Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link on there with the actual transcript, and you can throw in BFC if you want to check Moore's new version. And here is another anti-Moore link corraborating the Flint incident. I don't need a source for that though,
Re: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE
Richard, Don't you think that there is something problematic with a president who sits for 7 minutes and continues to read about goats to children when bombs (or airplanes) are exploding within his country? What if those two planes had only been the first of an entire wave? Think that those wasted seven minutes could have been used in a more efficient manner? Hell. He had no way of knowing that they weren't the beginning of the end of the world. Or perhaps that's just it. With his peculiarly twisted bent on Christianity and the end times, maybe that's exactly why he wasn't pulsed in the least. Too damned bad he discounted the rest of the nation that he swore to serve in lieu of his mulling things over. In the military it's called dereliction of duty, and depending upon the severity, punishable with prison time. Can I get an Amen? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: RICHARD BOGRAD [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:40 PM Subject: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE The conversations and accusations are flying around, so I thought I would post an article I received from a humor writer which may help someone put this whole discussion in perspective. Enjoy. Dick THIS WEEK'S COLUMN: THE HOT MOVIE THAT'S BURNING BUSH Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 has already set records at the box office, treating moviegoers to a scathing attack on President Bush and his co-architects in the war on terrorism. If you hate Bush, you will absolutely love this movie, which probably explains why so many people are eager to dub the movie into Arabic. Not to mention French, Spanish, German, Russian, Mandarin, Hindi, Tonga, Swahili and (please insert your native language here). As much as I love to bash the president, I have misgivings about this movie. It's a rather one-sided presentation of facts, designed to get Americans to ask a serious question about their president, a question that has been asked countless times in other countries: How did this idiot get elected? But Bush is hardly an idiot and if you don't believe me, just ask the woman who dresses him. She will tell you that he's quite capable at what he does, leading America against the forces of evil, who are involved in all sorts of mischief these days, even producing award-winning documentaries. While Fahrenheit 9/11 is certainly compelling, it's important to ask ourselves how fair it is. For example, Moore shows us what Bush did on Sept. 11 after learning that a second plane had hit the twin towers: He continued reading a book called My Pet Goat to a group of schoolchildren for almost seven minutes. In other words, he didn't do what most Americans would expect of him in this moment of crisis: Jump out of his chair, grab a phone and say, Hey Dick, what the heck should I do? What people don't realize, however, is that the president is an expert multi-tasker. The demands of his job often dictate that he perform several tasks at once, sometimes even using both sides of his brain. In those seven minutes of seemingly casual reading, he had not only planned the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, but also determined, through a highly analytical process, what he was going to have for lunch. Moore also shows us that despite the involvement of at least 15 Saudi Arabian natives in the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush Administration allowed a number of Saudis, including the extended family of Osama bin Laden, to charter planes and leave America soon after the terrorist attacks. Of course, there is a logical explanation for this. And as soon as I find it, I will let you know. Moore and other critics of the Bush Administration seem to imply that the Saudis were allowed to leave America unquestioned. But that's not true at all. Before boarding their planes, all of them were asked the all-important question: Did you pack your bags yourself? And all of them gave the correct answer: Of course not. We have maids for that! Citing a figure from the Washington Post, Moore charges that Bush spent 42% of the first seven months of his presidency on vacation, implying that he was ill-prepared to prevent the terrorist attacks. There are two problems with this argument. First, Bush took what he calls working vacations. He didn't just sit around -- he WORKED on his golf swing. Second, the 42% figure includes weekends. Most Americans do not think of their weekends as vacations. Even when they get a Friday or Monday off, they call it a long weekend, not a short vacation. If ordinary Americans can get four weekends a month, surely the president is entitled to six or seven. But this kind of logical reasoning seems to escape Moore, perhaps because he doesn't have the intellectual capacity of President Bush. In fact, we can be reasonably certain that Moore, in his entire adulthood, has never even read My Pet Goat.
Re[2]: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE
Hallo Todd, You get both an AMEN and a Happy Happy as well. :o) Gustl Friday, 02 July, 2004, 19:43:08, you wrote: AE Richard, AE Don't you think that there is something problematic with a president who AE sits for 7 minutes and continues to read about goats to children when bombs AE (or airplanes) are exploding within his country? AE What if those two planes had only been the first of an entire wave? AE Think that those wasted seven minutes could have been used in a more AE efficient manner? AE Hell. He had no way of knowing that they weren't the beginning of the end of AE the world. AE Or perhaps that's just it. With his peculiarly twisted bent on Christianity AE and the end times, maybe that's exactly why he wasn't pulsed in the least. AE Too damned bad he discounted the rest of the nation that he swore to serve AE in lieu of his mulling things over. AE In the military it's called dereliction of duty, and depending upon the AE severity, punishable with prison time. AE Can I get an Amen? AE Todd Swearingen -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Oil Storage Tanks
Thanks for the post Gustl.They sound like farm tanks.I have no use for them myself at this time but they sound ideal for wvo.You could probably gain some BTUs by having them exposed to the sun.Maybe in a greenhouse sort of structure. Rico Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hallo Friends, I have found 4 opaque containers made of some sort of plastic material which were manufactured for the Toro lawn and garden company. They were made to hold liquid chemicals and they will hold 150 gallons of liquid (568 liter). The tanks have inlets/outlets near the bottom on each end, in the bottom in the middle of the tank and a large opening on the top with a smaller opening in the middle of that one. There is a screen inside the tank to strain out foreign objects. The tank is sort of oval or elliptical in shape, quite low, and is mounted on a metal base which allows it to set flat on the floor. There are two metal straps which hold the tank to the base. The things look ideal to me for holding oil or biodiesel or whatever. The fellow who has them wants $225 US for them. He only has 4 tanks. He will not ship them but I will for the cost of shipping plus the cost of fuel to get them to the shipping agent. I want nothing for myself. $225 plus shipping does not seem like a bad price to me but I have no experience in such matters. I am in southeastern Michigan about 45 minutes south of Ann Arbor, 1.25 hours west of Toledo, Ohio, 4.5 hours east of Chicago, and about an hour east of Angola, Indiana. The fellow who has them was going to sell them all but I have persuaded him to hold onto them until I posted to the group. He lives only a mile south of me. He is a decent fellow and told me that he bought the tanks to resell but that at $225 each he was making only a small profit. I have no reason to doubt him. He was just going to buy a couple for himself but he bought the lot for a better price. Toro no longer makes the tanks and he will be using his to carry water to his job sites. He works with concrete and thought he could sell the tanks to other concrete workers but he likes the idea of biodiesel and agreed to let me post the for sale to the list. Anyone interested can contact me offlist. [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you would live close enough to come and pick a tank up I could bring it down to my place and put it in the barn until such time as you could pick it up. Otherwise I would have to wait for him to be home and unlock the place to get them. I am going to try and get pictures of the tank tonight or tomorrow depending on when I can catch Dennis home. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] OT humor - divine retribution
