical energy and features a system weight and bulk that is 6 to 9 times smaller than equivalent devices. In addition to considerable energy savings, the explosion-proof Refcell(TM) also boasts long-term durability while lowering generating costs and requiring substantially less in system capital. This is due in part to the fact that water produced in the hydrogen and oxygen-driven fuel cell is re-used by the Refcell(TM), and both gasses can be delivered to storage pressure vessels at 80 to 3000 psi without the need for compressors. The Refcell(TM) is ecologically neutral, uses no alkali or asbestos and requires only distilled water to produce 99.5% pure hydrogen and oxygen. ``After studying a number of hydrogen- and oxygen-producing technologies, we believe we have settled on the best solution,'' stated Faul. ``It is less costly, and it is proven, compact, light, competitively priced -- and it is available now. We now have a simple and immediate 'fuel supply' for our Alkaline Fuel Cells as well as for most other types of fuel cells.'' Commercial Market Applications The Refcell(TM) has broad applicability and can be used to provide a high purity supply of oxygen for: -- laboratory and basic research -- medical and hospital applications -- altitude chambers, space vehicles and submersibles (pre-compressed oxygen) Also useful as a sensor for hydrogen and other gasses, the Refcell(TM) can supply hydrogen for: -- technical uses and scientific research -- production of ceramic components in electronics -- fueling fuel cells -- hydrogen welding and certain types of metallurgical processing -- dividing hydrogen isotopes to remove deuterium and hyson out of cooling circuits of nuclear reactors Additional uses involving simultaneous supply of hydrogen and oxygen include storage of surplus energy generated by PVA (solar panels) and/or wind propeller-driven generators. The Refcell(TM) comes in three different sizes: the Ref-25, which can deliver up to 100 liters/hr. of hydrogen and up to 50 liters/hr. of oxygen; the Ref-500, which will deliver up to 2500 liters/hr. of hydrogen and up to 1250 liters/hr. of oxygen; and the Ref-1700, with delivery capability of up to 100,000 liters/
Re: [biofuel] www.veggiepower.org.uk - latest updates
Hi Simon, Thank you very much for your persistence in building up this very interesting and needed site. I do not know hat kind of formulae you want to apply to your site ? Is it going to be the site that would enable people in Europe to exchange information and to construct their own biodiesel or other biofuels plants or it is to demonstrate that it can be done and show success stories. Is it going to address common barriers to biofuels development etc? I am from Poland and as such we have no specific literature on the subject - at least I do not know of - but I am the newcomer to this. My interest was spurred by the willingness to do business on biodiesel from the rapeseed oil. I can contribute on general conditions for biofuels in Poland - since I have been studying this problem for several weeks by now. There exists limited experience in producing biodiesel from rape seed oil in Poland and on producing bioethanol as well. If this is still interesting for you and if you think it goes in accordance with the formulae of your site I would be happy to contribute something. Please let me know Sincerely yours jan surwka [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ems-energy.pl phone and fax: +48 (32) 331-65-15 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Phenol Red
I think that the phenol red turns at about PH 7 the Phenothaline turns at about PH 8 ( I think)so you would need more NaOH to turn the latter. The Phenol Red may be better to compare oil residue in the BD. If you treat the titration as a comparsion you should be OK. Use it to calculate the amount of catalyst and measure the residual oil in the product. I you want a better yield try more and determine your own factor. ie, titration result mls by x = the amount of NaOH needed. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Burnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > O.K. so my digital PH meter doesn't do a great job of measuring > the endpoint of my titration of the WVO to determine the amount > of lye I need to put in the reaction. > I have taken the advice of others and tried to find Yellow > Phenothaline (sp). I called 12 Pool supply houses today and no one > had heard of YP. All of them said they use Phenol Red to test PH. > Is Phenol Red and YP the same thing? In the pool test kit I bought > at WalMart today there is a bottle of Phenol Red, so I mix up the > alcohol/oil mix add 10 drops of Phenol Red and then slowly add the > Sodium Hydroxide test soln. after 0.7 ml added the soln was a light > Rose color then at 0.8 ml the soln turned a bright purple color. Just > to see what would happen if I added more test soln., the color > didn't change anymore just stayed that bright purple color no matter > how much soln. I added. Is this normal? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Climate Change
>Found Loudermilk can't find the second reference. Loudermilk focuses >on erosion and siltation. Does a good job of promoting soil >conservation. What it demonstrates to me is Yeah, well. Leaves out the bits he doesn't like, eh? :-) Unlike you. It's a classic work of great renown, I guess it'll maybe withstand your, er, criticisms. Steve's changed the link on the second one, sorry. Don't you know how to backtrack a url? Anyway, here's the new link: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010113topsoilandciv/010113top soil.toc.html TOPSOIL AND CIVILIZATION: Table of Contents Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: We don't need no stinking efficiency!!!! (?)
I reread the Food first stuff and found the same as before:
World hunger is like a beggar looking in the window of a restruant or
Macdonalds. I agree that we need to do something about that. Indeed I
would like that to be my focus.
There is nothing to suggest that slowing the rate of increase in
productive capacity will help the poor. Indeed my point is that
finding ways of closing the economic gap has a higher priority than
many "green" issues if we are to achieve ecological sustainability.
OK concurrent will do. We should be able to feed the world without
damageing tnhe environment if we work on inequallity. I just don't
see that as part of the agenda of the Australian environment movement
and that worries me. Is it really so extreme to say that if we fail
to adress inequallity the rest of our efforts are wasted??
How different sustainable agriculture is to the past and present
systems is important and as it affects employment patterns relevant
to social equity. Modern farming technologies are not necessarily bad
if combined with the proven soilbuiding techniques. Low returns are
another matter, it takes capital in money or time to protect the
soil. Higher prices are not the answer if the urban poor can afford
less. I don't mind if you use horses, I like horses. Water buffalow
are probably nice people too. (No I don't want one).
Regards Harry.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I hear the arguments, but where they lack a logical build up that
can
> be followed I treat them as opinion.
> You write as if the green revolution didn't deliver any food to
people
> (individuals) who were hungry or who would have otherwise died of
> starvation related disease. The world population has increased by
> billions, somebody must be surviving. I agree that the increases
have
> made a bad situation worse in the long run. There are more people
> starving now than before possibly even a greater proportion. It
seems
> reasonable to blame that on the survival of children who would
> otherwise have died. Does this mean that it was wrong to feed them?
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > "Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > >My wife is studying for a master in Sustainable Agriculture, I'm
a
> little
> > >selective in what I read on the subject and so we often argue
> about such
> > >matters.
> > >I tutor OS students in critical reading (many are trained to
> believe
> > >everything that they read and suffer real trauma when presented
> with varying
> > >opinions in a lit. review) so I discard papers that do not have
a
> stand
> > >alone logical development that fits the pattern I use for
students.
> > >(I wouldn't read much of my own ravings)
> >
> > Are you sure that's why you don't read things? I'm very sceptical.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Do you seriously believe that alternative agriculture can match
the
> > >production of the industrialised systems and then increase
> production to
> > >meet increasing global demand? ( I allow the same level of
subsidy
> that you
> > >demonstrate for the Brits).