You have to have a good rain every so often to wash the meadow muffins away. Rico Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To my higher Power, As I sit here at my desk, with still another flood warning flashing across my computer screen, I try hard to remember what it was like before the rain started, it has been so long. The local NPR [B/CS] station reported on June 17, that this was the wettest June in history and that this part of the world has been keeping records for 500 years. It has rained everyday since that report. This is truly enough to make one wonder what did Texas do to deserve this? I think we all know the answer, we are responsible for sticking the rest of the world with George W. Bush. Now we can argue he was a good Governor, I mean he gave us the handguns that Ann Richards' refused us, and put an end to much of the random violence we lived with. The gangs did not like the idea that John Q. Citizen just might pull a legal gun out and shoot back. After 5 years of having the legal guns, a whole 1500 people had permits to carry concealed weapons. This is not a large figure, but it sure worked. And the Bush family do lots for adult literacy programs, something we really need here in Texas. George W. followed the family footsteps on this one real well. So we had some reason for what we did. I mean, how were we suppose to know, what kind of President he was going to be? But is this any reason to try to wash Texas into the gulf? After 20 days of constant flash flood warnings and watches, we apologize. If we promise not to vote for George W., will you please stop the rain? Bright Blessings, Kim [who has nothing better to do since her farm is a mud pit] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT - Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Someone famously said, there are many people who know how to run the country, but they are all busy cutting hair or driving taxis. In the the US they are busy making films also. Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt whatsoever to discredit the arguement or the premise itself. But here are some more reputable sources, irregardless of the fact that the site I linked had a number of reference sources. http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/0422nra3.shtml And here is the link of how Moore edited hestons speech entirely and spliced the sentences to create an entirely new speech. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html He has a link on
RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states[Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore shows. Frankly, I don't know what the whole NRA bash accomplished for his argument, but his entire basis against the NRA is made up. It looks more like he has a vendetta against the NRA and wants to publish it. So, quite frankly, I don't trust the guy, or most of what he says. He has been explicitly decpetive in BFC. He has something compelling with the Iraq war, but just like most of the media, its entirely one-sided. And his theory on the Saudi connection and the plot with the Bushes to intentionally start a war is pretty weak. Its more an assertion using almost nothing. I think his smoking gun is a connection in the Carlyle group, which is a large investing firm. I don't know about you guys, but I don't know the other stockholders of the companies I invest in, much less socialize and plot to take over the world with them. I'm really anxious to see what little camera tricks he threw into this one when it comes out on DVD. Randall Sanborn -- Original message -- Look pal, speaking as one of Mike's Michigan homeboys,
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Unfortunately, the pages I gave you are very well founded and documented. They are valid, and true. You know, its really funny, I can't, off hand, think of anyone that has actually tried to discredit my argument that Moore is a lier, and that his 'documentaries' are less documentary than one-sided propaganda. The only counter-point I can think of off hand is my comment about the number of casualties. I'll leave that for now, thats more of a pro/anti-war argument. I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. I've certainly stated that I really have no position to support the current administration. Rather I think everyone is blindly accepting what this man is saying because he too doesn't like Bush. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, sure, doesn't mean you have to agree with him. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 19:29, Appal Energy wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fahrenheit 9/11
Fahrenheit 9/11, a left-sided documentary that
bashes the Bush administration's war on terrorism,
wouldn't find much of an audience in a military town.
Or so they thought.
'Fahrenheit 9/11' sets record
By Matt Leclercq
2004-06-29
http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=localStory=6429101
This has broken all of our past records, said Nasim Kuenzel,
an owner of the Cameo Art House Theatre. The movie that I thought
would make us hardly any money - I never thought it would break
all the records.
Both showings sold out Friday at the Cameo, the only theater in
Fayetteville to carry the Michael Moore film. A midnight showing
added at the last minute Friday brought in 60 more people.
Saturday and Sunday were just as busy, Kuenzel said, with nearly
1,000 tickets sold over the weekend. As many as 75 percent of
moviegoers were soldiers or military families, Kuenzel said.
Many were like Natalie Sorton. She is 25 and married to an
infantryman who served in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I want to see what my husband is fighting for, Sorton said
Monday before going into the theater with a friend, Kathy Norris.
Another military spouse had recommended the movie. While
Sorton described herself as a moderate Republican, she said
she gained respect for Moore after seeing his last documentary,
Bowling for Columbine.
In that film, Moore pestered corporations and celebrities to
take responsibility for gun violence. Sorton said she wanted
to see Moore be equally pestering to politicians who make
decisions about war.
I'm going because from what I heard about ('Fahrenheit 9/11'),
it fills in a lot of blanks, a lot of questions we've had about
the Bush administration, Sorton said.
The documentary assails President Bush's decisions surrounding
the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Moore attempts to link the
Bush family with Saudi Arabia and blame business interests as the
reason for invading Iraq. Fahrenheit 9/11 includes frank comments
from soldiers in Iraq and emotional interviews with families who
lost children in the fighting.
Almost all the crowds at the Cameo have applauded the film at
the end, with some people giving standing ovations, Kuenzel said.
Many have tears in their eyes as they leave the theater.
I think it's going to open my eyes a little, and that worries me,
Sorton said before taking her seat.
Lea Barnes, a Republican, seemed giddy as she and a friend bought
tickets Monday.
I'm not pleased at all about the way things are going with the war,
Barnes said. I trust Michael Moore. He can be out there a bit, but
he's for the common man.
Negative reactions have been few, Kuenzel said. The theater received
three calls and two letters in opposition of carrying the film, she
said. No one has protested, though some people handed out anti-war
fliers on the street Friday evening.
Nationwide ticket sales totaling $23.9 million launched the film to
the No. 1 spot over the weekend, a record for a documentary.
Twelve other theaters in North Carolina are carrying Fahrenheit 9/11,
according to the film's Web site.
Other theaters
The Varsity Theatre in Chapel Hill also sold out over the weekend,
with some patrons from the Fayetteville area, said owner Mary Jo
Stone. The publicity surrounding Disney's refusal to distribute
the film because of its political content helped ignite sales.
I think people are interested in perhaps getting a different
perspective than what they see in the news all the time, Stone said.
Since the Cameo opened in 2000, the only other movies that
approached the sales figures for Fahrenheit 9/11 were
My Big Fat Greek Wedding and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
Other theaters across the country are expected to start showing
the film in the next few weeks.
After Monday's showing, Sorton emerged with a grim face.
She said she plans to buy the film on DVD and give it to
everyone she knows.
I'm disgusted, she said. Disgusted.
The film changed her opinions on the war in Iraq by convincing
her that oil and corporate interests were behind decision-making,
she said. Worries over whether Moore would vilify soldiers were unfounded.
I don't think they portrayed them as bad, she said. I don't
think it portrayed them as not doing their jobs. It showed them
doing what they're told.
All this movie did was open my eyes a little more to what's
really going on, she said. I think this is definitely going
to have an impact on the election. I'm glad I'm a voter.