> >
> > No need for subsidies. I think I gave you these before, but maybe
> > they didn't stand up to your critical reading criteria:
> >
> > One 15-year study found that organic farming is not only kinder
to
> > the environment than "conventional", intensive agriculture but
has
> > comparable yields of both products and profits. The study showed
> that
> > yields of organic maize are identical to yields of maize grown
with
> > fertilisers and pesticides, while soil quality in the organic
> fields
> > dramatically improves. (Drinkwater, L.E., Wagoner, P. &
> Sarrantonio,
> > M. Legume-based cropping systems have reduced carbon and nitrogen
> > losses. Nature 396, 262-265.)
> >
> > A Rodale study found that organic farm yields equal factory farm
> > yields after four years using organic techniques.
> >
> > "In the USA, for example, the top quarter sustainable agriculture
> > farmers now have higher yields than conventional farmers, as well
> as
> > a much lower negative impact on the environment," says Jules
> Pretty,
> > Director of the Centre for Environment and Society at the
> University
> > of Essex ("Feeding the world?", SPLICE, August/September 1998,
> Volume
> > 4 Issue 6).
> > http://members.tripod.com/~ngin/article2.htm
> >
> > "The truth, so effectively suppressed that it is now almost
> > impossible to believe, is that organic farming is the key to
> feeding
> > the world." -- The Guardian, August 24, 2000
> >
>
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4054683,00.h
> tml
> >
> > "Organic farming can 'feed the world'" -- BBC Science, September
> 14, 1999
> > http://www.purefood.org/Organic/orgfeedworld.cfm
> >
> > "Feeding the world?" Quietly, slowly and very significantly,
> > sustainable agriculture is sweeping the farming systems of the
[biofuel] Re: Climate Change
Found Loudermilk can't find the second reference. Loudermilk focuses on erosion and siltation. Does a good job of promoting soil conservation. What it demonstrates to me is that since we can now cultivate the heavy volcanics we should leave the light soils alone. Sure he discounts climate change but not convincingly, not that that was his purpose. Since each author tends to leave out the evidence that is irrelevent or nonsupportive of his argument, it may be fair to say that a number of factors have affected sustainability over the millenia. One wonders what the landscapes would look like if they had not been farmed at all? Hills do tend to erode and alluviual valleys form. Rivers shift from their bed in one extraordinary flood, completely reforming the plain in between. One thing is certain; the climate will probably change and for some people and places this will be a bad thing. In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > >Indeed the failure of > >ancient agricultural systems that persisted up to a thousand years > >appears to be linked to natural? climate change. Check out the little > >ice age for example. > > http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010119lowdermilk.usda/cls.html > Lowdermilk: Conquest of the Land through Seven Thousand Years > > http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010113topsoilandciv/010113topsoil .toc.html > TOPSOIL AND CIVILIZATION: Table of Contents > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] strait vegetable oil?? hows that work??
A diesel engine will run on almost anything that will burn...any type of oil is good, because oil contains more BTUs than gasoline, ethanol, or benzene. Some industrial diesels run on coal dust, or bunker c, a waste oil so thick and slimy, that it must be heated in order to make it flow. Rule of thumb is, the thicker, the better. This does not work so well in the automotive world, as there are temperature extremes, notably cold, to deal with. All oil pours more slowly when cold, and many, if not most types, start to congeal as they get colder. A problem with diesel fuel is that the paraffin, a type of wax contained in the fuel, starts to settle out of the fuel mix. It coats the outside of the fuel filters, stopping the flow of fuel. Ask any trucker-most have had stoppages from "gelling" as it is called. Often, the fuel has a milky appearance, as the eye can see the paraffin flakes in the fuel. I do not know if biodiesel, or SVO will do this, but I assume that it will. The solution is to heat the fuel-that is why many truckers leave their engines running during non-driving time. There are a number of additives on the market to lower the "cloud point" as it is called, of diesel fuel. I don't know if these will have any effect on biodiesel. BTW, many years ago, when the VW Rabbit diesel was very popular, there were a number of engines that blew up, because they would run on their own engine oil, blown into the air intake by the crankcase breather. The owners' response was usually to step on the clutch, as releasing the accelerator, and turning off the ignition had no effect on slowing the car. It was literally running at full throttle. When the load was removed from the engine, it over-revved, and blew up. On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:12:37 -0700 (PDT) eric almanzan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: how is it that a car can run on straight vegatable oil?? is there some sort of chemical process that goes on in the tank?? how does it combust? __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor www. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Still plans
Tony, What size pot and what size column would one need to produce 5 gallons of ethanol per day? Ron Miller - Original Message - From: Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:23 PM Subject: [biofuel] Still plans > Martin, > > For still plans I could suggest that you modify a Nixon-Stone still. > http://www.gin-vodka.com > > See the photos section (page 1) at my site, > http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller for a couple of examples/versions > of it. > > To get the purity, you will require a tall, well-packed column, and a good > control over the reflux ratio. This still will do both those things. > > I presently run one for drinking alcohol (its legal here in New Zealand). > However, it is not up to the quantity that you require. With a 1380W heater > in it, I presently take about 93% alcohol at 40 mL/min (0.6 gal/hour). > Higher purity is easily achieved, but at a slower rate. Sounds like you'd be > more in the 2x or 3x version of this (3-4 kW) ? To modify it would be only > a change in the column diameter (say to 2-2.5 inch ?) and a beefed up > condenser. > > It would be a batch still operation, or are you after something more > continuous ? > > Tony > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
US BATF Ethanol Permits was Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
The text after my "signature" is taken directly off a US Dept. of the Treasury, BATF guide sheet for alcohol fuel plants. Alcohol fuel plants generally fall under "small," "medium" and "large." There are other formalities for Specially Denatured Spirits (SDS) users, alcohol fuel producers (small farm "plants," etc.) and other alcohol use variations. Alcohol fuel producers start off with form 5110.74. But, as with all paperwork, getting the form is the simple part. Success in obtaining a permit includes other responsibilities, such as securing storage facilities to prevent unauthorized entry. Depending upon production capacity, this could be construed to include razor wire, security personnel, etc. BATF also secures the right to inspect facilities, records and reports during normal business hours, as well as acquisition of samples of products to ensure compliance with law and regulations. Just in case anyone wishes to know. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] DISTILLED SPIRITS PLANT - INDUSTRIAL INFORMATION This refers to your request for forms and information regarding the establishment of a plant to produce industrial alcohol. In order to establish such a plant, you must comply with all the requirements of Part 19, Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations as follows: 1) Register your plant on Form 5110.41 (see 27 CFR 19.151 and 19.152). 2) Make application on Form 5110.25 for an operating permit (see 19.157 and 19.158). 3) File bond on Form 5110.56 (see Subpart H of Part 19). No photocopies or faxed copies of this form, please! 4) File Form 5000.29, Environmental Information 5) File Form 5000.30, Supplemental Water Quality Considerations. 6) File Form 5000.9, Personnel Questionnaire, for each officer, director and stockholder owning ten percent or more of the voting stock of the corporation. 7) Furnish signature authority for each individual signing documents submitted to this Bureau. Either Form 5000.8, Power of Attorney, or Form 5100.1, Signing Authority for Corporate Officials, may be used for this purpose. However, in lieu of these forms, a resolution by the Board of Directors granting signature authorization may be submitted. 8) File application on Form 5100.16, to receive spirits by transfer in bond (see 19.506). An application is required for each distilled spirits plant transferring spirits. 9) If any trade names are to be used, submit evidence of State registration. .. > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel plant shall first make > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel producer's permit. The > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. The application, in > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional director (compliance). > The description of stills on the approved application constitutes > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. Alcohol fuel > producers' permits are continuing unless automatically terminated > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided in Sec. 19.950, > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September 17, 1999. > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Phenol Red
Whatever happened to Alek Kac's determination that 6 or 6.25 was just about right and as close as it gets...and no titration? Sure saves a lot of bother with unreliable pH readings... Ed B. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] strait vegatable oil?? hows that work??
It combusts spontaneously due to the high compression of the diesel engine, the same way that diesel fuel does. Nothing happens in the tank. Ed B. www.biofuels.ca - Original Message - From: "eric almanzan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 8:12 PM Subject: [biofuel] strait vegatable oil?? hows that work?? > > how is it that a car can run on straight vegatable > oil?? is there some sort of chemical process that goes > on in the tank?? how does it combust? > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] strait vegatable oil?? hows that work??
how is it that a car can run on straight vegatable oil?? is there some sort of chemical process that goes on in the tank?? how does it combust? __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
Steve, Does the federal permit over rule the state regulations. They (B.A.T.F.) told me to check with my state beverage control board about state laws. My state (Alabama) has stricter regulations than the Feds and they also charge an annual fee of $100.00. They have a statement in the state code that says it must be a "continueous". What might this mean? Ron Miller - Original Message - From: steve spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > the exemption is that for on site use, the fuel does not have to be > denatured. reporting is less stringent as well. > > > Steve Spence > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm > > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com > Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm > X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax > We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, > we borrow it from our children. > -- > > - Original Message - > From: "cpech" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:13 PM > Subject: Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > > > > I believe there is an exemption for less than 10,000 gallons per year. If > > that applies to you, you might want to take advantage of it. > > > > Craig > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:43 PM > > Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > > > > > > > >Martin: > > > > > > > >Check out > > > > > > > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > > > > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > > > > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > > > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel plant shall first make > > > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel producer's permit. The > > > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. The application, in > > > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional director (compliance). > > > The description of stills on the approved application constitutes > > > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. Alcohol fuel > > > producers' permits are continuing unless automatically terminated > > > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided in Sec. 19.950, > > > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > > > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 > > > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September 17, 1999. > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
I've been to the ATF page a dozen times and I don't see form 5110.74 if that's what I need :) Well the still will be located on commercial/industrial land afaik, if not then I suppose I won't be too legal.. the police aren't that nosy around here. But being legal is the way to get ahead without the risk of causing trouble for yourself. Red tape isn't a problem. As long as there aren't ridiculous limitations I'll be fine.. and I'll be glad to let everyone know how my experiment goes. -Martin Klingensmith --- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Martin: > > Check out > > http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > Please do keep the list informed on your progress, > particularly > in light of your desire to be totally legal. I > understand your > distillation operation cannot be located anywhere on > a residential > property (including yard, garage, shed, etc.) In > addition you will be > required to submit proof that your alcohol is stored > in a properly > secured (i.e., locked and theft-proof) facility, and > you will need to > make regular reports as to the quantity of alcohol > you are distilling > and proof that it is being used for non-beverage > purposes. If it's not > as hard as it appears red-tapewise, others may be > encouraged by > your success. > > >I am planning on starting up a small still [10 > gal/day > >to start] for my own experimental fuel purposes. > Could > >anyone supply me with the form number I need to get > a > >small fuel ethanol distiller's license from the > BATF? > >I will probably start work before I actually get > the > >license but I do intend to be legal with what I do. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
I'm not sure about this but I believe the fine print says "proof gallons" as wine is measured. There is a formula they have. Ron - Original Message - From: cpech <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > I believe there is an exemption for less than 10,000 gallons per year. If > that applies to you, you might want to take advantage of it. > > Craig > > - Original Message - > From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:43 PM > Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > > > > >Martin: > > > > > >Check out > > > > > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel plant shall first make > > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel producer's permit. The > > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. The application, in > > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional director (compliance). > > The description of stills on the approved application constitutes > > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. Alcohol fuel > > producers' permits are continuing unless automatically terminated > > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided in Sec. 19.950, > > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 > > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September 17, 1999. > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Phenol Red
O.K. so my digital PH meter doesn't do a great job of measuring the endpoint of my titration of the WVO to determine the amount of lye I need to put in the reaction. I have taken the advice of others and tried to find Yellow Phenothaline (sp). I called 12 Pool supply houses today and no one had heard of YP. All of them said they use Phenol Red to test PH. Is Phenol Red and YP the same thing? In the pool test kit I bought at WalMart today there is a bottle of Phenol Red, so I mix up the alcohol/oil mix add 10 drops of Phenol Red and then slowly add the Sodium Hydroxide test soln. after 0.7 ml added the soln was a light Rose color then at 0.8 ml the soln turned a bright purple color. Just to see what would happen if I added more test soln., the color didn't change anymore just stayed that bright purple color no matter how much soln. I added. Is this normal? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Still plans
Martin, For still plans I could suggest that you modify a Nixon-Stone still. http://www.gin-vodka.com See the photos section (page 1) at my site, http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_distiller for a couple of examples/versions of it. To get the purity, you will require a tall, well-packed column, and a good control over the reflux ratio. This still will do both those things. I presently run one for drinking alcohol (its legal here in New Zealand). However, it is not up to the quantity that you require. With a 1380W heater in it, I presently take about 93% alcohol at 40 mL/min (0.6 gal/hour). Higher purity is easily achieved, but at a slower rate. Sounds like you'd be more in the 2x or 3x version of this (3-4 kW) ? To modify it would be only a change in the column diameter (say to 2-2.5 inch ?) and a beefed up condenser. It would be a batch still operation, or are you after something more continuous ? Tony Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
Hi Martin, I received my packet not long ago from the B.A.T.F. the form you need is "ATF F %110.74 (2/90). This is an application for a permit NOT A PERMIT. The address is "National revenue Center Room 8002 Federal Office Building 550 Main Street, Cincinnati, Ohio 45202. I will try to find the phone number for you as soon as I can. I believe I left it at work. It also might be a good idea to get with Tony Ackland about the size of your still and the amount you want to produce. Good Luck, Ron Miller - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: [biofuel] Still start-up > I am planning on starting up a small still [10 gal/day > to start] for my own experimental fuel purposes. Could > anyone supply me with the form number I need to get a > small fuel ethanol distiller's license from the BATF? > I will probably start work before I actually get the > license but I do intend to be legal with what I do. > My intentions: > -- > I will be starting a web page soon. > I will provide a complete plan/description of > everything > I will produce enough ethanol to burn a 25% mix in my > car, or convert my fuel system so it can run on at > least 50%, while still being able to run on 100% > gasoline > I will use corn, as it is an agricultural area and > corn is plentiful and inexpensive. > I will burn corn or sawdust or as a last resort > propane or natural gas or coal > -- > My needs: > -- > A definite place to locate the still [60% sure I can > find a place soon] > A BATF permit - a few months and I'll hopefully have > it > A good, working plan of a still that is the right > size. Batches of 50 gallons are the intended volume of > wash. > Of course I always need more money, but I intend to > build the still for as cheap as possible with used > parts. > Perhaps a market for ethanol that I don't use for > personal fuel needs. A friend of mine wants to produce > biodiesel for his vehicles - maybe he will want to try > ethyl ester production instead of methyl ester. > > I talked to an old friend who owns a wood mill, he > said he might let me put it 'out back' > benefits: > cheap electricity [industrial rate] - though I intend > to not need any electricity > easy access [close to home] > free/nominal fee for land usage > free/nominal fee for sawdust/chips [cellulose > conversion for fermentation perhaps] > > Well I'm just rambling in a true sense of the word. > Comments / help / _information_ GREATLY appreciated. > I could use real fuel still plans [190+proof first > pass] > > Thanks > -Martin Klingensmith > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] why must a car be retrofitted to run on biodiesel??