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Re: [biofuel] Fahrenheit 9/11
Michael Moore's daring film By Bill Press July 2, 2004 http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39241 If you haven't yet seen it, what are you waiting for? Check your local listings, round up the family and head out to the movies. Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 is a must-see film for all Americans: Kerry supporters, undecided voters and even devoted Bushies ö so they can see just how inept a president their man really is. Is it perfect? No. Sometimes, Michael Moore goes over the top. He can't resist the occasional cheap shot, or forcing himself front and center ö as in the scene where he tries to convince members of Congress to sign up their own kids for the war in Iraq. Funny stuff, but Moore's sidewalk shenanigans get in the way of making a serious point. Do I believe every accusation he makes against Bush? No. Even though a natural gas pipeline from the Caspian Sea across Afghanistan has long been talked about, I don't buy Moore's theory that it was the reason we went to war in Afghanistan. That war, which I supported, was motivated by the Taliban's refusal to turn over Osama bin Laden. Predictably, Bush apologists are trying to silence or smear Michael Moore. Disney refused to distribute the film. White House spokesperson Dan Bartlett said the movie was so outrageously false it's not even worth comment. A group called Citizens United is now suing to block TV commercials for the movie. And stiff shirt Bill O'Reilly compares Moore to Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels. Nonsense. Moore's no propagandist; he's a protagonist. He doesn't mask his strong differences with President Bush, especially over his ties to Saudi Arabia and his pursuit of the war in Iraq. Moore has a clear message, which he pounds home with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. Yet, despite its flaws, Fahrenheit 9/11 is a searing, blockbuster documentary that will make you laugh, cry, shake your head in disbelief ö and then run out to try and save your country. What makes Fahrenheit 9/11 so effective is that Moore dares to go where the networks fear to tread. He brings to the big screen footage we've never before seen on the little screen. In gruesome detail, for example, he shows video of Iraqi civilians who are victims of U.S. bombs, including one little boy with a badly mutilated arm. He records the agony of families whose homes were destroyed. Their grief belies the phony assurances of Donald Rumsfeld that our precision-driven weapons, aimed with humanity, never miss their target. Moore also shows President Bush at a Florida elementary school on the morning of September 11. On his way into the school, he's informed that a plane has struck the World Trade Center. A few minutes later, while Bush is sitting in front of school children, Chief of Staff Andy Card tells him the second tower has been struck. Yet Bush continues to sit there for seven long minutes, reading My Pet Goat ö while America, in Card's chilling words, is under attack. What was Bush thinking? What was he waiting for? Did he need Dick Cheney to tell him what to do? And why haven't we seen this video before? Finally, in the film's most poignant moments, Moore introduces us to a woman from Flint, Mich., whose son was killed in Iraq. Lila Lipscomb is part of an extended, patriotic American family. Her grandfather, father, uncles, brothers and daughter all served in the military ö and she's proud of them. But she believes her son died fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq. Speaking from the heart, in words more powerful than any political candidate or anti-war activist could ever invent, Lipscomb regrets our involvement in a war against a country that had never attacked America, and had never threatened to attack America. And she lays the blame squarely at the feet of George W. Bush. Question: In all the interviews of families of American troops we've seen on national television, why haven't we met one family member critical of the war in Iraq? Is Michael Moore the only one in the whole media world who could discover Lila Lipscomb or others like her? Or are networks afraid of White House retaliation? Michael Moore has done this nation a great service. He has already produced the most successful documentary ever at the box office. If crowds continue to pour in, he may also have produced the first documentary ever to decide an election. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the
Re: [biofuel] Fahrenheit 9/11
Okay. But that's last week.
The truth comes out this weekend. Three days. A national holiday. The choir
has digested.
What will the rest of the world do?
Surely will be one of those fractional thermometers of the global heartbeat.
Pray for peaceIf they don't capitulate?.Wrap 'em in duct tape
Todd Swearingen
- Original Message -
From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Fahrenheit 9/11
Fahrenheit 9/11, a left-sided documentary that
bashes the Bush administration's war on terrorism,
wouldn't find much of an audience in a military town.
Or so they thought.
'Fahrenheit 9/11' sets record
By Matt Leclercq
2004-06-29
http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=localStory=6429101
This has broken all of our past records, said Nasim Kuenzel,
an owner of the Cameo Art House Theatre. The movie that I thought
would make us hardly any money - I never thought it would break
all the records.
Both showings sold out Friday at the Cameo, the only theater in
Fayetteville to carry the Michael Moore film. A midnight showing
added at the last minute Friday brought in 60 more people.
Saturday and Sunday were just as busy, Kuenzel said, with nearly
1,000 tickets sold over the weekend. As many as 75 percent of
moviegoers were soldiers or military families, Kuenzel said.
Many were like Natalie Sorton. She is 25 and married to an
infantryman who served in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I want to see what my husband is fighting for, Sorton said
Monday before going into the theater with a friend, Kathy Norris.
Another military spouse had recommended the movie. While
Sorton described herself as a moderate Republican, she said
she gained respect for Moore after seeing his last documentary,
Bowling for Columbine.
In that film, Moore pestered corporations and celebrities to
take responsibility for gun violence. Sorton said she wanted
to see Moore be equally pestering to politicians who make
decisions about war.
I'm going because from what I heard about ('Fahrenheit 9/11'),
it fills in a lot of blanks, a lot of questions we've had about
the Bush administration, Sorton said.
The documentary assails President Bush's decisions surrounding
the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Moore attempts to link the
Bush family with Saudi Arabia and blame business interests as the
reason for invading Iraq. Fahrenheit 9/11 includes frank comments
from soldiers in Iraq and emotional interviews with families who
lost children in the fighting.
Almost all the crowds at the Cameo have applauded the film at
the end, with some people giving standing ovations, Kuenzel said.
Many have tears in their eyes as they leave the theater.
I think it's going to open my eyes a little, and that worries me,
Sorton said before taking her seat.
Lea Barnes, a Republican, seemed giddy as she and a friend bought
tickets Monday.
I'm not pleased at all about the way things are going with the war,
Barnes said. I trust Michael Moore. He can be out there a bit, but
he's for the common man.
Negative reactions have been few, Kuenzel said. The theater received
three calls and two letters in opposition of carrying the film, she
said. No one has protested, though some people handed out anti-war
fliers on the street Friday evening.
Nationwide ticket sales totaling $23.9 million launched the film to
the No. 1 spot over the weekend, a record for a documentary.
Twelve other theaters in North Carolina are carrying Fahrenheit 9/11,
according to the film's Web site.
Other theaters
The Varsity Theatre in Chapel Hill also sold out over the weekend,
with some patrons from the Fayetteville area, said owner Mary Jo
Stone. The publicity surrounding Disney's refusal to distribute
the film because of its political content helped ignite sales.
I think people are interested in perhaps getting a different
perspective than what they see in the news all the time, Stone said.
Since the Cameo opened in 2000, the only other movies that
approached the sales figures for Fahrenheit 9/11 were
My Big Fat Greek Wedding and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
Other theaters across the country are expected to start showing
the film in the next few weeks.
After Monday's showing, Sorton emerged with a grim face.
She said she plans to buy the film on DVD and give it to
everyone she knows.
I'm disgusted, she said. Disgusted.
The film changed her opinions on the war in Iraq by convincing
her that oil and corporate interests were behind decision-making,
she said. Worries over whether Moore would vilify soldiers were
unfounded.
I don't think they portrayed them as bad, she said. I don't
think it portrayed them as not doing their jobs. It showed them
doing what they're told.
All this movie did was open my eyes a little more to what's
really going on,
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. Perhaps because it's refreshing to hear from a man whose main objective is to highlight human suffering and not seek some personal gain. regards Ben _ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re[2]: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE
You get both an AMEN and a Happy Happy as well. :o) Damn!!! And I didn't even have to buy a lottery ticket to do so. No reason not to keep batting 1,000 on that score 'til I breath me last. Lottery. A tax on people who can't do the math? I know. I don't think so either. Classist? No. There has to be term for those have not had the opportunity for education to figure out those odds. Problem is that everyone knows better but even the damned doctorates are playing for the pig in the poke as if they've got a needle protruding from their arm.. Yahhh. Happy Happys all around Me - Original Message - From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Appal Energy biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 8:40 PM Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE Hallo Todd, You get both an AMEN and a Happy Happy as well. :o) Gustl Friday, 02 July, 2004, 19:43:08, you wrote: AE Richard, AE Don't you think that there is something problematic with a president who AE sits for 7 minutes and continues to read about goats to children when bombs AE (or airplanes) are exploding within his country? AE What if those two planes had only been the first of an entire wave? AE Think that those wasted seven minutes could have been used in a more AE efficient manner? AE Hell. He had no way of knowing that they weren't the beginning of the end of AE the world. AE Or perhaps that's just it. With his peculiarly twisted bent on Christianity AE and the end times, maybe that's exactly why he wasn't pulsed in the least. AE Too damned bad he discounted the rest of the nation that he swore to serve AE in lieu of his mulling things over. AE In the military it's called dereliction of duty, and depending upon the AE severity, punishable with prison time. AE Can I get an Amen? AE Todd Swearingen -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Sump Oil as fuel.
Hi guys, My dad has a farm and as such ends up with a lot of waste sump oil. He has heard of a process were he can filter it and then mix it with his usual diesel and burn it as fuel for the tractors and stuff. Does anyone here know about this or could point me in the right direction on where to look. I have done a lot of searches and cant seem to find much. Thanks. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Actually, it was the world according to Doonesbury It's too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are too busy back packing. Circa 1984 Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Sam ddd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Someone famously said, there are many people who know how to run the country, but they are all busy cutting hair or driving taxis. In the the US they are busy making films also. Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. I'll readily admit that there are some seriously flawed pieces on that site, but if you look through the two examples I mentioned you'll see a few perfect examples of disinformation. The pictures were the important part on those specific pages and for the most part the write up is spot on. I'll give Moore credit, he is one of the best I've seen at using facts to lie. wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. They aren't falsehoods, if you look at the quote I dropped in from Michael Moore he actually admitted to at least one of those incidents and the rest are very well documented. He's doesn't make documentaries, he makes political propaganda. I don't have a problem with political propaganda even, just as long as its honest and presented as such. He lies, and presents his work as documentary which it isn't. I'm sitting here reading numerous posts of people saying this is the best thing they've seen, etc, and I'd simply like them to at the very least exercise a little more judgment. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 11:10, Appal Energy wrote: Mr. Sanborn, Let's try a little honesty for a moment. I know that it might pain you. But give it a go just once. First of all, yes, you're correct. I do make point of discredit[ing] the source[s], especially when the sources you use are ripe with error. Second, when a person utilizes sources chucked full of error and disinformation as their foundation for argument, there is essentially no argument and no point or purpose in going 'round and 'round the mulberry bush as you would apparently like effect. Third, based upon the sources that you draw your information from, it is rather apparent that you're either an aspiring disinformatinalist or someone who siimply enjoys creating an atmosphere of argument. Fourth, in light of that, I'm afraid that you presume far too much in your expectancy that everyone (or anyone) drop everything that they're doing, wrestle precious hours away from far more productive endeavors, all to rehash erroneous allegations and falsehoods of intentional foundation. To what end? Certainly not in search of any truth. Or if so, only the truth as you care to interpret it. Do you really think that a book such as Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that tell them, A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right would have made it out of the batter's box if it was as full of liable and untruths as your sources claim? And in all honesty, anyone who deliberately assesses judgement on a present issue and/or film based upon an unrelated past issue is someone who is far more set upon a distorted conclusion than upon any conclusion predicated upon reality. Come to think of it, that practice is exactly what you're accusing another of. One can only presume, based upon your operating on such a double standard, that the rules that you would care to apply to others simply don't apply to you? Perahaps now you can see why you are so easily discounted? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I applaud your attempt to discredit the source rather than to make any attempt
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Chill dude..., You had your chance to complain about that move years ago. Can't you read a letterhead or banner? You want to live in the past great. But the topic is F 9/11 not picking the Colorado state flower. Tired of distraction and deception in Philly. - Original Message - From: rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states[Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated to the NRA. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/hestonrally2.htm He also uses the NRA meeting in Colorado right after the Columbine shootings as further ammo against the NRA. The video clips he shows of Heston are actually from another rally, and he fails to mention that the NRA cancelled most all of its other activities aside from the vote that by law is mandatory. I believe its a non-profit law to vote officials or something else similar. Irregardless the NRA had to have its meeting, which it did, but the NRA did nothing like what Moore shows. Frankly, I don't know what the whole NRA bash accomplished for his argument, but his entire basis against the NRA is made up. It looks more like he has a vendetta against the NRA and wants to publish it. So, quite frankly, I don't trust the guy, or most of what he says. He has been explicitly decpetive in BFC. He has something compelling with the Iraq war, but just like most of the media, its entirely one-sided. And his theory on the Saudi connection and the plot with the Bushes to intentionally start a war is pretty weak. Its more an assertion using almost nothing. I think his smoking gun is a connection in the Carlyle group, which is a large investing firm. I don't know about you guys, but I don't know the other