Corrections, SVO becomes more viscous under cold temperatures. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] why must a car be retrofitted to run on biodiesel??
Maybe some of the more experienced guys could give you specific information on congealing. However I have made small batches of quarts gars, and cooled them down to about five degrees Celsius with no congealing problems, however the product was a little cloudy. The only reason that I could guess that the car needed to retrofitted to run BD is if he ran SVO (straight vegetable oil). Unprocessed oils tend to become less viscous under cold temperatures. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] why must a car be retrofitted to run on biodiesel??
no modifications are needed for biodiesel. the heated second tank was for running vegetable oil. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "eric almanzan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 8:54 PM Subject: [biofuel] why must a car be retrofitted to run on biodiesel?? > a week or so ago i remember reading about some guy who > was retrofitting his diesel jetta with some sort of an > intank heater. why is this necessary?? a month or so > ago i asked if biodiesel congealed at lower > temperatures, but i dont remember getting an answer. > If it is true that biodiesel congeals, I can see why > it is necessary to have the intank heater. from an > engineering standpoint, running coolant back to the > fuel tank would place strain on the waterpump. as for > the congealing, if it does happen, does it occur if > the biodiesel is made from un used vegatable oil?? > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Climate Change
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Indeed the failure of >ancient agricultural systems that persisted up to a thousand years >appears to be linked to natural? climate change. Check out the little >ice age for example. http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010119lowdermilk.usda/cls.html Lowdermilk: Conquest of the Land through Seven Thousand Years http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010113topsoilandciv/010113topsoil.toc.html TOPSOIL AND CIVILIZATION: Table of Contents Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] why must a car be retrofitted to run on biodiesel??
a week or so ago i remember reading about some guy who was retrofitting his diesel jetta with some sort of an intank heater. why is this necessary?? a month or so ago i asked if biodiesel congealed at lower temperatures, but i dont remember getting an answer. If it is true that biodiesel congeals, I can see why it is necessary to have the intank heater. from an engineering standpoint, running coolant back to the fuel tank would place strain on the waterpump. as for the congealing, if it does happen, does it occur if the biodiesel is made from un used vegatable oil?? __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
>Thank you >I will have to call the nearest office I suppose, form >5110.74 is not on the web page. >-Martin Klingensmith BATF Alcohol Programs -- FAQs, Information, Permits, Regulations: http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/index.htm Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >--- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Martin: > > > > > >Check out > > > > > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel > > plant shall first make > > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel > > producer's permit. The > > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. > > The application, in > > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional > > director (compliance). > > The description of stills on the approved > > application constitutes > > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. > > Alcohol fuel > > producers' permits are continuing unless > > automatically terminated > > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided > > in Sec. 19.950, > > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. > > 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, > > 94 Stat. 278 > > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September > > 17, 1999. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: We don't need no stinking efficiency!!!! (?)
I hear the arguments, but where they lack a logical build up that can
be followed I treat them as opinion.
You write as if the green revolution didn't deliver any food to people
(individuals) who were hungry or who would have otherwise died of
starvation related disease. The world population has increased by
billions, somebody must be surviving. I agree that the increases have
made a bad situation worse in the long run. There are more people
starving now than before possibly even a greater proportion. It seems
reasonable to blame that on the survival of children who would
otherwise have died. Does this mean that it was wrong to feed them?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> >My wife is studying for a master in Sustainable Agriculture, I'm a
little
> >selective in what I read on the subject and so we often argue
about such
> >matters.
> >I tutor OS students in critical reading (many are trained to
believe
> >everything that they read and suffer real trauma when presented
with varying
> >opinions in a lit. review) so I discard papers that do not have a
stand
> >alone logical development that fits the pattern I use for students.
> >(I wouldn't read much of my own ravings)
>
> Are you sure that's why you don't read things? I'm very sceptical.
>
>
>
> >Do you seriously believe that alternative agriculture can match the
> >production of the industrialised systems and then increase
production to
> >meet increasing global demand? ( I allow the same level of subsidy
that you
> >demonstrate for the Brits).
>
> No need for subsidies. I think I gave you these before, but maybe
> they didn't stand up to your critical reading criteria:
>
> One 15-year study found that organic farming is not only kinder to
> the environment than "conventional", intensive agriculture but has
> comparable yields of both products and profits. The study showed
that
> yields of organic maize are identical to yields of maize grown with
> fertilisers and pesticides, while soil quality in the organic
fields
> dramatically improves. (Drinkwater, L.E., Wagoner, P. &
Sarrantonio,
> M. Legume-based cropping systems have reduced carbon and nitrogen
> losses. Nature 396, 262-265.)
>
> A Rodale study found that organic farm yields equal factory farm
> yields after four years using organic techniques.
>
> "In the USA, for example, the top quarter sustainable agriculture
> farmers now have higher yields than conventional farmers, as well
as
> a much lower negative impact on the environment," says Jules
Pretty,
> Director of the Centre for Environment and Society at the
University
> of Essex ("Feeding the world?", SPLICE, August/September 1998,
Volume
> 4 Issue 6).
> http://members.tripod.com/~ngin/article2.htm
>
> "The truth, so effectively suppressed that it is now almost
> impossible to believe, is that organic farming is the key to
feeding
> the world." -- The Guardian, August 24, 2000
>
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4054683,00.h
tml
>
> "Organic farming can 'feed the world'" -- BBC Science, September
14, 1999
> http://www.purefood.org/Organic/orgfeedworld.cfm
>
> "Feeding the world?" Quietly, slowly and very significantly,
> sustainable agriculture is sweeping the farming systems of the
world.
> http://members.tripod.com/~ngin/article2.htm
>
>
>
> >Note that I once held the view that a series of "natural"
population crashes
> >should be allowed to reduce human population to a level from which
we could
> >"rebuild" sustainably. Without the ongoing "green revolution" this
may have
> >happened, but there was always going to be a maximum population
size beyond
> >which the ecological damage associated with population crashes
could be
> >tolerated.
>
> Yeah, well, we've been through all that before, at least once, but
> you take no notice and trundle it all out all over again. That's
why
> I'm not continuing with this any longer beyond this. I'd change
what
> your students wrote: "It's useless arguing with Harry because he
> doesn't hear anything that disagrees with him." Do you seriously
> believe that the Green Revolution helps feed people instead of
> starves them, helps to sustain the environment rather than ruining
> it? Who've you been reading, Normal Borlaug or the World Bank?
>
> You talk of land shortages? - Australia could support the same
> population as China or India. So could the US, or Argentina.
> http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010122king/ffcc.html
> F. H. King: Farmers of Forty Centuries
>
> Keith Addison
> Journey to Forever
> Handmade Projects
> Tokyo
> http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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[biofuel] economy of scale Re: Digest # 491 + ethanol pricing.