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Mr. Sanborn you're an ass. Your sources are rice pape, but you patter as if they are solidity. All that makes you is a propigator of lies, which, by the by, makes you completely worthless as a viable point source of reliable data. Now if you don't mind, or even if you do, you're interupting rock radio and the ole' standby Jesus is Just Alright with Me. Now surely you wouldn't want to tilt a Saturday morning worship service.. Personally? I don't really think you care about that or anything else beyond your own bent for distortion. .. As for the degree of affection for Michael Moore's efforts to which you profess cluelessness...? You really have to be one empty hearted bastard not to. Is it hereditary or simply a product of your environment? Happy Happy - Original Message - From: Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 9:46 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Fahrenheit 9/11 Unfortunately, the pages I gave you are very well founded and documented. They are valid, and true. You know, its really funny, I can't, off hand, think of anyone that has actually tried to discredit my argument that Moore is a lier, and that his 'documentaries' are less documentary than one-sided propaganda. The only counter-point I can think of off hand is my comment about the number of casualties. I'll leave that for now, thats more of a pro/anti-war argument. I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. I've certainly stated that I really have no position to support the current administration. Rather I think everyone is blindly accepting what this man is saying because he too doesn't like Bush. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, sure, doesn't mean you have to agree with him. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 19:29, Appal Energy wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Fahrenheit 9/11
$coreboard for Fahrenheit 9/11 http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=fahrenheit911.htm 02.Juli 2004 Moore's Public Service Despite its flaws, Fahrenheit 9/11 tells essential truths about leaders that should have been told by the media. By PAUL KRUGMAN http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,306856,00.html Since it opened, Fahrenheit 9/11 has been a hit in both blue and red America, even at theaters close to military bases. Last Saturday, Dale Earnhardt Jr. took his Nascar crew to see it. The film's appeal to working-class Americans, who are the true victims of George Bush's policies, should give pause to its critics, especially the nervous liberals rushing to disassociate themselves from Michael Moore. There has been much tut-tutting by pundits who complain that the movie, though it has yet to be caught in any major factual errors, uses association and innuendo to create false impressions. Many of these same pundits consider it bad form to make a big fuss about the Bush administration's use of association and innuendo to link the Iraq war to 9/11. Why hold a self-proclaimed polemicist to a higher standard than you hold the president of the United States? And for all its flaws, Fahrenheit 9/11 performs an essential service. It would be a better movie if it didn't promote a few unproven conspiracy theories, but those theories aren't the reason why millions of people who aren't die-hard Bush-haters are flocking to see it. These people see the film to learn true stories they should have heard elsewhere, but didn't. Mr. Moore may not be considered respectable, but his film is a hit because the respectable media haven't been doing their job. For example, audiences are shocked by the now-famous seven minutes, when George Bush knew the nation was under attack but continued reading My Pet Goat with a group of children. Nobody had told them that the tales of Mr. Bush's decisiveness and bravery on that day were pure fiction. Or consider the Bush family's ties to the Saudis. The film suggests that Mr. Bush and his good friend Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the ambassador known to the family as Bandar Bush, have tried to cover up the extent of Saudi involvement in terrorism. This may or may not be true. But what shocks people, I think, is the fact that nobody told them about this side of Mr. Bush's life. Mr. Bush's carefully constructed persona is that of an all-American regular guy - not like his suspiciously cosmopolitan opponent, with his patrician air. The news media have cheerfully gone along with the pretense. How many stories have you seen contrasting John Kerry's upper-crusty vacation on Nantucket with Mr. Bush's down-home time at the ranch? But the reality, revealed by Mr. Moore, is that Mr. Bush has always lived in a bubble of privilege. And his family, far from consisting of regular folks with deep roots in the heartland, is deeply enmeshed, financially and personally, with foreign elites - with the Saudis in particular. Mr. Moore's greatest strength is a real empathy with working-class Americans that most journalists lack. Having stripped away Mr. Bush's common-man mask, he uses his film to make the case, in a way statistics never could, that Mr. Bush's policies favor a narrow elite at the expense of less fortunate Americans - sometimes, indeed, at the cost of their lives. In a nation where the affluent rarely serve in the military, Mr. Moore follows Marine recruiters as they trawl the malls of depressed communities, where enlistment is the only way for young men and women to escape poverty. He shows corporate executives at a lavish conference on Iraq, nibbling on canapes and exulting over the profit opportunities, then shows the terrible price paid by the soldiers creating those opportunities. The movie's moral core is a harrowing portrait of a grieving mother who encouraged her children to join the military because it was the only way they could pay for their education, and who lost her son in a war whose justification she no longer understands. Viewers may come away from Mr. Moore's movie believing some things that probably aren't true. For example, the film talks a lot about Unocal's plans for a pipeline across Afghanistan, which I doubt had much impact on the course of the Afghan war. Someday, when the crisis of American democracy is over, I'll probably find myself berating Mr. Moore, who supported Ralph Nader in 2000, for his simplistic antiglobalization views. But not now. Fahrenheit 9/11 is a tendentious, flawed movie, but it tells essential truths about leaders who exploited a national tragedy for political gain, and the ordinary Americans who paid the price. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
The pages you've given are opinion and conjecture. I won't argue that they're not the opinion and conjecture of the people who posted them. You just can't seem to get the point that the opinion and conjecture of the right is not proof of Moore lying. You offer pages that take one little point of a film, present it totally out of context and say that is proof of lies in the entire film. This is your way of trying to discredit the information in Farenheit 9/11. Which is exactly what you claim that those who are trying to open your eyes are doing. Anyone who can point to perceived inconsistencies to try to discredit Moore in a Farenheit 9/11 thread, and then claim that others are trying to dicredit the source rather than address the issues must not think anyone on this list is very intelligent. Well, you're wrong. Those tactics may work on you, but won't on the majority of this list. You are not worth wasting any more of my time over. Unless you can post something that isn't doing exactly what you claim to be fighting against, I won't bother with you any longer. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Randall Sanborn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, the pages I gave you are very well founded and documented. They are valid, and true. You know, its really funny, I can't, off hand, think of anyone that has actually tried to discredit my argument that Moore is a lier, and that his 'documentaries' are less documentary than one-sided propaganda. The only counter-point I can think of off hand is my comment about the number of casualties. I'll leave that for now, thats more of a pro/anti-war argument. I really don't understand the force at which people are fighting for Michael Moore either. I've certainly stated that I really have no position to support the current administration. Rather I think everyone is blindly accepting what this man is saying because he too doesn't like Bush. The enemy of your enemy is your friend, sure, doesn't mean you have to agree with him. Randall Sanborn On Fri, 2004-07-02 at 19:29, Appal Energy wrote: You moved so quickly to find error with the sources that you completely disregarded the argument itself. Nah, nah, nah, nah homey. If the foundation is rotten the roof quickly collapses. Again, there is no valid argument than can be constructed on faulty data. You can try all you like, but all you'll end up doing is spending a lifetime shoring up walls and buttressing the ceilings to keep everything from caving in on you. Try firm ground for a change. It will save you and everyone boatloads of effort and grief. Happy Happy... Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