I'm not defending them, just making the point that in the struggle to make ends meet, people in developed countries will destroy the resource for short term survival. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >I don't want to get in this loop, far too entertaining, but: In Queensland's > >brigalow (nitrogen fixer)belt Farmers clear, and burn, say 100 acres then > >cultivate wheat for a couple of seasons, often to replace harvesters or > >other capital equipment. After a few seasons the water retention and > >fertility is such that wheat is not viable, then sheep are grazed (if wool > >has any value) or the land left to regenerate. (if it can in an arid > >environment) before it blows away. I would be kind if I said that the > >brigalow grows back and renews the soil for another cycle but the time > >factor is large. > >Can we call it slash and burn when they use D9's? > > Don't have time to be entertaining. > > Your farmers are incompetent - farmers are supposed to be husbandmen, > husbandry means maintenance, mainly soil fertility maintenance, > whereas this is just a mining operation. > > If they knew what they were doing they could have their wheat and > wool and mutton indefinitely, in much larger quantities and better > quality. > > Here are some references - I doubt you check many of the the refs I > provide you with (perhaps it's what you call being "selective"), > since your comebacks mostly still lack the information provided, but > at least the message archives will be complete, if not your > information. > > Elliot, Robert. The Clifton Park System of Farming. London, Faber & > Faber, 1943. > Originally published in 1898 as Agricultural Changes, this book's > thesis was broadened by Sir Albert Howard, Newman Turner, Louis > Bromfield, etc. Elliot developed a system of laying down land to > grass, dependent on little input but a complex mixture of > deep-rooting pasture seeds. The pasture rotations would be broken > after four to eight years, row crops grown until the humus levels > declined to a threatening level, and then the field would be restored > to grass/clover/herbal mixtures. There is a very interesting forward > by Sir R. George Stapledon. Full text online: > http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010128elliot/010128toc.html > > Suitable grassland mixtures for Australian and tropical conditions > have been developed. Here's an Australian system - not as good but it > works: > > Yeomans, P.A. The Keyline Plan. Sydney: P.A. Yeomans, 1954. > After only three years of experimentation with the Keyline system, > Yeomans self-published this, his first of several books. In the > tradition of Louis Bromfield and Plowman's Folly, it is an > eye-opening look at how to help land retain all the rainfall it > recieives, opening the whole soil body to root penetration and > releasing the natural fertility of the land. This book became an > agricultural best seller and sold out. It is still sought after by > collectors. Full text online: > http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010125yeomans/010125toc.html > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
they will refer you to the Ohio office. it's pretty easy to get licensed as a "small fuel producer". Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:27 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > Thank you > I will have to call the nearest office I suppose, form > 5110.74 is not on the web page. > -Martin Klingensmith > > --- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Martin: > > > > > >Check out > > > > > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel > > plant shall first make > > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel > > producer's permit. The > > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. > > The application, in > > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional > > director (compliance). > > The description of stills on the approved > > application constitutes > > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. > > Alcohol fuel > > producers' permits are continuing unless > > automatically terminated > > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided > > in Sec. 19.950, > > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. > > 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, > > 94 Stat. 278 > > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September > > 17, 1999. > > > > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
the exemption is that for on site use, the fuel does not have to be denatured. reporting is less stringent as well. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "cpech" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 6:13 PM Subject: Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > I believe there is an exemption for less than 10,000 gallons per year. If > that applies to you, you might want to take advantage of it. > > Craig > > - Original Message - > From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:43 PM > Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > > > > >Martin: > > > > > >Check out > > > > > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel plant shall first make > > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel producer's permit. The > > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. The application, in > > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional director (compliance). > > The description of stills on the approved application constitutes > > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. Alcohol fuel > > producers' permits are continuing unless automatically terminated > > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided in Sec. 19.950, > > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 > > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September 17, 1999. > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Food vs Biodiesel production
I missed a raft of posts as I changed from direct email to browsing- sorry about that. I agree that there is a positive correlation between increased production and increased marginalisation etc. That it is a causal effect is a large step, I'll debate that point when you present something to debate. Any change in the terms of production change the way money is distributed and accumulated. Australia's landed squatocracy has gone from the wealthy elite to the growing poor as commodity prices have dropped with increased production, our export earnings have increased and the GDP has risen. I suspect that the money ends up with the Multinationals, who are often the actual exporters, and then to their foreign shareholders. Certainly the amount of grain that is fed to stock for the meat eaters must have increased with the reduction in price of grain thereby diverting yet more production to feeding the wealthy. The question remains though- what is the link between increased global production capacity and poverty. Changes in the way the rich get richer and the poor get poorer may have been affected by production changes but not nessesarily caused by them. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >Increases in grain production by breeding, irrigation and fertiliser have > >got us ahead in capacity versus demand for the time being. Further increases > >are subject to diminished return on research dollars, in addition the funds > >for such research, more dams, better rural roads and other regional > >infrastructure are drying up because we are ahead. Oversupply will go away, > >just give it a little time. > > You're just not listening. I can only conclude: "None so deaf..." All > the factors you mention have mostly led not so much to higher > production as to increased marginalisation of rural populations and > to countries becoming "self-sufficient" in grain production - ie net > exporters - while the tally of the hungry goes up and up and up. > > Best wishes > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Climate Change
Interesting title Ray. But is it climate or just weather? Long range weather forcasters have predicted many significant weather events based on observed solar cycles. The variation in solar energy reaching earth is significant and can cause variations in surface temperatures that must have profound effects on our climate. Apart from apparent cycles, I am aware of no reason to assume that the sun does not experience long term changes in the rate of energy realease. Naturally this would lead to climate change. Indeed the failure of ancient agricultural systems that persisted up to a thousand years appears to be linked to natural? climate change. Check out the little ice age for example. This is not to say that changes in the gaseous composition of the earth are not changing climate, or at least the weather. Heavy gases accumulate low in the biosphere, within 1000m according to some satelite data. The immeadiate convection effects that transfer the accumulating heat to areas above the heavy greenhouse gases coupled with an increase in evaporation from the oceans must equate to substantially different weather. The increase in atmospheric dust and cloud would be expected to decrease penetration of solar energy leading to a mitigating cooling effect. The weather events that you refered to require interactions of thousands of meters of atmosphere and lagre temperature variations within that column. But is this climate change or simply weather!! --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Ray Foulk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1382000/1382259 .stm > > > Sixteen people are now known to have died in devastating floods which hit the US states of Texas and Louisiana on Friday and Saturday. Houston, the biggest Texas city has been worst hit. The authorities say at least 15 people have died there. At least one storm-related death was reported in Louisiana. > > Thousands of people in Houston and neighbouring > counties have been forced from their homes. > > President George W Bush > has declared 28 counties of > south-east Texas a disaster > area, and has ordered > federal aid to bolster local > efforts. > > Some estimates put the > flood damage at least > $1bn. > > A spokesman from the > mayor's office said that > those who died had mostly > drowned, including one > woman who died in a > flooded lift shaft in > Houston. > > However, at least two > people died of electrocution > after coming into contact with downed power lines, said > the Texas Department of Public Safety. > > Tropical deluge > > The floods were caused by tropical storm Allison, the > first named storm of the hurricane season, which came > ashore last week. > > A rain gauge in Houston > showed that the storm had > deposited nearly three feet > (one metre) of rain there. > > Emergency officials in the > city used boats and > helicopters to rescue > thousands of residents > trapped by rising waters at > the height of the floods. > > "There are more people out > there on rooftops than we > can possibly even count, > much less help," said a > Coast Guard spokesman, > Rob Wyman. > > Nine of the city's major > hospitals have declared > internal emergencies, many of them affected by power > failures. > > All the main roads into Houston were flooded to some > degree, and many drivers were stranded as their cars > either sank or floated in the flood waters. > > Alligator alert > > In Louisiana, alligators agitated by the storm's thunder > and lightening, wandered into residential areas. > > Officials in two parishes reported capturing 40 alligators > during the week. > > "I'll release them back into the swamps unless they are > big and aggressive," said Richard Roussel IV, an > alligator nuisance control officer for St John Parish. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Climate Change
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1382000/1382259.stm Sixteen people are now known to have died in devastating floods which hit the US states of Texas and Louisiana on Friday and Saturday. Houston, the biggest Texas city has been worst hit. The authorities say at least 15 people have died there. At least one storm-related death was reported in Louisiana. Thousands of people in Houston and neighbouring counties have been forced from their homes. President George W Bush has declared 28 counties of south-east Texas a disaster area, and has ordered federal aid to bolster local efforts. Some estimates put the flood damage at least $1bn. A spokesman from the mayor's office said that those who died had mostly drowned, including one woman who died in a flooded lift shaft in Houston. However, at least two people died of electrocution after coming into contact with downed power lines, said the Texas Department of Public Safety. Tropical deluge The floods were caused by tropical storm Allison, the first named storm of the hurricane season, which came ashore last week. A rain gauge in Houston showed that the storm had deposited nearly three feet (one metre) of rain there. Emergency officials in the city used boats and helicopters to rescue thousands of residents trapped by rising waters at the height of the floods. "There are more people out there on rooftops than we can possibly even count, much less help," said a Coast Guard spokesman, Rob Wyman. Nine of the city's major hospitals have declared internal emergencies, many of them affected by power failures. All the main roads into Houston were flooded to some degree, and many drivers were stranded as their cars either sank or floated in the flood waters. Alligator alert In Louisiana, alligators agitated by the storm's thunder and lightening, wandered into residential areas. Officials in two parishes reported capturing 40 alligators during the week. "I'll release them back into the swamps unless they are big and aggressive," said Richard Roussel IV, an alligator nuisance control officer for St John Parish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] titration ph question
OK. Have to finish my paper "Automotive Alternator as a Windpower Resource" first. Auto alternator will work well if you replace the regulator and place diodes external to unit. I think if people knew how inexpensive bleach etc is they would be annoyed. The container costs more than the product for most household chemicals. -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:09 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] titration ph question "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >evaporate water when all NaCl is converted. >a thin electroplate of platinum on copper is a good all around electrode. >Only a few pennies worth of platinum used. >I think commercially they use graphite or lead-- Nickel also comes to mind. >Chemistry is an interest not a forte. I always look up before I use. See >what your books your local library has on electrochemistry. >Library at nearest university would be best and local library may have >lending arrangement with them. hot melt glue makes a good sealer for copper >fastened to whatever. Hi Kirk Come on, give us a good recipe a chemistry dumbo like me can follow. Lots of folks would be deeply grateful to you. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >-Original Message- >From: Martin Klingensmith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:28 PM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [biofuel] titration ph question > > >So.. use rock salt in a fully saturated DI water >solution and use what for electrodes? I'm thinking you >would end up with a lot of rusty mess, and how do you >extract the NaOH since it will be in the water? >Thanks >I will make it if I can make the process work :) >-Martin Klingensmith > >--- kirk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Salt (NaCl) and electricity yields sodium hydroxide > > (NaOH) and hydrogen and > > chlorine. Chlorine can be reacted with the hydrogen > > to form hydrochloric > > acid (HCl or muriatic acid) which can be sold to > > pool maintenance, plumbers, > > etc or reacted with CaCO3 (limestone or shells) to > > form calcium chloride > > which has uses as a de-icer etc. > > Why buy when it can be made so easily? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.256 / Virus Database: 129 - Release Date: 5/31/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
Thank you I will have to call the nearest office I suppose, form 5110.74 is not on the web page. -Martin Klingensmith --- Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Martin: > > > >Check out > > > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel > plant shall first make > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel > producer's permit. The > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. > The application, in > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional > director (compliance). > The description of stills on the approved > application constitutes > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. > Alcohol fuel > producers' permits are continuing unless > automatically terminated > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided > in Sec. 19.950, > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. > 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, > 94 Stat. 278 > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September > 17, 1999. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
I believe there is an exemption for less than 10,000 gallons per year. If that applies to you, you might want to take advantage of it. Craig - Original Message - From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up > >Martin: > > > >Check out > > > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > > > > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 > > Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. > Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel plant shall first make > application for and obtain an alcohol fuel producer's permit. The > application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. The application, in > duplicate, will be submitted to the regional director (compliance). > The description of stills on the approved application constitutes > registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. Alcohol fuel > producers' permits are continuing unless automatically terminated > under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided in Sec. 19.950, > or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as > amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 > (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September 17, 1999. > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
>Martin: > >Check out > >http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol > BTW, the form you want is 5110.74 Sec. 19.910 Application for permit required. Any person wishing to establish an alcohol fuel plant shall first make application for and obtain an alcohol fuel producer's permit. The application for a permit will be on Form 5110.74. The application, in duplicate, will be submitted to the regional director (compliance). The description of stills on the approved application constitutes registration of stills as required by 27 CFR 196.45. Alcohol fuel producers' permits are continuing unless automatically terminated under Sec. 19.920, suspended or revoked as provided in Sec. 19.950, or voluntarily surrendered. (Sec. 201, Pub. L. 85-859, 72 Stat. 1355, as amended (26 U.S.C. 5179); Sec. 232, Pub. L. 96-223, 94 Stat. 278 (26 U.S.C. 5181)) This was last updated on September 17, 1999. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Still start-up
Martin: Check out http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#alcohol Please do keep the list informed on your progress, particularly in light of your desire to be totally legal. I understand your distillation operation cannot be located anywhere on a residential property (including yard, garage, shed, etc.) In addition you will be required to submit proof that your alcohol is stored in a properly secured (i.e., locked and theft-proof) facility, and you will need to make regular reports as to the quantity of alcohol you are distilling and proof that it is being used for non-beverage purposes. If it's not as hard as it appears red-tapewise, others may be encouraged by your success. >I am planning on starting up a small still [10 gal/day >to start] for my own experimental fuel purposes. Could >anyone supply me with the form number I need to get a >small fuel ethanol distiller's license from the BATF? >I will probably start work before I actually get the >license but I do intend to be legal with what I do. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Still start-up