Before I let my NRA membership lapse because I did not feel that they represented me as a responsible firearm owner, I used to receive their publication which was supposed to support protection of my second ammendment rights. This publication offered reports on the studies which showed an inverse relationship between gun control and crime. They compared states like Illinois, which does have some of the toughest gun control laws in the country (and is where I was living at the time) with states like it's neighbor, Indiana, which has comparatively lax gun control (and is where I live now). They showed data on the difference in per capita gun crime, and offered this as proof of their point. What they never mentioned was the difference in population of those states. Yes, Indiana has a few people in Gary, compared to the many in Chicago. Yes, Indiana on the whole has lower per capita gun crime than Illinois. Case proven, right? Wrong! If you compare the population of Gary with a similar population on the South Side of Chicago, demographically and geographically matched, guess which one has the higher per capita gun crime? You guessed it, Gary, Indiana. Lax gun laws and all. Who would have thunk? Actually, anyone that looks beyond the NRA propoganda for the truth. Gun regulation in Illinois, Michigan, New York, California, etc. is a response to the gun related crime in the major metropolitan areas of those states. And, it is working, despite the distortions of statistics provided by the NRA. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, rico suavae [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would have to agree with you.I've lived in several states both with strict and lax firearm purchase laws.Even in the most lax states [Florida,Lousiana,Texas]they observed all the paperwork and waiting periods. What I did note was there was an inverse raito between the states that severly restrict gun ownership[Michigan,Illnois]and crime.While this is only my personal experince there has been data published that bears this out. Mr.Moore is in business.In order to sell your product,it must be fresh and exciting.He does not sell sex.What he sells he sells well.However not as well as he used to,in my opnion.Before,he had truthto sell,now he only has inuendo. Rico [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also from Michigan, doesn't mean I blindly accept the opinion of everyone who speaks here. The facts are true. Michael Moore is meticulous in making sure he doesn't say anything that is explicitly false. Instead, he uses cheap camera tricks and clever sequences to give a very clear picture of what he is trying to say without ever actually implicating himself. Just a few examples from Bowling from Columbine because its been thoroughly analyzed numerous times. Firstly, the gun from the bank. http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowlingforcolumbine/scenes/bank.htm He edits the seen to make it appear like he walked in wrote his name down and got a gun. This is supposed to show how easy it is to get a gun. This is a horrible example because the same process is used here as any gun shop would use. He neglects to show the fact that the clerk then took his ID and ran it through I believe its an FBI? database. But it certainly looks like America is handing out guns to anyone. If I remember correctly from read the process actually took closer to an hour and a half. Weak example yes, but none-the-less if shown honestly it would do nothing to promote Moore's arguement that any old fool can get a gun in the way he described. The requirements for getting that gun from the bank were just as stringent as getting it from any other registered gun shop. If he wants to analyze that, then fine, I support it. Maybe it is too easy to get a gun, I'm not here to offer an opinion on it, but the bank scene is only an example of the same process that would happen in any other legal weapon transaction. I think the NRA bashes are more incriminating of Moore's deceptive style. He spends quite a while dehumanizing the NRA and especially Mr. Heston. I had a very good friend see this movie and tell me Heston and the NRA were a bunch of jerks for jumping up to hold rallies right after the killings in Flint and Columbine. I must say, the 'evidence' in the movie was compelling. But some other people slowed down the feeds and picked through the internet. The 'rally' in Flint wasn't actually a Rally, Heston showed up to support Bush on his campaign, and it was 7 months after the incident. The movie shows a headline that says, 48 hours after Kayla Rolland is pronounced dead either right before or right after the Heston clip. It insinuates the meeting was 48 hours after, and there is no way its not intentional. But the headline continues on to say something about Clinton making a statement about the incident and is completely unrelated
[biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE
I know that I will be slammed as a conspiracy theorist here, but has anyone else ever considered that the reason that Bush didn't respond more aggressively was that the news wasn't news to him. His popularity rating did go WAY up after 9/11. Do I think he's psychopathic enough for that? Yes, I do. And that's the scariest thought of all. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, Don't you think that there is something problematic with a president who sits for 7 minutes and continues to read about goats to children when bombs (or airplanes) are exploding within his country? What if those two planes had only been the first of an entire wave? Think that those wasted seven minutes could have been used in a more efficient manner? Hell. He had no way of knowing that they weren't the beginning of the end of the world. Or perhaps that's just it. With his peculiarly twisted bent on Christianity and the end times, maybe that's exactly why he wasn't pulsed in the least. Too damned bad he discounted the rest of the nation that he swore to serve in lieu of his mulling things over. In the military it's called dereliction of duty, and depending upon the severity, punishable with prison time. Can I get an Amen? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: RICHARD BOGRAD [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:40 PM Subject: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE The conversations and accusations are flying around, so I thought I would post an article I received from a humor writer which may help someone put this whole discussion in perspective. Enjoy. Dick THIS WEEK'S COLUMN: THE HOT MOVIE THAT'S BURNING BUSH Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 has already set records at the box office, treating moviegoers to a scathing attack on President Bush and his co-architects in the war on terrorism. If you hate Bush, you will absolutely love this movie, which probably explains why so many people are eager to dub the movie into Arabic. Not to mention French, Spanish, German, Russian, Mandarin, Hindi, Tonga, Swahili and (please insert your native language here). As much as I love to bash the president, I have misgivings about this movie. It's a rather one-sided presentation of facts, designed to get Americans to ask a serious question about their president, a question that has been asked countless times in other countries: How did this idiot get elected? But Bush is hardly an idiot and if you don't believe me, just ask the woman who dresses him. She will tell you that he's quite capable at what he does, leading America against the forces of evil, who are involved in all sorts of mischief these days, even producing award-winning documentaries. While Fahrenheit 9/11 is certainly compelling, it's important to ask ourselves how fair it is. For example, Moore shows us what Bush did on Sept. 11 after learning that a second plane had hit the twin towers: He continued reading a book called My Pet Goat to a group of schoolchildren for almost seven minutes. In other words, he didn't do what most Americans would expect of him in this moment of crisis: Jump out of his chair, grab a phone and say, Hey Dick, what the heck should I do? What people don't realize, however, is that the president is an expert multi-tasker. The demands of his job often dictate that he perform several tasks at once, sometimes even using both sides of his brain. In those seven minutes of seemingly casual reading, he had not only planned the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, but also determined, through a highly analytical process, what he was going to have for lunch. Moore also shows us that despite the involvement of at least 15 Saudi Arabian natives in the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush Administration allowed a number of Saudis, including the extended family of Osama bin Laden, to charter planes and leave America soon after the terrorist attacks. Of course, there is a logical explanation for this. And as soon as I find it, I will let you know. Moore and other critics of the Bush Administration seem to imply that the Saudis were allowed to leave America unquestioned. But that's not true at all. Before boarding their planes, all of them were asked the all-important question: Did you pack your bags yourself? And all of them gave the correct answer: Of course not. We have maids for that! Citing a figure from the Washington Post, Moore charges that Bush spent 42% of the first seven months of his presidency on vacation, implying that he was ill-prepared to prevent the terrorist attacks. There are two problems with this argument. First, Bush took what he calls working vacations. He didn't just sit around -- he WORKED on his golf swing. Second, the 42% figure includes weekends.