I am planning on starting up a small still [10 gal/day to start] for my own experimental fuel purposes. Could anyone supply me with the form number I need to get a small fuel ethanol distiller's license from the BATF? I will probably start work before I actually get the license but I do intend to be legal with what I do. My intentions: -- I will be starting a web page soon. I will provide a complete plan/description of everything I will produce enough ethanol to burn a 25% mix in my car, or convert my fuel system so it can run on at least 50%, while still being able to run on 100% gasoline I will use corn, as it is an agricultural area and corn is plentiful and inexpensive. I will burn corn or sawdust or as a last resort propane or natural gas or coal -- My needs: -- A definite place to locate the still [60% sure I can find a place soon] A BATF permit - a few months and I'll hopefully have it A good, working plan of a still that is the right size. Batches of 50 gallons are the intended volume of wash. Of course I always need more money, but I intend to build the still for as cheap as possible with used parts. Perhaps a market for ethanol that I don't use for personal fuel needs. A friend of mine wants to produce biodiesel for his vehicles - maybe he will want to try ethyl ester production instead of methyl ester. I talked to an old friend who owns a wood mill, he said he might let me put it 'out back' benefits: cheap electricity [industrial rate] - though I intend to not need any electricity easy access [close to home] free/nominal fee for land usage free/nominal fee for sawdust/chips [cellulose conversion for fermentation perhaps] Well I'm just rambling in a true sense of the word. Comments / help / _information_ GREATLY appreciated. I could use real fuel still plans [190+proof first pass] Thanks -Martin Klingensmith __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Dr Mandela v Bush Administration
Pre-press release 11/06/01 DR MANDELA TAKES ON USA AS GEORGE W BUSH FLIES IN THE OXFORD UNION, WEDNESDAY JUNE 13th 8.00pm. America's position on climate change will be condemned by South Africa's Dr Maki Mandela (daughter of former South African president Nelson Mandela) at The Oxford Union on Wednesday evening, just as President Bush attempts to placate Europe over global warming. The motion being proposed by Dr Mandela is This House Condemns America's Neglect of Climate Change (as justice and efficacy demand that rich countries cut emissions before the developing world joins in). The debate is taking place in response to America's recent decision to withdraw from the Kyoto accord. President Bush states that the Developing World must do more to combat climate change: his priority is ensuring the US economy doesn't suffer. Dr Mandela insists that climate change will affect the Developing World more than American businessmen, and that this should be the priority. With excellent timing, US President George W Bush will also be in Britain this week en route to Sweden, where he will be speaking at the EU summit on Thursday 14th June, at which he will address the issue of climate change. Speaking on Dr Mandela's side proposing the motion will be Zac Goldsmith, Editor of The Ecologist. Defending the US position will be Philip Stott, Professor of Biogeography at the University of London, and David G Victor from the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. Notes for Editors 1. This is Dr Mandela's only UK engagement. She will be available for a limited number of media interviews during her visit. 2. This event is a joint initiative between, Oxford based charity, The Millennium Debate, Elsevier Publisher's REFOCUS Magazine (Renewable Energy Focus) and ISES (International Solar Energy Society) are co-organising the public debate at the Oxford Union. 3. Special arrangement have been made for non-members to attend on this occasion. Tel 01865 552463 for more information. 4. Dr Mandela is Executive Director of the Development Bank of Southern Africa, and an active participant of ISES (International Solar Energy Society). -- TEL: RAY FOULK or CLAIRE PALMER (MILLENNIUM DEBATE) +44 (0) 1865 552463, or MOBILE: 07775 698 549 Fax: +44 (0) 1865 310773 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (www.millennium-debate.org) The Oxford Union, Frewin Hall, St Michael's St, (off Cornmarket St - central Oxford) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] SUVs in the News
SUVs in the News Despite extensive coverage of the Ford Explorer/Firestone Tire fiasco, a substantial amount of recent news coverage about SUVs has focused on hybrid electric vehicles and the issue of fuel efficiency. Meanwhile, news coverage of hybrid electric vehicles in general is on the rise. Read the EMS media analysis at http://www.ems.org/energy_policy/suv_media_analysis.html. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] economy of scale
From Dick Carlstein: >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: rethinking economy of scale...Digest Number 491 > >*i knew it, i knew it !!! No big prediction, that, Dick. >should learn to keep my mouth shut... ah, well, >the harm is now done, so i guess i'll just have to add some more of my >biogas to the fire...(:-D) > >I'm afraid you paint with far too broad a brush, very sweeping >generalisations - true, but very far from the only thing that's true. >There are far more than a billion subsistence farms, and the variety >of circumstance is immense - do you really think you cover them all >with what you've said? > >*keith, a broad subject usually requires a broad brush, if only for a first >approximation. It wasn't even that, it was plain wrong. As the Irishman said when a motorist asked him for directions to Dublin: "You can't start from here." Anyway, you're being slightly less sweeping this time, but there's still a long way to go. Needs work. Mainly you're still applying cash-economy criteria to a situation they just don't fit. Attempts to make them fit have done a lot of damage. "... income increase", "...capital acumulation"... Naah. >my comments are meant to cover those subsistence farmers who >might be left out of a hypothetical mechanization scenario, either as >individuals, or as a group. thus the one billion figure. and i accept that >it's an approximation, as i'm sure you will also grant that there is no >'universal' data on this, given the varied parameters used to define small >farming operations. > >*so i'm only talking small farmers that stand little chance of someday >making use of ic energy. these are the rock bottom folks in the pyramid, >and will remain there for as long as they continue to farm as they presently >do. Their problems start when people stop them doing that and impose western (ie "modern" industrialised) methods on them, for western reasons, which is what you're proposing. >*and while this happens, their surplus population will continue to flow >into the cities, compounding the problem. It is not their farming techniques that cause this. > >A couple of things to add. Biodiesel may or may not be feasible at the > >individual small-peasant level > > >*or necessary, i might add... bullocks, mules, and such are known to have > >little use for biodiesel, being programmed to run better on biomass. > >Indeed they do, and produce useful amounts of improved biomass in >return. That's one option. There are many good projects dealing with >this - animal traction, animal breeding, cart design, local road >improvement, and of course biogas, and more. > >*very true. but the magnitude of income increase gained from these improved >inputs is not enough to generate capital accumulation. > >*also, these improved methods of 'traditional' farming do not translate into >greater market demand, which strongly affects capital accumulation. 'flat' >or stagnant markets always translate into 'flat' or stagnant economic >activity (fisher). more on this later. > >*a good example of this is 'first world' farming. the efficiency of the >model improves yearly. The size of the hidden costs and the hidden externalisations increases yearly. >but the market remains flat, and subsidies increase >as efficiency increases just to keep the wheels turning. the small >subsistence farmer does not have subsidies of any sort. as a matter of fact >he often has to face subsidized outside competition. > >*you can become the world's most efficient farmer, but if the market's >demand is elastic, your income will not improve accordingly. as you produce >more, market prices will either remain stagnant, or go down. a good example >of this are present palm oil prices. > > >*folks, i wish we'd get REAL on this. You should get real Dick, all your definitions are skewed - "efficiency"? Markets? Income? >there's ~ one thousand million > >subsistence farming operations going on in this planet, and none of them >has > >a tractor, or anything else that runs on biodiesel, cocokero, or whatever. > >Nonsense. Subsistence farms and subsistence farming communities run >through just about the full range of energy profiles - from sweat and >that's it all the way through every possible shade and combination to >diesel generators etc etc. > >*yes, of course. the definitions are so elastic that they can be made to fit >almost any model. Not talking about definitions and models or forcing them to fit anything, I was describing what exists - what I've found at ground level, confirmed by many other investigators. >but as i mentioned ut supra, i only mean to examine the >situation of the bottom dwellers in the pyramid, who also happen to be the >most numerous. > >Improving local energy options at any of these levels (except the economic >vacuum cleaner at the top) can have a very positive ripple effect. > >*will making biodiesel, requiring at least two 'foreign' inputs, reduce >present deforestat
Re: [biofuel] We don't need no stinking efficiency!!!! (?)
"Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>My wife is studying for a master in Sustainable Agriculture, I'm a little
>selective in what I read on the subject and so we often argue about such
>matters.
>I tutor OS students in critical reading (many are trained to believe
>everything that they read and suffer real trauma when presented with varying
>opinions in a lit. review) so I discard papers that do not have a stand
>alone logical development that fits the pattern I use for students.
>(I wouldn't read much of my own ravings)
Are you sure that's why you don't read things? I'm very sceptical.
>Do you seriously believe that alternative agriculture can match the
>production of the industrialised systems and then increase production to
>meet increasing global demand? ( I allow the same level of subsidy that you
>demonstrate for the Brits).
No need for subsidies. I think I gave you these before, but maybe
they didn't stand up to your critical reading criteria:
One 15-year study found that organic farming is not only kinder to
the environment than "conventional", intensive agriculture but has
comparable yields of both products and profits. The study showed that
yields of organic maize are identical to yields of maize grown with
fertilisers and pesticides, while soil quality in the organic fields
dramatically improves. (Drinkwater, L.E., Wagoner, P. & Sarrantonio,
M. Legume-based cropping systems have reduced carbon and nitrogen
losses. Nature 396, 262-265.)
A Rodale study found that organic farm yields equal factory farm
yields after four years using organic techniques.
"In the USA, for example, the top quarter sustainable agriculture
farmers now have higher yields than conventional farmers, as well as
a much lower negative impact on the environment," says Jules Pretty,
Director of the Centre for Environment and Society at the University
of Essex ("Feeding the world?", SPLICE, August/September 1998, Volume
4 Issue 6).
http://members.tripod.com/~ngin/article2.htm
"The truth, so effectively suppressed that it is now almost
impossible to believe, is that organic farming is the key to feeding
the world." -- The Guardian, August 24, 2000
http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4054683,00.html
"Organic farming can 'feed the world'" -- BBC Science, September 14, 1999
http://www.purefood.org/Organic/orgfeedworld.cfm
"Feeding the world?" Quietly, slowly and very significantly,
sustainable agriculture is sweeping the farming systems of the world.
http://members.tripod.com/~ngin/article2.htm
>Note that I once held the view that a series of "natural" population crashes
>should be allowed to reduce human population to a level from which we could
>"rebuild" sustainably. Without the ongoing "green revolution" this may have
>happened, but there was always going to be a maximum population size beyond
>which the ecological damage associated with population crashes could be
>tolerated.
Yeah, well, we've been through all that before, at least once, but
you take no notice and trundle it all out all over again. That's why
I'm not continuing with this any longer beyond this. I'd change what
your students wrote: "It's useless arguing with Harry because he
doesn't hear anything that disagrees with him." Do you seriously
believe that the Green Revolution helps feed people instead of
starves them, helps to sustain the environment rather than ruining
it? Who've you been reading, Normal Borlaug or the World Bank?
You talk of land shortages? - Australia could support the same
population as China or India. So could the US, or Argentina.
http://soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010122king/ffcc.html
F. H. King: Farmers of Forty Centuries
Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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Re: [biofuel] economy of scale Re: Digest # 491 + ethanol pricing.
"Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I don't want to get in this loop, far too entertaining, but: In Queensland's >brigalow (nitrogen fixer)belt Farmers clear, and burn, say 100 acres then >cultivate wheat for a couple of seasons, often to replace harvesters or >other capital equipment. After a few seasons the water retention and >fertility is such that wheat is not viable, then sheep are grazed (if wool >has any value) or the land left to regenerate. (if it can in an arid >environment) before it blows away. I would be kind if I said that the >brigalow grows back and renews the soil for another cycle but the time >factor is large. >Can we call it slash and burn when they use D9's? Don't have time to be entertaining. Your farmers are incompetent - farmers are supposed to be husbandmen, husbandry means maintenance, mainly soil fertility maintenance, whereas this is just a mining operation. If they knew what they were doing they could have their wheat and wool and mutton indefinitely, in much larger quantities and better quality. Here are some references - I doubt you check many of the the refs I provide you with (perhaps it's what you call being "selective"), since your comebacks mostly still lack the information provided, but at least the message archives will be complete, if not your information. Elliot, Robert. The Clifton Park System of Farming. London, Faber & Faber, 1943. Originally published in 1898 as Agricultural Changes, this book's thesis was broadened by Sir Albert Howard, Newman Turner, Louis Bromfield, etc. Elliot developed a system of laying down land to grass, dependent on little input but a complex mixture of deep-rooting pasture seeds. The pasture rotations would be broken after four to eight years, row crops grown until the humus levels declined to a threatening level, and then the field would be restored to grass/clover/herbal mixtures. There is a very interesting forward by Sir R. George Stapledon. Full text online: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010128elliot/010128toc.html Suitable grassland mixtures for Australian and tropical conditions have been developed. Here's an Australian system - not as good but it works: Yeomans, P.A. The Keyline Plan. Sydney: P.A. Yeomans, 1954. After only three years of experimentation with the Keyline system, Yeomans self-published this, his first of several books. In the tradition of Louis Bromfield and Plowman's Folly, it is an eye-opening look at how to help land retain all the rainfall it recieives, opening the whole soil body to root penetration and releasing the natural fertility of the land. This book became an agricultural best seller and sold out. It is still sought after by collectors. Full text online: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010125yeomans/010125toc.html Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Food vs Biodiesel production
"Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Increases in grain production by breeding, irrigation and fertiliser have >got us ahead in capacity versus demand for the time being. Further increases >are subject to diminished return on research dollars, in addition the funds >for such research, more dams, better rural roads and other regional >infrastructure are drying up because we are ahead. Oversupply will go away, >just give it a little time. You're just not listening. I can only conclude: "None so deaf..." All the factors you mention have mostly led not so much to higher production as to increased marginalisation of rural populations and to countries becoming "self-sufficient" in grain production - ie net exporters - while the tally of the hungry goes up and up and up. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] titration ph question
"kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >evaporate water when all NaCl is converted. >a thin electroplate of platinum on copper is a good all around electrode. >Only a few pennies worth of platinum used. >I think commercially they use graphite or lead-- Nickel also comes to mind. >Chemistry is an interest not a forte. I always look up before I use. See >what your books your local library has on electrochemistry. >Library at nearest university would be best and local library may have >lending arrangement with them. hot melt glue makes a good sealer for copper >fastened to whatever. Hi Kirk Come on, give us a good recipe a chemistry dumbo like me can follow. Lots of folks would be deeply grateful to you. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >-Original Message- >From: Martin Klingensmith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2001 3:28 PM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [biofuel] titration ph question > > >So.. use rock salt in a fully saturated DI water >solution and use what for electrodes? I'm thinking you >would end up with a lot of rusty mess, and how do you >extract the NaOH since it will be in the water? >Thanks >I will make it if I can make the process work :) >-Martin Klingensmith > >--- kirk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Salt (NaCl) and electricity yields sodium hydroxide > > (NaOH) and hydrogen and > > chlorine. Chlorine can be reacted with the hydrogen > > to form hydrochloric > > acid (HCl or muriatic acid) which can be sold to > > pool maintenance, plumbers, > > etc or reacted with CaCO3 (limestone or shells) to > > form calcium chloride > > which has uses as a de-icer etc. > > Why buy when it can be made so easily? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