Re: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE
- Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 17:43 Subject: Re: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE Richard, Don't you think that there is something problematic with a president who sits for 7 minutes and continues to read about goats to children when bombs (or airplanes) are exploding within his country? What if those two planes had only been the first of an entire wave? Think that those wasted seven minutes could have been used in a more efficient manner? Hell. He had no way of knowing that they weren't the beginning of the end of the world. Let's look at it from a slightly different perspective. It wasn't until he was finally on they back in Air Force One that there was confirmation that it was a deliberate attack, and not an accident as most of the country thought it was. How was he to know at the time he was reading to the children, that it was an attack upon the country, when he was first told that an A large aircraft has crashed into on of the World trade towers . If it was me, and I was told those words, I would have finished reading to the kids, then left ASAP to cover the accident from the White House. As it was his visit to the school was to be at least 1/2 an hour longer, and some sources have said that it was supposed to be a full hour longer. Remember he was in Air Force One, and flying back to Washington D.C. ( not when he was reading to the kids ), when they finally figured out it was a terrorist attack and that is why it was diverted and he spent all that time in a secret location. Remember, everyone first thought it was a freak, but, terrible accident, and under those conditions, I can understand, why he continued to read to the kids, to show the children some normalcy, and not scare the kids, by leaving in a huff, in the middle of a book he was reading. I would have done the same. Yes hindsight is 20/20, but at the time, conditions, and with the best information everyone had, everyone was operating was operating the best they could.Sure, had he 20 minutes of information or warning, that the world trade center, was the target, of mad men, at the controls of a airliners, then yes, he would have moved allot faster, but given the information he had, I don't blame him one bit for doing what he did. Like I said before, given the same information, about it being an accident, I would have done the same. Come to think of it, I did much the same, my sister called and told me about the accident, and it was another 5-10 minutes before I finished what I was doing, and then got around to turning on the TV. Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember, everyone first thought it was a freak, but, terrible accident, and under those conditions, I can understand, why he continued to read to the kids, to show the children some normalcy, and not scare the kids, by leaving in a huff, in the middle of a book he was reading. I would have done the same. Actually, I remember the morning well. I had called my wife, and she was listening to the radio. She said that a plane had just hit the WTC. Not knowing the gravity of the situation, I jokingly said something along the lines of It was probably Bush. He's going to blame it on terrorists to draw attention away from what an idiot he is. True story. When I got to work, they had the TV on. When I learned what the situation actually was, I was a little ashamed about making a joke of it. When the second plane hit, everyone where I was certainly knew it was some kind of attack. Of course, being a mental health clinic, most of the people in the waiting room were psychiatric patients. I guess you couldn't expect the president and his advisors to be able to figure it out at the same rate that they could. As for scaring the kids by leaving in a huff, someone else has already suggested that he could have just said, Kids, I have to go. There's something very important that just happened, and calmly left. I'm sure second graders would have eventually figured out what that something important was. In the meantime, they would have been disappointed but not too scared. Of course, in my kids school, they announced what had happened immediately and the kids went into the gym and auditorium where big screen TVs were brought in to follow the events. I'm thinking that's the type of thing that a lot of schools where the president wasn't calmly reading to the kids did. So, any arguments that will actually hold water? Brian Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE
- Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:30 Subject: [biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember, everyone first thought it was a freak, but, terrible accident, and under those conditions, I can understand, why he continued to read to the kids, to show the children some normalcy, and not scare the kids, by leaving in a huff, in the middle of a book he was reading. I would have done the same. So, any arguments that will actually hold water? Brian --- So you want water?Lets check the facts: 9/11 Between 8:55 - 9:00 Bush advisor Karl Rove rushes up, takes Bush aside in a corridor, and tells him about the calamity. Rove says the cause of the crash was unclear. Bush replies, What a horrible accident! Bush also suggests the pilot may have had a heart attack. [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] Dan Bartlett, White House Communications Director, also says he is there when Bush is told: [Bush] being a former pilot, had kind of the same reaction, going, was it bad weather? And I said no, apparently not. [ABC News, 9/11/02] One account explicitly says that Rove tells Bush the WTC has been hit by a large commercial airliner. Just after Bush arrives at Booker Elementary School and is briefly told of the WTC crash, he is whisked into a holding room and updated on the situation via telephone by National Security Advisor Rice. [Christian Science Monitor, 9/17/01 timeline/2001/csmonitor091701.html, Time, 9/12/01 http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,174655-1,00.html] Rice later claims, He said, what a terrible, it sounds like a terrible accident. Keep me informed. [ABC News, 9/11/02 timeline/2002/abcnews091102.html] School principal Gwen Tose-Rigell is then summoned to a room to talk with the President: He said a commercial plane has hit the World Trade Center, and we're going to go ahead and go on, we're going on to do the reading thing anyway. So he is told an aircraft has hit the WTC, and Bush like others thinks it's an accident. 9:02:54 a.m. Flight 175 hits the south tower, 2 World Trade Center. [CNN 9/17/01; NORAD 9/18/01; Washington Post 9/12/01; New York Times 9/12/01; New York Times 9/12/01 (B); Guardian 10/17/01; CNN 9/12/01; AP 8/19/02; Newsday 9/10/02; USA Today 9/3/02; USA Today 8/13/02; MSNBC 9/22/01; Washington Post 1/27/02; New York Times 9/11/02; USA Today 12/20/01] 9:03-9:06 a.m. Bush enters Sandra Kay Daniels' second-grade class for a photo-op to promote Bush's education policies. [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] Numerous reporters who travel with the president, as well as members of the local media, watch from the back of the room. [AP, 8/19/02 (D)] Altogether there about 150 people in the room, 16 of them the children in the class. He is introduced to the children and poses for a number of staged pictures. The teacher then leads the students through some reading exercises (video footage shows this lasts about three minutes). [Salon, 9/12/01 (B)] Bush later claims that while he is doing this lesson, he is thinking what he will say about the WTC crash. I was concentrating on the program at this point, thinking about what I was going to say. Obviously, I felt it was an accident. I was concerned about it, but there were no alarm bells. [Washington Times, 10/7/02] The children are just getting their books from under their seats to read a story together when Chief of Staff Andrew Card comes in to tell Bush of the second WTC crash (see (9:06 a.m.)). [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] [9:02, Washington Times, 10/8/02, 9:03, Telegraph, 12/16/01, 9:04, Daily Mail, 9/8/02, according to photographer Eric Draper, who is in the room] Note that Card comes in at the conclusion of the first half of the planned lesson, and [seizes] a pause in the reading drill to walk up to Mr. Bush's seat. [Washington Times, 10/7/02, Washington Times, 10/8/02] (9:06 a.m.) Bush is in a Booker Elementary School second-grader classroom. His chief of staff, Andrew Card, enters the room and whispers into his ear, A second plane hit the other tower, and America's under attack. [New York Times, 9/16/01 (B)] [9:05, New York Times, 9/16/01 (B), 9:05, Telegraph, 12/16/01, 9:05, Albuquerque Tribune, 9/10/02, 9:07, Washington Times, 10/8/02, ABC News reporter Ann Compton, who is in the room, says she is struck So much so that I [write] it down in my reporter's notebook, by my watch, 9:07 a.m., ABC News, 9/11/02] Intelligence expert James Bamford describes Bush's reaction: Immediately [after Card speaks to Bush] an
Re: [biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE
Brian, This is scary. My wife and I have always thought that this could be a conspiracy. Dick - Original Message - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 11:31 Subject: [biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE I know that I will be slammed as a conspiracy theorist here, but has anyone else ever considered that the reason that Bush didn't respond more aggressively was that the news wasn't news to him. His popularity rating did go WAY up after 9/11. Do I think he's psychopathic enough for that? Yes, I do. And that's the scariest thought of all. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, Don't you think that there is something problematic with a president who sits for 7 minutes and continues to read about goats to children when bombs (or airplanes) are exploding within his country? What if those two planes had only been the first of an entire wave? Think that those wasted seven minutes could have been used in a more efficient manner? Hell. He had no way of knowing that they weren't the beginning of the end of the world. Or perhaps that's just it. With his peculiarly twisted bent on Christianity and the end times, maybe that's exactly why he wasn't pulsed in the least. Too damned bad he discounted the rest of the nation that he swore to serve in lieu of his mulling things over. In the military it's called dereliction of duty, and depending upon the severity, punishable with prison time. Can I get an Amen? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: RICHARD BOGRAD [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 4:40 PM Subject: [biofuel] THE HOT MOVIE The conversations and accusations are flying around, so I thought I would post an article I received from a humor writer which may help someone put this whole discussion in perspective. Enjoy. Dick THIS WEEK'S COLUMN: THE HOT MOVIE THAT'S BURNING BUSH Michael Moore's documentary Fahrenheit 9/11 has already set records at the box office, treating moviegoers to a scathing attack on President Bush and his co-architects in the war on terrorism. If you hate Bush, you will absolutely love this movie, which probably explains why so many people are eager to dub the movie into Arabic. Not to mention French, Spanish, German, Russian, Mandarin, Hindi, Tonga, Swahili and (please insert your native language here). As much as I love to bash the president, I have misgivings about this movie. It's a rather one-sided presentation of facts, designed to get Americans to ask a serious question about their president, a question that has been asked countless times in other countries: How did this idiot get elected? But Bush is hardly an idiot and if you don't believe me, just ask the woman who dresses him. She will tell you that he's quite capable at what he does, leading America against the forces of evil, who are involved in all sorts of mischief these days, even producing award-winning documentaries. While Fahrenheit 9/11 is certainly compelling, it's important to ask ourselves how fair it is. For example, Moore shows us what Bush did on Sept. 11 after learning that a second plane had hit the twin towers: He continued reading a book called My Pet Goat to a group of schoolchildren for almost seven minutes. In other words, he didn't do what most Americans would expect of him in this moment of crisis: Jump out of his chair, grab a phone and say, Hey Dick, what the heck should I do? What people don't realize, however, is that the president is an expert multi-tasker. The demands of his job often dictate that he perform several tasks at once, sometimes even using both sides of his brain. In those seven minutes of seemingly casual reading, he had not only planned the wars on Afghanistan and Iraq, but also determined, through a highly analytical process, what he was going to have for lunch. Moore also shows us that despite the involvement of at least 15 Saudi Arabian natives in the Sept. 11 attacks, the Bush Administration allowed a number of Saudis, including the extended family of Osama bin Laden, to charter planes and leave America soon after the terrorist attacks. Of course, there is a logical explanation for this. And as soon as I find it, I will let you know. Moore and other critics of the Bush Administration seem to imply that the Saudis were allowed to leave America unquestioned. But that's not true at all. Before boarding their planes, all of them were asked the all-important question: Did you pack your bags yourself? And all of them gave the correct answer: Of course not. We have maids for that! Citing a figure from the Washington Post,
[biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE
I'm confused. Were you trying to prove that Bush did nothing while the country was under attack? That seems to be the point of the stuff you posted. Also, being a former pilot, Bush would have known that there is a co- pilot and enough safeguards in a commercial airliner that a pilot having a heart attack wouldn't result in a plane crashing into a building. I know nothing about planes, and I know that. Again, do you have any arguments that will hold water which would show that Bush is anything but an incompetent idiot? Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 12:30 Subject: [biofuel] Re: THE HOT MOVIE --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Greg Harbican [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remember, everyone first thought it was a freak, but, terrible accident, and under those conditions, I can understand, why he continued to read to the kids, to show the children some normalcy, and not scare the kids, by leaving in a huff, in the middle of a book he was reading. I would have done the same. So, any arguments that will actually hold water? Brian --- So you want water?Lets check the facts: 9/11 Between 8:55 - 9:00 Bush advisor Karl Rove rushes up, takes Bush aside in a corridor, and tells him about the calamity. Rove says the cause of the crash was unclear. Bush replies, What a horrible accident! Bush also suggests the pilot may have had a heart attack. [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] Dan Bartlett, White House Communications Director, also says he is there when Bush is told: [Bush] being a former pilot, had kind of the same reaction, going, was it bad weather? And I said no, apparently not. [ABC News, 9/11/02] One account explicitly says that Rove tells Bush the WTC has been hit by a large commercial airliner. Just after Bush arrives at Booker Elementary School and is briefly told of the WTC crash, he is whisked into a holding room and updated on the situation via telephone by National Security Advisor Rice. [Christian Science Monitor, 9/17/01 timeline/2001/csmonitor091701.html, Time, 9/12/01 http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,174655-1,00.html] Rice later claims, He said, what a terrible, it sounds like a terrible accident. Keep me informed. [ABC News, 9/11/02 timeline/2002/abcnews091102.html] School principal Gwen Tose- Rigell is then summoned to a room to talk with the President: He said a commercial plane has hit the World Trade Center, and we're going to go ahead and go on, we're going on to do the reading thing anyway. So he is told an aircraft has hit the WTC, and Bush like others thinks it's an accident. 9:02:54 a.m. Flight 175 hits the south tower, 2 World Trade Center. [CNN 9/17/01; NORAD 9/18/01; Washington Post 9/12/01; New York Times 9/12/01; New York Times 9/12/01 (B); Guardian 10/17/01; CNN 9/12/01; AP 8/19/02; Newsday 9/10/02; USA Today 9/3/02; USA Today 8/13/02; MSNBC 9/22/01; Washington Post 1/27/02; New York Times 9/11/02; USA Today 12/20/01] 9:03-9:06 a.m. Bush enters Sandra Kay Daniels' second-grade class for a photo-op to promote Bush's education policies. [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] Numerous reporters who travel with the president, as well as members of the local media, watch from the back of the room. [AP, 8/19/02 (D)] Altogether there about 150 people in the room, 16 of them the children in the class. He is introduced to the children and poses for a number of staged pictures. The teacher then leads the students through some reading exercises (video footage shows this lasts about three minutes). [Salon, 9/12/01 (B)] Bush later claims that while he is doing this lesson, he is thinking what he will say about the WTC crash. I was concentrating on the program at this point, thinking about what I was going to say. Obviously, I felt it was an accident. I was concerned about it, but there were no alarm bells. [Washington Times, 10/7/02] The children are just getting their books from under their seats to read a story together when Chief of Staff Andrew Card comes in to tell Bush of the second WTC crash (see (9:06 a.m.)). [Daily Mail, 9/8/02] [9:02, Washington Times, 10/8/02, 9:03, Telegraph, 12/16/01, 9:04, Daily Mail, 9/8/02, according to photographer Eric Draper, who is in the room] Note that Card comes in at the conclusion of the first half of the planned lesson, and [seizes] a pause in the reading drill to walk up to Mr. Bush's seat. [Washington Times, 10/7/02, Washington Times, 10/8/02] (9:06 a.m.)
